Good Life Project - Susan Piver, Lodro Rinzler: Soulmates, Rejection and Big Wins

Episode Date: April 6, 2016

Today's Good Life Project Roundtable™ features guests-in-residence Susan Piver and Lodro Rinzler. This is session 2 in their three-week residency.Susan is a New York Times bestselling author, teacher, and founder of the international mindfulness community, The Open Heart Project. Working to create a good human world, one breath at a time.Lodro is a teacher in the Shambhala Buddhist lineage, the author of five books on meditation, and the founder of M N D F L, a new studio making meditation accessible to all New Yorkers, and the Institute for Compassionate Leadership.Our three topics in this episode:Is there such a thing as 'the one' in relationships and how do you know?Everyone wants to own the results, but why not the process?How to be okay when your co-workers reject you.It's fast-paced, fun, utterly unscripted and at times a bit raw, but always good-natured and very real. Enjoy! And let us know if you like this format, over on social media. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And we're back with week number two with our guests in residence for the Good Life Project Roundtable, Susan Piver, author, meditation teacher, and founder of The Open Heart Project, the world's largest online meditation community, and Lodo Rensler, also meditation teacher, author. I don't know how that all... Somehow we all ended up with meditation teachers and authors for this residency and founder of really cool and fast-growing drop-in meditation center in New York City called Mindful. You can find links to connect with them in the show notes to this show. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Awesome hanging out with roundtable guests in residence this week, Susan Piver and Lodro Rensler. This is our second week of their residency. So if you

missed the first one, be sure to go back and check it out. Awesome conversations with awesome human beings. So we're going to start off with Lodro today. What's on your mind? So I recently wrapped traveling around and doing a tour for the last book I did called How to Love Yourself and Sometimes Other People. I spoke at a lot of self-help conferences. And I think what people wanted me to say is they wanted me to get up on stage and say, here's how you find the one and you have the perfect relationship. Right? And I come from a Buddhist background. So I was like, let's pretend that you find someone that you're willing to spend time with. At some point, you might go through a breakup or a divorce,

or one of you is going to die. So let's not put our happiness eggs in the external factor basket. Let's talk about how to love ourself. And people did not like me. They weren't into it. They're like, you're such a downer, man. I guess my question is, because exactly, I feel like such a downer coming off guess my question is because exactly i feel like such

a downer coming off of this is there such a thing as the one you both are married how did you know that you wanted to spend your life with this person that you are spending your life with like is there i mean i'm not presuming that you have any sort of perfect relationship but i do okay well then how did that happen this is my big question like how did you know I mean, I'm not presuming that you have any sort of perfect relationship. I do. Okay. Well, then how did that happen? This is my big question. How did you know?

Is there such a thing as the one? And what's the day-to-day dynamic of making sure that you are able to stay in a healthy relationship? Whatever that means to you. And never die. And never die. That's right. And have the other person never die. Give me the advice that I should have given these people so when i speak

next time i won't have anything thrown at me season what are you thinking yeah this this is my jam okay i love this topic yeah how do you know if someone is the one? It is so mysterious. And I don't know. And so intimate. And so personal. I personally never thought I would get married. I thought I would have relationships. But I didn't ever think I would want to be with someone all the time because I don't like that.

I still don't like that. But I've been married for 17 years. But I had a boyfriend, my husband, and I just really loved him. And he, I kept, the question I just kept asking myself was, what do I need to do to deepen this love? What do I need to do? What can I do to deepen this intimacy? And at one point, and I did not want to have children.

So I think for some people, that's a real factor. Like, we don't have a family. We should just get this thing moving. That wasn't a factor for me. I just thought the next thing I have to do to deepen this connection is marry this frigging person. And if I don't, it's just going to start to move from this deep place up to the surface, and I don't want it to do that.

So the sense of like go deeper or... Go deeper or go home. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And it was a combination of things. It was, I love this person, but so what? Everyone who's been divorced loved the person they are now divorced from. It was a time in our lives.

I was not, you know, not a young person. And just this feeling of, I want to keep engaging with this person. I have no idea why. It's on the list of like, I want him to be happy and funny and smart and tall and have a job and a car. I mean, yeah, I had a lot of great qualities, but in terms of a person I envisioned myself being with, it would not be this person. So Duncan's not funny. But it is this person. But he still only has a car.

Exactly. So we're good. You're right. Has a job and a car and speaks English. Those used to be... It's pretty high bar. Right? Yeah, it's funny.

I think about the idea of the one true love. And there's something in me, I have no idea if this is legit or not, but there's something in me that wants to believe that any two people trapped on a desert island with no hope of ever being rescuedillions of other people that just might be that one true love, it's almost like it stops you from considering and potentially doing the work, investing in yourself and investing in a relationship on a level that would allow that sense of true love or really deep and profound lasting love to to flourish and so it's like to me it's that it's like that desert island question you know it's like if the if you knew that this was it for life there was no other option ever and your only other option was either like to find a way to like deepen your relationship and be with this person forever or you're gonna live in solitude um like would you somehow find a way to create that in the other person? I don't know. Well, I'm trying not to laugh because that is what marriage is exactly like.

At some point you find I'm on a desert island with this person. Right. And I have to figure out a way to love them. And there's nice palm trees and you know like make good fruit but i thought i knew them but the and and i did but now as time goes by i actually realize i don't know them yeah there's an unfolding there is and i think as you were saying that it was coming to me like the the person becomes your one true love, but they don't start out that way. They start out maybe as someone you are in love with, you love to have sex with, you just feel super attracted to and

happy to be with and have fun and can talk or whatever it is you like doing with other people. But the one true love piece emerges and it takes time. And I think the question of, and this is what I, because I wrote a book when I was getting married called The Hard Questions a long time ago. It's sitting on my shelf. Because I was so like, how do I know? Okay, I have a list of 100 questions I would like to ask you. He was very excited. Take the football test in diner. Exactly, exactly. It was sort of the girly version of the football test.

And I realized when I was writing this that, I didn't intend to write it as a book, but I realized as I was asking the questions, that just because you love someone does not mean you will love your life together. That those two things are actually not connected. And they're love affairs and relationships and we want our love we think i'll find the best love affair and then i'll turn it into a relationship but that doesn't always happen and we want our relationships to be love affairs and you think well it has to keep being this steamy wonderful joyful, joyful thing. But there are very few that can be both. And so if you ask, is this the one for me to have a love affair with? That's one question. Is this the one for me to make a life with and have a relationship with? That's a different question. And the answer could

be yes, in both cases, but perhaps... Yeah yeah and i think it evolves over time also like you said i think like over time you know like you start to create that i'm i'm married we're going on 19 years now i guess and i i always i get really nervous whenever i i talk about this because i i i don't want to be held up as like i'm telling you how to make this work you know like i've got all the we've been asked actually many times, would you do a thing on couples and cultivating great marriage? On any given day,

we're not outside looking in and understanding how it works. We're just in it, trying to engage and live and actually just do it every day. Maybe the year before I die, I'll have something to say about looking back like looking back but right now we're kind of we're in it looking out and we're like we've elevated to the to the level of we also we're business

partners yeah so like we we live and breathe every single day all day together and some people look at us they're like oh my god how do you do that i mean is that good is that it's amazing i remember once hearing you say this was the sweetest thing i you said i wake up every morning and i and and i look over and i feel like so lucky and i do i was so beautiful that and i and i do feel like that way and we're you know like we're're, we've been married almost 19 years and we've been together for 20 something. And I still, I feel that I'm 50 years old and I feel like every day I'm like, what an astonishing blessing to be with this woman on every level. That's so great. But I can't deconstruct.

Like I couldn't turn around and say, I don't know. I hope so. Okay. So I hear that. And just like one final thought is, and it's only every year has gotten better. We've been through big challenges, like every couple that's been through together, like whether it's emotional health relationship, you know, like, and what we found is like, every abyss that we waded into has been sometimes really hard. But when we merge the other side, we are more deeply connected than ever before. And part of that, I think, is work. But part of it is also, I think, honoring the fact

that you have to grow as individuals and honor that individual growth. And if doing that simultaneously keeps you compatible or even makes you more compatible, that's awesome. But it doesn't always happen that way. So to a certain extent, part of that, I think, is fortune. Yeah. And it's beautiful because I think a lot of people forget to allow the space for the individual growth. And like, what is going on with that person over there? So, but Susan and I gave a talk a few weeks ago now.

And she had this beautiful example of, yes, I love you and you're wonderful. But then sometimes you're stirring the soup and you're stirring the soup wrong. Right. I was looking at him. Literally, I was looking at him stirring the soup. And you just got to know it. That's a stupid way're stirring the soup and you're stirring the soup wrong. Right. I was looking at him. Literally, I was looking at him stirring the soup. And you just got to know it. That's a stupid way to stir soup. Right. Do you have that too, Jonathan?

Yes. Knowing that she'll listen to this? Yes. And my answer is yes. And I absolutely have those moments. I think everybody does. The cool thing is that through my practice over the years, I find it easier and easier to see when I'm doing it. And then drop it.

To realize it's about me and not them. To realize this is the stupidest thing on the planet. And that's like, who cares? You're looking for a reason to be pissed off about something that absolutely doesn't matter in any way, shape or form. And very often for me, it's when I'm tired or overworked or crank zooming the lens out, getting a little meta and saying, okay, I'm annoyed here. But what the hell is really going on? Because there's clearly no rational basis for me to even be mildly upset about any of this. And they go down my list, like, did I sleep well?

Did I exercise? Am I stressed about this? And I'm like, yeah, of course, it's any of this. So I'm like, and they go down my list. Like, did I sleep well? Did I exercise? Am I stressed about this? And I'm like, yeah, of course, it's all of those. So it lets me kind of like dissipate it a little more readily. I love that you thought that was a beautiful story. I did. That's a great example, though. Because, you know, I was giving a talk yesterday,

and I was like, and, you know, maybe you get annoyed because they never wash their dishes. And my mother was in town, she was in the room, and afterwards she goes, Adriana doesn't wash the dishes? No, no, she does sometimes. Not the point, but. Just a good example. Right. But then when you layer that level of judgment like that.

Anyway, so shall we rotate around to topic number two? Okay, sure. This topic is based on something I heard you say in a video. And I just watched this video recently. I'm not sure when you made it. I think it's fairly recent. And you said, everybody wants to own the idea. Everybody wants to own the result. I'm paraphrasing, but nobody wants to own the process. And that just, that was brilliant. And that just really, like, that is absolutely true and said in a very pithy and concise way. And I wanted to,

that's my topic. Why? Why does no one want to own the process? And how, why? I guess I'll just say, why is that, do you think? What's that about? It's a really good question. Just off the top of my head, you know, I, as you guys both know, I started something called Mindful, which is a drop-in meditation studio. It's sort of the first type here in New York where you can just drop in for a half hour or 45 minutes, do meditation class.

Every day we have people come in and be like, this is a great idea. This is beautifully executed. It's a lovely space. The teachers are top notch. It's quote unquote done right. You know? It is. It's a great place.

And I'm sitting here looking at them being like, are you crazy? This is not an established business. We're four months old. It's a startup. It's constantly in evolution. Like you don't like, there's an outward face of like, look how nice this space is. Look at how wonderful my meditation class was. And behind the scenes, I'm sitting here being like, are we, I mean, we're not making any money on books. That's not a good thing, right? I guess

we always have to like, keep the lights on. And in order to keep the lights on, we have to make money. There's just a whole process around how to run a business that, you know, I'm a simple meditation teacher. I'm sort of putting one foot in front of the other, and we have wonderful staff who helps direct me, essentially, even though I'm one of the founders, to figuring out how to run a business and what that process is like. But it's sometimes brutal. It sometimes causes me stress.

And I just think even that dichotomy of like, oh, this is a beautiful image. You know, I love a good life project. I love being part of the community and not necessarily seeing the work that goes behind the scenes with jonathan and like that process is brutal but it makes for the better baby you know let me just put this in different context i was disappointed to see the other day that a meditation teacher i admire chose to have a ghost writer for their book and thought, writing the book is the only way that I actually process the material. I think it was Joan Didion who said, I don't know what I think about something until I write about it. And that's always been my process.

Like, I couldn't give a talk on a certain topic until I sat down and slaved over writing about it. And that process made it genuine for me. And I thought, oh, maybe it's different for this person. I shouldn't judge them for getting a ghostwriter. But I thought, the process is so wonderful. And you learn so much. The act of starting a business is pulverizing me and making me a better human being. So I don't talk about that much. But I'm sitting here in response to the question,

what's coming up for me is, why don't I? I have no idea. Why don't I talk about that behind the scenes stuff? Yeah. And there's actually a conference called FailCon. I don't I? I have no idea. Why don't I talk about that behind the scenes stuff? Yeah. And there's actually a conference called FailCon. I don't know if it still goes on where everyone comes. Like most tech and entrepreneurial conferences, it's all about the successes. And this is all about massive fail. Like people sharing their failures along the way. It's funny. Like when I created that video, pretty much everything I do, and maybe you

guys are the same way when you write, when you make stuff, it's I'm, I'm talking to myself, for the most part. And I've, I've spent so much time, number one, I'm not a process driven person. My orientation is very much outcome. And so I endure the process because I want what's on the other side of it. But for me, I still haven't figured out how to turn the process side of it into as much joy as possible. You know, I, I question like, what is it that makes me suffer so much with process? And what is it that makes the process of doing something awesome for so many people so unseemly that they just, they don't want to, they want to walk in and actually, you know, everyone wants,

and this is funny, like we had experience in the restaurant industry and so I know pirate bars and restaurants. So many people want to own restaurants, but they really don't want to own restaurants. There are so many people that I've talked to where they would love to walk into their restaurant on a Friday night and see a hundred people reveling and drinking wine and having delicious food and the conversation and the music is just so, and the lighting is fantastic. And everyone looks and says, you're here. This is her restaurant. Please come to that. And you're wandering around the tables and saying and basking in the glory of having this fantastic thing.

I want to own a restaurant. basking and rotating and being adored. You go home and you read a book and hang out with your family and then go to bed at 10 o'clock at night. And you're like, the reality of the restaurant industry is horrible. It's a 24-7 job. It is a brutal, brutal industry, where the work that you have to do to make it seem like everything is effortless and wonderful in the front of the house is like evil, like slightly above pure evil. And it's a hard, hard, hard, brutal, brutal industry. Almost all restaurants fail very quickly. And even the ones that succeed, it's brutal. So everyone wants to be the owner and the one who created this amazing thing.

And I experienced this with entrepreneurs too. Everyone wants to be the one that created this company or this product or this brand or this movie or this wrote this book. And then without having no understanding of the crazy painful levels of sustained uncertainty, the crazy painful levels of sustained complexity that it actually takes to get to that point of outcome. And that's why I created that video. That's why I sort of like wrote that whole thing. Because I'd had so many conversations, I don't love that process myself, even though I've learned to like get as okay as I can with it, because I know that it's necessary to get to the place I want to get and create what I want to create. But there's so much delusion in the world around the fact that you do have to embrace huge

levels of sustained uncertainty and complexity very often to get to that place. And it's kind of like it was like a call to action to say like, you know, yes, there was there's going to be an elevated level of suck in your life, potentially for a long period of time, along with an elevated level of awe and amazement and connection and camaraderie and beauty and grace. And that's part of the process. And so when most people actually understand what it really takes to get from point A to point B, if they understood that, they actually wouldn't do it. I agree. And in fact, I remember reading a study a couple of years back that asked a bunch of successful entrepreneurs if they had known what it would actually take to get there on the day that it started, would they have done it? And a large percentage said no.

So in a weird way, it's almost good that you don't know how hard it's going to be coming into it. It's true. But at the same time, you should have some sense so that you're steeled for when it does get that hard, because it will. Yeah. I feel like many of these things, yes, business, but I can't speak from personal experience on this one, but I imagine pregnancy.

I imagine, and I know this one, like a long meditation retreat. Like, wow, you're going on a long meditation retreat? That sounds so wonderful. So relaxing. And then you're there and you fucking hate everything. Yeah. It's not relaxing. The food isn't good and it's raining and you've got cold and someone's sniffling right next to you and it's gross.

I mean, at the end, you're like, wow, that was so wonderfully transformative. So it reminds me more of that. I can't speak to the experience of pregnancy and childbirth, but same sort of thing. Like at the end, you're like, great. And then we almost need to like slice that part of our memory out so that we could go do it again. Like the process part.

People who have more than one child forget the pain of labor not literally but it's the same with writing a book which we've all done if you know people think oh you wrote a book do you just you sort of sit in your room and you contemplate you think about life and contemplate things and jot them down and there's classical music playing in the background i actually smoke a pipe while i'm doing it i have a new joke i actually have a tobacco pipe i'm the only man in his 30s that owns a tobacco pipe yes do you have a blazer with elbow pads yes i do actually well as you're talking here's what is coming to my mind, and it is the three between anything. Everything that is occurring is

occurring there. Things are also occurring in the nirmanakaya, the form realm, the manifest realm, where whatever was happening in the ephemeral realm takes form. Like, we're sitting here, here's my iPhone, this is a mic, that's the nirmanakaya. In between is the sambhogakaya, or the, it's called the desire realm. It's the realm of communication, of music, of symbol, of semiotics. And it's between the dharmakaya and the nirmanakaya. And it's occurring to me that process is inhabiting the sambhogakaya the world of semiotics and the being able to read the causes and conditions coming together exactly yeah and being able to read and you have to like be in perpetual state of uncertainty because the minute you think you

know then you're missing something and so i think to not prefer some people prefer the dharmakaya they want to be in space some people prefer the Dharmakaya, they want to be in space. Some people prefer the Nirmanakaya, just want to see the result. You know, the Dharmakaya maybe is associated with inspiration. But very few people sort of like to be in the middle. But you have to be in all three, everything's happening in all three realms at one time. So I think process is not choosing between the idea, the process, and the result, but navigating continually between those three points, seeing it as one continuum. Does that sound right to you?

No, I do. I do. And particularly, you know, I use the example of writing a book. I think that's the case. It's operating and you're sitting there physically typing away, but there's also a lot of other things going on. Something is coming to you from somewhere. Yeah. Especially writing a book.

It's all you're like almost flipping violently between the three on a nonstop basis. It's true. And don't you look at what you wrote and go, what? Yeah, there are moments where I've like literally like the next day, I'm like, where'd that come from? Yeah, you said that. I know. One of the Dharmakaya said it.

My favorite, I've written a couple of books now, and someone will say, you know, I read that thing in your book, and when you said X, Y, and Z, and I will look at them, and I'll say, I don't think I ever wrote that. I've had that same conversation. Me too.

Oh, I thought it was helpful. I like that person who wrote that. Sounds much more helpful than I have. I thought I thought it at one point, but I didn't realize it was in print anyway. Yeah, no, it's pretty interesting. So why don't we circle around to our final topic of the day. So I was actually going to do this separately

just as a short and sweet riff, but I'm actually going to do this with you guys here because I'm, I think you probably going to have much better insight than me and I would love to tap your wisdom on it. So this was something that came in from one of our listeners who asked, how do you feel with people who don't, don't like you? And this is in parentheses, platonically. It's the one thing I'm not sure I could find. And she was referencing a conversation I had with Brene Brown in Brene's work. Like many organizations, I don't have a choice who I can be around or not. And it sucks to know that they don't like you.

You can just tell. Just by body language, voice tone, one can tell. I'm a pretty shy and awkward gal. How do you deal with social rejection in the workplace? I'm a very sensitive person, and I'm a feeler over anything else. I would love to get your opinion. And I would love to get both of your sense on this. Well, I've never met anyone that doesn't like me, so I don't really have this.

You probably heard of other people that that happens to. Something about once a year. Coming from his throne of denial. I mean, I live in a weird world. It takes a very particular type of troll to clown Buddhist authors. Like really dedicated memes and things like that. But once a year, someone emerges. And I find myself in good company. It's like, oh, someone does a really disrespectful clown campaign against me, but also like Sharon Salzberg and maybe Thich Nhat Hanh or someone like really.

It's like this. So my takeaway at this point is like, wow, what great company I'm in. And I always reflect on my sister wrote a book. It came out about 10 years ago. And it was right when it came out and I was sitting in her kitchen. She pulled up amazon reviews which is you know right yeah we all know this sort of like the what the highs and lows of amazon reviews and this woman wrote you know this woman wrote this book and it's a horrible book

just meant for people like her and she's a white stuck-up skinny bitch who graduated from duke and you know like all these really things and at the end my sister looked up and goes so nice that she thought i was skinny so for me i mean there's something about not taking things so personally and having a sense of humor that it's developed over time and i I've really struggled with it, to be honest. I don't want to just be like, oh, this is my objective view, like how I work with. I've struggled with this for years of like, oh, you don't like me or you don't like what I do.

And realizing that it's not always about me. Sometimes it might be a little bit about me, but often it's about that person and their positionality and maybe they wish they had done something like this or maybe they come from a very different point of view and they're easily offended. And they probably go through life easily offended by many things. You know, I was, again, to clown a Buddhist author. It's very particular. Like, you must be pissed off by everything.

So that's my personal take to it. Not just consider why doesn't this person like me, but like what is going on with this person? And maybe trying to develop some sense of empathy or at the very least sympathy for someone who's clearly having a hard time. But that's just my takeaway. Yeah, no, I think that makes sense. And I think if the reader, the writer is saying, I can feel that people don't like me. And it hurts me and you know if someone steps up and says i don't like you then you can engage in some way but when you feel this kind of rejection i understand what what she is she what she means it's very painful. And so I think, you know, the first and only thing you can do is, I mean, experience that

sadness without, as you were mentioning earlier, the storyline connected to that sadness, which is these people don't like me because I'm not good enough or because I'm not like them or because i didn't say this or because i didn't do that but instead to feel that ping that knife cut that whatever it feels like to you and you know allow it and if you focus on the, this means this about me and I have to change and nobody likes me, then it's a one-way ticket to Palookaville. You're never coming back from that. But if you can stay with your heart's experience, somehow it creates a kind of intimacy between you and the situation you're in, as opposed to a remove. And then there is some possibility of transformation. But without that, then it just becomes a fight. And, you know, I kind of relate to that question. I felt that a lot in my life, like the two people are talking and I say something and they both look at me and then start talking to each other again, that vibe.

I'm somehow familiar with that. And you just are turned back on your own inner world over and over and over again. And that's not a bad thing. It doesn't make you feel better when your feelings are hurt. But some people have no choice but to inhabit their inner realm. And I guess the final thing I would say is, you know, the traditional practice of loving kindness is really, really useful here. When you feel rejected, when you feel pain, when you feel that you don't fit in, not to do loving kindness for the people that have hurt you, but to do it for yourself,

to just wish yourself well in this sort of formal way. And in the Open Heart Project, my online, because I started a meditation community too, but it's in the cloud. But there's a lot of focus on that, trying to... I just find constantly that, and I'm sure you do too anyone who wants to meditate they sort of come to it with some sense of inadequacy

and finding a way to meet that I'm sure in your work in all three of us is sort of paramount so anyway that's what I would say what do you think? I want to hear your riff

I didn't actually create the riff yet. I was just waiting for you guys to do it for me. I totally agree with what you guys are saying. My sense is that dissociating the story is a huge part of it, because it's very often it's like the pain is not just like they don't like me, but it's like they don't like me because of this, which may be completely differently. A lot of times, you know, they're just, A, I think, and then also sort of like, Susan,

what you were saying is like, rather than saying, oh no, I'm just wrong. They actually really like me, but they're just busy. Maybe they actually don't like you. So to me, it's kind of like, I think a lot of, you know, like pop psychology is like, no, it's just, you know, they really do like you. There's no reason for them not to like you. It's like, maybe they actually don't like you. Maybe you're just not their people.

And then it's like, and that's actually okay. Because they're not your people. Right. You know, and then challenges, you know, this wonderful listener who shared this and wrote in, you said, well, what if you're working with these people and you're like you're like the way that you are in your living makes it so that you're surrounded by them every day. Like, how do you get comfortable with the fact that you're now like, you can't just walk away and choose a different set of friends because these are people that are just, somebody else has put them in your orbit and less than until you actually choose to leave that professional

scenario, you know, like they're going to be in your orbit. Like, how do you just get okay with that? And I think that, you know, I don't know if I have a really good answer to that other than just dissociating the story, knowing that like they may just be busy or that you just may genuinely be different people with different interests, engaging, you know, socially in different ways.

And you just kind of like, you know, do what you can to be with that. And then to, I don't know how you just let that go. I don't know. I don't have a really good answer for just be okay. It was funny because she referenced my conversation with Brene. And Brene, you know, who's has, you know, like now developed the massive public persona. And we all know, going along with that, like Lojo, what you were saying about the Amazon reviews and YouTube comments are the worst on the planet.

They're sort of replaced dig comments after. And Brene and I talked about this in our conversation. And what she essentially said to me, she's like, I have no intake of anything anybody says who is not also at the moment in the arena yeah in the way that i really appreciate that and i think that's also sometimes a powerful thing because sometimes you'll get pushback or you'll get like you know senses of dislike but sometimes you know like if you kind of like zoom the lens and ask well

is it because this person is in some way um like i'm engaging in something i'm full contact and um there's stuff that's happening and there's there's um you know the people who i'm sensing this from are not so i'm not sure i understand what she means there should no intake meaning i don't i don't give it credence i don't let it touch me i don't because they're not active i love this term in the arena because it's like to go back to what we're talking about with process it's you're struggling you're fighting it out you're figuring this stuff out and it's so easy from someone up in the stands yeah to throw a barb at you right so like why let that person in the stands actually but if someone's actually in the arena struggling as well, that somehow, in my own experience, I don't like them or whatever, it doesn't affect me as much as Susan Piver,

who has done similar work, saying, I don't really like Ishii Susan because I have the slightest critique of my work and I would crumble underneath that compared to whatever massive thing someone who's not in the arena would say. And I really love that idea. Yeah, it's funny.

I recently had a conversation with Nancy Duarte and Patty Sanchez. And Nancy runs an eponymous firm called Duarte, which is the world's top presentation design firm, Silicon Valley. And Patty is her chief strategy person. They just wrote a book. And they spent like years and years and like, and they had this thing. And they gave it to a confidant who they really trusted their opinion. And then they literally like had booked a trip to go to Carmel and celebrate they finally finished a manuscript and sort of like on their way down they heard back from this person nancy just shared this story on a recent uh episode the woman

basically said i would have expected more did they turn around they ended up having a basically a effectively a manuscript burning party in Carmel and started from zero. Wow. And was the critique accurate? They believe so, yeah. That's awesome. You know what? That is awesome.

That's it. Because that person, they believe to be in the arena. And they're like, this person is somebody who needs to be listening to you. So sometimes also I think it's being able to delineate who's actually in there, who's bearing the heart and soul, who's doing the work, who's going to that raw, vulnerable place. Is that something which makes sense to actually consider? And is there just hard data, is there information some way in this engagement that I find really uncomfortable

that I should be processing because it's becoming a pattern which moves beyond here? Or is it literally just I live in the world differently, I operate differently than this person does. We're not the same people. They don't have to like me. I don't like them. And we can kind of coexist and just be okay with that.

Unless you make a comment on my blog post. Because I do engage those. Yeah. And I don't i everything comes into moderation i don't not publish the things that are mean unless it's just crude and then i don't publish it but if it's i think you're stupid and you know which i get i actually get from time to time when i write things about compassion for enemies that makes makes people very, very upset. And people will give me, like, throwaway comments, like, you're stupid, or, you know, you're... One of my favorite ones was, you're just some, like, privileged white person.

They didn't say skinny, but some privileged white person who probably uses an Apple computer. Well, you know, weird. I'm like, if you put, I don't read Amazon reviews or YouTube things. If you put stuff there, that's your problem. But if you come in my house and you diss me, then we're going to have a conversation. So I used to offer the Open Heart Project meditation instruction for free. And I used to offer the Open Heart Project meditation instruction for free. And I still offer it for free. But there's another subscriber version that's not free. And many people got very upset with me when I started charging. And not many, but enough so that it get emails and comments. And I would engage each one. I'm curious how you guys do it. But I would say the truth. It hurts me that

you feel this way. It's not, I don't see myself that way. Your words have impact on me. And if this isn't for you, it's not for you, but I want you to know this hurt me. And every time some sort of actual dialogue has occurred where the person has come back to me and said, except for one person, the person has come back to me and said something like, I'm hurt too. I can't afford this. Or I thought you, you know, someone else lied to me and blah, blah, blah. With one exception. And the one exception said, oh, just go cry with your friends, Deepak and Oprah. But other than that, anyway.

We all know that Oprah doesn't cry. Yeah. And I'll just call her when I'm upset anyway. So I just, I know maybe this is a little off topic, but that's someone not liking me. And I feel that I should engage. What do you guys think? Maybe that's a different topic. Yeah. I engaged a lot more in the beginning, and now I pretty much don't ever engage. Unless there's a, if there's a, if I can feel pain in the comment, and I think it can lead to a dialogue, that will actually help. I will, but I don't do that very often anymore. And in fact, most people that I know that started in the world of blogging back when I did have now all shut off their comments because it's just, it's too much. So it just becomes another place to, they don't want to actually engage on that level.

I understand that. Do you have one final thought on this before we wrap? Only that when it can't, like me blogging, I completely agree. When someone actually takes the time to read one of my books, like 60,000 words I sat down and wrote and slaved over, and they actually read it, and then they have feedback or questions or whatever. The moment that my first book came out, I said, I'm going to commit to writing every single person back that emails me about this book. And thus far, I've held to it, and I hope I continue to.

Because I think if they actually have a significant commitment, hours of thinking about what I'm putting out there and then have any sort of response, I'm going to try and get back to them. That's my only caveat to that. Cool. So I've been hanging out, and we've been hanging out this week with guests in residence, Lojo Rinsler and Susan Piver. They were with us last week.

If you haven't listened to that, go check it out. And we'll be here with one final week next week too. And Lodra, where can people find you? LodraRinsler.com or on social media. It's very easy when you have the name Lodra Rinsler to just, if you Google that, you'll find me. And it's R-I-N-Z-L-E-R. Yeah, you got it.

And Susan? My website, SusanPiper.com, or you can just Google The Open Heart Project. Awesome. Thank you, guys. Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real, unscripted conversations and ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that, too, and if you enjoy what we're up to, ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that too, and if you enjoy what we're up to,

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