Good Life Project - Rev. angel Kyodo williams | A Path to Collective Liberation

Episode Date: September 2, 2021

Rev. angel Kyodo williams has been bridging the worlds of liberation, love, and justice her entire adult life. Her critically acclaimed book, Being Black: Zen and the Art of Living With Fearlessness and Grace was hailed as “an act of love” by Pulitzer Prize winner Alice Walker, and "a classic" by Buddhist pioneer Jack Kornfield. And, her book, Radical Dharma: Talking Race, Love & Liberation, has been inviting communities to have the grounded, real, hard conversations necessary to become more awake and aware of what hinders liberation of self and society. Known for her willingness to sit with and speak uncomfortable truths with love. Rev. angel notes, "Love and Justice are not two. Without inner change, there can be no outer change. Without collective change, no change matters.” And right now, we are in a moment where we need change, on every level, personal, interpersonal, cultural, and societal. Rev. angel was my guest on the show a number of years ago, and that led to a friendship that has been a true gift in my life. I wanted to invite her back both to explore her personal experience and evolution of thought around identity over the last few years, and also learn from her deeply wise, insightful and, for many, surprising lens on what it takes to step into this moment equipped for the quest for collective liberation.You can find Rev. angel Kyodo williams at: Instagram | Website | Rev. angel's Belonging audio programIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with Bishop Michael Curry about the healing power of love, even now.My new book is available for pre-order:Order Sparked: Discover Your Unique Imprint for Work that Makes You Come Alive and get your book bonuses!-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I am so excited to have my friend Rev. Angel Quijoto-Williams back on the show. She has been bridging the worlds of liberation, love, and justice her entire adult life. Her critically acclaimed book, Being Black, Zen and the Art of Living with Fearlessness and Grace, it was hailed as an act of love by Pulitzer Prize winner Alice Walker, and a classic by Buddhist pioneer Jack Kornfield. In her book Radical Dharma, Talking Race, Love, and Liberation, it's been inviting communities to have these real, grounded, hard conversations that are necessary to become more awake and aware of what hinders liberation of self and society. Known for her willingness to sit and speak uncomfortable truths with love, Rev Angel notes, love and justice are not two. Without inner change, there can be no outer change. Without

collective change, no change matters. And right now, we're all in a moment where we need collective change on every level, personal, interpersonal, cultural, and societal. So Rev Angel was my guest on the show a number of years ago. That led to an incredible friendship that has been a true gift in my life. And I wanted to invite her back both to explore her personal experience and evolution of thought around identity over the last few years, and also learn from her deeply wise, insightful, and for many, surprising lens on what it takes to step into this moment equipped for the quest for collective liberation. And before we dive in, over these next three weeks, I'll be sharing

short stories, just two to three minutes from my new book, Sparked, which introduces you to the 10 sparkotypes or imprints for work that make you come alive. I was so inspired by all of these amazing people. I wanted to share their Spark Stories as a kind of short, fun hit of inspiration and insight as we all make the transition into a season of reimagining and for many, reinvention. Let's dive into today's short and sweet Spark Story. Elaine Montilla, Sage Maven, is a sage and has always been one in every domain of her life. In fact, for years, her family has playfully called her a preacher because anytime she learns something, she immediately turns around and

tells anyone who'll listen what she's discovered. Her friends often ask which degree or certification she's finishing because they know Elaine has an insatiable hunger for knowledge. For her though, it's not just about knowing. Her maven impulse to devour wisdom is largely in service of what she'll do with what she learns. Had her primary sparkotype been the maker, she'd likely tap her growing body of knowledge to create at a higher level. A scientist primary would harness the knowledge to more effectively figure out solutions and puzzles to problems. For years, Elaine could never truly understand why she loved reading and learning so much and also why it never seemed to be enough. With the discovery of her sage-maven pairing, it all made sense. She learns to illuminate. In her personal life, she'd gather girlfriends for a super soul conversation. It was always a

joke she shared because I love listening to their struggles and using the knowledge I have to share insights with them and help them see that life is way more beautiful than their minds want them to believe. That same sage impulse to teach, illuminate, and elevate has led her to public speaking and advocating for women and minorities in the tech sector. As a senior executive and primary technology leader at the Graduate Center, City University of New York, Elaine regularly shares insights, ideas, and possibilities with her team of IT managers. Building on her focus on diversity in tech and beyond,

she founded 5X Minority, an organization on a mission to make workspaces more inclusive through leadership, education, and mentoring. I come alive, Elaine offered, when I am on stage or when I answer questions that I know would help other Latinas succeed in tech like me. And I know that the sage in me is guiding me. Hey, if you enjoyed that and are curious about your own Sparkotype, grab a copy of Spark using the link in the show notes or just head to your favorite bookseller. Plus, when you order before September 21st, which is when the book is actually published, you'll get some pretty cool bonuses. Okay, on to our amazing conversation with Rev Angel. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum.

Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. We've known each other for a chunk of years now. And when I was first introduced to you through an old mutual friend of ours, you were introduced to me as a Rev Angel,

Zen Buddhist priest, and a whole bunch of other stuff after that. And we've talked and you've been friends and you've had this evolution of thought and evolution of self in a lot of really interesting ways. And I noticed over the last year or so, you've started dropping the identifiers or changing them that came after your name. And then most recently, it seems like the iteration is just Sensei. And I'm really curious about the understory there, like what's been going on. Mm-hmm. You know, in Buddhism, there is a story, it's well-known.

And the story is basically that the buddha actually there are two stories one is there's two monks and monks are not supposed to touch women and so two monks encounter a woman and there's a you know dirty like a you know sea of yuckiness. And so one monk just walks up to the woman and picks her up and carries her over this gunk and everything. And they get on the other side. And the second monk is looking just dumbstruck. He's like, what did you do? I cannot believe you did that.

And he said, what? What is the problem? He said, you picked that woman up. And he said, yeah, but I the problem? He said, he said, you picked, he said, you picked that woman up. And he said, yeah, but I picked her, put her down and you're still carrying her. So that's one story. And then the second story is this, it's a notion actually of the Buddha's teachings as like a boat and you use the boat to cross over to the shore. But when you get over to the shore, you leave the boat behind. You don't carry the boat around on your back. And so that you cross over the shore of all of discontent and pain and suffering

into a place that's more free and more liberated. And then you leave the boat behind. And so I feel like the identifiers are kind of the boat. And I'm not interested in becoming a boat maker. I don't want to be a ship builder. I don't want to institution build, nation build around the idea of Buddhism or Zen or anything. I just want to support people in igniting their passion for their own liberation and for the liberation of the people and planet and the things that they care about. And the boat gets in the way. How so? Did you feel it getting in the way for you personally? Yes. As a society, especially with this idea of experts, we really want to pigeonhole people. We really want to say, this is what you do. And now I know what podcast you should be invited to. I know what speaking you should do. I know what places you should go. And, you know, I think like doesn't fit. That's not it. That's not it. And so it ends up being this, I just put the things down, right? Like I put the woman down and I just, I'm like, great. I carried that. And that was useful. You know, for a while I thought the whole, but the whole idea of like being a Renaissance person,

you know, and that was, you know, or a polymath. And I thought like, and you just get, and she's like, oh, we've like done all of these things. So what do I do now? I just tell people I'm a polymath. And it just feels so like lackluster and not the truth. And so I just want to show up and be rather than being pigeonholed. And it has its downsides, of course, which is exactly that people don't know how to place you there, you know, or they're placing you in advance, which I think is fine. They just entered the doorway of whatever it is that they are thinking, you know, they're like, oh, she's the activist, right? Like she's the activist. She's the one that talks about spirituality and racial justice. And some people are like, but no Like she's the activist. She's the one that talks about spirituality and racial justice.

And some people like, but no, she's the Dharma teacher. And that's the lens that they come in or they're like, no, no. I was at this like conference on, on,

you know, ecology. And she was talking about the planet and making all of these, you know, relationships to like how we treat the planet, you know? And so I just like, like,

great. Walk in whatever door that you want. I'm on the other side, but I'm none of those doors. I mean, it's so interesting, right? Because you and I have also had conversations over the years about like a business, about how to actually create sustainable ways for us to go out into the world

and do the thing that we do. And like you said, on the one hand, those identifiers can make it easier for others to understand, like, what's the way that I step into relation with this person? Like, what should I, and it's to a certain extent, it's about expectations. But then again, those expectations start to become a constraint, because if you're much more expansive than that and you want to have a conversation with people that is more expansive and wide ranging, then they've said yes to an expectation and then the reality of the interaction is different and then you're

navigating a whole different dynamic there. Yeah, all the time. And especially with the, you know, the Zen priest, which it's interesting for me, actually, what I like the most is what do people pick up? Like I watch and I go, oh, what do they pick up? And so they'll start with, you know, the thing that is the, you know, most resonant or curious or something. And for me, that's fine. I think that's how we, that's how relationship happens, right? It's like, oh, I love, you know, I love the rich tones of your voice. And so that's how I'm entering into this conversation. And maybe

when we're in person with each other, you know, you know, I love the way that your eye twinkles or, you know, that you turn your head to the side and, you know, and you can fall in love with people, you know, through that portal, through that one singular thing that catches your eye. So I feel that that's actually how relationship happens. And then we use the crutch of trying to constrain the people within that, right? Which comes with it, not only the, you're no longer just getting the experience of them and allowing your relationship to unfold dynamically. Like I entered into this and then we have all of what unfolds,

but unfortunately what people then do is also impose their ideas that come from other places, right? And so then I only get asked Zen questions or Buddhist questions or racial justice in the Buddhist world. I'm like the race teacher and there's a little bit of moment of skirt blown up if I teach classic Dharma. And there's also, of course, that other funky thing where I know in the background, because this is how racial dynamics have worked and the kind of contours of white superiority and all of that is some people imagine, they dare not say it out loud,

that the only reason that I am a teacher is because of, it's sort of like affirmative action, like Buddhist, Buddhist affirmative action. And you got to be a teacher because you can't possibly be doing what I do. And so you got in on the race card. And so, you know, then we do that dance a little bit too. Yeah. I mean, especially in certain, because I can see different traditions have their cultures and their communities that have sort of been built around them in this country, at least, you know, it's different when you, you know, historically and it's different in different places. And there's a certain about, you know, set of assumptions about sort of, you know, like, who's this for and, and how do you, how do you move into and rise up through the community? And yeah, that's so

fascinating. And part of what I was curious about also is, you've had this evolution of being, evolution of thought, and you draw from so many different worlds. That part of my curiosity was, was this shedding of identifiers also to a certain extent you signaling more publicly that when you show up for me, you're going to get my unique synthesis of a vast array of different bodies of work and my own thought and experience in the world, and it's going to come out. So don't necessarily show up expecting a Zen Buddhist teaching because I may take you on a left turn

because I see things differently. And it was almost laying the foundation for the freedom to say like, this is my unique synthesis. This is my take. And I'm blending a lot of different things and bringing my own thing into it. So, and sort of like creating the freedom to step out of that and step into your own thing. Yeah, it's really bi-directional.

So at the core of it is just that I don't do ghettos at all. I can't inhabit any kind of fixedness. It gives me, you know, makes my skin, you know, feel like, you know, crawly, creepy crawly. And so it doesn't really matter. It doesn't matter if it's like, kind of like swimming in the sea of, you know, Zen, of the Zen ghetto. And, you know, I'm not using the term of ghetto in the way that we often, which we sort of like are immediately relating into socioeconomic status and largely black neighborhoods. That's not what I mean, but I mean the ghetto in the true sense of the word, like the sort of coming together of a, like a, of a likeness and,

and that you, you inhabit that, that likeness and it's kind of close and, you know, really rubbing up against each other. And so it just doesn't work for me. It's kind of close and, you know, really rubbing up against each other. And so it just doesn't work for me. It's actually never been who I am. And, you know, business, marketing, I, you know, many years ago, my first book is now 20 years ago, came out. And there is a way that you have to, you know, if you're not speaking to someone, you're not speaking to anyone, right, in marketing. And so I wore that cloak for a little while in order to facilitate that particular message and that particular conversation. And yet I'm always drawing from, you know, the many conversations.

And even in, you know, which I hadn't remembered, I was, I think even how they described being Black, which is the first book, you know, it talked about, you know, like, you know, Wu-Tang, right, a hip hop group, Wu-Tang, like meets Zen Buddhism and like that kind of mashup, because there's also on the other side, this impulse towards ownership. It's so much a part of our different cultures, and particularly these spiritual cultures. And as they've been designed, it's sort of like, okay, now you're one of us. And so we own you, lock, stock, and barrel. what I'm drawing from would somehow belong to and solely be of white Western convert Zen Buddhism is absurd that I left race behind, you know, that I left my, that I left hip hop behind, that I left misogynist hip hop behind, you know, that all of the things that I grew up in,

that I left like queer culture in the village in New York City in the 80s and 90s behind, and it doesn't come through, is absurd. And in many ways, it's more likely to happen with me as the kind of outlier, the apparent outlier of what Zen Buddhist priests look like, right? They're most often white, middle-aged, and not only male. They've done a pretty good job with that, but most often white and middle-aged. And also of a particular class, far more often middle to upper-middle class. And so then really anything that's coming out of me must be because I got it from them and from some places. And I just pushed back at that all along the way. It was really important. It's important in the sense of, you know, lineage. And it's also

important in the sense of recognizing that in so many ways that that is the nature of Black peoples, you know, in America in particular, is that we are jazz, right? We are drawing from the multiplicity of our experiences and pulling from so many things in so many ways, not only just the joyful things and wonderful things, but also the pains and the heartaches and the oppressions and the limitations imposed and that we're making music out of it, out of all of that. And that's, I think, one of our unique contributions. Yeah. I mean, so I love hearing you describe all of that. And that's, I think, one of our unique contributions. Yeah. I mean, so I love hearing you describe sort of like the way that you think through it and also the frame that you bring to it. And you brought up like all of these different influences and experiences and pieces of who you are. I remember you saying at one point, you know, pretty much

beyond the Dharma of Buddhism, there's a certain Dharmaharma of queerness. And how so much of what you know about liberation, about the process, about the path comes from queerness. And that is a part of the synthesis, the amalgam that is you. And yeah, so it's interesting to hear like okay so it's not that I don't identify with all of these it's sort of I simultaneously don't identify and identify with all everything and so much more beyond that simultaneously and the truth is I think most of us I think that's true for everyone really and I think it's the force of culture and I want to disrupt that. I want to overtly disrupt that and say, you get to be the whole of who you are. You get to bring all of these things in and you don't have to eschew this part of yourself or leave it at the door in order to belong to this community, this space, this practice, this, you know, institution, this so on, and that we're all enriched for that. We're all more enriched. And, you know, I have this whole theory about, as many people do, you know, about the divisions and like what really underlies

the divisions. And for me, a major part of that is this allowing of our complexity and that the more that I can signal to people that this complexity, that my not getting boxed into the, you know, like black Yoda, like I'm like the black queer Yoda, like Zen and like, no, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to riff on things and I'm going to use the cadences that come from, you know, words to things and that I don't have to sit, you know, quietly, stoically, you know, in the Zen cool way. And I do that too. And that all of them are of the same, this, of this one piece. And I love that you say it because I say it all the time. The balance of that is that I belong to, you know, no thing and everything, right? That the entry is into everything and it allows me to move freely amongst things, which, you know, hysterically in a very backwards way is also a very Zen concept. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations,

iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot?

Flight risk. So here's my curiosity around this. So I was the kid when I was younger where I could move freely between any group, but I wasn't a part of any group. I'd never felt like I belonged to any one thing. And there was a pain of isolation, even though I was kind of accepted. I was fine in any one group, you know, like, and, and I was, you know, I could, but I was never the person who got called when the groups came together or did something. I was never. And, and I know, you know, like having spoken about this with you over the years, it seems like you had a similar experience.

Although more isolated and more pushed out. More isolated. Yeah, more isolated. I was really painfully aware that I didn't belong. Do you feel like that experience or that feeling continues to this day to inform the way that you think through your ideas, the way that you bring yourself to the world, and also the way that you offer ideas and practices and paths to others? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I want to extend that runway to the young angel that didn't belong in all of the spaces that I am in. And I think it's more that I feel through it, like I feel it, right? It's like I feel, it's like, tilt the words this way and this way and this way and like turn it like prismatically. So I think I look back on it and I go, oh, I speak prismatically. I'm turning this slightly, slightly, slightly so that people can find their way to that angle, that little angle. Jon Kabat-Zinn talks about this orthogonal rotation of consciousness. And I think about that idea a lot in terms of how I language things, which is to say, you know, I'll run off to the extremes and then nuance in between. And it's to break it, right? It's to break it of the binaries and that gives people permission to find their way in. And so that absolutely lives with me. It's not in the background. It is in the foreground. And I feel it. I feel the, even when we're zooming everything, the person that might be left out and then tilt you know, like tilt the language like a little bit, give them an entry point. Yeah.

So I've heard you talking in different areas and different domains to different audiences. And one of the things I've always marveled at is that you're so, you are so intentional with language and you have this capacity to be stunningly frank and honest and direct, and yet at the same time, expansive and inclusive. You can be in a room full of hundreds of white people and have and facilitate a conversation, a retreat, a day, combined with the way that you're so intentional about language that somehow creates this moment where hard truths seem to land. They seem to bypass defenses that I've seen so often go up. And I wonder if you've, I've been in rooms where I felt that, where you're sharing. And I wonder if you, while you're sharing, feel that same thing.

Well, you know, I feel the people, right? I am embracing, you know, individual people that I am so certain are as trapped in something that is not our essential nature. And so I want them to be liberated from that. And I hold them in that space of like, I want this for you and this is your own work, right? And so this, like, for me, it feels like I'm embracing and I hold the intention to embrace. I think I benefit from, and this is, you know,

has all kind of complex layers to it, of course, but I also, I don't want a thing from them. I want something for them. And that shift in a power dynamic is really critical. It's, you know, a combination of allowing myself to, you know, unfold and mature and create enough of a mixed up kind of, you know, economic viability that doesn't rely on anything. I'm very intentional about, you know, I don't hold like a job. I haven't held a job, you know, since I was 22. I walked out of an office. I work for Essence Magazine and I walked it. I was like, I will never work for someone again. And so I organized myself to not be, which has that quality of loneliness, right? Like an aloneness to not be dependent on any soul, institution or individual for my livelihood, which has its precariousness, of course, as well and lack of security in ways. And so all of this then develops more practice. It's like, okay, I have to shift my

notion of what security is. It's like this movement of things together. So I have to rethink what security is if I want to be free to say what I need to say and to create the space that I need to create and to step into a conversation with people in which I don't want something from them. And that allows me to be able to speak frankly and clearly and directly and also to hold them, you know, really from love. And I say that and people might say like, oh, it's like, I don't mean like, because there's plenty of like, don't particularly like you, but love, right? That real expansive universal sense of you are caught.

We are caught. And I get it. And I get that this is challenging. And I can't imagine how painful it is. But I can sit with you here while you walk through it. The ability to access that, I'm curious about it. I've heard it described, especially in spiritual traditions, from people who do work around social justice as being resourced. And that may be through spiritual practice, that may be through

contemplative practice, that may be through study. Does it feel like, when I think about the word resourced, I feel like it's, to me, it's like, okay, I am equipped with a tool belt for my heart to be okay as I move through something. but also resourced in what you just described in the capacity to actually hold love at that level. I have to imagine there's got to be a well of something that allows you to do that, that I wonder if many people have. I think we all have it, whether we are tapped into it and can get out of the way, you know, do the labor of getting out of the way sufficiently to allow it to flow. And that you said well is exactly like resource that way, right? We sort of live in a commodified society where resources go

to kind of our financial and, I mean, you can even say the word resources and people can feel a sense of scarcity. I invite folks to take a moment right now and see, you know, if that word even, right, brings up scarcity. And so I think of resourced or resourcing, right? It's like I'm resourcing. And that for me connotes a channeling, a tapping into, right, the well of the love of the whole universe. It's not my love. It's not personal love. It's not like I'm having love. Like, I love you, Jonathan, right? And there's a personal love to it. But that kind of space is a bigger love. I'm surprised by it. Believe me, I have moments being like, whoa, that's wild. But it's being able to be tapped in. And when I feel, if I feel, when and if I feel myself getting in the way, like angel getting in the way of that channel of resourcing, right? That flow, that movement, that energy, that current. I have to have sufficient practice to, first of all, to recognize like, oh, you're slipping in there and getting in the way.

And to know what that feels like, right? In order to see all the signals of it and then to move. I have to be able to do both, both to recognize it and also to take action. And to do that again and again and again and again, that that critical practice is what I think makes the difference, what I know makes the difference for me. And I think because many of us inhabit a society of ends, right? Like we get to the end of it. That's one of the things that challenge people because it's like we want to get spiritual, right?

And now that we're spiritual, we think we can just ride the little spiritual horse into the sunset. Right, it's like check that box. Yeah, check that box. And then our stuff creeps up on us, you know, dude says something cranky. And am I going to keep riding that same spiritual horse? Or have I tripped on myself and gotten in the way and got my back up? And now I'm ready to draw my sword. And that sword is not, it's not a liberatory sword. You know, it's like you hurt me, you wounded me, and I want to hurt you back sword. And if you don't know the difference of what you're wielding, because spiritual power is a power. It is a power. And, you know, like with great power comes great responsibility.

And for me, the responsibility is to be really, really attentive to what it is I'm wielding and for what purpose, towards what end. And there's only ever one end for me. Which is? Liberation. Self-awareness has got to be a huge part of that process for all of us. And, you know, because you can't answer any of those questions unless you've developed the practice of tapping in. Like you said, attentiveness, you know, there's no attentiveness without some level of awareness that reminds you to check in, that reminds you to ask the question, like, where is this coming from? What's happening inside of me? What's happening outside of me, what's happening outside of me. And I wonder if we're so often offered practices and things to do and exercises and prompts,

but I feel like outside of really spiritual tradition, more than anything else, we are not often offered or invited to say, okay, we also, for all of this to actually work, we need to cultivate a level of ability to tap into self-awareness on a persistent basis, or at least on a pretty regular basis to actually know what's going on so that we can understand how to respond in a way that we want to, and that's constructive rather than destructive. And yet that deeper practice, the practices that would slowly over time cultivate the ability to be more self-aware

on a persistent basis, I feel like those are so often not addressed. And I wonder sometimes whether it's because exercises, prompts, workbooks, things like this, there's a beginning and there's an end and we can set aside our 23 minutes for the day and do this thing. But the self-awareness practice is it's a long game and we struggle and we're all really, really bad at it in the beginning and often for a really

long time. Not that there's a good or bad, but it's just, we set expectations about like, oh, I'm going to sit and this is going to happen. And 10 weeks from now, after I do this program, I will have had a 73% increase in my awareness capacity. And it just doesn't work that way. And we're wired, even if we're introduced to these practices, we're so often wired to just not stay with them long enough for them to cultivate themselves within our beings and on a level that would actually provide utility. But it's so important because it's like, it's the foundation for everything. It's essential and it's so important because it's the foundation for everything. It's essential and it's not enough.

Yeah, totally. It's essential and it's not enough in that it's not captured in a moment. So it's essential to be able to access self-awareness. And then self-awareness a minute ago is not self-awareness now. It is a constant unfolding. You know, during the pandemic, I was really contending with that, you know, and contending with the felt sense of, you know, anxiety. And I developed a practice that I have been, it's something that I had been developing for a while, but I just brought it to a group of people because, you know, I felt like people needed something to work with themselves.

And we had no idea that we'd be still doing it. So we started this sit called the No Big Deal Sit. And I introduced this, what I call point meditation, because that same thing that you're saying, it's like, I was like, what are we doing here? You know, we have, at least in the Zen tradition, right? Like, you know, Buddhist 50 years, 50 plus years, some of the big institutions, you know, Western Zen, Western Buddhist institutions are, you know, come into these practices as, you know, teenagers or some of them even, you know, more mature, late 20s, excuse me, not teenagers, late 20s. And it's like, I'm not getting it, right? Right? So there's not a goal. And there's, you know, we're doing it because there is a purpose. It's not a goal, but there's a purpose. It's like, we're a little missing the mark, and I really contemplated that. And I came to the, I'll say the pith conclusion is that we give people all sorts of practices, but underneath, underneath, underneath, we haven't fortified people's ability and commitment,

the commitment first, and then the ability to come back to themselves. There's so much fear in inhabiting what it means to truly be with yourself. There's pain, there's trauma, right? There's really good reasons to simply be uncomfortable in the body. And for me, so many of the original sins, if you will, of all sorts of oppressive systems, situations, is the cutting away, the cutting off of people's ability to come back to themselves and trust themselves and trust the wh around it. I feel, I'll just say, you know, in the contemporary language, takes too damn long for people to really develop that essential thing without other layers that eventually distract, right? And so there's like naming things and there's nothing wrong with

naming things, but the naming things is not the thing. It's the essential ability to be able to trust abiding within ourselves. It's not even really a meditation, Frankly, meditation is kind of like, it's like just this natural skill of what it means to be human and what it means to be alive at a very core, core, core level. And all of, everything else is a layer on top of it, right? All of these other things, wounds and pains and so on. But if I can't trust being myself, I can't trust my experience, then I'm lost and everything else is corrupted. Everything else is corruptible. And so I just built the practice based on that, right? This sort of like super clean, super straightforward thing. You don't need a meditation cushion. You don't need a bell.

You don't need a, and the most important't need a bell. You don't need a, and the most important thing is that it's transportable to like, I'm sitting here with you. And that practice is alive and present for me right now, rather than there's the formal practice, but that I'm actively engaged that unfolds as part of how I operate this returning, you know, this returning to myself. I love that phrase, returning to myself. If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs.

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You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. It's funny, too, because I think about, you know, I've had a sitting practice for probably going on a dozen years now. But it's like you said, it was never about that.

It's not about how it's still I get on the mat or how open or compassionate or how much I knew myself on the mat. It's not about making sure that I'm getting all the extra stars on my meditation app or I'm continuing my streak. Although I have to tell you that I am as much a Pavlovian person as anyone else. Like I identify something and I'm like hooked.

No, there's no shame there. You know, one of the apps like absolutely saved my relationship. I just like, that's a whole thing. Yeah. But, you know, it's like, I think we sometimes lose sight of the fact that like, we do that so that at least in my experience so that over time it just starts to and maybe with intention it happens more readily and more quickly it just starts to infuse our presence as we move through the day and we can like you said keep

returning keep returning keep returning and it almost it becomes less of an intentional thing and more of just a habit of being um that we returning to this way, this place of openness, curiosity, awareness. And that's why, to me, it's not about increasing like, okay, I'm going to go from 25 and over the next 18 months, I'm going to go up to 35 minutes every day. But we live in a culture, I think, where that's a part of it. I think what it is, it's not just this habit of being, it is being. We remember that actually that is being. That is being, that abiding, that self-abiding, that being with ourselves, that returning to ourselves, that is being. And the other things have corrupted our sense of being. And then we conflate the other things for who we are and we get confused.

And so we exist in this kind of confusion. So what I love about it most is that it's not an accomplishment, it's a returning. It's not an acquisition of like, we get this way, but actually we remember who we are and we remember who we are as we are and allow for the complexity and develop the courage to be with the complexity of who we are because obviously it's not all pretty you know and it's not all pleasant and that fundamental okayness is absolutely critical to the you, we're saying this word like spiritual life. It's like to the life life, to the living life, to the liberated life, that sense of like a fundamental okayness. Like, yeah, I'm scared in my boots here and underneath the underneath it, like, I'm okay. Not I agree, not I wish this for myself or the situation, but an okayness

that is the, I feel like it's the wellspring of an appreciation of life and everything life is offering us. Yeah. I mean, you referenced that in some of the things that keep us from this returning are that sometimes that natural state of presence harbors a lot of trauma, a lot of trauma, shame, wounding, pain, hurt, a lot of like everything. And, you know, it's saying yes to all of that and being with it. And that is terrifying for so many. And it's terrifying. You know, I think I'm going to go on a limb and say that I think that we're shaped that most natural state is to actually be with life in the way that, you know, dogs scratch behind the ears and our gift and also our Achilles heel, shapes us in such a way that we kind of have this reference, right, this referential location that we get to where we turn back around and look at our experience and go, good or bad experience? Like, was that okay or not okay?

Actually, it was just a sensation at the end of the day. It was just a sensation. And we get told by society our sorts of correlating our sensations with meaning is where we get all messed up. It's like, oh, I had that sensation. That's an uncomfortable. What's actually, can you get underneath it? It's a vibration. You know, it's actually, can you get underneath it? It's a vibration, you know, it's a, it's weird. It's unfamiliar, but, but that, but that it's bad, right. That you correlate

it with like, and that's, that's what fear is, you know, and, or this is, you know, this is now a reason to be anxious and somebody is coming to get me, or this person is going to do this thing, or we're going to have this argument again, you know, whatever it is, that we've been shaped, right? And so some of the things that, you know, Jonathan, you say like, oh, I'll say something that is challenging, but it's been shaped to be challenging, right? Conversations, for instance, about race, that's shaping, that's a social shaping, right? And we're far more able when we spoke, you know, years ago in the last podcast, we're far more able for us to even say the words like white supremacy and not like all like fall out, you know, and like go run out of the room screaming because we, our social, I would say,

our social biological nervous systems have been toned to be able to manage conversations that we were shaped to not be able to manage. So culturally, there was a shaping in the society to make conversations about race, right? Conversations about, you know, about misogyny, about like how we deal with women, like to make them not okay, like outside of the, what is that window, right? Like the, something with the window of like what's acceptable to talk about.

And it's by design that there are some conversations that like, here's the facts, this is what it is, this is what happened 400 years ago, this happened or, you know, 250 years ago, or this is what it is, this is what happened 400 years ago, this happened, or 250 years ago, or this is what we did to the indigenous people, and that we can't handle that conversation in our physiological body that gets so uncomfortable. That's shaped.

That's not organic. That's shaped, right? And so then when you get to realize that, it's like, oh, I don't belong to myself. I don't really belong to myself. I've been told and it's been signaled and it's been whispered and it's been repeated over and over again where I should feel comfortable, capable, able to meet life and where I should shrink away. And I think of nothing else that part of this spiritual journey that was really about like

liberating ourselves, you know, not, not, I mean, if you want to go to ascend to, you know, to Sheeta Heaven or the ninth, you know, hemisphere or something. I think that's not my business. But to live a life, you know, free and comfortable and at ease in your body with all of the trials and tribulations that life comes with, that we have to turn the corner of a commitment to be willing to meet life as it is. And then to practice, right, unfurling the shaping that has made simply meeting life uncomfortable for us. To unpack that.

And once you get a, it's like, oh, that's not mine. That's not mine. That thing, when you talk about that particular topic, whatever it is, race is kind of like a big one, obviously. Money, right? We get crazy about conversations about money, like real conversations about money, all sorts of things. Those quote unquote social taboos, they've been shaped. And it means that you don't own your life. You don't belong to yourself. And when you kind of get underneath enough of those, you're like, I want to own my own damn life. I want to belong to myself. And we turn some kind of corner. And I think that the way that we say, oh, like that's hard work, like that's hard work, it changes. It changes. And I wonder if a lot of that is this primal need to belong at scale,

to belong to something beyond ourselves. And we feel like we have to, because if we don't, then we're effectively outcast and we don't survive. And it's this shape or imprint that's been put into us. So I wonder how much that plays a role. And when you use the phrase belong to ourselves, that feels to me like an unlock key, if in fact that earlier assumption is true. It is absolutely true. I mean, through time, that was essential, right? We're really like frail creatures, like our nervous system's like right on the edges of our skin.

And we couldn't survive, you know, the will to live. They say in the Yoga Sutras, like even the wise ones cling to life. And so the will to live is one of the things that, you know, make us who we are. And so we develop strategies for being able to survive. And of course, we couldn't survive without our tribe, you know, as early human beings or what we've become as homo sapiens. We couldn't survive. But our brains don't do a good job at differentiating those survival necessities from the, you know, being on the soccer team, it's not discerning that way.

And so we have the same existential feeling and existential crisis. It feels the same in our bodies, obviously mediated in terms of levels of intensity, but it's essentially the same. Like we basically get up to situations where like, I'm going to die. And then we're searching immediately for the strategy to not die. And then you go further along and we're preventing the possibility of even feeling that feeling.

And so now we're giving up parts of ourselves in order to belong to that tribe and to make sure that that saber-toothed tiger is not going to be able to get us because somebody else is going to club them and then we'll have dinner. All of that is in us. And so the belonging, my theory is that one of the reasons that the core oppressions of our times and our human existence and in our own society, race and so on, is developmental need has been corrupted. And as a result of that, and our inability to see it and to recognize it for what it is, you said it's like, so we allow ourselves to be shaped. Because belonging is so critical. It's so necessary. And I feel one of the mistakes that we make is when we have conversations about race and gender and misogyny and patriarchy is

we suggest that this is mere ideology. And it's not. It's bio-sociological and physiological. Like we are literally shaped in our, not just our heads and our thoughts, right? Our own feeling state and how we respond to, you know, situations where we get, you know, sweaty palms have been shaped. And because we make it an ideology, and this goes back to the conversation about being in a room with like hundreds of white folks, I'm like, oh, you're caught. You've been shaped. And I want you to at least, at the very least, get into a place where you can be able to make your own decisions. And I hold people in the space of grace, if you will, that you at least deserve to have an awareness that you have been shaped and you are caught and that your decisions are therefore not your own,

actually, which is really difficult for us to grasp in a hyper-individualist society, that so many of us are actually not making decisions that are our own at all. And I'll just say that, you know, and this notion of belonging to ourselves, which is just so, talk about like not a Zen, Buddhist thing, we're always talking about no self. And so I'm just all kind of, you know, messing up the program there by saying, we have to have an own belonging. We have to have a belonging to ourselves as a fundamental starting point of being able to avail ourselves of any other kinds of spiritual practice, development, formation. Otherwise, we're subject to being

corrupted beyond measure. Yeah, that lands so true. As you're describing it, I had this really bizarre vision of a contortionist trying to fit into like a tiny cube. And then like, you know, everything is in the box, except, you know, like one shoulder and one arm. And there's just no way to make it fit in. So what do you do? You cut it off because then it fits and now you've taken the shape, but what you've given up is a limb, you know, and that shows up in all of our lives as, you know, in all different ways, you know, that's just metaphorically, but, you know, it's when you ask that question, you know, like, what have I stifled? What have I left behind? What have I excised from myself in order to take the shape?

Yeah, I think those are the questions that get us closer sometimes. Yeah. And I think that when we're up against the question of, you know, broader social issues, you know, the limb is our humanity. And that's what we leave behind we we leave behind and i don't i don't mean that just you know colloquially i mean we we leave behind our innate organic responses of compassion to other people suffering we leave behind our sense of you know care and concern and connection for people because they don't look like us.

That limits our humanity. And so I always say, you know, don't go and, you know, take up like race training or, you know, don't go deal with like the misogyny or patriarchy, you know, that you know that inhabits your life or, you know, whatever, transphobia, whatever it is. Don't go do it for them. Do it for yourself. Do it because you are committed to reclaiming that limb of humanity that got cut off for you to fit in that box of the corporate office or your family, you know, your dad, your dad's dad, dad's dad's dad, your mom, you know, reclaim it for yourself. And that doesn't mean that that doesn't come without loss, right? Because depending on where people are, they may not be ready, right?

They've been shaped to. And so they may not be ready to go on that journey with you. And a lot of times we have to leave. I'm not saying everybody should run away from their family, but you have to change your proximity, right? To shift your proximity, that kind of leaving. But simultaneously that the healing that you can do for yourself is something that imparts to your whole lineage, to your whole family, to the people that have been trapped in ways of harming women or being egregiously racist or so on and so forth. And that is perhaps the most promising thing, is that A, it doesn't have to be everybody. We don't have to go and collect everyone into this

great project of fixing everything because that's what happens. Then we're sort of imposing and we're trying to fix people. But rather we can do this weird move of both allowing our own personal practice and liberation and unfolding and willingness to meet ourselves and to reclaim our own humanity that it unto itself, and this is what happens from the beginning, we are gifting that to the collective. So we gift ourselves. So paradoxically, this belonging to ourselves allows us to belong and gift to the collective. Yeah. And it's almost like if even any sense of belonging that you have without that is, it's actually not you who's belonging. It's the humanity divorced shape

that you've assumed that has now been accepted into the collective, which at the end of the day does nobody any good. In fact, it does everybody harm. That's right. And it's, you know, oh, you know, I could, I feel it like the, oh, in my chest of facing that. Like turning to face that. And we all have our moments of, you know, that thing that we hear. And maybe this is one of them that you're like, right, right. And then it will replicate itself. It's been like the Toyota syndrome.

You're going to see it everywhere. You're going to be reminded of like, oh yeah, I'm giving this up here and I'm giving this up here and I'm giving this up here. So I advise you to be gentle with yourself. And in a society that has taught us, you know, in hyper individual terms, that everything is our fault, right? It's like, it's all ours and it's all individual choice and so on. That is not, you know, that you have been shaped. And so it's not your fault and it is your responsibility that as you recognize these places that you have left a piece of yourself behind, that you are the one that then has the responsibility. While it's not your fault, you are the one that has the responsibility to reclaim yourself so that you can give yourself more wholly to your lover, to your parents, to your children, to your partner, to your family, even if they don't understand you. Even if they don't understand and they don't agree that you're giving your whole self is a gift back to them. That feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. I asked you this question a long time ago,

but I'm going to ask it to you again because apparently I've heard people change. Once in a while. As we sit together in this cross-country container of a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? For me, to live a good life really means to be able to return to myself with grace, with ease, with consistency, and allow for the whole of who I am to unfold. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation we had with Bishop Michael Curry about the healing power of love. You'll find a link to Bishop Curry's episode in the show notes. And even if you don't listen now, go ahead and click and download so it's ready to play when you're on the go. And of course, if you haven't already done so,

be sure to follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. Oh, and if you appreciate the work we've been doing here at Good Life Project, then go ahead and check out my new book, Spark. It reveals some incredibly eye-opening things to you about your very favorite subject, you, and then it shows you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Thanks so much. See you next time. Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

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