Good Life Project - Susan Cain: Introverts, Power and The Quiet Revolution

Episode Date: June 23, 2015

In January 2013, Susan Cain published a book that would spark a global conversation and change the world. Her stunning, international bestseller, Quiet: The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking, gave voice to nearly a third of the human race, those who'd often walked through life believing that their quiet nature, their love of smaller groups, individual conversations and solitude was something "to be fixed." Something that would hold them back in life, keep them from the good jobs and from rising to embrace their potential.Quiet was shock to the system. It validated this often-maligned social orientation with a fierce attention to science and revealed the stunning creative and social power of introverts. Cain let the quieter set, of which I am a member, know we're okay, better than okay, we are blessed. She also pulled back the curtain on how society and the corporate world build structure and culture that supports and rewards extroversion, while downplaying the value of introverts and stifling their ability to do the often game-changing work needed most.This week's conversation with Susan features not only what her book and ideas have done to the lives of millions, but also what the book has done to and for her. How it's changed her, thrust this previously introverted, solitude-loving writer onto the global stage and how she has found a new normal in her role as a leader and a public introvert.Follow Susan: Website | TwitterCheck out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think the understanding that you can be competent and be vulnerable at the same time is really the key. I don't know about you, but when I walk into a room full of strangers, whether it's a cocktail party, a business meeting, a large event, whatever it may be, I'm not the most comfortable person in the world. In fact, for years, it's pretty much terrified me. And for a long time, I also thought that maybe there was something wrong with me because of that. The world teaches us that if that's your orientation, the thing you need to do is fix it and learn how to be the person where you walk into a room and all of a sudden you are lit up and everyone swarms around you. Well, a couple of years back, today's guest, Susan Cain, released a book named Quiet, gave validation and gave understanding and a path to nearly a third of the human population who has lived feeling like something is wrong with them. Today's conversation goes deep into this phenomenon, into the exploration, into what led Susan to actually do this and to where she's going with it,

now that she's gotten such a stunning response to the ideas in the book. I'm Jonathan Fields. This is Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die.

Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I was trying to remember. Quiet came out, when was it? In 2012. Right. So you and I were hanging out at a cafe on the Upper West Side on the upstairs. And this was like a couple of months before the book came out.

And we were just sitting there like jamming back and forth. What's couple of months before the book came out. And we were just sitting there like jamming back and forth, what's going to happen with the book? What did you market it? Like, how do you actually get? And there was this moment where I was just kind of like, this is an astonishing book. We can talk about all this stuff, but it's just like you're giving voice to a third of like the population that's been told there's something wrong with them. And it's beautifully written. And I honestly, I was like, I don't know if you're going to have to do more than that. And then the book hits and it just explodes into the published consciousness. Were you ready for that? Did you think that that would happen or did you think there's a chance that that might actually happen? Oh gosh. You know, it's funny. I remember sitting with you that day at the cafe and I remember thinking, oh, it's really nice

that Jonathan thinks that that will just happen. But no, not, not who's he, but like, I was, I was very happy that you did, but I couldn't quite believe it, you know. And I certainly knew that my publisher had those hopes for it. You know, they had said that from the very beginning. But they too, at the same time that they had those hopes, everybody really understood that it was up to the publishing gods for it to really ignite, you know, and catch flame. So I guess I had moments of thinking about it, but not really. And I could never have foreseen, you know, just the groundswell and like the, the, the depth and vastness of the emotion of the response.

I couldn't really have understood in advance. Yeah. What, what was, when you saw that start to happen, um, I just, how did you handle it personally? Cause you're up until that point, you're like pretty private person,

you know, you're, you wrote the book when it's largely, there are large parts of it, which are, which are about you, you know, you're somebody who's,

um, and we'll get into defining or, you know, like the, the terms of introversion and stuff like that. But, um, and, and you were not like thrust into the spotlight in a huge and very abrupt way, but, um, but did you also, so I'm curious how you handled that. Um, but I'm also curious at the same time whether the nature of the conversation sort of like cultivated a sense of responsibility with you or whether you're just like, I just put this into the world. You guys do with it what you need to do.

Oh, yeah. No, I definitely felt radio interviews that day. And I began the day at like six in the morning going on CBS this morning, you know, and then moved from the TV studio to the satellite radio place and did my 21 radio interviews. So, you know, and as you say, before that, I had spent the previous seven years in kind of splendid solitude just writing. You know, I didn't even need a calendar during those years because I just wasn't even really booking anything. Like, you know, I gave birth to my two kids. I was completely involved in my home and in writing,

and that had been my world. So yeah, so it was actually a huge and rude shock to suddenly be out in the spotlight like that. And I actually remember saying at the time, I think this is probably taking a few months off of my life. I'm just being completely honest. You know, it was very stressful. It was, it was exciting. It was amazing. It was a dream come true in many ways. And it was also incredibly stressful for me. Um, but now I've gotten to the point where, you know, I'm out in the media or doing talks or whatever, and I don't even really think about it in terms of stress. Cause I'm just completely desensitized to the negative aspect of it. And I'm really mostly just feeding off of the passion for what I'm doing.

And it's so interesting, too, because, yeah, so I guess a certain amount of that is trainable. And by the way, if you guys are hearing in the background, and any interesting, you guys have been exposed to a lot of noises with me lately, I ended up recording an intro, like on a mountainside in Costa Rica a few weeks ago. And then we were in like the Bronx the other day. We're actually up in what Susan and her whole crew call the Quiet House, which is still the way along the river north of Manhattan. And you may hear some variation of birds or people or because it's quite literally a beautiful old house just sitting over the water. So that's what's going on if you're wondering in the background.

So as we sit here, you then kind of train yourself to be okay in a massive global spotlight. Did you think that that was trainable beforehand? No, I don't think so. Um, I mean, so there's two aspects to it. You know, one is the aspect of getting over fear for people who have fear of that kind of spotlight. And then the other is the training to actually be able to, you know, speak while you're in the spotlight.

Um, and the fear part, I really did not think I would be able to get over because it had been so deep seated for me. But now I really don't feel the fear anymore, or very, very marginally. So I've now come to be an incredibly deep believer in the power of desensitization, which is just the idea that if you expose yourself to something you fear, but you do it in very, very small doses, like one little step at a time, that that's truly the way through a fear and that it really can be done. So, you know, my rule of thumb with that is if you think of anxiety levels on a scale from 1 to 10, you should never be operating in the zone of 7 to 10, or, you know, as rarely as possible,

because you go crazy, like you should be more in the four to six range. And that's the range where it's difficult, and you're stretching yourself, but you'll probably have a positive experience at the end. And then you can, you know, keep growing from there. So is that why it's not below four is that it's actually you want to be in a range where you do feel some level of I don't know how this is going to end. And there's uncertainty and a bit of fear because that kind of is a signal that, you know, there's something to what you're doing. I don't even know if I would say that. I mean, I think it's great if you can live most of your life in the one to three range.

I just think it's that. It's like moving to a monastery. Yeah. It's just that for me and I think for many people, there are things that we want to do in the world. And if we want to do those things, we have to be willing to withstand being in a zone that's not comfortable. Yeah. No, I so agree. Yeah.

Yeah. And I mean, there was a time where I was so envious where I would see people that just seemed to not feel that at all. And then you start to talk to them and you're like, no, actually the vast majority of people feel that deeply. Yes. And, you know, it takes a lot out of them and they end up building all sorts of scaffolding and tools and strategies. Sometimes they don't even know it. That allowed them to kind of lean into it. So. That is so true. And, you know, this is probably, it sounds like this is something

you've experienced in your work because, you know, like me, you, you kind of go out and talk in a very honest way about what you feel and about what it means to be human really. Um, and so I'm sure you've had this experience. Like, I feel like I'm a confessor for people. So, you know, I go to a conference now and because I'm always talking about stuff that I feel vulnerable about, people now come up and tell me about their vulnerabilities. And so I now know that just as you say, the people who seem to be so shiny and put together and they've got it all worked out, they're grappling with the exact same things. People just don't talk about it that much. Yeah, it really is amazing. And, you know, it's interesting.

On the one hand, I think, you know, the intertubes technology has made it easier to just kind of find your people and be at home with them. And the other hand, I think it's also made it easier to sort of roll with the assumption that I've got to build sort of a public positioning of myself. And part of that is that I'm at least semi-bulletproof or else people won't listen to me and let me help them. simultaneously sets up a dynamic where you kind of want to, where you feel like you've got to protect a lot more and almost set up a facade and posture a little bit. If you're going to then have any plans on turning around and leading or potentially building some sort of enterprise around it. Wait, wait. I want to make sure I understand.

So facade and posture. In terms of, I think there's a perception that if you're going to build a public reputation and then at some point turn around and say okay like i can help you and in some way charge for it whether it's speaking or building tools or product or services or accompanying experiences that you you've got to present um the image that i've got more dialed in than you oh i see i see you I see. You know, it's it or else it's like, well, why would I involve myself in anything that you're doing if you're side by side with me? And I think that causes a lot of angst for people, because I think my sense is that some people may

take that as I need to create a little bit of fantasy around my reality, if I'm going to be able to stay alive doing this. That's really interesting because I think you're absolutely right about people feeling that way. And then at the same time, we're living in an era, you know, authenticity is now a buzzword. It's overused, but it's overused for a reason because I think people actually really want and crave authenticity. And you can't really be authentic if you're not willing to talk about stuff like that. You know, so I think of somebody like Brene Brown, and her power comes from the fact that she is willing to talk about really what it is to be

human. And that's what people are craving now. So, you know, I think the understanding that you can be competent and be vulnerable at the same time is really the key. Yeah, that's huge. Yeah, I think that's huge. And I think also people are yearning just to be around humans. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's kind of like to a certain extent people, you know,, will listen to you if, you know, you've got something to say that they don't yet know, or you've got a solution to their problem. But also, if just, they're kind of like, well, they're like me, and I want to the antithesis of the culture whose shackles we're kind of now leaving. You know, if you think of classic sort of 1950s IBM culture of like, everybody's got to look a certain way, and we all look the same way. And we're presenting always this visage of unflappable cheer. You know, nowadays, that feels to us very Stepford and automaton. And so we don't trust it. And you need to have trust. Yeah, totally agree.

So it just dawned on me 11 minutes into this conversation that there is a possibility that not every person in the world knows about the book that you've written. We should probably actually maybe name it and share a little bit about it. And then I kind of want to jump back in time with you a little bit. So you wrote a book called Quiet, The Power of Introverts in a World That Can't Stop Talking or Speaking. Yeah, talking. And what it essentially did, why don't you tell me, like, what was, A, why did you write this? And what did you, in your mind, what were you doing by writing? You know, the idea of the book was just to kind of shine a light on our culture, which I saw then and still see, although, you know, happily, there have been some changes since then, but a culture that really has a kind of lopsided view of human nature, a culture that says that we really should all be extroverted, you know, that that's where all social and creative value comes from, instead of recognizing that a third to a half of the population is introverted

and that many of the great contributions to humanity have come from introverts because of their quiet cerebral temperaments, not in spite of them. And this was just so obvious to me, I think partly because I had grown up in a very scholarly family of introverts. And like, it was, you know, I just saw it in my day-to-day life that my dad, for example, the doctor, he recently retired and he would come home from work every day and have dinner. And then he would go upstairs and pour over medical journals for hours. And he was known to be a really great doctor.

And it was clear to me, you can't actually be a great doctor unless you're willing to sort of do that deep thinking work. I knew this in my bones, but at the same time, looked around and saw the way our schools and our workplaces and religious institutions and our culture as a whole was not recognizing what to me was this very obvious truth. So I wanted to shine a light on it. And, you know, the amazing thing to me was, so when I first started working on the book, like I knew that I really believed this and I knew I felt it deeply. But at the time when I first started, it actually, you know, it felt like I was working on this weird project, um, because introversion had a kind of stigma to it. So it felt weird to like show up at a dinner party and say, yeah, I'm writing a book about

introverts. What, what does that mean exactly? You know, now it's come to be part of a general conversation. So it's hard to remember that feeling, but it did at the time feel like a funny project to have chosen. Um, but you know, the, the amazing thing has been like, since the book came out, just thousands and thousands and thousands of letters from people, um, in some ways, all of them saying the same thing, which is, I now feel for the first time that I have permission to be who I am.

And I never felt that before. And I always thought I was the only one who felt this way, you know, and then to learn that you're actually part of a vast and rather distinguished tribe, I think is, you know, it's a profound thing. Yeah. I can't tell you how many people I referred to or given the book to, to either help them understand themselves or parents to help understand a kid that they're struggling to,

to just like figure out like how to, and it's like, you know, well actually the kid doesn't have to be the way you think they need to be, to be completely okay in the world. And, and here's a book that's really going to explain why. Yeah. Yeah. No, the implications for parents and children, I can't even overstate how meaningful it is. If you could see some of the letters I get, I get letters from 12-year-olds talking about their parents not quite understanding them and the pain that they carry around for that reason. And I get letters from 70 year olds whose parents hadn't understood them when they were 12. And they're still carrying around that pain to this day. And like, I can't stand to even think of it because it's so much unnecessary pain, you know, and often it's coming from well-meaning parents

or teachers who want to be equipping their children to live life in what they perceive to be an extroverted culture. And so they're giving their kids the message that there's something wrong with them and they'd better conform to this other way of being. And all the kids hear is there's something wrong with me, you know. Whereas if you just make a kind of sort of a slight, but profound mind shift of this kid is super cool and yeah, I'm going to give them some tools to cope in situations that might not be their favorite, but look how amazing they are the way they are. That, that changes everything. Yeah. If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you.

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swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. You know, I wondered to whether, to a certain certain extent the rise of the knowledge worker is helping in a way. Because, you know, there's the myth of the coder introvert who sits there with the headphones on just kind of like alone in a corner, or potentially like 30 people.

But they're in one room, but they're in their own unique worlds with their headphones on doing their own thing. And then they create the next Facebook or the next Twitter. And so there's almost this mythology of like that personality type is sort of the driving engine of the coolest new things that are evolving in the world. And I wonder if as that mythology kind of propagates into the world, that maybe gives a little bit more permission for people to sort of step into that mode and maybe even for parents to just say, well, okay, my kid's that way. But maybe that's still okay because I can actually see a path to whatever your overlay of success is. Yeah. No, I can actually see, I can see a path of two, you know, like whatever your overlay of success is. Yeah, no, I think that's absolutely right. Um, and what you're, I think what you're really getting at is the fundamental importance of role models. Um, you

know, so I always say to people, you should, you should know for yourself, for your child, whomever you should always have role models available to you who are people who you feel like kind of have your temperament and your way of passing through the world. They don't even have to be in the same field that you're in, but just somebody who's blazed a path in your type of way before. And so what you're talking about is a whole industry full of these kinds of role models. You know, when you use the word mythology, but it's really not a mythology. Yeah, true. Wrong word. No, no, no.

And, you know, it's striking. If you go to the TED conference, it's a funny thing. Like, people talk about, oh, all these charismatic speakers at TED. But, in fact, most of the speakers who are on stage at TED are not naturally charismatic people. They're actually just – many of them are introverts. They're usually just people who happen to be passionate about whatever they're doing. And what we're seeing through TED

is that passion itself is what carries people. So some of the Silicon Valley legends who you were mentioning are not, they were not the charismatic CEOs that we saw in years past, you know, in the 1950s or 1960s, like very different ways of being. And I don't think we even realize how little it as well. And it really does seem like that was the ideal for, you know, like a window in time and everyone thought you had to be that person to build something big and substantial and have people line up to follow you. But it really does seem like even now the

research bears out that it's just not true. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's so true. I mean, one of my favorite studies found that charismatic CEOs are better paid than less charismatic CEOs, but they don't actually deliver a better performance. And to me, that really says it all. Yeah. So you brought up speaking and the TED conference, which I guess you've been to a number of times now. Yes. Yes. And, but there was a breakout moment for you also, because you spoke at the big tech conference. And it was right around the time that the book came out, right? Or shortly after? Yeah, yeah. It was about a month after. And so I remember I was prepping for a similar talk, maybe a year or so after,

and I loved what you had done. And I asked you, I said, hey, did you work with anyone? You shared a coach who I then worked with for a bit. And, and there came a time where I was working with him. And he said, like, there's a moment where you've got to sort of do this very physical thing. He's like, I know you're not comfortable doing it, but this is going to be the moment that everybody remembers. There was a moment in your Ted talk where you did something that seemed really, knowing you a bit, really uncomfortable for you. Do you know the moment I'm talking about? No, actually, I don't.

The cheer? Oh, the cheer. Yes, of course. Talk to me. Lay that. What actually happened there? And I'm curious how you felt going to that place on stage in front of both people who were in the TED Conference and then knowing that this would be a sort of globally viewed thing after that?

Well, I mean, first of all, I didn't really know it would be a globally viewed thing. Like had I known, I would not have been wearing a black dress, for example. But you're a New Yorker, so it's almost required. Yeah, no, that was incredibly important. Sorry, that was incredibly like difficult. So share what was the moment? Yeah. So the moment is that I, I, I was trying to give the audience the experience of what it had been like to grow up as an introvert in an extroverted world. Um, so I was talking about an experience where I had gone to camp and had brought with me my suitcase full of books.

And I had kind of imagined that I'd be sitting around in the bunk at camp with my fellow campers, like all of us reading our novels together. Um, and instead I was introduced to this incredibly gregarious, uh, rowdy world of camp. And on the very first day we were taught this cheer that we were expected to, to belt out really every day. And, um, you know, the cheer went, Oh gosh, do I have to do it now? You don't have to belt it out. Share what it was. The cheer that went R O W D I E. That's the way we spell rowdy, rowdy, rowdy. Let's get rowdy. And I'm probably blushing as I say this right now you can't see that um whoever's listening but um yeah i remember you know when i at first i wrote my talk and like

it was very comfortable to sit at my laptop and write that down and then i looked at my piece of paper and i was like shit you've actually got to say this now. I'm like in front of all these people. Can I really do this? So, yeah, it was incredibly helpful to practice with – my coach's name was Jim Fife. I think that's who you're talking about. Yeah, yeah. And how did you feel actually doing it? Like when you knew the moment was coming, were you aware of sort of – or were you just totally cool with it by then because you had practiced it a million times? Or were you like, ah, this, interesting. It was probably more of the latter because I actually still do that cheer sometimes in my

talks and I think it's never grown totally comfortable to me. But yeah, I have no memory of that particular time because I don't remember actually giving the TED talk. It was like some altered state and it's not in my memory banks anymore. That is so wild. Yeah. I mean, I know I was there. I know I gave it, but I don't really remember it. It's just such immersive focus and concentration.

And it's like the flow state where you become the thing. Yeah. Time fugues. Something like that. Or abject terror. Some blend. Yeah, some blend of that. Not so harmonious blend of all of those things. Or it was just so awful that you blanked it out in your memory for the rest of

your life. So that also, I think the combination of that talk creating a huge ripple out into the world and the book at the same time. You touched on also the fact that you shared a little bit about where you came from and your family dynamic when you were a kid. Where'd you actually grow up? I grew up in Long Island. All right. So, and you grew up in, so tell me a little bit about what was the family like when you were a kid and what were you like as a kid? So, you know, I had my parents, my brother and my sister, very loving grandparents. Um, and we were all of us pretty introverted and readerly, I would say,

you know, um, yeah, I, in my family, I was actually probably the most extroverted of all of us. And so I was always very aware of like the mores of my family, just being different from the mores of my friends' families or of school in general. I was always a kid who had plenty of friends, but always wanted to interact with them one-on-one. You know, and I remember, it's funny that camp seems to be the locus of these things. I think just so much happens at camp. But like, I remember being like four years old at camp and everybody had to gather around and sing that song. If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. And I remember kind of being pissed off about it and feeling like, you know, I was happy five minutes ago when I was over there playing with my friend.

I'm not happy now that you're making me sing this stupid song. And I just often had that feeling of there being this disconnect between what felt to me the ideal way to spend one's time and the way you were told you were supposed to spend it. And that kind of became the core of what I wanted to tell people, because I don't think we can, I don't think it's possible to state the extent to which introverts constantly feel that their own preference of how to spend time, the simple decision of how to spend your time, they usually feel guilty about, or like it's wrong in some way. Yeah. It really is interesting because I grew up with it. I mean, I'm similar orientation to you. Whenever I take a strength test, my love of learning is always like one or two.

And I love I'm an autodidact, which means I read like a monster to learn. I have to pace myself. I don't do well in large groups of classrooms. And it's not so much socially. So I think I wonder if that sort of like has fed into, you know, it's sort of like a circle where there's a lot of feedback mechanisms that create that dynamic. But I don't need a lot. I'm good with solitude. I love a small group of people to just be around.

Yeah. Very much like you. I love, you know, like one or two people, three people, small dinner. Like we'll have people over for dinner. I'd much rather do that than meet people out at a bar. Yeah. Yeah. And you were the person who really actually originally said to me, she's like,

she's, you said, um, you know, you understand that, that introverted doesn't mean antisocial, right. You know, and I still remember the phrase you shared with me and which is it's more selectively social. Ah, oh, I didn't know I had that phrase. I like it. You did. And, and, but that really opened a window for me because I'm like, I, oh, oh yeah, I didn't know I in the world of entrepreneurship.

It's the ability to handpick the people you surround yourself with and build the culture exactly the way you want. To me, that's the magic. And I think that's one of the things that through reading your work and just knowing you and being friends and having conversations has really enriched my understanding of how to do that in a way that fills me up and also fills up the people that you sort of want to be, you know, together with. Huh? Oh, I love that. I love that. That's so nice to know. Um, yeah, I mean, the way that I sometimes put that is kindred spirits. Like

I think if you kind of go through the world and look for your kindred spirits, then that's the right way to live, you know, and for some people, they want one or two kindred spirits around them, and that's what they need. And some people want to have 50 or 75, and it kind of doesn't matter as long as you've got the people you want. Which brings up this huge question, and I don't know if it's answerable, which is, well, I guess it's two questions really. It's how do you know when it's a kindred spirit,

and then how do you find them? Uh-huh. I don't know. I mean, I, I think, I don't know if I have an answer to it because I feel like it's usually so instantaneous. Yeah. It's so apparent and instantaneous, um, in my experience. Yeah. I mean, it's been mine also. Um, yeah. And, and my, at least on my side, the answer has been go do things you like to do. Um, and you know, like the, there's a decent chance that you'll find more of those same people. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's all, I think it's doing things you like to do. And I think it's also talking about the kinds of things you like to talk about, you know, like, so I so I will sit around and talk about human nature.

Pretty much. I will never stop. Like, I'll never tire of that. So some people really want to talk about that and some people really don't. And that's cool. But I think you find out pretty quickly, you know, do you share those interests? Do you share an orientation to the world? Yeah, no, totally agree.

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So you're at a point now where we're hanging out here.

This is a couple of years out. You made this huge explosion into the world, a giant ripple that keeps rippling and rippling and rippling. You spent what I think was originally supposed to be your year of speaking dangerously, but it ended up at what, let's actually talk about that for a second. Yeah, sure. Because you're launched into the spotlight too from a very private place. And then there's massive demand for you to go out there and share your message. So you created this thing that your year of speaking dangerously.

Yeah. What is that? Well, okay. The year of speaking dangerously was actually the year before this explosion. Yeah. It was really, it was like the year before the book came out. And I knew that I was really passionate about it and would want to go out and share the message. And yet I had this problem of being terrified of public speaking. So I was like, what am I going

to do? So my year of speaking dangerously was practicing public speaking, like every chance that I could get in these really small doses, you know, until I could get to a point where I was sort of passable at it. And I, you know, I actually, I started at this place called the Public Speaking Center of New York, which is amazing. It's led by this guy, Charles DiCagno. Can't recommend it enough. And it's for people who are not comfortable

with public speaking. You know, it's almost like a support group. And you go to these sessions and the very first day, if you're really nervous, like you go there, you stand up in front of the group, say your name and sit down. And then you go back the next week and maybe you stand up and people ask you, you know, where were you born and where did you go to school? Answer the questions, sit back down. So the idea is like you're taking it really slowly.

So that, you know, I went through and then I joined Toastmasters and did all this stuff and that kind of got me to my book publicity moment got it I never realized that was actually the year before it was the year before yeah yeah it makes so much sense now actually yeah so since then I mean it's so crazy like ironically I've had this whole career as an international public speaker, which like, I never ever would have imagined would be so. Yeah, when you when you started to say yes to that, and was there anything in your mind that said, Okay, I'm going to do this for you know, like, I'm going to, I'll set aside a chunk of time to do this, because it's part of what you do, I want to get the message out. It's really good. but I really want to go back to the way it was to like my sort of like quieter life, more, you know, less in the public eye life, you know, at a certain point in time, or were you just kind

of like, let's just see where this train goes. Yeah. I think at the beginning, I really did start out with exactly the mentality that you just described, but I guess what happened over time was number one, the discomfort of it kind of melted away. So, you know, it's still like, it takes energy for me to do all that, but I don't have the discomfort, you know, and I'm really able to focus on the passion that I feel for connecting with the audience at those moments. So I don't know, I think since then that the, the passion has mostly taken over. And I, you know, so now that's actually just become kind of a natural part of who I am and what I do. But there's definitely the piece of me that, you know, just loves writing.

I will always love writing. It's like my great deep love in terms of what I, you know, how, how, how, how I spend time. So, and, and I'm not a fast writer, you know, I like to kind of like really go deep with one topic. Um, so there's a part of me that would love to be sitting for hours on end in a library, just researching one topic. And that part of my life is a little bit on hold right now. But it also seems like it's on hold because you've taken the concept, you've taken sort of like the inciting incident, and now you're building some really extraordinary things for people that it can ripple out into.

Can we talk about those? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so basically what happened is I alluded to this earlier. I started to get these letters. I mean, like so many letters and so many conversations that I would have with people. difficulties they had faced parenting quiet children and, you know, wanting help and asking, how can I change my child's school? And I would get company leaders saying, how can I change the culture of my company? How can I be a better leader to introverts? Or I'm an introverted leader. How can I understand my strengths better? Like, so all these questions. And I felt like the book had done its job in raising consciousness of these questions, but more needed to be done to actually implement these ideas within cultures and within structures, social structures. So I decided that I had to start an organization to do something about this. So I've now actually founded a company called Quiet Revolution.

It is a mission-based company. I've co-founded it with my longtime friend, Paul Shibeta. And our mission is to unlock the power of introverts for the benefit of us all. And we have all kinds of projects that we're working on. We're launching a big global community website. We are going into companies and organizations like NASA, for example, we're working with, as you can imagine. The space agency. The space agency. They have lots of introverts over there and Fortune 100 companies. And we're going in and helping them really transform their cultures.

And really the idea is to help companies harness the talents of the introverted half of their population and improve communication between the introverts and extroverts so that everybody's working better and more respectfully. So we're doing that. We are starting to work on programs for schools. We're building out a big online course for parents. It's really

aesthetically beautiful and took all the best of our thinking about how you can really parent your child well. We're putting that online. We want to make it available to the world. So we have all kinds of projects. So...

Go ahead. When you were listening to all those different things something changed in your voice when you talked about the parenting thing huh that's funny yeah i mean i wasn't aware of the change in my voice but i'm also not surprised because all of these are passion projects for me like really deeply um but the thing about the kids, you know, I'm going to choke up talking about it. Like, yeah, I mean, I, I should have brought some letters to read, but the letters that I get from children in unnecessary pain, it makes me crazy. And, and I know there are so many parents out there who really want, like they're the

most well-meaning people in the world and they just want the tools to be great parents to their children. And so I feel like if we can give those tools to all these parents, you know, it's like changing one life after another, after another, after another. You know, and there's interesting challenges that parents have depending on their own temperament. So it's of course really obvious to think an extroverted parent might have challenges raising an introverted child because they have trouble empathizing with what that child is actually feeling. You know, they've never experienced it themselves. But introverted parents can have challenges of an entirely different nature. You know, as an introverted

parent, you might still be carrying around the pain you experienced as a child. You might be projecting it onto your child who wouldn't otherwise feel it. And you might just be like the whole question of things like, you know, what do you do when your, when your child doesn't want to go to a party? Those questions might be so fraught for you that you have trouble responding to them in a healthy, low key way. So all these things we want to help parents work with. It's almost like, you know, you are, you remember your experience as an introverted kid being forced to go to a party and you think the answer is to take your introverted kid and almost force them into an extroverted mold so they don't suffer the same thing. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. That's exactly it.

I had an interesting conversation a year or two back with Eve Branson, actually Richard Branson's mom. And she tells a story of how when Richard was very young, I think seven or eight years old or something like that, he was a fiercely, what she called fiercely shy kid, very introverted kid. And I know there's a difference between shy and introverted. And her words were something like, you know, it's not really acceptable to be sort of socially pulled away from people. That's not the appropriate way to be. So she tells this story of trying to force him to have to talk to people by driving him out to the countryside, dropping him out of the car and saying, find your way home. Oh, my gosh. Wow. Which, of course,, this day and age.

Richard's a different generation. She was around 90, I think, when we spoke. Child services, we call it. It was a very different world then. And then she also shares how the experiment backfired horribly. They came home. He never showed up. They started getting really upset and started driving around everywhere.

And they finally found him hours later just casually having dinner with a local neighbor. So lesson learned on both things, but just understand. Anything to me that creates empathy and compassion is a good thing. And I think the heartbeat, that's so much of what your work is about. Yeah, no, that's exactly the idea of it. And just simple mind-shifting things like when raising an introverted child, I always tell parents, excuse me, is quieter children, whether they're shy or introverted or both, they often have longer runways that they have to travel down before they take off and fly. That's just the way it is. And it's fine. It's actually

really no big deal once you understand that, but it's so key for those kids to know that you're okay with their longer runway and that you're going to be there with them on the longer runway. So the answer is not, oh, they're more uncomfortable. Therefore, you know, you get to stay home. Like you don't want to, you don't want to overprotect them, but you also want to go with them for these smaller steps, smaller steps that might take longer and just be there with them and have them know that you think they're cool. I mean, really all of this, like I could tell you, and we do in the course, give you words you can use to reframe experiences with your kids. But in some ways, the words don't really matter because your kid is going to pick up whatever you feel about them.

They will pick it up. So the real work is rethinking what you feel about your child in this culture. Yeah, I think that's such an important distinction. You know, you're so right. Kids read you like a book, it doesn't matter what's coming out of your mouth. If like, there's just cognitive distance in the way that you actually, your energy and the way you relate to them. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. So one thing is if you are interested in checking out our website,

it's at quietrev.com and it's a community website and we would love to have you. And the other thing is, I just want to say a big thank you to my good friend, Jonathan, who's just one of the great menches of our time and thinkers of our time. And you all are so lucky

to be part of his tribe. So thank you. Thank you. All right, last question. So the name of this project is Good Life Project. So if I offer that term out to you to live a good life, what does it mean to you? Good life. You know, it's a life. It's funny. It's hard to answer that question without resorting to cliches, I think, because the first place I'm going is, you know, it's a life of love and it's a life of passion for doing the work that you most want to do.

You know, I feel like Freud was probably wrong about a lot of things. But one thing he really got right was that love and work is everything. So that to me is a good life. Thank you. You're welcome. Hey, I really enjoyed that conversation. If you found it valuable as well, would so appreciate if you just head on over to iTunes, take a couple of seconds and let us know,

share a review or rating, always honest. And if you found this episode, the conversation valuable and you think other people, maybe friends or family would enjoy it and benefit from it, go ahead and share it with them as well. And as always, if you want to know what's going on with us at Good Life Project, then head over to goodlifeproject.com. And that's it for this week.

I'm Jonathan Fields, signingoton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes. New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need need whenever you need it. Find your

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