Good Life Project - The Making of a Purpose-Driven Founder | Yunha Kim

Episode Date: October 12, 2023

Dive into the captivating tale of Yunha Kim. An immigrant who exceeded expectations, yet felt unfulfilled despite having every hallmark of success. From thriving in Wall Street's corridors to becoming a passionate entrepreneur, living with 5 workmate-roommates as they built from scratch. Yet, fulfillment evaded her until she combined tech and a personal challenge - her own battle with chronic insomnia.Today, we unpack Yunha's incredible journey, from the pressures of Shark Tank to becoming a beacon of change in the tech industry. Discover how she's not just building apps but impacting lives. You can find Yunha at: Website | Sleep Reset Instagram | Yunha's Instagram | Episode TranscriptIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Brad Feld about the journey from finding your purpose to guiding people through founding companies to find their own purpose. Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED. To submit your “moment & question” for consideration to be on the show go to sparketype.com/submit. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

That deeper sense of purpose is what keeps you in the game when things are super hard. Because like entrepreneurial journey is like up and down, right? There are times where you love your job. There are times where you hate your job, right? But if I have that strong mission behind it, like I know that my time is being spent on the right things by helping people with their sleep at scale. It like keeps me going and keeps me motivated. It's so rewarding.

It's a cool job. So imagine arriving in the US at the age of 14 alone without your entire family who is on the other side of the world working incredibly hard to live up to the expectations to succeed at the highest levels, and then doing exactly that, excelling in school, landing a high profile job, then realizing this was never truly your path. And then making a big decision to pretty much blow it all up in

the name of blazing your own path and then succeeding on an entirely different level. Well, my guest today, Una Kim, has navigated many ups and downs since arriving in America alone as a 14-year-old immigrant. She worked hard to land a job in investment banking in New York, making great money, having a big name job, and a great apartment. All the trappings of success. And still, there was something missing. She felt increasingly called to do her own thing.

And to the surprise of many, left what seemed to be a dream job to found her own business and spend years living and working with five other roommates who were also her workmates in a small apartment to build their first business. It was an amazing experience. But it also taught her that owning her own business, it just wasn't enough. It had to be in service of something bigger. So when she exited that first company, she immediately set to work building a popular meditation app, Simple Habit, that was really about helping people find peace. But along the way, her own chronic insomnia, it really started to take its toll. No amount of ambition could outrun her constant exhaustion. In restful sleep, it just felt entirely out of reach. Until one day, everything changed.

After being wait-listed for six months to try and get into a lab for a sleep clinic, she knew there just had to be a better way. She had tried every option and every medication, and it just wasn't helping. And that's when she stumbled upon the power of cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, known as CBTI. The results were nothing short of life-changing. She was able to improve her sleep dramatically in just a few weeks. And at the same time, she realized that while only 10% of the content on the Simple Habits app was related to sleep, it accounted for 70% of the engagement. And she realized how big this problem was and set out to solve it.

Partnering with researchers and acclaimed labs and developers, she launched a new endeavor, Sleep Reset, to really help people find a way back to sleep without medication. And the results were equally astounding. And seeing how her product was helping people reduce stress and sleep better, it sparked a deeper sense of purpose in Yuna. The startup journey transformed. It became about really more than founding a company or justifying VC funding or a flashy exit. It was about changing people's lives. In today's episode, Yuna shares how she reinvented herself many times over and uncovered a certain motivational superpower along the way. And we hear how she dealt with this viral TV drama after an appearance

on Shark Tank and made the leap from employee to founder and evolved from building tech products to truly changing lives. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. You have such an interesting journey. From what I understand, you come here alone at the age of 14 and end up in boarding school in Portland. And that alone I'm so curious about because to make

a decision to do that is one thing, folks in South Korea. So I'm curious about the decision behind that. I think it's like, what is that? Is there a saying like this where like not knowing is the bravery kind of like naivety is a bravery. I feel like that's a theme in my life where I had no idea like what I was like diving into, but it sounded cool. Like, Oh, boarding school. Sure. Sign me up. And I did that. And it was a big change in my life. I think it happened because my parents, they studied in the States. They did like grad school here. So it wasn't like a foreign idea to them. And they suggested it because like a lot of my friends back then from my middle school, I went to a private school in Korea. A lot of them were

doing that too. So they're like, do you want to do that too? And I was like, sure. And so that's how it ended up being. What's it like when you first arrive? Do you have a recollection of like those first moments or those first days and how you felt? Scary, very scary because I didn't really understand what people were saying. And so like I used to be an extrovert back in Korea. And this extrovert is like now here, you cannot talk about like, you can't say express your feelings. You want to connect with people,

but you have no idea what they're saying. And sometimes when they like laugh, you're like, are they laughing at me? You know how like you end up thinking that quite often. And then people would like use all these slangs that I don't know. And I would feel embarrassed that like, I don't really, I can't follow with them. So I just felt like I was like tiptoeing all the time for a while. And then I remember, cause initially my parents came, you know, when I was 14, like they came

here to drop me off. And then like, I was saying goodbye to them, I was crying, I was so sad. Do you have a sense for what made you start to feel more comfortable? My first year, I had a boyfriend that helped. Always bridges the gap, right? Yes. And a boyfriend. And that was like, not a possibility thing. Like in Korea, I was like too young. Right. And then like, now I didn't have my parents looking at me asking. They found out later and they were like, you need to come back to Korea.

And so that happened. But that was helpful. And also I had a roommate who came from China and her English was even worse than mine. So like we could not communicate, but like at least made it feel like it was like a norm. Right. You aren't alone in the experience. Yeah. She ends up becoming like one of my best friends. She ended up investing in my first company that I started actually. Yeah. But even in my college or high school, so senior year of my high school, when I got into Duke for, I did early decision, like, you know,

the early stuff. And I think some people at my school knew that happened. So I was like walking down the aisle and someone said, go blue devils or something like that. And I had no idea what that was. And I had no idea what he was saying. It only clicked after many years later when I was at Duke, like kind of like a flashback of like, oh, that's what he meant. Because my English wasn't good, even until then, even until college. And the other thing is that you're away from family. I mean, family is literally on the other side of the world, which is really tough. Even if you're in an environment like a boarding school where you have built-in community, if you feel like you're in some ways different or it's not

easy to communicate with that community, it doesn't necessarily feel like you're a part of that community. Sometimes you can feel like you're surrounded by people, but you're still on the outside. Yeah. It's interesting that you can understand that. Yeah. Sometimes you get an experience like that and through the experience like you, but I think a lot of people also have felt their version of being surrounded by people that in theory should be their peers and should be their community, but it just doesn't feel like they're a part of it. So for different ways and different circumstances. So you end up in Nuke, studying economics, Chinese. First job out from what I understand, you drop into New York City

into the world of investment banking. Having lived my entire adult life until fairly recently in New York City and having a lot of friends who made the same decision. I know that life and the life of being like a first year analyst, investment banking in New York City. On the outside, like when you're coming out of college, it sounds really awesome, like great salary, prestige, awesome business card. You can afford a sweet apartment, but tell me what the actual lived experience was like for you. All the things that you're saying is what was like oh so cool like they fly me into like a five-star hotel like that kind of stuff actually i think it was a great training ground for me it like really um helped me understand or like it teaches you work ethic so i remember going to

work at like i don't know eight or nine a.m you're done at like 2 a.m sometimes you have to do later and like on the weekends you have this blackberry that's like things all the time and so on the weekends like i was getting a massage and like ding and you know as a first year like now that i think about it you could just be like i'm just not going to respond for a while but before it was like the first year analyst like you have to respond within 10 minutes so i like stopped the massage to like respond like I did that quite a few times and um but so of all the things like what got me to get out of it was not really the work part like how long it was and all that I don't think I just understood or felt connected to the work and the impact that I was having

I was in the healthcare group and so I like healthcare a lot like I think it's such a good industry like meaningful one but I just didn't feel the connection between the spreadsheet work that I was doing with like saving lives. So I was like, well, if I'm going to work this hard, I might as well like want to see the impact in people's lives. So I even thought about applying to med school. Oh, wow. Yeah.

So I actually like filled out my application and I realized, oh, I need to do people call post-bac to get all these, um, the prereqs. Yeah. So then I was like filled out my application and I realized, oh, I need to do people call post-bac to get all these. The prereqs. Yeah. So then I was like applying for that. And then that's when the idea for my first company came out. Yeah. So when you land this plum job, right.

And this is what you've worked so hard for. You're doing really well. And you're in New York City. And then you start to realize more and more, this really just doesn't fit with who I am and the way that I want to be. And you start to think about like, well, maybe I'm going to leave. Did you think about leaving to start your own thing as the only option? Or were you thinking, well, maybe I should try a different investment bank or something else? Because to a certain extent, you arrive here at 14 and you're sort of like heads down, working really hard, building towards an aspiration and you land the dream job, right?

And then you're in the dream job. And then all of a sudden you're like, this is not okay for me. I would imagine that there were stories and scripts playing in your head that were saying, but I still have to stick this out because this is just what I do. Or is that not true at all? My parents were like, don't you need to stay there for a couple of years? Like they asked that. But like every day I was going to work, I was dreading it. And so the thing is, I had another data point before, which was I,

so the summer before I worked at McKinsey as an intern management consulting, I loved it. I loved every minute of it. And the work hours were like really bad too, because we're on this project. And I was like always going home at 1am, but like, I had so much fun. It was like, it's like a teamwork. So I think what I learned about myself is like, I like working in a team. Whereas in banking, like at least in that short experience that I had, it wasn't like a teamwork. So I think I knew like, this is not what I wanted. And I was like, I need to switch. Yeah. It's interesting that you also said that part of what was going on is you wanted to feel more of a direct connection to the impact that you were having. Yeah. And I feel like that's one of the things that you hear a lot of people who leave to found their own business say, because I feel like it

allows you to create a circumstance where you feel that. Tell me more about what that need was in you and what was that drive in you to just feel that level of impact that was not disconnected by 10 spreadsheets and a whole bunch of intermediaries. I'm like thinking, because it was like 10 years ago. I remember thinking, my time is so precious. I love giving it all. But if I'm going to work this hard, I might as well like go be a doctor or something so I can save people's lives. It was like the return of my time that's invested.

I just didn't get the feedback of my work. And actually, I initially thought that if I could create something and I get the feedback, that's enough. And that's why I started my first company. And I learned through the first company though, that's not enough. I need to get feedback of like this product's impact in people's lives. So I've come kind of far, far along actually, like in that realization, but it was like little threads of breadcrumbs that got me to realize today that I need to do things that's going to actually have positive impact on people's like daily life. But at that time it was more like, I need to see feedback loop.

Yeah. I mean, so you end up leaving in 2013, I think you quit and you start a company called Lockit, which started a different approach to lock screens on devices back then, which was a very different world a decade ago. So when you go from living the life of an investment banker to living life of a startup founder, I would imagine you had to make a whole bunch of very quick and pretty deep sacrifices. Totally. Moved out of my cushy apartment, that was sad. And then moved in with like five other guys into a two-bedroom apartment. And then we had bunk beds in the bedrooms.

And then we worked in the living room. You know, I was like eating sushi, like that was paid by my company. And like all of a sudden we had a, I remember, I like specifically remember this because it was like an initiative that we had. We raised money from my friends and to like as a seed round. So I felt super responsible for the way we spend this money. And the company, quote unquote, the small company was paying for like everyone's like meals and things like that. So we had an initiative where we were trying to get each meal to cost less than $2.

So on the weekend, we would go to Costco and buy hot dogs and all these really gross, unhealthy stuff that we can just microwave so we don't have to spend time making them. And so that's a very good example of how life changed. Yeah. So the people, your five roommates then, were these also the people who you were working with? So you're basically living and breathing and working 24-7 with all the same people. Yes.

I think that the lack of, what is that called? Lack of awareness or naivety is a bravery. And it's interesting also, you described one of the things that that company taught you is that to a certain extent, you like the startup world, you like building your own thing, but it still wasn't building an alternative technology around lock screens on phones. It didn't have a level of purpose or mission that would really impact people's lives on a deeper level. And it sounds like that experience really taught you that it was important for you to have not just control over

the company and the culture and the people, but the impact too. I didn't learn that through that company. I learned it through the next company I started because, you know, sometimes you don't know what you don't have unless you experience it. As you can see, I had no work-life balance because I was like living and breathing. Right. And I started being really stressed out and I started meditating and like that just had a really positive impact on me. So that's how I start a simple habit. And when I built that thing and people are sending me emails around this product changed my life, I've been struggling with depression and people are sending me emails around this product changed my life. I've been struggling with depression and your product saved me like getting that kind of feedback as a founder.

And I've never received that before from Lockett. Like that's when I was like, Oh my God, like this is the kind of impact I can have. And that's when I learned, Oh, like that's what I missed at my previous company. Yeah, there's something else there. Yeah. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun.

January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series X is here.

It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy

jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Let's fill in just a little bit of gaps here. You were able to sell Lockit about two years after you started it, took a bit of time and ended up in Stanford B-School. And then in 2016, I guess it was, you founded this company called Simple Habits, which was like from the outside looking in, you know, okay, so this is a meditation app, but there were a bunch of other meditation apps on the market back then.

What made you look at what was happening and say, there's a need that's not being filled here? 2016, it was like still early in the meditation market, but there was calm and headspace at that time. I was using headspace. I liked Andy, his voice a lot, but I didn't like the calm's voice. There was only one voice on both of these at that time. And then I started getting just like, because I was like into meditation, I was going to these meditation retreats and I started meeting some of the meditation teachers and they were like, you know, I heard that you're an app developer. Can you help me like make another headspace for me? And I just was like, huh, there's gotta be a platform like Spotify that would allow these meditation teachers to easily distribute their

content. So that's how the idea for Simple Habit came about. I wasn't like, I'm going to start a company now, like yet another one. Because I was like, after Lockett, I was like, I am never starting a company again. That was too stressful. So it was more like a project. And I just like loved meditation activity itself. And I was like, oh, meditation teachers need this thing. I know how to build stuff.

So I hired an engineering contractor, like PM, then designed it a little bit and built it. That's how it got started. Almost like it was in part scratching your own itch, in part listening to the feedback of friends or other teachers who are around you saying, wouldn't it be cool if this existed, but it doesn't really exist and we would love it. And you basically saying, I know how to build things and I like building things and this would be kind of cool. Did I get it right that you were, was this a Y Combinator company also? That's right. Yeah.

I'm curious about that also. So for those who don't know, Y Combinator is this, some people call it seed accelerator model. And it kind of came out of Silicon Valley where you would apply, you know, and you would end up being in a cohort of maybe a dozen other founder teams in almost like a bunker working together, you know, but parallel playing, working on your own projects, your own companies, but you knew that you were not alone. You had a lot of communal support. You had a little bit of money from them to invest, to sort of like get you up and running.

Curious what that experience was like for you, because to a certain extent, you came out of an experience which was classic startup founder, 24-7, zero balance, just completely nonstop. Then you're realizing that actually isn't how I want to live and work. But then you kind of go into another experience which largely normalizes that again. So I'm curious how that was. Yeah.

So after Lockett experience, I did have like a year or two off. And actually like before I started at GSB, that's when I was like so bored. So I tinkered around simple habit idea. And then when I was at GSB I started dating this guy who ended up being my husband now he uh also went through YC but the thing about Lockett is that we started in New York and like like a mobile startup in 2013 in New York it was like a

new thing but like so from a New York consumer founder perspective this Silicon Valley seemed like a different scene so when I came here started dating this like new guy and I was like huh this YC thing stuff like everyone's talking about it sounds kind of interesting I want to know what it is about so I interviewed at YC and they told me hey if we accept you, we'll need you to do this full time, aka you have to drop out of school or GSB. I was like, sure, I'll do that. And that's how it ended up being. And I am so glad that I went through that experience. It was something different.

You only meet once a week, though. It's not like you live and breathe this, but it's like once a week. But like there's pressure. There's pressure of like you're going to demo and like raise money at this time. And everyone else is doing that, too. So it's like this like little community, but like a structured program. And it makes it so efficient to raise money. Where with Lockit, I had to like pitch people individually. Here, I'm just pitching in front of all these people. And if they're interested, they let me know. And it's just like so efficient.

So yeah, I had a great experience. Yeah. Again, for those listening, part of the experience is everyone sort of works over, I think it's a 12 week window or 10 week window. And then at the end of it, you like everybody basically takes the stage to present to like a room or an audience or a theater filled with potential investors. And this is like demo day. And it's like, this is kind of make or break. It's sort of like you get funded and you keep going or you don't. And this is probably the end of the road for you.

So there's a huge amount of pressure. doesn't escape me the fact that you're at this point working on an app, which will become Simple Habits, which is about helping people relieve stress and find stillness and find calm. And you're sort of like back in the cauldron doing the exact opposite. Yeah. I remember on the stage, I went up and I got everyone to meditate. I thought that was pretty cool. Getting all of these like top investors who are probably stressed out because they're also competing against themselves too, because they're trying to look for the hot company and trying to get into their rounds. And having everyone like meditate, that was awesome. It was like intense, but I think by this time I had this like strong meditation practice and I've done a much better job managing stress.

I remember before going up on the stage, I meditated for such a long time that I was super calm and it went really well. That's amazing. So even though the app wasn't officially out or anything yet, you had developed your own personal practice around meditation to a point where it really helped you navigate this second pass through going through the founder's journey. Yeah. I'm guessing that you don't remember this at all, but you actually emailed me in 2016. No way. You did.

Yeah. 2016 about being on Simple Habit? About trying out the app. No way. Yeah. It's funny. When I saw your name again more recently, I was like, why is that sticking in my head? Yeah. So I just typed your name into my Gmail and I was like, October, 2016, you reached out to me.

You're like, Hey, I've got this app, Simple Habit. I'd love you to try it out. And so it's funny because we had that point. And I'm sure like back then you were just emailing anyone you could to try and certainly say, we have this awesome thing that's on the market because you had emerged from this experience at the end and you're in building mode. The next couple of years, it sounds like you end up going to taking this out to the market. It becomes a real product. It's building eventually millions of users around it. What's happening in your mind as you're seeing

this really start to get traction at a large scale? I mean, how does that affect you? I know it's nice to see the business growing, but just personally, when you see I created something from nothing around helping myself and helping a couple of other people who said, wouldn't this be cool? And now you're seeing millions of people are using this thing. I think it felt like a privilege, privilege to be able to create something that has like positive impact in people's lives. And like, I just felt like I had a dream job and a dream startup. So there was that piece, but then there's also this piece of like, whatever I've accomplished is not enough.

Like I got to do more and more and more. It's like, we got to 5 million users, not enough. We've got to get to like 10 million, like not enough. So there's that piece that I'm like struggling with a little bit where it's like never being satisfied. But at the same time, there was this kind of peace around like, I'm doing a good thing for the world. Yeah. So what was the aspiration at that point? Like once you saw this is a real thing

and it's helping a lot of people, because a lot of times like you have the dream when you're first starting out, then you're a couple of years in and you're much better informed and the dream sort of shifts or grows or expands. So what does the dream become for you? The dream initially was like, I want to build a product that people use and they get benefit out of it. It becomes like all the way to, it needs to be a number one in the market and need to beat all the competitors. And I need to drive all these returns for my investors that believe in me and a little like that. So how does, I mean, granted you have a meditation habit at that point, but once you start piling, not just that level of dream, but that level of pressure on yourself,

how does that affect you? Are you still just like, okay with it? So I had a therapist that I did great. Like he helped me so much, like just understanding where is this drive coming from? And I think that helped me understand why there was such a drive. And one of the drive was that I am not enough. Like I need to prove to myself my worth and I need to prove to myself that I can accomplish all these things. But I realized this thought process that like, I will never be enough and just accepting that's what's happening helped me to just accept myself a little more. Yeah. I think I learned a lot through that journey. So once you accept that

though, which basically means like I need to disconnect my self-worth from the things that I'm making, right? Yeah. What then becomes the primary driver of you continuing to push to grow this thing? Because this is a really big, deep personal awakening. It's like, wow, there's this thing that I haven't realized that's inside of me that's been pushing me so, so, so hard for years, like more, more, more, bigger, bigger, bigger. And maybe this is like actually a personal thing that I need to figure out and really disconnect from the product that I built or the company that I built, which is awesome. But then once you start thinking about that, even if you're not there yet,

something else has to replace the drive if it's going to keep at that pace. And it maybe doesn't need to keep going at that pace anymore because the thing that pushed you so hard to get to that place gets dismantled. This being dismantled actually didn't mean that my drive stopped, actually. It was like a place with something else. And something else was like my team members who believed in me, who joined this company. I want to make this their career break for them. I want this to be the company that they're going to look at 10 years from now and be like, I am so glad that I joined that company. I learned so much. So like those different elements came in. That was one.

The other thing was like, I started just being appreciative of this job that is so intellectually challenging. And I started thinking of this as a game, like almost like you're playing a game where you're like, I have to strategize and to think about like, what's your next move. So I think that made it more like positive thing. But the thing is like, even though you dismantle that, that piece of self-worth, whatever, it comes up, it's a habit, right? So then, you know, I I would be like, oh, that's playing in again. So I don't think it ever disappeared 100%. It was probably always there. It's just like, how much of that voice do you listen to? It's not like it's a clean break. Like,

oh, I just realized this. Okay, I'm good. It's a years-long process. It takes time. So you're sort of continuing to grow and your reason why starts to shift. It's more of a devotion to the employees, to the culture, to just an amazing work experience and to eventually like the users whose lives you really genuinely want to change. You have this weird moment in 2018, which has been written about and where you've appeared on screen, where you show up on Shark Tank. But behind the scenes, between the time that you pitch to be on Shark Tank, if I have this right, and the time that it's actually taped, you have the ability to raise a chunk of money.

So when you pitch, you need money. By the time you show up, you're very fortunate, you've worked really hard, and you have a chunk of money in the bank. And that sets do you want to be on the show? And so when I was like, at that time, I didn't have, we didn't raise around. So I was like, sure, this is perfect timing. And then we raised because there were like months in between. By the time I was in down in Southern California on the place shooting, we raised quite a bit. And it would be unfair to my existing investors if I gave them a different deal, right? So I had to give the same deal. And Silicon Valley has a different valuation from the

packaged goods type of products that are often pitched on the show. So that was the root cause of that dynamic where they were like, your valuation is too high. So you show up and it gets adversarial really quickly. You're like, I have this awesome app. It's helping millions of people. Here's my valuation. And at that point you kind of knew your valuation because you knew what other investors had invested at. And you're showing up and saying, this is what it is. And they'd still love to have you on board, but I got to be right by them. And then one of the very high profile sharks kind of goes at you and uses some not very flattering language that may not have been used with other people and other genders. That eventually leads another shark to throw a glass of water in his face. I do know people that have been on the show and I know what gets filmed is actually way more than what actually shows up on TV. So you never know what actually happened in real life versus what gets manufactured by the producers when it actually hits the air.

But I'm curious for you, just standing there, showing up, thinking to yourself, what an amazing opportunity. I genuinely am creating something that's helping my team build better lives and giving them an amazing experience and making a difference in millions of people. And then to have this really bizarre experience happen, and you're standing there watching it all go down. What was it like for you? I was just so shocked. I was never called that word before in my life. I remember just being stunned and like, what just happened? And I was just like digesting that. And then this water thing happened. So on the show, when you watch it, it seems like they're asking one question

at a time, but when you're on the, like on the stage, actually people all like five sharks all asked questions at the same time so you have to pick and choose which questions to answer and i was answering someone else's question and when the water was drawn and the next thing i see he's wet so it was just like a lot to take in but thankfully i meditated a lot before being on the on it so i think i like reacted pretty calmly actually but they did edit things so like um i think it was earlier or later in the segment where like i started talking about the purpose behind this product and actually that week or that month my grandma had cancer like was diagnosed with cancer and a lot of cancer patients were using our product. So as I was talking about people with cancer, I started like kind of like, what's it called?

Curing. And they use that image with like, it made it seem like I was like crying because I was called that word almost. But anyways, it was a good experience. Interesting experience, I would say. Yeah. It's a little strange to hear you say it was a good experience. It was good experience for the business, I would say. Right.

Because there's exposure that goes along with it, no matter what happens on screen. And as many people know, segments get rerun, especially very high profile ones, which this ends up being in no small part because of what went down. So it's kind of this mixed blessing type of thing, right? It's like a strange, bizarre experience for you personally, but then professionally, because so many people actually start sharing it around and it gets re-aired a number of times, it gives the business a lot of exposure. So at this point, are you able to just sort of brush off experiences like that, like at that moment? I mean, after you've been through a number of cycles of entrepreneurship, weird things tend to happen all the time and bizarre things and

challenging things and stressful things. Like, was this just another thing like that for you? Or did this affect you more? It's interesting because what would impact me more is the employee stuff that would like, you know, there are times where I had to like, let someone go, like those would be harder than this actually. Cause I have a personal connection with people, right. Whereas this one, it's like just a stranger calling me something. And surprisingly, cause that, that clip got like everywhere. And, um, some people like write negative stuff like that actually didn't impact me either. Like they don't know much about me. The segment looks this way, but what I do remember feeling like, so for a while I didn't go on like live shows, even podcasts like this, actually, because I needed a break. So I only did like interviews

that are written actually. Yeah. Right. Right. Understandably. The Apple watch series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X.

Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing.

Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So you sort of like step back from there and you're continuing to keep on keeping on. The app is growing.

It's serving a lot of people. We hit March of this year, 2023, right? From what I know at that point, you've got millions of users and then somewhere around, I think, 90,000 active users. And you make an interesting decision, which is not surprising because you took money to help start the company. And part of that, whenever you take other people's money, part of the expectation is at some point, there's going to be an exit. You're going to sell or there'll be some sort of acquisition. So earlier this year, that happens with Simple Habits. The company that actually you're able to transition it to a company called Ingenio, but you have this exit.

It's kind of a partial exit where they sort of take a chunk of it, but it's also this thing where you pivot to the next thing. But the next thing isn't entirely disconnected from the company you had just built. It's sort of like based on a realization that you had about how and why people were using Simple Habits for years. Yeah. So one thing that we learned from Meditation App, Simple Habit, is that number one reason why they were using, our customers were using our app was because of insomnia and sleep issues. And so I was interviewing a lot of our customers, like, why are you using this product? And a lot of them are like, well, I use melatonin or sleeping pills, like Ambien or Trazodone, and I really don't want the grogginess. There's like

nothing else I can do. So we were looking into, okay, how can we help people better with sleep? Like, how can we help people with the sleep? Like how can we help people with the root cause of their sleep issues so that they're not just doing a band-aid solution to their insomnia and sleep issues. And then 2020 hits and luckily and unluckily, I started having insomnia. I went through this whole experience again, that I've only heard about melatonin pills. You wake up super groggy, so's so tired and you just feel so stupid throughout the day. And then I was like, I cannot live like this anymore. So I signed up for Stanford sleep clinic was wait-listed for six months. And you know, if you have insomnia for

even one night, your day sucks. Six months is like a death sentence. So that's when I learned, wow, access to care for a problem that 20, 30% of our Americans have care does not exist. So we started working with some of the doctors at the Stanford sleep clinic and some of the other hospitals digitize what they do at the clinic and created this thing, which at that point was upsell. We're going to offer this to simple habit customers because they have issues with sleep that ended up being like a separate product. Cause we ended up doing some research, realizing that the market for sleep is bigger. Um, so it ended up being what's called sleep reset. And by the time we built the like alpha version, I was still on the wait list at the clinic. So I

actually use sleep reset and it eradicated my insomnia in just a few weeks. And that's when I realized, oh my God, we're onto something really big. I had such a strong conviction about this product. And so then we started, I ended up actually telling the entire team, you know what, starting today, everyone's working on Sleep Reset now. And like, so we're just maintaining Simple habit. So I felt like we're not giving simple habit the love that it deserves. At the same time, we have to focus. So we're focused on sleep reset. And we did this study. So a team of doctors did a study on it, which showed that it increases somebody's sleep time by 85 minutes, which is something that you've like basically unheard of. Even Ambien increases your

sleep time by 30 minutes. And melatonin does not increase your sleep time. It only changes the onset of your sleep. So this product is so efficacious. It reduces time to fall asleep or time awake in bed by half. So that's when I was like, you know what? We need to get this in the hands of way more people because they are right now on sleeping pills, unhappy with the side effects and grogginess of it. So that's how it came about. So I had to make a very hard decision, which is like, I love Simple Habit.

It's like a dream company. But at the same time, Sleep Reset is awesome. And in fact, I think that the problem that we're solving is the same. How can we improve people's quality of life? And one is by helping people reduce stress and anxiety. The other way is by helping people with sleep issues, which I think is fundamental to one's wellbeing and mental health. So that's how it came about. I love the way that you came to it. It's interesting. I'm a long time meditator also, and I've used a whole bunch of different apps and one that I've used

for many years, which has a lot of different people and a lot of different types. And I realized one day that you can sort for the type of meditation and then you could also sort for the most popular. So I was like, oh, let me check this out. What's the most popular? And so I hit the button and I'm like, sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep, sleep. And I was like, wow. So the vast majority of people are using this, not just for daily meditation or stress relief or for work, they're using it for sleep. And that was a huge light bulb moment that was, I think, similar to what you were saying. It must've been interesting for you though, because you also had data from the inside of

how people were using Simple Habits for years. And I would imagine that data showed that of all the different content on there, probably the vast majority of people, even of that app, were using probably sleep-related meditations. And that must've been another signal for you. Actually, that's what got us to start talking to customers, start talking to doctors, because less than 10% of our content library was for sleep, but it represented over 70% of engagement. That's huge. Yeah. So we knew there was something about sleep that we need to do.

And then as we were interviewing customers, we realized there's no access to care that all these clinicians talk about all the time as the most efficacious thing, CBTI. So there was a disconnect in what's available for consumers today and what clinicians and doctors agree on. So one of the reasons why Americans, I think in particular, we love a quick fix. We're always kind of like, give me the button, give me the the pill, give me like whatever it is that's just going to fix it. And I'm happy in about eight weeks of behavior change. Like you said, CBT, I was built into it, being short for cognitive behavioral therapy, coaching. And there is no pill that you're getting in the mail. There are no meds attached to this. There's no magic bullet here. That's a really bold thing because you're asking people to basically say no to a whole

bunch of things that are already on the market, promising effectively the same outcome as you, but you're saying, I want you to actually exert a lot more effort to get what is being marketed as similar results. From a business standpoint, I would imagine that's not an easy sell, but it sounds like maybe what you've built is actually working so well that it's converting people to become not just customers, but evangelists. Yeah. You have to believe that the market of people out there who have tried quick fixes and they didn't work and they want something different. Like you have to have the hypotheses that that market size is big. And I do. And I

actually talk to them every day. These are people who have done sleeping pills and they're either worried about getting Alzheimer's because there's research around how sleeping pills can increase your risk of that. The other thing is that a lot of these pills impact your ability to have stage and sleep, which is what you need in order to feel like well rested in the morning, which is why oftentimes when you use these pills, you feel like groggy and a little hungover and you still feel like you're not yourself. These are the types of people that are willing to do something like this because they know that the quick fixes don't work for them. Yeah. When you make this shift, is it the same basic team that you had

for Simple Habits? Yeah. So you go into them, I imagine it's not one day, it's like a series of conversations that says, basically, we've all been working so hard to build this one thing. And now we're kind of doing something. It's related, but something entirely different. As a founder, I'm always curious about those moments. What was that like? Terrifying, especially because we were in a market where good talent is scarce, right? It's a fight for talent.

And these people joined this company thinking they're working on a meditation app. Now they're working on a sleep program. So it was terrifying. I was like, oh my God, what if they all quit? But I am so grateful to my team. So like my first engineer that I hired at Simple Habit, the second engineer that I hired at Simple Habit, they're all still with Sleep Reset today after many years now.

And I think it's the relationships that I built with them. I appreciate that they trust in me as a leader. But also, I think they were part of the journey, too. It's not like there was a curtain where I went back and I was like, you know what? I'm going to do this thing. It wasn't like that. It was like everyone had access to the same data. The data that there was something about sleep everyone had access to the qual interviews where

customers were talking to customers with insomnia who are not having enough solutions or the right solutions and they were also part of this alpha program and they saw firsthand the testimonials from customers who are like i've been on pills for a decade now. I'm able to get off of pills because of this program. So they all see it too. So in retrospect, it was not a hard journey at all. But when I thought, oh, am I going to lose all these people that I love, that I trust? So yeah. Hindsight is always like, of course, that was obvious it would happen this way. But in the So, yeah. at it. You're like, this is cool. I work hard. I like to work hard. I have more control, but it was really starting simple habits that made you realize, but I need to actually be able to see

that I'm having a tangible impact on people's lives. It seems like that thing for you has become this consistent through line. It can never just be about starting a company or making a profit or having like a nice exit from my investors. There's got to be a deeper sense of purpose. Yeah. That deep purpose is deeper sense of purpose is what keeps you in the game when things are super hard because like entrepreneurial journey is like up and down, right? There are times where you love your job. There are times where you love your job.

There are times where you hate your job, right? But if I have that strong mission behind it, like I know that my time is being spent on the right things. It like keeps me going and keeps me motivated. And you just get, it's so rewarding when I hear from customers who are like, this program changed my life. Like I'm now able to sleep better and i'm able to be a better mom better co-worker to my other co-workers yeah it's really nice and i think

kind of comes full circle because i always told people like if people ask like oh what do you want to be like if you could be born again and like do a different career i would i always said like i want to be a doctor that wasn't an option for me. Cause I didn't go to like, I didn't take biology classes and like all this stuff, right? Like going full circle back to like, when I was thinking about going to med school back in banking times, but I feel like I have almost like, like not that I'm a doctor, but I almost have an impact of what a doctor would do by helping people with their sleep, but at scale. So it's a cool job. And in kind of a fun way also, the different things that you've created are also helping solve the problems that so many entrepreneurs deal with on a regular basis. So it's sort of

like you continue to scratch your own itch while also creating a culture for other people while having a bigger impact on the customers. And I think when you, as a founder, can sort of align those things, right? The possibility for magic increases. There's no universal solution. This is how you build a great company that's super profitable and are really happy and healthy and all these things. But when you're doing something that's genuinely personal to you, when you can create something where the people that you're working with feel supported and engaged also, and it's making an impact in a way that you really care about, the stars tend to align much more readily. At least I've found that. And like you said, it's really hard no matter what. So you might as well work on that level of purpose if you can. Yeah.

Feels like a good place to come full circle in our conversation as well. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? I actually ask this question to myself a lot in my therapy session. And everyone's good life? What comes up? I actually ask this question to myself a lot in my therapy session, like, and everyone's good life is different. But for me, I have this like ingredients that I look at for ingredients. One is like health. And then the other one is relationships, relations with my husband, with my family, my friends. The other one is meaningful work. And last one is very personal, but relationship with God.

And the last one I struggled with because I was like, does God exist? Does a creator exist? Like, and that's been like a kind of exploration of mine. Like, why are we all here on earth? But anyways, these four, so I always like look at these four ingredients, like four kind of sections.

And I put in green, yellow, red green yellow red i'm green uh relationship green yellow red some there were times where i was like not talking to any friends because i'm so busy there were times i was like not talking to my family so it was like red and i try to make it green by like you know having that connection meaningful work has been recent years has been always green for me. And then this relationship with God part was like, has been red for a while. I'm trying to be like, okay, like I'm, you know, doing more there. But yeah, those are the elements that I look at and to see, do I have a good life or not?

Very cool. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you'll also love the conversation that we had with Brad Feld about the journey from finding your purpose to guiding people through founding companies to find their own purpose. You'll find a link to Brad's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one

person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you wanna help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered

because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday.

We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die.

Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot?