Good Life Project - Rediscovering Who You Really Are After Trauma, Burnout or People-Pleasing | Thema Bryant, PhD

Episode Date: July 25, 2024

Have you lost touch with your authentic self after trauma, burnout or years of people-pleasing? Join psychologist Dr. Thema Bryant as she shares a powerful roadmap for reclaiming your true identity.Dr. Bryant, author of Reclaim Yourself: The Homecoming Workbook, unveils how to shed the inauthentic masks we adopt just to fit in. You'll learn to dismantle those facades, reconnect with your core values, and rebuild confidence in your genuine self-expression. Whether you've felt spiritually disconnected or simply adrift, this guide will help you rediscover your most authentic self.You can find Thema at: Website | Instagram | Episode TranscriptIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Bessel Van de Kolk about integrating trauma.Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the WheelVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Where are your soft places to land? Or have we constructed a life where there are no places to land? When that's now a pattern, then we have to say, how am I participating in co-creating these kinds of relationships? Now, how we might co-create that is some people, when they're going through a hard time, disappear. So then your friends never get to see you in your struggle. So they assume you don't need anything.

And they don't offer anything. So we want to think about how can I show up more authentically so I can have more real connections. So have you ever felt like you've lost a part of yourself along the way. Like the person that you truly are deep down has gotten buried under layers of masks and personas and false cells adopted just to fit in, to get approval or stay safe. If so, you're not alone. So many of us reach points in our lives where we look around and realize that we've strayed so far from our authentic selves. And the painful truth is that persisting in those inauthentic ways, it just wreaks havoc on our peace of mind, our relationships, our health, our very soul. But what if you could reclaim that lost sense of self, rediscover who you really are and start living from that place of truth?

My guest today is Dr. Tam O'Brien, a clinical psychologist, the 2023 president of the American Psychological Association, professor at Pepperdine University and author of the book, Reclaim Yourself, the homecoming workbook. An expert on the journey of self-rediscovery after trauma or identity loss, Dr. Bryant shares just deeply insightful and practical wisdom for dismantling our emotional masks and coming home to our most authentic selves. So whether you're emerging from upheaval, feeling adrift midlife, or just know that there's a truer you waiting to be lived, this conversation will provide a powerful roadmap. So excited to share it with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. A lot of the work that you've done has been around reclamation.

Reclamation often after some sort of trauma, both personal, collective, societal, and we'll talk about the fact that those all kind of play together. Your recent focus is around this notion that at some point in our lives, and it doesn't necessarily even have to do with having endured something powerful or traumatic, that life tends to have this effect where we lose a sense of who we are, we lose ourselves. And that can just cause this enduring pain that shows up in so many different ways in so many parts of our lives. So I'm curious, when you use the phrase losing yourself, take me into what we're actually talking about here. Yeah. To lose yourself is to be ungrounded, disconnected, to begin living primarily as the false self or the performance self

or the people-pleasing self. It is to take on an identity, a way of being that is not rooted in the truth of you. And so it may be to stay safe. It may be to gain approval. It may be strategic in certain workplaces or even in some relationships. It can happen in a subtle, slow way where you're not quite sure, like, when did I shift in this way? When did I lose sight of the truth of myself? And then sometimes it can be dramatic and abrupt. You know, if we think about a trauma, or let's say I've suddenly moved, I'm in a new environment. And I feel like the truth of me is unacceptable here. And so then I begin to craft this other way of being. Do you feel like for most people that this is more of a conscious experience or something that kind of just happens over time without you really considering or meaning it?

It can really go both ways. Sometimes we are aware of, you know, you study the environment. And I say even for children, they'll notice certain children get praised and certain children are neglected and ignored. So they can think like, if I was cuter like that, if I dressed like that, if I got the grades they got, or if I helped out more than I would be the one that people would celebrate and praise. And so in that way, it can be intentional. helped out more than I would be the one that people would celebrate and praise. And so in that way, it can be intentional. And then also there are ways where we're not even conscious of the changes we're making. And the phrase I like to use in my book, Homecoming, is, can you say out loud, I miss me, right? And coming home to the truth of there are parts of me that I let go, that I lost sight of. And sometimes it's the busyness of life, right? That, you know, we're in a living in a time where people want you to make every hobby

a stream of income, right? It's like, if you're doing something and not getting paid for it, why? And it's like, because I love it, because it makes me come alive. And so we can get caught up in the machinery of productivity or consumerism or chasing value and lose sight of the things that actually made us us. No, that definitely lands. I heard you speaking and you said something that really, literally caught me in the throat. You said, when you show up masked, you're going to be expected to stay in that mask. Take me deeper into this. I'll use this one for dating. It could be for anything.

It could be for a job interview. But when you show up in a performance way, it's just not sustainable. You could, let's say, for example, you're pretending to be interested in what other people are interested in. And so you read about it or you Google it. And now they think they have someone who's aligned, who loves hiking, right? Who loves hiking. And if that's not really you, how long can you keep that up for? And then the resentment is going to end up showing up of like, I hiked for you. And they're like, I didn't make you do it. I thought you wanted to do it. So it's a setup for not only around our hobbies or interests, but also the things that make

us mad, things that are upsetting or offensive to us. And initially like wanting to be the peacekeeper. So you don't say anything. And I see this often with clients where they're telling me this like 20 minute story, right? A session is an hour. They spent 20 minutes telling me this thing. So that really upset you. And they say, I'm not mad, right?

So it can be a denial of even what you feel. And we do that with our loved ones. Some of us do pretend things don't bother us that do. And again, that's unsustainable because the resentment, the anger, the offense is going to grow over time. So I like to say, instead of sending your representative, let people meet you and then you can decide, right? Because if we're not aligned, this isn't some rejection at a soul level. It means we're not aligned and they'll be better along with someone else.

And so will you, you know, same thing with a job. Some positions are not for us, but we can crunch ourselves, fold ourselves into this role, but it has an effect on our health, on our motivation, on our depression, on our anxiety, on our performance. Yeah. To unmask is a gift. And we all, most of us love when we're in the presence of someone who is free like that. You know, it's just it's it's it's delightful. Also, you know where you stand. Even if you don't agree on everything, you don't have to guess. Right. So the people who show up in truth, it can be contagious and encourage more people to unmask. So instead of the, how are you? I'm fine. How are you? I'm fine. When someone breaks out of that and you say, how are you?

And they say, I'm exhausted. And then suddenly we're like, oh, me too. Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. It's interesting, right? Because I think we all want to be accepted. We all want to belong. We all want to be loved and embraced. And yet so often we show up with some version of a mask on in all the different domains of life. And we think

if that person accepts that as using your language, our representative, we'll get what we need. Oh, okay. I'm being accepted. That's cool. They like me. But what you're saying is that you don't like you. They like the mask. So you never actually get what you want. Yeah. And so it's not healing because on a core level, you know, they don't actually know me. And if they knew the truth of me, maybe they wouldn't love me or like me or choose me. And so that's part of what's healing in therapy. It's like I can get to the point where I speak the truth of me and like the world didn't fall apart.

And this person still regards me well, even if, let me and like the world didn't fall apart and this person still regards me well, even if let's say the behavior wasn't praiseworthy, but the behavior is not the same thing as the root of you, the core of you. And so, yeah, we're longing for that to be known, right? To be known, to be loved with the fullness of our humanity. I wonder if you see also in practice, some of us, you wear the mask so long, maybe it's a personal relationship, maybe it's a job, right? And then somebody says yes to the mask. So you get the job and then you're on the job.

And then they keep saying yes to that mask. So you keep layering more and more into it, make it more nuanced. And then you get five years into the job and people love the representative and you're getting praised for it. And you're getting all these things that say like, keep being this person yet inside, you're just getting hollower and hollower and hollower. I mean, it seems like there's a certain weight or burden, like psychic cost to living in this space. Talk to me about that. It's a lot of labor. It's exhausting because it doesn't come naturally to you. You're having to perform and the emotional labor is draining. And what this also brings up is when you begin healing and growing, some people won't celebrate it.

Some people like the mask better than you. You know, the representative may be the person who like volunteers for everything, is always willing to stay late and come in early. And then suddenly you're like, why should I have to do that? Right. I'm getting paid the same amount as these other people. And I'm the only one here till nine o'clock at night. And I don't want to do it anymore. Now, your good, good friends will be like good for you. But there are going to be people who are like you changed, right? And you're like, I did. I did change. And so I think it's important to help people be prepared for the fact that some people like your mask better and it is still important to choose

you. That either they will adjust and come to know the truth of you and appreciate that, or there may be some separations that happen as a result of you living more authentically. Yeah. When people come to you, because I know you have a lot of clinical practice also, and you see this going on for an extended period of time, how does that actually show up on a day-to-day basis in somebody? The carrying of that weight, how does it actually manifest in a person's mind and body? It often is the person who is everything to everyone, right? And so you may show up as strong, you may show up as even charismatic, because for some of the people, not everyone, but some people are trauma survivors

who grew up and their safety depended on, whether emotional or physical safety, dependent on them detecting what people needed or wanted and give it to them before they get mad, right? You know, I have clients who could say they could judge by the sound of the parent's footsteps if the parent was in a bad mood or not, right? And you better figure that out before they get to your door, right? And so someone like that, you know, a lot of people would like them as a friend because they anticipate your needs. When you ask them, well, do they need, I don't need anything, right? And on a core level, they believe that, right? That like, you know, the easy to please, like I'm good, I'm easy, but have never really taken time to know like, what do you actually like?

Like, if it really is your choices, it's not just what everybody else wants. What do you enjoy? What would be nourishing for you? And so that's how it can show up. It can show up as emotional unavailability because there's a wall there, right? Blank, you know, so sometimes it's even, I'm consciously not telling people what I think or feel. Sometimes they really don't know. So we often hear that from teenagers. The answer is like, I don't know. I don't know. But there are adults who are still like that. Well, it's like,

well, what do you like? I don't know. And so perhaps you never got to explore it. It never felt safe enough. The good news with this whole reclamation is it's not too late. People in all different stages of development at all different ages who are like, I'm ready to be me. I'm ready to be free. And so whether I'm 20 or 40 or 60, it's my season. And so, you know, we can claim that. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting, right? Because you also described this reclamation of you and like the true you as something that you know, and you kind of get ready to go back to it, to reclaim it. Do you think they actually know who that person is? Like what the capital L self is?

Or do you think that so many of us actually have been so disconnected for so long that we don't even know who it is anymore if we ever did? Yeah. And there's both. There are people who are like, I used to be this. I used to love this. I was talking to someone recently who was experienced a major grief and said, you know, when they had that loss is when they stopped dancing. And before that, like they love dance. So in that way, there's an awareness of like, I want to get back to her. I want to get back to that. And then, you know, as you're naming, there are other people who are like, all I know is this isn't it. And that's enough information to start. Because, you know, we can work in reverse. You know, what don't you like? What doesn't align with you?

And so we can start to like move those things away to the truth. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You're starting with like the negative side of it and saying, okay, now that we know what's over there. Right, right. And this is a lot of what you write about, you know, tools for the journey home, which I think is what we're describing here. Like, what are the tools? What are the mechanisms and the strategies? And one of them that you explore is this notion of what you describe as reparenting yourself. Yes. So take me

into this. Many people get stuck, even are in therapy and stuck, reliving and relitigating the past, right? So we were pretty much all raised by humans and humans are fail fallible and some more harmful than others, but all are imperfect. And so I say that as a parent, we don't get it all right. And so we can literally spin our wheels and spend years in grief and anger for what we didn't get. And it's justified, it's understandable, that's hurtful. I definitely don't come from a perspective of like, oh, just shake it off. Like there has to be a reckoning within the self, even an acknowledgement within the self. And it might not be that the parent acknowledges it. It's beautiful if they get to some point where

they apologize for some things or acknowledge some. So while the grief or anger, all of that can be a part of the process, but the problem is some of us get stuck, right? And so now instead of living, we are in a permanent state of like, I can never have a good life because I got gypped as a child. It's like I'm broken and this is just the way it's going to be. Right. I'm irreparable. And these are the people who have a good life. It's because they had a good mom. Well, there can be truth in the sense of, yes, people are flourishing more who have been supported. That is a truth. Support helps. And it also is true. There are people who didn't get it and have gotten the support in other ways, have healed in particular ways and are creating a life that has joy and fulfillment. for yourself the things you wish this ideal parent did. Because what that is, it's giving my nervous system and my whole being the message of my worthiness. Instead of just waiting for

someone else to do it or for that parent to do it, I like to say it's dangerous to put your healing on hold or put it in the hands of those who dropped you. They didn't treat me well and I can't be well until they say I'm good enough. That could be a lifetime. So instead I say their treatment of me was not indicative of my worth. Their treatment of me was because of the state they were in. All right. And so then I just start thinking about what are things I feel like, you know, good parents do and how can I do that for myself? So, you know, we could argue that, especially with younger kids, that good parents establish a bedtime, like there's some kind of routine in the house, like meals are at, for sure that there will be

meals and that they are at a particular time and that it's not just junk food. Right. So then I start to say to myself, go to bed, go to bed. machines, like, let me mother myself better than that, right? Let me eat some greens. Let me drink some water instead of just another Coke, right? So we begin to give ourselves that. Good, responsible, engaged parents also serve as a screening. Like, we can't block everything because some people are tricky and, you know, you just didn't know they were going to hurt your kid. But there are some people who just show up with all kinds of flags and you would not

let them be with your child. And so then if I'm going to be that way for myself, when people show up with all these flags and they're not honoring me or respecting me, then I get to draw that line and say, no, this person can't come in my house. Or no, I don't have to respond to their attacks. So to begin to give ourselves that good love and good parenting is healing. Now that makes so much sense. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. I'm curious also, what happens when somebody says, yes, this makes total sense. I'm going to make my list. I'm going to start to do this to me. And at the same time, let's say that parent or parent figure, guardian, whoever it may have been, is still in their life and they're still showing up with the same dysfunction and effectively sort of like continuing the unhappiness that was born from like a very young age. And so here you are saying, I'm going to do all the reparenting stuff.

I'm really actively engaged in this. And yet this other person who was the source, they're still in your life. I mean, it seems like that would get pretty complicated, but it's also probably a realistic scenario for some. Very realistic. And you use the exact word, which is continuing. So when we think about post-traumatic stress disorder,

it was developed thinking about veterans. So they would go to battle and then when they come home, then you can provide the care. And some people are in continuous traumatic stress. So the example I like to give is if you're in an abusive relationship, the therapy with you who is still in it is very different from the therapy I give to someone who's escaped it. If you're still in it, it's more like a maintenance than like real healing and restoration because it's continuing to happen. And so then a part of, and this can be hard for people, whether by culture or religious, or just personality, needing to establish boundaries with the people who show no remorse and continue to do and say harmful things. Now, some people get to the point

of saying, like, I'm just totally cutting them out of my life. If that's where people are, then that works for them. And there are other people who are like, I would never, right? I would never cut off my parents. It's like against my values or, you know, I would never leave this marriage or what have you. So then if people are going to still interact with the person, then for them to think about what could some self-protective boundaries look like. Meaning, let's say I don't want to cut off my parents, but do I have to spend every weekend at their house all day Saturday and all day Sunday? Right? Maybe I still see them, but the frequency is less. Or maybe I set up a boundary by saying, if you're going to be drinking and start talking in this way, I'm going to leave. So now I am parenting myself and limiting access to that kind of toxic behavior, which undermines my healing. It's complicated, I would imagine, for some people as well. Yeah. You use the phrase self-protection. I'm also wondering about the role of self-compassion

in this experience. One of the things I've discovered, especially with trauma survivors or people who grew up in a high stress environment, is we have a high tolerance for pain. Because you've experienced so much, you can end up dismissing things that don't seem like a big deal given what you've lived through, right? So then we can tolerate a lot of things that really should be intolerable, you know? And so what I like to offer to people is instead of saying, I'll do it until I can't do it anymore, or I can't take it anymore, because you may be in the kind of place where you could take it for another decade. But instead, it's not that I cannot do it. I choose not to. Right. So then we have the agency and empowerment and self-compassion to choose more than endurance. Sometimes we just

think perseverance means the friend who never gives up on you, even though like you stole from them, the partner who never leaves you, even though like every month you're cheating with a new person. I'm not going to give up on people because I can take it. It doesn't bother me, you know, and then to say like, am I flourishing in this? Am I thriving in this? Am I respecting myself? Or am I dishonoring myself by continuing to participate in dysfunction? Yeah, I mean, it's, the concepts all sound very straightforward. But I also imagine in practice, it's anything but. Oh, yes. This is so nuanced. And there's probably, it's not like a straight line. Oh, yes, I said yes to start doing this.

And then I'm just going to keep doing it more and more and more. It's like a very jagged line because this is reality. And that's why we have to get creative even with our strategies. Let's say someone goes home for the holidays and every holiday they come back destroyed, you know, because everybody is talking mean to them and either about their weight or the fact that they're still single or whatever it is they want to say. And so for some people, like confronting them or not going is not an option. So I may offer something like, what would it be like to sit at the quote unquote kids table? I've been with the kids over in the corner and you just be the favorite auntie.

That's like sitting over there, chatting it up with the kids. And so then you're not directly in this conversation or I'll tell them like, be the person who keeps volunteering to go on errands. It's like, Oh, we're out of hot sauce. I'll go. Because as you're naming for some people, it just just direct intervention just feels impossible or culturally unacceptable or what have you. So finding the ways to nourish ourselves that feel in the realm of possibility. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You're describing I had a funny reaction.

I'm an introverted person. And if I would find myself at a party or something like this, at somebody's house or something like that, I noticed over time that I would step into the regular role of kitchen helper because it like, it gave me a job to do where I could then kind of choose how much I wanted to be social, how much I wanted to interact. And it made me comfortable.

And sort of like, you're describing like a different version of like, like figure out your strategies that are quote, you know, socially acceptable for the setting, but that let you be okay. You know, like do give you what you need. That's such a good one. Is that because it's like I'm present and I'm doing activities. I don't have to constantly talk. And that kind of brings us to another thing that you dive into, which is this notion of, you know, in this process of reclaiming yourself, that really reconnecting with the sense of emotional intelligence is important. And I think a lot of us like to think that we're emotionally intelligent. But then when we really do a gut check on that, we realize there's probably a whole lot of stuff that we're missing.

Yeah, it's important for us to even reflect on in our growing up, which emotions were even acceptable, right? Because we have like judgments involved, which is why we deny feeling certain things because we've been told like, that's bad. Even some people's spiritual traditions can lead to like spiritual bypassing where you're not, don't get permission to be human, to have feelings. I wrote recently on my Instagram page, it's healthy to be outraged about outrageous things. And this woman responded, but is it really? Because outrageous means terribly bad.

And is anything really terribly bad? And is anything really terribly bad? And I'm reading this message like, are you looking around the world and asking me, is anything happening that is terribly bad? Right? But it was unacceptable to her to think that being outraged could ever be something healthy, right? Because if the message is you should be detached and peaceful and not moved by anything. Well, there are some things that are happening around the world that if you're not moved by, you're not grounded in truth, right? So asking ourselves, what are the emotions I lean into? What are the ones I easily share? And we could have different ones, even some good emotions. I work with our graduate

students at Pepperdine University and different points they have to interview for internship. And so they practice these interviews and having a client, sometimes the question is something like, we're trying to choose between you and these other people, like what makes you stand out or why we should choose you? And the student was really stumped because she had been raised not to brag. And for her, so to her, it felt like the question is requiring that you brag or make yourself better than other people. And so she was given these answers like, I try my best. Oh, that's not going to cut it in the end. You're not going to get chosen. So that conditioning that we have, the meaning that we give to certain feelings, I even have had clients around trauma who are afraid to be happy because the feeling is,

if I feel good about something, it's going to be taken away. So they're always anticipating this is going to go badly somehow. We may feel like I'm aware of my emotions. Sometimes we are or not. But then also, am I able to convey them? And who are the people I convey them with? Because I get it that there are some people who are just associates. So you're not going to tell them everything about what you're feeling.

And you might say, I'm fine. And you, because I don't really know you that way. But is that the way we communicate with everyone? That we're always masked and guarded and closed off? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting also, because it brings up the idea that sometimes some level of mask is actually okay. Like for a particular domain, for a particular reason,

it serves a particular purpose. But if we live that way in all domains of life all the time, then we never get what we need to be whole. That person who we are never gets to show up in life and that causes suffering. Yes, that's the key. It's like, one, am I aware of the truth? So I may be presenting in a particular way because that's what this environment demands. I think about that film where they're like, there's no crying in baseball. Are you crying? So there may be a particular spaces where we feel like I got to like do this role. But where are your soft places to land? Or have we constructed a life where there are no places to land?

And when people describe that kind of situation to me, that like everybody's always using me or everybody depends on me, but I can't depend on anyone. When that's now a pattern, then we have to say, how am I participating in co-creating these kinds of relationships? So you run into like one user or two users. Okay. Some people are users, but like everybody, like everybody in your whole circle. Now, how we might co-create that is some people when they're going through a hard time disappear.

So then your friends never get to see you in your struggle. So they assume you don't need anything, right? And then they don't offer anything. So we want to think about how can I show up more authentically so I can have more real connections. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So you brought up the topic of spirituality and sometimes spiritual bypassing. And this is one of the things that you speak to and write about also is the notion of spiritual practice and it's interesting because the example you use with somebody who's sort of leaning on this person's understanding of a spiritual like foundation to say nothing's either good or bad it just is you know and who am i to judge you know and it's interesting because

a lot of that thought process comes out of eastern tradition, nearly Buddhism. But then you look at examples like Thich Nhat Hanh, who basically saw so much atrocity and said, no, we actually need a different, we need to step into this philosophy differently. And led with what I think has often been described as engaged Buddhism. Like, we're going to recognize the things that are truly horrifying in this world and do something about it. And at the same time, we can stand in this place of integrity with our broader system of beliefs. That is such an interesting and often difficult dance, I think, for a lot of people from different traditions. Yes, it's a great example. So mindfulness, of course, is very huge in general, but also integrating it in psychotherapy. And I was on a panel at this multicultural summit looking at

mindfulness with marginalized communities. And some of the critique was around like one of the principles is acceptance. And so the way people were like interpreting that was we have these psychologists going into the inner city and basically sedating these kids. Like there are outrageous things happening in our community and they're going there, training them to be like checked out and disengaged. And so, you know, then one of the panelists was saying, it's not so much acceptance, meaning I like the way or I approve of the way things are. But instead, if we change acceptance to awareness, right, I am aware that

this is the truth of where we are. And then I can decide how I'm going to engage or what I'm going to do about it. But I first must accept or be aware that this is the reality. So it is interesting that nuance, and as you're naming with other faith traditions as well, that I call them silent sanctuaries. There are some churches that will never talk about anything happening in the world because they say, we don't want to be political, right? Whereas others will say, well, my faith drives my activism because I need to work toward justice. So it is trying to think about like, what is the ultimate goal? And is it only individual? Or is there also like either a collective care, a collective compassion, collective responsibility? Yeah. So if we think about spiritual practice in some way,

being a part of this process of reclaiming your sense of lost self. What's some guardrails here? It's just some guidelines in terms of like, when I think about how to bring spiritual practice back into this process, how do I do it in a way that is healthy and helpful? Yes, great. So one of the practices I encourage is the creation of a morning ritual of, you know, like what's going gonna feed your soul. Because sometimes we're focused on like, what's going to make me money or socially,

what's going to get me connections or dating apps or, you know, all of these things. But it's like at the core of who I am, when I think about what is sacred to me, what brings to my awareness, the sacred, what allows me to feel connected to that. And that will look different for different people. But the first thing I say is don't set your alarm for the time you have to jump out of bed because then you wake up already anxious. It's like, oh, no, we're already running off to the races. So I want to set my alarm before I actually have to be up so that I can ease into my day and then explore the practices that fill my cup so that I don't show up to work empty and frantic and desperate for validation. Like that, because I have filled my spiritual cup, then I can give for my overflow.

Right. And not from a place of resentment or emptiness. And so like, what are the things that could be like soul food or soulful? For some people that's like meditation or prayer. For some people it's listening to music. I like to encourage people to get like, have a theme song for this season of your life. And when you put that song on it,

just like get you in the right mindset for the day. For some people that's stretching and exercise, but for it to not just be a body thing, but I think about like sacred dance. Like, so what is the movement that is not just like, because I want the abs, but that nourishes me on a deeper level. Another big one people do in the morning is writing, journaling, and any artistic expression. You know, most people who have like an artistic masterpiece will describe like they didn't write it. They received it or like this great artwork. And it's like this spiritual inspiration, you know, that they receive or create in that like divine place.

So starting with listening to this podcast, right? So having your soul fed and, you know, the evidence of that I give is I was working at this really toxic job. One day I was walking in and the assistant director stopped me on the steps and she goes, you always seem so happy. And I get the feeling it has nothing to do with this place. And I said, you always seem so happy. And I get the feeling it has nothing to do with this place. And I said, you're right. You're absolutely right. So you're right. So I do something I call devotions, but I got to feed and ground myself before I get here so that I'm not

dependent on an unhealthy place for my joy. That makes so much sense. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just

15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. I'm sure you get this also. Sometimes, like when you're talking to the organizer beforehand,

you get the question, what's your walk on song, you know, and they want to know, and that's the song that, you know, like plays you onto the stage when you're walking on, it's in the background. I'm like, this, wouldn't that be cool thing to just like, what's your walk on song for like your day? I love that. As you walk into the day or like what's your walk into song.

Like it's kind of what you're describing. It totally is. I love that. Yeah, as you walk into the day, or like what's your walk into song, like it's kind of what you're describing. It totally is. I love that walk on song, yes. It's interesting also because you're describing spiritual practice in a very practical way. Maybe some of the things that any individual is going to sort of like throw into that thing

will be their own devotional thing that makes it feel. But often I think people back away from this thing called spirituality or spiritual practice because they think, oh, I'm not that kind of person. That's a little out there. It's a little weird. But the way you're describing it, it's actually a very practical thing. Anyone can step into this. You put into that bucket of practices whatever it is that allows you to feel whole and okay and move into the rest of your day. It makes it very accessible in a lot of cool ways. You also described this, you were just referencing,

this is one of the things you write about as well, the notion of self-care versus community care. It's kind of hard to do one without the other. Yeah. And people have created this false dichotomy, false choice between the two. So one, a lot of people have, even in our field, mental health professionals have focused on self-care and not on relationships. And some

people have even falsely argued, like, it's kind of like that you have to be at your perfected self before you can have relationships with people. But a part of our healing happens in community. I've had many people who if I'm working with them and they're single, they're like, I'm all better. And then let them start dating again and all kinds of stuff come up. Because when you're living it out, it's very different than just like sitting by yourself. So the self-care things are important, but also we do need community care. And there are different types of social support.

There's emotional social support. So those are people who you can cry with. You can share your good news with. You can share your outrage with. They can comfort you and validate you. And then there's like instrumental support. So those are people who can help with practical things. If like you're a little short on money for rent or they'll loan you the car

or they're willing to like watch your child while you go for the job interview, there's informational support. When you always had like that one friend in the circle who knows like what's happening in the city or where to go for this. So like that's not legal and not everybody can fulfill all those roles.

Like some people are not the touchy feely but they can tell you how to like do this transaction. And so receiving that is healing because it also lets us know, you know, that we're worthy of care, not only from ourselves, but like in other people's eyes that they see our worthiness. And then another part of community care is community as in the collective, like working for policies and legislation that are life affirming, that are fair. So what some people would say is, you know, it's not fair to tell a single mother of three, like she should just go get a pedicure for her self-care when she doesn't have a livable wage and like there's not quality child care and, you know, she's in a bind. So, you know, thinking about it from that collective space, too. And the reason I just said it's not a false choice is some people who are on the community care track are like, I don't want to hear about self-care. I know it's all community. And I'm like, you know, some people, one, don't currently have community. So that message would then say they can have

nothing, right? Or that the community has to be everything. So there are some things, even with clients who are low income, there are things we can still do to nourish ourselves and take care of ourselves that don't, you know, self-care doesn't just need to be a cruise, right? It can be very simple. Yeah. I wonder if, you know, part of what's going on underneath a lot of this also is this sort of like cultural shift I feel like has happened over the last few generations that says that if we can't do this thing alone, then there's something wrong with us. Like we quote should be able to like be self-reliant. And, you know, when you look historically, that's a joke.

Like it was never like that, you know, but somehow it's like become part of like the modern culture, like that this is the ethos and we wouldn't have survived as human beings. If that was the dominant culture. Yes. It promotes a hyper independence and it chastises, condemns, judges people who even express that they're lonely, right? And, you know, the Surgeon General has talked about like the high rates of loneliness now, but some people's response to hearing that someone is lonely is like, you just need to love yourself.

And I'm like, that's not the same thing. You can love yourself sincerely and deeply and still desire connection in your life and feel lonely that you don't have it. So I agree. There is kind of that movement of like, you shouldn't need anyone if you really were healthy. Yeah. It's interesting during the last four or five years, like throughout the pandemic, I feel like you saw so many shifts in that. And people were first forced to be completely isolated. And then so many people were suffering. And then people started using technology to try and like find their way back to community in the virtual space even though they couldn't be there in person and then like as sort of like the restrictions lift and as people start

to actually move back into i think we're all kind of fumbling and stumbling trying to find out like what is the new normal when it comes to interacting with people both individually and at scale like what's the new okay and but i also feel like the window for sure like defining what our new normal is around that is closing without us having fully reconciled how we feel about it and what we want to do about it and what's your take i'm curious wow thanks for more about that closing in what way i feel like oftentimes because this was a traumatic experience for so many people and trauma often opens us to reconsider a lot of things but as sort of like culture around us starts to you know like go back to everyday life

i think our own and the social tolerance for reconsidering that window closes with that so it's like it's not just this indefinite thing like let me keep doing this on my own time frame there's a lot of personal and social expectation that like we need to get how, like, we need to figure this thing out and just drop into whatever the structure is we want moving forward. But a lot of us, we haven't figured out this thing yet. And, but we feel like we're, we're supposed to just get back to like life as, as it was. Such a good point that where it's this opportunity for a reckoning, a reclamation, a transformation, instead of just like the return to where we were or how we were before. And I see that as an important opportunity that both faith communities and schools, any community gathering,

I think has missed when they're just like, okay, now we're back. And it's like, do we need to do it this way? And a big pushback we often hear are folks from the disability community. For so long, you all told us these things were impossible that we had asked for. And when everybody else needed it, we made it available, right? In terms of like in this virtual space. And I was like, okay, that's over. And we even see changes around like workplaces, more places allowing people to work remotely, if not full-time, at least like two or three days a week. So an opportunity to reimagine not only what's possible, what is optimal,

and not, of course, just in the workspace, but for ourselves. Talking about the workspace and also the shift that happened between remote and in-person, I wonder what your take is on this. It's spinning in my head as you're describing this. So many people actually had to work from home, and then we got comfortable working from home. And then we might even start to build a little bit community away from the community that often defined community, which for so many people was work. And I feel like not wearing the mask as much in that home life or that like immediate social community as we were at work. And now we're being very often like that pendulum is swinging back. A lot of companies now are

saying like back to the office. And I wonder if part of the resistance to that, because there is a lot of resistance, isn't just the convenience of, oh, I'm home. I have more hours in my day and stuff like this. But it's this internal knowing that says, that's the place where I wore the mask. And now I can actually do the job without wearing it because just structurally things have changed. And if I go back, like, am I going to have to put it back on? I wonder how that lands with you. Yeah, I think that's very true. It's, you know, not only like the balance and the labor, but not only the work labor, but the emotional

labor of being in the environment of having to be on, right? And as you said, I can do the work and not be on. And I think, you know, we're just discovering more of the like pros and cons. Because in some places who that have allowed for the remote, they're able to recruit nationally or internationally because you don't have to be in that city to work there. But also you have people who like don't know anybody they work with or like just the one supervisor. So they can feel disconnected or lonely. So I am seeing a number of places that give the option. And, you know, for example, I had a client who lived alone in an apartment. And so she was one of the first ones volunteering to go back. She missed seeing people.

And then other people are like, no way, I never want to go back there. Yeah, it's such an interesting, I think people have had just such different experiences. Yeah, yeah. One of the things that you speak to is this notion of how confidence plays into this, the reclamation of being able to show up as who you are. And it's interesting because I wonder if a lot of people have a fair amount of confidence that's built around their representative. And everyone around them would be like, oh, this is the most confident person out there. But the notion of then, okay, what happens if I show up as myself? If I stop sending my representative and I start sending me, like that confidence just vanishes. Yes, absolutely.

That I know how to win people or please people or charm people. And if I wasn't that, what I talk about or who would I be? This also comes up around substance dependence because I don't go into a whole big speech about like all the health consequences. I ask people to tell me about like what they gain. And often it is that like, is it liquid courage or, you know, or the freedom to not care if I am rejected. And so the important message around confidence is it doesn't have to be natural and instant. You can work at it, which means you can build it over time. So if some people were to say, for example, I've been this like fake superficial person and like, I'm tired of it. I don't really like it. I want more depth in my

conversations or relationships, but I don't know how people will respond. Right. That will feel you will feel nervous. Like it's understandable as opposed to like shaming people because you feel nervous about trying something different. And the reality is we don't have any guarantees. Some people aren't going to like it. So it's that in some parts, do it afraid, but knowing over time, you'll build the confidence and also you'll build connections based on this evolving self. How much of confidence do you think is making peace with the fact that a lot of people will reject you along the way? Well, it is peace and recognizing I no longer need or require their approval. It's that freedom.

Yeah. It's that freedom of like, yeah, that's okay. It's all right that I'm artsy or I'm spiritual or any of the things and they don't like that, right? They think that's weird or they think whatever they think. That's fine. So they should go with people they like. It's funny. I'm recalling an experience where I was watching somebody else with, and there was somebody else who was with me and we're sort of like watching somebody in a, what seemed like a fairly performative mode, really confident, like strong will, bold,

like making it like and convincing. And we came out of that experience and I talked to the person next to me, what'd you think? And they're like, oh, confident, amazing, you know, like blown away. Wow. So entertained and like so wise. And, and, and there was something in me that said, I saw a deeply wounded and scared person who was like projecting something so they could hide. The curiosity brings up in me is like, do you think that we, like if you're really, really paying attention, that other people sense when a confidence is built upon something that is not real? Or do you think it's just like, we can actually keep on keeping on and accomplish what we want? Because my sense is like, when people are really paying attention, you start to really see that there's something not right here. Like you feel it, there's something intuitive.

That's right. I think people who are attuned, people who are sensitive, people who are observant, know the difference. It feels different. Like what is this based on? And also your experience with, let's say someone who's highly wounded or anxious that either I have been there before, or I was raised by someone who was like that. So I've recognized what I'm seeing versus other people either haven't really seen it or didn't know what they were looking at. So yeah, they, it's that whole thing. You can fool some of the people some of the time, but there are those who can feel the fragility. As you described a number of times in the conversation, some people will be like,

oh, I like this person. Some people will be like, no, actually, can you be who you were before? And you write about this. It's this notion of mourning loss, but it's not necessarily mourning loss as in the death of a person or something like this. It's like there are so many layers of relationships that we've built in our lives. And as we reveal, reclaim who we are, and then start showing up as that person,

there's going to be a process of loss and grief. And there is sometimes, as opposed to the actual relationship, which is possible that you're grieving, but sometimes it's grieving our idea of it, our fantasy of it, what it could have potentially have been, but at the root in truth never really was. Right. And so having to let go of the fantasy. Yeah. You write about what I guess you kind of describe as the transformative power of properly processed grief. Take me into a little bit more. One, to grieve is to love or to care. It lets me know what I had invested or what I was hoping from this. It's a inner truth. And then you just try to figure out like, what of this am I grieving?

Am I grieving the actual person or am I grieving having someone in that spot? Because then just like if I'm bored or whatever, this is my go-to, especially when I have people, let's say, who are in a friendship circle where they're always the neglected one, right? So they're like, oh, we found out the friends went here, they went there and they never told me. So we can say in some ways like that you're grieving the loss of this friendship and also the loss of what you hoped this would be because they never really treated you like someone in the inner group anyway. But maybe sometimes you would get invited so you could grieve that, right? So it requires a kind of a deeper truth. What is it that I am missing? What is it that I

am grieving? And, you know, the invisible losses, the unrecognized losses, there's loss of loved ones. But then there's loss of aspects of ourself, loss of our sense of trust, loss of safety, loss of income. Yeah. So giving ourselves permission for that because unprocessed, unrecognized grief shows up in unhealthy patterns. Yeah. I would imagine one of the losses is also just the notion of the loss of the way people used to treat me when they thought I was this other person. And I like that. But now as I'm showing up as myself, I'm not going to get that anymore from them.

So I need to grieve that. That's right. But then I will get that from people who now actually like the real me as I show up. So I need to just like breathe into it and give it time. That's right. It's like outlast it, continue on your journey. And it's that, you know, can you hold yourself in the space between and that, you know, hope or faith. And I talk about therapy as an act of faith, that I'm showing up here because I believe, a part of me believes things can be better for me. So here we are. Circling back to the beginning of our conversation, like fundamentally in the

context of us feeling like we've hit a point in our lives where we've lost ourselves, regardless of what the reason is. And somebody is listening into this conversation and they're like, yeah, all these different things make sense. Where might somebody start? What's a good starting point for somebody to start to say, okay, I'm feeling like I've been showing up in a way I've lost myself. And I really want to first figure out who I am or reconnect with who I am, reclaim that and start showing up as that person

in my life because I can tell it's going to feel better. Even if there's a window where I'm going to have to navigate some loss. What's a sort of like a first step in that you find is comfortable and doable for most people? To think about, let's say three times, no matter how long ago they were, were in that moment you felt like you, right? You could have been by yourself. You could have been in a group of people. You could have been 10 or it could have been last year or last night. That helps us to know that a piece of that still exists in me because that is what I'm going for. It may not be that exact activity, but that sense of truth, right? I was showing up as my true self or in that moment. Howard Thurman has that quote I

love, do the things that make you come alive because far too few of us are actually alive. So that can just be your North Star or your confirmation that it is possible. It is possible for me to be me. And then after those kind of memories, then you can look at in what spaces or with what people or doing what activities feel the most like they encourage my truth. So I have some friends who, let's say, either politically or religiously or scientifically, you know, can feel very narrow to me or very restrictive, where I may find myself being more careful in conversation with them. And then there are people where it just flows. There were, you know, I wouldn't even think of a mask because that's just how easy it is. So I want to maximize my time with people and in places that cultivate that, that give me

where I feel permission to be me. I love that. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is to embrace and love myself completely, imperfections and all. Thank you. You're welcome. Before you leave, if you love this episode, you'll also love the conversation we had Thank you. You're welcome. Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez, Christopher Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelly Dell for her research on this episode. And of course,

if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, Would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen.

Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot?

Flight Risk.