Good Life Project - Susan Piver | The Enneagram: A Powerful, Different Take on a Life-changing Tool

Episode Date: September 8, 2022

When you hear the word - enneagram, you likely have one of three replies: Oh, yay, can’t get enough of the enneagram. Oh please, aNOTHer podcast about the enneagram? Or, ummmm, what’s the enneagram?!Well, no matter where you fall on that spectrum, good news. You're about to discover one of the most powerful personal insight tools ever created, AND in a way you’ve never heard it explained before. Not just as a tool for personal awakening and transformation, but also as a game-changing lever to transform your personal and professional relationships, see things you never saw, understand people with a depth you never imagined possible - and effect change in the state of culture, society, the world even. ​​This conversation, with a member of my chosen family, legendary Buddhist teacher, founder of the Open Heart Project, and New York Times bestselling author, Susan Piver, will not only rock your understanding of the Enneagram, it may well change your life. And, it’s all about her groundbreaking synthesis of the enneagram and Buddhism, or, as Susan calls it, the Buddhist Enneagram, which also happens to be the title of her equally revelatory new book. These new insights are especially important, given the times we live in. In today's world, compassion from a stranger is something you can only hope for as we struggle over our differences in race, religion, gender, politics, and more. The Buddhist Enneagram helps you see and understand others, in a truer, clearer, more nuanced way, then step into relationships with more empathy and compassion. In our conversation today, we dive deeper into the enneagram and its roots, and Susan takes me through her fascinating journey of discovering the tool and using it through a Buddhist lens, and we also explore the ways the enneagram could be an integral guide in our individual and collective transformations to becoming more compassionate, connected, and whole—only if we're willing and brave enough. You can find Susan at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Susan about the 4 Noble Truths of Love.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For a Complete List of Vanity URLs & Discount Codes.Sleep Number: Save 50% on the Sleep Number 360® Limited Edition smart bed. sleepnumber.com/GOODLIFE.This Being Human: Fom the Aga Khan Museum This Being Human is an arts and culture podcast devoted to amplifying the voices of leaders and redefining what it means to be Muslim in today's world. New episodes every other Tuesday. Download and listen today wherever you get your podcasts. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

The things that we long for, love, real wisdom, deep insight, creative self-expression, those are not things we can manufacture. They are only things that we can receive. They just arise when there is space, sometimes. So if you're interested in those things, meditation is a really good practice and something like the Enneagram, which helps you let go of the things you don't like about yourself and the things you like about yourself to just see yourself. Very helpful in creating that very fertile space of receptivity where everything

we really want is already there. Okay. So when you hear the word Enneagram, you likely have one of three replies. Oh, yay. Can't get enough of the Enneagram. That would be one. Oh, please. Another podcast about the Enneagram. That would be two. Or what's the Enneagram? Well, no matter where you fall on that spectrum, good news. You are about to discover one of the most powerful personal insight tools ever created. And in a way you have never heard it explained before, not just as a tool

for personal awakening and transformation, but also as a game-changing lever to transform your personal and professional relationships, see things you never saw, understand people with a depth you never imagined possible, and affect change in the state of culture, society, the world even. This conversation with a member of my chosen family, legendary Buddhist teacher, founder of the Open Heart Project, and New York Times bestselling author, Susan Piver, it'll not only rock your understanding of the Enneagram if you had one before, it may well change your life. And it's all about her groundbreaking synthesis of the Enneagram and Buddhism, or as Susan calls it,

the Buddhist Enneagram, which also happens to be the title of her equally revelatory new book. And these new insights are especially important given the times we live in. In today's world, compassion from a stranger is something you can only hope for as we struggle over our differences and everything from religion, gender, race, politics, and more. In the Buddhist Enneagram, it helps you see and understand others in a truer, clearer, more nuanced way, and then step into relationships with more empathy and compassion. And that includes towards yourself. In today's conversation, we also dive deeper into the Enneagram and its roots.

And Susan takes me through her fascinating journey of discovery of the tool and how she views and utilizes it through a Buddhist lens. We also explore the ways that the Enneagram could be an integral tool in our individual and collective transformations to become more compassionate, connected, and whole, only if we're willing and brave enough. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight risk. We've been hanging out together for so long. You are chosen family. And I thought I knew almost everything about you. And then I discovered that when you're a kid, you see numbers dancing around in the dawn. You got to tell me more about this. Well, it's true. Everything you just said is true. The family part, the chosen family part,

absolutely. And yeah, when I was little, like little, little, four, five, six, I don't know, I would lie in bed and in some half dreamy state, I would see numbers. I don't know if I saw them. I don't know if I saw them in my mind's eye, if they were dancing. I don't know. But in my mind, I saw numbers. And they were not just, here's a six, here's a 12. They were communicating something. I know that sounds very weird and woo woo, and we know each other well enough. So you know'm not woo-woo, not walking around in a wizard hat and flowing garments or anything, but numbers had meaning, I think is a better word than communicated. And sometimes what they said was informative. Sometimes it was funny. None of this was anything I remember, but I guess I thought as you do when you're little, well, this happens to everyone because

that's what you think when you're little. And then I forgot about it. It stopped happening at a certain point. And then when I discovered the Enneagram many years later, there was some connection there for me. Yeah, it was almost like a foreshadowing of there's something about numbers that is going to be a part of your life and a part of your deep fascination for decades coming up. So pay attention to this. So you brought up this thing called the Enneagram, and that's what we're going

to dive into in today's conversation. And I think the Enneagram and also your fascinating sort of Buddhist transformational, I don't even want to call it an overlay because I feel like you see them as one in the same. It's sort of like this blended body of work, set of tools, set of ideas, set of practices, but you have a really fascinating and highly unique take. I've known about the Enneagram for a decade and I've known about it because of you. We spent, I don't know, the better part of a week together, kind of in a jungle-ish area in Mexico 10 years ago with a group of people where you first introduced the idea of the Enneagram to all of us. And I was kind of captivated.

But since then, I've tried to understand what it is and what it isn't. And since then, I feel like also it's all over the place. It is literally there. It is the buzz in all domains, in faith, in work, in life, in relationships. It's almost like you can't turn and not see it. So I'm going to ask you a really hard question to answer, which is not in some universal, this is what it is. But just from your experience in

the Susan Piver lens of if I said, what actually is the Enneagram to you? How would you approach even answering that? Well, of course, it's a fantastic question. And I would say in the simplest way of saying it, Ennea being the Greek prefix for nine, describes nine ways of being. The enneagram is often described as nine personality types, but I think that's too reductionistic. It's nine ways, nine sets of wiring, nine ways of being in the world. And you are one of them. I am one of them. And knowing which one you are and which one I am changes the way we relate to each other and the possibilities for our relationship. So it's a mystery above everything else. It describes nine ways of being, and it helps

you in every aspect of your life. That's the simple answer. Yeah. And you just use that word mystery also, which I think is so appropriate in a lot of different ways, but not the least of which is where it comes from. Because whenever people see sort of these quote typing systems, things like this, and of course, you're like, I have my own methodology. One of the first questions that I've gotten for years is like, where did this come from? What's the basis for this? And I can point to a whole bunch of different things. But when you try and do that in the context of the Enneagram, there is a lot of mythology. There's a lot of story. There's a lot of mystery around it. Yes. If I go on about this too long, just stop me. But it is a mystery. The truth,

the short answer, the TLDR is nobody knows where it comes from. And I have really investigated the answer to this question. The first thing I heard, which many people heard who started studying it when I did, now almost 30 years ago, was it comes from Sufism. And I just said, oh, okay, I don't know anything about Sufism, but that's cool. And then maybe 10 years in, somebody else said to me, there's no connection to Sufism. Okay. There are people who say it's an ancient system from the Middle East, quote unquote, whatever that means. But here's what is known. The first person in recorded history to teach the Enneagram was the Greek Armenian mystic Gurdjieff, George Gurdjieff.

I don't know if that's how you pronounce his first name, but he was like a crazy wisdom master of the 40s and 50s, I believe. And he taught the Enneagram to his students, but only orally, nothing was written down. And he did not teach it as a system of personality. He taught it as ways of understanding the natural world and the cycles that it goes through. When his students said, where does this come from? He, okay, fast forward like 30 years, a South American mystic named Oscar Ichazo walked into his house one day and then walked out the next day with the Enneagram. Obviously, that's just a goofy way of saying it, but he brought it forth. I have no idea what that means, Jonathan. I don't know what that means, but there it was. And what Oscar Hichazo brought forth, because I don't think you can really say authored, discovered is a better word, is what we call the Enneagram of Personality. You're a crusader or you're a tragic romantic, whatever it is. I mean, those aren't his names.

But what we study now, all the factions you mentioned, faith-based factions and workplace investigations, they're debt to Oscar Hichazo, who just died about two years ago or maybe a little less. Anyway, he had a student back then named Claudio Naranjo, a brilliant Chilean psychiatrist who had suffered a vast loss. His 17-year-old son was killed in a motor vehicle accident. He was grief-stricken and he wandered the Chilean desert with Oscar Hichazo and had actual experiences of awakening that stayed with him for a long time. not his whole life, but a long time. And he learned the Enneagram. Then he became a professor at UC Berkeley in the 80s and began to teach the Enneagram to his students, also only verbally, because it was thought to be, and indeed it is, so powerful, so easy to misuse in a manipulative way that he told his students, you can't write this down. And they ignored him and they wrote it down. And the first book that most people know is called The Enneagram by Helen Palmer. And that's how it began. So a short addendum to this is I discovered that Claudio Naranjo, who lived in Berkeley for the rest of his life,

also died about two years ago, was a serious student of Buddhism in a Tibetan Buddhist lineage. And that's what I studied, Tibetan Buddhism, for the past 30 years, along with the Enneagram. So I emailed him saying, have you ever thought about the Enneagram and what's called the five Buddha wisdoms? Also a way of describing people. And I'll be going to be in Berkeley and I'd love to come by and talk to you about it, blah, blah, blah. And he said, okay, come by on this day. And then I bought a plane ticket, Jonathan, from Boston because I had no plans to be in Berkeley. And I went to his house. This is the truth. But everyone should take it with a grain of salt. I said to him at some point, why do people think the Enneagram

came from Sufism? And he said, well, my students in the 80s kept pestering me. So I said, Sufism, to shut them up. He said it in a more elegant way. I said, well, where does it come from? Hand to God. He left the room. He came back with a newspaper, an actual newspaper, not a newspaper on an iPad, and sat down and read me an article from a British paper in the 70s that described this journalist's search for what is called the Sarmoon Brotherhood, which is a very, very obscure notion that there's a wisdom tribe somewhere in the mountains of Afghanistan, Pakistan, protecting the world's wisdom traditions. And according to this journalist, he found them. Then Claudio Naranjo gets up, returns the newspaper to wherever he got it from, comes back, sits down, looks at me and says, do you like Chinese food? And I said, yes. And then we went out to dinner. And that is my story, my friend. That is

my story. One little other piece. This is why the Tibetan Buddhist part is important. In Tibetan Buddhism, there's especially the Nyingma tradition, which we both happen to study in, there's a notion called terma, T-E-R-M-A, which means treasure. And these treasures are referred to teachings that the original pundits and gurus of Buddhism could not share because it would blow people's minds. So they hid teachings in various places. And when these teachings are discovered, whether in the natural world or in someone's mindstream, they appear fully formed. I can't explain it. I do not know if it's true or not. But we have all had the experience of discovering something that was

already in our mind, but we didn't know it was there. You hear a teacher say something and you're like, oh yes, I knew that. I forgot I knew it. So that's the quality of terma. It's ever present. It's not authored. It's discovered. So I said to him, Claudio, I feel like the Enneagram is a terma. And he said, well, I never thought of that, which I think is BS. Yes, it is. So it's a self-existing form of wisdom is my best answer. What do you think? I think we all like to, there's like a rational part, at least of my brain that likes to say, well, like, you know, like walk me through the steps of how this was quote developed. You know, what were the iterations? How was it tested? How was it refined? How was that optimized?

And yet that's not the Enneagram, the idea that as a term that she resonates deeply with me because it feels so fully formed. It feels so deeply relevant and resonant to nearly every person. I know. And true that it's, how could it not be of that origin? Yes, I agree. By process of elimination, that's the only reasoning that makes sense. And yeah, it's good to know where things come from. It's good to test you beyond conventional thought patterns. So of course, they cannot be of conventional thought patterns. This is, again, 30 years for me, which is not a very long time

in the great scheme of things. But in my discovery, in my research, my contemplation of these wisdom traditions, they are not subject to my reasoning for better and worse. They just are. They just are. Which is a hard thing to wrap your head around. And maybe it's because I'm moving a little bit further into my life, but I have increasingly come to a point of surrender where there are some things where the experience of them just

feels it is what it is. And even if I can't identify a reverse engineer, like all the steps that got it to this place, the experience that I have with an idea, with a body of wisdom, with an insight, with a methodology, sometimes will just be so deeply true that I stopped caring about even where it came from or trying to deconstruct it and just say to myself, huh, how can this help me live my life and just explore that side of it? The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. May mayday we've been compromised the pilot's a hitman i knew you're gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what's the difference between me and you you're gonna die don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot

flight risk So you shared, in addition to this 30-year exploration of the Enneagram, you also have this really long-standing, probably around a similar amount of time, deep study of Buddhism. So it's been this dual, it's been like this parallel path for you all along. And you decided, I know this has been spinning in your head for years now, you're like, how do these things weave together? How do you even try and sit down and think about writing something mildly coherent that somehow expresses how these two traditions, these deep and rich set of insights and practices weave together into this complementary

experience, which you've done now with the Buddhist Enneagram, which is an astonishing body of work. And I've read everything that you've written. And we've talked about this in a lot of different ways for years. Before we dive into some of the big ideas in here, I'm also just curious for you as a human being, as a creator, as a writer, and somebody who's both deeply fascinated by these bodies of work and also reverent of them, how do you even wrap your head around sitting down to create something that in some way you feel doesn't do harm to both the ideas individually and collectively? Such a great question. And I also appreciate you

noting the characteristic of reverence because it is really true. And for myself, I have what I like to call the blessing of no credentials. I'm not a therapist. I'm not a trained whatever, but I have been practicing these things. And so when I sat down to write this, I, it almost killed me. First of all, it was the hardest writing thing I've ever tried. But what I wanted to do was report my personal experience of practicing and studying both of these things. So rather than it's an academic or an intellectual overview, this is how it actually helped me, and maybe it will help you. I hope so. That's why I'm sharing it. In Buddhism, of course, there's tremendous emphasis on the potency of compassion and the

vastness of compassion and its relationship to full enlightenment. And there's tremendous emphasis on a kind of fierce wakefulness that is often obscured by habitual thought patterns. I realized after a long time, 10 years or so, that for me to put these teachings on compassion and presence or wakefulness into my actual life, outside of a book, or you think, oh, that sounds really cool. To do it, I found that the Enneagram was always at my side, helping me experience compassion, investigate compassion, offer it, receive it. It was by far the most sophisticated and accurate tool, as well as a tool for letting go of habitual thought patterns that prevent me and others from seeing clearly. So it so happened that they went together

in my experience. And I thought, well, this is nice for me. And so it was. And it took like probably another 10 years before I thought, oh, maybe I could share this. Maybe I could share this. Does that answer the question? Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating when I think about just the journey of creating, of thinking this. And most people who think about, oh, I have an idea I'm going to develop it.

I'm going to turn it into something that I share with the world. Given the pace of life and creation right now, the notion of spending decades on something like this, I'm fascinated by it because so many of us are sort of like, just ship it, make something that's good enough, make something that's like, and if you're not mildly embarrassed by what you put into the world, you've waited too long. That's funny. And I have certainly done that plenty of times myself. So just the notion of creating something that is literally decades in the making and not sharing it with people, letting it incubate for years and years and years until it finally coalesces into a moment and something that you feel like, okay, it's time. I feel like that is such a rare experience these days. It's, I don't know if I've ever done that, to be honest with you. And I've created, I'm a maker,

I've created a lot of things. But the idea of letting something breathe and form and take shape almost subconsciously over a really long period of time until finally it starts to take like more form. It's incredibly powerful. And I would imagine somewhat alien to so many people. Well, there's so many interesting points in there. I so appreciate you noticing that. And I actually never thought about it in that way. I just thought, oh, these are things I'm interested in. And, oh, I happen to become a Buddhist teacher. And someone asked a question. I'm like, you know, I think they might benefit from knowing the Enneagram. So it was very organic. And also I felt on good days humbled and on bad days, just fully inadequate, just completely like, don't even try this because you're not good

enough. And you know, on some days that was really true. So it was very organic and it was so embarrassing to write. It was so hard. And you know this experience because you're a writer. You look at something you've written and you're like, well, that's pretty good. And then you look at the same thing the next day and you're like, that is horrible. What was I thinking? And then you might look at it again. Well, actually it's not that bad. I don't know what's going on between you and the words because the words don't change. That experience with this book was out of control. I spent so many nights crying, thinking it's horrible, I'm terrible, blah, blah, blah, more than other books because that always happens to some degree.

But I want to push back a little bit on the, I don't think I've ever done this, P.S. my initials start with Jonathan Fields, because there's a through line in your life of things that interest you and that you investigate. And maybe sometimes it looks like the law and sometimes it looked like yoga and other times it looked like sparkotypes and maybe it looked like camp and this podcast, but there's something in there that is a through line and that keeps incubating. I'm not just saying that to be nice. I see that in you. And it makes me a moment ago before we started recording about what would it be like to slow down in life and blah, blah, blah. And we also talked a little bit about the difference between sort of giving into your experience as opposed to

trying to author it or scope it out, you know, specify it. And specify, plan, those are really good things. But there are certain things that we long for that don't come from that kind of view. And I think we both are kind of in this place where we're thinking, at least I am, I'm not authoring my life anymore. I'm shepherding it. It has its own energy. It wants to go somewhere. Sometimes it likes me, sometimes it doesn't. But can I see underneath all the conventional surfaces to find out what my life wants to be. I know that that's your through line in some way. And the Enneagram is an incredible support. It keeps you on that path of discovery. Of course, I agree with you. There is a through line that has run through my entire adult life, which is how do we actually exist and live a more meaningful life? And that's been a deep curiosity. It's fueled everything for me and all the creation that has come from it. But you also brought up something that I don't want to glance past

because this is such an important notion that you said we're both grappling with, but I feel like we're in this moment right now. And it's this notion of trying to achieve and accomplish by creating the most detailed, granular, well-researched, well-thought-out playbook ever on the planet, and then trying to execute it as much as humanly possible without getting distracted or diverging from the path so that you can get this thing, the golden ring of life, which in no small part is the way that I've lived my life, versus a much more allowing approach, a deeper, like, let me get to the fundamental, the essence of what animates me, what awakens me,

and just open to that and see what unfolds, which intuitively I feel like would bring so much more grace and ease to all of our lives if we took that lens. But thinking about it is also simultaneously somewhat terrifying to me. Sure. Because it means letting go of that playbook. That means a certain amount of surrender and faith. I don't know about you, but I struggle with that. Oh, no, I've never struggled with that. Yeah, yeah.

It's a groundless approach to life rather than a grounded approach. I always try to remind myself of something said by the great and controversial meditation master, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, which is, you're falling through the air. Nothing to hold on to. No parachute. That's the truth, by the way. That's the bad news. The good news is there is no ground. So whenever I remind myself of that, I think, I don't know if that's true, but it feels much better to act as if it was. And so far, I've not found ground. And the entire Buddhist path is built on the first noble truth, life is impermanent. So it is scary, but it's the noble journey, I think, of being human. And the things that we long for, and not just Susan and Jonathan, but probably everyone, love, real wisdom, deep insight, creative self-expression. Let's just call it those four. Those are the big four in my world, and I believe in yours too.

Those are not things we can manufacture. I've tried. They are only things that we can receive. They just arise when there is space. Sometimes. But no matter how good a plan you have for, I will be wise, deeply wise, by studying this and doing that and going here, not going to work. But when you let go of the striving, which sometimes is very necessary, and just receive, just be, you create a space of

receptivity, which is really what meditation practice is, is creating that space of receptivity. And then there's no guarantees what's going to happen in there. Usually you just start crying because you see how vulnerable the whole world is. But that's where you discover wisdom and love and insight rather than constructing them. So if you're interested in those things, and I know you are, meditation is a really good practice and something like the Enneagram, which helps you let go of the things you don't like about yourself and the things you like about yourself to just see yourself. Very helpful in creating that very fertile space of receptivity where everything we really want is already there, according to the lore.

And the experience of these types. I think a lot of people have looked at the Enneagram in the context of this conversation and also just in all sorts of different domains as, okay, so here's a tool that allows me to see myself more clearly. And potentially for those who are interested in going beyond their own self-interest, like see others more clearly and maybe better understand how to relate to them and relate to myself more ease with more confidence. And I feel like that has been the way

that the Enneagram has been centered in conversation in the way that I've heard it. And you certainly don't discount. That's a part of what you offer. This is a set of tools that offer clarity in understanding yourself and others. But there's something much bigger that you also invite us

into, which is the Enneagram, these nine different types of which each one of us relate to, that they are also the foundation of a process, what you describe as an arc of transformation. And this is in part also where the Buddhism mixes in with the Enneagram. Take me deeper into this notion. I'd love to. So both Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism in particular, and the Enneagram have the notion of poison and medicine. That's what it's called in Tibetan Buddhism. And in the Enneagram, it's called passion and virtue.

Passion here meaning not good. And the idea in both cases is that the poison and the medicine are the same. So you don't get rid of the poison and then get the medicine. You know, we could use aspirin for an example. It's just aspirin. If you take it when you have a headache, it's a medicine. But if you take 2,000 of them, it's a poison. So the aspirin is not different. So each Enneagram type has its

aspirin equivalent that is the gateway or the inseparable already from the medicine. So for example, the poison, the passion of one, Enneagram type one, is called anger. We all know what that is. The virtue is called serenity. So how are anger and serenity the same? That's a good question. anger from its narrative. I'm mad at you because, or if this hadn't happened, or now I'm going to do that. And you just feel anger, which is not pleasant, but you don't act and you don't add storylines to it. You come into possession of something very, very awake because anger is one-pointed, very focused. You're not going to fall asleep when you're angry because those things are incompatible. But if you let go of the narrative of the story, why and how and so on, in the Buddhist view, you are in possession of the wisdom corollary of anger, which is called mirror-like wisdom. You just reflect everything accurately. It's very fierce. It's very sharp. It's very cool.

Everything that happens is reflected back to the person or the situation in utter clarity. And if you didn't have anger, you wouldn't have mirror-like wisdom. So ones on the Enneagram have anger. The serenity piece is not everything's cool. I'm fine. I never get angry. It's the, I see clearly. I see clearly, and guess what? I still see clearly. And that is a kind of serenity. I'm not going on this ride. What does this mean? Who are you? What should I say? Clear, clear, clear. So that is a very profound kind of serenity. And if you didn't have the anger, you wouldn't have the serenity, aka mirror-like wisdom. So that's an example of

how they just seamlessly love each other, Buddhism and the Enneagram. When you look at that, and it's interesting when you were describing the use of the word passion in the context of the Enneagram, which is not like this, the way that most people use it in popular conversation. Oh, I'm so passionate about this as a really good thing. I'll follow this thing. What popped into my mind also was there's actually some fascinating research on passion. Of course, my mind always goes to the rational and the research, right? Which describes two different expressions of passion. And the language that's used in literature is harmonious passion versus obsessive passion. And they basically say it's the same thing, but it can be expressed in a way which is either constructive and spacious and

creative or neurotic and destructive and constricting. It's interesting to hear you describe it because you're just kind of describing a similar thing, if I'm hearing you right. That's very interesting. I agree. And yes, it is a similar thing, if I'm hearing you right. That's very interesting. I agree. And yes, it is a similar thing. And I'm not sure who chose the word passion, but it is definitely in that second negative definition of something obsessive. Or obsessive doesn't necessarily mean OCD obsessive, but more like I obsessively believe that this is reality and I can't see around it because letting go of what I think reality is, is much too frightening.

So I'm going to be passionate in a bad way about this way of being that is actually obscuring a larger vista. That's very interesting, that research. It's like everyone's coming at these questions from different angles and somehow using sometimes similar and sometimes different language, but coming to similar conclusions in different ways and different domains. So if we build on these notions of what you just described, and we dive into this notion of transformation, like you offer these arcs of transformation. And what we're talking about, it sounds like is transformation from what to to what? When I think about transformation, okay, so you start here and you end there. So what is the from and the to that we're talking about when you talk about transformation? probably mangle a few lines from the T.S. Eliot poem, Little Giddings, where he says, and I'm probably paraphrasing, the end of all our journeying shall be to arrive at the place

where we started and to know it for the first time. That's how I would describe the journey that we're on. You're already here. You already are you. You started here. And where you started, the whole journey is back to you, but you see it for the first time. So a corollary in Buddhism is breath awareness meditation, actually, which is the most common kind of practice, shamatha, vipassana, meditation, breath awareness. And it's the foundational practice for all the other guru yogas or mantras or visualizations that you might do. This is always the foundation. So people become mistakenly think that it's the foundational practice because it's the beginners, the beginner's practice. However, if you go on this whole journey in the Buddhist view, in any case, you come back to this practice at the end because it is the ultimate practice as well as the foundational practice.

But when you start doing it, you can't see how ultimate it is. So you start and you may go on a journey and then you come back and you do the same practice as the highest practice, but it's a whole different way of holding it. And what happened to you on that journey to offer you this gift of holding it in a different way? I don't know, but that's the journey. So it's really, it's a journey back to yourself, but it's a journey to seeing yourself as you've always been, but never known almost. Maybe that's not the language for it. as you've always been, but never known almost. Maybe that's not the language for it. The Apple Watch Series We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Where do suffering and liberation play into this? Well, we could look at that in one of two ways. First, the relative way of looking at it and the absolute or ultimate way of looking at it. There are Advaita teachers, non-dual teachers, who say the Enneagram is who you are not. So that's very interesting and very helpful. It's the persona that we've constructed that stands in between us and liberation. It also shows us the way to liberation,

because we have to start somewhere so we can start with this persona. That's one way of looking at it, probably the best way. And then in the relative plane, that would lead potentially to ultimate liberation. But relative liberation, liberation from sorrow and depression and rage and chaos, that is also possible through study of the Enneagram or any other wisdom tradition. because it helps you recalibrate in each moment away from delusion and back to hopefully more clear seeing. So you think, well, I'm an Enneagram one, so I'm always going to see things in terms of right or wrong. But when that happens, now I can question it and recalibrate and recenter myself through these ideas to alleviate and quell suffering for myself and others. Because I'm not telling myself a whole bunch of crazy stories or fewer crazy stories anyway. So the Enneagram is not just a tool to see yourself and others more clearly and relate to yourself and others more clearly. It is also a tool to help through the process of transforming, of becoming, or stripping away that which doesn't allow you to

see yourself as you truly are. I would say so, absolutely. And interestingly, other teachers, great teachers, would say something totally different. This is a way to recognize the presence of Jesus in your life, or this is a way to become more effective and more powerful in your work or more kind in your relationships. And everybody's right. Everybody's right. We're all co-authoring the Enneagram, I would say. And it's just so interesting. Like meditation and mindfulness, quote unquote, can be used as a path to liberation, full enlightenment. I'm a Buddha now, PS I'm not. Or like, I want to be more patient with my kids or be a better athlete. Yeah, it can be used for all those things. So it will respond to what you want it to do.

And I guess part of it is how you will step into that process, that arc of transformation is informed in no small way by what your type is. So it's interesting to me because you describe the, like you said earlier in the conversation, people often associate names with the nine different types or they sort of apply these names to them. You describe them in a very different way. You describe each one of the types through a warriorship path. So rather than just nine types or nine ways of being, you also describe them as nine paths of warriorship. I am fascinated by this. And I'd love to get a little bit more granular. Can we kind of walk through these different nine types in the context of how they're each a path to warriorship, a path to transformation? I would love that. I would love that. So a warrior, as I was taught in my Buddhist training, this is where it begins. A warrior is one who is not afraid of themself. Oh, okay. That's the definition. Well, good luck to me because I'm terrified of myself and my life.

And am I doing this well? And what's going to happen and all those things. So if a warrior is one who is not afraid of themself, the Enneagram shines a light on your whole self, including your blind spots. And that gives you the opportunity to practice warriorship. And each of the warriors of the nine has a gift. These are my observations, by the way. These are not facts. So for one, I call the warrior of exertion because they are endlessly focused on correcting error. And that's the sort of prosaic way of saying it.

They're also endlessly focused on making things right for themselves and others. I think Martin Luther King was a one. Most Enneagram teachers say he was an eight, but I think he was a one. There's this complete dedication, exertion in working on behalf of others along the lines of right and wrong. Very, very powerful and important. Two, I call the warrior of love because this is the type on the Enneagram that can feel into the presence of another very quickly and on bad days manipulate that ability, use that ability to manipulate. And on good days, they have a capacity for love that is unparalleled because they can feel where you are in space. They can feel your heart in

their own heart. So that's very profound. The other eight of us can't do that as well. compare it to love or Martin Luther King. But, oh no, it's a profound, profound gift. I can wade through the muck and mire of being human and keep my eye on where I'm going, and I can go there, and I can bring others there. And whatever comes my way, I will make part of the journey so they can accomplish on a profound level. I call four the warrior of poetics. Fours are like tuning forks. It's my favorite way of describing them. If you hold, if you don't know what a tuning fork is, Google it, you'll find a picture. If you hold two tuning forks, one in each hand, and you hit one, the other one will start to vibrate. And that's what fours do. They vibrate in response to whatever is present and can feel.

It can be a very self-absorbed position, and I say that as a four myself. But it can also be a way of seeing perpetually what's under the surface and then the poetics of what's happening. Not only the facts, not only the patterns, but the poetics. That's a wonderful gift. Five, I call the warrior of clear seeing because they're focused on knowing. What can be known here? Everybody likes to know things, but fives are happy to just fall backwards into a sea of information and research and knowing. I see Jonathan smiling here.

And love learning and knowing for the sake of learning and knowing. So they're not hamstrung by what will make this work in the commercial realm, although they might be able to know that too, certainly. Or what will I look like if I appear to know this? They're just the pure, purity of knowing. Six, I call the warrior of truth. Six is a very complex point on the Enneagram. The warrior of truth, because sixes have as the reflexive response to everything, doubt, questioning. They're the second guessers. Is that really true? Are you really who you say you are? Are you really going to do that thing? Is this institution really functioning the way it says on their website?

So they're always looking below the hood. And they're never satisfied with what they find. There was something else to look for. So they can stand in truth. Let me just tell you a very quick anecdote that I included in the book about the energy of six is when I was on a very fun family vacation to Auschwitz, Piver family, idea of a good time. Let's go teach our children about this and so on. And our tour guide was Polish and he lived a mile or two and this was his job. And I said to him, at one point, we're waiting to go into a building. What is it like to live so close to someplace like this?

And without missing a beat, he said, how far away is far enough? And that was for a six, there is no distance to go from the truth. There is no place you can go where you're too close to the truth. You want to be right on it. Seven, I call the warrior of magic because they are always seeing what's possible. What's not here yet, but what could be. What could I conjure? What could we conjure? That's magic. And eight, I call the warrior of power because this is the type on the Enneagram that is constantly exhibiting their strength, which is real.

And on bad days, it's to dominate others. And on good days, it's to protect others. So power is often misused, vastly misused. And eights can misuse it too, certainly, but they have the capacity to use power for good. The rest of us stumble around in power, at least speaking for myself, but there's an elegance to the way an eight can use power as a warrior, not to defeat, but to honor and protect. Nine, I call the bodhisattva warrior. Bodhisattva means awakened being. Nines are the kind of people who can see all points of view, everyone's point of view, except their own. But when you can take your seat in your life and still see everyone's point of view, no one is excluded from this world. Everyone's point of view has something valid in it, which can often seem horribly untrue. But nines can go see what you see as if they were looking through your

eyes, not looking at what you see through their own. So that's a very high and potent form of warriorship, I would say. I mean, when you look at all nine of those, it's funny, as you're describing each one of them, in various different ways, I was thinking, I want to be that. I want to be that. And I'm pretty comfortable at this point that I am very likely a five in this convention. Although interestingly, some of the core descriptors that I've read and actually that you offer around that five type feel completely alien to me. For example, sort of a tendency towards darkness or depressiveness, really going inward. There's a discernment that comes along with it and a deep knowing that comes along with that also that I absolutely have. And at the same time, I am sort of naturally

wired to see possibility, even when things get really hard, to not tip into that space. So it's interesting. I think when we talk about the Enneagram, there tends to be this notion to kind of say, like, I need to check all the boxes. And A, who knows where the boxes came from? But I think one of the tendencies that tends to happen when people become exposed to the body of work especially in this context because now we're saying this is in part about being able to see yourself more clearly but also it is also a gateway to your ability to transform to liberate to feel and see and be in the world the way that you want to be more more clearly more effectively with more grace and ease that's's appealing. That's alluring.

So a lot of people want to quote, get it right. And is there a get it right option in the context of everything that we're talking about? Yes, I think there is. So if you want to feel, live, be with more ease and grace. The only way, as far as I know, is self-acceptance. Not trying to fashion yourself into something else, but accepting who you are. Then there's a lot of ease. So I'll give you an example briefly. For many years, most of my life, I was very upset with myself for not being a good friend to people I really love. I just wished I could be a better friend. And I've lost friends because they're like, where are you? You're not in my life.

Yeah, I guess I'm not, but I love you. I really do. And then when I realized I was a four, and this is certainly not true of all fours, I saw that I'm never going to be that kind of friend who will, let's hang out, let's go do something, let's spend a day together, let me call you, how are you doing? No. I don't know why, but that's never going to be the kind of friend I am. But if you're being born or dying, ring me up because I will be your best friend, because I will stand with you, not as a point of principle, but because I know how to do that as far as I know.

So that's the kind of friend I am. And when I stopped trying to be a different kind of friend in this particular, not very massively huge, important example, but just started seeing this is where I can shine as a friend. I relaxed a lot and I stopped trying to do the things that I thought I should do and instead claimed the things that I actually could do. And so that times a million is what you can get. I get who I am and how I do friendship and how I do work and how I do love and how I do food and all these various things. And then it doesn't mean everyone or anyone has to do it that way, but you know who you are. And that's also called being genuine and genuine and easeful are identical in my opinion.

Yeah. So it's a reframing of the feeling we so yearn for isn't when I become, when I start here and then I become this other thing. It is really when I allow myself to just be as I am and accept that fully and completely and revel in the fat, in all of it without judgment, which is powerful, but scary also. What's scary? What's the scary part? I think because I wonder whether so many of us actually don't allow us to go there. Don't allow us to see ourselves that way. Don't step into that space because there are a set of truths, there are a set of experiences about it that we're not entirely

sure we're comfortable with. And it means being with them. It means owning them. It means letting go of judging them and just accepting this is who I am and that's actually okay. So there's a lot of discomfort that I think we, or I'll use me, associate with that journey back to yourself. Yes. People are fond of saying, if you want to love someone else, you have to love yourself first. And I've never really quite agreed with that. I think someone else to love someone else, you have to love yourself first. And I've never really quite agreed with that. I think someone else can love you and then you see yourself through the eyes of love and it can work, go both ways. But I think when people say in order to love another, you have to love yourself. This is how I would define what it means to love yourself, not I'm awesome or everything. I just love me. Not that, but I

embrace me. I am with me. I see the flaws of me and the beauty of me, and this is me. And then I would call that self-love. We've been talking largely about the Enneagram and Buddhism and the Buddhist Enneagram in the context of individuals, in the context of our own journey, our own arc of transformation. Buddhism in no small part though really explores a broader sense of transformation, of awakening, of compassion towards the community at large. When you think about the Enneagram in that context, do you see it also as a tool for a broader transformation of society, not just transforming us as individuals, but also transforming us as sources of compassion, transforming culture more broadly to have

more compassion, to have more love, to have more peace and ease. I do. I do see that possibility. My brain isn't wired to think along those lines, so I don't have particular ideas about it. But what I do have ideas about is if we can enter into arguments with our fellow human beings, personal arguments or societal arguments, with the capacity to listen, then everything changes. And I'm not being hyperbolic. Everything changes. And when I think what other people are saying, that I know what it means because I know what have meant if I said it, it's over. But if I can hear what other people are saying through what they mean, rather than what it would have meant if it came from me, endless space opens up. And I don't know how anyone

would go about one day without cultivating that skill of seeing you, not you through my lens, but knowing how to put my lens down. It's not going anywhere, but knowing it's just one of nine. I think it has the capacity to change everything. And it's really not easy. I mean, obviously it's not easy, but what I mean is not easy is to find your type. It's not always that easy, but just to allow into your mind the idea that I have one perspective, but there's eight other ones in the room. Could I discover them? It's just you're less trapped by yourself and more able to connect with others. I'm curious, just to really bring this point home.

Does a moment or story or experience or interaction that might really illuminate what you're describing come to mind? Yes, but they're not societal. They're personal, I would say. So things from my own life. So I used to work with someone, I used to have a boss who was a seven, the kind that only see possibilities, the visionaries. And he really was a visionary, very genius guy. And he hired me to create some things for his company. And I would run into what I would call problems because there were problems. And I would say to him, hey, I ran into a problem. Can we find some time to talk about it?

And he would just zone out, no interest in me and my problem. And that spun me out. Like, am I a loser? No, he is, blah, blah is blah blah maybe i should know these things that i don't know agitation that kept me up at night and then when i realized oh he's a seven he's not interested in problems he's interested in possibilities i would say to him i have an idea and i would like your feedback oh, yeah, let's talk about that because he loves ideas. But I could say my problem as an idea because one could do that.

And I did want his feedback. But just that slight shift in phrasing opened the door, opened the door completely. And then we could talk about my problem. But if I didn't know the Enneagram, I would have just kept thinking I suck or he sucks or something like that. It's a tiny moment, but that writ large is everything. Yeah. I mean, because you multiply that across hundreds of millions of people and trillions of conversations throughout the day that lead to friction and misunderstanding and defensiveness and the destruction of relationships and destruction of possibility. And if you can rewire that, the potential effect of that at scale is unfathomable. As you're talking, the golden rule popped into my head and I'm like, the golden rule is wrong according to this.

That's so funny. Yeah. Don't do unto others as you would do unto yourself. That too, but do unto others as they would do unto themselves might be interesting too. Yeah. That's like the Enneagram sort of like helps you understand that side of the equation. So interesting. So, you know, zooming the lens out, it's really when you think about the world, the state of the world right now, where there is so much polarization, so much conflict, people seem so dug in. It feels like, you know, one of the biggest things that's causing so much of it is an unwillingness across all sides, all individuals, all issues to actually, even for a moment, understand not just where somebody's coming from, their point of view, but who they are and what would lead them to feel that way and translate what's the

lens that they're wearing to feel that way also. The Enneagram feels like a powerful lens that helps you decipher that. Agreed. And Enneagram 2.0 says countries have Enneagram types and businesses have Enneagram types. And once you start looking at that, you see, well, I can't make everything right, of course, but I can know who you are and therefore communicate with you more skillfully. And then we'll see what happens. Yeah, I think we need that more than ever. And that feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation.

In this container of a good life project, if I offer up the phrase, to live a good life, what comes up? Oh. container of a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Oh, the word that comes up is congruence, that there would be congruence between my outer life and my inner life, that they would reflect each other perfectly. That's a good life. Thank you. Thank you, Jonathan. Hey, before you leave, if you'd love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation we had with Susan about the four noble truths of love. You'll find a link to that episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done

so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

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