Good Life Project - The Art of Perception: How to See and Say What Really Matters

Episode Date: June 2, 2016

What if success was less about mastery and more about sight?Simple truth: Most of us don’t see what is right in front of us.Instead, we see mental models and imprints of what things “should” look like or what we’ve been told to see. And, we miss what's actually happening, along with all the critical details.As entrepreneurs or professionals, it’s extremely difficult to become extraordinary at anything, to serve on the deepest level or build businesses, careers and lives that are tapped into their potential until we first understand how to see what’s in front of us.Today’s guest, Amy Herman, can help. A former lawyer with a dual education in art, she saw how a pervasive inability to both see truth and details and then share them in a clear way was limiting the work of so many people. So, she developed The Art of Perception, a program to teach (non-artist) professionals strengthen their perception skills using classic works of art in a museum setting.The impact has been astonishing. She now works with everyone from the NYPD FBI to the Department of Defense, doctors and med students, as well as leaders in the fields of education, finance, and policy. Amy’s new book, Visual Intelligence, describes her process and her work. In This Episode You’ll Learn:The impetus behind the launch of Amy’s programs.The experience of The Art of Perception and what people can expect when they go through the program.The four As of Amy’s program and how they help professionals become better at their jobs.The importance of taking a step back and making sure you have enough information if you choose to rely on a bias.Why eyewitness testimonies are not a reliable source of information.Amy’s tip for getting the complete picture of a situation at hand.Why Amy prohibits certain words in her classes.The importance of self-perception and why it’s critical to self-development.Why Amy is unhappy with the state of the formal art education and what she suggests to those majoring in art.Mentioned In This Episode:Connect with Amy: The Art of PerceptionVisual Intelligence by Amy HermanThe Gift of Fear by Gavin de BeckerThe METMuseum of Fine Arts, BostonThe Frick Collection  Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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There is a chasm between what we observe and what we say and what we type and what we text. Something gets lost from our eyes to our mouth to our fingers, because what I hear people saying and what I read that people are writing is not what they mean. It's funny, I've often wondered why we don't have courses or programs. Why don't we teach people who are in all sorts of mainstream, you know, theoretically non art professions? Why don't we teach them this one really, really, really critical skill set? We teach people how to analyze. We teach people how to

do spreadsheets. We teach people how to, sometimes we teach people how to write, how to craft models, how to do all sorts of things. The interesting thing is all of that is really, it's almost entirely worthless if it's built upon an inability to see, an inability to actually understand what's going on in front of you, an inability to actually look out into the world, look at a set of data, look at an experience, be in a room with people and miss the vast majority of what's actually happening. And that can be in terms of social dynamic. It can be in terms of an. And that can be in terms of social dynamic. It can be in terms of an image. It can be in terms of numbers, whatever it is.

The idea that all the skills that we're given, which allow us to take information, to take data, and then turn it into something meaningful, turning it into an outcome that in some way matters, all of that is castles built on sand when we don't actually see clearly enough to have the right data set go into our heads. And that's a big part of the foundation. And I thought this for a long time. And maybe part of it is because as a kid, I was an artist. I never took a class, completely self-trained. But what I learned really, really, really early on is that we often don't see what's

in front of us. We see mental models. We see imprints that have told, you know, this is what a cat should look like. And we literally see that model. We see what's been told, what we've been told to see, rather than just looking and saying, what's actually in front of me? And as an artist, when in formal education, you're actually taught to see as one of the first things that happens. So I ended up kind of learning that process myself. And I've always

wondered as somebody who then moved out into the world of law and somebody who became an entrepreneur, somebody who eventually turned around and spends an amount of time working with people to hopefully craft better lives and build businesses and careers that really matter. None of this ends up working right if you don't first understand how to see, how to actually see what's in front of you. And the scary thing is that most of us think we do see, we can see, we get it, we're taking it all in. Today's guest, Amy Herman, has a pretty different lens, pardon the pun, on that. We have this kind of like interesting crossover. We're both

former lawyers with a deep interest in art, though she has a much more in-depth education than I ever had. And over time, she has developed this program called The Art of Perception. And she has a also fabulous new book called Visual Intelligence, which really describes her process and her work. And she has literally built her entire life teaching what people would call non-artists, people of no interest in and no background, no knowledge of the world of art, teaching them how to see using works of fine art to then turn around and function on a completely different level in the world. She has a big focus on doctors and law enforcement and the, and government. Really, really interesting conversation that I

think may, all these puns in here, all this may open your eyes to what's in front of you in a way that, and have you thinking about the world around you, and how you perceive it, and then how you share what you perceive with others in a profoundly different way. So really excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. So you and I actually have a couple of interesting points of similarity. So the reason I used to live on 14th Street is because I was in Los Galdantan. Oh, another one. There you go. Another one. Exactly. Did you go to Cartoso? I did. Oh, wow. I did back in the day. day. Back in the day. And in a past life before that, as a kid, I was an artist. How about that?

Then diagrams, right? I know. So we kind of reversed the order of a whole bunch of stuff. And I never studied officially or anything like that. But yeah, so I made the transition from just being fascinated. And one of the things I've been fascinated about for years now also is how people see. Maybe because that's just became my bent very young in life. It never gets old. Right. And how people don't see, I guess, more appropriately.

People do not see. So let's fill in some of the stories here. We're hanging out and recording this in a kind of grayish May day. You have this fantastic new book out and you've been leading really fascinating programs for, I guess, a couple of decades now when you add it up, right? Probably I started in 2000. So it's 16 years. Yeah. Yeah. I can't believe that. Tell me about the programs. The programs are, I think about them all the time. I know that sounds crazy, but just as you said, thinking about how people see. I started the programs back in 2000 when I was at the Frick Collection here in New York City.

And what were you doing there? I was the head of education there. And the original idea wasn't mine, actually. Somebody came up to me, one of my volunteers at the Frick came up to me and she said, did you hear what they're doing at Yale with their medical students? I said, no, what are they doing? She said, I have no idea, but I heard it's wonderful. So it inspired me enough to pick up the phone and call my colleague at Yale. And I said, Linda, what are you doing with medical students? And she said, why don't you take the train up and come see? And it was really quite simple. They were taking medical students out of the clinical setting, out of the hospital, bringing them to the Yale Center for

British Art, teaching them how to analyze works of art, not substantively, just what do you see, with the hope that when they went back into the hospital, they would be better observers of their patients. And it seemed like a great idea. So on the train back from New Haven, my lawyer's brain was going, I'm thinking, how can I take this from Yale without making it look like I took it from Yale? So I called Yale and asked them for their permission. Could I start a version of their program at the Frick Collection with medical students from our neighbor, Weill Cornell? And they said, yes. And we invited Cornell and the medical program was born. And it was wonderful. Most of these medical students, I mean, they were literally five or six blocks east of the Frick and they had never been there before. And they were so drawn into their medical curriculum that

art just didn't figure. Nothing and probably nothing outside of what was happening at school existed. Exactly. Yeah. So the program was successful and we ended up expanding to other medical programs. And I guess it was in 2004, I was out to dinner with some friends and I was telling them that my medical students had real tunnel vision, which is what you would expect from medical students.

It was all diagnosis and physiology and anatomy. And a friend of mine said, why are you just doing this for medical students? Why aren't you doing this for people who really need to see? I said, like who? He said, like cops. Why aren't you doing this for homicide detectives? And I thought, I should be doing this for homicide detectives. So the next Monday morning, I called the NYPD. Right. Which is interesting, because I could see the hesitation with med students sort of like saying, hey, let's go look at art. And of course, we know that that's not what's going on. That's not what's going on.

But then I think of that and then I think, okay, let's take that sort of like an order of magnitude greater to say that, hey, cops, not in any way to imply that cops are unrefined or uncultured, but just when you think of sort of like that, to me, it just feels like that would be a bigger leap. It was a big leap. And so much of a leap that when I called, made that cold call to the training academy here in New York, I was transferred seven times. Nobody knew who to put me in touch with. And I finally reached a deputy commissioner who he has since passed away, but he became a dear friend. And I knew he heard what I was saying because he said to me on the phone,. Herman, if this is such a visual thing, why are we on the phone?

And I said, you get it. Yeah, exactly. I said, you get it. It's like, ding, ding, ding. Don't hang up, please. Let's keep this going. So he said, invite me to the Frick Collection so I can see what you're talking about. And he came with seven colleagues.

And six months later, every newly promoted captain had to take the program. No kidding. So take me deeper into what this experience actually is and why this matters so much. I think, first of all, we're taking people out of their comfort zone. You know, most police officers in their training do not look at art. And I'm not teaching them art substantively. I'm certainly not teaching them art history. What I'm trying to do is give them a new set of data and change

their environment. Because when you change your environment, you think differently. Take just like the hospital, same rationale, take the police officers out of the precincts, off the streets, bring them to an art museum and say, you're going to be looking at works of art with me for three hours. I promise you every skill that we use today is going to be relevant back on the job, but I need you to go with me and go with this. Don't use the words obviously and clearly for three hours and tell me what you see and be honest. And they did it and I loved it. Where does the need come from? Because I guess it differs depending on the application and who you're talking to also, but it seems like there's a deeper thing that's more pervasive just across

everybody. There is. And it's across the professional that's more pervasive just across everybody. There is. And it's across the professional spectrum. And I finally identified it. It's taken me all these years to be able to articulate exactly what the problem is. There is a chasm between what we observe and what we say and what we type and what we text. Something gets lost from our eyes to our mouth to our fingers. Because what I hear people saying and what I read that people are writing is not what they mean. And so they are not using clear or precise or objective language. They're making poor word choices. So while my program really focuses

on observation and perception, I think the main thrust of it is really the clear communication of what it is that you say. Yeah. So can we sort of deconstruct those three things, like what we observe or what we see, the way we say it, and then what actually gets transmitted non-verbally through typing, texting, and all these different things? Would those be sort of the three? Well, I actually break the program down. I call it my four eights. Every program, whether it's cops or special forces or doctors or social workers, every time they have a new problem or a new client or a new patient, you practice these four A's. And the first one is you assess your situation. You assess, what do I have here? What's happening? Then you analyze it.

You say, what's important? What do I need to know? What don't I need to know? Then you articulate it. You say to your colleagues, to your friends, to a report, to an email, and then you adapt your behavior. You make a decision based on the other three. You assess, you analyze, you articulate, and you adapt. And for the law enforcement community, because we're facing such a unique culture in law enforcement now, I've added a fifth A, and that's accountability. All of those things have to be done with an eye towards accountability because they are accountable for every decision they make. Yeah. And so many now are being required to wear, either they're being filmed from a vehicle or they're literally wearing a chest harness. So everything, all their four A's

are being cross-checked. Yes, they are. Which has got to be like on the one hand fantastic, on the other hand, really unsettling if you're that person. I think it is unsettling, but in the end, it underscores the need for extraordinary clear communication because nobody should be able to watch what you're doing or listen to what you're saying and say, I don't understand why he did that. Or I didn't understand what he said. Our choice of words is paramount. It's so important. And if you know that you're being recorded, that's a natural end to the culture we're living in. And in the end, I think it benefits the people that are being recorded.

I think everyone benefits. But it just, again, underscores the need for precise communication of what exactly it is that we observe. Let's talk about the first day, assessing. There's a whole bunch of questions around this. Because it sounds like this approach is, the really big thing is garbage in, garbage out. Right. Right?

Because if you mess up the first A, everything that flows from it becomes – it's like building upon false assumptions. You see this in business entrepreneurship. If the assumptions that started a business are false, everything you build on top of that crumbles. So is it the same thing? It is the same thing. And what I try to do is intercept the process so we don't get to garbage in. And by using works of art, we're not relying on our phones. We're not using digital technology. I'm asking the participants, you have five minutes with this work of art. You can't read the label. And you and your partner have to look at it and decide, how am I going to describe this work of art to all of my colleagues? You have to be thoughtful.

You have five minutes to present and you can't use the words obviously and clearly, and you can't read the label. So in assessing, I'm asking them, the first thing to do is just step back and look, don't say anything. Assessment is probably the most important part of the A because that's where you're transmitting the information. And then when you get to the analyzing, you're distilling down the information. You don't need everything that you see. That's the difference between seeing and observing. You're paring down your information to what's important, what you need to convey, what is the crux of the issue.

And then you articulate what you've pared down. And then you adapt your behavior. You make a decision. You pull the trigger. You leave the scene. You diffuse the scene. There are all those decisions to make based on those other three so that if someone comes back to you and says, why did you do X? I saw this. I noticed this. I perceived this to be the situation. Therefore, I acted accordingly. And I'm not trying to burden them with extra steps. This needs to be automatic. Right. So eventually it becomes habitual. This is just the process that unfolds. Absolutely.

So here's my questions around this is that, so increasingly we know that the retina is really part of the brain as much as the eye. This is something you speak about. And because of that, so we tend to think, well, and this, you know, again, all the madness with eyewitness testimony, like 10 people in the same room see the exact same thing and then describe it profoundly differently. Right. You know, so one of the, my curiosity is always is, is how do you account for the fact that what we actually see is not just the light that comes into our eyes, but it's the entirety

of our history and the way that our brain chooses to pattern recognize and filter and allow in some things and disallow other things and actually do the processing through the actual experience of it coming into it. So how do you handle that with us? I explained from the get-go that in each session that our perceptions are a compendium of our assumptions and our biases and our education and our associations and our upbringing and our traditions. That's how we form our opinions. And the way the course is useful, I don't want to divorce people from who they are, but to remind them that if they're going to rely on biases or assumptions or inferences, they need to step back and make sure that they have enough information

to rely on them. And if it's too subjective, then they can't rely on them. For example, I'll tell my law enforcement officers, if you're going to make an assumption based on gender or age or religion or sexual orientation or sexual identity, you have to look at the totality of the circumstances. You have to look at the big picture. And if the big picture conforms with your assumption, then you can make the assumption. But if you don't have that big picture or the facts, you can't make the assumption, you'll get in trouble. And so, we're looking at big pictures and small details that are of equal importance. And that's part of the second A, that's part of the analysis. What's important

here? What do I need to know? What don't I need to know? What information can I get rid of? And it's a tough call because I have to often remind people the difference between objective and subjective information. And we rely on our subjective information all the time. Yeah. And then when you also add in, because there's a level of subconscious as well, which is the fact, which you can't go into analyze, but I think just maybe just being aware of the fact that, okay, there's something else going on here. And maybe I should just pull back and say, is it possible that that's in some way? And to show you a really kind of ridiculous example, and it's not even art example, about a year and a half ago, a woman on Facebook in the UK was going to be in a wedding. She bought a dress and she put

it up on Facebook. And for a reason that still mystifies me, she posted the question, what color is my dress? I remember this meme. It was crazy. Ridiculous. And my first thought was, who cares what color your dress is that you bought for this wedding? But for some reason, that meme went viral. Right. It was insane. Insane. And everybody was chiming in. And I thought, who really cares what color this woman's dress is? But what I found fascinating, and I use the picture today in all of my classes, I put it up and I say, okay, raise your hand if you think this dress is white and gold. And on average, 60% of the people in my classes raised their hand. And then they put their hands down and I say, okay, who's sane like I am

and thinks it's blue with black lace? And almost the rest of the class will raise their hand. And then there's always someone who sees it as brown and green or purple and red. And I don't want to hear about that. But what's fascinating, people look at each other and they say, what do you mean it's white and gold? Or what do you mean it's brown and black? I'm not really concerned about how you see the dress on the screen. My concern is when two of you are interviewing a witness or two of you are at a crime scene or two of you are in the operating room and you walk away with fundamentally different perceptions of what you've just seen, what do you do then? The dress doesn't matter, but real life situations do. And I want to give you the tools to be able to handle it when you're standing there with someone who just doesn't see what you see. What do you do? Yeah. Without saying

you're wrong. Yeah. You mean that's not the right answer? That's not the right answer, right? Apparently. Right. Doesn't resolve a whole lot of stuff. Not the right answer. It is so fascinating too. And I wonder if in those scenarios too, the fact that in some situations now you've actually like, let's go to the videotape. Does that help or does that not? Because in the example you just offered, right, with the dress, people were looking at the identical picture. Of course. So going to the videotape isn't going to help you there. It won't necessarily just solve it. It will not. So my answer is that when you're in some sort of complex situation where you see things fundamentally differently, narrate your position with clarity, precision, and objectivity to the person who sees something differently than complex situation where you see things fundamentally differently, narrate your position

with clarity, precision, and objectivity to the person who sees something differently than you do, and one of two things will happen. You will either convince them to see it the way you do, or you will agree to disagree. But either way, you've covered yourself completely. You have stated your position. I see this. I notice this. This is why I took this action. This is what I perceive to be the whole situation. You've covered yourself. And in that process, you have to choose your words really carefully to make sure that you're saying exactly what it is that you mean to say. And this sounds so simple. It's really not. It's harder to do than it sounds. I mean, I have to imagine just the social dynamic there is so complex. And there's also, again, because what we think we perceive is so subject to both subjectivity, but also, I mean, there are these social experiments where, you know, somebody goes into a room and there are three lines that are shown clearly different lengths, right? And it's obvious which one. Right. And the person says, well, this is the longest one. But unbeknownst to them, everybody else in the room is playing a

role, you know, and they're like, and they say, no, the other one is. And by the end of it, you literally, you've decided that, okay, well, if everybody else is saying that this one line is longer than the one I think is the longest, you know, I'm going to start to say that that other line is longest too. And the freaky thing is that when you look at fMRI studies that are done on that person, it's not that they're just – the part of the brain that lights up is not the part that says that they're faking it so they can fit in. It's the part that says that they now actually believe this to be true, which is scary. It's very scary.

It's very scary. And if you apply exactly that scenario to what happens when people are looking at eyewitness testimony, you know, and all the suggestive information when we're looking at eyewitness testimony, people will swear. We had a case in New York, must have been six or seven months ago. There was a man running around downtown. It was terrible. He was hitting people in the head with a hammer. I mean, he was, you know, emotionally disturbed individual running around hitting people with a hammer. And when he was finally caught, he was in Midtown and he chose the wrong person to hit over the head with a hammer. He was about to hit a police officer over the head, a female police officer.

And they shot him in the leg because he was about to do bodily harm. And when they interviewed five or six witnesses that saw this guy go down, all the witnesses said an unarmed man was shot. Unarmed. He had a hammer. He was about to hit the woman over the head. And these witnesses, because of the culture and because of what's been happening, in their head, truly believe that the man was shot, did not have any kind of weapon with him. Because we see, it's not just what we want to see, it's what we're missing as well. And it's really complex. Talk to me about the what we're missing part of it. In my course, we call it the pertinent negative. And that comes from emergency medicine. When a

patient comes into the emergency room, I learned this from my emergency residents that when a patient comes to the emergency room and they have to figure out what's wrong, say the patient, they think the patient may have pneumonia. Well, pneumonia has three symptoms. Symptom one is definitely present. Symptom two is definitely present. But if the third symptom is conspicuously absent, you need to say that's the pertinent negative because then the person doesn't have pneumonia. So you not only have to say what you observe, you have to say what's missing as well. And I tell my participants, I use this in the intelligence community and in law enforcement, far outside of medicine.

Talk about not just what you see, but what's missing. Example, if you have an expectation of behavior, you expect someone to do a certain thing or behave a certain way, and then they don't, you need to say that it didn't happen. It's by saying what you don't see that actually gives a more complete picture of what you're looking at. Yeah. Sounds counterintuitive, but it really works. Right. It makes you much more descriptive to say, I saw this, but I didn't see this. Yeah.

It sounds counterintuitive, but it makes total sense. Like what a missing person's case, that's another example. If someone is missing or their parents report that a teenager is missing and you go to the teenager's room, what's not in the room? If the cell phone is gone, the keys are gone, and the laptop is gone, you're going to have a very different kind of search than if any of those things were there. Yeah, totally. So that's what we do with the pertinent negative.

That's how we talk about what's missing. Yeah, that's so fascinating because it really provides the context to actually understand how to explore this. It's so interesting also the way that our body, not just our brain, but our body informs what we see. And I was actually playing with this on an airplane recently. It was a nighttime flight.

Everything was closed down. You know, the lights were off. And as we're taking off, so there's no conceivable way for me to have a frame of reference outside of the plane to know whether we're going up, down, left, right? It's kind of weird. But I'm looking down the aisle and I'm clear as day seeing the front of the plane go up. So it's like, of course, the whole plane is angled up. And then as we level off at 30,000 feet, I'm like, okay, if I look down, it looks like everything's sort of like it's flat. And then as we're banking, I can see if you look down the aisle, I'm like, oh, well, the plane is clearly, if you look down, everything's tilted to the right.

And then I was thinking to myself, I'm like, this is bizarre. I'm not actually seeing this because there's no conceivable way for me to see that. But my eyes are telling my brain that this is what I'm seeing because I'm feeling that probably in my inner ears or something like that. That something is adjusting. It's telling me I'm seeing something that I'm not seeing. Isn't that amazing? Crazy. It is amazing.

It's fascinating, the observations. When your doctor says, do you listen to your body? They're not kidding. They're not kidding because your body often tells you when something is wrong or something is off. And when I tell my medical students, when a patient comes in and says, well, I don't feel right, what does that mean? What does that mean to an objective? You want a description, you say, well, how do you not feel right? Is it in your head? Is it in your stomach? Tell me how it is out of the ordinary. And then try to get them to describe,

well, what feels right and normal and what doesn't? Because we don't live in a black and white world. We live and work in a gray world. And it's much harder to talk about the gray world and the abstract world than it is to talk about the black and white. So I try to give my participants the tools to be able to negotiate the complexities in the black and white world and in the gray world. Yeah. So bridging the gap to actually somehow sharing what you're seeing on multiple levels and not seeing on multiple levels. That communication part, especially these, I mean, I think I wonder often if that communication part has been really modeled for a really long time.

And then when you add the complexities of technology, on the one hand, it probably makes certain things really easy. On the other hand, it probably makes certain things brutally hard and talk about the gray zone, you know, it removes nuance and context. It does. And it also, I have a concept, I talk about a portrait in the book. It's, this is John Winthrop, and she's this 18th century portrait of this, you of this very handsome woman. And she has a bow in her bonnet. She's holding two nectarines. And there's this incredible mahogany table at the base of the painting.

In art history, we would call this tour de force. And if you were to ask a number of people to describe the painting, most of them would leave the table out. They would just omit it from the description. And it's what's hiding in plain sight that's tripping us up. It's what you're not seeing. And a real life example of that, what's hiding in plain sight, like if you ever said to someone, how did I miss that? It was right in front of my eyes. How did I miss that? So we had an example. I took my sister, my sister was experiencing back pain. So I took her to the emergency room and they injected her with Valium right away. And so she's slipping into her Valium haze and I'm sitting at the end of her bed. And they bring this 90 year old, 90-ish man to the

bed next to hers. And his wife is sitting at the end of the bed. And she and I start talking because her husband can't really talk and my sister can't talk. And we start talking and talking. And these two young residents, emergency residents come in with their machinery and they hook up the old man and they're looking at his lungs and his heart and they're listening to him breathe. And I hear them say to each other, I wonder, I wish I knew what was going on here. I wonder what the history on this guy is. You know, his heart doesn't look so good. I wonder how long this has been happening. And his wife taps one of them on the back and says, I can tell you everything you want to know. And one of the doctors says to her, who are you? And she said, I'm his wife. I've brought him here, you know,

for the last six months, once a month, I can give you the whole history. He has congestive heart failure. And you know what one of the doctors said? I didn't see you. Now she was literally at the end of the bed. And my sister came out of her Valium haze and said, I didn't see you. Now, she was literally at the end of the bed. And my sister came out of her Valium haze and said, you need that for your course. Like, it was just this wonderful moment we had. She's like, I'm whacked out and even I got that. It was in that haze and she said, did you hear that? But that's what I mean. The information is right. Everything those doctors needed to know was sitting right there. And because of the lures of technology and machines and all the images they were getting,

there is no substitute for human interaction. And what they could learn from that wife in two minutes, it's not that they don't need the technology. Sure, they do. And it will serve them. Lay the groundwork first. Get your history first. Figure out what's going on with this guy. It had a profound impact on me. I would imagine. Really did. I would imagine. It is amazing how much we don't see. All the time. You use this great example. I know you've used it when you speak and it's in your book.

So we're doing this in Manhattan. And for those who don't know, actually, probably almost nobody knows this spot in Manhattan. But on literally the northernmost edge of Manhattan, there's a little river, tiny little river. And on the other side is a cliff, which is sort of like the edge of Riverdale or the bottom edge of the Bronx. And on that cliff is a giant 60 foot high giant letter C, which because the Columbia football team plays in the stadium right across the river. Right. And the crew team, they row. Right, exactly. And so you show this picture of a woman walking in the park with the sea, like filling the vast majority of the background and share what the normal response is to that. When I put that picture up and I say to my class, okay, write one sentence to describe what you are looking at in this picture. 50% of the people that look at that picture don't see the letter C. 50%. And I say to them, I know what the people who did see the C are

thinking, how could you miss it? It's right there. But it's what they call inattentional blindness. You're so preoccupied with distilling the information in front of you to write that sentence that you miss what's right in front of your eyes. And once again, like the blue dress, blue slash white gold dress, I'm not concerned so much whether you see the sea or not. It's what happens in real life when two of you are standing somewhere and you witness a crime or you're trying to help a patient and you see fundamentally different things. What happens then? What do you do? And just bringing it to people's attention that you're sitting next to someone who's looked at exactly the same picture I did. One person saw the sea and one didn't. That's very unsettling. It is. Yeah, it is. And it's a huge sea.

Right. And it's funny because when I saw that picture the first time, so I actually knew that spot. And the reason I knew the spot was because it's right across from Inwood Park. And I wrote half of my last book in a cafe on the corner looking out at that sea the whole time. So my immediate response was, so I saw the scene in the picture very quickly, but the question for me was, is it that I'm just so familiar with that shot already that I know that that sea is there? And had I not had that experience, would I have been the 50% that didn't even see it? Well, one would think if when I show that picture in New York that I'm going to have a much lower percentage of the people that don't see it. It's 50% wherever I am. And I've

had people that grew up in Inwood, people that are intimately familiar with Columbia's campus, and they say, I can't believe I didn't see it. And I think the funniest response I got, someone once raised his hand and said, what if I saw the sea but didn't include it in my sentence? I said, that's a whole other problem. That's a whole other issue. As I was communicating to myself, it's a private sea. It's just for me. It's just a private sea. So I get all kinds of responses. That's really the reason I had to write the book. I was hearing all these wonderful anecdotes about how people are using this information and saving lives and talking to their kids in a different way and

paying attention to the world around them. And I thought, I need to share this. Because when my course is over, people say, what can I read to learn more? And now they have something. Yeah, which is fantastic. I'm really excited about it. So law enforcement and medicine, you can see where there are really clear applications of that. And you just said that a lot of people just in everyday life. Share a story or an example of how you've seen this really matter in just kind of everyday life. In everyday life, I was talking to a group of teachers, and I often do this session for

teachers in different schools. And two instances come to mind. One of the teachers said, we were talking about the value of nonverbal communication and what you can observe because people speak volumes about themselves before they open their mouths. And one of the teachers said, you know, I teach fourth grade. And when the kids come in in the morning, before a single kid opens his or her mouth, I can already tell you who's having a bad day. And I said, you know what? The same is true for adults. If you look at adults in the morning, people come into work, you already know who's having a bad day if you're observant enough. And how well that information can serve you later in the day. Do you want to bombard them with information? Do you want to call them to a meeting first thing? We need to be able to use

the information that is available to us, even if it's not a matter of life and death. Sometimes the information can backfire. Your observations, you can be too observant. My poor son has to live and breathe this with me. He's the kid of a therapist or something, right? It's like, don't use that observation thing on me, mom. The trivia game that we play on vacation is, what did you observe? And we quiz each other on waiter's names and waitress's names.

And we were walking down the street not too long ago. And I've taught him that if you see an emotionally disturbed person coming towards you, just get out of the way. Just cross the street. Or if someone scares you, just get out of the situation. So there's this man walking to us, wildly gesticulating and screaming. And I said to my son, I think we need to cross the street. And he said, why? I said, look ahead. And he turned to me. This is a generation gap. He said, Mom, he's on a Bluetooth. Which, of course, I didn't see. And all I saw was this mad yelling and screaming. Of course, the man was on a blue top. So, you know, just in everyday life, our observation skills will tell us issues of personal safety. I was in a restaurant yesterday and I saw a mousetrap on the floor. I left. And it was sort of a hidden behind something, just small things. And when we listen to what people say, and sometimes the small details that

you can remember can really make a very big difference. One of the other teachers, she said, when we were talking about choice of words, she said that she sent home on the report card to the parents, your son has an interesting sense of humor. And she realized interesting is a loaded word. Right, because that could be great or it could be horrible. It could be horrible. It could be racist. It could be sexist. It could be mean. It could be wonderful. It could be horrible. It could be racist. It could be sexist. It could be mean. It could be wonderful.

It could be witty. And she said, I realized when I said your son has an interesting sense of humor, it could really alarm the parents. So when I talk about everyday situations and your choice of words, they do make a difference. How people hear what we're saying, it really does make a difference. Yeah. So I never describe anyone's sense of humor as interesting. Or just a person is interesting.

Yeah, right. Yeah, that's so interesting. I have to stop. It's funny. There's actually somebody else I know who hosts conversations and does interviews. And that word is actually a tell with this other person. So when you hear that person constantly responding to somebody by saying, oh, that's interesting. I know that person well enough to know that that person is really bored and just trying to get through. And that's the

default sort of thing. I wasn't really listening. Oh, that's interesting. It's like in the South when they say, bless her heart. But I have a similar prohibition on certain words in my class, regardless of what the profession is. I ask the class for the time that we're together and for the remainder of the day to refrain from using the words obviously and clearly. With the very simple explanation that we live and work in a complex world, nothing is obvious and even less is clear. And what happens is someone invariably breaks the rule and says, well, obviously we have this. And I say to them, what if I don't know why it's obvious? You've already made me feel bad because you're telling me this is the situation and I don't know why it's obvious. Those two words are problematic.

The way someone is interesting, it's sort of a switch that you know it's really not so interesting with obviously and clearly, I have a very critical ear. When someone says, well, obviously it's this, I'm not so sure you know why it's obvious, but you're trying to show me that you know that it's obvious. So I say, rather than saying, obviously it's a case of X, I prefer that you say, it appears to me to be a case of X because of Y and Z. Oh, that's a great setup. And it seems to work. And it's so simple. And the other thing you'll notice if you watch the news, and you'll hear all the pundits saying obviously and clearly all the time,

if you take obviously out of the sentence, it doesn't change the meaning of your sentence at all. Yeah, once it's there, everything else is modified by it. Absolutely. The other thing that I wonder, the thing that I love about your language instead of obvious too, is that when you say obviously, not only are you sort of diminishing anybody else who doesn't agree with you, but at the same time, it becomes really hard for you to back away from that position now.

Yes, it does. Even once it becomes obvious that you were clearly wrong. That's right. You back yourself into a corner. And one of the things, one of the other tools that I try to give the participants is I say to them, err on the side of being general and inclusive. Example, I show a picture of women in a religious organization and they're wearing very modest dresses and their hair is all done in the same way.

And I'll say, what do you see? And someone will always say, oh, a bunch of Amish women. And someone else will say, no, they're Mormon. And I say, do you really know what Amish women specifically look like? Do you know what Mormon women specifically look like? Like how many have you seen? Exactly. And how do you know they were Amish or Mormon? My favorite was one woman raised her hand. She said, these are Ohio Amish women, because I was raised in Ohio and I know what they look like as opposed to Pennsylvania.

Well, they were all wrong. They were all wrong. They were from a religious compound in Texas. And the answer that I give them or the tool to use is err on the side of being inclusive and say, you know, the women are dressed in a certain way and have their hair in a certain way that makes me believe they all belong to the same religious organization. Don't pigeonhole yourself in unless you are absolutely sure what Amish women are wearing or what Mormon women are wearing. Because otherwise, your chance of being wrong just increases with every assumption that you make. Yeah. Which also, it requires you to be okay being the person in the room who says, I don't know.

That's right. And we don't like that. We don't like that. But you know, I learned a long time ago when I was a practicing lawyer. I don't know. That's right. And we don't like that. We don't like that. But you know, I learned a long time ago when I was a practicing lawyer, I did take a lot of lessons away from the courtroom. And once a judge was very candid, you know, he'll ask questions and lawyers will pontificate and the answer just gets lost. And the judge said, you know, one of my favorite responses is,

Your Honor, I just don't know. He said, because then you know what you have to look up and we can move on. And I remembered that. And there shouldn't be any shame in saying, you know, I just don't know. Yeah. I got busted in federal court very early in my career. That's right. In a very similar situation. Because you try to dance around the issue. Right. When the judge is like, well, I assume that you spoke to all these people,

like tell me what their stories were. And clearly I hadn't spoken to dance around the issue. Right. When the judge is like, well, I assume that you spoke to all these people. Tell me what their stories were. And clearly, I hadn't spoken to all of those people. Clearly, you haven't. Right. So I'm clearly, of course, right. So I'm tap dancing left and right. And he knows what's going on. I'm losing all my credibility. And yeah, it's so interesting. The other thing that another experience that came from law school, I did moot court. And with moot court, you argue one side in the morning and the opposite side in the afternoon. It's horrific. It's just awful. But what our coach told us was, don't practice the points that are in your favor. Don't practice talking about them because the judge is going to go for the holes in your argument and your weakest points. Be well-versed in what you know is wrong. So I tell all my

participants, self-perception is as important as perceiving the world around you. You need to know your strengths. You need to know your weaknesses. So when you go in for an evaluation, nothing should come as a surprise. You should know if people don't want to talk to you before your third cup of coffee. You should know if you don't answer emails right away, knowing your own strengths and weaknesses and being able to converse about them. Self-perception, it's critical to professional development. Yeah. And we don't do that.

Nobody wants to talk about that. We don't because we all want to know. We all want to be perceived as being the one who knows. We want to be perceived as being the smart one. Yeah. And I find in my class, I can always tell you who wants to be the smart one. They want to show me the details and the nuance that they notice in the painting, and they fail to lay the groundwork of what it is they're looking at.

So I say there's always time to show how smart you are. Lay the foundation first, lay the groundwork first. So we spend time doing that. Yeah. If only it were easier. Yeah. I'm trying to make it easier. One course easier. Yeah. I'm trying to make it easier. One course at a time. I'm trying to make it easier. I think even just creating an experience, even for a moment, if you have a group of people for a half a day and you normalize not knowing, well, let me ask you actually,

because that's effectively what you're doing. So for that window of time, not only are you given permission, but the instruction is even if you think you do know, approach this from the position of, this is what I think I'm seeing, but hey, let's have a conversation about it. Because we need to be that candid in the workplace as well. Right. Does it, in your experience, does it then translate out into the quote real world? It does. Because an example that I'll give you, I have a photograph in the book that I use in my presentation all the time, and it's of a pedestrian bridge over water with buildings. And on top of this bridge is this huge table and chairs. It's tremendous.

And it was taken in Grand Rapids, Michigan, where artists are invited to install their artworks around the city and people get to vote on what they like. So I put the picture up and one person has to describe it to another. And so when it's over, everyone looks at the slide and I ask the class, all right, let's cut right to the chase here. How many of you told your partners there was a table and chairs on top of the bridge? And maybe a hand or two will go up. And then I'll say, all right, who said to your partner, okay, there's something on top of the bridge. I don't know what the heck it is. Just draw something. So it looks like I told you about this. A few people raise their hands. And then I say, how many of you ignored this completely? The rest of the hands go up. And they tell me that they don't want to talk about what they don't know. They want to talk about what they're sure of. And I only gave them a minute. So they're going

to prioritize the information. I said, here's the problem. When your partners open their eyes and look at the slide, they're going to say, were you planning to tell me about that thing on top of the bridge? It's not going to go away. Just because you don't talk about it doesn't mean it's going to go away. So what we have to do is leave our ego at the door and say, okay, look, here's the situation I'm encountering. I don't know why it is. I don't know what the rationale is, but I need to alert you to the situation because somebody else might be able to solve the problem. And so it is a matter of ego. People don't want to talk about what they don't know. But what I'm trying to say is art is the great equalizer. We all have the assumption, none of us know anything about it, at least in my classes,

that most of them don't. And it's non-threatening for some reason. We're looking at paintings, we're looking at sculpture and photography. I'm not testing them on crime scenes or a cadaver. Yeah, because you're not supposed to know anything about it. That's right. So we're starting with a clean slate. And for some reason, the combination of starting with a clean slate, being non-judgmental, and using works of art really gets them to respond. And it's great fun in the process. It sounds like it. And thankfully, I'm in New York City. So at some point, you may find me wandering around the museum with you. There you go. You're more than welcome.

One of the things that popped into my head as you were talking also is when you actually allow yourself to be as present as you possibly can to actually start to see, to observe what's going on around you, it gives you this interesting opportunity, which probably half terrifies people and probably half delights people, which is that you may see that. So I'll use an example because this is, it's a little theoretical. So a really concrete example in the past life, I was a yoga teacher. How I went from artist to lawyer to yoga teacher is a whole different story. I got to a point where I would come to a 90 minute class and as the teacher in my head, I would kind of have some things I thought I was going to offer out to the class. But what I learned really quickly is just like you were saying before, the single most

important thing that I could do was in the first 30 to 60 seconds, as we all just sat, was just look at the room, was just look at people's faces and bodies. And in a moment, I would know what I had to do. And had I not done that, and then I would continue. My job as a teacher, I always believed when I was in class, was to be fiercely aware the entire time. And that was the thing that allowed me to then deliver what that room of people needed at any given moment in time. It makes you a better teacher. It makes you a better teacher because you're responsive. It's terrifying though for most people because you have to reach a point where if you develop that sort of hyper-awareness, then you also sort of have to step into the responsibility

to do something with it. It's also hard to let go of hyper-awareness. People ask me all the time, do you ever shut this off? It's very hard to shut off. There's a book called The Gift of Fear. Gavin, his last name escapes me, but law enforcement read this book all the time. And they talk about the gift of fear. When you are hyper aware of your surroundings, when you see everything, and you can't just turn it on and turn it off. And your experience as a yoga teacher, you weren't just going in and teaching yoga that you decided to do that morning.

You were responding to the needs of your class based on your observations. And in the end, it makes you a better teacher because you're tailoring your class for what you observe. And whether the students know that you're watching them, you're delivering a better service for them. And one of the reasons when I have police at the Met, I always serve coffee and something to eat. And it's not just because I want them to have sugar and caffeine so they participate. For many people who come to the Met for the first time, they've never been to a museum before. They don't know what to do. Right. It's this little disquieting. Go get a cup of coffee, get something to eat, sit down and talk with your colleagues, and it automatically breaks the ice. So we make art non-threatening and

we invite people in and say, you can leave thinking differently about the work that you do. Yeah. I think the flip side of that is also, not the flip side, but sort of the compliment is that once you gain these skills, and this is kind of what I was getting at with the yoga example, is that until I reached a point where I was a decent enough teacher where I could improvise and know that I was doing right by the people, being aware of what was needed was something that was not a fun thing. Because I saw it's like- It's work. Right. It's like a guitarist who hears, I love Steve Vervan, you know, and I would hear blues riffs in my head, but I didn't yet have

the skills to let them come out through my fingers. So there's this interesting psychological dynamic of you become aware of what you're capable of. You become aware of what people need. You become aware of what's really happening in front of you. But I wonder if sometimes, what do you do when you gain that awareness and you don't yet have the skills to respond to it on a level which is going to make you feel okay and give people what they need? It reminds you of your own limitations. It reminds you of your own limitations. And it happens to all of us. I always say that this work of observation and visual intelligence is a work in progress. We're always doing it. We're always learning. I had a situation on a plane in

February. I was in Indianapolis and I watched two very, very suspicious people. I watched their actions. They tried to gain unauthorized access to the plane. There were a number of circumstances that made me very, very nervous. And I ended up reporting it to the FBI because the behavior was so suspicious and there were a number of factors. But what I was amazed, 90% of the people on the plane didn't even notice these guys. And the man sitting next to me on the plane, when the plane finally landed, I was grateful the plane landed. I said to him, did you see these guys in front of us? And he said, lady, my goal when I get on a plane is to fall asleep and to wake up when the wheels touch the ground. And I thought, I wish I could be that way. I had this angst-ridden flight home because I thought we

were in the midst of a terrorist plot on the plane and this guy's snoring away. So it reminds us of our own limitations and we can't shut it off. But in the end, I think having that heightened sense of observation and perception really does serve you well. I so agree. And I think also if you come to it with the mindset of this is something where if it's frustrating right now because I see things, but I don't quite have the skill set or the ability to respond in a way that like use that as motivation to actually acquire what you need to acquire. Absolutely.

Rather than demoralize you. As you said before, see what's missing. Yeah. Figure out what's missing. Think how you can make it better and how can you remedy the situation. And so much of this book is about putting all those pieces in place and stepping back. And without digital technology, stepping back and realizing what are my strengths, what are my weaknesses, how much do I see, and how well do I communicate what I see?

Yeah. Take me back into your life a little bit. So we've touched on a couple of different things. You were an art educator at the Frick and then you're, where are you right now again? I'm here in New York. Right. But you're not still at the Frick? No, I'm not at the Frick. I do the art of perception. Oh, no, you're at this, right. I do this full time. But you have this past life as a lawyer. I do have this past life as a lawyer. So what happened here? I think it was that visceral thing that kicked in first year of law school. And I got there.

I had studied art history undergraduate and I loved it. Okay. So then we have to take a step. How do you go from that to law school? Because I didn't know what to do at the end of college. And my father was an academic and I wasn't sure I wanted to go to graduate school. And I thought, well, I'll just go to law school having no idea what law school entailed. I just had no idea what being a lawyer was. Truthfully, I got there and I was bored to tears.

I thought this is the most, this is just boring, repetitive paperwork. And I couldn't, I really admired the people that found it interesting because I was just, I was bored to tears, but I stuck it out. I did moot court. I went to as many museums as I possibly could in Washington, DC for my three years. And I had some interesting jobs. I did, I worked at the National Endowment for the Arts in their general counsel's office. I tried to bridge my background in art. And in the end of law school, I sold out. I ended up working for a firm, actually two firms. And I knew I did it for five years. And I said, I can't do this the rest of my life. I just can't. And it took me a good two or three years,

two and a half years to find a job in an art museum. And without blinking my eye, I got a job at the Brooklyn Museum. And I left everything, my car, my apartment, the legal practice, I dropped it all, moved to New York City and got on the subway and went to the Brooklyn Museum. And I came out at Eastern Parkway, looked at the museum and thought, I'm going to work here. And that job only lasted 18 months until I heard about the job at the Frick Collection. And the real turning point at the Frick came, I was working in the director's office and he announced his retirement. So I started working with the curators on an education program and they took me aside and said, we see that you like this very much, but if you want a leadership position in museum education, you have to go back to school. And so I went to Hunter College at night and got a master's in art history at night and did four years towards a PhD.

And so I was able to go art, law, art, and then I left the Frick Collection and I knew that this was my calling. And I've been doing it full time since 2011. Yeah. I'm curious. I have really interesting mixed feelings about it. I've never been to art school. I've had a number of friends that have had formal art educations and they're pretty split and they're not disgruntled because they're actually very successful. Right. So I'm curious, as somebody who seems like you've had this deep passion for art on all different levels and done two different degrees and advanced degree work beyond that too, I'm curious what your lens is on sort of the state of formal art education in the US and its utility right now.

It's very sad because I think the role of the humanities in general, in our digital world, in our STEM world, I heard a great line. I was on a university campus and there's a movement afoot to turn STEM, science, technology, education, and math into STEAM and insert the arts back into that curriculum. And I tell people in college all the time when they they ask me, you know, I want to do something interesting with my art degree, I tell them to distinguish it, combine it with something else. Because when you study art, whether it's fine art, whether you're an artist or art history,

your way of looking at the world is going to affect everything that you do. And while I see the decline of art education, I don't see a shortage of art history majors. I don't see a shortage of artists, which is really quite heartening. It's just what we can do with that. So I encourage people to combine it with something else. I don't think I could be doing what I'm doing now if I didn't have a law degree. I couldn't. To get my foot in the door at the police department, even to get my foot in the door at the Brooklyn Museum, just to open that door, I had to have something other than being just an art historian. And I brought the law with me. And I'm in no means a practicing lawyer at all. But once you have that way of thinking, once you have that sort of academic discipline of thinking like a lawyer, you bring it with you. Yeah, I so agree. And so I still think like a lawyer, but looking at art never gets old. And I just bring it together. And I can't tell you how many lawyers I train now. And my class actually

qualifies for CLE credit, which I think is the ultimate irony that I can bring lawyers to the museum and they get credit for it. That's so cool. So it's like, see, like an artist thinks like a lawyer. There you go. Yeah. And it makes so much sense. I've been asked a number of times, I practice for about the same amount of time as you did after school. And I've been asked a number of times, or either through conversations or when I speak, you know, what was that? You know, do you regret that? I'm like, not in the least, not in the least, because it's the same reason. I mean, it teaches you how to

process information and create arguments and how to think and analyze in a way, which is so broadly applicable if you choose to really extend that out into the world. It's invaluable. And I would never recommend going to law school just to learn to think. Right. I agree with that. And when you put it into practice, that's really where a lot of the value came from, being wrong and being on the losing side and having to craft your arguments to be persuasive, which is what you do so much of in the law, but you do take it with you. And I think part of the appeal of the program is that I've brought these two very seemingly

disparate programs together, learning to look at art and combining it with law and law enforcement and intelligence. And I work in so many different areas of the FBI, surveillance and counterterrorism, all with my art slides. And that seems to be only growing, which is very exciting for me. Yeah.

Really very exciting. That sounds awesome. As soon as I was exposed to your work, my first thought was, man, it's just so damn cool. Because it speaks to me personally on so many levels. And it's so incredibly valuable, I think, especially in this day and age. It's so much cool. Because it speaks to me personally on so many levels. And I zoom the lens out and it's so incredibly valuable, I think, especially in this day and age.

That's so much fun. I feel guilty. I have such a great time teaching up there. And people say, we can tell you're having a great time. What a way to earn your living that you really enjoy what you do so much. And writing the book, while writing a book is never easy, it was the natural extension of my teaching. And I hope that I've translated the course into the book in an effective way that people can take the course one step further by reading the book. Yeah, I love that. So the name of this is Good Life Project. So coming full circle, if I offer out the term to live a good life, what comes up for you? To live a good life. It pretty much illustrates my transition from the law to the art world to what I'm doing now. To live the good life is to contribute in some way to the greater good,

that I can feel as if what I have worked towards is going to help others do something beneficial in the world. And it gives me a tremendous amount of gratification to think that I am contributing to the greater good and serving as a role model for my son. And it's been a good life so far. And during the process of writing the book, I had a cancer diagnosis right in the middle. And it put everything in perspective. So living the good life now means, A, being healthy,

not sweating the small stuff, and learning to laugh at almost everything. So that's how I bring it together. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real, unscripted conversations and ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that too, and if you enjoy what we're up to, I'd be so grateful if you

would take just a few seconds and rate and review the podcast. It really helps us get the word out. be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds and rate and review the podcast. It really helps us get the word out. You can actually do that now right from the podcast app on your phone. If you have an iPhone, you just click on the reviews tab and take a few seconds and jam over there. And if you haven't yet subscribed while you're there, then make sure you hit the subscribe button while you're at it. And then you'll be sure to never miss out on any of our incredible guests or conversations or riffs. And for those of you, our awesome community who are on other platforms, any love that you might be able to offer sharing our message would just be so appreciated.

Until next time. This thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.