Good Life Project - Sex, Shame, Freedom and Faith | Nadia Bolz-Weber

Episode Date: June 27, 2019

NADIA BOLZ-WEBER (http://www.nadiabolzweber.com/) first hit the New York Times list with her 2013 memoir—the bitingly honest and inspiring Pastrix: The Cranky, Beautiful Faith of a Sinner & Saint followed by the critically acclaimed New York Times bestseller Accidental Saints in 2015. A former stand-up comic and a recovering alcoholic, Bolz-Weber is the founder and former pastor of a Lutheran congregation in Denver, House for All Sinners and Saints. She speaks at colleges and conferences around the globe. Her latest book, Shameless (https://amzn.to/2FpbEzU), is an exploration of sex, gender and faith.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So Nadia Bowles-Weber, my guest today, grew up in Colorado Springs in the late 70s and 80s, which is an interesting time to be there. Brought up in a pretty devoutly religious household, she rebelled against nearly any version of other people's proclamations and rules in her late teens and found herself on her own navigating various worlds, drinking, doing drugs, and finding her way into various jobs, eventually doing stand-up comedy in her 20s and mid-years. All the while, though, she kind of lived with this perpetual deep sense of loneliness, always in search of community and a philosophy of living that felt right to her, that was inclusive, that was steeped in deep wisdom, but welcomed

everybody in. Years later, sitting down with her now with a body covered in tattoos and a deeper sense of both openness and conviction, her search actually ended her back in the Lutheran faith, where she became ordained, then founded and served as the lead pastor at the Lutheran congregation in Denver, House for All Sinners and Saints. And her vision there was to create a place where anyone, including those who'd always felt like outsiders, could come and find a sense of belonging and grace. She had a very unfiltered style, provocative, challenging, non-traditional, and a willingness to tell it like it is that really raised eyebrows. And that was blended with a deep ferocity of commitment and also an even deeper

knowledge and progressive interpretation of scripture. And she drew a huge community of people who'd previously felt pretty much pushed away or left behind by faith. In 2013, Nadia penned a really raw, honest memoir called Pastrix, followed by a critically acclaimed New York Times bestseller, Accidental Saints, in 2015. And just last year, she actually stepped away a decade later from the congregation she founded to explore, I guess, the next leg of her life as more of a writer, a public theologian and speaker.

Her new book, Shameless, is a deep dive exploring the issue of sex and religion, challenging a lot of the core beliefs and teachings and tenets, many long-taught rules, and inviting a real redemption, reconciliation, a reconsideration of the role of sex in life, love, liberation, and faith. Really excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. I grew up with, we had this massive picture window in our house, and it just framed Pikes Peak. Oh, no kidding. So you're literally just laying out in the mountains. Man. So you grew up in, you would have been in Colorado Springs, like, basically late 70s, early 80s.

70s, 80s. I think right after my eighth grade year is when we moved to Denver. Yeah. What was that like back then? It was very different because it was before the religious right, actually. So even though I was raised, like, in this super conservative Christian scene in Colorado Springs, it was before Focus on the Family. It was before the religious right. So they were apolitical. So it's very different than what people think of now. Oh, that's wild. So when did that all start to change then? It started in the

late 70s. Well, I would say in the 80s was when it really took off, when Focus on the Family moved there and sort of took over. And yeah, conservative Christians were not really a political force until the 70s. And then it grew and then it really sort of expanded in the 80s. Right. What was your family's involvement when you were younger? I mean, were they involved at all? Oh, my gosh. In politics or anything political or cultural or social?

Yeah. Nothing. I mean, but we were super involved in the church. And I mean, I went to church three times a week. It's all I knew. And it's interesting because when you're raised fundamentalist and sort of sectarian, you're given dualistic thinking, basically. Tell me, break that down for me. Just like everything's black and white.

You're either in or you're out. You're saved or you're lost. You're good or you're bad. There's no subtlety. There's no gray. It's this very, it's dualism in terms of thinking. And that's what I was raised with. And I thought when I sort of rebelled and left the church that I had left that behind,

but I had not. I mean, it's like you can take the girl out of fundamentalism, but you can't take fundamentalism out of the girl. And so I just replaced it with really, really left, radical leftist politics. So, but with a very dualistic mindset. So it was very much the same. Like you either go to your bad, you either believe these things or you're horrible, you're the enemy. And it took a long time to sort of metabolize the dualism into non-dualistic thinking for me because I was just wired for it. And so, and I left, you know, I'll be 50 in a couple weeks. And I left the church when I was 16. And so, I started House for All Sinners and Saints, the church I pastored for 10 years in Denver.

And it was mostly people who had really conservative religious upbringings like I did, but a lot of people who had just recently come out of it. And one of my parishioners who had recently come out of it was really angry about the conservative Christian upbringing and that scene. And she'd get super triggered by things people from her old church would post online. Like she'd just have to get really reactionary about it. And she goes, you know, Nadia, you don't seem angry anymore about all that. And I go, yeah, I don't think I am. And she said, well, when did you feel free from that? And I hadn't thought about it before, but when I really considered it, I think it was when I looked back on my fundamentalist Christian upbringing, and I was able to not think of it dualistically. When I was able to look back and admitting that there were good things and admitting that there were beautiful things didn't feel like a betrayal of the part of myself that was hurt by the bad things, if that makes sense. So when it

felt safe enough to admit there were actually good things about this thing that mostly hurt me, then I was free from it. Yeah. It sounds like that was more of a process for you than just like wake up one day like, oh, that's it. Yeah, it was a lifetime. I mean, it's interesting too, like the whole idea of dualistic thinking of like there is a discrete definite rule and answer for everything and there are no shades. Because my sense is that as much as, you know, like internally,

we all know that that's not true. We yearn for it to be true because it makes life to a certain extent less free but easier because the answers are just right like the rule is right there like you don't have to think about things you don't have to grapple with nuance it's just like this or that i think it's really more difficult right now though too because um society has changed so much it used to be that the things that were up to our discretion

the things that we got to make choices about were very limited. You know, you didn't choose what religion you were. You didn't choose what type of person you wanted to marry. You didn't choose, a lot of times, what career you went into. So the things that were up to us in terms of choice before were very limited. Now it's limitless. Nothing is really decided for us in some ways. And so, I don't know if you, have you spoken to Esther Perel? Not yet. when we were less free, we were less alone. There was much more cohesion socially. You belong to the... So, like in my religious upbringing, we weren't alone. We really lived life with a community. We cared what was happening in each other's lives. We were in each other's homes on a regular basis. So, I was raised in a really tight-knit community that did not have a lot

of freedom. And she said, when we're less free, we're less alone. And when we're more free, we're more alone. And so I'm like, yeah, but how can we be more free and less alone? This is the thing I'm looking for. It's like, does that have to be the default or is that just the way it's been? Yeah, I know. That's such an interesting question because you almost wonder whether, like I look at every faith tradition and a lot of philosophical traditions and you always see, it's really three things always. So, you know, there's the teacher, there are the large part because they feel such a fierce need to belong to the community that they're willing to go along with it? Or is it the community, like, which comes first?

Right. The interesting thing is the House for All Sinners and Saints, the church I started, that belief was and is not the basis of belonging there. So I'm not terribly invested in what people believe in that church. I'm very invested in what they hear. Like I feel responsible for what they hear and that the central message of the church is one of grace. That was really important to me. But what people believed, like as the leader, as you said, there's the three things as the leader. I was just super clear that what people believe is determined by all kinds of

things I have no control over. So why would I feel any responsibility for it? So how they're going to be affected by the message that they receive is out of my hands. And so but I wanted the message to be really clear. And you know what's fascinating about that community? I feel like I've had to reverse engineer it. You know what I mean? What happened here? In order to be able to speak about it, as people have asked me to do, I had to reverse engineer something I created to understand it. And one of the things I realized was that

it's a very loving community. They really show up in each other's lives in profound ways, and they love each other well. And the interesting thing about that is that we never really talk about love. And so I think that the reason, if you look at it, you go, wow, these people love each other well, is because love wasn't the focus. I think some things happen only as a result of focusing on other things. But as Americans, we want to be very direct about it. We want to just go at it head on and say, what's our goal and what are the steps to get to the goal? And yet sometimes, oddly, the thing that we kind of want only happens if we focus on something else. And because I think if the main message of that church was love and not grace, I think love would become an accusation.

I think then people would be constantly referencing, how am I not loving someone well? Was that thing that person did loving or not loving? It's this way of assessing ourselves and other people. And it can become an accusation against how we are with each other. And it can be this thing that we're always falling short of. It's like a source of shame. A source of shame. But when the focus absolutely is grace for us and for other people,

what are you going to accuse people of, right? And that's such a, grace is just something that a lot of people don't talk about. It's not a focus because we like to be able to control things. We like to be able to take the steps to get to the goal. And with grace, it doesn't work like that. And so it feels a little slippery because if it's not in our hands, and also if it's free, it must be worthless in our American mindset. And yet, I really think that because we focus on grace, it allowed people to be free to love each other well without having to look over their shoulders. That's so interesting. It feels in similar ways to sort of like what some research is showing around

the pursuit of happiness these days, which is there's been a bit of a maniacal sort of like body of work and effort to say like what are the steps to happiness and like how do we get ourselves to happy? And increasingly the research is actually showing that the more you directly pursue it, the less happy you get. And happiness ensues sort of like as the side, the fringe benefit of meaning and relationships and all these other things. Well, it's like people on their social media profiles, if they ever say,

I like to have fun, I'm like, you know, with certainty, that is not a fun person to hang out with, right? It's more that they've observed other people having fun and they think that would be nice, right? And yet they've never been capable of it. And so it's, I mean, when things are super self-conscious like that, it's very problematic. In the same way, I was in comedy for years and it's very difficult to talk about comedy and have it be funny, right? Things are either funny or they're not. Talking about if something's funny or not is never funny. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So we kind of jumped way ahead. And we're going to come back there because there's so much to talk about in the present moment. But I just want to fill in some of the gaps here. So we know that you came up in Colorado Springs. You were part of

a sort of very dualistic thinking family and tradition and then kind of left it all behind. Was there something that happened or was it a gradual awakening? I think it was both. Anybody who's raised in kind of a bubble doesn't know that they're in a bubble, right? Until they start tiptoeing out a bit and seeing what's outside of it. And so it took me a while to realize there were things outside of it. But I think when what I was told to believe bumped up against what I was experiencing in the reality of my life, things became very wobbly for me. So when I would experience, for instance, the fact that there were these two or three gay guys in my high school who thought I was fabulous and no one else

did and who loved me and I loved them and it was incredible, that was hard because I had been told that homosexuality is a sin and it's against God's will and all of the things I was told, those did not seem to match what I call just actual reality, right? So then what did I do? It was this dissonance that's created. And so there was enough dissonance that sort of built up where I was like, I can't have anything to do with this. It's a critical mass. Yeah, it's a critical thing. So then I left, but also at the same time, I was developing a pretty juicy chemical dependency problem. So those things went a bit hand in hand. Yeah. How old was this then? Like

late teens? Yeah. I mean, I started drinking and using drugs when I was, I think, 15. And so, and I just knew right away it was for me. I mean, it was very clear that this was my path as soon as I started ingesting substances. It wasn't a very slow build. Yeah. So it sounds like when you decide that you're done, like you're really done, at least very slow build. Yeah. So it sounds like when you decide that you're done, like you're really done, at least for the moment. Yeah. I guess with conservative Christianity, when I was done, I was done. And then when I was done drinking and doing drugs, I was also done, done. Yeah. And it's like the pendulum doesn't seem to swing like slightly off with you. It swings to the other side. No, no, No, I don't do anything a little bit. Yeah.

I have two speeds. Go and stop. What is the opposite of this? Go and stop. Yeah. So you just find yourself in a completely different world. I mean, but were you close with your family before then? What do you mean? Meaning, so you, like what you were referencing before, a lot of what tends to happen around faith is community, but also family. Like there's, you want those bonds, those connections. And when you make a choice that this approach to life isn't for me, but a lot of the family and the relationships are built around that. Right. You know, very often it's not just a choice to leave a tradition. You know, that also means to a certain extent, either leaving or being

exiled from a family. And if you're really close to that, it's brutal. Yeah. I mean, I was very, I was definitely estranged from my family for years. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I also totaled a couple of their cars and stole some shit. So it's not like there was no reason for it. Yeah. I mean, there, there was a time where it was, I think they just realized it probably was not terribly healthy for them to be overly involved in my life. And it's just really painful to watch your child destroy themselves. Where do you go from that point? Um, well, I mean, I, the weird thing about my, so much of my life has been defined by this Christian upbringing I had, whether it was rejecting it or, or writing about it or what, I mean, in so many ways, it's been defined by it because when I look back, in some way, I tried to recreate the community aspect of the way I was raised my whole life. I've tried doing that. I've created little

communities everywhere I've gone. And I left my church in July, so I'm not a part of House for All Sinners and Saints anymore. I managed to leave while they still loved me, which as the founder feels like a great victory. It's better to leave a month too early than a day too late, you know? But now I'm like going like, how do people meet people? Like where do you get community? Like I'm just sort of wandering around a bit puzzled now. And I literally started a book club at my yoga studio just so I knew who the people were who I was practicing yoga next to. I'm like, do you guys want to come hang out at my apartment? I mean, I've written like three bestsellers. I have a sort of fan base. There are all these people who'd be like,

love to hang out with me, quote unquote. And I'm this person who's like trying to find friends like the people people who follow me or like my fans or whatever that's not relational you know it's it's um it's very different so it's just ironic being somebody who all these people have this like oh I'd love to meet her type of thing but really I'm kind of like going around my yoga studio, you know, introducing myself to people so I know their names, because I'm just desperate for community. And part of me is like, where's my Nadia Bolzweber? Like, where's the woman who's like pouring a decade of her life into starting a community I'd feel comfortable showing up to? I mean, when you're like, social entrepreneur in that or a spiritual entrepreneur in that way, if you're not creating a thing, it's hard to find a place to belong.

Yeah. No, I think that's a huge thing, especially if you're doing something in a way that nobody else really does it or understands what you're doing. It's incredibly lonely. Like you just said, whether you're a social entrepreneur, I mean, even within the world of entrepreneurship, the social entrepreneurs are the people who are heart-centered or mission-driven are considered to a certain extent kind of freaked by the rest of the VC back, like scale and grow and exit. Oh yeah. There's no money in my thing. So it's interesting because you're kind of like, and then, but it is interesting that, you know, there's this sort of like perpetual quest for a community that seems to be riding along with you everywhere you go. And yet you keep on building it and then breaking it.

Yeah. Well, yeah, in a way. But also the thing is, is when I started, what I've wanted my whole life more than anything, I mean, is this desire to be part of a group of friends. Like, I have amazing individual friendships, but to be part of a group of friends is something I've always craved in my life and just not had a great deal. And so when I started House for All Sinners and Saints, the original people who were hanging out, they were around my age and they were just fun. It was these, like, gay couples. And I had a blast hanging out with them. And there was a point where one of them, the biggest stressor in my life as the founder of the church was when people wouldn't show up. It was almost like every Sunday I was throwing at church,

I was throwing my own birthday party and waiting to see who liked me enough to show up. And then I'd be like, oh, it's not even supposed to be about me. It's supposed to be about God. And then I'd feel worse, you know? And it was so stressful if people, because I could do so much. Like I could have coffee with everyone and do pastoral care and plan the events and do all this stuff. But if they didn't put their ass in the chair for one hour on Sunday nights, you know, like I couldn't do that. That was something they had to do. And I get this attitude like it was hard. But anyway, so one of the people who I was in this like kind of friend group with the original group of people who were like a group of friends.

And I was like, this is great. And I'm having so much fun. She stopped coming to church. So now she was part of this dynamic that was so stressful for me. And yet I couldn't go, hey, it hurts my feelings you don't come to church because I'm the pastor. I couldn't do it, right? And I have a spiritual director who I've seen every month for years and years. And I was in her office telling her about this. And it was this realization I had where I was like, oh, this community I started, it's not for me. It's not for me, it's for them.

And there was this thing where I realized that I struggled with it. And I took a month to just sit in the knowledge of that because on some level, I was treating it like it was for me. And when I realized that was not the right thing to do, I was like, what if I only phone it in now? What if I'm not as passionate? What if I can't work as hard at this knowing it's not for me and it's only for them. And I sat with that for a month and then I met with my spiritual director again and I looked at her and I said, I'm all in and I know it's for them and it's not for me. And in some ways, that's the day I became the pastor of that church. It was this very clear demarcation for me. But sometimes the thing that really motivates us is creating for other people the thing we didn't have. Like if there's some need that went unmet in us, we can't go back and have it met, but we can heal it by providing it for someone else in some ways. And I think that's what I was doing on some level. Yeah. I guess my curiosity, on the one hand, I'm nodding along saying, yeah, I get that.

On the other hand, I'm wondering, the day after you make that decision, you're like, oh, hell yeah, I'm in and I get what this is about and I'm completely of service. I'm building the container for these amazing human beings to coexist. And I will participate sort of on a certain level.

But at that moment, you're also realizing, but this is not my, like, this is not the community which is intended to satisfy my need and yearning for belonging, which kind of puts you back in that same place. It's like you have a huge flock. Oh my God. And then, but then on an individual level,

then you're like Moses on the edge of the land of milk and honey, the promised land, his ass spent 40 years taking these mumblers and complainers through the wilderness to the promised land. And there was some confusion in the story about a rock and a stick and God and whatever, it doesn't matter, but he wasn there was some confusion in the story about a rock and a stick and God and whatever. It doesn't matter. But he wasn't allowed to go in. And so he's standing on the edge. They're frolicking in the land of milk and honey.

And he's waving from the other side like, enjoy it. That's what it felt like. But and yet it was okay. I mean, I got it. I was like, this is my work and it's beautiful work. And the fact that other people get a lot out of it, it's good. Yeah. But then how do you solve for that need for yourself at that point?

I haven't met for the first time in my life, I'd say. There is a group of friends that I'm a part of, but we're scattered across the country. But three of them were at my gig in Philadelphia last night. So when we get moments together, we soak them up. And it's 12 women and one gay Chinese guy. And we're all in religious leadership in some way. And we have matching tattoos that say wild and holy. And we call each other the hedge of protection.

And it's extremely diverse. I mean, racially, especially, very diverse, denominationally, whatever. But we made a decision several years ago to be for each other, because especially as sort of more public people in the work that we do, we decided we would never make ourselves small for each other so that each other could handle us. Do you know what I mean? Especially women who are really powerful, a lot of times have to make ourselves smaller so that we're not intimidating or off-putting to others. And we just made the promise, you never have to make yourself smaller. You never have to downplay an accomplishment with us. And you also never have to be stronger than you actually are with us.

Like, you don't have to pretend to be stronger, and you don't have to pretend to be smaller. And if something is good for one of us, it's good for all of us. And if something's hard for one of us, it's hard for all of us. And we are not each other's competition. It's a lie of the patriarchy that women are each other's competition. And so we thought we will always defy that and support each other in every way we can. And it's changed my life. It's just been extraordinary having them. We have a very active group text.

And we have a retreat every December together, and we try and see each other anytime we can. I think it's so important. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.

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Because it feels like that's the glue. You know, it's like, was that a specific, I mean, was that sort of a conversation that, that, you know, with all of you that said, okay, so this is what we believe and this is, these are our promises or just kind of evolved. No. And also my church has never had a mission statement. We've never had a vision statement. We never had a five-year plan. All the things that people try and nail down for, to be successful is just never been part of the equation with us and with this group either. I mean, I think it was just being present in each other's lives in every way we possibly can was our shared. Now, it all started, we all kind of met each other because of an event that I put

on with another woman named Rachel Held Evans. And it was probably four or five years ago we started this thing where we looked at each other and we said, what's the most honorable thing we can do with the fact that a lot of people seem to be listening to us right now? And we agreed that the most honorable thing to do with that, whatever power that was, was to share it as broadly as possible. So we put on an event that people bought tickets to because it was Rachel and I, but the speakers were women or gender non-binary people who did not have the platform we did in terms of speaking and writing, but we thought they should. And so we wanted to

leverage what we had to bring other people up. And so the origin of the friendships in this group, the Hedge of Protection, was that they were all speakers over the first or second year at this event, and that's how we all met each other. So that's the origin of that group. What was the actual origin of the church? So when you come back, when you decide, okay, so I'm back, but under my terms. We know that it was about grace. What else? What else mattered to you at that point when you're like, okay, I'm stepping back in? What was important?

That people would be able to show up as their whole selves, I don't feel that comfortable in churches, honestly. One of the only churches I feel comfortable in is the one that meets in the women's prison in Denver. So I worship there sometimes, but generally I don't feel comfortable in churches because it feels like I have to culturally commute from who I am to who the church is. And I'm not going to do it. And so it was a space where people could come as is with their whole story, all their quirky humor, whatever it was. Like we wanted them as whole people. That was a sort of non-negotiable.

I think one of the main principles of the church is that we are anti-excellence, pro-participation. So meaning in religion, I just don't think that excellence as a virtue has any place in a spiritual community. I think it can be a really toxic value to hold. And it's one that comes more from corporate culture than I think from religious tradition. And it's when I think when religious traditions start absorbing things that didn't belong to them and it becomes problematic. So anyway, so we said, look, we don't it doesn't matter that things are done well. As the as the leader, I had to do a lot of work to go, hey, if something's lumpy in the liturgy, if something

doesn't go well, if something kind of makes me cringe a little bit, that's not a reflection on my value as a human. So I had to let go of, oh, everything that happens here is a reflection of my value. I had to have enough self-awareness to let that go and to be a non-anxious presence in the room, even if things aren't going well. So the culture there became, hey, we want everyone's voice, not just the ones that are trained to do the things well. So when people would walk in, they would have the worship booklets that would have, there'd be 15, 18 of them set aside that have all the leadership jobs. So doing the prayer of the day and serving

communion and being the assisting minister at the Eucharist and doing the benediction, all of these things that normally would just be the priest's job, they are on the table and the person greeting, as soon as you walk in says, would you like to do one of the leadership roles in the liturgy? So literally, you could not have ever been in a Christian liturgy in your entire life, and you're asked, do you want to read the gospel? Do you want to stand behind the altar and help with communion? So we trust you with the holy things literally just because you walked in the door. That's the only qualification we need is that you're here.

So we didn't need people to do things well. We just wanted all the people to do all the things. Was part of your why because this was the place that you had always been looking for and it didn't exist? So you're almost creating it not just for yourself but for others? No question. Absolutely no doubt about it. And subsequently it made me a bit of an outsider among clergy because most clergy have to fit into some kind of box to do their job. So when I'm on the road and doing, I don't call it Q&A, now I just call it Q&O because I don't have any answers, but I have like a lot of opinions. So it just felt more

honest. You can expect opinions, but not answers. It's a Q&G. Can you guess? I guess, exactly. I don't know. Spitball. But I will always get a question from seminarians saying, hey, I'm about to enter the parish or I'm about to go into this work. And do you have any suggestions? How can I stay true to myself and do this job? And I'm like, how can you do the job if you can't stay true to yourself? But most clergy do. They have to fit into some role or some box. And I didn't have to do that. So I showed up as myself. And it created a space where other people felt totally safe showing up as themselves.

So it made me a little bit of an outsider among a lot of clergy who have a struggle I didn't have to because I created my job. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm basically unemployable when it comes down to it. If I don't create something, there will be no work for me to do. I mean, was the main thing that sort of created the difference between you and the rest of a lot of that world that you didn't fit into the box, or were you also saying and sharing and viewing things differently? I don't know how much it was me being different in that way. I mean,

especially in the Lutheran world, because what makes somebody a Lutheran is a shared theology. Lutheran theology is very distinct from other Christian theologies. Like what makes somebody an Episcopalian is a shared prayer book, right? I mean, there are different things that sort of build the identity in these different traditions. And so, I'm a very, very Orthodox Lutheran theologian. And so, even my candidacy committee in my bishop's office that was deciding whether I would get ordained while I was in seminary and going through that process and doing the meetings and the evaluations, people would be like, what did your canister committee think of you?

You know, because, well, you know, I have sleeve tattoos and I swear like a truck driver and all that stuff. And I was like, well, frankly, they wish all of the candidates were as orthodox theologically as I am. So, because they trusted me as a theologian, they never questioned me as a practitioner. So I can't say that I had differing views theologically than my colleagues. It was just I had the luxury of 100% being myself. I didn't have to like not talk about certain subjects or to keep people happy or whatever. Yeah. So it was more like shared beliefs with different presence and that was okay. A different, yeah. And also, you know, my preaching style is just very focused on like self-incrimination basically. So it's all I have to offer is like bad examples from my own

life. It's like just, it's all I've ever really done. But my congregation's like, man, we love that we have a pastor who's clearly preaching to herself and just letting us overhear it. Like to them, it was very invitational, that style of preaching, as opposed to being the person who from, you know, some lofty position is doling out the wisdom that they have, you know, acquired in their life. It's more like, man, let me just be super honest about the things I struggle with. And then people just sort of exhale and go, oh my gosh, yeah, I do that, you know? Like the only reason I ever admit these things about myself is to create a space around me that's safe enough for other people to step into and consider those things for themselves. So it's a form of leadership I

call, screw it, I'll go first. I'll just say the thing and we'll see how this goes. Yeah. But I think it also acknowledges that there tends to be a dynamic in any faith tradition, any spiritual tradition, in any educational tradition tradition where you have that one person who's like, I know everything and I I'm basically a long side next to you. I just happen to have done a whole bunch of studying to understand some of this stuff. Right, right, right. That you lose credibility and you lose authority and that people won't show up anymore

to join you in this journey. And it's like the way that you've approached it is really interesting, kind of like, quote, case study of the exact opposite. Right. Yeah, I'm like a spiritual anti-hero. Not an example of how to be good, you know? I mean, if I'm an example of anything, it's like what it looks like to be really in need of grace. And then to be able to say how powerful grace is because of that. So have you read that book, Mistakes Were Made But Not By Me? No.

Oh, my gosh. Well, read it with caution because it messed with me. It was about self-justification. It was written by social psychologists about how self-justification works in ourselves and in our culture and politics and everything. And they did have a chapter that said, you know, because once you kind of make a mistake or make a bad call, you have to kind of double down on it. You don't then just sort of course correct right away, right? Because you're going to lose authority. So then if somebody says, even mentions, well, that doesn't feel like that

was a good idea, you can't handle it. There's dissonance in our brains, right? We can't handle two ideas that don't go together. And so if we have the idea we're a good leader and we make a bad choice, we have to go with we're a good leader. So if we're a good leader, it means, well, maybe the choice was good, and now I have to figure out how do I sell it as good, right? You see it all the time. And you back it up with more choices. That's right. That's right.

Yeah. And same with police and with politicians. I mean, you just see it everywhere. But they were giving these examples of leaders of corporations or leader of an airline or whatever who just said, I made a mistake. I'm taking responsibility. And their careers didn't collapse. It's actually I think people ended up respecting them more. Because here's the thing about our mistakes.

You know, a lot of times people see them. You know what I mean? And if you just go, I made a mistake, then they're like, hey, oh my gosh, I appreciate that. And then they're willing to go, okay, well, what's next? Whereas if you go, it wasn't a mistake, they're like, okay, now you made a mistake and you're lying. Right, and I disrespect you. I can't respect you anymore. I mean, it's the basis of a lot of Brene Brown's work, right? It's like about stepping to that place of vulnerability and how it actually enhances rather than diminishes leadership and the ability to lead.

But I mean, fundamentally, it's the hardest thing for us to say is, I don't know. Or yeah, I screwed that up. I was wrong. Yeah, but I think it's actually a mark of incredible confidence to be able to do it. It doesn't bother me to say, I don't know something. Somebody uses a word I don't know. I'm like, I don't know that word. Like, I'm actually confident enough

to be unbothered by not knowing things. And also I want to know things I don't know. Like, why would you avoid that to appear to know it already? Yeah, I totally agree. When you start to, so the path sort of like goes into, you start your own thing in Denver. You're building this, really kind of navigating your role and being radically different than so many other people, not only in the Lutheran tradition, but also just in general and in sort of like all forms of Christianity. I'm not good with religion, so tell me if I'm screwing this up.

So far, so good. Okay. You get to a point where you're also a writer, clearly. And you're like, what would it feel like if I actually just sort of like sat down and started to share the details of what got me to certain places in my life with it out there? What was the compulsion behind saying, okay, it's the time to do this? To write books? Yeah. Oh, well, the first one, I've written four, and the first one is not in any way an important piece of work. And I think up to three or four dozen people have bought this book. But I was in seminary, and my family has never had much money.

My ex-husband, myself, and my two children, we lived on less than $40,000 a year our whole lives. And I was in seminary. I was blogging. And the Episcopal Publishing House, Church Publishing, said, hey, would you watch 24 consecutive hours of Christian television and write a book about it? And I said, well, are you going to pay me? And they said, yeah. And it was nothing. It's not nothing, but it was $4,000 advance. And I was like, well, are you going to pay me? And they said, yeah. And it was nothing. It was, it's not nothing, but it was $4,000 advance. And I was like, yes, because we really, really needed a new furnace. And so the reason I wrote the first book, to be honest, is because I needed a new furnace. Not the best reason to write a book.

But also not the worst reason. But it's literally the one. There was a clear purpose for this. I just, and then when I wrote my first memoir, Pastrix, it was, I was paid a lot of money for that one to me. And I was shocked by that. But the motivation was, I think I might not be the only one out there who has these kinds of stories and who's thought these kinds of things. And so, the motivation was, it was an olly olly income-free for the other people out there who might have this weird relationship to Christianity and believe that Christianity is like this really

revolutionary thing about grace and mercy and forgiveness and about how the thing you think is going to save you is actually killing you. And the thing that you think will kill you is actually going to save you. You know, there's so many inverted sort of ideas in it about the first shall be last and the last shall be first. And if you want to find your life, you have to lose it and pray for your enemies and forgive those who persecute you. I mean, just all this stuff, you're like, oh, that doesn't sound right to me. And so it was really sort of to say, hey, there's this other way to see it, and it's so

beautiful. Because I think that there are a lot of people out there. So, okay, you know, I heard there's more Jamaicans who don't live in Jamaica than who live in Jamaica, right? And I think the same is true of people who are into Jesus or Christians, right? I think there are a lot more people who are really kind of into Jesus than there are people in churches. And what I found in people who talk to me about their religious upbringings and their identity as a spiritual person all the time, and I have not found anybody who's like, well, I was raised Christian, but there was this day that came where I was like, I just feel like that Jesus guy just doesn't have much to offer. Like, that has never been the story. People are always like, there was this hypocrisy in the church, or there was all this anti-gay stuff, and that didn't make sense with the Jesus thing. It was like the trappings in the culture built around.

Correct. It's almost like people aren't leaving Christianity because they don't believe in it. I think people are leaving Christianity because they believe in it so deeply that they can't stomach being part of an organization that says it's about it and clearly is not. So I think I was sort of writing for those people which seems like i mean if the research is right that's sort of like the largest group of people right now are what are being classified as the nuns meaning like yeah like they're they believe that to them to be spiritual people but they're not affiliated with a particular congregation or tradition because they're just like i don't where do i what nothing feels quite right anymore exactly but it's tradition because they're just like, I don't, where do I, nothing feels quite right anymore.

Exactly. But it's not that they're uninterested in prayer or uninterested in spiritual community or in spiritual practices or in marking the year in a certain way. You know, oddly, I'm speaking at like wellness conferences now, which I couldn't exactly tell you how that happened. But I think one aspect of wellness is what's the relationship we have to our original symbol system, the one that formed us.

And I get why a lot of people need to step away from the religion they were raised in. I get that 100%. But it's a very recent idea in human history that you can just choose your symbol system, you know? And really, it forms us in ways that are somewhat inescapable. And so I understand needing to reject it or walk away for it. A lot of times that's for reasons of self-preservation, but I also think there can be an integration and a wholeness in reintegrating it back into our lives in a way that feels okay. Maybe it's that prayer your mom said before you went to sleep every night and sort of going, I think I want to say that to my kids too.

Or maybe it's going, I think I'm going to buy an Advent wreath and just be aware that there's four weeks in Advent right before Christmas again. Or whatever it is, sort of making friends with this thing that is still within us on terms that aren't going to hurt us can be a beautiful project. Yeah, it's like a coming home, but you choose how to decorate the house. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, I think that's right. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need him.

Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. I mean, it's interesting also, like, going back to the beginning of our conversation about, I think so many people who are brought up in a heavily faith-based tradition,

it is very often, especially if it's an orthodox version of it, regardless of what it is, it's very heavily dualistic and rule-based. And you get into life and you realize at a certain point that for most people, especially if you want to live outside of the community in which you were brought up, that the rest of the world actually is all gray, is all shades, is shades is complex is nuanced and the rules that got you here ain't gonna get you there right and it's like okay so let me go i need to go and live in that world i feel compelled to i want to so i kind of have to leave behind these things right but at some point like you said that there's this there's like an imprint on us that keeps calling us back in some way shape or form but it's like you have to like the challenge is us that keeps calling us back in some way, shape or form. But it's like, you have to like the challenges,

how do I rediscover it in a way that lets me step back into it? And just like you said, like you, you reached a point in your life where you're like, oh, I can now look at back, look back at this and see the nuance. Yeah.

That there's some beautiful things. Yeah. Like how do I do that? So it's interesting. Cause I see what, what you've done is sort of like provided that path back to so many people who couldn't figure it out themselves. Correct. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Also, so I'm in recovery.

So I've been clean and sober for 27 years. And I, you know, I'm still part of 12-step community. I go to meetings. I have a sponsor, the whole deal. And in the big book of Alcoholics Anonymous, it says, be quick to see where religious people are right. Like, it's like, look, we get there are so many problems, but that doesn't mean there's not some usable wisdom here, right? And so, I think my next book is going to be about what are those things that are going to be that are usable for people? Let's not be so quick to throw it all out.

And oddly, ironically, the thing I think is the most useful and the thing people do not want to hear about and just are so turned off by is what Christian thought has always called sin. Because I think it's been pawned off in exactly the wrong way to go. It's like this list of naughty behaviors. And if you do those, you're a sinner. Instead of, there's a state of being a human that we all live in that has a problematic

aspect to it, right? There's a guy named Francis Spufford who wrote a book called Unapologetic. It's the best book about Christianity I've ever read. I read it every year. And he gets like, that word sin's a problem. So he goes, I'm not going to use that word. And so for the rest of the book, when I kind of want to use that word, I'm going to say this phrase instead. He calls it the human propensity to fuck things up. Now, who's going to be like, I don't have that, but you know what? That guy has it, right? Because our drug of choice as human beings is knowing who we're better than.

We eat that shit up. Now, that fashions itself in endless variety. You know, liberals, we know who we're better than. You know, conservative people know who they're better than. Christians know who they're better than. You know, pretty people know who they're better than, whatever it is. And so, the great human sorting extravaganza that's always going on, and we need to know who we're better than. And so that instinct within us, that's just part of the human propensity to fuck things up. And so in the sort of wellness scene, and I practice yoga, I'm very devoted to this practice. And yet in that scene, I don't hear anybody taking seriously or even really addressing the human propensity to fuck things up. It's just a font of affirmation all the time.

And that's okay. And it serves a function on some level. But the transformation that's available when all it is is affirmation is limited. And so I'm like, well, where do we see real trans, true human transformation happening? The transformation of the human heart. We see it in like 12-step programs, right? People actually, their lives are actually radically changed. You know why? The 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous, you know what it takes very seriously? The human propensity to fuck things up. It does not shy away from it. But it's not just alcoholics and drug addicts who have this problem about the human propensity. This is human across the board. Our problem is just it's very conspicuous, right? It's obvious. But we're all addicted to people and praise and poison and possessions and a million other things.

And so I'm interested in if we're going to talk about transformation, spiritual growth, enlightenment, whatever, to me, it always has to be able to address that reality of human beings. Yeah. So important. It's funny. So I have a background. I have a past life in the yoga world. I owned a studio and I taught for about seven years. And I was the teacher who would show up and beat up all the routines, not where I actually, I earned the rips in my jeans. And like a young, grungy old t-shirt. And I was cracking jokes, dropping F-bombs and knocking people over just to get them to just stop striving so much. Oh, my God. My favorite yoga teacher will say, try less hard.

All right. I was like, I always wanted to do a class that was just called bad yoga. Yes. Okay. Let's just do like the worst possible versions of everything we can imagine and love it and just let go of being, because I agree there's so much aspiration and there's so much, everything needs to be positive and everything needs to be framed in the positive. And let's not look at that other side of life because then it may manifest itself as real rather than saying,

oh no, it is real. Right. Right. It's real out there, it's real in here. Let's just deal with it. The optimization of every aspect of our lives is impossible. Right. It's like, let's just own it, step into it and grapple with it. I love that idea. As we sit here in the studio right now, you're actually in New York City because actually tonight is the final night of a long cross-country tour for you and your new book, Shameless. So this book, you know, clearly you love to challenge a lot of things, the status quo. Tell me what this is about and why this book and why now. Well, I think there's kind of two reasons for the book for me on a personal level. One's very personal and one is more professional.

So I'll start with the professional one was that, you know, pastoring House for All Sinners and Saints for 10 years, I just was privy to a lot of hurt in people's lives because of what the church told them about sex and sexuality and gender and bodies. And it just sort of, I accumulated all these stories from people's lives. And I thought, somebody's got to talk about this. And then on a really very deeply personal level, I'm ordained in one of the more liberal denominations in the country. We ordain the ladies and the gays, right? So pretty progressive, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America. But I had to sign a document when I was ordained that said I'd be faithful in marriage or celibate in singleness. Now, I was married at the time, and so I didn't really think about it. I was okay with being faithful.

But I've been divorced for a few years now from a very good man who, like, we had no lawyers in the divorce or anything. There was no acrimony. He's a lovely human. But we never connected with each other in the way that either of us needed. I kept thinking it would happen. It never happened. And so the effect it had on me to be in a marriage without physical or emotional intimacy of any kind was it affected me in a really deep way. And it just shut down

parts of me. And it affected me in a negative way in terms of being a pastor. And in terms of being a public theologian, I was extremely protective of myself. And, you know, I did a lot of CrossFit during this time in my life. And I'm very short hair. And anyway... Pre-yoga. during this time in my life. And I'm very short hair. And anyway. Pre-yoga. Yes. This was definitely pre-yoga. But it had a negative impact. And then when we got divorced and I started seeing my boyfriend and I was connecting with somebody in this really deep way physically and emotionally, it felt good. I was like, this is so good for my brain and my body and my spirit. And anybody who knows me just knows I'm so much softer of a person now. And it made it easier to be on the

road and to take care of other people because I was being loved well, and I was having sex, and I had this emotional connection to another human being. And so when I was in violation of the document, it was better for me as a pastor. And when I was technically adhering to the document, it was harming me. It was bad. And so we had gotten together and then I had to go on a book trip in Europe because the UK and the German edition of my last book had come out. So we were together a couple of weeks and then I was on the road for three and a half weeks and all this stuff was swirling in my head. And I was walking through London and I'm like, hold on, why the hell did the church make me sign something saying I wouldn't

do this? Like, how is it better for my congregation if I'm not getting laid? This makes no sense to me. And my partner is not, he's not Christian, but I was like, I messaged him and I was like, could you hop on Skype? I have to ask you something right now. And it was really with an unwarranted urgency that I was asking this question. But I said, why do you think that for so long the church has tried to control sex? And without skipping a beat, Eric said, I guess I always assumed that the church saw sex as its competition. And I went, oh, I'm writing a book. Oh, fuck that.

I couldn't tell you exactly what it meant, and I knew it was true. And so I was like, I got to figure this out. So I spent a year and a half interviewing my parishioners and saying, what message did you receive about sex and gender and the body and sexuality from church? And how did that message affect you in your life? And how have you navigated your adult life? And I really excavated my own story deeply to look at that as well. And the book is a result of that. I'm like, the premise is like that we should never be more loyal to an idea or a doctrine or an interpretation of a Bible verse than we are to people. Like if the teachings of the church are hurting people, and it is the church of Jesus, we have to rethink those teachings. Whereas usually the church

doubles down on the teachings, this is what the United Methodist Church did this week. This week they did it. Like, here's all the harm. Because my thing is, I think the starting point for any theologian or pastor or preacher should be actual reality. You start with that, and then given the actual reality in people's lives, their actual hearts and hurts and joys and frustrations and pain, and you start with that, and then you dive into the tradition and the liturgy and the scripture to find something that can speak to it.

Whereas the other way of doing things is to say, you start with the doctrine and then you ignore actual reality in favor of being right about this doctrine. I can't do that. And the church has done it for a long time. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. As you sort of lay it out that way, where my mind is going in an even pastoral life than yoga teacher, I was a lawyer.

Actually, lawyer and theologian is a very similar discipline. And it's interesting, too, because what you're effectively saying is, okay, so there's the law, which is designed to create a certain behavior in people, and it intersects with that person's reality in real life. But when there's a conflict, when there's the ambiguity in the law, you know, like what this thing should be that we would all follow in the world. But is there any record where I can actually go back and understand what was the deeper intent behind this? And how does that intersect with this behavior in the world? But then on what level do you decide the intent?

Because if the intent is liberty, and yet that's the deeper sort of idea behind it is liberty and freedom. And yet the intent of the drafter was that white property-owning men have liberty and freedom. Which do you go with? Do you go with the deeper idea? So that's what I'm trying to go with the deeper idea. So that's what I'm trying to go with the deeper idea. And that's where things get really screwed up because it's always the intent of the person who drafted the thing. Because how do you get past that to the deeper idea?

Like what is the direct line from you to the deeper idea? Right. But the interesting thing is you look at how this is applied both constitutional originalism and biblical fundamentalism are applied very similar ways because it's camouflage. I mean, I just don't know how many black female jurists are constitutional originalists, right? I've not seen that very often. And the reason is because most constitutional originalists are, again, property-owning white men who go, hey, look, it's not me.

It's the intent of the framers. And the same goes with the Bible. With fundamentalists, they point to these verses and they go, it's not me. It's God. This is God's plan. This is God's will. It just so happens that it benefits me. I'm like, that feels like bullshit. It's all the same. It's all the same. And so I think with scripture and liturgy and theology to go, what's the big idea that we can draw upon instead of what's the letter of the law we can draw upon? Because if you think of it, though people want to use the Bible as this like, instead of this library with different perspectives and genres that offers kinds of a beautiful wisdom within it, in its central heart, they go, oh no, God wrote it, and it has all the answers we need. And it's this thing, which is a bizarre way for me, I think, to treat the Bible,

because you come, it's like a magic eight ball, and you shake it, you know, and it gives you the answer. And so it's like, is God okay with me having sex with my fiancé before we're married? And they go, well, let me check the book God wrote. And they open this huge volume and they consult a Levitical code from 4,000 years ago from a nomadic people in the Near East to say whether the God of the universe is okay with you having sex with your boyfriend in 2019. That is an insane way to use the Bible to me. Yeah. I mean, it's, they're really, I mean, there are such strong parallels there.

It's almost like, you know, if you, if you led with a question, which was something like, you know, what is, what is the compassionate and grace-filled idea of the expression? What is the compassionate, grace-driven expression of the idea? What would that look like? Right. And then see where that leads you. Because at the end of the day, it's all about improving the human condition. And actually, I think looking at the way the law itself functions, civil law like that, is a very interesting thing for people who are really into spiritual and religious law to look at it.

Because a lot of spiritual and religious law is looked at as, how can I know I'm good? How can I know who I'm better than? And how can I know that I'm good? And I'm like, I don't think that's the point. Because like I was told all these rules, because being Christian when you're really conservative is about not doing certain things. There's a whole list of things you don't do if you're Christian, right? And most of them are pleasurable things, to be honest. But I was told, look, the Ten Commandments and all the rules in the Bible, they're there because God loves you and wants you to be happy. It sure seems like God doesn't love

you because you don't get to do all the fun, pleasurable things normal people do. But if you follow this law, you will be happy. It's God's plan. It's because God loves you and wants you to be happy. And then I go to Lutheran seminary and they're like, oh, no, that's bullshit. No, no, no. Ten Commandments are about God loves your neighbor and wants to protect them from you. That's so much more compelling to me. It's getting crystal clear when you went back, you're like, Lutheran, boom, done. Well, also the thing that Lutherans have going for them is this not not just the like incredible focus on grace instead of works but that we're all symbol used to set pkator in latin it means

simultaneously sinner and saint like 100 of both all the time and i'm like oh my gosh that explains a lot thanks right so people who are like, no, we're all good. And the light is within us. We're just capable of this sort of like, you know, pure love and, you know, all this stuff. And I'm like, shit, have you read the paper today? Literally just today's paper. You cannot read it and go, human beings are these wonderful, you know, and or people who are like, oh no, they're depraved, horrible. And I'm like, yeah, but have you walked in your neighborhood and seen these acts of kindness that people do to each other? It's like yes and.

It's always yes and with humans. Yeah. Yeah. I think we all like to see us as one way and them as the other, rather than, oh, we all have all of that in us. There is no them. Yeah, right. There's no separation, and it's all smushed up. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle.

So we're hanging out here in the context of this container called The Good Life Project. If I offer up that phrase, to live a good life, what comes up? Oh, for me? Yeah. Oh, gosh. To live a good life. When I think of that, I think of not having to hide, not having to pretend anything. There's an acceptance to who we are and to our limits and to other people's limits and to still see things as good, even though they can also kind of be bad, you know, and to not let one eclipse the other and to not deny one for the other.

And I think of as a leader, having humility and yet never apologizing for who I am. Like being in this space between those two things, not being self-apologetic, always apologizing when I'm wrong and still having humility. That's a place where you don't have to pretend anything. You can just kind of be and allow other people to be. Thank you.

Yeah. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who helped make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening

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