Good Life Project - Ryan Holiday: How to Make Stuff That Stands the Test of Time.

Episode Date: July 17, 2017

Guest: Ryan Holiday is the bestselling author of multiple books, including The Obstacle Is the Way, Ego Is the Enemy and Growth Hacker Marketing.His company, Brass Check, has advised companies like Google, Taser and Complex as well as multi-platinum musicians and some of the biggest authors in the world, such as Tim Ferriss, Tony Robbins, and Arianna Huffington. His latest book, Perennial Seller, Ryan reveals to creatives of all stripes—authors, entrepreneurs, musicians, filmmakers, fine artists—how a classic work is made and marketed.Story: The art of making stuff and bringing it to the world. Stuff that lasts. Stuff that is designed to endure the test of time. We dive into his journey of becoming a writer, which was certainly not linear, and he's written some provocative things about what he's learned about the world of media, marketing and manipulation.Big idea: What we're really creating when we create something that we want to matter in the world.You’d never guess: At nineteen Ryan dropped out of college to apprentice under Robert Greene, author of The 48 Laws of Power.Current passion project: He does all this while minding a herd of longhorn cattle, goats (Bucket, Biscuit, and Watermelon), chickens, ducks, geese and a miniature donkey and a five-acre lake filled with bass, catfish, and sunfish at his Texas ranch outside Austin.Rockstar sponsors:Thrive Market has all the top premium healthy and organic products that I usually get from a grocery store but unlike your typical organic & non-GMO products that are marked up to premium prices, Thrive Market sells the same organic & non-GMO premium products at wholesale prices! To start your FREE 30-day trial, 25% your first purchase and FREE shipping by going to thrivemarket.com/GOODLIFE. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

At the end of the day, all things that are successful are successful because of word of mouth, you know, because somebody said it was good and you should read it or watch it or they saw it on your wall or that you were, they liked the shoes that you were wearing, you know, that's, that's why things sell. And so if you're not making something great that is designed to capitalize on word of mouth, you're making something that is inherently fragile. Today's guest, Ryan Holiday, is a national bestselling author of a whole bunch of different books. His latest called Perennial Seller, which is all about the art of making stuff and bringing

it to the world, stuff that lasts, stuff that is designed not to be a flash in the pan, but actually to endure the test of time and be there 5, 10, 15, 25 years from now, whether that's a book, a body of work, a company, a product, a brand, whatever it may be. He also has a pretty interesting background and his journey into being a writer was certainly not linear. As he describes, a lot of things overlapped to bring him to the place that he's at. And he's written some provocative things about what he's learned about the world of media, marketing, and manipulation. So really interesting deep dive, excited to share his wisdom with you and some of the bigger questions around what we're really creating when we're creating something that we want to matter in the world.

I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

It's funny, I was kind of thinking back over sort of like what I've known of you and what I've known of your life over the last decade or so. And it feels to me from the outside looking in that you've lived like a series of just profoundly different lives in the last 10 years. Does it feel like that from the inside out? It does a little bit. I try to think, that is the weird thing because I'm still pretty young, but I feel very old. Yeah, you're 29, 30. 29, yeah, I turned 30 in a couple months. So I feel like, yeah, I feel like there's been very distinct chapters in my life, but then when I look at it historically, they very much overlapped. You know what I mean? Like, I wrote, like, you know, I was at American Apparel for a long time, but I wrote my first book and then I stayed there for three more years, you know.

So it's like they seem like very distinct chapters, but they overlapped. And so I think I'm good at sort of compartmentalizing different phases like while they're happening. So, yeah, I feel like I've done all these different things, but somehow I did it in a much shorter amount of time than they should have been. Yeah, because like you're doubling up. Yes. Well, and I remember I read something like that from Chris Anderson. He was like doing the math on how long it takes to get your 10,000 hours or whatever. Then he said, you know, it's like three years for each 3,000 hours or something.

Something like, he was saying 10 years is about what it takes. Right. But I think I kind of compressed them maybe in half the time by doing more than one thing at the same time. You know what I mean? Yeah, I mean, maybe your brain just sort of, I mean, I'm fascinated by the whole concept of deliberate practice

and the quote 10,000 hour rule, which we kind of know is complete bunk at this point. But yeah, so let's fill in the gaps a bit for folks who don't know you. So you grew up in Northern California, Southern California? Yeah, I grew up right outside Sacramento. Ah. Beautiful town.

I'm like of the age where my mind immediately goes to like the Bradford, like eight is enough, and sort of like I'm a different generation than you. It was just a middle class suburban town. Yeah. You know what I mean? Nothing exciting. What were you into as a kid? You were a music guy, weren't you?

I was really into music growing up. I think I knew that I didn't want to have a job, but I didn't know. I think this is common. Maybe it's different for you. But I didn't know anyone that made a living doing something other than from a job. Yeah. So it's like I loved reading and I love books, but then you don't meet anyone who's an author. I was thinking about that for my kids. They'll know a lot of things that would have been

super exotic or weird to me as a kid are going to be totally normal for them. I think I knew I wanted to do something creative, but I also knew that I couldn't do something creative because that's not a thing that people did. So you were guided by like, whatever, it's not valid unless I can actually see somebody else making a solid living doing it. I don't know if I thought that it was more just like that was for some someone else or something else because I didn't see any, what's the path for doing that, right? You know, it's not my parents were like, oh, you do this, this, like that wasn't available. It's like for some kids who grow up and no one in their family has gone to college. It's not there's no path for them to go to college.

It's not conceivable. I think that was my situation. But for like a creative life. Yeah. So you ended up in college, but for a short stint. Yeah, about a year, about a year and a half, two years. What happened? I really liked college, actually.

And I went to college. I chose I went for two reasons. One, it was near LA, which was, uh, closer to people who did creative things for a living. So I think I had that. And then the other, the other part was my high school girlfriend went to the same college, which, uh, shockingly did not work out. And then, so I was sort of there and it was like, what's, you know, what's next? Who do I want to be? And as soon as that relationship ended, I sort of poured myself into the creative side of things. And I ended up – I was writing for this college newspaper.

And I ended up reaching out to authors that I knew. And I started – then I met – it was like, oh, these are just people. Like this is what – do you know what I mean? Like they're just people. And this is a thing you can do. It's like a process. But basically anyone can do it. What was your intention reaching out to them? Was it to just find out how they did what they did?

I think so. Yeah, I think I was like, you know, how does this work? You know, like, what do you get appointed to this position? You know, like, how does it work? Apply. Yeah, yeah. I remember I've said this before, but I remember when I was talking to Robert Green, who ended up was one of the authors that I worked for. I remember I was like, how does the index on a book get made? You know, like, it was like, I was just fascinated with the whole process. And there wasn't anyone, like, who do you ask these questions to? You know, like, even as a fan, who do you ask, like how that stuff works? So I think it was partly for just interest and then also because I wanted to do it. Yeah. Which by the way, three books in, I still don't know how the index gets made. That was his answer.

He was like, somebody, they just give it to you kind of. There's like some person who in the back somehow loves making indexes and they just go through. Well, I remember for, I think it was for Obstacle. There's all these things you don't question. And then I remember the publisher saying something about, like, there wasn't enough space. I was going to have to cut something to make room for the index. And I was just like, do we have to have an index? And they're like, no.

And I was like, wait. Like, you know, there's all these things you take for granted. It's just, this is how it's done. Right, the assumptions. Yeah, I was talking to Jason Fried and he told me that he'd asked his publisher if he could put the copyright page in the back and they were like no one's ever asked that before huh that i mean the whole industry and i'm sure we'll get on this rabbit a little bit but that industry is since there's such mass change and disruption i think for some people it's causing tremendous amount of pain for others to sort of salivating saying, Ooh, there's so much possibility here. So you end up basically

getting just really deeply fascinated by the world of writing and writing books when you're sort of a little bit into college. Some good did come out of your college years that you met your wife. Oh, totally. Yeah. I mean, like if there was some way I could have done both, I would do it. And if I could somehow be a college student again permanently, I would probably choose that. You know what I mean? Like, I love the collegiate environment. I was just chafing at the having to be in a classroom all the time when I wanted to go do these things. Are you more of an autodidactic?

I am, but, like, and i think now i would i would appreciate college much more that the irony is that we send the people who are least likely to appreciate just the specialness that is like this old you know these old buildings filled with some of the smartest people in the world just hanging around talking about things the idea that like as an 18 year old is going to appreciate that, you know, is belied by the fact that they all just get trashed every night and, you know, are out of literally out of it. Yeah. It's, it's an interesting experience. And that whole thing is changing pretty dramatically too. Totally. So you're developing this interesting interest

in creativity and books and writing yet yet that's not your next step. No, no. Then I went out and got a job, right? The thing I was not that interested in doing. So through Robert Greene, who happened to be on the board of directors of American Apparel, which is at the time this very hot fashion company, I came on as like a strategist, I guess, sort of an unnamed position. And I ended up working my way up through what was a very untraditional company. By like 22, maybe 23, I was the director of marketing. So I had a lot of people working under me, you know, my ads were seen all over constantly in the media. It was a very sort of surreal experience. But again, it felt, you know, these timelines are overlapping, you know, quite a bit. So it's like, I'm studying

writing, but I'm also showing up at this day job every day. And so, yeah, it's not totally clean, but it was also sort of showing me the business side of things and the brand side of things, which I think is one thing that a lot of creative people miss, right? We think one, we buy into this idea, like if you build it, they will come, which is not true at all. And then we also we also start to believe these things are somehow gross or that this somebody else's job or whatever. And so I think learning and seeing how these things can be scaled and you can have a lot of impact, you can reach a lot of people very quickly, I think was also, plus I'm also just seeing, you know, how power works, how ego works, how business works, how mistakes are made. You know, I'm seeing things that ultimately are fueling the writing too. I think that's another problem that a lot of writers have, which is, and this goes back to the college thing is, so you want to be a writer. So what do you do? You study writing and you spend all your time writing. And I don't know about you.

I don't think writing is that hard, right? Like stringing together the sentences, there's definitely levels of doing it, but I don't know about you, but I never find like, I can't write sentences. My trouble is,

do I have good things to put in those sentences? Not so great. I mean, I completely agree with that up to a point. So I'm a huge fan of going out and living your life. Like I'm like, you know, I can't remember some famous person who, you know, some famous dead writer once said something like, you know, how vain it is to sit down to write before you stood up to live.

And so like, and that quote has always resonated so powerfully because there are so many folks, me included, like I'm raising my hand along with everyone else. I'm like, oh, I want to go to Great American or something, whatever it is. And the idea of having the raw material, for that greatness to come, yes, the craft has to be there. And that takes time. Maybe you found shortcuts because your brain thinks that way, but I haven't found a way to hack the craft yet. But even if you've got like stunning craft, if you don't have the raw material, like the stories, the grist for that, to me, it's not going to get you there. Well, and I think it's much more likely that great experiences in raw material can translate

into good writing than good writing can compensate for bad material. Yes, I agree. You know, you have to be like this virtuosic genius to be able to create great sentences from nothing. But, you know, if you can barely type, but you've lived it. Keith Richards could write his, like, obviously he probably works on the ghostwriter, but you know, his life lends itself to literature much better than the best writers life will ever lend itself to literature.

And so, so yeah, so I think it was going out and experiencing these things is fueling the writing. And then I think, look, I think the way you get better at writing is by doing lots of writing. And so they fuel each other.

The more, the more you have to say, the more you're going to say, and then the better you're going to get, not only at how you say it, but at what's the difference between a great thought and an okay thought, but doesn't rise to the standards that you're holding yourself to. Yeah, so great. And I mean, you referenced the 10,000 hours, the deliberate practice. And when you actually look at the research that underlies that, what you find is that the best of the best in the world practice an average of four and a half hours a day, not more. Yeah. And they're living their lives outside of that.

And that's important. Yeah, totally, totally. And I think also with the 10,000 hours, the thing that I think was missed in what Malcolm Gladwell was saying, I agree with the theory in the sense that to be really great at something, you have to do it an incredible amount of times. And that mastery is this sort of elusive goal that we're all chasing. There's a difference between being a master and making a living at something. And that's huge. Totally. Huge.

And so it's like when I wrote my first book at 25, I was not a master of anything. I would say I'm only marginally further along from there now. But that didn't mean that someone didn't write me a nice check and I didn't publish a book with my face on the cover and my name on it, right? And that people didn't say it was pretty good and like it and it sold. So, like, I think it intimidates people. They think, oh, after the 10,000th and one hour, I'll get all these opportunities. You might get the opportunities after the first hour, or you might get it after the 20,000th hour. It's not like a diploma or something. And this is part of what you write about in your newest book,

right? Perennial Self. There are also plenty of people who reached a point of astonishing level of craft and mastery who have no career. Totally. Yes. You know, there's more to it. There's more to actually building a living than craft. You know, I think craft is the thing that can elevate you, but there are a lot of people who, that is not the whole equation. So you're working at American Apparel, which, which by the way, when you're there, you're, it's, it's a really provocative company that's pushing a lot of social norms. And you're one of the guys who's behind the scenes pushing those norms. Yeah. Yeah, I guess. I thought, I thought, you know, it's weird how the story ends up,

but I thought it was going to be, you know, like how Guy Kawasaki worked at Apple early in his career. It looked like it was going to be one of those things. It turned out very differently, of course. But, yeah, at one point it was probably the biggest fashion in terms of impact companies in the world. Yeah, it was getting to do. I mean, like when you could have an idea and then you see people actually wearing your idea or, you know, you have an idea for an ad and then you see it, you know, on a billboard and then you see a New York Times article about that billboard. It's very cool. It gave me a good sense for sort of what makes people talk, you know, what boundaries are worth observing and which ones are sort of negotiable. And, uh, yeah. Do you feel like you found those boundaries as much by pushing up against them as,

as you did pushing past them? Yeah, I would say so. And then also watching other people around, you know, it's like, I'm not in charge of the company. So my, my decisions are, it was interesting because I could have an opinion about something and express that opinion. And then what ultimately happened wasn't my decision. So it was sort of like, I would have a theory and then I would see that theory get tested either by not listening to me or listening to me. So it was just a very, it was a very educated, I see that as sort of being my college education in a lot of ways. Like it was just learning how so many different things work. And I met, I think the other thing that is good about opportunities like that is like,

who do you meet or sort of what radar do you get on as part of what you're doing? Because that's the hardest part from a creative standpoint is like, there's so many people trying to make their name and doing whatever you're doing. How do you stand out? How do you break through the noise? And so when I wrote my first book, I already had broken through the noise a little bit. And then I was doing a book versus starting the other way around. Right.

So I'm trying to remember, was the first book Confessions? Yes. Yes. Right. So what was the full title? It was Trust Me, I'm Lying, Confessions of a Media Manipulator. Right. Which is essentially you saying, hey, listen, let me pull the curtain back and show you

what's really happening in the media. And you also raising your hand saying, yes, I've done a bunch of this. And some of it I'm proud of. Yes. Some of it, not so much. Some of it, maybe not so much. But I feel like I'm in a position now where it's probably a good idea for everyone to understand what's really happening and then use that information as you feel is ethical in the context of your life,

your business. And look, I mean, I think that book is also sort of showing how these things work when a lot of these trends were in their infancy. And now where we're talking now in 2017, a lot of these things have now become sort of full-blown crises or sort of they're the new status quo. So, you know, in 2012, when you're talking about how blogs are fueling the mainstream media system, it's somewhat relevatory to people, and they didn't totally understand it or how it could be manipulated.

And now it's like, oh, I get it. Yeah. And well, I think especially in the news cycle in the last 12 months, I think people are really saying like, whoa. Yes. It's not just fun. Right. The truth isn't always the truth.

Yes. And the news isn't always the news. And yeah, it's interesting. Or that it's this sort of whole complex, right? Like when you see, not to make this political, but I think it's insightful. I think it's the president of Viacom. He's saying, you know, Donald Trump might be bad for America, but he's good for CBS or he's good for Viacom. It's like, oh, these people who we might have similar political leanings, we have very different because of their business we

have very different interests and so the book was sort of to show how those interests operate because I saw it in American Apparel I saw the same people that would wear your clothes would write these you know outrageous articles about how offended and mad they were but then they wanted like free samples you know what I mean? Like sort of seeing how that system worked or, you know, watching, okay, yeah, here's how you're deliberately creating a controversy, but here's how the media creates one itself

when there isn't one there, you know? Right. Yeah, I mean, I thought it was really eye-opening when, I mean, we were at the same publisher at the time, actually. And I think actually probably the same time yeah same time right and yeah so it was really you know i i read it quickly because i was like oh i got a new book what can i learn from sure but it opened my eyes because i think

i came up in a generation where you just kind of assume that you know like what you see in print or on screen is kind of like you know there, there was a certain gravitas, you know, with the people and with, and it was just kind of, it was really eyeopening because it was one of the first moments where I'm like, oh wow, like there's a whole world of things that are being negotiated and happening behind the scenes that I was kind of hip to, but nowhere near on the level that, that sort of, I discovered. That's totally the idea of the book. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so from there, you know, it seems like that is, that's your entree to then say, huh, like maybe like this next act is really all about writing. Yes. So it, I've wanted to be a writer and the thinking was, what do I have? I think this is a mistake that people make. They, they go, what's the book that I want to write, right? And they're making it all about them. I was thinking, what is the book that I could write? You know what I mean? Like, what is my best, you know, it's like, what's the suit you wear to the job interview? Do you know what I mean? Like, what is the thing that I have that is going to get me in the door? And it was that book, right? But it was also writing, writing that book

was in some ways closing a certain chapter, because by writing about all the things I did, I, you know, can't do them as much anymore. So that was the idea was sort of the transition point. And, and I had the next book lined up almost immediately in terms of a proposal, like, I think, maybe two, two or three weeks. And these memories are all, who knows what we tell ourselves. But I do remember selling What Became the Obstacle is the Way almost immediately after Trust Me, I'm Lying came out, thinking not only did I want to be a writer, but I did not want to get on a treadmill where I have to write lots of marketing books. You know, I think having some vision for where you want to end up

lets you make some strategic decisions. Yeah. But it's really interesting from the outside looking in, you go from being in business to writing a book about marketing straight down the quote business lane. And the next book after that is about stoic philosophy. And it's like, so the whole idea, especially like in any form of media, especially in publishing, you know, like generally publishers want you to quote, stay in your lane. It's like, this is where your platform is. This is what you're known for. How do you navigate that? Well, they weren't super excited about the pitch. You know what I mean? They weren't like, oh, that's amazing. I certainly had some credibility. I've written a lot about it online. So I think that's the other thing is you do have to lead a little

bit, right? You can't just decide tomorrow that you're reinventing everything, at least if you want to get other people to buy into it. But I took a lot less money, like a lot less because I knew that one, because I had my business and, you know, I'd done well with the first book, I was able to make that, you know, as me able to make the math work. But I was thinking, well, I have my foot in the door, but now I want to go into this other room. So I kind of have to get my foot in a different door. And so it was, it was definitely a transition, but it was a conscious one. You know, I think it wasn't like, oh, well, now I'll do this. You know, like I'm not just spinning around.

It was very deliberate. Yeah. But I mean, what you were just saying is you were like, okay, so where's the intersection between what I want to write about and what people want to hear about? Yeah. How do you, I mean, so was it the fact that you were writing about this elsewhere online and stuff like that beforehand? That was like, was that sort of like a market test of, do people actually want to hear about this? I don't think it was a market test because that, like, I don't think anyone, any market testing would show like, hey, an obscure school of ancient philosophy is like really where the audience is. I think it was more like, this is what I really, this is what I really cared about and what I wanted to write

about. Like, this is what I was personally fascinated with. It's what I use in my own life in the way that someone who's really into Zen Buddhism, but is also a professional athlete, might transition, you know, to writing about that at some point or something. But so this is what I'm using in my own life and I want to write about it. But then where I think the market testing comes in is, and I did this with the first book too, it's not how would I write this for myself, but what is the way that I can position or I talk about this in perennial a little bit, what is the best way to get this to people, not the way that's most personally satisfying to me. So with stoicism, it was like, okay, I'm interested in Stoicism,

but most people are not. And they're not only not interested in Stoicism, they're not interested in philosophy. So could I write a book that utilizes the philosophy, but unless you're a discerning reader, the philosophy almost never explicitly comes up. Like I think the word stoicism comes up maybe like three times in that whole book. So the thinking was people have problems, they have obstacles that they're trying to overcome. That's a niche unto itself. And then stoicism, part of stoicism is about how to deal with that. And people like stories that they can remember that teach them lessons. That is three overlapping Venn diagrams that created that book. Yeah, that makes sense, actually.

I guess that's just different than like, here's my book. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. I mean, the thought of, you know, it's interesting. I've sat down with so many writers or painters and artists and creators, and it's so interesting to hear just profoundly different philosophies and people who are, many of them, you know, like equally successful in their different ways. And some folks would be like, you got to think about who you're writing for or creating for or serving or designing for. And others are like, you cannot think about this person or else like what comes out is going to be in some way diluted and a it won't it

won't land commercially and also you're never going to feel satisfied that you're actually expressing what you need to express i would imagine the truth is probably in the middle somewhere in the sense of like for instance i hate when people go like oh i chose this because like it's a great seo niche there's a i you know i'm not saying what you it's not great SEO niche. There's, I, you know, I'm not saying what you, it's not like I picked stoicism for at random from a list of things that were doing well that I thought I could monetize with the app. So first off, it is something that I care about that I want to write about, but there's lots of things that I care about and that I want to write about, but you only get to write so many books in your life.

Yeah. So how do you do it in a way that- Yes. Which is the best, you know what I mean? Yeah. There's, there, which is the best thing? Assuming that like, it's like, let's treat this like it's your last book or your only book.

You know, what's your, what, how are you going to make this work both for the opportunity costs and I think the last thing you want to do as a writer is spend two years of your life or something working on a book that ultimately has an audience of one. Yeah. I mean, as much as, and I agree with that,

you know, as much as it's about authentic expression, I have never met a creator who doesn't want to be read or seen or heard. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required,

charge time and actual results will vary. You know, it's, and I don't know if I would believe somebody who told me that they didn't care about that. I think Klosterman talks about this in his new book, which is really good, What If We're Wrong? And he's saying, if you didn't care, you would have just thought about it. You wouldn't have written it out. That's interesting, right? Right.

Or you wouldn't have made it. It could have just existed in your head as like a product of your imagination. So I think, and I don't think they're all mutually exclusive or even in conflict with each other. I think we're very often taught that they're supposed to be. So we don't do the work that you're talking about doing to say, okay, well, maybe they're not. And if we start with the assumption that there is a place somewhere out there that I might not see yet where they actually are in harmony, and then the work is how do I find that place? Totally.

Yeah. So it's like let's take the obstacles away. What I'm thinking is, okay, so people have this aversion to philosophy. Why? Because they think it's lecturing, because they think it's impractical, because they think it's, you know, theoretical. Well, that's not why I'm interested in stoicism. I believe that it's very practical, that it solves problems, that it's, and historically, it was something that people

who did things used. So I'm going to, instead of projecting onto the audience what I want them to be, I'm going to see them as they are, and I'm going to empathize with where they are, because I've been there myself. And I'm going to try, it's like, i'm going to empathize with where they are because i've been there myself And i'm going to try it's like I got lucky for it It's like I found stoicism because someone said i'd be interested in it And the first book that I bought off amazon happened to be a good translation That happened to catch me at the right time in my life And I happened to read it instead of watching television or whatever and it changed my life

How can I take some of the randomness out of that process? Like, so, so I found that to be very inspiring and I don't want to say noble, but I found that there was a great deal of purpose in what I was doing. I didn't, it wasn't mercenary. You know, I wasn't like, how can I do this to make the most money? If anything, I would have made very different choices if, if what I was trying to do was, you know, if, what I was trying to do was, you know, if you're trying to write a self-help book and you want to make a lot of money, you just you do some version of the law of attraction or you know what I mean? Like you don't you don't do this. So I don't know. I think people I think there's also a kind of creator who doesn't want

to admit that this is how they think, you know, they want it to sound very pure and authentic. And, you know, like it's coming from the muses as if they're not like when they're editing. What are they? I would ask them if you're sitting down editing your page, what are you doing? You're making it more readable. You're making it more accessible. Everyone is thinking this way inherently as a creative. No one is really sticking their middle finger up

at the audience. They're just pretending to after. It's like artists who act, artists who make these sort of rebellious, you know, rejections of, you know, capitalist society and then turn around and sell their paintings to rich people. You know what I mean? Like there's always that dance in art, whatever it is. Yeah, no, I think that's true. And my sense is you've probably done more research into this than me, but from just the basic stuff that I've done, it almost feels like that divide is a more recent phenomenon because you really go back in history. Yeah. Some of the greatest painters who've ever lived were actually really well paid and taken

care of by patrons. And they did, you know, like, you know, there was who was who's the movie director who's like, you know, like one for the studio, one for me. Yeah, one for me, totally, you know, and they did it because they wanted to be okay and comfortable. Yeah, I mean, yeah, do you think that it was easy to get the Medici's to like under to be your patron? Or is there an incredible amount of politics involved in that, right? And flattery and shaping of the art. You know, Machiavelli writes the prints for the family that he conspired against to try to overthrow.

You know, they're his patron. And so, yeah, I think that's always been there. And look, books used to be sold by subscription. They would go out and pre-sell the books. Is that true? Yeah, like Grant's Memoirs were sold by subscription. Before the bookstores, the first bookstore is relatively recent. You know what I mean?

There didn't used to be a Barnes & Noble in the frontier, right? These people were sold books by door-to-door salesmen, and then they would arrive after they were published. So it's always been a mix of art to actually find that sweet spot where if we start with the assumption that that's not supposed to be there, we're probably going to do all sorts of things that we don't even realize that we're doing to not find it. Yes. And you also don't want to put it all on luck, right? It's like, if you, you know, there's this, that image of the writer or the artist going off in their cave or their studio or bunker or wherever they make their thing and then just coming out and here it is, you know, that's also a recipe for being rejected or for making something that doesn't resonate with an audience. And I'm not saying that everything has to totally be about the audience, but the last thing you would want is to be making something that is so unnecessarily

antagonistic to the market that it doesn't get its chance. You have to know which boundaries to push and which ones not to push. Yeah. Let's talk about luck because that's something that you actually, you dive into in an interesting way in your newest book. That's one of those topics in business and in life too where there are two warring factions. There are those who say it has nothing to do with luck. Luck is – it's all about preparation and planning. And then there are other people who say no. It's all luck.

You work really, really, really, really hard. And, you know, there's just, it was that one break that changed everything. I like, there's a line I have in Perennial from Nassim Taleb where he's saying, if you work hard, you'll become a professorship or you can publish a book or whatever, but you need hard work and luck to win a Nobel Prize or to get a private jet. And you need both. You need hard work and luck.

So to me, that cuts the Gordian knot pretty quickly. It's like, oh, I have to work really, really hard. And if I work really, really hard, eventually I'll get some lucky break. It might be the biggest lucky break in the world, then I'm JK Rowling, or it might be a decent stroke of luck and I, you know, I have a nice house in the suburbs, you know. And the point is, you didn't get into the art. I guess what I'm saying is, there's much better ways to make money and get rich than to be in the arts, right? Or to pursue some creative profession. But that is not to say that you can't be incredibly successful in those things. And luck is, I think, the degree to which

you will be successful. If you work hard, you pay your dues, you put in your hours, you can make a career out of this. I feel no doubt when I say that sentence, you know, whether, you know, you're someone you're going to be someone like Jon Hamm, who doesn't get his first sort of big role until, you know, much later in his career, or, you know, you're Bret Easton Ellis, and your first novel is published while you're still in college. That's where the luck comes in, I think. Yeah. And I think also, you know, sort of building on that is the idea that, you know, so there's, there's like a really interesting intersection between luck and craft in my mind. Okay. In that both as a general rule, it's a volume game.

Okay. Sure. You know, you look at the greatest artists in the world are the ones who are most acclaimed as being masters, you know, and people will generally point out, okay, so like these 15 works are stunning. You know, but there was 40 years and the first 15 of them were filled with like a maniacal assault of dreck. And a very, very, very high volume. I mean, there's great research that shows, you know, like that best of the best, it comes from just repetition and repetition, repetition, repetition. And I think there's an argument to be made that,

you know, like in the same way, a big part of luck is based on having enough iterations, like being able to gain enough times. You give yourself. Yeah. Well, I think there's a couple things there. One, I would say it's incredibly difficult and unlikely to be a Harper Lee or a Daniel Day-Lewis or whatever.

You know, like there is certainly a lot of value in concentrating. You know, Adele's only done three albums, and they've come out very far apart. That's hard. And not all the circumstances don't line up for all of us to be able to do that, you know. And so I think to count on that as naive or risky, I think it's better to put more stuff out there. And then also what I find, and this is, I think, the most frustrating piece of advice I got as a writer, but it's totally turned out to be true. And I give it to people now. It's like people go, okay, you know, my book is selling. It's done pretty well. I've done all the work. What other marketing things can I do?

And the answer is go write another book. And, you know, that seems crazy that the way you market this thing that's doing well is to do a totally different thing. But in fact, it's giving you a potential new audience to bring to both. Like, I think, you know, the fans that I got on Trust Me, I'm Lying, some of them read The Obstacles Away, but many more people read The Obstacles Away and then read Trust Me, I'm Lying because my second book sold much better than my first book. And so I would have had no way of predicting that, you know? So the more you put out there, the more chances you have to get lucky. And just the process of building up a marketing machine and doing publicity and promotion and reaching out to new people inherently exposes your work to new people. Yeah.

I mean, part of the challenge with that, I think, for so many people, there's a certain amount of faith. Sure. You know? Or delusion, whatever you want to call it. Right, exactly. You know, so you're going to keep doing this? I remember hearing one author, I don't know who it was, I remember her- Or delusion, whatever you want to call it. Right, exactly. You know, it's like, are you going to keep doing this? I remember hearing one author, I don't know who it was, I heard her interview. She's like one of the top selling female novelists in the world.

You know, she had a career for five decades or something like that. She said her first novel, out of the gate sold really well, bought for a nice amount of money. Her next five, nothing. Right. Nothing. Totally. Yeah, she kept writing.

Yeah. And then like the sixth or the seventh, all of a sudden, like that hit again. And then like you were just saying the five before it, all boom, like they all started to take off again. But so few of us have a level of faith, conviction, whatever it may be, that will keep us in the game until that sixth or seventh thing. Because we're like, oh, the second one didn't hit. Well, okay, so maybe that's just a fluke. But the third one will come back. So I'll do the third one. But then the third one doesn't hit. Oh, maybe the first one was the fluke and I really don't have it.

Well, I think the joke to like, why should I write a book? The joke answer is because you can't not write a book, right? So part of what you need is that compulsion. So maybe it's not that she's like, I'm doing an experiment. Does the world say that I should be writing books? Or is it more that she's like, I have to get this book out of me. It hurts, you know? And so that ache I do think is important too. You know, I don't know how many failures I could take as a person, as a writer, you know, as a writer of

books in a row, but I do know that like, I already have the next, you know, I have this one, the next one, and the one after that already sort of stirring around and it would be uncomfortable if I didn't get them out. There's a Warren Beatty line where he says, making movies is a lot like throwing up. You don't want to, but there becomes a point where you go, I'd feel a lot better if I threw up, you know? And so that's part of it, right? It's not like having books is a lot of fun. Writing isn't necessarily the most fun. So you got to have that compulsion to the irrational part to get over the other thing. Because there's the, you know, there's that other line, I think it's from

Keynes, where he's saying, the market can remain irrational longer than you can remain solvent. And so it's like, yeah, how many books, you still have to live. So that's the other element. It is. I say, Bob McKee said, it's like you've got a monster so that's that's the other element it is i say bob mckee said it's like you've got a monster in your head and the only thing worse than getting it out is not getting it out yeah but like the pain there's pain either way right have you seen the the documentary anvil about the metal band so they're like this metal band that they've been around for like they were when all the big metal bands like guns and roses metallica were blowing up anvil was one it was one of the up and coming bands so like 30 40 years later most of these bands are successful and the ones that

weren't successful aren't still bands but they're like still going they're like still they're still it's the same guys and they're still performing for like 10 people at a show. And so there is a level. You watch it, and you admire it, and you're also like, that's insane. There's a level of insanity to it that has to get you past. You know, I remember when I worked at a talent agency in Hollywood when I was starting, and my boss was saying the paradox of actors and actresses is you have to go from audition to audition and people tell you nobody wants you. And then you have to tell yourself, but the world needs me. Do you know what I mean?

Like you're being rejected, but you have to believe that everyone wants you. And there is that element, I think, in all creative people. Yeah. And that's the delusion that you're talking about. It's there in every entrepreneur that I know that's done something big and probably every creative professional or artist. But that's the danger also, right? It is. It's totally a double-edged sword. Again, politically, it's like Trump as the entrepreneur has to have that, but maybe he overreaches, right?

Or, you know, the danger is, so you have that craziness inside you that makes you push past all the reservations, all the haters, all the people who tell you it's impossible, but that's also a recipe for overreaching. What if they're right about a specific project or, you know, that's the crazy part. Yeah. And what, right. What if the end, they were right and you really are just delusional. About this specific, you know, you're not a crazy person, but hey, maybe, and look, American Apparel is a cautionary tale in that regard.

You don't do it the way you're supposed to do it ever at all. You get so far and then you realize, oh, these rules are right on average. And so we all regress towards the mean if we're not careful. And I think that's the double-edged sword of entrepreneurs is, yeah, everyone's telling you don't do it and you bet your life savings and it works out. Now, you know, everyone's telling you don't switch industries, don't do this, don't do that. And you go, oh, I've heard this story before. And you really do jump off a cliff. That's the paradox. Yeah. And the challenge is there's no litmus test.

No. That tells you which one of those moments you're right and which one you really like, you know, heed the advice. Well, there's a good piece of writing advice from Neil Gaiman that I think is good in life as well. He says, when people tell you something's wrong, they're almost always right with your writing. But when they tell you exactly how to fix it, they're almost always wrong. That's interesting.

And so it's like when people are expressing reservations, you should listen and be aware of what the concern is. And then you've got to make judgments about, oh, I get, you know, it's like when I dropped out of college, my parents were, you know, my parents hated it. And they, we had a very big falling out. And with some distance, I realized it's like, oh, their job as my parents was to keep me safe. And my job as the person who has to live the life is to be happy, you know, with my own decisions and to do what I think is right. And so in some ways we're both right. You know, like

they are right. I shouldn't do this. It's very dangerous, but I'm right in that I know it's the right thing for me personally. And I think you got to know that you got to know with your own work and with your own career whatever when to listen to the critics and when not to and i think that may be where craft really starts to enter the picture too it's like the famous ira glass we're just like quote dropping your left and right but you know what ira glass said was so true, which is like there comes a time where you develop taste. Yes. Taste comes first. Right.

But you still don't have the capability to actually deliver an outcome at that same level of taste. And that becomes a really frustrating and brutal window. And when your ability to actually deliver on the level of the taste that you've developed sort of like meets it, that's sort of when – That's magical. Yeah. No, totally. And look, I think one of the tortures of creative work is that you always have a little bit of that. Like it's always better in your – like what you make, for me, I never like – I have never made something and my taste was like, that's the best I've ever seen.

You know what I mean? Your taste is always out there in front a little bit of what you're capable of. And that also pushes you to get better. Yeah. I mean, that's the aspirational part of it, I think. You're always, you're like, I see where I want to go. And there's something in me that makes me believe I can get there. So I'm going to keep working towards it yes yes you're trying to the writing as a job is

perpetually trying to make what's in your head show up on the page you never quite get there yeah mayday mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you were gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him.

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15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Like you've got books, you are now quote an author and you got multiple books out. You're also, and this is probably something that some people don't know, is that you also, you write books for other people. Like you've ghostwritten some huge books for other people, which of course we're like, we're not going to name names, but I'm curious as a writer, what that's like for you? Well, I like the puzzle. What that's like for you? have this idea for a book, I like solving that equation, right? Like what is the best version of that book? What's the best place to publish it? What's the best way to write it? You know,

so I like ghostwriting and or sometimes I just do proposals or sometimes we sort of act as producers on books. I do that because I love the puzzle of taking, you know, someone's platform, someone's credentials, someone's expertise, someone's vision, and how do you line all those up to make the best, most successful project? That is really fun for me. I would say the frustrating part, it's definitely not without its frustrations. You know, when you're working with someone who's paying you to do an uncomfortable thing for them, there is a little bit of like sort of pain avoidance that you have to, you know, it's like, look, I'm happy to write the words for you. I'm good at that.

That comes easy for me. But that means in some ways that you have to work harder to go deeper inside yourself to find out what you want to say. So that is one of the frustrating parts of ghostwriting. People think you can just pay someone and then have a book. And I guess that's true, but it won't be very good. So that's the struggle is can you get them to do their side of things? Yeah, because I think as a writer, you're probably, at some point, you have to get comfortable with the idea of deepening levels of vulnerability.

Yeah. But as somebody who may want a book in the world for a particular purpose, you may not, you're not there probably. And part of your job probably is to like, it's to get somebody here. Also, I think think early on I realized it's like, okay, there are certain people or certain businesses that can sort of assembly line you out a mediocre book that you can put your name on the front of and maybe it gets you a few clients or whatever. I don't want to do that. I want to do the work that doesn't scale, which is take someone who maybe has a great story or a great idea or a great potential and just needs help getting it to where it needs to go. So that business doesn't scale, but it is considerably upmarket enough that there's, that is a business. Yeah. And it's like, that's what, that's the part you're interested in. Yes. Right. Yeah. The topic of your latest book, Perennial Seller, is fascinating because that's what everyone wants.

Whether it's, and we've been talking about books, but what's interesting is, you know, you're talking about everything. You're talking about in the world of, I want to create, you know, like a company, a body of work, whatever it may be. How do you create that thing that isn't, you know, popular for, you know, five minutes, right? A hot minute in today's world, but actually sustains for years, maybe decades, maybe generations. What got you onto that? Well, I think it's weird. I think we all want that, but we also look at things that aren't that and hold them up

as examples. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like, for instance, like pick your up as examples. Do you know what I mean? Like, like it's like, uh, for instance, like pick your 10 favorite books or, you know, your 10 biggest favorite movies.

I would, I would actually venture to guess that a huge chunk of them were not successful and they came out right. Like, like didn't, they weren't blockbusters. Who knows? Like,

was the great Gatsby a bestseller when it came out? I don't remember, you know, like, but then we, we go like, Oh, was The Great Gatsby a bestseller when it came out? I don't remember, you know, like, but then we we go like, oh, was it within in the short term, though, we look at those things as if they're predictors of success, or lasting impact. You know what I mean? So I think with the book, I was just thinking, I was thinking, like, look, you can get lots of advice on how to like hack this or get attention for that. But really what I admire is things that last. I love that you could go to Katz Delicatessen in New York City and it's the same restaurant that's been there for over a hundred years. I'd rather own Katz than whatever the trendiest

restaurant in New York is right now. Because in 50 years, Katz will still probably be here and that trendy restaurant likely will not. You know, one's a much safer bet than the other. So that's what I aspire to do in my own work, things that send the test of time. And then I'm just tired of people chasing these short-term metrics. It doesn't matter how many Twitter followers you have. It matters who your Twitter followers are. Or it doesn't matter how many copies you sold in one year.

It matters how many years are you still selling copies. Yeah, which is not the current mindset regardless of the business that you're in. Definitely. This is one of the things that you talk about and that has been a part of, I think, the public conversation a lot more, which is sort of like the focus on short-termism versus long-term. Like, we all want to maximize for the short-term. And I wonder how much of that is being driven by the sort of technology and social cycles these days. I think it is. Laura wrote this amazing piece a couple of years ago where she was criticizing founders who talk about how much money they've raised. And she's like,

you should be talking about how much money your business makes. You know what I mean? Like in some ways, like it is impressive to raise a lot of money and it can bode well for a business, but the whole purpose of the business is that it is profit generating and sustainable. And so why are we celebrating this thing that is inherently unsustainable? That's what I mean, we're sort of holding up the wrong metrics, like, instead of looking at the impact, you know, the end of the day, all things that are successful are successful because of word of mouth, you know, because somebody said it was good, and should read it or watch it or they saw it on your wall or that you were, they liked the shoes that you were wearing, you know, that's why things sell.

And so if you're not making something great that is designed to capitalize on word of mouth, you're making something that is inherently fragile and ephemeral. And I think that's so, you know, what's interesting when you think about word of mouth, we pretty much always immediately think about, okay, well, that means online. Yes. I don't know if this data still holds true, but when Jonah Berger wrote Contagious, one of the most eye-opening things that he shared with me was that at that moment, at least when he did the research, something like 90% of word of mouth actually happened offline. Oh.

It was still through face-to-face transmission conversation, which really kind of blew my mind. Well, that sounds totally right. It certainly drives with my experience. And I think his book is amazing, which, the way, also word of mouth here. Like he wrote something or said something to you that was good enough for you to share it. That's the definition of word of mouth. But I think you've got to, you've got to think, how is this going? Like people will go like, oh, you know, I have a hundred thousand dollar advertising budget or like, like I love these ads that you've done. Like, what can we do? And then I always go like, what was the last thing you bought because of advertising? And the answer is like, I can't

remember. Or they, they can remember. I go, but did you discover it from advertising? They're like, no, I'd already heard of it. So it's for most of us, since we're not multinational conglomerates, you know, that are just popularizing things that have already proven themselves. What we're actually doing is not marketing so much as just driving discovery and advertising is advertising and non word of mouth channels are very inefficient ways to drive discovery. Like with a book, you're just trying to get people to read it. And it's very hard for you to get people to read something if they don't know anything about it and have to pay upfront to find out about it. So it's like, seriously, the best marketing I've

ever done for any of my books has either been discounting the price for short periods of time or giving large amounts of copies away because then people read it and then they like it enough that they tell other people about it. Yeah. Do you feel like you're focused on trying to get people to focus on word of mouth? I feel like you have an ulterior motive here.

Okay. I feel like your ulterior motive is, and okay, let's get people to focus on word of mouth. A, because it works. Yeah. I completely agree with you. There's nothing that will spread the word that will make something to focus on word of mouth, A, because it works. I completely agree with you. There's nothing that will spread the word that will make something succeed more than word of mouth. But on a deeper level, the only way you get sustained word of mouth over time that grows and expands is to create something that is so good, so evocative, so impactful that people can't shut up about it.

Yes. And so it's like, I almost think that like, you know, yes, you've written a book which sort of like has a lot of how-to and a lot of really interesting stories and a lot of really interesting case studies. But I feel like there's this bigger call to action that is just like, make better stuff. Oh, totally. The reason most stuff doesn't last is that it can't stand the test of time. Like it does. It literally collapses or falls apart, you know, because trends change. You know that, and it's based on something that's based on something else, it's based on something else.

You're so far away from like the truth of the need that it doesn't work. And I mean, it is funny you said ulterior motive. Yes, as generally as a person, my ulterior motive is I would like there to be less crap in the world and more better stuff. But it is like, you know, I have a marketing company. So ostensibly people pay me to do this, the post product stuff for them. So it's like, in some ways it's, it's the opposite of my ulterior motive, but I've just found so many people come to me and they want to hire, they want to do marketing. And it's like, it's too late. That's all, that's the saddest thing for me. It's like, it's like, it's too late. That's the saddest thing for me.

It's like- It's like it's got to be baked into, it's like the heartbeat of the idea, the expression is your biggest source. Yeah. Like the idea is not right or maybe the idea is right, but then like they say that it's this, but then everything built around it, it's packaging, it's name and whatever is not that. And so it's like, you've just made whoever is marketing this for you, you've made their job very difficult, if not impossible. Yeah.

It's so interesting. I mean, I've been reflecting on this sort of like you, I've got like three other books in my head already that I'm like, I just want to start writing. Yeah. But the bar for me, I think moving forward, and this is shifting is it's like, I don't want to write something unless I feel like every story, like every part of this is going to move someone to tears, move someone to laughter or move, move them to some sort of profound awakening. And in turn, I feel like if I can do that, people, they won't not be able to share it.

I mean, it's almost like, and that becomes such a huge catalyst for that sustained sharing and growth and word of mouth over time. But my concern is that my craft is not yet at on a level where I can create something, whether it's a company or a book or body of work that moves people on that level. In part because I'd like it to be successful. I'd like to be able to just like do that for my living. But also because that's part of where we satisfy our existential angst. It's part of what tells us that we're doing something that matters. Yeah. I mean, look, perfectionism can be a form of paralysis. And so I think you've got to tell

yourself, I'm going to do the absolute best that I'm capable of in this window versus like, you know, because who knows? Like, yes, you keep writing online or, you know, practicing your craft in private. In 20 years, you're undoubtedly going or, you know, practicing your craft in private. In 20 years, you're undoubtedly going to be a better writer and you could maybe serve this book better if you waited. But what if you got hit by a bus 15 years from now and then that doesn't happen? And then, you know, I was reading recently about this short biography of Charles Darwin and he comes up with the theory of natural selection almost immediately after The Voyage, but he doesn't publish it for like decades. And he kept telling himself like, oh, I need to study this, or oh, I need to do this, and oh, I need to do that.

And it's only when there's like the threat of someone else beating him to it that he rushes it through in like 12 months or something. And, you know, he got lucky. He could have been scooped. We might never, you know, if he'd published the theory and then it had all that extra time while he was alive to interact with the public, might he been able to refine it and improve it in a way publicly that's different than what he was doing, you know, studying barnacles and worms and stuff like that. So I don't know. I think the way I see my own career

is that I'm so proud of all the stuff that I've written, but I feel like the craft that I'm putting in and the time that I'm doing, all of it is leading up towards, hopefully, something in the far off future that I don't know is there, but everything will, like, have you read The Big Short by Malcolm Lewis? No, it's not the future that I don't know is there, but everything will. Have you read The Big Short by Malcolm Lewis?

No, it's not the movie. I didn't. Okay. So the movie's amazing because the book is amazing. Michael Lewis. Okay, I said Malcolm. But he couldn't have known when he was writing all his other books that the world economy would crash in 2008. Right. would crash in 2008. And then it would be this complicated financial crisis caused by a specific

kind of Wall Street attitude and greed that he was the perfect person to talk about. And so like, that's where that's luck, right? Like, he's an amazing writer who's already very successful. He'd already written Moneyball and The Blind Side and all these other things. And then 2008 happens and it happens to be for him very good thing because it leads to this book. But I think that's the kind of position that I want to put myself in to get lucky for. And so I would never want to not be working. Yeah. Because you don't know what you're cutting yourself off from after whatever this project is that you don't feel like you can do.

No, it makes a lot of sense. So let's come full circle here. Okay. Name of this is Good Life Project. All right. So if I offer that phrase out to you, to live a good life. Yeah. What comes up?

Something I've thought about. I don't know if you get this question from people where they'll go like, what's next? And maybe Lewis Howes told told me that he said like right now like you know he said something some his answer was something about right now is is and i've been thinking about that it's like i like my my life right now is very good and i want that to be my life i don't want to live as though i'm working to some conditional future where then like I'm telling you I'm hoping that fate and my skills align at some point to some magical project but I'm not unhappy now until that happens so you know I feel like I live in a place like in a place that makes me

happy I feel like my lifestyle like what kind of place that I live, like I live on a farm, that's sort of unique and makes me happy. I feel like for the most part, my day is filled with things that I want to do, not things that I have to do. And then I feel like I'm surrounded by people who I like being surrounded by and make me better. So that's my definition of the good life. And I don't know, I just, I don't think the good life can be something you're striving towards. Or if you are, it's somewhat sad. You know, I think you ideally want to have what version you can have of it now. Because who knows how long this stuff is.

Sounds morbid. But like, if I died tomorrow, I would feel okay. Because I haven't, I don't think I've held, I guess I haven't held anything back is all I'm saying. Thank you. Thanks for having me, man. Thanks so much for listening to today's episode. If the stories and ideas in any way moved you, I would so appreciate if you would take just a few extra seconds for two quick things. One, if it's touched you in some way, if there's some idea or moment in the story or in the conversation that you really feel like you would share with

somebody else, that it would make a difference in somebody else's life, take a moment and whatever app you're using, just share this episode with somebody who you think it'll make a difference for. Email it if that's the easiest thing, whatever is easiest for you. And then of course, if you're compelled, subscribe so that you can stay a part of this continuing experience. My greatest hope with this podcast is not just to produce moments and share stories and ideas that impact one person listening, but to let it create a conversation, to let it serve as a catalyst for the elevation of all of us together collectively, because that's how we rise. When stories and ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change happens. And I would love to invite you to participate on that level. Thank you so much as always for your intention,

for your attention, for your heart. And I wish you only the best. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

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