Good Life Project - Rich Roll: On Reckoning and Reinvention

Episode Date: May 14, 2018

Rich Roll transformed his body and health, losing 50-pounds and becoming an acclaimed plant-powered ultra-endurance athlete. This led to the blockbuster book, Finding Ultra. But, behind the scenes, he was struggling with something else that would eventually bring him, once again, to his knees.While he'd figured out his physical wellbeing, he had also awakened to the fact that his career as a lawyer was deeply unfulfilling. Married, with a wife and four kids, he left the law behind. Now, he had to figure out how to craft a new living. This led to a years-long, often brutally-hard journey that brought him within hours of losing the family home. But, together with his wife, Julie Piatt, they held to their belief that the only way was through.That eventually led to a new vocation as an advocate, speaker, author and podcast producer focusing on healthy-living, plant-powered eating, sustainable food-systems and meaningful living. That journey is still unfolding. And, in today's conversation, we dive into the major points of reckoning, inflection and celebration. This part of his journey is also detailed in a newly updated version of Finding Ultra.-----------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When you want something, it's hard, and it doesn't always go the way that you want it to. But ultimately, the value of really chasing after something that's important to you kind of transcends all of that. I am super excited to have my buddy Rich Roll on the podcast with me today. We first taped a conversation, yeah, man, it's probably like almost five years back when we were filming the original video series for Good Life Project. And it was a really big deep dive into his personal journey from overweight, 50-pound overweight, alcoholic, miserable, unhappy, unhealthy, tourney at the time to a profound physical transformation and where he actually became

sort of an ultra endurance elite athlete that led to a book called Finding Ultra, which is a really moving memoir. That memoir is actually out as a reissue with something like a hundred new pages. It's almost like an entire new book. You can go check it out now. But I want to sit down with Rich because the story that hasn't been told really all that much is the story of what has happened since that book came out in the six years since the

original. And that odyssey is maybe more compelling, more powerful, a bigger disruption than what came before it. I had Rich's wife, Julie Payette, on a little while back, which is another fantastic conversation. We'll link to both Rich's earlier one and Julie's. And I really wanted to dive into sort of Rich's experience of the last chunk of years. We cover so many different topics. He is beautifully open, transparent, and vulnerable. I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results

will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. And the last time we sat down together was got to be close to five years ago, right? Yes, I did your Good Life Project before it was an audio podcast and you were on YouTube. That's right, it was video. We videoed it in some warehouse somewhere. Right, some film space.

And I think that is the first time that I met you face to face. But I would say, and I would like to say, that probably unbeknownst to you, that you have been a mentor from afar. For me, for quite some time, I started following your work back when you were just talking about writing. And you had a website. I can't remember what it was called. Yes, exactly. And I would read your posts. That's too funny. website. I can't remember what it was called. Yes, exactly. And I would read your posts and I had a couple of friends that were onto your stuff and, and I voraciously devoured your content back at that, back at that time. And that's when I was a practicing lawyer and I was starting to like, think like, I need out, like, how am I going to, you know, jettison myself out of this career and figure something else out? I was just starting to think about that kind of stuff. And I was looking for people who had blazed that path ahead of me.

And, you know, you were kind of at the forefront of that at that time. Oh, that's wild. Must have been 2002. I mean, we're going way back. It was a long time ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so funny how things come full circle, right? Yeah. And it's funny now too, because now I'm sure a lot of people look at you as the guy who was working in the law, miserable, ill, burned out and being like, huh. So Rich figured something out. It seems like he's super

fit. He's living a great life. He loves his wife. He's hanging out with his kids and he's building a whole cool new thing. And it just happened like that. Right. Does that weird you out at all? It doesn't. Well, it weirds me out when I feel like a false narrative is being projected upon me or that I'm being revered in a certain way that doesn't feel genuine. But I'm very aware of holding that

space for certain people. And so when I do the podcast or the kind of content that I put out, I'm conscious of that, you know, because I want to walk in your footsteps and be a voice that can perhaps provide a little bit of guidance for those who are struggling with that. Because I think a lot of people are. I think it's an epidemic of our age. I think there is a gigantic percentage of our population and perhaps globally of people who are stuck in unfulfilling careers, who don't feel fulfilled, don't have that anchor, and are looking for something more purposeful. Yeah, I can't disagree with that.

And I think there's also a lot of smoke and mirrors. A lot, a lot of that. I think that's part of it. I mean, it's one of the things that, you know, we've been friends for a chunk of years now, and I've come to know you, I've come to know your wife, Julie. And one of the things that I find so compelling is the level of ease that you both have with telling the truth, even when things suck. And you have been through a gauntlet.

You know, it's interesting. So if we go back to the time where, and by the way, if you want to know Rich's fuller backstory, we've got this, we've got a phenomenal, you know, we've got the whole tale told on a really great video series. And we'll be sure to link to that. I think it'd be interesting to kind of pick up when your last book came out.

So you come out with this book, 2013-ish, right? Spring of 2012. Okay. Finding Ultra. And it essentially is kind of a, I guess you call it a memoir, right? Yeah, it's fundamentally a memoir. Right. About your journey from being in this really awful place to radically changing the way that you ate to reconnecting with movement. In a very past

life, you were a competitive swimmer and that sort of like that and running just kind of like it became your salvation to a certain extent. And then you took that and instead of it being just a tool to kind of get you back to baseline, you become this ultra endurance or like elite high performance guy. And that book was kind of the journey to that. And I know there's the rest of that story. There's a refresh of that story, which is emerging into the world. Also these six years between now and then I've seen, I mean, from the outside looking in what looks to be huge change, even from that moment is, do you feel that?

I feel it. It's that thing. I don't know if you've experienced this where you've changed in certain fundamental ways, but because it's gradual, you don't know if you've experienced this, where you've changed in certain fundamental ways, but because it's gradual, you don't notice it. And it only becomes evident when somebody else reflects it back to you and you're forced to kind of confront it in a way that is not obvious to you in the moment. But yeah, I would agree with that. I think the last six years I've seen perhaps more change than the change that's described in that book. And a lot of that is, you know, I speak about it, but some of that is untold and some of it is more dramatic than going from alcoholic to ultra endurance athlete. I think the struggles that I faced and the obstacles that I faced and ultimately, you know, continue to face and have overcome some are things that are probably more relatable to the average human being. I mean, in the wake of

that book coming out, I was still a practicing lawyer. The date the book was released, I said, I'm no more, I'm not going to be a lawyer anymore. And I wasn't really, to be honest, I wasn't really practicing very much at that time anyway. I was slowly kind of sliding out of it, but I allowed my bar membership dues to lapse, and I'm like, it's official. Man, I remember when I did that. That was not easy. It's scary. Yeah. You know, it's scary.

Because I was very aware that that book, you know, I was sort of an unknown human being at that point. But it presented an opportunity to catalyze even further transformation professionally and personally, but only to the extent that I was willing to kind of invest in getting that story out there. And so I was very determined to use that as a launchpad. And so many of the changes that I experienced that are described in that book are premised upon like having a true north and working hard and having faith that the universe will ultimately conspire to support you in that pursuit if your heart is true. And I had no reason to believe that that wouldn't continue to be the case, but the universe had other plans. And in the wake of that book coming out, I was

sort of pushing it out in the world diligently. I was like, okay, so now here's where these opportunities are going to come about that are going to allow me to support my family. I have four kids. And the phone just wasn't ringing. And money was getting super tight. And we went through a really difficult financial time. Julie calls it our dismantling. We almost lost our home. I mean, and that's a two-hour saga in and of itself to just describe. We had cars repossessed.

You know, I think the nadir might've been when we couldn't, I can't remember if Julie told you this story, but we couldn't even pay for our garbage pickup. And so I remember when waste management came and picked up our bins and took them away. And the bill was like 60 bucks or something like that. And so then we had to put our garbage in the back of the one beat up old minivan that we had and find an empty dumpster somewhere to put that stuff. And meanwhile, you know, there's press being written about me in this book. And it was this bizarre, disorienting juxtaposition of having this ascending profile at the same time when we were struggling in a very, you know, in a very real way and really questioning, like, is this insane? You know, how are we gonna see our way through this? There was no roadmap.

There were mentors like yourself out in the world that I was, you know, investing in following and trying to practice the tools and the resources that were readily available to me. But my faith was tested in a huge way. And there were many times where I thought, I'm gonna go back and work in a law firm. And it was Julie who's like, no, the only way out is through. You cannot go backwards. We

will figure this out, but you have to stay true to that true north that you set for yourself. And if you Google me or you read some story about me, it looks like it's all roses and it just kind of happened. But it was many years of trying to figure out how to, you know, how to take these ideas that meant so much to me, the experiences that I've had, and translate them into something that could be digestible for human beings while also being financially responsible. Yeah. I mean, that's such an interesting place to be in, right? Especially because the book did really well. Yeah. The book continues to sell. So you're seeing this one thing, you know, which kind of like is telling your story of your ascendancy and people are rallying around it. And like you say, like other media want to tell the story of it. And also, you know,

physically you're this specimen of it, you know, like absolute optimal peak fitness and health and the ability to make this really big, dramatic, disruptive change. And you're also, I mean, I know you and Julie, you're spiritual people. You know, like you dive into something and there is this belief that if we are fiercely aligned that, you know, we will be provided for. And yet sometimes it just doesn't happen or sometimes it doesn't happen on the timeframe. Yeah.

It doesn't happen. That you need it to happen. Exactly. Yeah. It doesn't happen the way that you want it to happen, would like it to happen. And certainly not on your own timeframe for sure. Were you both on the same page about how to handle that window? Julie was much stronger about it. Like she, she never wavered and her steadfastness, her like,

her firm constitution was really an anchor for me. I think left to my own devices, I would have spun out of control. And it was her center of gravity that allowed me to continue to, to move forward with, you forward with some semblance of grace throughout it all. Yeah. I know because my wife and I have talked about you guys actually, and we had this conversation of like, there are windows, even when you're succeeding, even when you're building a business or a company or a venture, there is never, I have never met the person where it's just been this smooth trajectory up and things just, you know, they started okay and they got a little better, a little better.

It's just, it's, it doesn't work like that. You know, even if you're very successful, you're going to have like a big spike up and then you're going to have your like dark night of the soul. And then you're going to spike higher, hopefully, and you're going to have yet another trough of sorrow. And then, and when you're younger, it's one thing to go through that. Because you're like, what do I have to lose? My ego? A couple of bucks? I'll be okay.

But when you hit a point in your life where you're like, okay, so we're a family. We've got a home. We've got kids. I think it makes it so much harder to own that cycle. Very true. Yeah. And as a, you know, as a man, like quote unquote, like head of household, like, and all the baggage that comes with that.

So I know Julie's always been the head of your household. Yes, I know. Let's be clear about that. That's very true. But my own ego getting in the way of thinking like, what, you know, what is my job as a husband and a father as a provider, right? And that was really called into question. And looking at my kids and thinking, am I on some crazy ego trip? Like, what are the ramifications for this in terms of how this is going to impact my children? This is,

this can't be about me and my, you know, my journey. It has to be about us as a collective. And, you know, I'm sure that what we had to endure impacted my kids psychologically. And my daughters are too young to really be fully cognizant of it. But, you know, we've had extensive conversations with our older boys who are now 23 and 22, and they were fully aware of what was going on, and they had to endure certain things that I wish they didn't have to. Today, they will tell you that those were valuable experiences because they saw two people committed to something that they loved and willing to fight for it. And as difficult as it was in the aftermath of finally persevering and succeeding, there is a lesson for them, which is

when you want something, it's hard and it doesn't always go the way that you want it to. But ultimately, the value of really chasing after something that's important to you kind of transcends all of that. And so, you know, it's not all roses, of course, but they will tell you that they learned a lot from that and that they consider it to be a net positive. Yeah, I mean, just for them to know also, just because it's hard, that doesn't mean it's wrong. I mean, because I think so much of us, when it doesn't, when you have a vision of what you want it to be and it doesn't come quickly or easily, like, well, this must not be right then. To see, both for your kids and for you, right? And for anyone, for all of us, right? To go through a process where you're like, this just feels right, but it sucks and it's not

happening. And like you want it to happen, it's causing pressure and stress. And then, but to stay with it through all of that, and then to see it start to actually bear fruit. Like for me, one of the hugest lessons has always been just because it's really hard. It doesn't mean that it's wrong. Like it can be as right as ever, but that doesn't mean it, you know, the universe is just going to rise up and say, ta-da. Yeah, no, no, no, no. And sometimes it is wrong, you know. Right, but that's that. So how do you distinguish that? I mean, cause that's the classic. I think you have to really be connected to yourself in a, in a profound way. Like you have to have done that internal work where you really understand what is making you tick.

So that dream or that goal or that passion that you have that you're trying so desperately to express is fundamentally the correct trajectory for you. I think if you're disconnected and you're just, I want to be a startup founder or whatever, you're just pulling out of the ether, some idea that you saw somebody else chase and, and decide that that's for you without really investing in, in the internal work to understand what it is that, you know, drives you is the core thing, right? For you then, what was your process to really figure that out?

Because you were coming out of a world where your head was spinning. And it sounds like fitness and lifestyle and nutrition were a way in, but that didn't necessarily reveal this is the essence of who I am and what drives me. Yeah, I think it began with the feedback that I was receiving from the book and some of the press that I had done, where I was getting really profound emails from people who had connected with my story, and were sharing with me very personal aspects of their own pain and process and journey. Things that they wouldn't tell somebody on the street, perhaps even at times things that they hadn't told anybody. And I was so struck by that. And I think it was that experience of feeling connected to these people that I had never met before that gave me a sense that this was a about what I was doing that had value. And it gave me a sense of purpose and kind of girded my life with meaning in a way that I hadn't experienced before.

And it drove me to find ways of providing helpful information to people in a way that could not just maybe get them through the day, but significantly impact how they think about their lives. And what that would look like, I didn't know. But I did know that the answers would come if I continued to do the things that had gotten me to that place and tried to stay grounded enough to pay attention to the signals that I was getting from the world around me. So beyond that, in terms of tactics, I don't know that I had a strategy. It certainly wasn't a whiteboard situation of saying, this is what I'm going to do. And that's how it's going to break down.

And not even getting to the, what am I going to do part of it yet, which I do want to explore, but really I think what my curiosity is more getting to the who am I and what matters to me and what gives me meaning, what drives me part of it. Like part of it was starting to actually see all this feedback from people and you were responding to it in a way where like, wow, this is doing something to and for them, but it's also doing something to me. And what's that telling me about? Okay, so this, whatever it is, it feels good. I'm curious whether there was any more sort of deliberate process of self-inquiry around that. That's a great question. I guess I would say that the self-inquiry process took the form of making sure that I continue to take care of myself physically and that I continue to invest in mindfulness practices and meditation that would deepen or quicken that connection with self so that I could be certain to the extent possible that my instincts as they arose within me could be reliable. That being said, that took place in the midst of a tremendous amount of confusion.

Right. And upheaval. And upheaval. And as you know, it's difficult to be creative and conscious when you're under financial pressure and you don't have a job. You know, I mean, these are, you know, real legitimate stressors. and unsure where our next paycheck was going to come from when an opportunity arose to go to Hawaii and work with a businessman there who was trying to develop a property and create like a community on this land that he had. And he offered to bring my whole family out to Kauai and pay us some money and nobody else. I mean, the phone wasn't ringing. There was nothing going on. And it was like a lifeline. Like it really saved us. And it didn't really make sense. And I wasn't ringing. There was nothing going on. And it was like a lifeline. Like it really saved us. And it didn't really make sense.

And I wasn't sure how it fit into the construct of what I was trying to achieve. But that's what showed up. And it showed up in a moment where we really needed it. And so in line with like paying attention to the cues of the universe, this was a yes, right? So we moved to the North Shore of Kauai. We're living in yurts on an organic farm. My kids are like, what is going on? You know, I'm like, I don't know. Right. From Malibu to yurts. Yeah. And at the time, like, I was pretty convinced that we were going to lose our home.

And I was like, maybe we're just supposed to live in Hawaii. Like, you know, I didn't know. And after being there for a period of time, I started to get a little bit of island fever. I'd worked so hard to, you know, try to create the kernel of something. And then I felt like detached from humanity being on this island. I wanted to feel connected. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist whether you're running swimming or sleeping and it's the fastest charging apple watch getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes the apple watch series 10 available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum compared to previous generations iphone 10s or later required Charge time and actual results will vary. And going back to Los Angeles wasn't an option in that moment. And that's when the idea of starting a podcast occurred.

Because it was my way of trying to, you know, reassemble that connection, at least virtually. And at the time, there was no, it wasn't a business plan or anything like that. Right, because podcasting wasn't like, ooh, this is a fast track to money. Yeah, no, this was- Even today, it's not. This was 2012. This is a passion project.

Yeah, for sure. It wasn't about generating income whatsoever. I mean, I wouldn't call myself an early adopter because podcasts have been around since, I don't know, 2006 or something like that. But I've been a fan of the medium because I'd listened to tons of them when I was training out by myself preparing for these races. And that was at the time when it was super wonky. There was no app and you kind of had to download them through iTunes on your desktop and bump them to your MP3 player and all of that.

But I loved the medium. And although there were great shows at that time, there didn't seem to be all that much happening in the health space. And I thought, maybe I could contribute to this. And literally just took my sons, who are musicians, grabbed their microphones, and Julie and I just had a conversation. And from the minute we did it, I loved it. And I thought, let's do it again tomorrow, you know? And I think in retrospect, what I was doing was trying to continue the conversation that had begun with Finding Ultra, you know, which is a book about, as much as it's about, you know, my personal transformation,

it's really about trying to find and bring expression to a more authentic version of yourself. And it's about human potential. And I wanted to use that template of podcasting to kind of explore other areas that perhaps I'd been blind to and continue my own education into self-development. Yeah. And it sounds like it was also, it was your way to more publicly engage with those emails and those letters that you were getting and saying, let's continue this

conversation. Let's make it bigger. Let's make it more public and see what comes of it. Yeah. And, you know, you said at the outset that, you know, Julie and I have been sort of courageously truthful and honest about our journey. And that's really at the core of everything that I do. And it speaks to this issue of getting these emails and the conversations that I've had with people. The honesty and the transparency comes from a desire to allow people to feel like it's okay

if they're having a hard time, that it's like permission, right? And it's okay if they're having a hard time, you know, that it's like permission, right? And it's almost like a breath of fresh air when you're talking about all the sort of, you know, shysters out there that are selling you programs that will transform your life in 30 days. That's not how it worked for me. You know, I know it's not how it worked for you. And I kind of wanted to inject a little bit of, you know, honesty into the experience. Yeah. I mean, it's a process.

So you start, it's funny, I didn't realize that's how your podcast, that was the origin of it. In a warehouse that had the worst acoustics possible. What was the early response to it? Because like you said, when you started doing this, the technology was pretty janky and the audience was, the entire ecosystem of listeners was a fraction of the size. Yeah. It's nothing, nothing. It was not cool to have a podcast.

Right. It's like you wouldn't introduce yourself as a podcaster. Yeah. No, not at that time. But I will say this, the one benefit of starting a podcast back then is that you could make an impact pretty quickly. So from the very first moment, it was like top three in the health section from the get-go. And I was able to establish an audience and do a little bit of a land grab that I think would be impossible to do now. So the response was favorable from the very first episode. And, you know, it wasn't that many people listening, but it was enough that it was showing up on iTunes in the new and noteworthy, and it was kind of, you know, up there in the rankings and in the top 100 immediately of all

shows, because there just wasn't that much competition. And that was the encouragement that I needed to keep going at that time. Right, but that doesn't solve your biggest pain point at that moment in time, which is you got a family, you're living in New York, in Hawaii, and you wanna get back to like supporting and the mainland and all this stuff.

So the thing is, well, two things. It was something that I could do, right? When I didn't know what to do. It gives you a sense of agency. Yeah, a sense of agency. It was a creative outlet. And fundamentally beyond that, and perhaps most importantly, my experience has been when you're

in that moment of confusion and you don't feel like you know what direction to turn, the best thing to do is to try to get out of your own egocentric problems and figure out a way to be of service to other people. That's always my answer. And if you can devote yourself to that path, ultimately, that's the way forward and the way out of whatever conundrum you find yourself in. And that's something I learned in sobriety. It's like a core fundamental principle of recovery. Yeah, I mean, the idea of being of service also,

I think a lot of people get tripped up because whatever area they're struggling in, they create an overlay that says, well, I haven't figured this out. I'm really struggling, aka I'm not worthy of sharing anything of value in any area. And what's interesting about you is you had this area where you're really struggling. You hadn't figured it out. And it took even a chunk of time since then. But still, you knew that there was something that you could offer in one domain. And you just chose to say, let me focus on that domain and be of service. Even though there's other stuff that I haven't figured out and I'm not going to talk about,

there's still some place where I can turn around and feel like I'm helping. And also, sharing the struggle is your experience, right? And if you can get out of yourself and have the courage to share that, my experience has been, that's what really connects with people. And I think the honesty to just say, I don't have this all figured out,

but this is what I'm going through and I I'm, I'm thinking about this or this people like that, you know, because, because we all share that. Yeah. I think people need it. And also, I mean, it's funny. There's, there are a couple of Instagram accounts that I've seen recently that have exploded their huge giant followings. And I was looking, I was like, what's going on here? And it was people who consistently posted their struggle. They consistently posted their mad, anxious self-talk on a daily basis, their self-doubt, their self-criticism, their, oh my gosh, another day of this. And their accounts were exploding.

Often they're with cute drawings or whatever it is like that, but fundamentally it was the vulnerability of sharing, oh man, this is hard. And it's exactly what you're saying. It's like part of the value that you can offer is, okay, I've got some solutions, some ideas that might make you feel better or help you build your bit, whatever it is. But I think a lot of people really miss just the value in saying, not even saying, but just letting you know that you're not alone.

It's so powerful. And I think we're at a point right now where not only do we desperately need that, we've become skeptical of anyone who positions themselves otherwise. You know, our bullshit meters are so finely attuned because we're on the receiving end of so much content and so many experts telling us how to live our lives and we should do this or that, that it's a breath of fresh air. When we can see the humanity in somebody who perhaps can teach us something, but also lets us know that we're on this path together. Yeah. I actually don't want to learn from somebody who presents himself

as having just this easy, smooth trajectory to mad success. I'm like, no, I want to learn from somebody who's been beaten, knocked around on the way, not physically necessarily, but who's been through really hard times and figured out a way to continue on, even if they haven't risen to the highest level of success. I want to, that's the person I trust. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. And I think that in certain respects is why this podcasting format has blown up. Well, I think that we've become so acclimated to soundbite culture, but we're animals that love story, you know, and we are animals of nuance. And this format allows us to have the time, the bandwidth to explore things the way that they actually are rather than just the 10-second version. Yeah.

No, that's my favorite part of it too. So you're hanging out on an island. You and Julie are having these awesome conversations in part because you're creating some interesting stuff. You're being real. And because it's really early like, I've continued to do the podcast now for five and a half years, but it was, I don't know, two and a half years of doing it consistently every week without ever missing a week before it got to the point where I could, like, you know, make any money off of it. It's like, did it for a long time for free. Yeah, we came back and then here we are. Well, we're back. Now, what are we going to do? And it was really just, we strung it together somehow, like looking back, like, I don't even know how we made it work.

You know, literally, hey, will you come and speak here for free? Will you come and do this one thing? We'll pay a tiny little bit of amount. Like I just said yes to everything. I said yes to the universe. You know, we were fighting for our house. We came within 48 hours of having it stripped away from us. At the very last minute, the bank came through and allowed us to refinance.

Like every single real estate person said, the house is gone. Like you're never going to, you're not going to save this thing. Like, we hadn't been able to pay our mortgage for a very long time. And by some mysterious alchemy of universal support, things came together that allowed us to save it and make it work. I got a business partner who was extremely helpful in taking my ideas and helping me figure out how to position them into ways that could be sustainable financially for the family. And then it was many years of just literally step by step, brick by brick, trying to build something that could ultimately provide for my family and pay the bills and we're there now but it you know that was it took four or five years trying to put that together how were you frustrated by the feeling along the way that i'm not even going to assume

that did you have a feeling along the way that there was something truly of value, something truly inside of you that you had to push out into the world that could be of service, that could generate everything that you needed, where you could build a business and income, a vocation around it, but you just couldn't put your finger on the pulse of what that looked like, the form and shape of it? Oh, yeah. I mean, I still struggle with what that looked like, the form and shape of it. Oh yeah, I mean, I still struggle with what that looks like. And it's not any one thing that I do. It's really the confluence of doing several things

that allow it to work. All I knew was that a lot of people are suffering. There's a tremendous number of people who are sick. It's like one out of every three people die of a heart attack. Diabetes rates are through the roof. Obesity rates are through the roof. Like I said before, people are stuck in jobs that are not fulfilling for them. and food culture and food systems, the extent to which these choices that we all make every day about the food that we eat impact our planet

and our environment in ways that we're not consciously aware of. And as I continue to interview more and more people for the podcast, my horizons began to expand. And I became much more interested in issues that impact all of us than the world of ultra-endurance sports or being a vegan athlete. And I knew that there was a way to take this information and provide it for people in a helpful way. But what that looked like in a business

context really just kind of evolved organically through the process of just continuing to show up and create the best content that I could. It got really dark in here, didn't it? You guys are listening like, what just happened? Some dark cloud. I don't know. God, did you not approve of what I just said? I don't know. And lo, the heavens erupted. You're basically kind of like trying a whole bunch of different things and changing also. Because this thing that vaulted you into the public was this physical transformation, vocational transformation, but not really vocational. It was the burned out, overweight, fit, sick, addicted to ultra endurance. That was the hero's journey that was being told publicly. That was a hero's journey that started the conversation with the public after that.

But you're evolving to become much more interested and evolved in the world of food, but also sort of like the agricultural side of the food, the environmental side of the food, the sustainable side of food, which is interesting because to me, that's when I think about what you and Julie have now built, that is front and center. I sort of like, oh, and he does these really crazy things every once in a while and runs these insane things and swims between a thousand islands in fritted water. But to me, that's not the heart. That's not so much what it's about now. Although if you look at the body of work you've created with your media now, which has now evolved into like much more polished,

much more long, produce on a whole different level with like video, you do still sort of like blend, I wouldn't call them extreme athletes, but athletes who push themselves to the edge with people who are really full spectrum health, wellness, and a lot of food and environment. Yeah, I try to mix it up.

I try, you know, my only rule is, does this person have a message that I think is powerful? Does this person inspire me in a certain way? And I try to curate the guests as I know you do with a smattering of a little bit of everything. So yeah, I've had world-class athletes on, I've had entrepreneurs, I've had, you know, environmentalists, I've had all different kinds of people. And I try to, it's sort of like a playlist, right? Like if you're a D if you're a DJ at a radio station, what song goes best after this song? So you create like this immersive experience as a result of consuming the content. But I think one of the things that I like to do on the podcast from time to time that maybe is a little bit different is I like to just have an everyman on.

Like somebody who maybe has done something noteworthy or extraordinary, but it's just like an average human being who faces the struggles that we all have and has found their own way of like navigating through that. And I found that some of those episodes are the most popular or the most impactful because we can see ourselves in those kinds of people. And sometimes when you have like a super world-class athlete on, it's hard to relate, you know, it's hard to really connect with that person. Of course I can completely relate. i relate to the everyman um yeah and jonathan come on it goes back to what you were saying before though it is like you know like okay so it's a it's a belonging thing it's like oh yeah me too me too me too i get it

mayday mayday We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest

charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. On the flip side of that, you have also had over the years guests that were highly provocative. Guests where you have. Who, you? Who did I have? No, not me. Recently, in the not too distant past, Lance Armstrong. So you've had a handful of people on that they're bigger names, and they're also extraordinarily polarizing characters.

How do those experiences feel? How does that work for you? Because I know when you make a decision to have that person on, and you say, okay, they have value, they have a story to tell. And I know there are a lot of people with eyes on them. And because as many people may be behind them, there are a whole lot of people who also wish them ill, wish them dead, like really hate these people. How do you navigate saying yes to that person? And then how do you navigate the conversation that unfolds when that airs and sort of like hits the public domain? Yeah, that's a great question.

I mean, I would say first and foremost that I'm not looking to be controversial. It's like, it's not my goal to be polarizing or to create some kind of clickbait controversy online. I'm interested in the humanity that unites us all. And with respect to Lance, you know, of course, I know going into that, there's a certain, I mean, there are very few people that are as polarizing as that guy. People have very strong opinions of him on both sides of the equation. And I knew going into this podcast that no matter

what I did, that wasn't going to change those people's minds. And I wasn't going into that interview to try to stir the pot either. My intention was to try to mine the humanity in this human being. And I was interested in exploring what it's like to pick up the pieces and move forward. He started this podcast. It's called the forward, right? There aren't that many people who have flown to heights that that guy has flown and then sunk to depths, you know, lower depths than he's had to face. And I wanted to know more about what that feels like.

If you're that person who was once celebrated like almost no other human on earth and then becomes this pariah, but you have to continue to live your life. And as a father. How do you do that? And to the extent that I succeeded or failed in trying to get to the bottom of that, the audience has to be the judge, but I certainly made the attempt. And he was reticent at first to do the podcast. And I just said, look, man, I'm not interested in taking sides. I'm not here to judge you. I don't judge anybody's path. But the way that I can relate to a human being like that is that I've been in dark places. I know what it's like to be a broken human being, and I know how difficult it is to face the prospect of trying to climb that mountain again. And I wanted to know about what it felt like for him to be that person. That's all. And in the wake of it coming out, of course, I knew I'm going to get attacked, whatever. And that certainly occurred. But my choice was to not really engage in the dialogue

around whether I should or should not have interviewed him. And I stand by the interview, you know. And, you know, we were able to connect on some level over those issues. And I think that that has value. And again, it's up to the audience to decide that, not for me. But I do it again.

But I mean, it brings up another interesting thing, which I'm actually curious, because when you rise into some level of public recognition. And so part of what you, you know, you've built now over the years is yes, you have a very successful media arm to the business that you're building, you have also, you work in some ways with your wife, with Julie, who is, you know, extraordinary at, on the plant powered side of things and with recipe creation, and you've created beautiful cookbooks. How many are, the original Plant Powered Way, then the This Cheese Is Nuts.

And then you've got the latest one. Yeah, we have a new one coming out, the Plant Powered Way Italia that comes out in April. So you're creating all this. Within all of this, you're offering a lot of value. You're also offering a very specific point of view. And just like on the podcast, you don't just ask questions.

You are rich role. You have a point of view. Your point of view is reflected in what you put into your books. It's reflected in the guests that you choose, who you say yes and no to, and the nature of the conversations that unfold. And again, some of those things are going to be received beautifully, maybe by most people.

And at the same time, the more public you become, the stronger your voice, the stronger your point of view and your beliefs are, the more you're exposed to criticism. I know you just like as a friend to be a gentle soul, to be sort of a kind, quieter guy. When that happens, and it always will, and as you reach, again, as the profile rises, it gives you more opportunity for impact, but also more exposure. How do you just on a personal level move with that? I'm still trying to figure that out. I certainly don't come from a place of trying to be a provocateur.

I do have a point of view. But I do my best in the podcast to be open to other people's ideas and to try to transcend my own dogmatic perspective on certain things that I'm, you know, hardwired to default to. And I don't, you know, I don't get involved in like debates over some of these issues. And I try to anchor my message in direct personal experience. And I try to avoid giving advice about how people should live their lives. I offer the perspective of my guests, and I'm happy to share my perspective and my experience with regard to issues that I do have experience with. And when it becomes polarizing for people, I guess my modus operandi is,

I don't really fight back. You know, if I get comments that say, whatever they say, I allow people to have their perspective and their opinion. And I don't get dragged into the mud by that kind of stuff. And to the extent that that turns people off, I don't know. I don't know what the reaction to that is. But I would say that

I don't get a lot of hate online or anything like that. So I haven't really had to deal with it in a way that I know certain other people have. Let's talk about you and Julie. So, you know, you've referenced her a number of times we've talked about. She's gone through this whole thing with you. She is also a strong woman, bright, creative, fierce woman who was an entrepreneur as well, like had a very strong career, you know, both in an industry and then on her own. And you guys have been navigating this together and working on and off in various different ways together. How has this whole journey over the last five, six years, what are the major sort of realizations or points of

reckoning just in your personal relationship that that stick with you or just awakenings are there moments that stick out where you were both like this is a moment we need to this is teaching us something about life but also this is teaching us like we have to figure out how we're going to navigate this together? Yeah, that's a great question. I think, you know, Julie and I are very different people in so many ways. We're hardwired very differently. She, like I said, has always been kind of my guiding force spiritually and a mentor to me in many ways about how to have a more mindful perspective on what's most important in life. But fundamentally, we share the same core values. And I think that one of the things that has been primary in our relationship is, as simple as it may sound,

is coming to this understanding that we don't complete each other. We complement each other and we work really well together, but I don't need her to feel like a fully actualized human being. And she certainly doesn't need me to do that for herself, nor does she look to me for that purpose. And I've had to learn to not look to do individually for ourselves. And then when we come together, we can have a spark and make magic. So, we're independent in that regard, I think. We have, you know, we've been together 18 years and I still am wildly attracted to her and I love being married to her and she's just the coolest woman ever. Like, I just, I don't know how I lucked out and got her. And we've gone through it and had rough times like everybody who is married. But I think the success of our relationship comes from that sort of understanding of our own independence and respect for that. That's allowed us to weather through more difficult times. Like Julie will always say,

I don't need you to sit next to me all the time. You go and do your thing, I go do my thing, and I trust you. I think there's a huge reservoir of trust that we have between ourselves that allows us to express ourselves fully in our own little disciplines, and then occasionally come together, like I said,

to do things together. Because when you're married and you also work together, the challenges are like, where is the dividing line between what's work and what's your relationship? And that requires work in and of itself to understand that and make sure that you're protecting your personal relationship and it and the work doesn't just bleed into everything yeah no i that is that is the work when you work

and you know with the person that you're with that's been our work also uh and it's not easy especially when what you do when you work together, you actually really love, it can easily consume all of your waking hours. You're like, you have to have triggers that just say, okay. Remember that other part of life that we like to do? Yeah, exactly. When you think about sort of, you know, over 18 years, if you think back when you guys first met, what you were up to, what she was up to,

and you think about where you are now, what you've been through, what you have, the gift of your family, your kids, a couple of dogs. Did you picture yourself a couple of decades out ever? And if so, did it look anything like this? Nothing like this whatsoever. Nothing like this. I mean, I couldn't even imagine it,

not only because my life is an embarrassment of riches now, but because the shape that it's taken is so bizarrely different than anything I would have imagined for myself. Like I was, I mean, a couple of decades ago, a couple of decades ago, I was in rehab, like a couple of decades ago, there was nothing going on. You know, I was just trying to see if my parents would talk to me again. Like that, you know, my, my, you know, perspective was so limited to what was right in front of me to make it through to the next day. And then with a foundation of sobriety, I thought I'm going to be a movie producer. I'm going to be an entertainment lawyer. And I was very focused on trying to, you know, be this sort of big deal in Hollywood, which was a fool's errand for me. Like it was a square peg trying to jam into a round hole for far too long.

The idea that I would be involved in wellness and be this athlete and like whatever, you know, have an occupation that is grounded in like content creation over the internet. Like what? You know, like no. So it's not the function of a script or like I said, some whiteboard plan. Like it's honestly been more a function of being as present as possible, as often as possible, and then trying to mindfully respond to my instincts and how they matched or mismatched the cues that I was getting from my environment and sort of adjusting accordingly with like micro decisions on a daily basis. Is there any map from this point forward? You know, I'm not like the five-year plan guy,

like here's what I want to accomplish this year. I have ideas, but they're not as structured as they probably are for you. I could learn a lot from how you forecast. And I can learn a lot from just like your willingness to sort of be with the qualities rather than the balance. Yeah, I'm much more in the surrender mode, I suppose. I mean, there are certain things that I want to do, you know, that I'm working on actively. But I don't have this like vision of like five years from now, this is what I want my life to look like. And, and I think perhaps in part, that's a function

of being really happy with what I'm doing right now. Like I'm so grateful that I get to do what I'm, that I get to sit here with you today and be in New York city and talk about things that are meaningful to me and meet cool people. And it's just, it's all a gift. And if the only thing that ever happened to me for the rest of my life is I get to like have a podcast, like I'm cool with that. You know, I haven't, I'm competitive and I have ambitions and the like, but I'm also very aware of, you know, the gift that I have right now. And so my kind of daily operating system

isn't to necessarily look to grow what I'm doing as much as it is to improve the quality of what I'm already doing so that the people that are already attuned to my frequency are getting the most value out of what I produce. Just letting that land. I really like that. It's sort of a mastery quest. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle also. So as we sit here in this container, in this conversation, Good Life Project, offer the term out to you, to live a good life.

What comes up? To live a good life. I should have seen this question coming. I thought about it on the way over here. It's not like I end every single conversation with it. To live a good life, I think, is to live a life that is grounded in both gratitude and service. The path to getting there will look different for everybody, but I think that the more open, willing, and committed you are to trying to determine what that spark is inside of you that is yearning for expression.

And the more you devote yourself to bringing life to that expression, that will guide you towards more purpose and fulfillment and ultimately something worthy of giving. And to be able to do that with grace and with enough presence of mind to be grateful for that, I think is what it means to live a good life. Thank you. Thank you, man. Hey, if you're still listening, thank you, thank you, thank you. I love that you've enjoyed this episode so much that you're still here. That's awesome. You are awesome. And while we're wrapping things up, might as well share a quick shout out to our really fantastic brand partners. If you dig this show, and I'm guessing you do because you're still here, please support them.

They help make the podcast possible. Check out the links in today's show notes. Oh, and don't forget also, grab your spot at this year's Camp GLP. I will be there. Our amazing family will be there waiting to hug it out, to talk it out, to just really enjoy our time together. If you've been waiting, be sure to register soon and lock in your spot and get our final $100 discount. Visit goodlifeproject.com slash camp today to learn more or just click the link in the show notes. See you next week. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.