Good Life Project - Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis | A Fierce Love

Episode Date: November 11, 2021

The Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis is an author, Activist, and Public Theologian, the first woman and first Black Senior Minister at Middle Collegiate Church, which is a multiracial, incredibly welcoming, and inclusive congregation in the Lower East Side of New York City, which dates to 1628. Growing up in church in the South Side of Chicago, the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., when she was nine incited what would become a lifelong devotion to activism and social justice. Graduating school, then spending a decade working in the corporate world, she felt called to redefine how she would step into her own exploration of faith, attending Princeton Theological Seminary, then devoting herself to urban ministry, with the intention of reimagining what faith, church, and community could be. Eventually becoming a leader in Middle Church, Rev. Lewis has been instrumental in bringing together what she calls a “multiethnic rainbow coalition of love, justice, and worship that rocks her soul,” and has remained a leading voice in activism, with her work have featured by the TODAY Show, MSNBC, The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and Washington Post, among many others. She is the creator of the MSNBC online show, Just Faith and the PBS show, Faith and Justice, in which she led important conversations about culture and current events. Her podcast, Love.Period., is produced by the Center for Action and Contemplation. And her new book, Fierce Love: A Bold Path to Ferocious Courage and Rule-Breaking Kindness That Can Heal the World, is a deep exploration of faith, race, justice and transformation, bundled with exercises that invite you in a path of personal growth, activism and collective elevation.You can find Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis at: Website | Instagram | Love.Period. podcastIf you LOVED this episode:You’ll also love the conversations we had with Bishop Michael Curry about love as a path to reconciliation and healing.My new book Sparked.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I used to, as a young preacher, think my job was to convert people to something, and the only conversion project I'm in is to convert people to love. My guest today, the Rev. Dr. Jackie Lewis, is an author, activist, and public theologian, the first woman and first Black senior minister at Middle Collegiate Church, which is a multiracial, incredibly welcoming and inclusive congregation in the Lower East Side of New York City, which dates back to 1628. So growing up in church in the South Side of Chicago, the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., when she was nine, it incited what would become a lifelong devotion to activism and social justice.

Eventually graduating school and then spending a decade working in the corporate world. She felt called to redefine how she would step into her own exploration of faith, attending Princeton Theological Seminary, and then devoting herself to urban ministry with the intention of reimagining what faith and church and community could be. Eventually becoming a leader in middle church, Rev. Lewis has been instrumental in bringing together what she calls a multi-ethnic rainbow coalition of love, justice, and worship that rocks her soul and has remained a leading voice in activism with her work being featured on Today Show, MSNBC, New York Times, Wall Street

Journal, Washington Post, and so many other places. She's the creator of the MSNBC online show, Just Faith, and the PBS show, Faith and Justice, where she led important conversations about culture and current events. Her podcast, Love Period, is produced by the Center for Action and Contemplation. And her new book, Fierce Love, is this deep exploration of faith, race, justice, transformation, bundled with exercises that really invite you into a path of personal growth and activism and collective elevation. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. his good life project.

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available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not.

Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him.

Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. gonna die don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk excited to dive in explore thank you i know you're in new york i am uh in boulder colorado right now after spending my entire life in new york city we came out here last year in september how do you feel about that you like it we're trying to figure it out to be honest yeah we're um you know there's there's no matter where you go you you know, like you've got to waste sort of like all the different things. I love being able to just vanish into the mountains in the afternoon and go. That's like my, that's where I touch stone, that and the water.

So, but we'll see. We'll see where we land. But I know New York has been in an interesting moment, well, for a long time, but also, you know, when we left in September one I left in March of 2020. You know, my husband and I bought a house in New Jersey about 12 years ago, about an hour from here. And we bought it because I sold an apartment and I thought, well, maybe we'll retire there. And during COVID, it just became our safe shell, you know? So then you come back in the city and it would be dead here, right, Jonathan? I mean, it would just be like, what's on in the east village the east village is dead so now

it feels a little foreign when i'm in here in this apartment which is where i am now i feel a little more anxious i feel a little more tense. It's a nice-sized apartment for a New York East Village apartment, but I feel like I'm in a hotel room. It feels weird. So we're working our way back to, like, what are our New York things? Like, let's go to the Met. Let's, you know, we're New Yorkers, so let's go do things. Yeah, it is a weird time.

And I mean, thrown into the middle of all of this and December of 2020, you know, like in the middle of the pandemic, middle charts, all of a sudden the building next door to it goes on fire. And this place, which has been in existence, you know, like this sanctuary for what, a hundred and something years, that particular building? Since 1892, that building. And it's burned down. It's gone. It totally does make you feel like you're out of place. It really does.

Yeah. It totally does make you feel like you're out of place. It really does. I can't even imagine you discovering that this place... I'm actually curious, how did you learn about it? It was a Saturday morning, and my granddaughter, Ophelia, was staying with me and John out here in Jersey. Her brother was sick so we snatched her from her parents in Philly to separate the kids and she's just magical. She was a magical two-year-old then and we were comforting her because she was missing her brother and missing her parents and we went to bed really early. We went to bed when she went to bed, put her to bed, eight o'clock, phone's off. Five o'clock in the morning, I hear my phone buzzing. So I guess I had left the ringer on and it's buzzing, buzzing, buzzing. I wake up and it is one of my dear friends from the church screaming and crying. The church is on fire. And I said, the church, you know, the church is on fire. And I wake up John with my scream. My church, she says,

our church. Turn on the news. And we turn on the news and it's just a nightmare we can't believe how hot the flames are how engulfed the building is and immediately I turn on my ringer and now my colleague Amanda's calling and so-and-so's calling and John's got the baby so I've got to get a car so I say order me a car because from here you know who

knows and they do and within you know 45 minutes I don't know what kind of magical car it was but I was in a car on the way to the city crying talking to people crying crying, and thinking, what kind of pastoring do you do right now? And I just was praying, and I thought, well, this fire isn't going to kill revolutionary love. And I say that out loud, and then I text it to somebody, and it feels like the comforting message is, we can't believe that this is unbelievable tragedy and this fire will not destroy us. And we were in church the next morning, you know, doing digital church again.

People came in like sat Shiva, I would say, at the building and just tons of people from the neighborhood and from the church. And we just watched the building burn together. And while our building was burning, our neighbors were smoked out in this women's prison association. And our members were helping them like, oh, let's go shopping. Let's help them get food and stuff. So it was a really incredibly selfless day

and indelibly imprinted on your heart kind of day. Yeah, I mean, how could it not be? That alone would be just stunning on so many levels and horrifying. It's so hard to deal with. And then in the context of the fact that this is also happening at a moment in time where people are feeling isolated from each other, where they're feeling they don't have a place to be with each other and they're turning they're looking to turn to community in an odd way i sometimes wonder when i hear about moments like this and experiences like this whether it's almost like the next thing well it can't get worse than this and then the next thing and then they can't get worse than this and then the next thing and yet somehow these become these catalyzing moments that bring the community not further apart, but closer together. And it sounds like

that's a lot of what was going on. It's true. You know, I left a staff meeting, a worship staff meeting to come join you in this conversation. And I was just looking ahead at, at the anniversary of this fire and thinking what kind of moment will we have to help people own the whole thing. I mean, the COVID thing, we were really blessed in terms of just, we shut down so fast in March of 2020 and we distanced ourselves.

We loved our people by distancing ourselves. We had very few, very few casualties in our community. Relatively few people in our community got sick. And the ones who got sick were covered. We lost some grandfathers and some, you know, one member lost a brother and a husband. But this whole year, like all of it, you know, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor and George Floyd and all of the names we don't say that were casualties to our nation's inability grapple with its white supremacist past and the insurrection in January and this just whole pattern of hate speech and anti-Asian violence and immigration violence. It was a nightmare

these last 18 months, almost two years. And so how do we wake up from that together? And how do we, what do we want to be? Who do we want to be together? I think is the question before us. You use the phrase revolutionary love, and I want to circle back to that. But before we do, I want to take a little bit of a step back in time. I mean, we've been talking about this place, Middle Church, or like more fully Middle Collegiate Church, which has been around in New York forever in the East Village. And for those who are not New Yorkers, the East Village is kind of this fascinating universe inside of New York. It's like its own special little place where it's like everybody comes together from all walks of life. And the church really reflects that in so many ways. I remember, it is interesting. I've never actually been

there, but when I started reading about it and learning about it, it brought me back to an experience I had years ago at Glide Memorial Church in San Francisco. I had a friend of mine, Vernon Bush, who was singing in the choir there. And I went one Sunday morning and I'm Jewish, but like, I love just visiting all sorts of different traditions and places of worship. And there are homeless people sort of like sprawled across the steps. You know, there were people who were like in extraordinary suits. There were like the celebrity in the odd corner. It was like literally every person, every walk of life, every race, every socioeconomic, everyone was in this space joyfully and openly together.

And it was so powerful. And it sounds like that is really, that is the ethos of middle church as well. Yes, it is. I only recently started hearing our name differently. You know, the collegiate church is the oldest church in North America, the oldest continuous church in North America. And middle is the oldest of the oldest church. So why were we called middle? Because there was a South church and they were going to build a North church. And so we were the middle church, but it is really true that people meet in the middle. We're progressive, we're left. But we meet in the middle. Black, white, Asian, Latinx, indigenous, poor, very wealthy, struggling toddlers and octogenarians. Every gender representation, every sexual orientation.

And, you know, lawyers and jazz musicians, you know, teachers and truck drivers. It is indeed the reign of God on earth, the tikkun olam expression, interfaith, and beautiful, beautiful in all of its diversity and like worship that is cirque de worship you know artsy it's a great place it sounds like it um you landed there in an interesting way also yeah so you were brought up mostly, it sounds like, in the South Side of Chicago. Dad, uncle, aunt, part of the musical organism of church, had an experience when Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated when you were about nine years old that shook you. Your neighborhood in particular ended up being a dangerous place to be for a moment in time. And it seems like it awakened

a calling in you to really devote yourself to moving and acting and speaking against racism and poverty, which it sounds like there was something awakened in you at this early age. And yet, as so often happens with us, we move through these ways where, okay, so this seed has been planted, but it's not entirely ready to take the lead in my life yet. And it sounds like part of that for you was also this, and I'm so curious about this, this notion that, well, the way that it would come out, especially younger in life, would be in some way stepping into ministry, in some way stepping into a role where you could speak and lead. But in the tradition where you found a home, that wasn't really something that was presented to you as an option. That's right. Yeah. I grew up in a Christian family and my parents were from the South and they were Baptist, but they weren't Southern Baptist, but they were from the South and Baptist.

And they had what I didn't know then was a conservative view about women's roles in the church. You know, women aren't going to preach. So the first time I said, I think there's something stirring in me to do this work, my dad said, that's not what women do. Okay. Other leaders along the way, a woman named Valerie, older black lady in my Presbyterian church who took me around with her to meetings and got me hooked up with Cesar Chavez and, you know, farm workers. I was like nine. Okay, let's go marching. My parents didn't get the preach part, but they really set me up to adopt cows with the Heifer Project and to march for March of Dimes and hunger. So in a way, they were fanning the activist in me. And then, you

know, life was good about giving me real life experiences and corporate world and stuff that I think makes me a better pastor, just me, than if I had gone to seminary right out of college, that I had some real bumps and twists and turns that are just as much part of my exegetical work, the stuff of my sermons and writing, as is the biblical text. So in a way, I'm grateful that there was a deterrent to me jumping right in. I got to wrestle a little bit before I went to school. Yeah. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era,

dive into Peloton workouts that work with you. From meditating at your kid's game to mastering a strength program, they've got everything you need to keep knocking down your goals. No pressure to be who you're not. Just workouts and classes to strengthen who you are. So no matter your era, make it your best with Peloton. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required.

Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. I'm curious what drew you because a decade or so passes where you're out in the working world having all these experiences and somewhere around the age of 30 you get called back to Princeton

to pursue your MDiv was it a growing awakening or growingning, or was there a moment? Was there something that happened? Probably a couple of moments, which is maybe true for all of us. The thing that turns you toward the thing that you're supposed to do maybe is an accumulation of moments. One moment was being at camp as a teenager and, you know, in Michigan, beautiful camp, noticing that the older teenagers were wilding and having a great time and

being kind of a goody two shoes and leaving them out on the beach to wild and having a mentor say, you never leave anybody behind. That's not what we we do and i really do believe that my theology is so deeply baked into that never leave anyone behind uh so you see the king's murder the feeling of being catalyzed and traumatized that camp time and then going to church with a friend when I'm 29 saying, I think I'm called to ministry. And I'd been saying that to like shaking hands of pastors, you know, hi, how did you know when you were called? And this time I shook the hand of the pastor, Jerry Cooper. And said, I just want to say, I feel like I'm called to ministry. Can we talk about it? And he was like, sure, let's have lunch right now. And said he could see it on me. I thought, oh my goodness, like just to be in the right place at the right time where someone says,

I can see it on you. Oh, I love giving that gift to the young people. I see you being you. Yep. That's it. That was great. That was so foundational to just be seen as called. So powerful. When we have someone in our lives that somehow wanders in or we wander into their orbit just at that moment when you're ready, they see something in you that no human being ever validates, another human being, of course, but in some way just reflects back to you, becomes a mirror to you, that there is this deeper truth in you and maybe it's time to step into it. Do you feel like even if you hadn't had that moment with that one person, that this would have happened somewhere around then, no matter what?

I think so. And, you know, I'm a Presbyterian, so I guess I'm supposed to believe in predestination. I don't really. But I do believe that the story that our life is supposed to believe in predestination. I don't really, but I do believe that the story that our life is supposed to tell is wanting to be told and we'll find a way to be told that Jonathan, I could have been a clergy or a lawyer or an artist maybe to tell the story in my life, to do the life thing. But in the end, this path of producing a worship show every Sunday, which I love, and counseling people and listening to people

and writing and doing public theology, is so many of the gifts I have being able to be put in a place. I think one time my dad said, well, I think the other thing you could have done is you could have done theater, right? Maybe, maybe. But, you know, here we are. It is the purpose that was mine to work for love as a public ethic, as a transforming ethic in the world. How I would have done it,

I think circumstances colluded to make it be this, but my purpose was to do love and it would have happened. That's beautiful. I know after your MDiv, you end up in Trenton, part of worship for, I guess, seven, eight years or so. Yeah. Go back, pursue your PhD in psych and religion. Interestingly, the dissertation that you pursue is how leaders grow multi-ethnic communities that can combat racism and poverty. So this through line is just building and building and building for you.

It becomes the central, central devotion. So it feels like there has been this through line for you since the time that you were a young kid, where faith, advocacy, activism, and also a really devout intention around justice. They seem like there's no way for, for you they are not different things that just come together.

They're all one in the same. From the outside looking in, it feels like that. Is that what it feels like to you from the inside out? That's such a very insightful and thoughtful question. Yeah. And it does feel like all the things are everything. And this is one thing. In a way, I was five years old when this girl Lisa calls me the N-word for the first time.

And I think then I was hurt, stunned, and activated. And my mom's response to that kind of soul wound was to tell me that racism was silly, which meant it had to go. We really didn't like silly, abide stupid. She wouldn't say stupid, but that's what she meant. And then she and I prayed together about it. Wouldn't it be great, God, if there was a world in which no matter how someone looks, they'd be loved, was my child prayer. That's my calling. And then my dad went to the Air Force Base commander and said, hey, we're not having this, and demanded an apology to him from the father and to me from the little girl. So that was so powerful to think you could say this is wrong and ask someone to repair it. So that spiritual piece and that

justice piece got braided together then in a way womanists would say can't come apart around race, class, gender. And I am absolutely clear that it is the end of my life work to make sure that justice rolls down like waters. You described the moment that we're in right now as hot mess times? I think some people would think that's extreme. Some people would think that's a really mild description. Yeah. I think that's depending on where like your lens on thing. That's right. You know, divergent ideologies, a very polarized us versus them ethos. And there's, you know, the question that you pose is, who are we to be?

And do we answer, and this is what you write about in Fierce Love, and it's also like, this is just a part of what you've been speaking about and offering for so many years now. You know, do we answer with what you describe as diminished imagination or Ubuntu, Fierce Love? Talk to me about this a bit. I've let go of a lot of what my early religion was, my young kid religion

wrapped up in what not to do and how to, you know, how to go to heaven, you know, how to avoid hell, which included a lot of judgments and just small, small God, like a little G God in my life of learning and spending time with other people across faiths, justice workers, and just all the things I think we have in common with each other and philly found a faith that i would just call love i mean rabbi jesus was not christian it shocks me every time i imagine christian people thinking the jews are put anything in there besides amazing and love since jesus was a jew and we follow him uh. But when he's asked to kind of describe what is right living or what's the greatest command, he pulls together texts from Deuteronomy and Leviticus

and says, love God with all, I say love, period. You know, everything else is commentary. Everything else is midrash. And that love, period, that love neighbor, love self, is so strong in so many of the world's religions. Love your neighbor as yourself. Do unto others what you'd have them do unto you. Don't withhold from someone that which you want for yourself. Don't hurt anyone else's heart.

This love of neighbor, love of self, is an equal sign in the Greek, and it's just the most potent human wisdom that I think happens to be ensconced in Ubuntu, which predates Christianity. It is ancient Zulu, South Africa, cradle of civilization type stuff. And we're all African, right, y'all, DNA-wise. And the Ubuntu is Umuntu, Ubuntu, Ngubantu. Umuntu, Ngubuntu, Ngubantu. That's terrible Zulu. A human is a human through other humans. You are only human because there are other humans. A person is a person through other persons.

I am because you are. We are inextricably connected. We found that out when we stood up and like walked out of the cave into the light. We have to have each other. So I think this kind of interrelatedness is Buddhist and Jewish and Christian and Muslim and humanist, Zoroastrian, it's everywhere.

And, you know, King picks it up when he's with Gandhi and says we're woven together in a garment that can't be pulled apart. Howard Thurman, Fannie Lou Hamer, all the great prophets know this kind of love is fierce. It's not weak. It's not tepid. It makes you stand in the street when someone's being assaulted and protect them with your life. It makes you go to the border to get kids out of the detention center and back in their parents' arms. It makes you throw your fist up in the air for peace. It grows a movement that is international and multi-faith. When George Floyd is killed, it's fierce.

And I think it is what's going to heal us. I think it's what got South Africa out of apartheid and I think it's what will get us out of apartheid too. I remember having a conversation a couple of years back with a friend who were actually talking about South America and Mandela and what happened after 27 years of his captivity, you know, like when he came out, you know, the inconceivable notion that you would then turn back to those who held you captive for literally the better part of

three decades of your life and, and say, you know, like, you're not off the hook. We don't forget the past. And yet there's something about us being able to create a future together, which means that we all need to be at a table together for him to say, we need a rainbow coalition. Yeah. Stunningly powerful, yet brutally, brutally hard in reality too. And I think that's what so many people are grappling with now. And it was sort of argued to me, well, yes.

And also realized that this sense of inviting all to the table and what presented as an opportunity for reconciliation and collaboration happened after the present harm to this one individual, it was the moment after that had come to an end and that we, in today's experience, are still in the absolute thick of present harm. So how do we have that invitation for us all to step into a table of love together when the harm is still like it's, we're not in the after phase yet, you know, which I think makes it so much more complex.

I think that you raised such a good point, but I would, I would argue that South Africa wasn't in the aftermath of harm. Mandela had been released after having been, you know, in captivity for 28 years. But there was ugly violence and fighting and wrestling and, you know, nail scratching on chalkboard. We will not let this go.

White power insisting on its own way, in the death throes, not wanting to die, not wanting to let go. There was wounding. It was hard work. It was fierce work. And the whole truth and reconciliation movement, I mean, I think some people from South Africa would critique that. I think politicians around the globe would critique that. But they tried a thing. Let's try to tell the truth. I'm thinking about Father Michael Lapsley and just wonderful love warriors, I would say. Mandela and Tutu among them.

But there was harm still happening when they decided to wrestle to a new place. And we have to do that. I mean, someone else's message might be different. I just think we cannot afford to miss this opportunity to say the path we're on is horrific. There is no outcome that's good for us as a people, not just here in the United States, but all around the globe, where migration patterns and economic patterns,

a kind of a conservative resurgence is creating the context for white supremacy to rear its head and for black and brown and poor people, Asian people, indigenous people, to suffer, for everyone who's poor to suffer at the hands of just a few billionaires, for us to create a world in which only a few of us survive and thrive. That's not acceptable to me. And I'll make you laugh, I hope,

to say that sometimes I'm on the nice white people tour because there's lots of ways to have this conversation. And one is finger-pointing and polemic that is not invitational. I'm a straight shooter. White people have work to do around white supremacy, period. And also, I don't believe we're going to heal the world in our segregated silos. I think our movement needs to be intersectional. I think our conversations have to include all the people.

I think we have to create pockets of resistance that are multi-ethnic so we can practice being the kind of people we want. I think we have to dismantle the strict boundaries of in and out and be more porous and welcoming around gender and sexuality and race, religion. Or we're going to die. And I don't want to die. I want my grandchildren and yours to thrive. So we can't wait until the harm is over.

In the middle of the harm, in the middle of the stupid rhetoric about critical race theory, in the middle of things that offend us, outrageously, some of us have to reach across and say, can we try to figure this out? Hmm. So powerful. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. A lot of what you speak to clearly has been built around this message, these ideas. Your new book, Fierce Love, is interesting to me because it offers a process. It's sort of like, okay, so we can talk about this. We can agree on the ideas. We can agree on the ethos. We can agree on where we all want to end, I think a lot of us. And yet, how do we actually get there in a practical step-by-step? How do we say yes? What do we say yes to? And how do we step into this? And I love that you basically lay out, you say like, here's what matters. And you may have to figure out what this looks like in your life,

in your relationships, in your community, in your heart. But these are the things you really need to consider, at least as you start to step into it. And I'd love to explore some of those. You lay out nine of them, but let's talk about some of them because I think it's really powerful. You actually, you start out with the notion of self-love, which I thought was really fascinating. And not only for the purpose of sort of like your own healing, but also because this notion that there's a connection between self-love and love of others. And it's really hard to step into a conversation about loving others until you enter the conversation about loving yourself. I think it's really true. And, you know, I've had a few conversations in the last couple of

months about why love yourself first. Is that narcissistic or is that navel gazing or sometimes, sometimes someone is narcissistic, mostly the person that we're noticing talking the most or expressing bravado, they're actually hurting inside and there looks like. We're taught how to keep our body, well, some of us are taught how to keep our bodies well, how to eat right, how to exercise, how to read, how to, you know, we're taught about music. Are we taught about how to love ourselves? I'm convinced that part of the hot mess that we experience is folks are actually following the edict to love their neighbor as themselves. They just do not love themselves. So that's the quality of love that they're giving to neighbor. They're shamed. They're sad. They're hurt. They're lost. They feel afraid. There's a lot of self-loathing, a lot of judgments against the self, attachments to what they think someone else thinks they should be like. you know, shiny as your skin and what kind of cars you buy and all of those things that are

external trappings that we buy into as the root of self-esteem. You know, as a person of faith, I would say of all the kinds of things I might let go of about my childhood faith, the thing that stays with me always is my mom's first message to me about the Eucharist, which is kind of like a Passover meal, or a Seder, I don't know, or maybe just Shabbat. There's bread and rice wine, and the bread comes by and she says, this bread means God will always love you. And this wine means God will never leave you. That's the beginning of a loving self.

God is going to love me no matter what I do, no matter what. God is not going to leave me no matter what. It took time for me to really learn to love myself, but I really do. And the quality of my relationships are better when I do. I can fall out of love with myself on a bad day, but when I recover that feeling of I'm okay, I'm really okay, it doesn't matter what I said yesterday or the mistake I made or if I'm having a really yucky, bad moment at work.

I'm okay. And I love me. And let's start over. Then I can exercise that same grace with my neighbor. Paul is okay. Dana's okay. Everybody's okay. They're doing the best they can.

It's okay. They're doing the best they can. It's grace. So I really believe that a revolution of values, a revolution of love is going to start with us. We don't have to wait to love other people till we get our act together. But there is going to be a quality of patience and kindness and ferocious commitment to the other's self-interest because you're honest about yours and you love yourself.

So agree. I mean, it's, yeah, the way you posed it, if sort of like the fundamental assumption that we're taught since we're kids is like love your neighbors, you love yourself, and you don't love yourself. Can't do it. Which so many people struggle with on so many levels. Then how can you even begin to expand anything? If there's self-loathing, if there's shame,

if you're othered from your own being, then how can you not but transfer that onto other people? Yes, so powerful. In Buddhism, there's a, I'm sure you're aware of this, the meta practice, loving kindness meditation, which has been a part of my practice for many years now, where you start basically by reciting a very simple set of phrases and, may you be well, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you live with ease. And there are all sorts of variations of this. And what's interesting to me is you go through a series where you start out with yourself.

The very first pass through is, may I be well, may I be happy, may I be healthy, may I be loved, may I live with ease. And you don't start from the outside in, you start from the inside out. And then eventually you move to the person you love and then a person who you maybe have seen in passing and then to somebody who you struggle with. And that I think is where it gets really interesting because then you're being asked to say, to extend those same well wishes to someone you perceive as not just other, but often causing you harm. And it's been an interesting practice for me.

I have placed in that role people who are on the other ends of the political, the social, the belief spectrum. And it's a hard moment. But it's never been lost to me that that particular practice is so powerful and that it always does start with you. It has to start with us. Imagine the children we'd raise if we taught them that it was perfectly amazing to love themselves. Less bullying, less dangerous behaviors, less medicating themselves, less shame, less false self, less bravado and persona, and just true, authentic love moving in the world toward the other. I mean, I just think it's everything.

Building on a focus on learning to love yourself. And also, it's important to note that you're also a big advocate of therapy and seeking out whatever help you need to do that. Not all of us are actually capable of saying, today I'm going to love myself. I'm going to journal and that's going to help me. Some folks have been through trauma. Some folks have been through all sorts of experience in their lives that make it very difficult for them to step into that place themselves. That's right.

And I think there's no, and sometimes layered on top of that is a sense of, well, they're ashamed if you have to ask for help to get back to that place of self-love. It's so true. And I just wanted to say, if you're listening and you think you need a helper, oh my gosh, get one. You know, we, folks will get a trainer at the gym or buy a tape, Jane Fonda, I don't know, to get worked out. We go get our teeth cleaned at the dentist. We know we must.

You know, therapy is like getting your psychic, your spiritual teeth cleaned. You know, it's what you do. You find a helping relationship with a spiritual director or a therapist or a counselor, a good friend, setting up a conversation that you know is going to be about moving toward your true self. I think it's such a gift to give yourself. And I hope that you will not feel ashamed and you'll instead feel brave and go for it. And interestingly, so building on that, the second element that you actually speak about is speaking truthfully.

And that also includes a truthful assessment of yourself. So to get to that place of self-love, right? We first have to, I think, know where we are. Are we actually there or are we not there? And mirrors become a really important part of that process. Talk to me more about this. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, you can't love patina. You could think it's cute or idolize it or worship it. But that which is false, that which is fake, we're not really going to love. And that relates to us as well.

So it's not just knowing where we are, but really knowing who you are. Really taking account. It feels a little bit from the big book, you know, the 12 steps of really doing an assessment or taking an inventory about who you are. You know, where am I so delighted in myself? I'm so proud of myself. I feel so good about myself, about my ability to be compassionate, my ability to bring humor. I can get people to sing, whatever it is. Your superpowers are gifts for the world. But it's

equally important to say, you know, when that happened to me when I was eight, that really hurt me. And I still have a wound there. And in that wound, I have a temper or in that wound, I have unforgiveness or shame. So to interrogate our stories for the superpowers that come from being shiny, but also the superpowers that come from being tarnished or dented. Because all of that makes us who we are. And the place where you're dented, or let me switch metaphors, where you have a cramp in your muscle or broken space, you can grow a really strong love muscle there just by paying attention, bringing your awareness there and thinking about that. And then you'll have empathy

for someone who has the same kind of bent space, broken space, and have gifts for the world from that broken space. And be a healer, Henry Nouwen would say. So that telling the truth is so important to yourself, on yourself, and then to make that a spiritual practice for how you move in the world. I have a friend, Amanda, who is like so straightforward. It's just, I think I'm straightforward and she is so straightforward. You just know when you're with her, you're going to get the straight thing. And it's so refreshing. She's honest with herself and then she's honest with the world.

And sometimes from that honesty comes things we might not like to hear or see or work through, which goes really well with your next invitation to travel lightly. You write, I'm going to share your words. Your life is a string of events, a collection of stories, some of which gave you irreplaceable lessons about how to live truly, stories that develop your superpowers. And though it can seem impossibly heavy, if you lift up your unexamined stories, your unforgiven wounds, and the crippling weight of oppression, and pay attention to what lies beneath them, you can discover the best of what it means to be alive.

That's beautiful. Who wrote that? Somebody I'm looking at right now. I think it's so true. I have had, like every human being, hard things happen. I tell in the book stories about, you know, kind of some tough times with my dad, who I get to go see next week as we're recording this,

with his almost 87-year-old amazing self. I love him so much. I love him so much. And when I was a little girl, I idolized him. And in the middle of that teenagehood and young girlhood and just being a young adult, I think we have fraught relationships with our parents sometimes as we grow up and as they grow up. And every time I think about my dynamic with my dad, I think, I am so capable of reconciliation. That's a superpower that I wouldn't know I have, honestly.

Except I practiced it. And we practiced it together. My dad made friends with my husband. He wasn't sure he was going to like him and they love each other. Every single time I talked to my dad two or three times a week, he says, make sure you say hi to John, tell the grandbabies hi, and tell them I love them. Like you floss your teeth, that's what my dad says. And I don't know why it's tearing me up right now, but in a world where people don't like each other, can't get along. my dad my black mississippi raised dad loves his white son-in-law loves his filipino daughter-in-law is a revolutionary lover and has taught me how to be one by watching him. So the story that I tell, that I pick up and look at, I can be like, oh, that was really painful because it was.

Or I can say, look at what happened here in this narrative and how beautiful we all are because we went through it and what we learned about ourselves that make us travel lightly now because we can just let that stuff go. I know through that season where you were really struggling with your parents and your husband and they were not accepting for quite some time, there was also a window in your life where you ended up in an accident in Canada. chose not to come, but you were shown some really beautiful kindness by a complete stranger who took care of you, who made sure that you had a place to stay, who brought you to and from

the hospital. You write about that, I was tethered by a cord of kindness connecting her soul to mine. When I was reading that story from you, it's funny, I had this, it brought me to a moment in New York City a couple of years ago, actually, when there was a play called Come From Away that I saw that spoke to the moment. Oh, I love that play. I was weeping, weeping at the end of that. Me too.

And it spoke to the moment after 9-11 where there were a lot of planes in the air, like the US airspace was closed and there was this one tiny little place in Canada where something like 36 planes had to emergency land. Literally, the population of the planes was bigger than the entire area. Town.

And the town took in every single one of them. And I was like, why can't the world be like this? We can be like this. They were like that. She was like that. Think about the people who ran inside the towers. My friend Carrie Kelly's stepdad. One more time.

I'll be right up. He never came down. But he was just, I'm going to go get me some more time. I'll be right up. He never came down, but he was just, I'm going to go get me some more people. My friend Joey, still struggling with cancers from being on ground zero, but did that. People who wandered into the waters of Katrina and just got people to safety. The way we will catch a child being thrown out of a building burning, and also just the ordinary things like my neighbor needs food. I'm going to go buy some. I'm going to help this person across the street. We have that in us. We know how to do it.

We need to remind ourselves of this part of ourselves and not forget it. We need to remember this part of ourselves and celebrate it when we see it. Affirm it in our kids. Teach it to our teens. Make space for it. Not just like mission trips in the summer, but how are we going to experience other people and care about them and care about their lives. This Canadian woman saved me when I was being tossed about in a time and totaled car and all alone. And I have saved people and you have too. And we all have and will and can by kindness, by volunteering, by donations, by seeing somebody lost and saying, how can I help? By not joining the crowd of the, my friend Damaris called it the other day,

by silencing the silencers, by silencing the oppressive voices. Yeah, we can do it. We have to do it. You know, a big part of this, you know, we've been talking a lot about kindness and expensiveness and, and, and seeing ourselves in others and others in ourselves. And, and a part of this, and this is part of what you write about also is, is a willingness to confront when we see things that we feel are not okay. You talk about confronting situations boldly. And it's implicit. You

don't just use the word love when you talk about it. You talk about it as revolutionary love or fierce love. And part of that implies not just saying like, oh, yes to everybody, but also looking at things that you see and say, this is not right, and be willing to actually stand up and confront them, whether it's within yourself, whether it's in your family, your community, or the world around you. Coming full circle in sort of the conversation we've been having about your dad and your husband, there comes a time where actually it sounds like your dad didn't just sort of come around. Part of it was you basically saying, I need to actually step into this conversation in a very direct way,

and let's figure this out. Yeah. I did that. I did that. And there is a part of love that has to stand up for what love believes is loving, right? What love believes is right. And I think I would say my dad has been a laboratory for my activism. Dad, if you ever hear this, thank you. But you know what? How are we going to live a life if we can't tell each other the hard truth and heart, you know, courage, encourage, tell the truth from our

heart. I was ready to walk away from the meanness, you know, a mean behavior. And my dad didn't want me to walk away. So the beginning of the new dynamic, the newer dynamic, the better dynamic, was one of the toughest conversations I've ever had. And he's here. We are here together on the other side of it in the strongest sense of truth and reconciliation. The word truth in Greek has a sense of evening out or balancing or making citizens of everyone, equality, like the truth makes a balance in this very profound way where children grow up. And before we're the people who take care of our parents,

which ends up happening if we're lucky in old age, you're two adults who have to be able to be honest with each other and ask for what you need. I think if we're blessed or lucky, we get it. But if you don't ask for it, you're not going to get it. And that's really true in the world. We are taught, just like we're taught not to love ourselves, I think we're also taught, or at least it's modeled to us, to be quiet about what's wrong and be polite and be civil

and be just resenting the heck out of it, right? Like, oh, I'm so mad, I so resent it, but I'm not going to say anything. So why not tell the truth and confront the thing and see if your courage, your moral courage can change it for the better. You write, resilience and joy don't come from being a false. They emerge from looking squarely at the truth of our circumstances, feeling what is inside authentically, and then turning a grateful heart towards the good, the bad, and the ugly part of living life. This is an important lesson for children and for adults as we face this world. Yeah.

Yeah. Like the smile plastered on your face is not joy. You know, the joy is we went through it and we got out on the other side and we can laugh roomie says when you do something from your soul it's a river it's a joy my granddaughter is a three-year-old woman she's a woman she got feelings you know i need my privacy nana how can you need your privacy you know but she so blessed, so lucky to live in this family where her parents are not shooting on her. So if she has a chance to have her private time and go self-soothe and watch Moana and, you know, suck her fingers for a few minutes. When she's back in herself, she's hilarious and joy bunny

incorporated, right? It's not because she's forced to pretend that she's okay. It's that she gets to be okay. She gets to cry. She gets to mourn. She gets to laugh. She gets to dance. True joy happens because we're in a true life. Yeah, I mean, so much of this conversation in your work points back to getting clear and honest and open and not running from what you discover is your reality is that the reality of life around you and saying, okay, if I have this sense of injustice, if something is not right within me or within my relationships or within my community, let's not just keep on keeping on. Right. Confront it, do something about it. You know, you speak about living justly as part of your steps as well. We've kind of woven in the conversation around finding joy purposely.

And also, you kind of wrap the conversation talking about belief. Believe assiduously is the rally cry. You write, if humankind is to thrive, we need to let go of any religion that wounds and kills. In the interest of exercising hate, I find myself preaching and teaching folks to see through the eyes of love. Yeah. I don't care anymore. I used to, as a young preacher, think my job was to convert people to something. And the only conversion project I'm in is to convert people to love. It doesn't matter whether you are humanist or atheist, agnostic, whatever your faith practice is. I would argue the only thing that will bind us,

religion really kind of means to bind, the only thing that will bind us together is love. A fierce love that makes you and I understand that we are connected, that if you're hungry, my stomach growls. If your mom and dad don't have health care, I'm worried about my auntie, my uncle, that our children belong to the whole of us, the earth belongs to the whole of us. We, all of us, have to be able to be free to love who we love, to have enough to live on, to make ends meet. That's all there is. We have to love each other.

So I'm struck by the rabbis teaching a life of, a moral life is learning how to see. So to see everyone as your beloved, to see the world as your beloved, to see the planet as your beloved, then I think we'll make it together. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well.

So sitting here in this container of good life project, if I offer the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life is to be true, honest, clear, straightforward, an open channel, so that you feel your wounds, you grieve your griefs, you mourn your losses, you laugh, laugh, laugh at all the things that delight you. You taste a grape and your mouth is on fire with joy because you are an open channel in this good life. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you'll also love the conversation

we had with Bishop Michael Curry about love as a path to reconciliation and healing. You'll find a link to Bishop Curry's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes

or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available

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