Good Life Project - The 6 Keys to a Happy and Healthy Life: Dr. Frank Lipman

Episode Date: March 26, 2018

Dr. Frank Lipman, a pioneer in both integrative and functional medicine, is the founder and director of Eleven Eleven Wellness Center in New York City, a New York Times best-selling author and the creator of Be Well, a lifestyle brand that helps people achieve genuine and sustainable life changes. We explored his moving personal journey from South Africa to NYC in a prior episode.Today, drawing from his newest book, How to Be Well, we dive into Lipman's "Good Medicine Mandala" and six pillars of health with specific, often contrarian advice on everything from fasting and fat to sleep and sunshine.Check out our offerings & partners: Join My New Writing Project: Awake at the WheelVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

And a doctor's saying, well, there's no science behind it. And you're saying, I'm not going crazy. I put needles in that person and their headaches have gone. Or I took gluten out of their diet and they feel better. Why should I be waiting for science to prove something that I'm seeing all the time? So if you tuned in recently, you have heard me talking about how I did a seven-day fast. And you may remember me mentioning somebody who I consulted with to sort of help set that up. And his name is Dr. Frank Lippman. He is a friend of mine and also a physician who is trained

in both Eastern and Western medicine with a really unique lens on what it means and takes to be healthy. We have recorded a prior podcast that goes deep into his fascinating story growing up in South Africa, being trained in medicine, working in Soweto, coming to the Bronx, the South Bronx in New York City at a time where that was not a very safe or fun place to be. I asked him to come back because he has a new book out now called How to Be Well, where he takes a bit of a contrarian view on what it actually takes. Now there's some stuff that we sort of all know, but there's some kind of different provocative ideas. I also was fascinated by his concept of putting together the six different pillars of

health or well-being in sort of the structure of a mandala, which is this ancient format for organizing sacred wisdom. And I wanted to talk with him about that as well. Hope you enjoy this conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in

glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

So for those joining us, we sitting across from a friend and somebody who I trust, you know, in health, medical, medical wellness world, Dr. Frank Lipman. And we have a prior podcast that we will link to in our show notes, kind of gone deep into your, your backstory, your journey, being raised in a kind of an activist family in South America, being trained as a physician there. South Africa. Sorry. Very different. Being trained there as a physician and partly in Soweto from what I remember also, and then coming here. And if you guys have not listened to that, you definitely want to listen to that. It's a really, Frank's backstory, his journey is incredibly compelling.

What I want to talk to you about today is a little bit of a different conversation. You have written many books over the years. We've talked about them. I've read them. Always really interesting. You have a book out now that kind of feels like it is the comprehensive sort of, you know, like of everything that you've done and all the different topics and all the different questions your patients,

thousands of patients have asked you over the years, like this is like the one go-to reference. See, exactly, yeah. That was the point of the book, to try to put all this knowledge I've gained from sort of Western medicine and put all this knowledge I've gained from sort of western medicine and science and the wisdom I've gained from all these ancient traditions a lot of the learnings from working with patients seeing what works seeing what they you know what jives with them and put it into a one book all in one place made made it accessible for people. Because I keep getting this constantly,

Doc, I'm not interested in why, just tell me what to do. People these days aren't interested in why they should stop eating sugar or why they maybe should drink bone broth. They just want to know how to do it and what to do. So that's sort of the outcome of this book sort of came out of that. How are people thinking about their health? You know, what's going to be the most effective way to penetrate the culture? Yeah. Do you find that that's a recent change that people were much more interested in sort of like the why and understanding? I think so. Maybe it's my practice too. I think in the older days when it was a little bit more alternative,

people who came to me knew a lot or knew more. Maybe I'm getting a sort of, I wouldn't say conservative, but a broader type of patient who they just don't have the time. They're not that interested in the whys they just want to know what to do yeah just tell me what works yeah so it's yeah it's definitely a new thing i'd say in the last four or five years yeah and which kind of parallels just sort of the the picking up of the pace of humanity and life and i wonder how much technology sort of is a part of that too. Major part of it.

I think, you know, technology is really interesting because it's wonderful in one respect. But I think, you know, I'm observing it more and more, the problems with technology, the loneliness, the lack of vulnerability. There are so many issues that I'm seeing which technology plays a part in. I'm not saying it's everything, but I'm seeing the downside of technology presenting in people's health, whether it's emotional or physical. But we're definitely seeing the consequences of all this technology. Now, I'm a big fan of technology, but I think it's, where did I see this? Use screens, not too much or something. One of these Michael

Poland, what did he say? Eat food, not too much. I can't remember, but it's the same thing with technology. You just need to be smart about how you use the technology. Yeah. Do you even bother having conversations with patients about this? Or is it the type of thing where you feel like it's just so integrated into people's lives they can't or won't respond to it? Yeah, I very rarely have a conversation about this. It's just something that I observe. I'd say very, very rarely do I get into this with anybody. Yeah, it's just so ingrained in the culture. My daughter, who actually is a therapist now, deals a lot with this and she gets into this. So it's interesting.

And she's seeing more and more of these problems. She's 30 and she works as a therapist in my office now. And she sees a lot of these young, she sees a lot of young women in particular, and she reckons that a lot of the issues are related to technology, whether it's, you know, looking at other people's Facebooks and Instagrams and getting jealous of how they're living their life. All these issues that are coming up that she's finding in therapy. I don't really get into it, but I'm definitely seeing consequences of it.

Yeah. I think we all are. At some point, I feel like there's going to be a reckoning. Yeah. There has to be. Yeah. And not even talking about all the electromagnetic fields from people wearing all their watches and everything. So I think we're heading into an interesting time and we're starting to see consequences and it can only get worse. So your book, How to Be Well, there's so many things that I want to play with that came out of this, but one of them is sort of like the

bigger picture. So my last book was How to Live a Good Life, and it was kind of divided life into three buckets, connection, contribution, and vitality. And it's interesting because you create your own buckets, for lack of a better word, or pillars, right? You have six of them. Talk me through these six and why you chose them, because some of them are what you would think, but some of them aren't. Right. I mean, the obvious ones that I deal with all the time and people understand have an effect on their health. It actually, part of how the thinking of this book came about was I spent so many years trying to understand how Western medicine fits into or how I can understand Chinese medicine from a Western perspective. So I spent so many years trying to work out what is energy in Western medicine? What is qi?

And all the concepts of Chinese medicine I try to understand from a Western perspective. With this book, I sort of went the other way. I was trying to, well, how do I fit my Western medicine understanding into all my influences in Chinese medicine? And it came from mandalas. I'm obsessed with mandalas and the whole Tibetan, the medicine mandala, and I have them all over my office. And I thought, if I can create a mandala with the way I sort of see the body from a Western perspective and put it into this mandala concept. And that's how the six buckets came.

So it's in a mandala, you have you or something in the middle, and then you have your four gates and you're surrounded by these circles. So the circles that I thought were important, the pillars of my health were how to eat, which is the most material, how to sleep, everyone knows sleep affects the health, how to move, and then how to unwind, how to relax. So those are the four pillars that everyone sort of knows about, eating, sleeping, moving, relaxing. But the other two pillars are issues that not too many people speak about, although people do. And people don't really realize are as important in their lives. And the one is how to protect yourself from the myriad of chemicals and toxins out there. Because this is a new issue in our modern day,

from nonstick pans to the cosmetics we put on our skin. Every day we're bombarded with all these chemicals that we don't even realize because you don't smell them, you don't really see them, you hardly ever taste them. And yet we are constantly bombarded by all these chemicals. So a pillar I created was how to protect. Basically, how do you protect and mitigate the idea of protecting yourself from these chemicals that are in our lives. And the last point is what you talk about too is connection, connection to yourself, connection to the community at large,

and connection to the earth. So in Chinese medicine, you as a human are a microcosm of the macrocosm. So you are affected by the outside world. You as a microcosm are part of this macrocosm. So this realization that you're connected to what's going on around you. But also the connect part is sort of connecting to yourself because most of us live in our heads or don't really tune into what's going on. So that's where the fifth and the sixth pillars come from. I love the concept of mandala as sort of the basic template of what you were putting together. Yeah, because mandalas, I remember years ago,

not that that's how I meditate now, you got taught to meditate on a mandala. So my thinking was, this is your medicine mandala to meditate on. If you meditate, if you sort of tune into all these factors, you're going to get you in the middle. You need to take care of your health, and these are the issues you need to think about and meditate on. Yeah. So for those who may not have had any exposure to this word, mandala, can you share just a bit about what you actually mean when you say that? Well, a mandala is, I don't know how much I really know about them.

It comes from, I think it's the Buddhist, definitely in the Tibetan Buddhist world, but I think it's any Buddhist text. The way I understand it anyway is mandalas are created for you to sort of meditate on and sort of understand something to sort of embrace or understand in the bigger scheme of things. I'm not sure, to be quite honest. I don't know. I didn't really get deep into the whole mandalas just i sort of put the book into what i understood of a mandala and how i related to mandalas and how when i was learning meditation at one point i was meditating on the medicine mandala the medicine buddha because you know i was because being a doctor i was told that

i need you know first of all i have a have a medicine Buddha in each of my treatment rooms. And so it was sort of an extension of that part of me coming out. Yeah. And I mean, my understanding of mandalas is also what you just shared. And that there is, you know, it's sort of a visual representation of there is this center, epicenter, and then things are connected. And there's a sort of a sacred geometry about how it expands outward and how things are interconnected. And I always love the idea that there is something that's repeated and sacred and almost like mathematically sensible about it.

Yes. And you can enter at any point, which was very appealing to me. And there are these gates, these entry points or exit points, which, so the whole way of my understanding of mandala sort of turned it around and brought this Western sort of understanding of medicine and I'll try to overlay it onto the mandala it was just a personal craziness of mine sort of be trying to go the opposite way of what I've tried for so many years to sort of bring the trying to understand eastern medicine from a western perspective so I went sort of okay I was quite intrigued by the mandala let me try understand western medicine from this perspective.

That was just crazy. It's almost like you're teaching yourself to be bilingual. But I mean, as a practicing doctor too, that's gotta be a skill that is increasingly valuable because I feel like so many people now have become curious and they are, any one person may walk into your office, you may have somebody

that is hyper practical and only wants the Western explanation, but you may have somebody who doesn't really care about that and they want to know what's happening in a subtle way. And I'm curious, I would, you know, as a practitioner, having the ability to sort of quickly figure out which mode somebody needs to be interacting with and then speak their language, I would imagine that that's a hugely valuable asset. Yeah, I think to me the art of medicine is being able, is, well, first of all, the Dalai Lama talks about

the three most important aspects of healing are the belief of the patient, the belief of the practitioner, and the karma or the relationship between the two. And to me, the art of medicine is sort of sitting down with someone, connecting with them, and sort of trying to work out where they're at and try to not necessarily make a diagnosis or try to get them to understand from their belief system what's going on in their bodies and how you can help them. And so, yes, some people want to know, you know, everyone wants to know from a different perspective. So to me, the art of medicine is trying to meet that person where they are and

explain and motivate and inspire all at the same time. So you want them to understand what's going on, but you want to scare them a little bit so they make the change. But also you want to inspire and motivate them. So there's all of those things working together. Some people don't need to be scared because they're already scared when they come in, so you don't have to scare them. Some people need to be scared. You need to say, listen, if you don't get your shit together, you're not going to be able to go riding. You're not going to be able to enjoy your grandchildren. You've got to sort of find out what's important to them and scare them. Not everyone, but a lot of people, you've got to like a little bit of fear, not like Western medicine, which scares the shit out of

you. And like, you know, you're going to get, you got cancer and you know, but there's a way of a little bit of fear can be helpful for some people. But I think it's always important to show people that they can do it. It's not that difficult. And inspire and motivate them. And so it's all the above. But I think the art is knowing where that person in front of you is at and somehow connecting with them on some level and then being some type of inspiration for them to get better.

Yeah, I love those three elements. I've always believed that the dynamic between patient or client and doctor or healer, whoever it may be, that that dynamic plays such a central role in the outcomes and whether you have a successful outcome, a failed outcome, and how much of a failure, how much of a success it is. And I feel like it's something that's rarely ever addressed. It's crazy. I think patient, you know, doctor-patient relationship is the key to healing. And unfortunately, we've lost that with modern medicine. And I think with technology, it's gotten even worse. You know, I hear so many times people,

they went to, you know, send them to someone who's really a good doctor, who I think is a brilliant person, but they're not even looking at the patient, they're typing the whole, everything's on the computer now. And I think we're losing something from that. I think the art of medicine is all about the relationship,

because if someone believes in you, trusts you, and there's a bond or there's some type of connection, yes, I agree with you. The chances are they're going to get better. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

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January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk.

Let's dive into some of the six pillars. Flight Risk. actually rarely talked about, but that you elevate it to a level of importance as things like sleep and eat and move, which are the common things that we all hear. And in doing so, it's like, it makes it part of your daily, have I done my thing under this particular pillar type of thing, where I had never really considered. To me, it's always been a, well, if there's time, if there's something, it's the throwaway. It's like, yes, I, it's always been, well, if there's time, if there's something, it's the throwaway. It's like, yes, I know it's important, but doing things to in any way protect me from the environment or anything that may be harmful. It has never been elevated to the level of, okay, this is one of the six critical categories for you to be healthy and well and okay. Well, I think it's become one because what the powers that be have put in our food,

put in our cleaning products, put in our cosmetics, you know, even, you know, all the default choices often so unhealthy. I mean, I keep going back to nonstick pans, which, you know, we you know, people create products to make things quick and easy for us without considering the outcomes. GMOs, perfect example. We may not be 100% sure that they're a problem, but, you know, in my heart, I know that can't

be right. But that type of thing, I think there's so many aspects of how we live our life now that we have to unfortunately take into account. And the whole idea of the book is, how do you create healthy habits? Because once you create a habit, then you don't have to think about it. And that's, you know, my daughter turned me on to a wonderful phrase that comes from the 50s, some therapist in the 50s. It says, neurons that fire together wire together. And I love that. I mean, I've never heard of that.

I think that's brilliant because that's about how do you create healthy habits that you don't have to think about it. That's what the book is really about, how to turn people on to thinking about things and just creating healthy habits so they don't have to think about it. So when they get cosmetics now, they get cosmetics without all the chemicals in. Those are the cosmetics they use. When it comes to cooking, don't buy the nonstick pan because the chemicals are going to come off the nonstick pan. So that type of thing is, all these things add up and the little things you can do. I think it's the small choices you make on a daily basis have a huge impact on your health.

Yeah. And that is such an important message, right? Because I think that's another big myth is that we think, well, I don't want to have to like disrupt. I don't want to have to throw everything I do up in the air and little things, you know, they all add up. Under food, let's talk about some of the different pillars here under eating. There's some things that jump out at me that I'm curious about.

So, and as we sit here and record this, so let's talk about eating. You have very specific opinions about things like fat. As we sit here, there was an article in, I think it was the Times, maybe the Sunday Times or recently, kind of once again bashing fat and sort of saying, okay, so we know now seem to be going bonkers over that, assuming that it's health food. And in fact, all the research still shows that it's completely terrible for you. Well, no, the research doesn't show that. I think my philosophy on fat is basically, if it's made by God, it's probably healthy. If it's made by man or in a factory, it's probably not. So the natural fats, coconut oil, I think is incredibly healthy fat. I mean, it's nonsense that it's getting the saturated fat is getting a bad rap. There's more and more evidence showing saturated fat is not a problem. The problem is if you eat a lot of saturated fat or bad fats and a lot of carbohydrates, then it becomes a problem.

But if you're eating or you're not eating too many carbohydrates, you're eating a low-carbohydrate diet, then eating a lot of saturated fat is fine. What I find is, although I think the majority of my patients, people that I see, do better on a low-carbohydrate diet. That's not everyone. Some people have a problem with fat and too much saturated fat. I mean, my wife. My wife needs to eat more carbohydrates. I need to eat more fat. I mean, I think everyone's different.

There is no one way. I think the majority of people do better on a low-carbohydrate diet and eating more protein and fat. But once again, it's the source of the fat. It's the quality of the ingredients. So I think fat, if you're eating a low-carbohydrate diet, is not a problem. Like a bulletproof coffee, which I'm a big fan of. But if you're having it with a muffin, that's a problem. If you're just having your bulletproof coffee and you're having it with a muffin that's a problem if you're just having your bulletproof coffee and you're having your coffee and your coconut oil and a bit of butter you know that's not necessarily a problem but if you're adding a lot you know a lot of carbohydrates then it becomes a problem so it's all the it's all a little bit nuanced and it's all the context rather than you

know all carbohydrates are bad all fat is good i good. I think Americans aren't really good at nuance as a general rule. I mean, but all these things are nuance. They're not as simple as all fat. But good fat is good for you. I mean, I have a history of heart disease, but I do so much better. My heart disease was all the carbohydrates, all the fruit, and all the whole grains I was eating. When I stopped all that and I was scared of fat for so many years

and I started embracing these fats, and first of all, the weight just fell off. Not that I was that overweight, but it just fell off. And all my numbers got better. I felt better. Everything got better. And I see that with a lot of people. So I think I'm a huge fan of coconut oil. I put it in my shake every day. We cook with it. So, you know, I'm not one that's huge on studies, but as far as I understand, the studies show that

saturated fat is not necessarily a problem. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting because I've tried to do a little bit of work around some of the research. And I think very often the big headlines, you know, jump out because they grab a lot of attention. But like you said, when you look at the nuance, a lot of times, you know,

they're not parsing well, but was this conclusion in the context of also having a high carbohydrate diet or a low carbohydrate diet or was it looking at the source you know was it grass-fed this versus you know like a factory i feel like uh there actually is some of that research going on now on a larger scale i'm kind of excited for the next wave of research that parses a little bit more so that we can figure out because i mean we need better information right now. Well, this is a problem.

And I think one of my tips is know your source because I'm not against meat if it's grass-fed meat. I think factory-farmed meat is terrible and extremely unhealthy, not only for humans, but for the planet, for animals, for everyone, for the workers. But grass-fed meat is not. Eggs, you know, pastured eggs are good for you. I'm a huge fan of eggs, but, you know, the regular eggs aren't good for you. So same thing even with butters. I think the sauce is really important of the foods that we eat. Now, if we go back to the way our grandparents used to eat, they had no choice. Food wasn't industrialized yet. So it's what we've done to the food that is more of an issue

than the actual food itself. And even if you look at a lot of the old cultures, when it came to grains and beans, which I'm not a huge fan, but they soaked the grains or soaked the beans. They had ways of preparing these foods, which took a lot of those harmful factors out. So, you know, I'm always amazed at the wisdom of so many of these cultures, things we just took for granted and we don't do anymore because, you know, we have fridges and we have, life is so easy. We don't do the same things to our foods that they were forced to do, but which were very helpful in helping people digest these foods.

Yeah. I mean, these days, you know, and it's just like what you said, people come into you say, I don't even need to know why, just tell me what to do. How is that person then going to say, well, let me think about preparing this for fermentation or sprouting so that I can have it like 24 hours from now or something like that? I think that all gets lost in the quest for fast and easy. But at some point, we all pay. It's a matter of whether you want to pay in small bits along the way and feel good along the way, or whether you want to crash and burn and have a more dramatic moment.

One of the other things that sort of under this nutrition pillar for you is intermittent fasting, which I'm fascinated with. I've shared and listeners know that very recently I just completed a seven day fast with your advice, which was super helpful to me as well. I found it really so incredible, the effects that had on me. It was surprisingly easy. And I have done some experimenting with this idea of intermittent fasting. Tell me a little bit more about what this is and why it matters. Well, there's more and more research on sort of fasting, intermittent fasting in particular, how it affects your hormones, in particular your insulin,

but other hormones too. And they've found it particularly effective for people to bring down their insulin levels and to help people manage their blood sugar and lose weight, function better. Here's an interesting concept as well, which, you know, once again, going back to my Chinese medicine. Before there was even people were talking about intermittent fasting, I was always taught by my Chinese medicine teachers to try and rest your digestion for 12 to 14 hours a night, to try to eat a little bit earlier,

to eat dinner a little bit earlier and eat breakfast a little bit later. I was just taught that in Chinese medicine. They weren't talking about insulin or intermittent fasting. They were talking about resting your system. And that type of thing is sort of always comes back to me. A lot of this wisdom from these ancient traditions, these old traditions, we're sort of starting to understand now from a Western perspective and give it a name.

So intermittent fasting just means basically trying to eat the three meals, two meals that you eat within, let's say, an eight-hour, ten-hour period. Let's say classically now they're talking about eat your meals like from start breakfast at 12 o'clock and eat dinner by eight o'clock, within an eight-hour period. And then you rest your digestion, but you're not only resting your digestion. In Chinese medicine, I was taught you're doing it to rest your digestion. But when you give your body that 16-hour break, you're actually causing a metabolic effect in your body,

which is very positive for weight loss, for learning to balance sugar, and probably for a whole host of other things. I know I go through phases where I do intermittent fasting. I just don't have breakfast two or three days a week. And what I'll notice, if I'm eating mainly fat and protein and very little carbs, it's actually very easy. It's not that difficult. And you don't feel hungry. So I use it in my practice for people who want to lose weight in particular, or people

who want to balance their sugar, which is a lot of people, or make themselves a little bit more tolerant to carbohydrates, because I have this concept that I use that so many of us are intolerant to the amount of carbohydrates we eat. Most of us eat too many carbohydrates for what our bodies can metabolize. And when that is happening, intermittent fasting can be extremely helpful. So I'm a big fan of intermittent fasting. I know when I do it myself, first of all, I feel fantastic. And you do lose a little bit of weight and you realize that you don't have to eat as frequently as, you know, you're used to eating. But I'm using it more and more therapeutically in patients and getting great

results. There's a wonderful book by a wonderful doctor in Canada, Jason Fung, who wrote a book on fasting, and he explains the science behind it and all the studies really well. I didn't even know there were so many studies on it. And I think it's becoming more and more popular even in maybe in alternative medical circles, but more and more research is being done on it. And every time I see an article, there are always positive results. You know, so almost every culture has had fasting in their traditions. You know, why is that? It's got to be a reason.

Yeah, if it's stuck around for thousands of years, you figure there's something to it. I mean, my first exposure to it was probably sort of in the, like the quote, biohacking community who were always just running experiments. And I was like, oh, this is interesting. And then when I started to do a bit more research on it and then experimented with myself, I was like, this is really interesting personally how it makes me feel. And then I guess there's all this evolving research too, all their lungos, doing research on longevity, cancer reduction, and how literally just compressing the amount of time that you eat may also switch on or off sort of the epigenetic state of certain genes to express disease, which if it's as easy as doing that over a sustained basis in time, and it potentially protects you from all of these life altering or ending diseases.

And it's really like you mentioned, if you're not kind of gorging yourself with a lot of especially simple carbs, it's not actually that hard to do. Why not? Exactly. And as you mentioned, there's more and more research coming out in the cancer world about which is, and as you said, turning genes on and off. But here's something interesting, once again, going back to this Chinese medicine, Western medicine. I've always tried to work out what the hell is qi and energy from a Western perspective. And now I think, I mean, my newest understanding is it's the mitochondria, those energy powerhouses that we talk about in the cells.

And actually intermittent fasting is a way to boost the functioning of your mitochondria. I'm also cutting back on carbs. So that's another reason probably why intermittent fasting has so many positive effects. It's boosting your mitochondria, same as high-intensity interval training or strength training or eating more fats and less carbs. The mechanism, I think,

of all these lifestyle changes we're talking about is possibly the mitochondria from a Western biochemical perspective. Yeah, that's interesting that you would look at that overlay as, okay, so, because I have classically learned mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell. That's where ATP is created.

Yeah, but then to kind of think, well, maybe ATP is, you know, chi. And we've got all these millions of little things existing within cells that create it. And through life and abuse, they suffer dysfunction. So the idea that maybe if something like, you know, the way we eat could bring them back to life, fascinating. You brought up high intensity interval training, which kind of moves could bring them back to life. Fascinating. You brought up high intensity interval training, which kind of moves us into the movement pillar also. That's kind of interesting because especially in the context of most people think of that, okay, I get fit, I get better, I get stronger, I'm more flexible, I'm more able-bodied, I can do the things I want to do.

But you mentioned also in the context of how it actually affects mitochondria, and there's research even showing that it may increase the number of mitochondria, not just make them work better. One of the few things that do it, which always fascinates me because this is how people always used to exercise. They didn't, you know, they didn't go to gym, you know, it wasn't exercise, It was how they moved their bodies. So, yeah, I think the whole, and, you know, I'm totally intrigued by mitochondria. Sitting in the sun, everyone loves sitting in the sun, you know, also increases mitochondrial function. So, you know. So sunlight increases. Yeah, sitting in the sun does.

I mean, so a lot of the, you know, we've been taught not to sit in the sun. Now, I'm not saying you sit in the sun like I sat in the sun growing up in South Africa and now I have skin damage. But yeah, use the sun intelligently. It's, you know, most of these things are there for a reason. Yeah, like you were saying, you know, we don't naturally decide to do steady state exercise. That is sort of like a function of the modern day fitness facility where it's rows and rows of things where you hit a button and you set it on a fixed speed. And then you try and distract yourself in some way from what you're doing.

But there's so little variation. Like when you're out in the field, when you're a kid, you're effectively doing high-intensity interval training, but it's fun. And the other thing about exercise, and I know this from myself and everyone will probably confirm their own personal experience, exercising outside, first of all, is easier, more fun, and seems to be much more effective, definitely for me. I hate riding my bicycle inside.

It's like I just don't feel as good. But I can ride my bicycle outside. I always feel fantastic. There's something about being outside too, which has some effect on the body. What it does, I'm not sure. So all these little ordinary things of life that we take for granted, I believe have, what I say, the ordinary things in life have extraordinary effects on our health. So the book was a lot about thinking about all these little things like, you know,

playing like a kid, having fun, laughing, listening to music. You know, music to me has always been so important in almost every aspect of my life, but definitely in terms of my health, especially emotional health. You know, there's obviously so much more to music than, you know, we tap into. And, you know, growing up in South Africa, it was interesting because there were always different musics for, you know, musics for church, you know, when someone died and there was music for wedding ceremonies. And it's just uplifting. The first time I went to gospel or church here in New York, one of my friend's wives had died and she was African American. And I went to this ceremony in this church here in Harlem. And it's probably one of the most uplifting experiences of my life. And here, I come from the Jewish tradition. When someone dies,. And here, you know, I come from the Jewish tradition.

When someone dies, it's not, you know, everyone's sad. And, you know, so I didn't really want to go to this, but I thought I had to go. It was one of the most uplifting experiences of my life. And this woman had died. I mean, it was very powerful. So I think the way we use these things are so important and all these cultures have had it and we're sort of losing it.

Yeah, it's so interesting you say that because when you think about, right, if you think back across what nearly every healing and spiritual tradition, across every culture, there has always been music. There's always been something rhythmic and musical about it. And you have to wonder how could it span so far and cross so many cultures if there wasn't some bigger thing happening, if it didn't in some way do something to you. Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, this is the whole premise of the book that, you know, you don't have to eat perfectly. You don't have to go to the gym every day. You know, there are little things Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

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Yeah, so a couple of other things that i thought were really fascinating you talk about sleep and you've mentioned sleeping you know and there's been a ton of research on how important it is these days you also talk is sort of like exploring the idea of sleep and and being outside right well i think the idea of sleep and getting, you know, it's this understanding of how we use light today. You know, before there was electricity, your bodies got used to daylight and darkness as well. And it's only in the last, you know, when I grew up,

you know, we used to go camping a lot, but I never really thought about it. Now in my last couple of years, I've spent more time away from the city, out in nature, and spending more time in the dark and realizing how, you know, sleep is a rhythm. It's probably the most important rhythm of your body, and our body has many different rhythms. But if you can get that rhythm right, it's easier for the other rhythms to fit into place and sort of extension of the music we are talking about. And to me, what happens during the day,

we don't really get enough daylight. We're under these artificial lights, which have weird effects on our body. And at night, there's one thing to switch off all the lights and be in complete darkness, but there's some other effect on the body you get when you're actually sitting outside in the dark under the stars. There's something about that darkness.

I'm not sure what it is, but I know how it affects me. And just speaking to, you know, now that when I started thinking about it and speaking to people when you're around, you're sitting under the stars and there's something about that that affects your sleep. You tend to sleep better after that too. If you can spend more time during the day in the sun or in the daylight and sometime when the sun's gone down under the moonlight and the stars, there's something that it does to you, and I'm not sure what, but there's something about that light too. So I can't remember how I try to articulate it in the book,

but the important thing is, well, you do get benefits by sitting outside in the darkness under the normal skies. And that's how we've all for centuries have had to live. It's funny. when I was reading that, I had this flashback many, many, many years ago now. I found myself out in a sheep station in the middle of the country in Australia. And there was nothing for thousands and thousands of acres. And I remember just being out in the middle of the field with a few friends and we were camping and the sun went down and it was complete and utter blackness. And then, but it was like somebody turned on a light full of stars. I'd never seen a sky like that where literally it was, you know, it felt like thousands of

white flickering dots that went right down to the horizon. And I remember just lying there on my back, looking up at this. And those few days being there was some of the most incredible, relaxing, peaceful days of my life. It's funny, as I was sort of reflecting on your words, it's like it took me back there. And I was like, yeah, that actually felt pretty good. And then I was thinking about the camp that we run and how so many people actually just lie out in the grass until all hours of the night. And I'm wondering what role that plays in sort of the total experience of rejuvenation. Yeah, I think it does. I'm not sure what it does,

but it just makes sense. I mean, as I get older and I think more about what affects health, I'm sure these things, I'm not sure how or why, but most people tell you they feel good when they do it. I do, I know. And I think a lot of it comes back to the rhythms and I'm obsessed with the rhythms. That's why I'm obsessed with music and how we entrain to different rhythms. But rhythm is one of those key gates that I talk about in my mandala. Rhythm is like one of those key aspects of our health. And sleep is your major rhythm. And if you can get that rhythm right, often the other rhythms fall into place.

It's funny because if you think about somebody who practices medicine in the U.S., sees patients on a daily basis. To have a conversation with that person where, you know, the solid check of the time, you say, listen, I actually don't necessarily know the detailed science behind this, but I know it makes a difference. It's unusual to have somebody like you just own that. And I wonder if part of that comes from the fact that you are trained not just as a Western physician, but also in Chinese medicine. And it opens you to the

understanding that there are some things that actually move the needle that are bigger than granular Western scientific explanation. No question. When you are day in and day out especially as a young doctor using acupuncture or herbs or whatever i got taught out of western medicine seeing these things help and you don't know you know and a doctor's saying well there's no science behind it and you're saying i'm not going crazy i put needles in that person and their headaches have gone, or I took gluten out of their diet and they feel better. Why should I be waiting for science to prove something that I'm seeing all the time? So, I mean, many years ago, I let go of the science because just because we haven't proved it scientifically to me is not meaningless, but not that important because I've

seen too many aspects of health get better without any scientific proof. And seeing is believing. I am more of an observer. If something helps, I don't have to wait for the science. Right. Which brings me around to another question. It's something that you talk about, earthing. This is fascinating to me because I'm a guy who hates shoes. And anytime I have a chance to be barefoot in nature, I will. I didn't know that was actually a thing. Yeah, I'm quite intrigued by earthing. I mean, because I know.

So what is it that we're talking about? Well, we're talking about the electromagnetic i mean look i'm not apparently there is some science i don't know what great science is but the concept of earthing is the electromagnetic fields of the earth when you're walking barefoot go through your feet and and into your body. And that electromagnetic field is actually healing to the body because it's completely different to what's going on in your body. Now, I don't have, I'm not going to argue with anyone, but I know when I walk, I love walking on the beach. I can't deny how I feel after I walk on the beach. How it affects my sleep,

how it affects everything. So that's a classic way of earthing. But as you say, people walking barefoot outside, there's something about that. So now more and more people are getting into earthing and making earthing mats and earthing beds and earthing that. I don't know about those things. Because I want to ask you aboutthing. I don't know about those things. Because I want to ask you about that. I don't know about that. I mean, I think it's interesting. Well, what I will say, when I got into earthing years ago, we bought an earthing mat and we put it under the desk of my health coach

and she had a dog. And the dog always went to lie on that earthing mat. And I've heard that story from a couple of patients. They've told me they've bought earthing mats and the dog always goes to lie on that earthing mat. It also tells me something. So there is, I don't know about earthing mats and I don't have one. I mean, we bought one for the office just as an experiment. I didn't really feel any different from it. But I will say the dog always went to lie on that earthing mat. And I've heard that a number of times from patients. So I

don't know, there may be something to it. I'm not knocking it. To me, walking outside barefoot is probably the most effective. You're going to get the most effect from this concept of earthing, but who knows? The mats, I'm open. They're not going to get the most effect from this concept of earthing but who knows the mats i'm open they're not going to harm you i mean it's interesting when we talk about the earthing mats and just my my knowledge of them is effectively it's you know it's a small mat and you basically somehow like you you find an outlet in your office you don't plug it into electricity but essentially you have a little grounding wire that touches that. And for those who don't know, every electrical outlet has a third hidden wire that is in some way grounded. That wire has to touch ground for safety reasons.

And the mat connects to that grounding wire, which supposedly then would create a direct connection to the ground somewhere. We're living in New York City. But I mean, the question for me when I see stuff like this is, how far do we go? But also, it's kind of like, you know, to me, it's the same thing as when you look at, so we see an herb or, you know, like some substance. And we know that if you take the whole herb, you know, that, that for some, it does something to us where, you know, it may even have Western science that shows that it has an effect. That particular plant may have 50 different things happening in it. And we don't know whether it's any one individual thing that's causing the effect

or the blend of all of them together. So I wonder when you do things like move from walking in nature with bare feet to creating something like an earthing mat where you're literally just trying to take one thing that actually either is ineffective without the blend of all the things that happen from being outside or isn't the actual thing that is functional. No, I think you're right. And I think we see that in herbal medicine. I mean, my Chinese medicine teacher, Ephraim Kongo,

always used to say when he always had a problem taking just the ginseng or just the active ingredient of ginseng out, he said, because plants are made, they're parts that you take out that could mitigate the side effects. You've got to treat the plant as a whole. You can't just take parts out.

So, yeah, you're probably right. I mean, I'm intrigued by those mats. I don't know if they really were. I mean, I didn't feel anything. My health coach had it under her desk, but the dog loved it. And I've heard that before. So there's obviously something that the dogs get attracted to lie on that mat. Huh.

Yeah, I wonder what's going on there. You've got to trust the animals before you trust anyone else. We've talked about and we've kind of danced through a lot of the different things that I wanted to talk to you about. One of the things that I was curious about also, if we kind of zoom the lens out a bit, is, and it's not specifically laid out as one of the pillars that you focus on, but it's kind of alluded to in a number of different ways, is the idea of meaning and how that plays into health outcomes in life and how you feel. I'm curious just what

your thoughts are on that relationship. Yeah, I feel very strongly. I think I'll try to mention it more in purpose. You know, I'll put it under the, you know, this is the thing when you write a book and with this type of thing, you try to fit all these things into different areas. It never works perfectly. We both know that. But meaning is really important.

Finding meaning in one's life. I mean, as you know, is to me one of the keys to health. You know, so much, it's probably more important than, you know, all the fat and the sugar and that. I think people who have meaning in their lives tend to be healthier and happier, period. When you have meaning that does something to you physiologically that is very positive for your health. I mean, there's a story and I probably told it in one of my books. I don't know if I did, but I always remember this story so clearly. Years ago, this woman was coming in. She was New York, working really hard. She was, you know, late 30s, almost 40. She was unhappy.

She hated her job. She was so burnt out. She had what we would, if we had to give her diagnosis, adrenal fatigue. And, you know, we were trying this herb and we were trying yoga and we were trying everything. And she just wasn't getting better. So eventually I just wasn't getting better. So eventually I just threw up my hands. I said, why don't you go work for a non-profit in Africa,

sort of like out of frustration. And I didn't see her for a while and then I got an email a couple of months later saying, hey, Dr. Lippmann, just to let you know, in Africa I'm working for this for this nonprofit, 100% better. I feel wonderful. I gave up my job. I love what I do. She was, you know, this woman who was like struggling for so many years, and we tried everything.

She went to Africa, found something she felt passionate about, was loving what she was doing, and she emailed to tell me she felt 100% better. I mean, having meaning in one's life is so important. And, you know, it's one of those intangibles that we forget about. And another point, which, I mean, this is all the stuff you talk about and you do and you've noticed finding your tribe you're all about meaning and finding your tribe politics have become very tribal now so that's a bit of a problem but you know people need tribes these days because you know you need to have that connection and feel part of something, some type of community.

It's extremely powerful. We had that growing up in South Africa because we had this tribe that was anti-system and we all felt like we were fighting this, whatever. We were a small tribe within this bigger system, but it was very powerful. I mean, tribes are extremely powerful. And I think in this day and age, tribes are important and powerful. And that's why I think I love what you do. I think you've sort of taken it to another level, which is fantastic. So good for you.

I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I mean, my, my fly were so wired, so similar in so many ways, but I really increasingly do believe that if you can find a path to meaning and belonging, and sometimes it's the same path because they both feed each other, that so much of what ails us on so many levels falls away.

And yet those are the last places we tend to look for solutions. Right. And this is the interesting thing about social media and computers and this tech, because in a way you can create a tribe or the tech stuff can help creating a tribe. But at the same time, it can be a a problem too so it's how you use it so i think computers and technology can be very helpful to create community but it's how it's used to yeah to deepen into it also and sometimes it creates envy and an estrangement yeah which kind of brings us full circle because we started talking about technology. So I'm curious. I mean, I always, I've asked you this question before, I don't know, a year ago or whenever we chatted and explored your backstory. But I'm always curious, you know, because people change and where you are is always different. If I ask the question, what does it mean to you to live a good life? What comes up now? Well, what comes up now is I am really passionate about

turning people on to health and showing them that it's not that difficult. And this book is really about that because I see so much unnecessary suffering in my practice. People who are really, who could be so much healthier and happier than they are, and they're suffering because the default choices are unhealthy. They're suffering because they go to their doctors or their guides or the institutions which aren't helping them. I see a change in the culture now where for so many years I was this alternative doctor or this quack. And now I see my daughter and her generation, the millennials, get it. So to me, my purpose and meaning has now become how do we get people healthy?

How do we get healthy products out there? How do we support companies that are doing the right thing? How do we support companies that are creating healthy products? How do we support people doing the right thing? It's about how do we create a wellness tribe? It's all these things we're talking about. That's what gets me going now how are we going to like this next generation are fantastic my generation i'm 63 your generation probably not

as bad but is you know they can do what they want but this next generation get it so i'm very excited by the millennials and how they see life. And they want authenticity. They want meaning. They are aware of the environment. It's wonderful to see. Now, obviously, I may be seeing a warped group of these millennials, but I'm really excited. And meaning for me now is how do we really turn these these people on to, to create a better world. Thank you.

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