Good Life Project - Romance Novels, Sultry Voices, Pacts with God and the Good Life

Episode Date: February 11, 2015

Have you ever made a deal with God? I’m guessing that’s a yes. It’s pretty common to get to a place in your life where you want to something so much that you’re willing to give up anything in exchange for it. But what happens in this scenario typically? In the words of today’s guest, “Essentially […]The post Romance Novels, Sultry Voices, Pacts with God and the Good Life appeared first on Good LifeProject. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

If I said to God, God, I am willing to sacrifice me as an artist, me as an actress, me as this crazy, wild, gypsy personality. If I was willing to sacrifice it and I move somewhere where people are normal and happy and I say that I'm willing to be normal and happy and even just get a normal job like working in a coffee shop or who knows what. I'll make you a contract. Would you then give me a husband and children before it's too late? Ever have one of those conversations that you never expected to have but in a moment changes everything?

Either changes the path of your own life or the person that you're speaking to? Well, this conversation actually starts around one of those conversations with an old friend of mine, Gabra Zachman. And the funny thing is, I was involved in the conversation and I have no recollection whatsoever, but apparently it triggered something pretty unusual. So we're going to dive into that. And I think it's also a really fitting episode because we're heading into Valentine's Day this week. And there's a really interesting interplay between love and romance and romance romance books. So with that, I'm going to leave you with the conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

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So we're hanging out, which is kind of fun for me because we've been kind of loosely in and out of each other's lives, a little bit less loosely quite a number of years ago, and then just kind of like touching base. And I reached out to you

a couple weeks ago, and I was like, hey, I got this idea, I think you'd be really cool to rotate in. And then I was like, let's catch up anyway. And you're like, you know, it's been a really interesting story for me. And then you were like the last, remember the last time we had a conversation and you remember what you said to me like right before we left? And I was like thinking, I'm like, it was either something really bad she's going to throw at me or it was something deeply profound that she remembered this whole time, and I have no idea what she's talking about.

And then you said to me… Right, it was a good couple years ago, and I remember I was right in the midst, right in the thick of an interesting life story. And you said, your next step is to write a book. Which, of course course I remember clearly. Yeah. And I remember thinking, I actually remember thinking at the time, yeah, that's cool advice, but I don't know that that's going to happen. Or it didn't register as something possible or even desirable at the time. And what were you actually, why in your mind? Like, what are you actually up to? We're hanging out in New York City, where my recollections were at a gotten, really, I was midway through the beginning of the best audiobook career on earth, which is as an audiobook narrator. And,

and that, that for a while, I was right in the midst of shifting that from being just a day job to being a craft, a career and a business that I'm incredibly proud of. So I think that's where I was at the time, thinking I'm already like, I've got my feet in two spaces already. One as an actress, one as a narrator. Yeah, they all fall under the umbrella of storyteller. But I don't know if I'm going to, I mean, does writing fit into that? I never quite felt the pull for that exactly. And you're reading books nonstop. I am reading books. I'm reading books nonstop. What kind of books? Well, they've ranged really all over the map, though. I think I really made my name in women's

romance, which means romance, which means chick lit, which means women's fantasy. But the voice of the voice of, of women's romance is, I think that was my portal in. And it's kind of been the spine and the backbone that has gone through my entire career up to this point. Okay, so before we move into the rest of the story, people are going to be wondering, they hear your voice now. When you're reading women's romance, are you reading the same way? And if not, can you give us a flavor of how and social studies textbooks for middle school kids.

And what's interesting is it's actually the exact same voice. So how is that possible? Well, because it's the voice of authority, safety. It's the storyteller's voice. It's a voice that's open and engaging. So is there a slightly different read when I read women's romance? There are slight differences, of course. I mean, it's, it's, you know, technically, there's more, there's more passion in the read, or there's more excitement or openness. But I find it's the same thing as it's exactly what you want in a kid's book. You know, you want there to be that kind of openness and excitement. But this is interesting, right? Because but what about middle school textbooks? Like, would in your mind, would giving it giving the read, sort of like that same level of enthusiasm or passion in some way change the way that a middle school student is read by the voice of women's romance than you would by the voice of men's business? All of a sudden, it's like, I don't know, but like enrollment in middle school algebra is skyrocketing.

Suddenly, my God, those numbers seem sexy. Dang. Yeah, I mean, I think it's that thing. I remember taking at one point a class from an amazing voiceover teacher who was saying, when I was reading this copy for a hospital, and she said, you're making it far too sad when you're talking about diseases. She said, we actually want the opposite. You want there to be hope when you're talking about, you know. So I think it's the same thing when you're talking about diseases. She said, we actually want the opposite. You want there to be hope when you're talking about, you know, so I think it's the same thing when you're reading about algebra, you want just a little sex in it. Maybe a little hope, a little hope, a little something to get those kids through the day. I totally get that. So you're, so you're

having this great career and expressing yourself in certain ways. And like you said, I love the fact that you sort of said you're moving to the point where this is what you do for a living. You're really good at to into that space of craft, because that's something I'm kind of becoming obsessed with now is that transition. And, um, we'll, I'm going to come back to your story. I promise. But I think that's a really important point because how long do you feel like were you reading books and working on this before you got to a point where you're starting to say to yourself, this is becoming beauty. This is moving to a place where it's a form of artistic expression on a different level.

Well, this all links back really to the same point. I trace all of it back in some way to a breakup that in some way broke me open. And that started me on this crazy journey that led all around the country and into all these different doors. So let's go there. Right, let's go there. So it started there. And I remember in that point, literally mid breakup, I remember doing these recording sessions where suddenly, the words were something very different to me. Then suddenly it wasn't just me reading a story in a dark booth. It was safety. It was comfort. It was joy. It was understanding. There was like a whole different level of understanding and compassion that was intersecting between me and the language

that I think was allowed to happen because I was in a space that was really broken apart. One of the women whose work I've read a whole series of, amazing, amazing author, her name is Kira Davis. At one point I met with her and I said, I just want you to know what your work has done for me because in a moment when I was so sad in my own life, I read your characters and it felt like old friends and I felt like I was suddenly being taken care of in a whole different way. And she looked at me and she said, do you know, I wrote that when I was going through a divorce for the same reason. And so I began to then think

of all the books I read and especially women's romance in a very different context, you know, who is listening to this and why, you know, is it someone who, is it someone I always talk about this, like, is it that woman in the Midwest who is vacuuming the rug after dropping five kids off at school? And it's my voice that, that is giving her the 45 minutes that she has in order to have some kind of escape or joy or compassion or, or, or fantasy transportation away from life. I don't know. I sort of, I wound up engaging in a whole different level with all these books.

I was also reading, I was reading a children's book at the time that I remember also was like, it was beautiful and it was so comforting. I would like read these things and then I would leave the booth and I would weep and then I would come back in and continue recording. It was hard on the voice. That was tough on the voice. Screaming and yelling with an X and then weeping and then recording book after book after book.

It was a tough time on the voice. So you're going through this incredible, deeply emotional, breaking open experience at the same time, which affects in a profound way the way that you're actually earning a living and doing your art that's right um and in the same way that's flowing through for other people to experience that energy in some way infused into what you're doing and um but what's interesting to me is that this was sort of like the first part of the answer and the response to making the transition to a level of craft and artistry. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That the first part was breaking me open. The

first part of craft and artistry was breaking me open. And then something happened, you know, part of it had to do also, we could talk about this for hours, but there's been a huge shift in the industry. If we're talking about audio books, right? Been a huge shift in the industry where suddenly it's exploded with the advent of technology. And so what does that mean? It means that a ton more people are producing it and a ton more people are doing it, which means what? Which means now we've got a ton more people who are getting work, which means what? Which means we're hiring lots and lots and lots of people who actually haven't done this for years and years and years, like I had the privilege of doing, and who aren't steeped in craft, but who think it's a really nice

way to make a living while they're trying to get their acting work. And there's this same teacher once said, oh, I loved this quote, voiceover acting is not not acting. So I think, you know, so I think I think we all that's Sherry, Sherry Hodes. Awesome, awesome teacher. But but voiceover acting is not not acting. You know, I mean, I think that's the thing is that maybe we all got into it for that. And I think we all did. I think we would all say, oh, God, what a great way to make a living while we are X, Y, Z. And then the more that I've been in this, the more that I have seen that every

skill I've had up to this point, you know, I went to graduate school for classical acting. There was a lot of voice and speech in that. So voice and speech work and dialect work and the ability to tell a story and the arc of a story and the depth and emotions of a story. That's what we're going for in these pieces. We just put them all in the voice. They're not on the body. They're in the voice. I so agree with you.

And I'm an absolute newbie to voice. But I'm a little bit obsessed because now I'm listening to all the best storytellers and all the top podcasts and the top public radio shows and audiobooks. And I'm going down that rabbit hole now and I'm trying to figure out like what is it and um and we produced a web series along with this that we literally wound

down not too long ago and when we did that and i made the announcement that we're going from you know broadcast quality video to just two people in the mic yeah you know there were a lot of people like yeah that's amazing and explained why I was doing it and created different intimacy. But we had some people who were like, I'm visual. I'm a designer. Everything I do, I really need the visual to help me tell the story. And what's interesting is that was the immediate reaction. I've since heard from some of those same people who said, I grudgingly listened to the audio.

And it was extraordinary. And I didn't expect that. Like I didn't expect it to be so intimate and moving, but there's something that happens when you remove the visual cues, which is like something like 80% of our sensory processing and just make it voice. That's right. Cause it's all gotta be in there. Right.

But it also means that if that's the only, also means that if that's the only thing, then the responsibility and the invitation, the possibility of doing good at it, and you're acting, you're storytelling, you're doing this, to this is a master at their profession. My sense is just like almost everything else that goes on these days, there's an expectation of instant. And because everybody has access to a microphone and a free recording app these days. That's right. A free recording out these days. That's right. But I think there's, so there is a less of a tolerance for the time that it takes to actually master craft, which gives you like that, that shift to, I just experienced something extraordinary. I don't know why. I don't know how it's different from everything else I've listened to, but I know it is. And in my mind, very often, that's where the craft comes in. But it takes time. No, you're right. It really does take time. You know, I'm

part of, it's a pretty small community of people who are in the audiobook world and who are doing it regularly, right? It's a fairly small community. It's now a big community of people who are doing it sometimes. But in that community of people, we started to have regular meetings at one point. Someone got together a meeting of people to say, let's talk about why this is a craft and how we promote this as a craft and why it is that you could buy the same story read by two different people and have a totally different experience. How do we get this out to the world? How do we explain to the world? You know, and it was the beginning of kind of a lot of really, really interesting conversations with people about why this is a craft or how it is a craft. But I think you hit the nail on the head by saying time is a big factor, you know, that

it even took me, I mean, I'm so embarrassed to tell this, but it's always great to tell the embarrassing things. But I think I was in, I was working for the National Library Service. So that's the nonprofit version of the audio book field for the blind. And I was, I was, I probably had worked for two to three to four years before I ever listened to an audio book.

And the reason why was because something had happened. I had gotten a bad review, I think, of something. I'd read one commercial book and I'd gotten a bad review and I didn't understand what the reviewer said. You know, I was like, what do they mean? And then I thought, oh, maybe I should listen to this. And I listened to some of the greats in the field who have now come to know. And I was like, oh my, oh, oh. So it's like step one is actually listen. But that's not that's not what I did here. I was like, years worth of work of just like telling these stories and really doing it quite, quite abysmally badly. But with great enthusiasm and great, you know, and like and like a cool voice and great enthusiasm. But, but God, it took me it took me a long time to understand where the perspective comes from in an audio book and how genres change and what the purpose of the narrator is and how to vary your voice in a way that's enough but not too much, maybe. Yeah. No, I love that. It's amazing when you hear, whether it's an audio book or a spoken word piece or something that's read live on stage, somebody who has that level of craft and mastery, it'll move me to tears. And there's nothing else going on. There's one

person and a microphone. There's no music. There's no imagery. Well, there's imagery. It's extraordinary. And there's an evocative emotion, but it's coming from one, like the words and then that one person expressing them in a way where it bypasses every conceivable defense that you could put up, that you do put up all day long, straight past the brain, straight into the heart and boom, it just breaks open. I love it. It's amazing when that happens. I love it.

But rare. Yeah. Rare. No, it is. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

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So let's kind of circle back into your story. Okay. So we're hanging out and you're going through this really tough time. And I apparently plant the seed that says you need to actually not just be reading, but writing. You did. No, you did. And I don't take credit for the journey that kind of happens soon after them but you actually kind of start to go out and can we call it um some form of hero's journey oh yes oh yes i love that well i'm a huge huge huge joseph campbell fan anyway i've got one of his uh tattoos uh one of his tattoos one of his quotes tattooed on my back. Which one?

I call it one of his tattoos. The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are. Which, when I show that to people and I say, this is what I'm aiming for in my life, they all say, you already are that. Do you feel it? I mean, well, I don't know. I think we're all, but I think essentially what we all want to be is what we already are, you know? So I understand that they see that.

But yeah, no, this has been, I would say there's been like a five or so year journey towards really authentically being who I am, which involved an actual journey, as well as lots of emotional and metaphorical journeys. Yeah, so take us into it. So about, let's see, almost exactly two years ago now, I decided to move myself to Denver, Colorado. Why? Why Denver? Well, I had done a show there a couple years before that. I fell in love with it. I just loved the West. And I thought I needed a shift of perspective. I wanted to see what life was easier and the quality of life was better and people were healthier and people were nicer and happier and everybody was better looking. And I just wanted to see if that was true.

And I had the ability to do it because I have careers that travel. And I sort of thought in my mind's eye, I mean, the whole thing, of course, is about romance because I thought, would it be possible if I said to God, God, I am willing to sacrifice me as an artist, me as an actress, me as this crazy, wild, gypsy personality, if I was willing to sacrifice it, and I move somewhere where people are normal and happy. And I say that I'm willing to be normal and happy and even just get a normal job like working in a coffee shop or who knows what, I'll make you a contract. Would you then give me a husband and children before it's too late? So I made this sort of proposition to God in a way and went off on this crazy journey. And when I first landed

there, I started writing, I started to keep a blog, actually, that was all about my search for romance. And, and I thought, this is just my way of keeping my intimate collection of friends, you know, in the know of what's going on here. And Lord knows, I've got funny stories. And Lord knows, there will be more. And I'll just write them all down on this blog. And about a week after I landed, my dearest friend from childhood or one of them and one of the great writers in the world, Abby Scher, passed me on something really interesting. She told me that her agent was looking for someone who could write romance and was I interested.

And I thought, well, I'm totally totally lonely here I don't know anyone it would be a nice way to learn the cafes and bars of the West so I'll give it a try so I connected with her agent we had some conversation back and forth I wrote a couple of chapters I explored Denver this way you know by finding a place where I could put my computer down and have a drink or a coffee and write. And she never read it, never read. Then I wrote maybe half the book. I wrote about five, six chapters of this book. And finally she did read it. And when she read it, she said, you know, she said, I don't like your title because I think it's boring, but the story is really great and I want to sign you on. So she signed me for that. And she said, now you have to finish the book.

So I finished the book. I did several rewrites. One of my other best friends, my friend Anna Stone, is a lover of reading romance. And so she would read for me and edit and we'd pass it back and forth. And during this time, because you've been reading this stuff for a long time. Right. You know the stories, you know the beats, you know everything about it. Because not because you've studied it so much, but just because you've read it so much that you just know this stuff.

Was there any thought that, well, sure, I can read it, but who am I to write it? Oh, yeah. I mean, I don't think I am a great writer of it. And that's what's so interesting is that here I am, and I know the form inside and out. So it's interesting that the thing I chose to write is not in the form. You know, I could be writing a romance, or I could be writing chiclet, or I could be writing, you know, I know each genre. But instead, I'm writing a funny romance spy caper, which fits in like two to three different genres. I mean, could it be sold?

Probably not, right? Because it's not written in the genre that it should be written in. And this is the way these things sell and this is the way these things go. But it was the romance that I needed in this time in my life in which I was lonely and broken open and there seemed to be no hope anywhere. And I was trying desperately to seal this contract with God that said, I'll give over all of it if you give me what everybody else seems to have. You know, the interesting thing that I learned at some point is that there's no God who I would respect who would agree to that kind of contract. All right, go deeper into that. Well, I don't think there's any God who I would

respect or admire who would want me to give up the things that I love and am clearly put on this earth to do in order to find the kind of life that everybody else seems to have. I don't think there's any God who would want this very unusual, vibrant, crazy, funny, gypsy-like presence to dim the light in honor of looking like everybody else. Which is interesting too, because across nearly every faith, there's a substantial body of teaching around austerity and not isolation, but austerity and giving up. Surrender. Pieces of that which you may feel make you you. Right.

But maybe that's not really what it's about. Maybe it's penance. I don't really know. It's interesting for me because I'm a deeply spiritual person, but not all that faith-driven, so I don't know enough about the teachings. But it's interesting that you would sort of look at it that way. All right, let's keep rolling. Yeah. So I finished writing the book, and I proposed this to my agent, who, by the way, had to teach me everything because I'm not a writer and I don't know how to do anything.

Right. So she then said, you have to write a pitch for this. So I wrote a pitch. And she was like, this isn't a pitch. You know. For the publisher. Yes. Exactly.

She was like, this is not a pitch. And she talks to me the way I love people to talk to me, which is honestly no holds barred. And she'd be like, no, Gabber, this is wrong. This is not a pitch. And this doesn't work at all. Write this again. So she was not from Denver. No, right. That's the old joke is that people are like, yeah, well, anybody would have to move to Denver to get a New York agent.

To get a New York literary agent, one would have to go to the West. Of course. Yeah. So she taught me how to write a pitch. And I pitched this book as a four book series. And it was purchased, actually, right around my 40th birthday when I was completely panicking because I was 40 with no prospects, single, no husband, no children. But I was working on one of the best new plays I've ever worked on, which was a play by John Cariani at Jiva Theater Center in Rochester. And I had just gotten a three-book deal with the digital imprint of Simon & Schuster, which is called Pocket Books. And I thought, oh, my God, what have I done?

Because now, sadly, wonderfully, amazingly, horribly, I now have to write the other couple of, now I have to actually do this now that I've pitched it and somebody's actually bought it. So I wound up being in Denver for about a year and a half. And in my time there, I had an extraordinary time. I could have lived a life there, you know, an extraordinary, extraordinary time.

But I realized, you know, I had gone there really to find romance, which I didn't. You know, I found a whole bunch of wonderful, funny stories and beautiful friends and new experiences. But I thought maybe God had a hearing problem and thought I said I wanted to write romance. Either that or God really does have a wicked sense of humor. Like, you want romance? Sure. Go sit somewhere where you have the time where you can actually write it. She was distracted at the moment you were making the promise, and she just caught the last part of it. That's right. Like, he's got cauliflower ear, you know,

and just sort of heard it, but kind of. But, you know, in my time there, what was interesting is that I wound up, my audio book work deepened. I wound up having a home studio and doing all these projects. I was featured in the New York Times on the front page as being an audio book narrator while I was in Denver. This book stuff took off, and I wound up acting in theaters all around the country. Like my, me as an artist took off in the moment in which I had said to God, let's, let's end this. I am willing to give all of this up if you give me the other thing that I want now more. And I think God's answer was, nope, not that way. Then what way? You know, well, here's what I learned. So here I am in Denver, Colorado, which is,

by the way, stunningly beautiful. Yeah, I love Denver. I know, right? Quality of life is better. It's easier. It's cheaper there. The people there are kind and beautiful. The men are beautiful, you know.

The world is open there and closer to the heavens, being up on that mile-high mountain. But sadly, what I learned is that I'm a New Yorker, which is a terrible thing to learn when you're like, oh, God. I've been through this numerous times. It's just awful. It's just terrible to be like, but my soul loves cobblestone streets and jazz coming up out of the sewers and people who talk to each other in the middle of the road. And I mean, nobody hunks in Denver. I couldn't get around it. Like,

I like it when people honk. I like it when people say what's wrong with you. The lights been turned for three seconds. I would just like sit behind people in Denver for like a week, like being like, no one's honking. And then it got to the point before I left there when like when someone would honk at me, I would be like, whoa, buddy, you know, like, whoa. But yeah, you know, I think it was for me about a colossal shift of perspective. going to be one of those people who says, there's romance in the trees and there's romance in the buildings and there's romance everywhere. Like hippy dippy talk about where romance is and that it doesn't just occur between two people, right? But then like I go off on this crazy journey and I come back here and like, I watch the light filtering through the buildings and I think it's so romantic. And I'm in now the best apartment I've ever lived in. I'm one of those old pre-war

apartments in this like old Irish neighborhood of Sunnysyside queens and i'm like god it's just so old school and romantic here and you know the way the fog lies over the hudson river it's so romantic and so suddenly i see romance in everything which is pretty interesting because i'm i'm still single right i still don't have the things that I'd really authentically desire, but I don't know. It seems like romance is everywhere around me. So now I'm recording it, and now I'm writing it, and now I'm acting it, and now I see it everywhere.

Maybe that was part of the lesson. I mean, in a weird way, it's like you thought the elixir in your hero's journey was the man and the family and the house. That's right. And maybe that's still part of the journey. But maybe the bigger lesson is that maybe the elixir is actually just your ability to see and experience it without that. Right. And maybe that's actually the gateway to that physical manifestation of a human being that's involved in that.

I don't know. Well, I think it kind of has to be, doesn't it? I mean, I think it is the gateway, you know? I mean, and hey, I'm the one who had it tattooed on my back, the privilege of a lifetime as being who you are. So I did it. I said it in ink on my back that it's all about me authentically finding the romantic human I am.

I imagine before I find the one that will complete the picture. And it's a pretty interesting picture as it is, isn't it? And so that's real interesting. So coming back here now, 40 years old, single, with this very cool career, but often feeling like a wild wild failure in my life but coming back here and really having no desire before you move past that yeah why uh because i feel like because from the outside looking in a lot of people are going to look at you and be like well like that's like she's a person i aspire to be as an individual, fully expressed, funny, snarky, brilliant, killer career. Gets to wake up in the morning and do what she loves.

Mobile, can be anywhere in the world. Right. Why would you, beyond that one thing that we've talked about, there isn't a man and a kid. Right. If there is something beyond that, what would make you feel that? I don't know. It's a good question because you're right. I do think lots of people look at me that way with great, great admiration and as a great

trailblazer. But as my mother likes to say, it's awfully lonely sometimes when you're that kind of personality, you know, when you're like blazing a path. I don't know. I sort of feel like I had all the makings to become really more extraordinary on every my mind's eye, I don't know, I sort of feel like I should have been, I mean, we all feel that, right? A lot of that. I should have been, I should have been, you know, an actor on Broadway rather than the country stages, or on film rather than an occasional TV show, or I should have more voiceover work to, to my name than just this wonderful ragtag audio book career or, uh, or anything. I mean, I'm a, I'm like, um, I'm a journeyman. That's the word for it, right? It's a great word in terms of craft that I'm a journeyman. I'm a craftsman. I'm like a, I'm a sort of like an American craftsman

in all sorts of crafts which just leaves me without without a whole lot of maybe notoriety and any notoriety it's not the right word but uh without uh it leaves me without being being a jack of all trades is a master of none right so i i have a bunch of trades that i purvey and without being a master of any and my identity largely comes from a lot of that, because it's not coming from what I perceive to be the greatest thing on earth, which is love between partners. So in that respect, I mean, that's really where my ideas of failure come from is that I see myself essentially as being the best wife and mother on earth, who is not a wife or a

mother, certainly not in any conventional sense. Hard not to feel like I missed a big boat somewhere. So what do you do with that? Well, I don't know. I try to live a great life. I really try to live a great life in the absence of what I deem to be what I was sort of put on earth to be. You know, in the midst of this whole journey was the death of a dear friend, one of my other best childhood friends, which is just about a year ago now. But that was all happening, like watching her battle one of the big Cs, right,

was going on in the background of all of this and was very much in the foreground, I think, of all of this, was that this sort of all started with the breakup of relationship and ended with the death of a best friend. And in her honor, I promised her that I would love my life. And I literally was what I promised upon her death is that I thought, I'm going to come back to New York. I'm going to be around everybody I know and love. And I am going to love the life that I've made, even though it's not what I thought it would be or what I think it should be, or it's missing some pretty big things to me, but I'm going to love the life that I've built. I'm going to dance in it. And that's my gift to her and hers to me really,

actually. Do you feel like you're doing that? I do. I actually do. I actually do. I mean, I feel like I spent like a bunch of years struggling with my own failure, like failures as a failures, as a as an actress, as a as a as a wife, though I wasn't I was a girlfriend, but really, you know, as a partner, failures as a homemaker or failures as a as just someone who could get up in the morning and rock the world. You know, I struggled with all these feelings of just not being what I thought I was set up to be in this world. But now back here, I don't know. I feel totally different here. I love my life here now. Now living in this unbelievable apartment, and I get to do what I love. And I'm like, re-meeting all of my old friends again, but from a different place. And so I feel like I had a chance to do what nobody gets to do, which is to take my eyes out, wash them off in wine and put them back in, you know, rose colored, rose colored eyes. from a totally different perspective. So now I don't walk around feeling feelings of failure because I don't think about that anymore.

I just feel like if I get up in the morning and I get dressed and I go out into the world and I treat people well with compassion and love and humor and I get to do the work I love to do, then I'm a rock star and I'm rocking the free world. Do you still aspire for more? Yeah. You know that, but it's really interesting how things changed by this journey to the West. So I, I don't, I, you know, for the first time I've really gotten to build the home I always wanted here. The last home I really built was I was

so young when my ex and I were together and we were like living out of milk crates. And then when we broke up and he left, it was me like trying to reconstruct a life within an old space, which just was terrible. It was like an albatross, that apartment. And then in Denver, I began to make a home, but I knew it was temporary. Either I was going to move somewhere else in Denver or move back here. And now I'm in a space that feels like home. It feels like the place I always have lived or should have lived. So it's the first time I've ever really built a home here. So what do I aspire to? I aspire to getting to partner with someone in that home because it feels like it there's like

enough space in it for me and my partner and a child from somewhere I don't even care where from maybe it'll be theirs maybe it'll be ours maybe it'll be adopted maybe it'll be an older child I don't it doesn't care I don't care I don't care but it feels to me like home it feels like it feels like grandma to me it's one of those old pre-war apartments with a bunch of my grandmother's furniture in it and all of my artwork and all these like power symbols of women all over the walls. And then all of these beautiful symbols of love all over the walls, of partnership, of true love, sculptures I put in the windows. It's like it's the most romantic apartment that I think I've ever seen. So it's much more like there's now rather than being driven 24-7 by the need, you've created a life where you're good, but you're also really open. Oh, yeah.

No, I'm great. It would be great if this would happen. That would be awesome. But I will not forsake this moment because it hasn't yet. That's right. That's exactly right. And, you know, of course, the humor of all of this, which, which we can all understand and appreciate, which is that somehow, and I thought for sure being 40 and single and

like exhausted and back, back in this, you know, beaten down from these journeys that have not quite worked out the way I thought, I thought for sure, there's just there's not going to be no possibility I'll ever date anyone again. But coming back here, it has been like, and I'm really I'm in some weird way not interested, right? Just not really interested. But it is like beating them off with a stick. And I never experienced that never once not when I was young young young not in high school or college or in my 20s or I never experienced this many men being like let's go out when I get together let's hey and I'm not even interested at all and this is from like like going online and I don't know what the phenomenon is

that suddenly all these guys in their 20s are really interested in a chick in her 40s. And I'm not interested in that. But I find it very charming that so many of them are. I find it funny. I find it charming. I can't quite bring myself to even go out with any of them. I find it so weird. I'm like, I could be your mother, actually.

Maybe that's a cultural phenomenon we're in. I don't know what's going on. But of all ages. So it's men in their 20s, men in their 30s, men in their 40s, men in their 50s. There's suddenly a lot of people who desire me. And keep in mind, this is pretty much like if we look at the online stuff, it's the same dating profile I had up before I went to Denver. It's now got updated pictures, and I looked better then.

You know, I looked better a couple years ago. But it's my pictures of me now with maybe looked better a couple years ago but it's my pictures of me now with maybe some slight changes of language but it's the same thing and i can tell you nobody was contacting me a couple years ago so what's to account for that i know it's awesome it's so weird yeah it's got to be energy right right i mean again that's where like i go from the science driven show me the data mine to there's something in the ether that you just, like I say, the older I get, the more open I become to things I can't explain. That's right. That's right.

And that's all I can think is I'm like, you've got to be kidding me. When I wanted this so badly two years ago, three years ago, four years ago, and when I looked better and was interested in all of this, it was like crickets. There was like an occasional date, but not much of anything. And now I can't go online. I can't go to the dating site because if I do, there's then like 10 emails from people being like, hey, hot stuff. Hey, gorgeous. Hey. And I'm like, hey, hot stuff. Hey, gorgeous. Hey, you know, and I'm like, I couldn't even, I couldn't be less interested either. I don't know. Do people really say stuff like that on online dating sites? I've actually never, I've never,

I've been married for a long time. So I've never actually gone down that path, even though it's a huge way that people meet these days. So now you piqued my curiosity. Are there, is it really like all those classic old school? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. know, it's my curiosity. Are there is it really like all those classic old school? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. No, it's remarkable. And actually, at some point, what we should do is we'll do a roundtable. And and we'll bring up we'll do a little online dating stuff. And we will actually look through my profile.

And we'll go through some messages that say things like and I don't even know what's going to happen. It's got to happen. No, it has to happen. But the stuff that's like, hey, gorgeous. Hey, this, hey, that, that doesn't bother me. I'll tell you what does bother me. What bothers me is, and this happens more and more, is stuff like, we are a blah, blah, blah, blah. And it starts with that.

And you're like, wait a minute, I'm so confused by what I'm reading. Oh, it's a couple that wants a swinger in there with them. And they're advertising as a pair on an online dating site. Say, here's who we are. And here's who here's what we're or guys who are like, Oh, this one made me so angry. This this one was, was, hey, I'm in an open relationship. And, and I think you're gorgeous. And so I can just, we can just sort of have a casual thing, because I'm actually married with a six month old. And I'm like, you're married with a six month old. And while your wife is breastfeeding your baby, you are wanting to have an affair with me. That is disgusting. But it's an open

relationship, right? No, it's anyway. So it's stuff like that, that I get that I get furious about all the other stuff I find delightful when guys are like, hey, baby, hey, gorgeous. I find it charming. It's totally charming and wonderful. And it's like, oh, it's so nice. I can wake up in the morning in my sweatpants and read someone being like, hey, gorgeous. Want to go grab a drink? That's cute.

That's charming. It's the other stuff that makes me crazy. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun.

On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.

So, what are you up to now? Good question. What am I up to now? Well, I'm on a deadline to do a rewrite of book one. And that's Monday's the deadline for that rewrite. And I've written book two. And then the deadline for book three is in March. So here's what's interesting about this particular rewrite is that you would think, yeah, women's romance, whatever, blah, blah, blah, right? And, you know, your editor for women's romance, blah, blah, blah. You might think that. As it turns out, my editor is brilliant, sharp as a tack, fierce, interested, challenging. She basically reads what I've written. She buys the thing. And she reads what I've written. And she says, great. So this is a good book. And it's a bunch of good ideas. But

basically, I think you can write this better. And I think you can write it deeper and truer. So here I now have someone smarter than me, who is telling me that she thinks that I can write a deeper, truer romance. So it's pretty cool. I didn't expect challenge to come from that portal. But this woman's pretty fierce. Abby Zeidel at Pocket Books, fierce, fierce, brilliant lady. So that's what I'm in the middle of. I'm just about done with that rewrite. And I've been trying in the midst of moving into this new space and seeing the world with different eyes to write a deeper, truer romance. Is it working? I think it is. I don't know. I mean, how could it not be? You know what I mean? Right. If I'm seeing the world now with like rose-colored eyes, how could it not be? I guess is rose-colored eyes deeper and truer? Good question. It's a really good question.

I don't know. It's really tricky. You know, I loved all of her notes and all of her directions have been great and they've been really tricky because the question is, how do you write a deeper, truer romance within the genre of women's romance, which is actually about really about fantasy. And it's about in some ways, the kind of fantasy we all dream of, but can that also be deeper and truer? Can it be? That is the question. To which I certainly have no answer right right but it is an interesting question you know like how far it had like how do you balance that emotional need for fantasy

and escapism probably to a large extent to with um it's got to be real enough and transferable into enough that's right to actually resonate and for you to feel like I'm in the book. Because I don't know this for a fact, but I would imagine a lot of people who read romance the same way that a lot of people who read any sort of hero's based journey or any sort of deep fiction with some sort of sense, they find themselves wanting to be or transferring into the role of the protagonist. And it's got to happen unconsciously. That's right.

Well, it's who I want to be, right? I want to be every character that I'm writing. Literally everyone. They're all like fierce and funny and gorgeous and charming. And, you know, they're fighting international crime. They're assassins or they're undercover agents. They're all having romances with each other. Now I want to read other. I'm like, finish it already so I can read it. Yeah, no, I'm deeply in love with all of them. And there's some of me in all of them, you know. So

there's one character who becomes the lead of book two, who my editor basically said, she was like, so if we want this guy to be the lead in book two, he's got to – she basically said he's got to stop making so many dick jokes. He's got to be – but that's who I am. That's actually who I am. I'm very bawdy. Right. Which is kind of funny because I know – And so he's me.

This whole conversation, like 47 minutes in the conversation, I'm like, I know, Gabra. And I know you're filtering a lot right now. I am. Well, I don't know exactly who the audience is. So I'm like, I better be a little on the cleaner side. So take us 47 minutes just to get to the phrase dick joke. Yeah, I know. But that's me, right? So I wrote this dude whose name is Jackson. And he's like one of our undercover agents in book one. He's the same guy in book two, but he becomes our lead, you know, romantic guy. She basically was like, listen, you know, he's a little too crude at times. And there are too many dick jokes. And I'm thinking to myself, I think he's so funny. And he's me. He's actually me.

You're like, what are you saying about me then? Wait a minute. Well, and then she said she was like, you know, keep the humor there, but don't undermine the better parts of your story. Like don't undermine the romance with the humor. Right. And I thought, oh, isn't that me to a core? That is, yeah. Talk about personal. I mean, that is not just editorial.

No. No, it's all very, very, very personal. So interesting. And how like you then learn from the comments that an editor would give you about the characters that you're writing in a book. Right. About and that informs the way you potentially are living your life and may look at the way you're living your life in that moment forward. That's exactly right. And it's informing it's informing who I am as a romantic person putting myself out in the world. Yeah. And maybe the way you're being perceived that you might not be aware of. Oh, I think I'm perceived as him.

I think he's the one in some weird way who's most like me in the book. Is this like jokey, like this like cool jokey dude who's always trying to diffuse the energy with a joke. Right. It's entirely me, you know, which is actually not the way I would like to be perceived. So. Interesting. Yeah. it's entirely me you know which is actually not the way I would like to be perceived interesting so let's come full circle here name of this project is good life project so if I offer that question up to you

or that phrase to live a good life what does it mean well it's a perfect question for right now so I'm going to refer once again to the tattoo on my back. The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are, right? So I think, and this is for my friend, Sammy B., who passed away. She really danced through her life.

She also really danced through the end of her life in a way that was awesome. And in her honor, I'm now dancing through mine. And I think that's it. I think whatever the life looks like, because it doesn't look the way it's supposed to for any of us. So with however your life looks, if you are able to enjoy what you got while you got it, and dance your way through it, I say you're rocking the shit out of it. That's my thought. That's the best life you can have. Rock what you got. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you. So I hope you found that conversation great. I had a lot of fun reconnecting with Gabra around it.

Amazing how momentary conversations can lead to really huge shifts in the way that people are living their lives and how expectations can just completely either create or shatter the um, the reality of what happens in your lives and how let going of expectations, um, let going, how letting go of expectations and opening yourself to serendipity can open doors that you never, um, even knew existed. So I hope you found it really valuable. I love the conversation and always learn a lot from my awesome guests. Again, if, um, if you are in the game to try and make this a pretty powerful year, a year of accelerated personal or professional growth, of building a vocation that really matters to you,

check out our Good Life Project immersion at goodlifeproject.com slash immersion. And if you enjoyed this episode and you think somebody else might enjoy and benefit from it as well, please go ahead and share it if it feels right to you. And if you'd love to head over to iTunes and maybe give us a thumbs up or a short review, again, only if it's legit, only if it feels authentic and real, I'd so appreciate that. Have a wonderful rest of the week. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required.

Charge time and actual results will vary.