Good Life Project - Samantha Paige: Radical Decisions and Reclaiming Identity.

Episode Date: January 22, 2018

What would you do to live your truth?Samantha Paige is an artist, parent, philanthropist, and the founder of the Last Cut Project – but you most likely know her from Equinox’s “Commit to Something” campaign.She’s a thyroid cancer survivor and BRCA1 previvor, but she’s a symbol of strength for so much more than that.Samantha was subjected to a series of uncomfortable decisions throughout her life, but after a double mastectomy and an implant surgery that continued to make her sick for months, she found herself faced with surprisingly, her most life-changing decision of all: to remove the silicone implants.Directly after her surgery, Samantha’s life took a turn, she looked around and realized that she didn’t even recognize her surroundings. As soon as Samantha made that initial decision to remove her implants, she found herself. She found truth and freedom, and was finally able to live a life that feels like hers, but with that came an internal battle to accept her new body.Over the years, this struggle has forced her to take a long, hard look at disease and prejudice in society. She asked herself why she felt self-conscious without her breasts, and ultimately, set out on a mission to change this status quo by formulating different conversation around these topics. This inflection point led her to launch the Last Cut photo project, social movement, and podcast (“Last Cut Conversations”) which has helped encourage others to seek freedom by honoring similar decisions, their individuality, and a life that feels uniquely right to them. Now, she creates community around these conversations and allows others a place to share without shame.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I hadn't processed the trauma. I didn't know how to process the trauma, and it would take many years to figure that out. But it was creeping out in my body in other ways because in my experiences, the truth lives in our bodies, and we can try and run away from that when we don't process it. But at some point, it comes back to bite you. So when this week's guest, Samantha Page, walked into a gynecologist's office when she was 21 years old,

she did not expect to walk out having a potential diagnosis of thyroid cancer. But that, in fact, ended up being her reality. She went through successful treatment, but the trauma remained embedded in both her physical body and her psyche for many years. She reflected on her own diagnosis and then her mother's diagnosis of breast cancer when Samantha was very young and decided that she would eventually get tested for what's become known as the BRCA gene. She tested positive and as a new mom, made a decision to have a double mastectomy and then reconstructive surgery.

A couple of years down the road from there, she also then made the decision to reverse the reconstructive surgery and have implants removed. She documented this entire process in something called Last Cut Project, where she and her friend Lisa created this powerful visual photo documentary and shared it with the world. You can actually find that.

We'll link to the Instagram account and launched a podcast series to share similar conversations about people processing their own identity and redefining it and stepping into a place of power and agency and defying very often cultural norms. That podcast, by the way, is called Final Cut Conversations. She kind of exploded in a much bigger way into the public consciousness when Equinox featured her in a massive international ad campaign and showed a picture of her as redefining what we see as beauty and power and strength and identity. And that led her to literally walk out her door and see massive billboards with her on it. And it led to a bigger public conversation about all of these ideas. So I wanted to sit down with Samantha and explore her journey, her story, the shifts that have been made along the way, and also how

that relates to her being a mom to a daughter and having the conversations with her. Really excited, as always, to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

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Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Growing up in LA, what kind of kid are you? Oh, my.

Well, I was the kind of kid I was. I don't know if it had to do so much with my physical environment as much as it did with I was just a perfectionist. And so I— How did that manifest? I think it manifested, my mom had breast cancer when I was, I think, about four. My parents got divorced. I lost my grandfather. That all happened within the span of a year.

And I think my reaction was just to try and be perfect and hold it all together. And it wasn't asked of me at four or five, but I think that was my reaction to what was happening in my world. So it's funny. Growing up in L.A., I feel as if I academically was a straight-A student. I was this goody-two-shoes on paper, what my parents thought. And later my mom said to me, she's like, well, you got good grades. You did your thing. And whatever else you did, you kept everything else together. And so I had a lot of fun, had an engaged life in the city as well, but definitely was also very academic and kind of

nerdy too. So I sort of had these two sides. Do you think the perfection thing was more of like control after feeling like there was so much loss that you didn't have control over? Yeah, I think for sure. Yeah. I feel like that's it for a lot of people. Because it's interesting. I feel like there's this, these days it's coming out a lot more. There's sort of like this conversation around perfectionism and how it can be massively destructive as much as it gives you this sense of, okay, I've got all my stuff dialed in.

I think we'll probably circle back to that in a bigger way. Yeah, no, I think that's a really, that's a huge point. And I think that that became a big part of my journey, actually, because it was, it was holding it together. Did that, because often I've seen that coupled with sort of like heightened anxiety at the same time. Yes. I'm barriers, the head is like, yes, I definitely, I had a lot of anxiety as a kid, for sure. As a kid, it manifested more. I had a lot of stomach aches. I think, I mean, I've seen that with my daughter too. Things, you don't necessarily feel it so much in the head per se, but it's in the body. And so my stomach always hurt. And I think then as I got older, it manifested more in anxiety. And certainly after I had had cancer and then realized that

really nothing, you know, I had cancer at 21. And so my senior year of college, I was diagnosed with cancer. After feeling perfect, it kind of came out of nowhere. And so it was very rattling to this sort of controlled life that I was living to then all of a sudden realize that really nothing's in control. Yeah. All right. So take me there. Okay. So you end up, you're in college.

I was in college, I had actually just returned from studying abroad in Italy, which I had gone with my parents, with my mom and my stepdad when I was, I believe, 12 to Italy and we went to Paris. My stepdad did a lot of work over there and one trip they took us. And I remember being in Italy and hearing everyone, we were stuck in a traffic jam, but everyone just seemed so happy and animated that I said to myself, I have to come back here. I have to learn this language. So my junior year of college, I did that. And so I had just returned from that experience and was really establishing my independence and felt great. It was sort of a high point, I would say, in my life. Went to my gynecologist and my internist for checkups before returning to college for my senior year. And my gynecologist examined my neck, which I didn't remember him ever doing

that before. And he said, you know, I'm feeling something on your thyroid. What made him examine your neck? I'm not really sure. Still to this day, I'm not, you know, 21 years later, I'm not exactly sure, but it was sort of one of those divine interventions that he did. And he ended up then sending me to a specialist for a biopsy. And it turned out I had a malignant tumor, which was just crazy because I felt great. And so within the span of two weeks, my whole life was just sort of turned right upside down. Yeah. What did that mean to you also in that moment because of your history when you were a little kid and what you saw around you and your family? It was obvious. I mean, it was scary and frightening. And I think I went more into

the space of what we were talking about before, which was, I'm going to be strong. It's okay. You know, people told me, oh, well, at least you, you know, this was one of the most insane things that people said. But at least you didn't get one of the cancers that will kill you. And I was like, right, but it's still cancer. My life was still disrupted. So I think I really went into that place of holding it together and strength and optimism, which in the end came back to bite me horribly. But I think having seen what my mom had gone through, having watched my grandfather pass away from cancer, certainly there was an added weight to it and fear.

But I don't know that in that moment I went there to even dismantle it or feel it through. I think it was too scary. And that was sort of what then just kept building on itself for the years thereafter. Also, I mean, you're 20, 21 years old at that point? Not today. I was like, wow, thanks. Back then. Yes, I was 21. I just turned 21. Coming back from junior year in college. Yeah.

It's hard enough to sort of like handle what you're going through from a health standpoint, from your own mindset standpoint. But the social dynamic like around that, like when you're a grown up, when you're in the world, you have like deep, long friends. When you're that age and people really, you know, we're kind of like in just figuring out ourselves also that socially that had to have been like tell me tell me what's going on because nobody knows what to say or what to do and especially at that age like we're not even equipped to deal with regular day-to-day stuff for the most part no and i think that that's such an amazing point that you just made because I don't think at any age people are equipped. And I think we try and stay in the positive because we think that's what's going to make people feel better. But what I really discovered was that as humans, we have this full spectrum of emotions that we have to explore so we can feel whole and so that we can heal and move through things. And that it's really challenging to get that from people

because they're distraught about what you're going through. So they're just trying, you know, people want to make it feel better. And so I felt really alienated. I mean, my best friend from college was amazing and we would talk, but she wanted me to feel okay. I mean, my mom, everybody wanted me to be okay. And so I would go up to my room and I was in my childhood bedroom, which that at age 21, as you want to be in your senior year of college was rattling in of itself.

But I would just go into my room and cry because outside of that space, I just tried to put on a happy face because that's what I thought people wanted from me. So even at that point, you're still thinking about what people want from you. Yeah, it came after that that I really then dismantled the people-pleasing aspect of my makeup and also just realized that we're all different and we all feel different things at different times and that there's nothing wrong with that and there's no shame in that. And I think vulnerability, I later learned, it's not a sign of weakness. It's really a sign of incredible strength. Yeah.

And also just like saying to, I mean, from you out saying to your friends and family, I don't know how to behave right now. And also having the safety and the space for them to be able to say to you rather than, you know, like, let me figure out what I can say to make it better. Like, I love you, but I have no idea how to have this conversation. I don't know what you need. Like, what do you need? What do we, do you need me to just shut up and be here? Do you need me to just shut up and be here? Do you need me? I think we're just terrified of even just asking those questions. We just kind of want to assume.

Yeah. No, yeah, I think we do. We make assumptions. And it's funny, my mom and I have conversed about this one. We recorded an episode for my podcast last year right around Mother's Day and really talked about all of this. And she and I had very distinct memories, very distinct and very different memories of that time related to this issue. And it was really interesting because I remember asking her if she thought I should go to therapy. You know, do you think I should be talking to someone about this?

And she said, you know, you seem great. And so that's where I think I wasn't asking. I wasn't showing and I wasn't asking. And that's what I learned later is that there's incredible strength in doing exactly what you just said. me in that space versus trying to show up how we think we're supposed to be and to sort of tough and, you know, be strong and tough it out. Her memory or a memory that I had then of her was that she had told me that she would go and go for drives and then pull over and cry on the side of the road. And she doesn't remember telling me that part. I mean, it's so, I think that when there's incredible pain that's happening, we do our best, certainly. I know everyone around me was doing their best. And I think that sometimes it takes time to then learn how we wish we would have asked for help in those situations. Yeah. You know.

And meanwhile, everyone's going through their own corners of the room and crying in solitude. Yeah. Right. Which looking back, it's really sad. And I wish, you know, I wish I would have known more of what her experience was because I think having gone through what she went through and then having this happen to, you know, she was in her early 30s when she had cancer. And then I was in my early 20s. I know that that was a heartbreaking experience as a mother. I mean,

I can't imagine in my own experience now as a mother what that would feel like. Yeah, I can't imagine. Have you had that specific conversation with her at this point? We've touched upon it. Yes. We've definitely gone there to places. I mean, now with sort of the next as the next phase of what you know what I've done with the work with Last Cut, she and I have been pushed out conversations that I think she's an incredibly private person too, which I am as well, even though I'm so public about so many parts of my life, that's probably hard to imagine. But we worked through it together over these last two years and our relationship has grown and deepened in a really beautiful way because I've been sharing of myself so much and she's met me in that space. Yeah, which is amazing. So you go through treatment for thyroid cancer, everything comes out okay? Yes.

Just go about your life after that? Are you different in some way? Yeah, crazy, right? Yeah, I had my thyroid removed. I had one round of radioactive iodine therapy and then was able to go back to finish my senior year. They didn't want me to graduate because I had then been away from college or, you know, away from the campus for too long. And I petitioned and was able to then walk with my class, had another round of radiation after graduating. And then at that point I said, okay, my life has completely been dismantled. What can I do that will make me happy? And so I didn't want to just go and get a job, you know, at Merrill Lynch or just a corporate. It's sort of my thinking did shift pretty dramatically about what I thought I wanted or should do. So I got an internship actually in Italy and went back to Italy and was going to be there for three months and figured I just bought myself some time to figure out what's next and just process everything. I was working at a school there, cooking school, and I then ended up

shortly after I arrived, they said, oh, well, you know, you're qualified to do this. Do you want to teach English as a second language to Italian adults. So one thing led to another. I ended up being there for two and a half years. And what happened was I was, again, sort of during the day living this life that I loved. I was in this place that I loved. I had this really sweet boyfriend. I loved my job. I got to travel with my job. I was meeting amazing people. I wasn't sleeping at night, though. And I would just sit in the darkness of what I hadn't processed all night. And so it was the first time I started to get panic attacks.

I started to get migraines. And I still, though, wasn't able to do, again, what you alluded to before of just saying, this is happening, and I don't know where to go with it. And I don't know how to be. I'd be up at night. And I remember there was one particular instance where my boyfriend's family, I think they were going to a mass or something for Easter, and we had had dinner. And it's funny because, I mean, I grew up up Jewish but I loved being in Italy because the the ceremony of how they do religion is just fascinating to me and I grew up Jewish also and like my favorite thing was to go down the block to like our big Italian friends family for like the holidays

like this is awesome it's amazing I think in part it feels so similar yeah just in many ways certainly the celebration and the familial aspect. But so that night, though, I had this knot in my chest and I couldn't breathe. And I said, I'm just going to stay. And I laid in bed and I realized, I think, in that moment that I wasn't okay and that I hadn't processed the trauma. I didn't know how to process the trauma and it would take many years to figure that out. But it was creeping out in my body in other ways because in my experiences, the truth lives in our bodies. And we can try and run away from that when we don't process it. But at some point, it comes back to bite you.

Yeah. And it's funny. I think I completely agree with that. I think sort of like modern therapy for trauma is really starting to address that now. Like Bessel van der Kolk, who's doing this incredible work on post-traumatic. Everyone's changing the last two letters in that. But it's kind of saying like you can't actually unwind this unless you unwind it within the physical body as well. Exactly.

And that's, you know, it took probably another 10 years for me to really get there. And later, I mean, and there was a lot more that happened in my 20s with my body, but, you know, went and had the genetic testing for the BRCA gene and tested positive for that. So for those who don't know what that is, share more. So the BRCA gene, and there are two different mutations that you can test, and it's essentially a genetic mutation, a marker that shows a heightened risk for breast, ovarian, and other sort of reproductive cancers. I think it's spoken about most in women, but certainly men can have the mutation as well. And it happens to be more prevalent in the Jewish population.

And so because of my mom's history and then when I had thyroid cancer, it had been recommended that I get tested just so that they knew how they should be tracking my health. And so I did that, tested positive. My stepfather was then diagnosed with cancer. And I, at that point, was just, you know, had not processed the trauma that had happened in the body and was then suffering from debilitating migraines and panic attacks. So, I mean, probably 12 years ago, I could have never sat in the studio with you. I couldn't be in a closed space without completely losing it both mentally and physically. And so later on, actually after I then, you know, so a lot of people who get diagnosed just back to the BRCA thing because it tested positive. I then was going and having MRIs or mammograms every three months, which, given my history, was added fuel to the fire of all of this anxiety. When my daughter was born, I decided that I didn't want to deal with living that way anymore. And then I wanted to be more proactive about my health. And so I decided to have a preventive double mastectomy. And I did that when she was about

eight months old. And it was after that surgery that I remember calling my internist one day when I was driving and I pulled over the car because I felt that same feeling I had felt when I was, you know, lying in bed in Italy 10 years before and said, I'm not okay. And I need help. And I pulled over the car because I felt that same feeling I had felt when I was, you know, lying in bed in Italy 10 years before and said, I'm not okay. And I need help. And I'm ready to get help. And I don't want to live my life this way anymore. And she sent me to the psychiatrist. And I was finally actually diagnosed with PTSD.

And that was the term that was, you know, applied to me. And so and that was the term that was, you know, applied to me. And so, and that was my best diagnosis yet. I mean, being diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder made me feel as if I'm not crazy because I felt as if I just wasn't trying hard enough to be a normal person. You know, I'd healed from all of these things and moved on, but yet I was, you know, completely going backwards in so many other ways. And this is PTSD that would have been related all the way back to when you were 21 or earlier. I mean, probably all of the above, but I think it, I mean, it's also linked, right? Right. I mean, in a way you could even probably link it back to

when your mom was diagnosed initially when you were four. Because I know when we first moved to LA and my mom took my brother and myself to go and have just an initial meeting with a child psychologist. And again, it was like, okay, you know, good to go. She's great. And so I think I was a really, I was really good at holding it together. And I think that right all, then finally all of these different things had happened. And even before I actually had the PTSD diagnosis, I remember being at another therapist's office and I could almost see within my mind this like welling up that went so far back of sadness and fear and anxiety around wellness and health and everything being okay. And I remember saying, you know, and this woman said to me, it's okay, just let it go,

just start to feel it and tap into it. And I just, that was my, I remember saying to her, I think it will kill me. Like, I think I will die if I start to feel all of this. And so, right, it wasn't until maybe five years later that then I knew that was the only way that I was going to be able to live was to actually unravel that and feel it. And it was. It was going back through all of it because it was all related. What is it like when you actually start to let yourself feel that it's terrifying and it's liberating and i think the best indicator of what happens when you start to feel everything or and and to to look at it and talk about it is you start to feel i start to

feel different in my body there's an immediate visceral response of relaxation. And it doesn't mean that you've figured everything out, that you've just muttered or cried out, but there's a visceral release that happens when you at least acknowledge whatever it is that's being held back. And that's liberating. And that then started to inform everything about my life. And so that was my early 30s. I mean, I had the double mastectomy when I was 32. And then you started therapy like right around the same age? Yeah. I mean, I had been in therapy many other times and had great therapists that had helped me through pieces. But I think, you know, I hadn't gotten there with sort of the giant elephant in the room. And so at this point, there was right this moment of breakthrough that then led. So right, I started therapy and worked with someone for a couple of years, two or three years, and also then started doing other alternative

things as well that supported that and helped with my healing. And so, yeah, I'm trying to think. My 30s were such an interesting decade because here I had a young baby. When she was two, I actually started a jewelry company. And then sort of on the side was, had this whole other, I really call it a job of finally looking within and trying to figure out how I wanted to live the rest of my life. And from that experience of sort of on the side or not, I don't know if I'd even say the side, because I think in many ways it was the main event was trying to figure myself out. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple

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Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. Then I got to this moment where, okay, there are a lot of things in my life that I have said yes to that I probably should have said no to. And that was where I, and that was really then later,

last cut was born from that moment of what are the things that we've either have happened in our lives to us or we've agreed to that then when we have a greater consciousness about who we are, realize that we need to reorient. And so it's those moments of significant decision where you have to sort of say, okay, wait, I went left. I probably should have gone right. How do I reorient? And so I then had another few years of really pulling apart many aspects of my life. Yeah. I mean, so powerful. And at the same time, you're a mom of a new baby girl and you're trying to support yourself as an entrepreneur, it sounds like, and an artist. And you've got this other full-time job of deconstructing your psyche and rebuilding it and your physical body to a certain extent because the trauma you've been through physically is profound. Oh, no. I mean, I've had six major surgeries. And the last one, right, I mean, I had my chest cut open twice when I had a newborn baby.

I mean, not quite newborn, but, yeah, under one-year-old child who I couldn't then pick up for four months. Which, I mean, talk about trauma. There's been a lot. I mean, it's taken a lot. I had to get myself in order to end up being able to show up as a good mother. But the beginning was a rough start. And the timing, you know, to a certain degree sucked. But I think sometimes, you know, hindsight's 20-20 and we're doing our best always.

But also at the same time, it sounds like, and tell me if this is true to you, it was the fact of becoming a mother that became sort of like the final straw in you saying, okay. Yeah, it was. And actually, I mean, not to go into any great detail about my actual birth of my daughter, but I had actually had a very healthy pregnancy, which given everything that my body had gone through was a shock to me and a gift. And I mean, I didn't get a single migraine during my pregnancy and nothing was ever wrong. I mean, it was one of those things where I was always expecting the worst for my body. Like, you know, because I always, I fell into the, you know, I was the 0.00475 percentage of what could go wrong with a medication, with, you know, whatever it is. And so my daughter gave me that gift. And then I actually got a migraine the day before she was due and went to the hospital thinking, okay, I just have a migraine. I've done this dance before.

And they said, no, actually, you're starting to go into labor. And I was diagnosed with late-onset preeclampsia, which is pregnancy-induced hypertension. And the mother's blood pressure goes up, and your liver can start to fail. It can be life-threatening. It's very dangerous. So my blood pressure was through the roof, which for me is highly unusual. And so the doctor, the specialist came in and wanted me to have a C-section. And my mom and my now ex-husband, but my husband at the time, were looking at me like, okay, let's just get this baby out. And I said no.

There was something within me. My daughter, again, it was this gift. There was something within me that I knew it was going to be okay. And so for 19 hours, because that's what happened, it was 19 hours of the medical staff coming in, my family, everybody looking at me and saying, and my liver markers were going through the tubes. I was on all of these other drugs. They had given me Pitocin. I mean, it was a disaster and a nightmare. But somehow I just had this faith that it was going to be okay.

Like I knew that she and I were going to be okay. And I kept pushing them off. And I ended up, I was able to deliver her without a C-section. And it was that. It was that moment where I thought, okay, I can do this. I can change. I can show up differently for this little person because I'm not broken. There's still something within me that there was just this little twinkle of trust in my body. And that's when I thought, okay, I have to do this differently for her.

And it took a lot of time and a lot of heartache, you know, as being a mother, because there were elements of that that probably, I mean, it were not, it was ultimately everything but selfish, the decisions that I were making. But I mean, I was, it was early in the marriage. I mean, it was all of it. And I was at this point where I was like, okay, I've got 15 years. Maybe if we go back to when I was five, this is a lot of stuff I need to pull apart to learn how to be in relationship with myself, let alone to know how to show up for someone else. So you end up, you're a new mom. You're newly empowered in an interesting way to process all of this stuff.

And you're also going through not just recovery from being a mom and from childbirth, but also where in here was the mastectomy? Sort of like in the timeline. My daughter was born in 2007, May 2007. And I had the double mastectomy in January of 2008 and then had the reconstructive surgery in, I think, April of 2008. So all of that before her first birthday. Yeah. What made you feel like it was time to have the double and just constantly being in fear and wanting to just step into having that behind me and having, again, it was, I think within me, it was this sensation of I want to take back my own power over my body. Yeah.

And maybe, again, the follow through from that decision at birth saying, okay. Exactly. More agency, more agency, more agency. Because I think, you know, it happens so often when we're diagnosed with something, we're not medical experts. And so then you're seeking counsel from the people that you think and often do know what's best for you. But there's certainly a huge loss of power in that within the self and trust in the self and the body. And certainly, I mean, I dealt with chronic pain and the migraines and the anxiety then for 10 years and was on so many medications.

And that was a complete loss of agency and loss of autonomy. And so that experience of birthing my daughter in such a profound way, it did give me, it connected me back to that place within myself that where I thought, okay, what do I want? What's going to make me feel more whole moving forward? Is it, you know, and going back, you know, then having done the work that I've done now, looking back, it's such a personal decision. And that's where I think for other individuals who have been diagnosed with the BRCA mutation, I would never say you should do this. Because everything's so personal. I mean, even when then I went and I initially elected to have reconstruction and then ended up taking out the implants, it's so personal.

And I think that for me, it was this moment of, okay, I'm finally tapping into knowing what I need so that I can be living a fulfilled life and a happy life where I feel connected and feel as if I'm in my body and integrated. Yeah. So tell me what happened. What was it that I think I have a better sense for the decision leading up to the double mastectomy? Within months later, you chose and then you had reconstructive surgery, which included putting in implants. Then you decided to take them out. So tell me about this. Okay.

So when I elected to have the double mastectomy, the options for not getting implants and not doing reconstruction aren't as well publicized as getting the implants. And at that moment, you know, old habits die hard. So yes, I was starting to dismantle all of these things, but I also was a couple of years into a marriage and had been told when we went into the doctor's appointment that, you know, these implants are what most, most women feel most normal with these implants. And so it was like, you know, a choice A or choice B. And, you know, most men think this one feels more normal and more real.

I mean, so the whole thing was looking back completely surreal. And I was still dismantling, yes, but not completely tapped back into who I was, you know, pre-cancer diagnosis, living in Italy, you know, at age 21, where I always have been this free spirit and artist and very clear on who I was. But at this point, I still am a new mom and I'm, you know, back living in Southern California. And what's it going to look like? You know, what do I want to look like? What's going to feel most sort of, you know, I'm already doing something that was fairly cutting edge at that point. And so I opted for the implants that I was told would make me feel best and most normal. And it was the options for you were implant A or implant B. There wasn't like a C option, which is what if there was no implant?

Right. No, I mean, that really wasn't, it was not ever presented to me where you could do nothing. And I remember asking, because I had known through just being in that world that some women use their own body fat and do. It's a much more extensive surgery, but that you can use your own body fat to construct breasts. And I didn't have enough to work with, basically, the doctor said. So I remember I had, there was this whisper within me that was like, ask what else? There has to be something else. And so I asked about, well, can we use my own cells? And that was not an option. And so I was like, all right. And I went, you know, there was basically, it was the saline, which has silicone around it or silicone. These gummy, they're called gummy bear implants, the ones that I had. So I went with that and,

you know, required, you then get these expanders and have to go and you get saline pumped into them for four months after you've had the double mastectomy so that the skin can handle it. And then you go in and they take out the expander implants and put in the real ones. So, I mean, it's two massive surgeries. It was horrifically painful. Yeah, it was really, it was horrible. One of my best friends was diagnosed with breast cancer recently and is now doing great, but then had to have a double mastectomy after going through chemo for seven months. And it was really hard for me because, again, you want to be encouraging. But I just, I was like, here, I have to call it and I have to be honest with you. Like, this is going to be really painful and you will get through it,

but you should know that it's, yeah, it's intense. It's, you know, our lungs are underneath our breasts and our heart is there. And so all of our, you know, you go to draw a breath and I felt as if I'd been run over by a Mack truck, you know, 10 times. And I have a very high threshold for pain because, you know, chronic migraines. I mean, I had a migraine that lasted for a month once. I mean, so it's painful, but I, you know, signed up, did the second surgery and, you know, looking back, I can't exactly, I ended up again and it's sort of, this was really one of the last things that I ended up dismantling and really looking at because, you know, I went with the party line, which was what I had heard around me, which, oh, well, I won't have to wear a bra when

I'm 90. And I did. I had these enviable tits that everyone was like, these are amazing. You're so lucky you breastfed and now you don't have to wear a bra. And, you know, and they were, I don't know why I went, I was, I went for, let's go for the biggest ones we can do just because we're doing it. And again, this was all of the societal stuff. You know, what then happened was years later, I ended up getting a divorce. I ended up closing my jewelry company because I had started it from a really authentic place of I'd always made jewelry and been very artistic my whole life and had started a company from that spirit, grew it to be something bigger. Because that's, I come from a family of entrepreneurs and that's what you do. And that's a sign of success

and was selling to 60 stores worldwide. And Amazon had picked it up and all of this. And I opened a retail store in Santa Barbara. And then one day I realized, oh my goodness, I'm not an artist anymore. I'm running this business. I'm dealing with the business end of things. And within the span of, you know, I'd been thinking about it a long time, but in a span of a month, closed the company. So I had done that. I moved. I then had another relationship that went sour and walked away from that. And so then really had this, you know, moment of, okay, I turned over everything at that point. And the implant issue didn't really come up. I had a friend come over after New Year's Eve in 2016, and she said, you know, I'm having my implants out because I

think they're making me really sick. I was like, oh. And at the time, I had six months been suffering with a MRSA staph infection that I couldn't get rid of. And still, like, I had done all of the stuff. I had cleared out my life in so many ways and simplified it and felt really great. But there still were some physical things. The second she said that, I was like, oh my goodness, these things have to go. And that was when I founded Last Cut. I called up my best friend, Lisa Field, who's a photographer. I said, will you photograph me for a year? I don't know why, but I think we need to photograph this. And I'm calling my doctor tomorrow and I'm driving to LA and I'm going to ask him to take these implants out. He did a beautiful job, but I think these things are making me sick. And beyond that,

I don't want them anymore. And so the documentary was born in that moment. And two weeks later, I had the implants out. And I remember waking up and even though it had been another surgery, waking up and feeling this incredible sense of freedom and an incredible sense of, it was just the culmination of everything that had been happening for that really almost 10 years before of getting clear on where I had said yes and I should have said no. And all the last cuts that led up to this one, which felt, I don't know if I would say it was the biggest one, but it certainly was the metaphor for everything that I had done in my life. And that's where then the project was born. And I decided to go out and talk to other people about their last cuts and the decisions that they were making to line up their internal world with the external. So two weeks later, immediate sense of freedom, a huge shift. We talked about how people around you struggle when you make decisions or when you're going through something like back when you were 21

and don't know how to respond to it. What was happening in your life between you and your family, conversations, you and friends when you made this decision and then did it? And was it a factor in? There were many different conversations that were challenging. I think my mom thought I was crazy. I was single at the time. I still am. And so I think, again, being in that role of mother, this idea, you know, so I had the implants removed with this and then was going completely flat just to give the context, the visual context to that and the decision that I was walking into. And I was told when I met with the doctor, he said, I'm more than happy to do it and support you and whatever you want. But just know you've now had these things on your chest for nine years. You might even be concave.

You know, this we're not we're concave. It's a different thing. And so I think that my mom was definitely trepidatious and scared a little bit for me. My dad and my stepmom were very supportive. They had been there for a moment in the hospital when I first had my double mastectomy. They were with me when I first looked at my chest. And so everyone had been along for the ride, but they said, okay, this is great, whatever you need to do, and it made sense to them. You know, this is the part that maybe the silicone was making me not feel well, and so they, you know, they get behind it. I think everyone, there were some who were immediately supportive and said, you do you. And, oh, I think you're actually going to look better. And, you know, because I have a really small frame and I had these enormous implants.

Like looking back at the photos, I realized how much I had disassociated from my body in so many ways. So, yeah, I had a lot of feedback. And I think most important is the second part of your question, which was how did I react to that and did it influence me? And this time it didn't. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. This time I was able to stand strong in those conversations and explain the why of the decision with confidence and writing about having the implants removed and the conversations that I've been having around that and then the similar thing of other people's last cuts, it really made me realize all of the work that we have to do to get back to that place of being able to navigate the big moments in our lives with our own compass. Because I think, yes, we have our people. I have my best friends that I seek advice. But at the end of the day, they can't tell me what to do. My family can't tell me what to do. I can't outsource what's right to do to society or

anyone else. I have to find that place within that guides me to the right decision. And so the last two years have been evidence of my coming into my own in that realm. Yeah. It's so interesting because you get to a point where also nobody can live with the consequences, but you. So it's at the end of the day, it's like, whatever the decision is, like it's my body that benefits or takes the hit. It's my life that benefits or takes the hit. And no matter what anybody else says may be right for them or what they feel is right for me, only I live with the consequences, good or bad. You made a really interesting decision, though, which is the decision to, the moment you knew that you were going to do this, to not keep it to yourself, to not only make your decision and process public in a very visual way, but

to invite other people's stories into it. And from what I know of you, what you've shared with me before is you're a pretty fiercely introverted human being. Yeah. What's behind that shift? What's behind? Because that's got to be like a very vulnerable decision to make, especially at that moment in time. Incredibly so. And gosh, I think that there was something in it.

I was so clear when I made the decision that there was almost an otherworldly force that came with that, which sounds really woo-woo. But I knew that there was more to talk about and more to share about my experience than just the fact that I was having the implants removed. And so it was different than, I mean, so many people share when they're going through cancer treatment or going through things in a very public manner, because it does, it creates community and it creates support. And I didn't necessarily feel, certainly I felt the support was important. I didn't need the support to hold me up because I had really gotten there really strongly, but I just, I had a hunch that there was something more to my broader healing that was going to come through talking about this because it was tied to what had come before it, which again, because I'm so private, I hadn't talked about a lot of the last cuts that had happened in my life leading up to the clarity

around this decision. And so Lisa and I had been talking about collaborating for a while, and I don't know. I mean, she was, you know, one of my best friends. I called her to talk about the surgery and we had wanted to collaborate. And so I don't know. It was just, I just had an intuition about it. And I think in part it was to create community. In part it was to normalize and show

and give support to others for these big decisions that require a massive landing within yourself to navigate what society tells you you should do or what your family tells you you should do or what the voices in our heads tell us, you know? I mean, forget everybody else out there. I mean, we all have those voices within that say, are you sure? Maybe you should do this, or maybe that is normal. And so I think it was this opportunity to really step into it and to shine light on the decision-making process as much. And I also had no clue where it would lead. And so initially, Lisa was just following me around with her camera, you know, or in the doctor's office with her iPhone to take pictures, to document it. And I

don't, I think initially I didn't know if it was just, I mean, I obviously put it up on Instagram, and started writing about it, but I don't think I knew. And within maybe three months after I had healed from the explant, it became really clear the more that Lisa and I had pulled apart all of the different issues around the explant. Just how much, and I already alluded to this before, just how much it really was a metaphor for what we're all going through all the time. And sometimes it's really simple ways. Like, should I eat this or should I not? And it's just like tap back into what you need for you so that you're doing what feels right so that you can go out and be of service in the world. And that was when I decided, okay, I want to go out and talk to other people. And we started the podcast and, you know, went and had these last cut conversations, as I call them.

And I wanted to know about other people's moments because I think living a really bold and authentic life, again, it's an internal job and it comes from within. But we still need community. So even those of us who are incredible introverts, there is something to connection and community and being pulled out of the cave. I like to think of my cave as a, you know, I like to call think of my cave. It's important. Yeah, I completely agree with that. And at the same time, the subject matter that you were building the conversation around

also had the effect of speaking to how we define ourselves and how we don't define ourselves and how so often social and cultural norms, we just default to those definitions of what is good, what is bad, what is real, what is beautiful, what is ugly, because that's all we know and we never really question them. And this was like a big provocation that said, question the norms when it comes to your identity. And I think, again, this was who I always was. And so I think there was something in

that too, of sharing it, because for me, it was a certain place of arrival, speaking to exactly the point you just raised. I mean, it's funny because today here I am wearing a skirt but I I tend to dress much more like a tomboy my brother and I were very much like people used to think we were identical twins when I was growing up I didn't I used to not care about so many of those constructs and with the trauma that happened I then began to outsource to what was happening around me to make me, you know, where I thought I would feel whole. Okay, if I play this role, if I grow my, you know, I have short hair, but I grew my hair out really long early on in my marriage because I thought, okay, if I have long hair and I wear these colorful dresses, I'm, you know, I'm fitting this mold,

you know, now I have these, you know, perfect, perfect reconstructed boobs and all of this stuff. And so I think that there was, your point is so perfect in that it highlights the underlying piece of it, which for me, I was, I am, and I was so at peace with the decision to be flat and so in love with my body with all of its imperfections. I have so many scars and, you know, all stretch marks. And I mean, all of the stuff that gray hair, I mean, all of it. And, and it, it doesn't, it defines me in the best of ways because it marks all of the different points on the journey. And so to shine that and to show what, I wasn't showing it because I wanted people to tell me

that I looked beautiful, but showing this, this is who I am. And I don't care if I don't look like everyone in the magazines because I feel amazing finally. And I've worked hard to get to this place of loving myself. I think that using the chest in the visual way that Lisa and I have throughout the development of Last Cut, it shows everyone, not just women, not just breast cancer patients, but it's like it's such

a visual that goes exactly to your point. That it's like no one can tell us what's normal. No one can tell us what's going to make us feel great. And I think it has as much of an impact on men as well, because. I mean, certainly from the perspective of don't look, you know, don't look at a woman and think that a female or feminine is defined in one way, but also what's happening within you, within all of us that isn't in line with who we actually are and how are we holding up societal constructs instead of just being ourselves and loving each other for it. No, I mean, it's interesting because I consider myself a relatively open person. And yet you look through your Instagram feed and there are lots of pictures of you, of different people, different women, and also a number of pictures of you bare-chested. Yeah.

And I was sort of paying attention to just how I reacted. Yeah. Both in terms of like how I react to my own body. Uh-huh. Because you're constantly sort of liking and disliking. There's a checklist for all of us, sadly. But I was also really paying attention to how I was reacting to the photos of you. And I was like, is there something in me that's still holding onto the construct of this is how it should look? And I was like, huh, you know, we all have our

stuff. Like we all, we've got implicit and explicit bias and like preferences that may or may not have anything to do with who we are, but just who we're told we're supposed to be. So it's interesting as a guy also to sort of look at the images and say, what is this telling me about me and maybe work I have to do as I look out at other men and women in the world and just implicitly pass judgment in certain ways. At some point, you end up partnering with Equinox also, which I'm guessing as much as you were putting yourself out into the world, you become part of this big national campaign. You're like, yeah, right. Like billboards and billboards of you, for those who haven't seen it, we'll link to it

in the show notes, essentially sitting back in a chair with a tattoo as working on your chest. How did you feel when that sort of exploded into public consciousness? Well, it was funny because, and I think I mentioned this to you just in communication before we were recording, but one of the texts I got from my mom within the first week was, you're not going to put yourself out there on the internet naked, are you? And I just texted her back. I said, I'm not, I'm going to stay true to the project because I feel as if Last Cut has its own life. And so I'm not doing anything just to be gratuitous, but I'm going to do what serves the project. And a casting agent for Equinox found me through the website. And when I got that email, I mean, Lisa and I joke about it all the time. I thought, this is crazy. This has to be, this isn't real. And it was real. And it was an incredible opportunity. And I feel as if my mission and theirs were, it was, everything was so aligned

in terms of what we were trying to communicate. And so it felt perfect from the very beginning. And I felt as if it was the opportunity to have a bigger platform for what I was trying to share, which was we can all be different. And the most important thing is finding that connection within that makes you feel empowered and beautiful and that we get to define ourselves. And their slogan is commit to something. And for me, so much of my healing had been committing to myself and committing to staying with the pain and the darkness until I saw it through. And so there was a little bit of, I wouldn't, I, there was never any, I never had any fear around it or anything. I was really,

I was so excited. And, but it's also completely surreal too, to then, I mean, there was on Sunset Boulevard back in LA, there was a 10, 10story high billboard of this image of my bare chest, which ironically, it's like 10 blocks from my mom's house. You know, since came around, it was so proud and would drive anyone and everyone who wanted to go see it by there. But to me, it was sort of a nod from the universe of saying, line up with who you are within. And when you communicate that out into the world, the law of attraction, I do think that you then attract the people and the opportunities that will align with your message and help you get it out there. And so the partnership with Equinox was, it was a gift to Last Cut and to me in terms of stepping even further into what I had discovered and who I had landed in.

Yeah, definitely a magnifier. Yeah, I mean, it is crazy. And there was so much, I mean, when it actually then went up last January, there was so much conversation around it. Yeah, and because there was a video that got released at the same, was it at the same time or did that come after? The video, no, I think the video came out. Like right around the same time, yeah. So, yeah. Even I didn't read the comments, but I know that people, you know, I don't spend, I barely spend any time on Facebook.

But I know the comments were many. And even I did a video with Style Like You and Allure in May, and same thing. And, you know, occasionally I get called sir, because if I'm, you know, dressed in jeans and a t-shirt and then the flat chest. And in that one, I talked about how I had been called sir on the way in from Newark Airport. And so we sort of deconstructed that and the fact that breasts don't define femininity. And again, the comments, people said, well, maybe if you didn't have your hair short and this, that, and the other. And it's like no one else has the right to comment on how any of us show up in the world. But to be able to weather that, you have to be very clear on who you are on the inside. Because otherwise it's very easy. Because even still, as you said, it's still a struggle.

I mean, I would be lying mean i'm not perfect in that realm and i may love my body more than i ever have but it was an interesting it was a big choice i won't say interesting it was a big choice to make in in the moment in my life where i was single and so and to then navigate through the world wondering how I am perceived in that realm is interesting. And many people assume I'm gay, too. I mean, it's funny how many people— What's that leap? Oh, again, I think it's how I dress.

It's the short hair and then the chest. I don't understand it because, again, I just think it's people put their own lens on everything. And so they make assumptions. As you become more public in the last two years, really, and it seems like there's power welling inside, but still very much out there in the world and a leader and staking her claim to a message and a voice. You have a daughter now. What's the conversation around who you are and what you're doing and who she is and who she sees you to now be publicly? That's such a good question. And it's really a tough one to answer because it's so layered. I think that in most days and in most respects, she sees what I'm doing and understands that it's important and powerful beyond just me talking about my story or being photographed.

I think at times the little girl in her is like, whoa, my mom's half naked on a billboard. And what do I tell my friends that you do? You know, she's like, what do I tell my mom, you know, that my mom's in women's empowerment? I was like, perfect. That's great. You can tell them I'm an artist, I'm a writer. You know, she's 10, certainly navigating what the world tells young women they should look like, feel like, dress like. So it makes for a very interesting conversation. And I think that's the best part. And what I appreciate most is that she and I stay in the conversation around not only what I do, but her experience in the world. And, you know, at the end of the day, I feel really great that I can't control

how the mean girls at school who, you know, make fun of things, I can't control what the magazines and TV and movies tell my daughter she should look like. I can control myself and how I show up. And I know in this moment that I'm 100% being truthful to who I am. And so I feel that as a parent, having arrived in that place, at the end of the day, allows me to sleep, even though there are so many moments, as you know, as a parent, where it's like, oh my goodness, I don't want to mess this person up. Like, what's right? Like, it's so hard and, you know, it's challenging. And so, but that's what I believe in most. That's what I know is living by my truth and living by the truth that I feel in my body. So if at the end of the day I don't feel some tightness in my body about what I've said or done or how I've shown up for myself but also for her, then I feel as if I'm role modeling to her how to be a healthy individual.

And I certainly am also role modeling that we can look differently and dress differently. And I might be embarrassing at times when I'm the one in the school assembly with the half-shaven head and no chest and kind of dressed like a boy and the tattoos and this fairly conservative place that we live in Santa Barbara, but I also think the artist in her and the rebel in her and the individual in her appreciates it and learns from it. So name me, this is a good life project. So if I offer that phrase out to you to live a good life, what comes out? I think it's very similar to what I just said. I think living a good life is first and foremost, living according to the truth that I feel in my body, which is kind of an esoteric thing. But just if I, speaking the truth, being truthful in my relationships, if everything that I'm doing is an extension of who I am on the inside, I feel as if that's a good life. And I think that what that brings with it that makes life not only good,

but great and exhilarating is that it brings connection and it brings happiness and wellness and most importantly, freedom. And I think that that's the theme of my podcast this season is freedom because I think, how do we tap into that for each of us? And it's an individual thing, but I think once, when we feel free in life, that feels really good. Thank you. Thank you. It was great.

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See you next time. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series

10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday We've been compromised The pilot's a hitman I knew you were gonna be fun On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die Don't shoot him, we need him Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk