Good Life Project - Raised by Rhythm | Ellen Harper

Episode Date: January 28, 2021

Ellen Harper has been around the folk music scene her whole life. Her mother, Dorothy Chase performed and taught banjo and guitar at Hecht House in the 1950s in Boston with Bess Lomax Hawes and her dad, Charles Chase repaired any and all instruments that came his way. Ellen learned to play, perform and teach guitar and other folk instruments at her mother’s knee and eventually, the family moved west to Claremont, California where they create the iconic Folk Music Center that became a hub for all the biggest names in folk, from Dylan to Joan Baez, Pete Seeger and so many other lesser-known, yet equally important players. Ellen’s kids grew up in that same place, surrounded by those same people and, in fact, one son Ben Harper, caught the music bug and has since become an acclaimed singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist in his own right. In 2000 Ellen participated in Ben’s documentary Pleasure and Pain filmed by iconic rock photographer, Danny Clinch, whose also been a guest on the podcast. That led to them to collaborate on an album. Childhood Home. Ellen’s latest project, Light has a Life of its Own is a collection of her original songs reflecting the unusual musical heritage that has defined and shaped several generations of Chase/Harpers. Ellen currently runs the Folk Music Center, the Claremont Folk Festival and teaches music classes, and her new memoir, Always a Song (https://amzn.to/3pBZQzi), is a wonderful journey not only through so many of the stories of her life, but also the history and world of folk music.You can find Ellen Harper at:Website : https://www.ellenharper.net/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today, Ellen Harper, has been around the folk music scene her whole life. Her mother, Dorothy Chase, performed and taught banjo and guitar at Hecht House back in the 50s in Boston with Bess Lomax-Haas and her dad, Charles Chase, repaired pretty much any and all instruments that came his way. Then Ellen learned to play and perform and teach guitar and other folk instruments at her mom's knee. And eventually, the family moved out west to Claremont, California, where they created the iconic Folk Music Center that became this hub for all of the biggest names in folk, from Dylan to Joan Baez, Pete Seeger, as well as a huge community of lesser known yet equally important players.

And Ellen's kids grew up in that same place, surrounded by those same people. And in fact, one son, Ben Harper, caught the music bug and has since become an acclaimed singer-songwriter and multi-instrumentalist in his own right. Back in 2000, Ellen participated in Ben's documentary, Pleasure and Pain, filmed by iconic rock photographer Danny Clinch, who has also been a guest on this podcast. And that led them to collaborate on an album, Childhood Home. Ellen's latest project, Light Has a Life of Its Own, is a collection of her original songs reflecting the unusual musical heritage that has really defined and

shaped several generations of Chase Harpers. Ellen currently runs the Folk Music Center, the Claremont Folk Festival, and teaches music classes. And her new memoir, Always a Song, is this wonderful journey, not only through so many of the stories of her life, but also the history and the world of folk music. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, Charge time and actual results will vary. We have a kind of a fun point of intersection. So I think it was what, 2020, you guys connected with Danny Clinch to do that documentary, Pleasure and Pain, right? Ben's first documentary yeah and danny's actually been on the

show for all of his work for decades and decades uh shooting music around the world he's really something he is yeah yeah i know he just seems to be there when the time is right you know snapping a photo and yeah he does he has that that kismet where he's just like right place right time but over and over and over and over yes exactly and you know he did the um the documentary for the album ben and i did childhood yeah yeah which was actually a lot of fun yeah no i love that one as well um you know i want to take a little bit of a step back in time. You come from a family where it seems like they're going back generations. There has been this strong commitment to advocacy and activism, sometimes rising to the level of being subversive, strongly counterculture. It sounds like going back to at least your grandma, Elba. Yes, back to Elba and Fred, for sure. And my mother's parents were socialist when they got here. You know, the Jewish coming from, well, one from near Kiev and one from Eastern Europe. And I mean, socialism was just part of the culture

in a large part before the demonization and so on. But yes, you can certainly trace it back to my grandparents, Fred and Elba. Yeah, tell me a little bit more about them, because it seems like at a time where a lot of people were sort of like the ethos was kind of keep your head down and your mouth closed, they didn't follow that at all. Well, they didn't. And for a time in this country, you could be a member of the Communist Party or the Socialist Party. My grandfather, Fred, led the Farmers' March on Washington, the New Hampshire, New England

contingent. So he was very involved in active politics. And my grandmother was right there with him. And her politics really kicked in, though, after he died. He died young. He had rheumatic heart. But she was an amazing person. She began the first birth control clinic in New Hampshire. She was a nurse. She delivered babies all over the place. And she ran for governor of New Hampshire on the Communist Party ticket, which she didn't get very many votes. But because she was always there for the neighbors and their babies, she was beloved. And when she was in jail, I don't think this part made it into the book, the jailer was so appalled at having Elba Chase in his jail that he sent his wife out for linens

and a tea set so she could have her tea. That's amazing. Yeah. And it seemed like that, you know, that ethos that you develop a strong set of beliefs and you stand behind them and you do that in a public way has really just continued on through the generations. I mean, with, you know, your dad ends up in a really interesting place as well earlier in the early years. He certainly does, yeah, with getting fired. It was a very dramatic time, very impactful time. And of course, I'm seeing this activism, communism from a seven-year-old's view and how it affected us personally as a family. And I'm not sure, you know, the conventional narrative, if you want to call it that, has hidden the Communist Party and what they stood for and what they were,

Socialist Party, people of color, underrepresented people. It's not in our textbooks. And if we're lucky, maybe we'll get a taste of it, you know, labor history as well in college if we're lucky, maybe we'll get a taste of it. You know, labor history as well in college if we get there. So it's a benighted attitude and a demonization and marginalization that worked very, very well for the time. And I think we see strains of it today, actually, with the words and the names. Yeah, we are in this interesting moment.

So your dad was, I guess he was teaching, but because of prior associations, more closely aligned and publicly aligned with the Communist Party, I guess in the 30s-ish. Yes, exactly. When McCarthyism starts to hit this country, he starts to become a target. And like so many others, that season becomes blacklisted, which effectively ends his ability to work. Ends his ability to earn money, yes. He was hired at a garden shop because Grossman was very smart. They knew they could pick up these people that had no other options and pay them nothing, and they were hard workers,

and you could count on them. But sometimes I think of that time with my father and what he stood for and his ideals and his principles. But if he, for instance, if his ideals and principles were such that he supported war and he supported a biased curriculum and he supported racial and cultural misunderstandings and supported a corrupt school board, he would have kept his job until he retired, which I've always thought it was an interesting perspective to take on what was happening. Yeah. As you mentioned, you were single digits in age when all this was happening, like six, seven, eight years old. I know upon reflection and upon conversation, it's become much clearer. I'm curious whether when you were actually at that age, whether you remember if you, how aware were you of the truth of what was really happening

around you? Well, I know in that intellectual part of the brain, you know, my parents would explain it, but seven, even eight is a little young to comprehend that. Because what I comprehended was that nobody liked me. I had no more friends. I couldn't go to people's houses. I couldn't go to play. I couldn't go to the library. I was pretty much just at home. And school was a torture.

And that's what it meant to me at the time. Although perhaps what my parents said, particularly my father, explained how they explained it, it probably sank in in some aspect. And because of the lack of understanding that was facing me, it did make me angry. And I think sometimes the anger was better than just defeat. Yeah. I mean, that's the anger that I think so many of us draw upon in some way, shape, or form as fuel to invest energy and change, right? When it raises to a certain level. But to feel that, I think even as adults, we often struggle on how to channel that feeling, that emotion, that energy. And then when you're talking about a young child, really not yet equipped to understand what do I do with this, it can become tough.

It's tough and it stays with you. I know I still have to buck up my energy or my courage to talk about it. Just to say the word communist, communism, it's like a ping of fears that still exists. And I know, you know, I mentioned that I had done a dissertation when I interviewed these teachers who had been fired for their beliefs. It was the same thing. There was a lot of fear that just continued to live on. Yeah. And I guess the sort of ostracization that came around that time from this was not so much that people automatically saw you as bad, but I think my understanding of that time is really a lot of people were just concerned for themselves that if they were seen

as associating with somebody who was on this list, that they would be assumed just by association to be, quote, one of them and end up in that same place. And they were terrified for their own family's security. And that was a lot of, it was like, look, I like you and we resonate and have the same values that we had two days ago before this news came out. But I'm terrified about what's going to happen to my family if we stay in conversation. That's right. And that's what made McCarthyism so effective. If employers hadn't jumped on that bandwagon, if they hadn't been able to get people fired and lose their income and marginalized in the fear, it simply would not have worked. He could have called all the names

he wanted, but that's what essentially made it work, that fear. And you're absolutely right, guilt by association, fellow travelers, you could be named for no reason. And then you were stuck. If you were called, you either had to name names or you were defying the uh committee yeah you and you end up in that same place yeah so your dad ends up effectively being pushed out of his job and and like we said really hard for him to find work um at the same time your mom is pretty it sounds like pretty deeply immersed in the world of music from your youngest years you know as well yes she always was i i always remember her with a banjo and competing with the banjo, probably more competition than my sisters,

but also it just being such a part of our lives. And really, I think the salvation of the family during the hard times, you know, the music and that all of our fellow travelers, all the people that thought like us felt like us. And really, you know, that post-World War II optimism that it was going to be a world of peace and justice and equality. And, you know, we beat the fascists. And then that just disappointment just with McCarthyism.

But there was always a crew that held together. And we saw each other through. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting how music can become, it can serve so many purposes. You know, on the one hand, it's a beautiful form of creative expression. But it's also, it can be the glue that brings together and holds together community. It can say so much. It can be a form of activism, right? And it seems like really for you and as you described that the people that your family traveled with, it was all of those. It was those. Yeah. When I think about it, especially in the Boston scene, which is quite active. I mean, people came to, I think I might

have said this in the book, to my mother's classes and to the Hecht House and joined this. A lot of them joined for the music and then learned about the politics. But there were many that came for the politics and then learned about the music. But the music and the politics were hand in hand. It wasn't a separation. We sang or they sang because it brought people together and it made people feel stronger. That collective voice is very important. Yeah. And I mean, the music that we're talking about, I'm actually curious, you know, when it was really sort of first emerging, whether this, you know, the word folk music was the moniker, or whether sort of over time, people started to call it folk music. And, you know, I guess

there's a curiosity in my mind also, which is when we're talking about folk music, what are we actually talking about? Well, that question has been tossed around and beaten to death halfway by ethnomusicologists forever. And you kind of don't want to jump right in the middle of it. And I'm not an ethnomusicologist. But to me, it's just the conglomeration of all of the music, of all of the people that sang either on their porches in the homes or in the union halls or out on the picket lines or unions, civil rights. And before that, it's people sang. People sang in their parlors and they sang in the fields

and they sang in their saloons and they sang in their salons. And I think that we have to name it because nowadays we have to genreize everything in order to sell it. And so, you know, what is roots? What is Americana? What is blues? What is, you know, they all came from people singing mostly singing to just express their feelings and their troubles and uh or try to try to make life feel a little better yeah i mean it is interesting the way that we've sort of the industry says it has to be in a bucket because we don't know what to do with it or how to sell it or market or distribute it unless we can say like this is the the bucket, this is the category, this is where it gets filed. But that's all more of something that was imposed over time from a business standpoint rather than how it emerged organically. You know, my parents believed in playing music for community.

And that's what the Folk Music Center has become and is a place for community, for people can come and sing, they can come and jam. Well, it used to anyway, up until COVID. And it's not about making money and it's not about being famous. But the lines blur when we could take the Kingston Trio, for instance. Without that commercialization, who would know about a lot of this music? So it brings it to the attention. It did have its flash in the pan. It was very infated away. But it didn't go away and it didn't disappear. And it comes back. And it comes back and it comes back with oh brother we're art though which is another form of bringing forward traditional music and even if it kind of came from top down rather than bottom up yeah that is you just referenced attention that i've always been curious about, which is this tension between folk music in

particular and money and sort of, quote, making it on a bigger stage. I'm trying to remember, it may have actually been the doc that you and Ben did with Danny more recently, where he described success in the context of folk music, or the music that he plays also. And really, it was almost like it has nothing to do with success on the mainstream, with the mainstream stages, with the big labels, with popular audiences. And yet at the same time, like you said, if part of it is about building the community and also sharing the messages within the music, then it would seem like the greatest reach would make the biggest difference. And that comes almost exclusively from the more modern definition of success. Yeah. It used to be called selling out.

Yeah. Oh, he's a sellout. That's why he made it. I'm just going to sit here and busk on the corner. And there was something to be said for that, you know, but nowadays, how is a musician supposed to survive if they can't sell a jingle, if they can't, if their song doesn't get used in a commercial, doesn't get picked up by movies? I mean, that whole level of being able to support yourself with your music, there was, you know, marginally maybe.

But you could go out on a small tour to clubs, coffee houses. You could stay in people's houses. You could sell your cds your merchandise and really get get by but i don't think that's even hardly possible anymore and you can't there's no merchandise i mean you don't make anything i think i've made a seventh of a cent or something on my anything that streams yeah it is i mean the industry has really changed in um pretty substantial ways and but that tension i feel like it still hasn't entirely gone away, where there's the stay pure to what it's all about. And the other part of it is not just to spread the word and have the music go far and wide, but also it's the economics of being able to do this as you're living, you know, which is, well, what if, what if you really want to make this your thing?

You kind of have to push to get to a place where, um, you know, you're doing okay, which is, yeah. Or keep a super low overhead, you know, stay in your parents' basement or something, because you're going to have to make a choice somehow. Either keep a low overhead or make a lot of money if you want to live more luxuriously. Yeah, which I think is, you know, an easier decision to make when you're younger. But then when you're in your 30s, 40s, 50s, if you have a partner in life and a family and, know the decisions aren't just about you anymore i think it's the place that so many musicians find themselves in you know which is like this is the thing i feel i'm here to do and yet you know there are these other values that really matter to me and it's just this attention that i think doesn't leave a lot of people you know it is it's for sure it's it's that tension is there and we certainly see it. And

a lot of people make the choice to, to have music as more of a hobby, you know, and that's fine too. And a lot of people may come to terms with it. You know, you talk to people that have made it, you know, at some point in time and are now older, and they're just going around playing music and enjoying the heck out of it. Some people do become bitter, like, why me? Why didn't I make it? Look, I'm good. And they have every reason to think so. I mean, fabulous players, singers, songwriters that didn't make the money.

It's not a fair business by any means. But yes, you're right, the tension, commercial versus community or tradition, I guess I'm not sure what you might want to call that. But it does live on here. I mean, people before, you know, everything was shut down for singing. We had concerts and street music and lots and lots going on. Yeah, that's amazing. So you, when your family was really struggling and your dad was struggling to work, I know he also started, he kind of found his way into the music side of things also. I guess buying old banjos, refurbishing them, and then selling them in part to your mom's students. And at some point, it feels like even so, where they are, it's just going to be too hard to try and make a go of it.

So the whole family picks up and moves, I guess, first out to LA and then eventually, you know, 30, 40 miles inland from there to the Claremont area, where it's kind of interesting because if you think about that time, which I guess would have been the mid fifties, the idea of sort of moving first to LA and then moving to a relatively small area, even though they're, you know, it's the Claremont Consortium area where there are a bunch of small colleges there, to bring together a community of folk music players, it seems a little bit out there. Well, my father did have a lot of faith in him.

I mean, the rug was pulled out from under him, which was a shocking thing for people that are competent and capable and accomplished. But he always that he would need a fresh start. You know, New England was just not going to make a home for him, especially with the New Hampshire family and his mother and all that. It just didn't feel, and this was by 1957, it just didn't feel like it was going away. And, you know, California, the land of milk and honey, you know. So he picked up and we moved. And he knew that he had to have a job. He did get himself back into teaching and he was a really good teacher. And I know this from tuning him out from a very young age. As all good kids do.

But I watched him. I watched him teach so many people how to fix instruments and have I learned in taking it off to the world. My mother taught them to play the instruments, took it off out into the big world. My mother taught them to play the instruments, took it off out into the big world. But it was just something they believed they could do. But he did start it as a sideline. He had an income coming in. My grandfather, Yudin, my mother's father, retired. They moved out. And he ran the shop and didn't really need money. So it could run for nothing for a while. But it caught on like a wildfire.

It was amazing. And it was the times. And everything came together to work out for the best for the store. Yeah, I mean, this becomes Folk Music Center, which really becomes this incredible hub, not just for the Claremont musical community, but for kind of like the world, the world of folk, like all the major players, this becomes, it sounds like really a magnet where this is where everyone kind of comes through and comes by and stays and plays. Yes. And it worked out.

Ed Pearl would bring people from the Ash Grove. The Ash Grove was a very famous Southern California venue. And with the addition of the Folk Music Center and the addition of the Penny University out in Riverside, San Bernardino, it became a little mini tour so people could afford to come out. And like I said, they stayed in our house. And my mother, being a fabulous cook, was just that much more reason to come and stay. And it was a different feeling in time. I mean, these people were well-known,

and they were well-known on the college circuits and the festival circuits, but it's not like being well-known now. They weren't wealthy and celebrities across many groups. It was still a folk music audience yeah and i mean we're i guess we're talking about people like uh like pete seger uh dylan john baez well they're maybe a little different i was thinking brownie and sonny right right but i mean back then i mean they were they were definitely big names in in the world too but yeah when you think about some of the way that people approach celebrity right now, it feels like it's celebrity very often without soul, without heart, and without grounding and values. I wonder what your thoughts are on that.

Well, a celebrity is its own thing. And of course, Ben came out of this background and he's a celebrity and he's well known internationally. And it was something my parents had to come to accept and they did, of course. And he's kept his feet on the ground. But people say, oh my gosh, you must be so proud. Oh, were you surprised? This is so wonderful. But the fact that he's made it in music doesn't surprise me at all. It seems very natural. He grew up in it. He's lived it. And he's a musician and he's a poet and comes from a long line of poets and musicians. But the celebrity was its own thing. And that takes some getting used to. You know, it's just that people want it.

They want to be near it. They want a piece of it. They want somehow to have it shine its warmth on them. And it's a little difficult to deal with sometimes, but we've learned, his brothers and I have all learned, to just smile and keep moving. But you're right. We're obsessed with it nowadays.

I don't know if it's global or American, but there is an obsession with celebrity. rather than the notoriety coming from some great work that you've done, art that you have toiled and for decades created and developed in skill and craft and offered to the world, so that the notoriety comes from the work that you're doing and the effect that it has, rather than simply the mad quest to be known by as many people as humanly possible. I feel like that's a really, it's a different thing. It is a different thing. You're right. To have earned it, to pay your dues.

And I know having, I had that conversation with Ben, with Joel and Peter, my other sons. You know, you do it because you love it. You don't do this because you want to be famous. you do it because you love it. You don't do this because you want to be famous. You know, first you love it. And then, you know, if you pursue it, you might get the fame. But, you know, when people come to me sometimes and how did you raise such artistic children? It's like, well, don't eat, don't try, you know, you know, be sure that's what you want to do. But I guess it was just all around them. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like the same way that Folk Music Center really became a second home for you, maybe even more of a first home, because it sounds like that was the place

where you spent pretty much all of your free time as well as most of the family. And for you, I guess you start to pick up an instrument in your mid-teens. Yeah. Early teens, probably 13-ish, 14-ish is when I really applied myself. Yeah. I mean, for you, was it something where you picked it up and you kind of said, this is what I want to do? Or was it just the type of thing where it's all around you all day, every day? There's so much access. It was sort of like a slow, organic thing where it just felt good without any intention beyond that. Yeah, it was curious.

It was obvious how much people enjoyed music. I just picked it up and started playing, eavesdropping on my mother's classes. She taught her guitar classes in the house, and I'd pick up my guitar and play along. And it turns out to be rewarding in my case. And, you know, if something feels good, of course, you want more. And so I just stayed with it and kept on playing. I, you know, played on and off forever.

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The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Sounds like you started playing around with different groups and also different genres. I know there was a, sounds like a short amount of time in a little bit of country. Oh, yes.

Well, actually, I love the country music back in the 70s, early country. There's nothing like it. It's people with hard lives telling you about it, you know? And that's the blues, and that's country, and a lot of lullabies are the same, you know, plaintive and hard times and lost loves and hurts and joys. And yeah, I do, I still enjoy listening to the country, old country music. It's changed enormously, of course. Yeah, for sure.

It's all kind of pop. I'm curious, what do you think it is about that particular storyline, whether it's blues, whether it's country, whether it's reggae, regardless of where it comes out of? It is kind of interesting that that storyline of sharing hard times persists to this day. And that you would think, well, people just want to hear music that lifts them up. But there's something about that story that makes us keep wanting to hear it in a thousand different ways from a thousand different voices. Oh, yeah. I mean, if you're hurting for whatever reason, you don't want to hear joyful music.

You want something that shares your pain, I think. And you can find it. That's what people sing. And probably have sung about it for thousands of years in whatever culture they came from. I mean, there are fun songs and joyous songs and uplifting songs. But how many times is that what you look for when you're wanting to hear some music? Yeah, I think sometimes it's commiseration, right? It's the energy we're looking for from the music.

Or maybe even something that pushes us to the point that allows us to just really just get lost in the feelings, whether it pushes us to just sob. If we're on the edge of that, maybe it's that thing that pushes us to actually fully embrace the way we're feeling and release it to a certain extent. Yes. And it's empathy.

Clearly, somebody else has felt like this at another point in time. And they're telling me about it. Yeah. So I'm not alone in what I'm going through. Mm-hmm. Yeah. You end up playing around. As you're reaching your late teens, in your mind, is being a musician or as a central devotion, is that something that you want to do? Is that

the aspiration for you? I'm not sure I ever really knew what I wanted to do. I just kind of fell into whatever came my way. Playing the guitar. Okay. I'll pick up a little banjo here and there maybe. And I'll play when it comes along. I don't sure, you know, you think about being a star and being in center stage and all these people that love you, but you also have to have the desire to do something other than just play music. I mean, you have to want to put yourself out there and take what you get from, you know, good and bad and be able to handle it. And I don't know that I had the drive to become a famous person. And I wasn't that sold on being famous anyway. I'd seen it and I didn't always look that appealing. And being, I suppose, an introvert and liking time alone,

it just seemed like, wow, you've got to deal with all these people all the time. Yeah. That's another curiosity, actually. I'm wired similarly to you on what my friend would call selectively social, which is a very kind way of putting it. I might have to borrow that. Well, I borrowed it, so we'll just sort of continue the chain of sharing. Great artists steal, right? That's right. So, yeah, I have been really curious about this also, this other potential dynamic between people who are fairly sensitive, fairly quiet, fairly introverted, and yet at the same time have this deep desire to not just create but perform, be in community with others. And when you do that and you offer something that really deeply moves others, then there's often a desire back to really participate in your life more and more and more and more. And that had to be a really interesting dynamic for you.

Yes. There are plenty of introverts that are musicians and famous. And I don't know that that red carpet-ish kind of thing or the meet and greets, I don't know if that ever gets easier. I just think it's something you learn to do. If you want to further your ability to project yourself in that way from the stage, you have to learn to deal with that. And it becomes part of the job, I think, I would think uh learning how to be up and to be on and to be friendly you know it's it's a necessary part yeah that success till you reach a certain level like you know van morrison or something where you can just you know turn your back and then you have your people and have your people yeah um you have your people, yeah. You know, we've been talking a lot about sort of like the forward-facing side of music also.

And while folks can't see this, you know, I'm looking at you and in your background, it kind of looks like you're in a luthier's workshop. Yeah, I am. I'm in the back of the store in the workshop. Yeah. Because it sounds like that's a part of you as well, is not just the playing side, but a love of the instruments themselves and really deepening into working with them and understanding them. for a long time and shared his knowledge with me. And I do, I loved it. I like that, working with my hands and really being involved with the instruments themselves. I didn't stay with it.

I guess there's enough of a draw, you know, to the social, to the light, to the, you know, the shop doesn't have windows. And, but I don't know. And I've also had a kind of torn between the music and academia. I was a student who got by doing as little as possible through high school and college. But when I went back to school as an adult, I liked it. I liked that world. So, you know, like I say, I haven't had had a direct path a direct shot to any direction but but i am i am sitting in the luther shop and there's a you can see there's a there there are

some gorgeous looking instruments behind you yeah some of them i staged just so you wouldn't see a little bit of the mess that was on the it's either clean up the mess or, but yeah. Well done with the staging. Definitely caught my eye. I had this beautiful experience, I guess it was close to three years ago now, where I actually spent the better part of a month working with a luthier out and around Amish country in Pennsylvania to build an acoustic guitar myself. And it was one of the most immersive and rewarding experiences I've ever had in my life, just to sit there, working 13-hour days with a short break for lunch. But it felt like I blinked and the day was over, just completely lost in the process of working

with your hands. I think there's something kind of magical about that. And it's also the creativity. When that happened, I mean, that's such a wonderful feeling. I get that feeling when I'm writing a song or when I was writing the book or I write lots of stories, family stories and so on. It's like you lose track of time, you know, and that's when you're really that creative energy kicks in. And it's, I mean, the fellow here at the Claremont Grad School who studied it calls it being in the flow. And that's what it is. And you actually get annoyed when you're interrupted. I have felt that too. Yeah. What did my father, he used to say something like,

genius is everywhere. There are a lot of geniuses, but if you can be a genius with constant interruptions, then you really are a genius. Well, I still haven't figured that part out at all. So, um, so as you know, you're sort of, you're moving through life, you end up also then married, you have three kids. Um, and, and it sounds like this was a really, it was an inflection point for you also, because you knew the life of a musician and touring and being on the road and sometimes instability. And it sounds like you sort of made the call and said, even though this is in me, at least for this season, I need to make a different choice.

Yes, that's true. I did. I made a very conscientious choice, you know, really weighing, you know, what makes me happier. You know, I love to play the music. I love being out there. But if my kids are miserable, that's worse than the pleasure from that. You know, it was a balance. And it was probably an okay choice. I don't, I don't regret it. I don't know, you know, with kids, they, how they would feel. I mean, they probably would have, I might as well have pursued my career. I don't know, you know, kids grow up and go, but,

but I do think that it was the right choice for their time, for me, for them, for what was happening. Yeah. And I mean, it's also not that you entirely walked away from the world and the culture and the community of music. I mean, it remained a part of your life and then it remained a really big part of your kids' life as you were bringing them up you know it sounds like they pretty much i've heard ben describe you know him almost using the same words as you saying like effectively i grew up um and folk music center like that was my home they did they'd come in after school and plop down and supposedly do their homework and and snack and just partake i mean, they were just part of it. I was working with parents, so they just had to be part of that scene. They just, you know, it wasn't,

the focus wasn't necessarily on them. They were part of this living thing that was going on. And it sounds like it created just a really beautiful oasis. You know, one of my curiosities also I know is as you're raising a family, not too far into this experience, you end up a single mom raising three boys. And you're also in a town which is, from my understanding, predominantly white. You're a white Jewish woman raising three biracial kids. Tell me about this experience. Yes, I met and married Leonard,

African-American. He played congas and really a brilliant man. And he was working in the colleges. He had been assistant director of admissions and then became director of financial aid and had had a drinking problem since he was in high school, as it turned out. And so little was known. I didn't know alcoholism. I wasn't familiar with it. Nobody in my world drank over much other than some wine with dinner. And there just wasn't much known at the time. There weren't all these rehab centers. And I remember one time I was sitting in, I think, a doctor or dentist's office, and I picked up a ladies' home journal.

And there was a quiz, and it said 10 things that show if you're an alcoholic. Here's the 10 signs of alcoholism. And if you check more than this many then you are an alcoholic if you check this so I thought well you know because of course he was drinking and I started checking and remember I had it was eight out of ten and I thought well it's eight it's not ten you know and there's and the denial that goes along with it, his, mine, you know, but it's so destructive. It was just a destructive addiction that he couldn't, just couldn't leave. And so, yes, I made the choice to be a single parent and raise the kids.

And, well, I was told by people, you know, councils at the school, you can't do it. There's just no way white women can raise three interracial kids. I said, well, that's wrong because I don't have a choice. And, of course, I can do it and did. You know, and there's, I mean, it was tough, you know. The women I knew, the African-American women raising these kids and struggled with this a lot of the same. But there weren't men there. I mean, you know, we were all single.

And in the 70s, it was like a wave swept through of divorce. And there were a lot of white women and women of color. And we were single. And we were raising these kids and doing the best we could. And I don't know, you know, there's lots and lots of incidences, you know, and awakenings for me, you know, we were somewhat protected. We were known in the town. So mostly, you know, it was fine, but I had an experience.

So I'm driving from our house to my parents it's probably a mile away and all of a sudden a police car comes up behind me and pulls me over and he says do you know what you did and I said no he said you rolled to a stop I have to give you a ticket and the kids are in the back they're probably seven five and three or something like that you know mommy what is the policeman saying? Mommy, why is the policeman talking? Mommy, mommy, what's the policeman? And he leans in the window. He looks at him and he says, yeah, it's police now, but it'll be pigs in a few years. And the kids are shocked and say, what, what pig? Mom, mommy, what pig? And I said to him, you know, I raised my boys to respect the police. And he backed off and he said, well, I'm going to let you go this time.

And it was a small incident, but it was a realization of what needed to be said, you know, the lessons that they would have to learn. So, you know, if that makes any sense, if that's. Yeah. I mean, it's also, you know, it's interesting to hear those stories also, because, you know, that's, it's a season in time, you know, we're having this conversation in 2021. And we're talking about decades ago and we've seen so much change and then we've also seen so much not change. And we're in this moment in time right now where I think a lot of people

are hoping that something is about to be different. I know. I hope so. I hope so. We thought it was going to be different back then. I guess we have to keep fighting the fight and participating in the struggle. Yeah, and that is the emergence of, you know, you've got generations of experience doing that in various different ways. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

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Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. You mentioned you ended up actually going back to school, to grad school. What was driving that decision? Well, I've been playing music. I've been playing out every weekend and playing and playing and rehearsing. And I loved it, but I wanted to go back to school. And, you know, I read a lot.

And so I just, I made the choice to try. I said, I'm just going to go and do it. And then I loaded, I was so overloaded with stuff to do that I did leave the store, which was excruciatingly hard. But I did for time. And I went to school and I did well. And I enjoyed it. And I just went straight through. I got my,

my BA and went pretty much straight on through and got a PhD. I did teach public school for a while and then got a PhD in education. Yeah. Here's a curiosity. You mentioned that school was absolutely not your thing when you were younger. When you go back a little bit later in life and you do really well, how does that feel to you? Well, you know what I realized,

which I somehow never knew as a younger person, is that it really makes a difference if you pay attention in class. There's that, yes. How did I not know that? But it did. And it also, again, it would go back to that a theory of flow but you know just that focus being able to just have a project and focus on it it feels good it makes your brain feel good and that can be songwriting or it can be writing a dissertation or painting a picture. But that is something that I seek out,

is that feeling of being completely immersed in whatever the project is. Yeah, and it sounds like you were able to find that to a certain extent in education when you sort of came back to it in a different place and with a different lens. Yes, I did. Yeah. So while this is all happening in the background, your kids are growing up. Ben's going out into the world, your son, and starts to really get traction, become well-known as an artist.

And you're sort of moving between teaching the Folk Music Center, the community playing, you and Ben come together, I guess it was maybe 2013-ish, to work on creating an album, Childhood Home. Or was it 2014? I think it came out in 2014. Right. So I'm assuming you guys were working on it for a while before that. Oh, no. No, we weren't. All right. Tell me more. Well, you know, the first time we sang together was when Danny Clinch was filming Pleasure and

Pain. Came out to the house. That was what? 99, 2000, I want to say. Right. So it's like almost 15 years before this. Yeah. Yeah. He came out and I got a call in the morning from Ben saying, I'm coming out with the film crew. So pick a song. We're going to sing it together for the, you know, so, okay, we did that. And then after that, we thought, you know, and so we should do an album. I thought that we should do an album and we talked about it on and off. And, and then, you know, he had, you know, he's got a really busy life. And he's got lots of projects and things on front burners and back burners.

And I was pretty busy, too. And I got a call from him saying, hey, you know, I've got about 10 days. Let's do an album. Come out to the studio tomorrow. And I was like, okay. And find somebody to run the store. Find somebody to look after the dogs. And yeah, we did that pretty much 10 songs, 10 days.

I mean, we did have a break because I think he had some touring and came back and we finished it up. But yeah, it was amazing. It was an amazing that coming together. And we both had songs, but we hadn't played any of them together that weren't on the album until we met in the studio and put them down. Yeah. I mean, beyond the experience of just sort of co-creating this thing with your son, I would imagine you also both showed up. You both have, you're strong individuals. You have your own lens, your own point of view, your own voice, your, your strong individuals. You have, you know, you have your own lens, your own point of view, your own voice, your own stylistic approaches. I imagine it must have been really interesting to sort of like spend 10 days intensively seeing how these two things dance or maybe don't dance so, so well. Yeah. Well, you know, there's no way I was going to get around being mom. Right.

You know, and but really, Ben was the producer and Ben was the more experienced singer, songwriter, producer, arranger. And really, I did and was more than happy to defer to his his decisions. And and that I think that's what that made it work. Cause I could, you know, you, you know, the mom's son, it gets in the way. You just, we're both professional. We both know how to do this and you do it. And it's like being in the studio with a really, really, really, really good musician. And that's, I mean, I, at least that's my perspective of Ben and And I guess Ben felt that I was competent anyway.

Yeah, that's amazing. You guys ended up touring for a while after that album too, right? We did. We did a couple of small tours and went to Europe and then did a few things. We went to Portland and we did a few things, yeah. And yeah, it was fun. It was a lot of fun. And if it isn't fun, it's hard few things, yeah. And yeah, it was fun. It was a lot of fun. And if it isn't fun, it's hard to keep doing it.

Absolutely. And then more recently, you came out with a solo album. I did. Yeah, Light Has a Life of Its Own. Just a bunch of songs. I just wanted to do it. And, you know, there's nothing like being in the studio and just layering on stuff and taking it off and putting it together and arranging it. And that's a really rewarding experience. And I have a wonderful sound engineer, John Crawford. Yeah, that was a great experience. And then it was mixed by the same people that did

Childhood Home. I do like to write songs, and it's usually something that's on my mind that I'm thinking about. And the way I can work through that is to just put it down and maybe make it rhyme. I'm wondering, listening to that and knowing how much music has been a part of your life, I guess I'm almost curious why there wasn't a solo album before this. Well, I guess it just wasn't time, the right time for it. I hadn't put the energy into it. Like I said, I'd written songs and sung them and sung them with just the local folks

and here in the store and out at a festival. But once I went through the process with Ben, I thought, oh, now I know how to do this too, and I can do this. Got it. So that was almost like a little bit of a gateway experience. Okay. Yeah.

I guess you could call it yeah it um it's interesting too you know you get so involved in in in your songs and your writing and the album and the but to go back and listen to it years later is is a whole other experience sometimes if it comes on a song comes on it's like oh oh yeah, that sounds pretty good. And you lose your perspective, I think, when you're smack in the middle of it. Yeah, a hundred percent. I don't know that so much from a music standpoint. I know it from a writing standpoint. I'm a writer, so I know it from the writing standpoint. I look at books that I've written in the past and some parts make me cringe

and other parts I reflect, I'm like, that was solid. You know, and actually I'm pretty proud of certain things and others I just want to pretend they never happened. It's so true. I know because when I wrote the book, you know, and the book is edited and you reread it and you rewrite it and you edit and you, but, and I was so used to reading it for what could be better, what could be better. And then once it was an actual book and I got my author's copy, it's hard to just read it as a book and not think, oh, why didn't I say that? And then there's other parts that I think, God, did I say

that? Wow, I'm pretty smart. You know, it's, it's, it is, it's a really interesting experience. Yeah. And I mean, so you have this beautiful new book out now and it's fascinating also because it's, you know, it's, it's memoir for sure. You know, it's your story. It's the story of your family. But there's also, it's this really rich perspective on the world of music, the folk music scene, the music itself, the community, the people within it. So it's this beautiful deep dive into both understanding you, but also really touching down in the world of folk and its evolution over the years. Well, it's good to hear you say that. I wanted that to come through because me, my family, we were part of this world around us.

We didn't just happen in a vacuum. And I wanted and I hope it worked to provide some history and context for who we were and what was going on. Yeah. When you think about a book also, and this is something I've learned, you work very often for months on this one thing, probably not dissimilar to an album, but I feel like it's different these days in that when a book is out, it's out. It's pretty much never changed. It's never re-edited. You don't have the opportunity to play it differently every time you're in front of a room of people. It is what it is, and it's in the world. And I would imagine it's a different experience for you emotionally, psychologically, of wrapping your head around putting this thing out into the world versus music, which very often can be changed and evolved and, you know, played differently over time. It's a good way to put it. I'm not sure that I had actually put it together like that. So it's good to hear you say

it. But, but yeah, I know, I look at it and I think, you know, that this is it. It's black and white. This is the book. And, you know, as, as, like I said, I, I, I'm a committed reader. I read everything that comes by me. And, um, and the thought of writing a book is just, uh, incredible. I could never do it. You know, who could do that? And so when I was offered a contract, it was, it was just a thrill and stunning. But then here you have this thing now. How do you look at that? I mean, what do you do when you wind up with this product? really weird I've learned in that I'm driven to make things and it defines a lot of different creative expressions. The process of creating it for me is the thing that nourishes me. The thing itself as a social object, once it's done, I'm oddly disconnected to. One of the only things where I haven't felt that way is actually, interestingly enough, the guitar that I built. And maybe because I can keep revisiting it and playing it and

hopefully bring myself a little bit of joy through the process. Whereas I don't think I have ever reread a book that I've written once it's in print. I'm proud of it. I'm happy I've done it. And the process, even though it can be really hard, I really enjoy, but I don't do it for the purpose of the thing. And I think I probably don't think about the fact that there's this thing that is not really changeable. That's going to be out there forever. Yeah. I'm glad I asked you because that's the same thing, you know, no, and you're right. Uh, it, uh, just great to hear you say it. It's being in the process of writing it. And I don't know, perfecting might not be the word, but making it say, saying what you want to say

is what makes you do it. That's the driving force. Yeah, same thing as music, right? You hear the licks in your head, but it might take you years to make it come out of your fingers. Yeah. Yeah. But writing is really an all-absorbing enterprise, and I really like it. I learn a lot, I think.

Right. Well, this feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So spending time in this container, the Good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? For me, I feel like I'm living a good life and I have enough to subsist and live okay, Maslow's hierarchy, but it's being able to enjoy getting up in the morning and doing what you do, whatever it is, and not dreading the day. So how you achieve it, it's going to be different and it's going to be harder for some people than others. Thank you so much for listening.

And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode. And then share, share the love. If there's something that you've heard in this episode that you would love to turn

into a conversation, share it with people and have that conversation. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot?

Flight Risk.