Good Life Project - Secure Attachment & The Good Life: Surprising Insights | Amir Levine, M.D.

Episode Date: April 13, 2026

The tiny moments you ignore may hold the key to it all. New research in neuroscience and attachment science reveals that your brain is constantly monitoring your relationships through small, everyday interactions, and the signals it picks up quietly shape everything from your self-esteem to your sense that life has meaning.Most of us pour energy into the big relationship gestures, the long conversations, the grand repairs. But the seemingly insignificant exchanges, a returned text, a warm nod, a moment of simply being seen, may matter far more to your brain and your sense of security than you ever realized.Amir Levine, M.D. is a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and Associate Professor of Clinical Psychiatry at Columbia University who trained in molecular neuroscience under Nobel Laureate Eric Kandel. He is the coauthor of the international bestseller Attached, which has sold over two million copies in more than 30 languages, and his newest book is Secure, The Revolutionary Guide to Creating a Secure Life.In this episode, you'll discover:The brain science behind why even brief moments of exclusion can erode your self-esteem, sense of control, and feeling that life is meaningfulA 5-part framework (with a memorable acronym) for building the foundation of every secure connection, one you can start practicing todayWhy your attachment style isn't something to "fix," and the hidden superpower built into your specific wiring that you may be overlookingTwo simple rules for navigating conflict that keep even heated moments from damaging the bondAn overlooked relationship practice that works like two-factor authentication for trust and deeper connectionIf you've ever wondered why certain relationships feel effortless while others leave you anxious, guarded, or drained, this conversation will change how you see every interaction in your day. Hit play and discover how small, consistent shifts can help you build the kind of secure, connected life your brain has been searching for.You can find Amir at: Website | Take the Attachment Quiz | Episode TranscriptNext week, be sure to tune in for an episode with me about the 'Unbusy Manifesto' and the six daily practices that will help you reclaim your time and your sanity.Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the WheelVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So here's something that caught me off guard. Your brain is consistently scanning your relationships, not the big, dramatic moments, but the tiny ones, a return text, a nod in passing, a moment where someone just kind of sees you. When those small signals say you belong, you're safe, something in a shift, your confidence, your sense of meaning, even how much you feel in control of your own life. But when those signals go quiet, your brain sounds the alarm, whether you realize it, or not. My guest today is Amir Levine, a psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and professor at Columbia University, who trained under Nobel laureate Eric Handel. He's a co-author of the international

bestseller attached, and his newest book is called Secure. And in our conversation, we explore why rejection stings so hard at the neurological level. We talk about the hidden superpowers inside each attachment style. And we talk about a five-part framework for building the kind of deeply connected, secure relationships that your brain has been searching for. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. One of my big curiosity is just out of the gate is why does being ignored or rejected universally hurt us so much?

So much. I'm so glad you asked it right out of the gate, because it's kind of, it's, it's, it's, It's kind of like the basis of all these whole new book he's based on. It's kind of like the biggest thing that a lot of us are even not aware of how much it hurts us. And even our society actually accepts exclusion. And I just want like it just, it's something. And I'll give you a little bit of background of how we actually found that it hurts the brain so much and how much it hurts the brain. And then I'll tell you why I think that is.

and where I realized it. It happened in a very specific trip that I took. But it took me time to get there. So the whole science of exclusion comes from a series of studies that are called the soluble experiments. And based on that, I've come to call it the soluble effect.

And in the soluble experiments, it all came from one researcher, Kit Williams, who actually was walking in the park with his dog one day. And then all of a sudden the Frisbee came sailing in his direction and he picked it up and he sort of threw it back at the people like who were playing and they started to include him in the game and then just as all of a sudden just as they just started to include him all of a sudden they just went back to playing the two of them and he

remembered I remember talking to him and he said he remember feeling surprisingly bad of being left out even though he expected it no one thought he was going to continue playing with them there were strangers, but that's kind of like stuck in his mind. And he went on to create this amazing set of experiment called the Cyberball Experiments where you watched a video game. It's kind of like a two-dimensional video game. There's nothing immersive or even persuasive about it. And you're like a figure and you lay catch with two other figures. And all of a sudden they stop throwing the ball in your direction. And what they found was two different, two separate sets of findings. One, how it affects the brain and the second how it affects our psychology.

So our brain, like areas of like painful distress, just like go online and like preoccupation and sort of assessment. What's wrong? What have I done wrong? Why is this happening? And like a lot of distress. So it really triggers distress. And the psychological part of it is that it causes, it sort of elicit what I've come to called

EMC. Sort of it really decreases people's self-esteem. it makes people feel that life is less meaningful and it makes them feel that they're in less of control of their lives and that's crazy to me when I read that I was like that's just insane things that I always thought how much I feel I'm controlling my life my self-esteem or that life is meaningful I never thought that it related to how other people relate to me especially not like in such small relational moments

So these are the findings of the sabbobol effect. Because to me, it's like all these things that we think that are related to us and how we feel about ourselves, not necessarily in relations to others, are really connected to how others relate to us. Yeah. I mean, so it's wild that what you're describing, tell me if I'm getting this right. So basically people, sort of play a virtual game where you're playing catch

and then all of a sudden you're excluded from the catch. Like nobody's throwing you the ball anymore, basically. Right. And even that, which seems like it be kind of innocuous. Like this is, we all kind of know it's, you know, it's a game. Like, you're saying you were able to register very clear changes in brain physiology showing like the distress centers lighting up and on the psychological side of it. Feelings of exclusion and lack of self-esteem and sort of like being almost like cast out. It's not like a conscious process. It seems like it's something that's more wired into it's primal. Right, completely. That's like I thought about like a knee jerk reaction. Like we can't stop it. We can't control it.

Very similar here. It's something that's ingrained in us. As you're describing that, it's reminding me of years back I was actually working on something. And I started going deep into the research, the work of John Cachopo, on loneliness and lack of belonging. He's describing a lot of the same things that you're describing. I don't recall him actually doing fMRI studies. or like neurological studies where they could see what was happening. But behaviorally, they saw all these same things.

And it was profound. But for some people, it made them pro-social. Like, how can I change? How can it be nicer? How can I be kinder? So I can be included again. For other people made them antisocial. They got filled with anger and rage and actually lying,

how can I get back at this person? How can I hurt them for excluding me? Have you looked at that, like, the response also? Yeah, I love that you're saying that people react differently. and I think that also relates to the attachment styles. That we have different programming inside us that kind of like decides for us how we're going to react. Like we're not fully at the helm here

and we don't really completely... And we know that a lot of the way that we react to the world to the relational world really depends on our attachment style. And so, like, if people who have a more of secure attachment style, they don't see it as much as a threat. And sometimes maybe even though they'll have their soluble effects, but they may just say, oh, they are able to really, they don't register it as much of a threat. They can register it, but their brain doesn't react as powerfully to it, whereas people who have insecure attachment styles, they respond to it much more powerfully.

And I guess that's one of the reasons, just the fact that responds so differently to our environment is one of the things that I really, that I actually use to, try to help people become more secure by learning to engineer your environment in such a way that can calm your brain. You can sort of find a way to change, not just calm the brain, because you feed a different messages that can help it change. Yeah. Let's talk a bit about attachment styles before we dive more, more in a more focused way into security because this is one of those phrases. It's so many of us have heard. You know, like, and it's almost like it's centered pop culture in a lot of different ways, what's your attachment style. And like, you know, but I don't think many of us really understand what we're talking about

when we actually say the phrase attachment style. So break this down for me, maybe in language that, you know, just somebody who's never even heard about this could get. Yeah, I mean, it's amazing to me that so many people talk about it because when I wrote my first book attached almost like more than 15 years ago, it was just some scientific lingo, but I found it so useful myself. The way I think about attachment style is that it all has to do with how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness.

That's on the one side. And then on the other side, how much of a, how sensitive of a radar do we have for potential disruption in the connection? So if we have, if we love, love, love, closeness and intimacy, but at the, the same time, we have a very sensitive radar to potential threat. And when I mean threat in attachment lingo is everything that stands in a way of the availability of the other person. So, like, the cyberball effect, like a one-on-one version of the cyberball effect is called still-facing. When someone all of a sudden doesn't respond to you, they sort of have a

blank face, they ignore you. So it's like that's a, like, a special case of cyberball, which is I called still facing. It's based on this still facing experiment. And so when people with anxious attachment style have love, love closeness, but are very sensitive, like a little, like if you come and you're sad, they feel like, oh my God, what's wrong? Like, they're sick of me. They don't, they don't want to be with me. There's a lot of fear that relationships are fragile and that can like easily be destroyed and that you're not going to be loved as much as like you love others. So it's sort of like this world belief about around that. That's anxious at that. Now, do you avoid it that...

So just someone, I want to make sure I'm really clear. So anxious attachment would be somebody who really craves and values deep connection. But when there's even the slightest hint of somebody feeling that they're tuned out, they're not connected, they're sort of like focused away from them, whether that's real or imagined, that creates a spin cycle on them. Yeah, and the thing is what I found a lot in the literature and I think even in my humble opinion

even the literature, the research literature is a little bit biased because they really do point out that they have this amazing, they're like the canary in the coal mine, they have this amazing senses for detecting danger and sometimes they do jump into conclusions but oftentimes

they are very accurate. They are accurate. But what I found was that it goes to be, just detecting danger or potentially in relationships, is a lot of what I looked, when I looked at some of the imaging studies, I see that they really find that not only they can detect danger,

they're just very good in detecting nuance in people, in environment, and in general. So that can be an amazing gift if giving the right circumstances and the right environment. And that's what I try to do in this new book is really come up with a set of tools that can help people create a secure environment for themselves. But in some ways, I think about the anxious attached,

the people are anxiously attached. There's a whole theory about orchids and dandelions, and I think about them more like orchids. And there is findings that show that a segment of the population are more like orchids. They're very finicky. They need very specific environment to flourish, but they really flourish beautifully.

And dandelions, they can grow anywhere, and it's fine. And it wouldn't matter if you give them a better environment. They'll grow here, they'll grow there, but they're not, but the orchids of this world, and that's what they've shown in multiple studies, when you give them the right environment, they outperform the dandelions. So it's just like really fine, like helping people create the right environment for themselves. Yeah, it's so nuanced. It's fascinating.

That's anxious. Talk to me about the others really common ones that we've heard of. So now we'll move to the other one. The anxious are, like, I wouldn't call it, trouble makers, but you know, that's a lot of relationships don't often come easy to them, and the avoidance also relations don't come easy to them, and for a different reason. It's kind of like the other side of the coin. The avoidance, they want to be in a relationship. We're all very social species, so we all need relationships. but when they get into a relationship

and doesn't have to be only romantic relationships and I'm talking even the anxious, I'm talking about different types of relationships. They don't feel too comfortable with too much closeness. So they start to use what we call an attachment lingo deactivating strategies to create distance in their relationship. So they'll walk a few steps ahead of you.

Let's say you're going on a trip and you're going to go on this amazing vacation in Paris. We're going to walk hand in hand. then they're saying, and then all of a sudden you find that your partners walking a few steps ahead of you all the whole time. And it's like, what the hell is going on? And then you can get like, so again, how you will respond to that really depends much a lot on your attachment style.

Like someone anxious will say, oh my God, again, this is so horrible. They got upset or get like despondent by themselves, I'm not loved, or who did they think they are, and then they must start a huge fight. But someone who's secure may not feel it as much. but the avoidant, or we'll have a different way of responding to it, and we can talk about that in a moment, but the avoidant, they have these deactivating strategies that they use all the time to minimize closeness.

And oftentimes they don't know it themselves, that that's what they need. And so that sends them on, that gets them into so much relationship problems. And I try to sort of really show them in this new book. Like I have these three, And it's really, it's a new kind of therapy that I started to help people become more secure, secure priming therapy. I teach them these three common pitfalls that they fall into without even knowing it that gets them into trouble in relationships.

Because often they don't even understand what they did wrong because they engage with someone and then all of a sudden, okay, it's been nice to spend a weekend together. And now I'm back to work and you don't even think about it. They don't, they naturally create distance because they need it. So that's the avoidant attachment style. And you can see how, and you can see how, like, anxious and avoidant can, one, like, wants a lot of intensity and closest and very sensitive to potential threat. And the other instilled a lot of threat by deactivating strategies and constantly get the other person, like his attachment or circuitry,

that whole cyborable effect gets that constantly triggered. Yeah. So we've got anxious and avoidant. And you've referenced to cure a number of times now. Yeah. Is there any, is it basically those three? Those are the three that's also a small segment of the population that are fearful avoidance. It's kind of like a mix of the anxious and the avoidant. So they do want. So avoidance were like, I don't really need closeness. I would need I'm self-sufficient. They don't like the idea to think that they're going to depend on anyone. There's like, for each his own. They're fearful of, no, they want closeness, similar to the anxious, but when people get close to them, they start to feel really uncomfortable.

So there's this constant push-pull scenario where, like, with one hand they say come closer and with the other, like, stay away, stay away. And they really struggle between, vacillating between the two. And that creates a lot of relationship instability, as you can imagine. Yeah. So, I mean, with the anxious,

you described that, yes, there are certain struggles. built into it, but there are also potentially benefits. And there's a superpower side of this, too. Do you see the same thing with avoidant styles? Oh, yeah, for sure. So, and I know, I think, and that's the other thing you know in social media, they, they're sort of really, and some of it I have to say, in my new approach and in my new,

I have to say, I kind of like make immense the avoidance of this world because in the original book and attached, we just took the research finding and we just took the research finding, and we described them. And I think even the research is a little biased because, I mean, he shows that if their partner is sick, they're not going to take care of him that well,

that they have a wandering eye, that they do all these things. Like, that even if you do all these amazing things to them, they ignore it and kind of like they look for like for the negative, all sorts of things. But in my practice, because after I wrote like attached, I spent like 15 years like trying to help people become more secure.

People came to me and said, oh, how can I become more secure? I didn't have an immediate answer to that initially. And then I built all these sort of tool, and really a new type of therapy of treatment to help people become more secure. And I found that oftentimes avoidance are really misunderstood, that there is this innate need for distance

and that they just don't know how to handle it right and they sort of like trip themselves and others don't know how to like approach it so much. So I think the main power, superpower is that ability to function on their own and carry on despite difficult things happening around them, relational things happening around them. And one amazing study that shows you the benefit of both the anxious and the avoidant. It's such a brilliant study. They put a group of people in a room and they, all this done, there's a tiny, a little bit of smoke coming out of one

of the computers. And the anxious attaches were the first to identify it. And the avoidance were the first out of the door. And everybody else followed. So they're like, I'm out of it. I'm not waiting for you guys to decide. Because you know, sometimes like, are we going to go out? Should we leave?

Should we stay? They're like, no, they're not stopping, not checking. They function on their own. And it worked. They can really work well on their own. They can decide things on their own. They don't really need a lot of reassurance from others. They value.

their autonomy. So there are advantages to that. That's so fascinating. I wonder if you're aware of, I'm so curious about it. I wonder if you're aware of any research that looks at any correlations between, we get this right, avoidant attachment styles and sensory processing issues or struggles. So what the research does show is that, people with avoidant attachment styles suppress, like really suppress their attachment needs. And they actually, they had this research when you have to identify words that are related to attachment. Like you just press on a, is it a word and not word?

It's sort of a common psychological thing. And avoidance oftentimes don't regularly recognize the attachment words that quickly. But if they give them a cognitive load, like they tell them, remember a set of numbers before you do this experiment. So now they're working hard in their brain to do something else also. All of a sudden that suppression lifts and they perform as well as others.

That's how they find that there's an active suppression of their attachment needs. So, yeah, I mean, there is a level of I don't really need anyone and I'm going to really push a whole level of awareness out of, of my, a whole level of need or subtlety out of my awareness because it's too much for me. I don't even know if to give it.

Yeah, I think that's how I would say it's too much for me. Yeah, I mean, that kind of makes sense. All right. So then you referenced Secure a number of times. Take me more into what this is and how we experience it. So secures, I have to say, oftentimes there, what I've found, before I even sort of came across this whole body of information about the adult attachment styles. Finding out about secures really transformed my life and how I see people.

Because secures, in my mind, throughout this work, I fell in love with the secures of this world. But oftentimes, they're ignored because they're always there for us. They're warm and loving. They love closeness. But if you also, you need your distance, they'll give you your distance. They really are easy going in a relationship. And that's one of the reasons is because they don't have a relationship. a very sensitive radar. So a lot goes over their head. They're not going to notice things that

are happening in their relationship, probably the last people to know if they're being cheated on or they just don't notice things. But not only that, they're also amazingly good in regulating their affect and their partner's ethic. And that is such a huge gift in a relationship. And I remember this one example that a patient of mine gave me, they went to Whistler on a ski trip, with her partner. And this is the first secure partner that she had. And she said,

they got to their cabin in Whistler, and I don't know what happened. In the first two minutes, they were there. Like, he got very upset with her about something, and he stormed off. And her heart was sinking because, like, oh, no, it was all too familiar to her. this is like this big fight in the beginning of a vacation of a trip and he's going to ruin the whole vacation.

But then two minutes later, he's like, she's like he sort of comes through the door and he said, I'm so sorry. I really don't want to, I really don't want this to be this way. I'm sorry I overreacted. Here, come, let's have a hug and start all over again. And like they did that and she said, that was it. It kind of like changed the whole course. there was no like long sort of like silences like all this sort of like additional fight or talking about how this was wrong or that was wrong it's all dissipated and that's what secures are so good at it's kind of like really regulating people's affect and so if you have secure people in your life are really there's almost like having a relationship coach or even like a life coach built into your life but oftentimes they're the ones we ignore because they always text to back. They always respond to us to like our mind goes to places where oh my god, we've been

savable, we've been still faced and we need to fix this. And the ones that are there on the side, they're always there. We ignore them, even though there's such a huge asset for us in our journey. And they can help us become more secure. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. So it's like if you are a secure attachment style, you may have a higher risk of kind of being taken, just not taking advantage of, but taken for, you know, like, for granted. For granted, you just assume you're always going to be around. You're just that kind of person. And I don't really have to give you as much or pay attention to you. So you may end up, I would imagine, even though you feel secure, over time, you know, a certain amount of upset may start to build. I think so. But the thing is, oftentimes secures also really know how to ask for what they need. Oh, that's interesting.

Yeah, no, I told you, there's just like this sort of. magical creatures when it comes to relationships. So they know how to ask for what they need. They know how to do it in a way that's effective. They're just like because there's no feeling of danger and the way that they go about doing it, like there's this whole thing in the book I write about, like even this whole idea of people pleasing.

If they need to say no, they'll just say no. But they don't think, oh my God, if I say no to this person, they're going to respond so badly. They don't really, it doesn't register to them like that. So it creates a, the opposite of a self-fulfilling prophecy. I mean, it creates a secure self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's just like things, even at work, they need to have difficult conversations. They can help them. They just like, they, everything is less, because everything, you don't feel that the danger is bubbling up behind. So it makes it easier. Yeah, it's like they themselves probably don't feel that danger.

They're more comfortable than expressing their needs and probably also appreciations. And it's almost like they're modeling, you know. Oh, exactly. safety so that you can actually do the same thing back to them. I love that you said that because that's exactly it. And that's what I, so what I tried is sort of to do in this, in this new approach, the secure problem therapy or a secure problem coaching,

is to teach people that, and the other part that's really important is that it's, I basically developed an antidote to that cyberball effect. And I call it the carp. It's kind of an acronym C-A-R-R-R-P, which stands for consistent, available, responsive, reliable, and predictable. And the way that it works, and that's basically, these are like the five pillars of a secure connection. And that's what secures naturally do. They're naturally carp. They're consistent, available, and responsive.

And the other part of it is that you have to experience them. It's kind of like a two-factor authentication as reliable and predictable. and secures do that automatically. And I try to teach people who have insecure attachment style about carp and how to be carp and how to converse with others and tell them about those five pillars of secure connection and teach them because these are things we can learn.

We just don't know them, but they're not that difficult to learn. And also because it's not in the big things that people need to be our brain, the attachment system, it's a curator system. It checks in the little things. And that I've come to call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions

of everyday life, also semis. So it's in those semis that our attachment lives. It doesn't care if you talk to me all night, but then if all of a sudden disappear, it will care about the little things. So if you really want to invest work in a relationship, invest in the, if you understand the attachment logic, You'll invest in those semis and make them consistent, available, and responsive.

You don't need to go all out and spend, like, be attached to the hip. The attachment system doesn't need that at all. In fact, it's the opposite. It's a system of safety. Secure relationships end up sort of being in the background of our lives. It actually allows us to kind of like forget about the people for a while and engage in work and engage in sort of like parenting and all the things that you want to do,

they serve as a safe base, basically. Yeah, I mean, that makes so much sense. I love the acronym Simi also. Seemingly insignificant, what was... The seemingly insignificant minor interactions. Right, so it's like the tiny moments. You know, that often we don't even focus on, we don't pay attention to, but they can actually really matter.

I do want to drop into your carp model in more detail, but before we get that, there's this lingering question, which is, so you've shared these three different attachments, styles. It may be kind of like a less frequent fourth one, the more than fearful, right? It seems like they're incredible benefits to the secure attachment style. But at the same, and so you would assume, well, we should all want to try and find our way to that style. But I guess the question is spinning in my head is, but you also share that each of the insecure attachment styles, they also have certain superpower, certain benefits.

So do we lose those benefits by somehow being able to become more secure? And if so, is that loss outweighed by the benefits of actually the secure style? I'm so glad you asked that because I can't tell you how many patients come to me. And that's like I have this one particular person that I can think of. Faharos, like, his biggest fear that he's going to lose his edge. Like that trader that you were talking about. I'm like, I'm making millions of dollars because of it is.

Why would I want to like him? Like he's going to lose his edge. I mean, so you know what? Then my answer, I wish, I wish like we are like that our ability to intervene like to extract it that we were so powerful. But the truth doesn't matter with the way that he works. We have a certain biology that sort of identifies all these semis. And people, let's say, they're anxious,

can identify those semis much better. that doesn't go away. What you can create is what I've come to call, what you can create is what I've come to call you can live in secure mode and you can take that particular area where it comes as a disadvantage to you and you can take that particular area

that comes as a disadvantage to you and learn to shape it using those carp and semis to something that would actually be more aligned with your biology. You can't really change that basic biology that much. That ability to sense things in the environment, that doesn't entirely go away. But what does go away is that what happens when that environment gets triggered,

initially we became hyper-aware and hyper-aroused. But when you, it's like a tracker, like when you walk, like in, like, and you're trying to track and there's the thing that there's danger, all of a sudden you'll be much more aware of every little sound. But if you know, you know, actually, the environment is actually not much safer. You're going to let your guard down and you're going to not notice any, like, every little thing in that particular environment. And that's what I'm trying to achieve in this new treatment or this

new approach is to live, to learn to live in secure mode. And those areas that, like, in places where things, it's not working for you. And that's what I really love about this whole attachment. you know, attachment, the whole body of knowledge doesn't come from the medical model, which I love. It's not about health or disease. It's about, is it effective or ineffective? Is it working for you or not working for you? So it's like about 25% of the population are avoidant, about 20% are anxious, and about 50% are secure. So it's not that people are avoidant or anxious are like, it's not unhealthy. It's just

a variation on the norm. It's just big for evolutionary speaking. There was an advantage to having a portion of the population be able to act decisively in a moment of crisis or be able to detect potential threat in terms of just like survival.

But the survival, but evolution doesn't care about our personal happiness. It's about the survival of the species. We're just like this we are gene-carrying, like, entities that are supposed to carry on the genes to the next generation. And our personal happiness, it couldn't care less about it. But I care about our personal happiness. So I thought about a way to design a system that helps people live in

secure mode, where they find things challenging. Yeah. I mean, I love the way you described that. So it's almost like, if I'm getting this right, like if you're, You have this anxious style. It's not going to go away. It's to a certain extent wired into you. You're still going to be scanning the environment and picking up a lot of inputs, probably much more nuanced and subtle ones than other people. But maybe if you also sort of develop the skill to drop into secure mode on a much more regular basis,

maybe all that stimulus is still coming in at you, you'll be able to process without basically saying like red alert, right alert, right alert, just more like, oh, interesting, information. I'll take it in, and there's a different way that I can sort of like move with it. So the answer as to how to do that came to me from a completely different field that I work in. I'm also a molecular neuroscientist. And there, I found, like, when you do all these experiments and you really see how the brain changes on a molecular level, the structural brain, like how the brain changes on a structural level from,

changing the environment. So our brain, we think about our brain is something sheltered inside our skull, but it's really one of the most environmentally sensitive organs in our body. It sends all of our sensors like these tendrils that constantly survey the environment.

It's very, very sensitive to the environment. So the idea is to create an enriched secure environment for yourself. So, for example, if you have an anxious attachment, you're very sensitive to those seemies that are not carp, that are not consistent, available, and responsive.

But remember, I told you that we tend to, our brain tends to sort of really go, especially for people who are anxious, really goes to the areas to those people who are not carp and try to correct that or engage with that. Well, all the while, there's all these secure people that are there that you can, interact with, but you neglect because your brain goes where all the sort of drama happens.

And that's also part of your world belief that this is how relationships are. So the brain kind of like ignores the other thing. And I say no, you have to go and you have to take an in there. You look at your relationships and take an inventory. And I'm not just talking about your romantic partner. I'm talking about your friends. Other people in your life, are they carp? and if they're not carp, then I sort of suggest then maybe try to do a carp intervention. I call it a carp intervention.

It's kind of like explain to them about the suburbable effect, about all these different things. Because oftentimes people go into their history, oh, I'm reacting like that because I was like this or like that in childhood. But I find that it's really wired into our brain. It doesn't necessarily have to come from childhood.

And so you can explain to them, and gave them a chance to be more carp. And the truth is, many of us, and that's what also the theory shows, that we have these secure kernels inside us, like some experiences that we have today, even now, the secure people around us or growing up of really secure moments

that we've had with the different people in our lives. In the book Secure, I start the book by telling about this vacation that I went to with my summer vacation that I went to with my sister's friend and her mother, and her mother, Ruth, was amazingly secure. And that's still, I still remember that even now, when I think about it, I get goosebumps

because that was such an amazing vacation, but part of it because Ruth was so secure. And that affected me to the core. So you can sort of tap into those secure kernels inside people and try to summon it to come out by telling them about what it means to be carp. And if they can learn and become more that way, then you've achieved. You're trying to create a secure village to yourself.

Then that's great. You've recruited another person. But what I also say is that if they can't do it, I don't say you don't have to cut off ties with them. But maybe, I mean, better to give them less priority in your life. So they don't sort of board group number one or two. They don't get priority boarding to your plane. board like, I don't know, group number eight. Yeah. So let's walk through the cart model in a little bit more detail.

I want to really understand what the five different qualities mean with the language that you're using. So consistency, availability, responsiveness, reliability, and predictability. Talk me through each one of these. And what do you actually mean by them? So consistent, the brain, our brain, our attachment system is like a surveillance system. It's really what people, like, do you have, like, it's a, it's a way, the way that we feel safe in the world. People think, oh, if we have a lot of money in the bank, if we have a condo, that's how I'm going to feel safe.

But that's not how our emotional brain feels safe because that emotional brain wasn't created when these things were around. It was created when other people like me were around, and that's how, and it computes. So it started the level that if you and I were sitting in the same room, just by the sheer fact that you're sitting next to me, that reduces my chance of being becoming brave by 50%

because it's either going to go after you or after me and sort of that's, I can run away. But that's huge and the brain knows it. But the human brain goes a step further. Not only the human brain, also social birds, by the way. It's very fascinating. There's all these experiments in social birds and how there's this census capability

that our brain senses that others are around us and we feel safer that way, think about walking in a dark alley by yourself or with someone else. Immediately you feel better if you were with someone else. So that's one thing. But then the other thing,

our brain can really assess the quality of their relationship. So that's an upgrade that we got as human, the quality of the relationship. And if the quality is better, then we feel safer. So the consistency is a way for us to assess the quality of the relationship.

There is like people show up for us in a consistent way, and the brain monitors for that. So if you text someone every day and all of a sudden, if someone texts you every day and all of a sudden they stop texting you, immediately you'll notice it because that's what we're programmed to notice it. But if they texted you once a week, you're not going to notice that they haven't texted you every day because you create this level, this baseline.

So that's where the consistency is. It's about that attachment homeostasis, a baseline that's created. That's one thing. And then the availability, it's an internal decision. Once you understand how important it is to be consistent, and that also that we depend on one another for emotional well-being, that we think about the suburbable effect and how much we respond to sort of potential disconnect from others,

then you have to make an eternal decision that you're going to be available to the people in your life. And I So we can say even to the immediate people in your life But if you think about those themees and connection Even nodding and saying hello to the elevator to someone That also increases that feeling of hyperconnectedness Which kind of like is the opposite of the solvable effect So you have to make a decision to be available to the people in your life

So that's and then consistently available responsive And so the responsiveness is sort of the actual act of that availability right? Once you make that decision, if they reach out to you, then you respond to them. So that's kind of like seals the consistent of elbow and responsive. But it's not enough that I will feel, oh, I'm so car, I'm so great. No, no, no, no. It's not enough. It's a two-way street. It's a two-factor authentication model. You need to make sure that the other person actually experiences you that way, that they experience you as reliable, someone who shows up in a reliable way, and predictable, that you don't all of a sudden ghost them in a jarring way.

So then that seals the deal. It's kind of like, you have to be a car, but you have to make sure that the other person actually perceives you as reliable and predictable, and then your carp. And that's sort of like the five pillars of a secure connection. And what it does, I didn't tell you with that cyberball experiment, they also did the opposite experiment,

where it's called a reverse cyberball. So now you're standing in the middle and you're throwing the ball to someone. They're throwing it back to you. You turn around. You're throwing to the other guy. They're back to you. And you're always hyper-included.

And they find that it actually has all these amazing, it's kind of like the opposite. It has this amazing effect. It makes you feel more self-esteem, that life is more meaning and that you're more symptom control. So that being hyper-included, really the brain loves it. As much as the brain loads that this,

He loves being included. So I really thought for a long time, how do I create that immersive, hyper-inclusive way? That's where I kept up with those carp semis. You really want to try to make as many as your carpcimis to create that amazing things. And think about how amazing it is sort of like with those little increments

to increase yourself esteem, that life is more meaningful, all of these good things that can happen. when you feel this sense of connection around us. And we'll be right back after a word from our sponsors. So, I mean, and it's kind of, it sounds like it would be a two-way street where, yes, you would like to be on the receiving end of the consistency and the availability and responsiveness and the reliability and predictably. And you also want to show up that way for others. Oh, yeah, of course.

Because there's going to be like the expectation of, you know, you can't just sort of like be on the receipts. evening end of all of this and expect everything to be awesome. It all has to be reciprocal, of course. Yeah, yeah. And doing this, again, not in these big grand gestures, which might be fine, might be great. Like, hey, that's awesome. But it also feels like it takes the pressure off a bit when you talk about these simies, the seemingly insignificant minor interactions because you're kind of like, I can literally,

it can be the barista, you know, like just acknowledging them and saying hi and remembering their name and this, you know, it can be just these random people that you, you know, pass through or that you interact with on a regular or or somebody really close to you, but just like a moment that neither of you would identify as being like a big moment, but it's just, it matters. You know, it's like these little innocuous things that really aren't innocuous and there are opportunities for us if we start to look at them that way. Yes, I love that you said that there are opportunities because that's exactly it. It's not just something that's nice for us to have. Yeah. Because again, when people come to therapy, they think I need to talk about like the

the things that happened to me childhood or like the big event that happened in my life. And they rarely think about those semis as a vehicle for change in the brain. But really, like, each and every seemie is an opportunity for you to rewire those expectations where, like, if you create, if you now make all these secure people a priority for you, let's say you're anxious. And now you're like, instead of like, why you're not texting me? You actually, instead of like doing that, it's like, oh, this person always text me. but I never text them because I'm like, let me start conversing with them. And all of a sudden, you develop a different back and forth.

And it's just like, and your brain rewires on that because it's attachment styles or also they're called working models. It's a set of expectations that we build around certain beliefs about the world. But now you're giving your brain different data. It's like, wow, actually people do show up for me on a regular basis. Actually, I am lovable. actually relationships are not that fragile. They actually very, very stable.

And all of a sudden your brain is getting all that information in little bits, but over time. And that's the beauty of that enrichment idea. And it changes the brain on a structural level. And it takes time. It's not like, hey, try this. And you're like once a month. And see, it sounds like what you're just,

describing is more of, can I make this a practice? You know, can I just, just see if I can repeat it on a regular basis because it's through that repetition that you start to gain the evidence that your brain needs to be like, oh, wait, that original assumption about danger or flakiness or anger or, you know, like abandonment, like in all these little micro moments, it's being disproven. And eventually over time, that's going to start to say, oh, like, maybe that initial assumption wasn't founded in something that Yeah, he just like gets rewritten.

That's the beauty of it. Yeah, it's like re-encoded. Another thing that pops into my mind, and this is actually something I recall you wrote about, is this notion, okay, so let's say we're doing this work. We're looking for the CMEs, we're adapting this CART model and really trying to operationalize this

in our relationships, in our life, and it's kind of working. Like, we feel like we're dropping into that secure mode on a regular basis. And then, like, that person who you regularly feel pretty secure around, they're feeling secure around you, there's a fight.

And I would imagine there's this assumption to say, like, oh, that there's no security, like this was never, this was all an illusion, this is fake. But it doesn't, like conflict doesn't mean that security doesn't mean that there's never any conflict.

No, of course not. You remember I told you the story of the secure person who stormed out, and then come two minutes later. So that's why I have, like in, I think, the last chapter of the book, I have this two rules of secure engagement. And because you really have to understand that attachment has its own logic. It's a very different logic than the logic that we used to. But it's not a very complicated logic.

It's just a different logic, and it's a pre-verbal logic. It's not because attachment formed way before language formed. Like we get attached to our mothers and others. Like we, like, it's just like it's pre-verbal. And so if we understand what the function of a secure relationship is, then that really helps us understand these true rules. So the function of a secure relationship is to keep our, is to regulate our emotions.

Because we are heavily social species. And one of the most powerful ways for us to regulate our emotions is through a connection with a secure person. Because think about if something bad happened to you, I would imagine, unless you're avoidant, but most people, there's like the rest of the 75% of the population, there's usually like, but even avoiding something really bad happened to them. You'll know, there's, like, we have an attachment hierarchy.

You know who's that number one person you're going to go turn to immediately and try to talk to? And then if they're not there, there's probably number two and number three. But we know immediately. And oftentimes, when those people are there for us, sometimes a single word or even just a hug could make us feel better so quickly. There's no like Xanax or Klonopin in this world

that can work as fast because we're like deeply ingrained social species and that's how we feel safe. But on the other hand, insecure attachment interactions are one of the most potent instigators of emotional upset. So attachment really is at the basis of like suffering and healing from suffering. So if we understand that a secure relationship is important to the function of it.

We're both responsible to keep the other person in motion at bay. Then we get into a fight. So based on that, the number one rule is that only one person is allowed to be upset at the time because the other person is, like, their function is to help them, to help the other regular their feelings. So in that example, he got upset and she was like really upset that he left the room. so he decided I'm not going to be upset, I'm going to be responsible,

I'm going to come back and make it better. Only one person is allowed to be upset at the time. It's very hard to maintain. I always say that, knowing that it's almost impossible to maintain because when we attach to other people, we create one physiology. It's very hard to keep that barrier.

Once you feel that someone else is upset, even if they didn't do anything, you get upset too, because the emotions reverberate between us. So, but sometimes what happens is they say, hey, wait a second, there's that rule. I was upset first. You're not supposed to be upset. And a couple of, like, they start laughing about it.

But let's say that didn't work and now both are upset. So the second rule, I call it the Miyakopa rule, like it's my fault. So think about it. If now you're both upset, you both have failed your function of sort of maintaining the other, like, emotional equilibrium. So now, Mia Culp, you both have to apologize

for your role in disrupting the attachment sort of like homeostasis and quiet. And sometimes people try to go, no,

but I was right or there was right. Attachment doesn't care about that. It doesn't care about all the words that come up. Because oftentimes

the words are just concealing something much deeper need for just reassurance and to help me feel better. It's like two cats

on a tree hissing at each other and not knowing how to come down from the tree. Someone needs to come down from the tree and help the other. So that's why, or both need to apologize. You're both responsible.

And it doesn't matter, like, who was right and who was wrong. You can talk about it later once you both have calmed down your attachment system. And oftentimes later, it doesn't even matter so much anymore. Yeah. What are you actually apologizing for in that moment? You're apologizing for, I'm glad that you asked that for not keeping up.

It's almost like a secure connection is you're making a commitment to be consistent, available and responsive. So like to be to take care of the other people's other person's emotions. And if you fail to do it and he's upset and now you're upset and he failed to find a way to keep you less upset, you both hurt sort of that promise to each other, that ability to do the back and forth. And by you both apologizing for not keeping up to that role, then you're actually realizing something much deeper

that it doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong here. There's a deeper role that's much more important of helping each other feel more calm and then things can be worked out much more easily. but if you're like, no, I'm not going to apologize. And sometimes it's not about words. It's about giving a hug. Or it's just like the one really good example.

And I told you, it's not only in romantic relationships. It's like my brother-in-law. He's a very difficult person. And he sometimes says, he's not very difficult. He's actually very nice, but he can say hurtful things to people. And he does it to all of his family. They're a very large family. But one time he said something, he very hurtful to me.

And I got upset. And I got up and I said, you know what? I don't want to stay here. I'm leaving. And he said, oh, I'm so sorry. And he grabbed me. And he's like, it's a big guy. And he hugged me. It's really hard. I was trying to get away, but he wouldn't let me get away. And then he said, I'm sorry. And he hugged me.

And then he just dissipated. The whole upset, because I saw how much he cared. And he's just like, and then, yeah, and he was fine. So sometimes even just like a hug, it's not about only language. And it's advocacy. A lot of it is pre-language. It can make a huge difference. Yeah. But now I'm thinking about opportunities to try these things out, you know, in my own life.

And like you said, not just in an intimate relationship, but with friends, with colleagues, with people that you just work with on a regular basis. I think it's a really interesting sort of thing to explore, to experiment with, especially if you're somebody that feels like you're not getting what you need. You're not getting the feelings that you need. and realizing that there are environmental changes, that there are relational changes, that can actually help you feel what you want to feel

on a more regular basis. Right. And I think one really, another really important thing is that people who have an anxious attachment style often have, I like to say, both the need and the ability for a lot of closeness. And sometimes the one person may not be enough.

Or sometimes, sometimes that's why I think about creating that secure village. We're highly, highly social species, and we're now living like more in the more isolated sort of bubbles. And even just like that one person may not be enough. And it's actually, and I'm glad that you said it takes practice because I really end sort of the book Secure with sort of like the last part is like your secure practice. Right. But it doesn't sound.

What I try to say there? I mean, it's not a bad practice. What's wrong with sort of like making more like secure connections? Like really and sort of and finding. and calling them every area, like, or texting those secure people in your life and getting those sex backs and creating all those amazing security scenes. Like, our brain loves it and we love it. There's nothing difficult about it.

It's actually really a lot of fun. And I think that's why I was thinking a lot lately about this whole research about loneliness and how much do people feel lonely because of lack of connection to others and how much they feel lonely because they are connected insecurely to others, which can really even. instigate a lot of difficult feelings. So it's not enough to just connect to others, like to feel all that sort of like the self-esteem and all those, like it's,

the secure connection is really what makes us open up to the world. Because there's a direct link between attachment and exploratory drive. You see it in children. Like they bring them in the room full of toys. They'll play with all the toys. Everyone wants to say, oh wow, they look at their mom. And then, but their mom is in the background. but the minute the mom leaves the room

and they can't see her anymore, they don't want to play anymore. They become hyper-focused on the mom. So we're as adults, we don't play with toys anymore, but we parent, we have hobbies, we work. And so when we have that secure base, and like when we check those scenes,

check the see, they're there and they're there, then it gives us the freedom to soar. It really makes a huge difference. That makes so much sense to me. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So I always wrap up the same question in this container,

Life Project if I offer up the phrase to live a good life. What comes up? Oh, definitely to live a secure life. Yeah, I would definitely say that. Thank you. Thanks a lot. Hey, before you leave, be sure to tune in next week for an episode with me about what I call the unbusy manifesto and the six daily practices that will help you reclaim your time and your sanity and maybe just your life. Be sure to follow a good life project wherever you get your podcast. so you don't miss any upcoming episodes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez and Troy Young,

Chris Carter crafted our theme music. And of course, if you haven't already done, so please go ahead and follow Good Life Project wherever you get your podcasts. If you found this conversation interesting or valuable and inspiring, chances are you did because you're still here. Do me a personal favor, a seven-second favor and share it with Just one person. If you want to share it with more, hey, that's awesome. But just one person, even then, invite them to talk with you about what you both discover to reconnect and explore ideas that really matter. Because that's how we all come live together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project.