Good Life Project - Roundtable: Susan Piver & Lodro Rinzler – Part 3

Episode Date: April 13, 2016

Today's Good Life Project Roundtable™ features guests-in-residence Susan Piver and Lodro Rinzler. This is the last session in their three-week residency.Susan is a New York Times bestselling author, teacher, and founder of the international mindfulness community, The Open Heart Project. Working to create a good human world, one breath at a time.Lodro is a teacher in the Shambhala Buddhist lineage, the author of five books on meditation, and the founder of M N D F L, a new studio making meditation accessible to all New Yorkers, and the Institute for Compassionate Leadership. They'll be our guests-in-residence for the next three weeks, so buckle up.Our three topics in this episode:Who do you idolize and why?What does the future of meditation look like?There's no such thing as bad weather, only bad clothes.It's fast-paced, fun, utterly unscripted and at times a bit raw, but always good-natured and very real. Enjoy! And let us know if you like this format, over on social media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Today is final installment of Good Life Project Roundtable with our guests in residence, the third and final week in residence. We have Susan Piver, Shambhala meditation teacher, New York Times bestselling author and founder of the Open Heart Project, which is the largest global online meditation community in the world with something like 15,000 members. Also joining is Lodro Rinsler, also an author, meditation teacher, and founder of the Mindful Center in New York City, which is a really cool drop-in meditation center in New York. And I'm really excited to dive into this conversation with them and to wrap up our residency with these deeply real and funny and wise human beings. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. For their third and final week are the fantastic Susan Piver and the incredible Lojo Rinsler. If you haven't heard our earlier episodes with them, the last two, go check it out. They're awesome human beings. So we're going to start out with Susan.

What's on your mind this week? Well, here's a question I wanted to ask you guys. Who do you idolize? And I mean idolize. And why? So fictional? Could be fictional. Could be past. Could be present, could be public figure, could be your pet. I feel it's such an interesting question because I have great admiration for some people, right?

Like I have great admiration for President Barack Obama. in addition to like having done a good job in this role i think it's just a genuine human being that it's able to like show emotions and vulnerability from a place of strength and these are things i admire but i don't i would never idealize okay so i guess not idealize but idolize is different than idealize you know you're right idolize i i think i idolize our teacher, Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche, who's my Buddhist teacher, just in the fact that I have profound respect for the way he lives his life. Like, there's something really interesting. Like, I'm the sort of meditation teacher that will work myself to the bone. And by that, I mean, like, I started teaching yesterday at 7.30 in the morning.

I didn't stop till 9.30 at night. And there was lots of meetings in between, like, I just, you know, there's no clear boundaries, I know where I fall down, basically around that sort of, and wherever I notice, oh, I'm not doing a good job of blah. I look at him, I say, he's got it right. You know, and that's sort of what it makes for me it's like oh i idolize this specific element the fact that he has a really beautiful balance between his work as a tibetan buddhist master and a father and husband and he can do those things and he's fully 100 there with someone when he's there with them and then goes home and is 110% there with his family. Like, there's something really remarkable, and I idolize that aspect in particular.

Yes, he's wise and kind and compassionate and wonderful, and people should check him out. But I think that's something, when I look at where I fall down, I see he's doing an amazing job, and I think, I want to be like that. That's what it means to me. That's great. And I want to amend like that that's what it means to me that's great and I want to amend my question a little bit who do you idol love?

you know it's like not just who do you love? I guess that's what I meant by idolize you just love them you respect them you admire them yeah it's a great

I feel the same yeah it's like the questions I almost think of like who do you want to be when you grow up right exactly if you ever grow up exactly yeah you know it's like it's funny when you first asked the question i actually had a knee-jerk reaction to it was just i don't idolize anybody you know it sounds like it's perfect right which is not what and it's also just i've a i don't know anybody who I actually put on that. Like when I think idolize, I think put on a pedestal.

Yeah. And to me, like the only thing that can happen to somebody once they're on a pedestal is they can fall. Right. And then I also, the other thing that I think is like the only thing, unless I have like a really deep, long lasting relationship with this person, which you both have with the second. For me, the people that would come close to that, I don't. They're more like people that I've never met. And because of that, the only thing that I could know about them is what I know from the outside looking in. And I have no sense of what their true inner life was. I have no sense of how they struggled or flourished or what was secretly going on underneath the hood. And I'm always really hesitant

without actually knowing somebody to put them in that space. That said, there was a person that came to mind shortly after that. And what I reflected on was, so we've been doing Good Luck Project now for years, and I've had this just astonishing opportunity to sit down with some of the most incredible people.

And a couple have stood out to me as people who are, and some have become friends, but a couple have stood out to me where either I walked away from the conversation and said, I would live that life. Or I walked away from the conversation and said, this is a person I deeply admire. One was somebody who we just talked about in our last roundtable, which is Brene Brown. Yeah.

Who is, I love her stunning brain. I love her wisdom, but I also love her vulnerability in humanity. I love the fact that she is a badass Texan. You know, she's faithful. She's wise. She will say what's on her mind in the language that she wants to say it in.

She's like snarky and funny and real. So I don't idolize her in any way, but I admire her ability to bring herself to the world in a way that is utterly her. The other person that came to mind is Milton Glaser. That is the single biggest conversation that I walked out of and said, I would live his life. And for those who don't know who Milton is, I sat down with him a few years ago now, and he was, I believe, 86 at the time. He is the most iconic, one of the most iconic designers in history. He designed the most ripped off logo in the history of the world, which is iHeartNY, and was paid nothing for that, by the way.

He founded New York Magazine. He created thousands of iconic posters and pieces and brands and businesses. You know, the fame, like that famed Bob Dylan poster of his profile with like rainbow hair illustration. So a lot of people know Glazer's work, but don't actually know him or that it was him. And what made me say I could live his life wasn't the fact that,

was in part the fact that he's had this stunning career, 86 years old. You know, the body of work he's created has touched so many people's lives. It's really mind-blowing. But that wasn't really it. I mean, that was amazing. But what was really it was the life that he was living. So in his late 80s, he's still running. He's incredibly prolific. And he has been since the time he was basically six. He runs a design studio, a flourishing design studio. He works four days a week at his studio.

And then he goes, he would go up to his country house with his wife where they would just be and enjoy life. He teaches, so he was giving back. So he taught, teaches, I think, I don't know if he still teaches, but he was teaching for something like 40 years at Cooper. So he became this incredible sage and people would just turn and like every time he opened his mouth, he just wanted him to say more. Because he had spent so many decades deeply thinking about the questions that so many of us gloss over and offer platitudes. So it was like, you know, drinking from the source, just spending a little bit of time with him.

And I walked out and I said, so here's a man who's deeply committed to the woman that he's been committed to his whole life. You know, his family is still massively prolific doing the work that he's wanted to do since he was six years old and committed to doing and has been doing. Incredibly successful, like financially and also built a body of work that's touched many people's lives, is turning around, teaching the next generation. And I stepped away from that, and I was just like, if there was one exemplar of everybody who I've sat down with, of I could see myself living that life, that was it. That's awesome. That is awesome. I is so beautifully told. I can see and feel

what you feel. It's great. And why. Why those things are important. Yeah. What about you? I'm going to amend my original question

one more time. Who do you respect, I guess, is maybe the inner meaning of the question. Okay. So three people come to my mind. I'll keep it brief.

And in addition to our teacher, Sakyong Mipham Rinpoche, who I respect eminently. Yeah, this is why I answered first, so that you couldn't do it. Well played, sir. They're just like, me, me, me. Well, his father, Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche. I, that guy was brilliant. And also controversial and unknowable. And people say to me sometimes, well, how can you like him so much? He slept with ladies.

And he, you know, had a drinking problem. And I'm like, yeah, I know. But, you know, all I know is his mind through his books. So, every time I think, oh, that guy was a charlatan or who also was really smart or he was just crazy wisdom who used sex and alcohol to help people or every time I think anything, immediately, my next thought is, I will never know who that guy was. Yeah. Ever. But the breadth of his genius touches me in, I would say, almost every moment of my life. I just cannot express my gratitude enough.

And then, in a very different way, when I think, oh, I would live that guy's life, I think of Seth Godin. Nice. And I know this is like, okay, everybody's got their craziness, everybody's got their weird crap, and okay, whatever. No one is idol worthy. But Seth's mind is so wonderful. has a self-created world where he basically operates on his own, chooses the things he wants to do, goes out, has enormous impact, comes back, thinks of a new idea, and throughout it is incredibly kind and helpful to others. I don't know how he does it.

And he's just been a very kind, I don't mean like kindly, I mean generous with me and many other people. And then the final person, it would be my personal father, who died in 2012, but just possessed. And I keep asking myself, do I just say this about him because he's dead and I miss him? But I don't think so. He's so kind, so sweet, so... He was a bodhisattva. So humble. He was great. So, that's my answer.

I really appreciate the fact that I'm sitting at a table with people who, when it comes down to the qualities that we emulate, it's giving back, it's being kind. Absolutely. It's really pretty wonderful and unique. Yeah, it's funny.

As you were mentioning Seth, too, I was like, oh, I should have said Seth also. But what's interesting is he lives a real – it's all the things I admired about Milton Glaser, really, really similar with Seth. We also know Seth as a devout family man. Yes, there's a lot of really big similarities there and they're generous to

a fault and incredible. Love that guy. Yeah, agreed. Lojo, what's on your mind this week? My mind is full of it sounds like a time headline, the future of meditation. Oh, interesting.

Okay. So meditation's been around for thousands of years. Just by virtue of starting this thing called Mindful, this meditation studio, we're getting a lot of attention from pressing. Like, is meditation going mainstream? Is it all of a sudden about to hit this tipping point? And it's just going to go crazy all of a sudden about to hit this tipping point and it's just gonna go crazy and everyone's gonna be meditating and sometimes i think oh maybe they're right like maybe we're at a point in the same way that in 1950s physical fitness

was just starting to bloom you know back then someone would say i'm going for a run they would say who's chasing you and now it's like oh we all go for runs or we go to the gyms and there's whole industries around this. There's apps, there's, you know, all sorts of things for fitness. So are we hitting that point with meditation? What does that look like? I mean, Susan, you run the Open Heart Project, which is this beautiful, compassionate, kind community online for meditation. You know, like there, so is there technology to be played what is it going to look like and then what does it mean in today's world for someone to identify themselves as a meditation teacher might be a sub category within this i ask myself those

questions every day what is the future of meditation we're at a very interesting crossroads, I think. And there's no telling. I mean, I don't think it's ever going to be like yoga, because you don't get a cute butt from meditating. So I just don't think it's ever... Wait, wait, wait. Wait.

Sorry, guys. Lodra's website says the front page of MindFall is Come MindCuteButt, come visit. Okay, present company. The front page of MindFall is... There's lots of pictures of my butt there. Come mind, cute butt, come visit. Okay, present company excluded. Isn't that your new slogan? Yeah, that's what's on adult, the t-shirts too.

Free your butt and your mind will follow. So, yeah, you're not going to get those benefits. Right. As far as I know. Superficial benefits. That's right. Yes. And it's hard. Meditation is hard and it is boring and it's anybody who tells you it's not or gives you

some technology where you can shortcut it is not doing you a favor so i think it has natural controls built in because it's it's it's uncomfortable and that's part of it so my question that comes up to me is not so much what is the future of meditation in our country but what is the future of buddhism and we've talked about this before because the mindfulness that we're talking about is buddhist related yeah buddhist based So what about that part? And how will it work to separate the practice from the path? Which I think you can't do. You can't do it sustainably,

because if you separate the practice from the principles behind it, you think, why am I doing this? This is so boring. I have a lot to do. I guess I can't do it. I can't meditate i have add or whatever we all say you need the support system you need the path and you need a community and and so mindful is i know we've talked about this lodro and i as mindful the meditation studio is

coming into being like and and i asked you because to me the power of the practice comes from connection to lineage not that anyone has to be a buddhist or have a teacher but the transmission quality is i was taught by someone who was taught by someone who was taught you know theoretically all the back all the way back to the buddha doesn't mean i'm the standing in for for the Buddha, but there's that through line of transmission is very important. And how will you do it, Lodro, in a studio where there's multiple lineages and people can do, try various things? And you said community.

You said you felt like community is going to be the power point, the anchor point, the thing that will keep it real. And that really touched me. And I think that's great. So I think this also connects to a lot of the work you do, Jonathan, about belonging and how people search for that and need that and how we can offer that and what it means to feel that you do or you don't belong, my hope is that meditation will become like this giant belonging machine where you can meet others. And find that support. So yes, there's lineage teachings, right?

So mindful, it's important to us that all of our teachers have a lineage. It's a Vedic lineage. You study with Tom Knowles, you study with Maharishi, you study with, it goes back 5,000 years, or you study with Dave Perrin, who studied with, you know,

Sakyamipam, who studied with, it goes all the way back 2,600 years. But then in today's world, that people come face to face and actually say, this is what it means

to me right now. As I get the age-old, time-tested techniques, this is how I'm applying it to my life. And I think that only happens in community. Now he needs a nap. Just kidding. Kidding.

Kidding. Now, I can't remember, Susan, whether we talked about this recently or whether it was another conversation, but yeah, the idea of sort of like you know the the golden triplet of you know like the the teachings um the teacher and the community yeah you know there's a reason that those have all existed you know like in concert with each other and i think what we're seeing now is as meditation and mindfulness in particular mindfulness has gotten kind of so sexy these days that it's sort of leading the charge because people are like, oh, well, you can clinicize it and strip it away.

It's what Jon Kabat-Zinn did when he started the MBSR program, essentially created, okay, let's make it a clinical eight-week thing where there's no dogma, there's no theology, no philosophy, no. There's nothing around it except just the practice. And let's teach it in a format where you're actually in community and you have a teacher, but that's not associated overtly with any particular. It's not like, okay, we're all going to spend eight weeks diving into Buddhism. It's just, no, this is stress management, but we're going to do it in community, and we're going to mix in some yoga also to get your body moving. And I think we hit this tipping point. I feel like it was literally a couple of years ago, maybe two years ago, where mindfulness just all of a sudden became like, whew, it's here.

And it helps you feel better. It helps dissipate stress. It helps you perform. It gives you the edge. And all of which it can. And at the same time, it can also open up, you know, like a can of stuff that you need to process. And, you know, the way that you process that most effectively is, you know, like in relation with a teacher in a community. What's interesting to me is that a lot of people now are coming to the practice through apps, through technology. So initially I'm like, oh, that's awesome. And in fact, I even have URLs reserved that would create technologies

that just introduces people to the fundamental practice. And then using the lens out, you're like, okay, for the vast majority of people, that alone will have like a certain amount of benefit. And at the same time, for some people, the stilling effect is going to have is going to create, you know, like, it's going to lay the foundation for stuff to bubble up. Exactly. That would be really helpful to process in relationship with a teacher in a community. And, you know, like, so to me, the future is I see

technology actually flattening the world around meditation and just making the fundamental practice accessible on a level that it's never been before. At the same time, I would hope that sort of going back to what you said, Susan, and also Lojo, that that would sort of just be like a point of entry. And that would sort of inspire people like a point of entry yeah and that that would that would sort of inspire people to move into community and to potentially find a teacher who just because it's better that way yeah i think it does i mean my experience with the open heart project which is so curious right because you have like 15 000 people meditating with me yeah and like i started four years ago thinking i need to build my list because I want to self-publish someday.

And I think everyone should learn to meditate. So I'll just offer. I didn't want to just say, give me your name for a newsletter. What's going to be in the newsletter? I don't know. Let me offer something. And so I'll give you a 10-minute meditation video once a week. And I thought, oh, good.

Okay, then it was 1, Okay, then it was 1000, then it was 10,000, then whatever. And then a couple years went by. And those people started to experience the effect of practice and wanted to go the next step. And so I thought, Oh, this is not just popcorn, like poop meditation video, you know, happening indiscriminately. I have to somehow find a way to integrate, help people integrate their experience. So I started the Open Heart Project Sangha community, which is, you know, there's about 500 people in that now who have encountered that stuff, just like you say, and want to explore the path a little bit more. And so it's invariable that it will happen. It's just inevitable, not invariable, that you sit with yourself, you relax,

you do that enough times, your heart starts to open, all the stuff that you got buried in there starts to poke out. And then what think oh this meditation is bad it's or it's making me feel very disoriented and that's according to classical buddhist wisdom that is accurate that is to be expected you start to enter a state of groundlessness and then you need teachings so it's been really interesting to actually see that happen. And the people want to become Buddhists, some of them, and nobody has to, obviously, but how are they going to do it if they live in a yurt? There was one woman, like the first person who asked me, lived in a yurt in Alaska or something. I'm like, she can't go to a Shambhala center or Zen Center. So tomorrow, actually, we're offering our second refuge vow ceremony online with an authorized refuge vow giver, not me.

Which means what? Refuge vow to Sri Buddha. Thank you. That's the ceremony by which you formally become a Buddhist. They're going to take refuge. They're going to become Buddhists online through the Open Heart Project. I never envisioned that, ever. It's very interesting.

So I think the technology, and people say, and this is the last thing I'll say on it, well, isn't it weird to do it all online? And I say, it's weirdly awesome, because people assume, maybe people my age anyway that it's impersonal but it's actually more personal i find because it looks one-to-one it's like you're looking into someone's eyes and it doesn't look like you're one person in a room with a teacher on a stage it feels very one-to-one so so the environment is intact. You know, it's interesting because I think when we founded Mindful, it was this idea of, okay, you know, we are the entry point. We're just that.

We teach meditation, and at some point you say, we think, oh, we're a meditation university. You come in, you study with a wide variety of teachers, you test out all these different lineages under one roof. Only time that's really happened. Then you say, oh, I love Joshua and Kate and Sabine. And we're like, great, those are insight meditation teachers. Go to Insight Meditation Society, study there.

And some people are doing that, and they love that, and or they stick around. And so we're also getting people that are like, I love them, and I'm going to keep studying with them here. I want to take classes with them here. I don't want to go explore that other place. Yeah. Which is really it.

So it's an interesting thing right now where we're encountering like, okay, do we do more intermediate stuff so that there is more path quality? Do we push them out of the nest, so to speak, but say, hey, we're always here for you to come sit with us? What is the deepening process? So, I mean, this is a really active question. What is the future of meditation for me? Because I just see we're creating a different type of meditator, people who might not necessarily want Buddhism, or maybe they do, but they don't want to go somewhere

that they perceive might be alienating, or I'm not exactly sure what their concern might be. They want to stay with mindful. They want to stay. Because that's where they discovered it. That's their love. That's where they feel is their club their home so i'm fascinated by the question i can't wait to see how you answer it because it's a very complicated question so um let's come full circle final question so it's

hanging out in the berkshires a couple of uh weeks back for those who don't know the berkshires are this kind of little area in western Massachusetts with really cute little towns. And this was sort of the deepening part of winter. And I was actually reconnected with an old buddy of mine who had taken up road cycling and become just a really hardcore road cyclist. And that morning, at the crack of dawn, he had woken up and

this was probably a day where I was, you know, like 15 degrees outside and gone and, you know, like put in his 40 miles on the road. And it was bad weather that day also. And I was like, oh, I said, you know, there's, there's no, and I used to be a cyclist, like hardcore road cyclist and then mountain biker. So there's no way you're going to get me out on the road. You know, like doing anything like that. As soon as like you get bad weather, you're like,

I'm done. And he looked at me and he's like, he said, there's no such thing as bad weather. There's only bad clothes. And now this is the point in the podcast where you critique our outfits. I didn't want to go there, but I felt it was fitting after three weeks.

I like your outfit. It's interesting is that that phrase stayed with me because it was actually so much bigger than just that conversation. I'm curious how that phrase or that idea lands with each of you. It reminds me of the old

gosh, how is it? I'll just paraphrase. pain is a part of life but suffering is optional sort of thing you know it's like there's always going to be weather and for us meditators it's a very common analogy to talk about like the weather of our mind because we sit down on the meditation cushion we don't know if we're gonna have a day that we're completely with the breath or a day that we just draft angry emails to everyone we know. It's just the weather of our mind. It's like the natural weather of our mind. These sorts of things are going to come up,

but then when we're sitting on the meditation cushion, what do we do with that? Do we actually apply the discipline of like, oh, I catch myself. I don't beat myself up for thinking. I just come back to the breath. Or do we spin out and think, oh, I'm just the worst meditator of all time

that i'm even having weather you know it's like what do we what do we do if and then off the cushion like if there is pain in our life which there often is pain uncertainty anxiety whatever it is how do we either acknowledge it see our way through it or do we just perpetuate it by spinning out a lot of storyline hoping it would be be another way, all of that. So the close, and for me personally, the way this is landing is that notion of like, of course there's going to be weather, but what do we do about that? How do we relate to it? Yeah, I've heard that before actually, but in a different context. I think I was reading an article not too long ago, a couple months ago,

about how people in Norway view the winter. And the Norwegian view is there's no bad weather, there's only bad clothes. But I heard it in different ways. That's what you're saying, my friend didn't actually make that up. Well, I don't know, maybe the Norwegians stole it from him, I don't know. But I heard it landed in two different ways, in these two different contexts. Like when your friend said it, it made me feel like, oh, I better toughen up. I probably should try harder and don't be a pussy for lack of a better word. Just don't be weak, just be strong. But when I heard it in the context of

the Norwegians, I heard it as you can enjoy anything. Your job or your task is to find a way to enjoy this thing that you might actually think is suffering maybe your friend meant it in the same exact way and i think enjoy doesn't mean oh i'm not cold when i am cold it means you know like suit up for the actual circumstance so that you can enjoy being human and not, you know, hide and be a hermit. So anyway, I just, it landed in two different ways. And I think both, you know, be good to be a little tougher. Sure. And I don't know if that's how he meant it.

And, you know, there's nothing you sort of can't go into with, you just have to prepare yourself. It's great. Yeah. And I kind of felt like right in the middle there also. I was thinking, okay, so if there's something you love to do, and it's dependent on external circumstances that sometimes can make it a lot less pleasant to do. You know, like rather than, so my answer would have been, I'll get back on the bike in the spring. Right, exactly.

I don't do cold. I'm like, I don't do cold. And he's like, I like cycling. Cycling brings me joy. If I can do it every day, I feel better. So, you know, like let me, but I can't control the weather. And the weather is a big part of whether it makes, I'm happy when I'm doing it. So let me figure out, like, how much, if I can't control the weather, how much can I control of what I'm bringing to the experience that can make it so that I can still do it as much as humanly possible because I like it.

And I remember, I'm a runner. And I remember when I moved to Boston from Texas a long time ago, and I was like, I can't run out there. It's very cold. And one day I just made myself do it. And I warmed up like you do when you run, even though I thought I never would. And then there was ice and puddles.

And I just was like, I'm doing it. I'm out here. I sort of conquered this situation and I can be I don't have to be afraid anyway it was just a really good moment and I assume that's what he meant too yeah I think so also

so we're coming full circle we've been hanging out for three weeks now with guests in residence Susan Piver and Lojo Rinsler thank you for putting us up in your home this long. Well, you know. Feeding us, taking us out to dinner every night. We thought the request for daily massages was a little over the top,

but frankly, I like to make sure you're happy. And as we wrap up this residency, any just sort of like quick closing thoughts from either of you? Not mandatory, but anything just comes up. For some reason, the thing that just pops into my mind is don't be afraid. Don't be afraid.

For me, I just feel like so much of the through line, similar but related, these last several conversations, it's just been like, how can we show up fully authentically for our life and ideally in a way that's helpful to people and i really appreciated the opportunity

to have that sort of conversation with really thoughtful individuals like yourselves yeah that's really great can we so we're gonna do this again starting for the next three weeks because i got i gave up my lease i don't have anyone to speak to. I know. Your cat's getting a little annoying now. I'm allergic. Just bring your cat over.

Okay. So, Susan, where can people find you? They can find me online at my website, SusanPiper.com, or just Google the Open Heart Project. And Lodra? Online, LodraRinsler.com, although I seem to be living also mindful these days. So come on by and meditate with me. I just love the conversations and meditation this particular time too. Thank you. Awesome. Thank you both.

Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real unscripted conversations and ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that too, and if you enjoy what we're up to, I'd be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds and rate and review the podcast. It really helps us get the word out. You can actually do that now right from the podcast app on your phone. If you have an iPhone,

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