Good Life Project - The Power of Contagious Generosity | Chris Anderson

Episode Date: March 25, 2024

Can generosity go viral? TED curator Chris Anderson believes it can in our hyperconnected world. In his new book Infectious Generosity: The Ultimate Idea Worth Spreading, Chris explores how small acts of kindness can ripple out in surprising ways. Learn how to tap into the asymmetric power of generosity, fight online negativity with delight, and share stories that light up human emotions. Chris and host Jonathan Fields discuss how practicing courage, creativity and authenticity can help spread compassion across our infinite global village. Get inspired to unleash more goodness and be the start of a contagious generosity movement.You can find Chris at: Website | Instagram | Episode TranscriptIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Dacher Keltner about the power of awe.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED. Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

What could you give away that might amaze you? I feel passionate about this because this was our experience at TED. We discovered that after we took the risk, and it was a risk at the time of giving away our content, that is the start of everything good that ever happened to TED. And it forced us almost to adopt the strategy of radical generosity. Generosity is instinctive. The desire to respond to generosity is instinctive.

The desire to be uplifted when you see someone else being generous is instinctive. The desire to respond to generosity is instinctive. The desire to be uplifted when you see someone else being generous is instinctive. Those three things together in an age where we're connected like never before, that is what creates this incredible engine of possibility that we really could imagine an era where acts of kindness spread like never before. So kindness, simple acts of generosity can change your life, your relationships, maybe even your community. But what if there was a way to scale simple acts of kindness on a global level? Can you imagine how that might make not just your own life better, but potentially change the world? And at a time we need it more than ever. In his new book, Infectious Generosity, The Ultimate Idea Worth Spreading, Chris Anderson explores how to spark contagion of generosity

that spreads around the world. And as a longtime iconic curator of TED, he spent over two decades immersed in ideas worth spreading. Under his leadership, TED has grown into a global platform that provides free knowledge to hundreds of millions of people. And now Chris is on a bit of a mission to spread infectious generosity. And he's not just imagining some fantasy world where everyone wears rose-colored glasses. He's gone deep into the research, the stories, and the mechanisms to make it happen. And in our conversation, he shares specific insights, strategies, and stories to not only start bringing more kindness into your daily life, but to be a part of the global ripple of generosity that just might hold the power to make this world

a better, kinder, more connected place. In this age of infinite connection, one small act of generosity truly can ripple out in surprising ways, and change starts with one brave move. That's where we're headed today. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th.

Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?, I want to say it's of the moment, but it's so just interconnected with the human condition that it's always of the moment. It's just, we seem to be focusing back on it in a different way. And I feel like a lot of this is related to what you write about, which is this notion that it's felt for so many people, like culture in general is just trending meaner and more self-centered in a lot of different ways. Take me into what you see going on here. I think the world is getting meaner and and more self-centered in a lot of different ways. Take me into what you see going on here. I think the world is getting meaner, and I'm sick of it. I think most people are sick of it. And I think, and I hate to say this because I'm a tech optimist, I guess, at heart, I think the

internet's played a meaningful role in this. The last 10 years of the internet have been crushingly disappointing. Social media especially has found a way to dial up the angriest, most divisive voices. And I think has really shaped how we think of each other and talk about each other. I think it's really dangerous. And it's a big motivator for the book, really. I mean, one way of thinking about the book is that it's an attempt to figure out, can we turn the tide here? Can we find a way in which acts of kindness become more prevalent instead of just acts of nastiness? So take me a little bit more into the argument around social media and also just media writ

large. I think at this point, the organization that you've sort of been in part the face of, deeply involved in curating conversations around for more than two decades now, it is a part of culture. It is a part of what a lot of people would think as both new and old media at this point as well, but you've done it very differently. But what are you seeing more specifically? What's happening underneath the hood that you feel is driving this part of the human impulse? Because it's not the only part of the human impulse. No, that's right.

I think for me, there's two main things. I mean, first of all, I think a lot of people are familiar with these cognitive biases we have towards threats. We pay more attention to threats than to opportunities. Probably helped us survive at some point, but it means that people who use the language of threat gain more attention. It's just, you know, you're just tapping into, you know, human focus. And there's another reason why news media in general, and certainly social media, I think painting on average, actually a false

picture of the world. And it's this, good things happen slowly, bad things happen quickly. This is just part of the way the universe is, you know, it's a chaotic thing out there for something good to happen. People have to plan it, they have to intentionally reorganize things to make something good. A building is designed and it can take years for that to happen and then years for it to get built and go through all the approval process and so forth. At no stage, at no moment does someone say, hold the front page, a noob was laid. But a bomb can take down that building in a minute. If the question that you're asking, and most news media are asking this question, is what is the most dramatic thing that happened in the last few hours? Almost always the answer to that is going to be bad.

Then collectively, that means we listen to the news and what we hear is bad, and then bad, and then more bad. And the cumulative effect of that is actually to give us a false view of the world because we're missing all of those slow but good things that have been happening in the background. We just don't pay attention to them. And so, you know, we think the worst of ourselves and of the world and we feel despair when we think of the future. I just, I think that's, that's really, really, really unfortunate. And actually it's getting to the point where it's quite dangerous. No, that makes a lot of sense, you know? And then when you fold in the notion that social media, when now so many people actually get their news, get it, like this is where they become informed about the world. Not just, you know, I remember in the very early days

of Facebook where there were only a couple of things you could do on there. And it was more like sharing what you were doing on any given moment. It's not that anymore. None of these platforms are when so much of what you're exposed to becomes algorithmically determined. And those algorithms are tuned to what will make you stay on the platform for as long as humanly possible, because the business model is around advertising. Then what you're saying makes a lot of sense from a sort of a, quote, just a pure business, a profit and loss standpoint. Well, sure. If outrage and rage and bad things are going to keep you tuned in because of the threat response we have, let's just keep feeding you that in the algorithm because that'll keep you there longer and it'll generate more exposure to advertising. So it seems like the newer media is sort of piling

on to what more traditional broadcast media has known for generations now about attention spans. Yeah, I think that's right. And I don't myself see it as this evil plot that a bunch of people plan on. I think the algorithms discovered it about us, that what we pay most attention to is often dark. And that just got amplified and amplified. But if you do all this amplifying of our lizard brains, at some point, you basically turn us all into lizards. That's not good. I don't want to live in a world of lizards. I want to live in a world where the better part of ourselves, our better angels are in control and finding ways of, you know, telling different kinds of stories. And those other stories are everywhere and very real, and they're just invisible and it's a tragedy.

And that's such an important point, you know, to come back to also it's this, when all we see is the negativity, it is so easy for us to default to the assumption that, well, this is the world. What you're offering is, let's not put our heads in the sand. This is a part of the world. This is a part of the human story, but it's not the entirety of it. You know, there's so much more that is good, that is connecting, that is generous and benevolent that we're not telling. That's right. And in the connected age that we're in, even more amazingly, the good things that can happen with a little bit of tweaking and a little bit of pushing can actually spread further because when millions of people are connected to millions of people, you have this

amazing phenomenon called virality, where if 10 people pass things on to 11 people, suddenly millions of people come to know about it. So the difference, like when you think about the work that you're doing, say you're a marketer or storyteller or you just want good things for the world. You might think, well, I just have to work a bit harder to get that many more people to do it. Yeah, you may reach a point where suddenly interest explodes. If you can find that point and cross it, then your 20% of extra effort doesn't just mean 20% more people here. It may mean thousands of percent more people here. And so it's worth so much just paying attention to what it takes to cross that chasm and to reach that, you know, what makes something ignite.

And often it can be quite small. You know, it's maybe quite a small difference. We, it's definitely true that left to our own devices, the good things we share are more boring than the bad things we share. It's just who we are. That is worth paying attention to and trying to correct. Can we make the good things non-boring? If we do, it changes everything. Yeah, no, that makes so much sense. And it's funny, as you're describing that, I'm thinking, my brain was literally scanning, what was the last thing that I happened to see on some social feed that I just immediately felt an impulse to share with everybody I know? And it was deeply positive. It was the thing that left a lump in my throat for the best of reasons. So it is possible,

like we can actually cross that chasm and say like throat for the best of reasons. So it is possible that we can actually cross that chasm and say like, this is the stuff too. And what you said right there is one of the key reasons why things go viral. You said a lump in your throat, you felt emotion, you felt a deep emotion. When people feel a powerful emotion about something, they will share it, they will spread it. And unfortunately, a lot of the powerful emotions people feel are darker emotions. Every emotion can lead to things being shared. And so sometimes it's just the way we tell a story. Sometimes we're lazy.

Sometimes we don't really put ourselves into revealing the actual human aspect of what we're talking about. I mean, I'm at fault in this a lot as well. I'll tell a talk and it'll sound, I don't know, overheady or something like that. I'll then tell a story about, I don't know, how I was inspired by my mother and how, you know, although she passed away a couple of months ago, I'm so grateful to her. I'm inspired by her and some of what she taught and what she lived. I really, really want to be shared further and to be out there in the world. So figuring out how we share stories in a way that taps into who we authentically are as humans, that's definitely a big part of it. That's one of the catalysts that can make all the difference. Yeah. So I want to tease out two different things that we've kind of been weaving into one conversation. One is the notion of how do we share in a way where a lot of people are

moved by it and then decide to share it as well. But the fundamental thing underneath that is how do we share the stories, the impulses around the good, around the part of human nature, the generosity of spirit that really centers that part of the story so that we can make that more a part of our life, a part of our experience. So talk to me a bit about just the notion of generosity in general. It's interesting. I was recently talking to a friend who gave a keynote and she proposed to the audience that human beings are fundamentally good, that they're generous, that they're kind. In the line of questioners at the end of that talk, she got a lot of pushback. And a lot of people were saying, no, this is not my

understanding. This is not my teaching. In fact, this was not my maybe even faith tradition. Talk to me about your lens on this. Yeah, it's not quite how I'd frame it. I'm with Solzhenitsyn, I think, on this, that the line between good and evil doesn't run between nations or identity groups or classes. It runs through every human art. I think we are fundamentally good and also fundamentally bad. And it depends on the moment and the circumstance. And what's so complicated about this is that we're a social species, everything that each of us does has ripple effects with others. And so, yeah, I resonate with that one comment that your faith tradition may not have taught that. I was definitely brought up religious. I was brought that, you know, we were born into sin as it were. That feels a creepy worldview to people now for understandable

reasons. But I think how that worked out in practice is that we viewed life as this battle between God and the devil inside you, you know, you're in a demons, you're in angels, whatever language you want to talk about. And that forced you to pay attention to how you felt about individual things. Like it forced you to try to find the better side of yourself. I think people have dark sides to themselves. And in the current environment, those dark sides can easily be aroused and dominate who we are. And we can become people who we're actually not that proud of being. We can become patient and dismissive and angry and all those things. And the language I use now is not demons and angels, but it's our instinctive self and our reflective self. And our instinctive self isn't all demonic. It's actually very good. As Danny Kahneman would say, it's our system on thinking. It's unconscious. It's fast. It actually accounts for a lot of the joys and

pleasures of life and a lot of human genius. We are amazing at making clever decisions really quickly without even thinking about it. It happens all the time. But we are also in that mode prone to deep forces that have shaped our evolution of many years and that don't really apply that well to the modern era. You know, we crave sugar and fat and as much of it as possible and we devour it as soon as we can find it. That's problematic in a world of abundance. We find it really hard not to procrastinate. You know, there are so many distractions and, you know, we've got this reasoning self, that reflective self that says, I really think I should be spending more time doing that. But this other thing is so alluring.

So, so much of life is about trying to empower our reflective selves over our instinctive selves. To me, that would be lesson one in every educational system. And it's probably lessons two, three, four, five, six. It's a lifelong task to figure out how to do this. Maybe religion used to play a role in helping people do it. Maybe parenting does play a role, but not in every family. I think we've forgotten how to do this. And I think when social media were built, they forgot just how powerful the instinctive side of us is and how easy it is to lead people to becoming and spending time doing what their reflective self really isn't proud of or doesn't like or doesn't, you know, feels regretful of. But it's a form of addiction. Every addiction is like this.

You know, we have these powerful forces in us that we find it hard to resist. I think everyone has good inside them. And the amazing thing about generosity is that just a very few psychopaths, it is a deep instinct wired deep inside you. When you see someone else suffering, you will feel something and you will want to help them in some way. We're wired to connect to each other's feelings. If someone is generous to you, you will feel an intense desire to respond. It's who we are. And if we don't, we become hated freeloaders and cheaters. So it's all in there. And what's so urgent about the current moment is that we're in danger of losing that part of us and the nurturing and nourishment of that part of us in favor of the nurturing and nourishing

of the bad part of us that is turning us into people who hate and who despise and who are angry and who have disgusted. And those feelings make it impossible for different groups to really connect, achieve anything. And without that, we're giving up humanity's biggest superpower, the ability for us to

cooperate and build amazing things. Yeah, I so agree with that. You know, it's a classic story of the good wolf, the bad wolf, you know, like which one wins is the one you feed. And you're centering the notion that it's not like one thing is instinctual and the other just takes really concerted effort over time. Because I do think, and I think this is what you're saying, and I would agree with this if it's right, that generosity is as instinctual as the negative things that we feel, but we are

so much less practiced at centering that in our lives that it doesn't feel as much of our default state anymore. And we have to actually engage in the work of bringing it back to a place of just such a regular experience that it becomes more automatic in the way we move through the world. Does that make sense to you? 100%. It's a muscle. It's like anything that you do as a human. The more you do it, the more powerful that muscle gets.

It both becomes easier to do and you get to discover again and again, the unexpected upside of being generous, which is that it brings happiness with it. This has been shown time and again, scientifically and in reported experience of people. You discover that you like being your better self and you feel a greater sense of meaning and purpose and happiness. And the more that you get reminded of that, the more it becomes natural to want to exercise that muscle. And every time you do, others respond and ripple effects happen. So, you know, when the cycle is turning the right way, it is truly a beautiful thing. And what's got me so excited is that because we're in a connected age, there are so many ways in which we can signal to each other and spark each other to respond in a delightful

way. There are amazing stories out there of how this is happening. And the more people just pay attention to that and buy into that, then just maybe, just maybe there's a pathway to hope. Yeah, completely on board with that, you know. And for those who are curious, there is actual, there's a significant body of research around how generosity affects us. You know, I'm sure many people are familiar with the work of Adam Grant, Sonia Lubomirsky, and they often describe it in popular parlance as the giver's glow. We give because there's something that wants to be of service or help others. And yet there is

this measurable, sustained, psychological and emotional benefit to us in the act of actually being generous. And researchers have even parsed, what's the best way to do it? Do you do it all at once in one big thing? Do you spread it out in little sprinkles every day? And how does that change the effect? But what you're describing also is another part of the phenomenon. And I've seen a little bit of the research on this,

which is the sort of pro-social effect of witnessing generosity as well. So it's not just about the person who's giving and the beneficiary or beneficiaries, but there's something that's kind of magical that happens when people see this phenomenon that brings them into it as well. Jonathan Haidt talks about this moral elevation. You don't even have to see it in the real world. You can just see it on video and it increases the chances that you will be kind. You know, I tell the story in the book briefly of like, okay, so a person pulls up to a traffic light, it's raining, pouring with rain, notices a person by the side of the road, gets out of the car, gets soaked, gives that person

his umbrella, goes back in the car and drives off. Kind people have done this from time to time, no doubt, as long as there have been traffic lights. But this particular act was 2022, it was picked up on video. That video was then seen by millions of people. And when you look at the comments on Reddit, for example, responding to this, it's just clear that that moral uplift, that sense of elevation is there in space. People were saying things like, I'm so inspired by this. Well, he really did that. Boy, I have got to pay attention to people on the side of the road. One person wrote, I'm now going to carry more umbrella. I'm going to carry several umbrellas

inside my car. So in an age where one person's act can change the mindset of a very large number of people, that feels like in principle that that could be incredibly hopeful. Yeah. X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him! We need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk.

I mean, you used the phrase, the infinite village. Is this what we're talking about? Or is there a more expansive understanding that you have of it? Yeah, the infinite village. So we evolved in communities of about maybe 150 people, or so they tell us. Now, the people we can be connected to is everyone. And so what are the rule changes there? I think the traditions of generosity have all been built around the assumptions that we're in a small community. And in the connected age, I think we have to pay specific attention and be willing to change our thinking about it a bit. I mean, one of the most

obvious things is that precisely because it's easier now to give to a huge number of people for actually zero cost. If you can give something online, it's knowledge or music or, you know, beautiful photography or art or video software, things that we value, those things can be given away for free to huge numbers of people. Well, we should put more emphasis on that and encourage people to do that, even if their motivation to do it is sometimes slightly mixed, you know, because all those people get that thing, maybe they hope for enhanced reputation, you know, across the world. Now, traditionally on generosity, if we think people are doing something for reputation reasons, we may discount it. It's like we're supposed to give anonymously and all the rest of it.

I think we can't do that in the connected age. I think we need to celebrate every reason for people to give more because there is so much at stake here. Whether someone chooses to give something or not, it's not just three people who will benefit. It can be millions of people who benefit. And so, I think this idea of encouraging everyone almost to work out, I would say, their generosity strategy. What could you give away that might amaze you? I feel passionate about this because this was our experience at TED. We discovered that after we took the risk, and it was a risk at the time of giving away our content, that is the start of everything good that ever happened to TED happened.

People responded. You know, this stuff spread around the world and people wanted to help and translate us and all the rest of it. And it forced us almost to adopt this strategy of radical generosity. And so we started, you know, we gave away our brand so that people could do TEDx events around the world. We didn't control. They controlled them. It was a risk. But it led to 3,000 mostly beautiful events around the world happening and huge numbers of videos being

recorded and so forth. So the rules are different now. An infinite village is different from just a village. And we need to pay attention to that. What we hold onto and what we give away, not the same now. And it's exciting if we embrace the potential of what this possibility of giving to so many people could imply. Yeah, that makes so much sense. The way you described the decision, Ted, to say, hey, listen, we are creating really highly valuable content and experiences from some of the most incredible thinkers and feelers and doers and creators in the world.

Let's just give it away and see what happens. Now, granted, there is an event where people can come to, and there are now actually thousands of smaller events like Satellite, the TEDx, as you described. But the notion of what if we take this risk and we're investing all of this energy in creating something and give it away and trust. I was very fortunate to have, I'd say, Sir Ken Robinson on the show. And we had a wonderful conversation. I know the world misses him dearly for so many reasons in so many ways. I don't know if he still has the most viewed

TED Talk on TED, but it's certainly one of them. I think he does. I think he does. Yeah. And I've watched that myself countless times. And then to just sit and ask him questions and I think it does. I think it does. Yeah. like what seeds did that then plant in thousands or millions of other peoples or teachers lives that then sort of like created this like ripple after ripple after ripple so it's not just the immediate experience it's like what am i setting in motion that may i have no idea when this ends or how it ends and i will never know anyone it touches but you just know that it will so this is the thing we We never really know what happens at the end of all those ripples. But when one comes back and you find out about it, it is such a joyful thing. And yes, again, he gave that talk to five or 600 people live at the

time. And it's still today seen every day by several thousand people. 10 years ago, one of those people was this woman who I only met a couple years ago, Supriya Paul. She was a college kid, wanted to be an accountant, or her father wanted to be an accountant. And she saw Sir Ken's talk. And this little video, wriggling its way across the internet, changed her mindset so profoundly. She wanted to do the same thing in India for people in India who didn't have access to education. So she and a partner raised money and they basically started off with their own version of TED for India, didn't ask permission. I don't know if we'd have given it. Certainly now I'm so joyful about it. I'm delighted,

you know, they have their own little red rug and so forth. But it is amazing that this thing now reaches 50 million people plus a month. And I heard about, she described to me some of the people, some of the ripple effects from that, that during the pandemic, someone hears one of her talks and learns that they can find a new way to make a living, which was by sharing knowledge in their village. And then a kid heard that talk and his life has been changed. And so you think, Sir Ken, if you're still with us, for you to know that 8,000 miles away, there's a country being materially impacted by that one talk that you gave, that is just so incredible to me. And it could happen to anyone. We're in an era where butterflies are flapping their wings and hurricanes are happening as a result

every day, every day. So why not try to be one of those butterflies? You describe another really interesting example. The couple, I believe it was, who decided to give away substantial amounts of money anonymously to strangers online and the ripple effect of that. Take me into that story a bit. Right. So that was a couple in the tech community that made a couple million dollar windfall investment and they decided to give it away, but to do so in an interesting way that would lead to new social science. And so we helped working with the University of British Columbia, we helped design this sort of crazy social experiment that we called the mystery experiment.

We invited people to apply for it, not knowing what they were signing up for. And basically 200 people ended up getting, being offered $10,000, no strings attached, be wired into their PayPal account. Took some persuading to accept it. But when they did, the only rule was that they had to tell us what they spent it on. And what they spent it on really blew people away. I mean, two thirds of that money was spent generously. Gifts to all kinds of organizations, as well as gifts to family, friends, strangers. I mean, it was so beautiful to see. And I got to speak to some of the people after the experiment was over and say, what on earth happened to you? Why would you do this? And the typical answer that came back was that, look, I'm not sure I would have done this if I'd just won the lottery.

But because of this couple's, this anonymous couple's generosity, I felt seen. And I felt the need to pass that on and to let others feel seen like I'd felt seen. And so, you know, there was one woman in the UK. There's seven different countries, lots of different income levels. So a woman in the UK who got it and decided she was going to give away all $10,000 in $500 chunks. And then the next day had a tax bill for more than that, $10,000. But she stuck to her guns and she gave it away. And she said, I go to work and I feel joy at every step because I'm seeing another organization

or I walk past places where I've just been able to donate a small amount of money and it meant something to them. So I don't know. The New York Times published a piece on this saying, David Brooks saying, people are more generous than we think. And I think it's profound. And it's because of that. So you put the two things together, right?

Generosity is instinctive. The desire to respond to generosity is instinctive. The desire to be uplifted when you see someone else being generous is instinctive. Those three things together in an age where we're connected like never before, that is what creates this incredible engine of possibility that we really could imagine an era where acts of kindness spread like never before. Yeah, just that notion that generosity begets generosity. And when you look at that at scale, it can be incredibly powerful. As you're describing the stories, I had this instant remembrance of being at an event that a friend of mine put on

for a number of years. And the organization behind the event that he had created was a non-profit. And he knew that he had a certain amount of additional money that came in during that event. So as a final act to close out the event, when a thousand people walked out of the theater, they were each handed an envelope. And in each envelope was a hundred dollar bill. It was like every dollar of the excess was given back. And the only request was, let us know what you do with it. There was no control. There was no, you have to spend it in this way.

You can't buy lattes for yourself. Let us know. And so much of it, again, the people felt so good about like, okay, so this is how do I keep paying it forward? And that was like, there were a thousand people who were seated both emotionally, but also a tiny little stake that they could have used for our own lives. But so many, like you were describing, people wanted to really say, how can I make this feeling happen in other people too?

I love that. That's a great story. And that impulse, I think we forget is a part of us until something reminds us, you know, and then we're like, oh, right, this is part of what life can be about. You also talk about this phenomenon, though, which is this notion of, am I giving right? You know, is it, I want to do it just right. I want to be perfect in the way that I'm doing it. And how that can, it can really be a bit of a stumbling block for generosity for us. First of all, it is right for us to apply our brains as well as our hearts to generosity,

especially when it comes to giving away money. It's all too easy to fall into the trap of giving away money when, you know, you see some story on television of some tragedy or a friend asks because there's a specific need has come up. And it's kind of random. And the truth is that there's an order of magnitude difference between organizations out there that are doing things effectively and wonderfully and really making change and those that haven't really found their way. And it's easily possible to give away money in a way that just creates dependency, et cetera. So it is right to have a plan, to have a generosity plan for your money and to say, how much am I willing to give away each year? Now, what am I going to spend it on? And to think through it. One of the things that goes wrong though, is that

we can get so worked up into saying, am I sure I'm doing this right? That no money ever gets given. And so there's this toxic question that I think a lot of people find themselves asking, which is, am I sure this is the best use of my philanthropy? Well, the answer to that question is always no, you will never be sure. And if you went through the day saying, am I sure this is the very best thing I could do with my next five minutes? You would sit frozen as a statue and be a sad life. The actual question to ask is, is this a good use of my money? I mean, in general, giving is the right thing to do. It's because of our loss aversion, because it's hard to do.

Usually we don't. Giving leads to other people having a chance to do something good in the world. And it probably makes us happier. So finding the right psychology to know, you know, yes, think, but don't overthink. Get to the point where you can just be confident in, say, two or three organizations that you love, get to know the other people who are supporting them. There's joy in that as well, by the way. And then just be a regular giver and find ways of reminding yourself what the benefits are of that and the good that that money is doing. I think that's a good mantra.

Yeah. I was recently talking to somebody about personal finance and she was sharing the research around how a very simple shift in the decision-making process, this goes back to Danny Kahneman's work on loss aversion, right? It makes a profound difference in the way that we save. She said, if you automate the decision, so you're no longer saying, how much of my paycheck will I allocate to savings? You just automate it. Like every paycheck X percent is automatically deducted that you adapt really quickly to not having whatever that amount is available to you to spend.

And then it automates the process of you saving money over a very long period of time that has a tremendous benefit. And I wonder if what you're describing also is subject to generosity. And I guess this is the notion between tithing or tzedakah and all these different traditions. You know, like, let's choose, like, think about how you want it to be allocated, but then just make it a part of, like, take the thought process away from it,

make it an automatic thing. Yeah, exactly. We're very bad at following through on our good intentions. And so we need these life hacks to achieve all sorts of things. And I think a really powerful one is a giving pledge. Certainly religions have believed in this for Judaism and Christianity. It's tithing. It's like, please give 10% of your money away to the church for the poor or whatever. And in Islam, it's zakat. You should give, if you're wealthy or well-off, you should give a 40th of your wealth every year. That's two and a half percent every year of your wealth, not your income. What I say is, if you're not

religious, I'm not religious at this point, particularly. If you're not religious, do we want our ethical values to be lower or higher, or at least as good as those of religions? And I think most people want their ethical standards to be as high. And so what I invite people to consider is to pledge the higher of 10% of income or 2.5%. Because in different circumstances, those pledges have different forces. For most people, 10% of income is the challenging pledge to make. But for the very wealthy, that's not a challenging pledge at all. Many of them don't even have much income at all. They borrow against their wealth or whatever. Two and a half percent of their net worth annually is a huge commitment. I've seen research that many billionaires currently, even the ones that I think want to be givers, are giving less than

0.5% of their net worth annually. And so I think that the force of the pledge is to kind of do your sort of automation every year. You're going to sit down with your family and reaffirm that, you know, this is the kind of areas where we want to give to. And here are the organizations that we found to be effective. And to just do that. And then once you've done it, it becomes part of your lifestyle. And I think that there is an even deeper joy. You know, the obvious joy from giving comes, you know, you give the money and you see someone smile or cry and they're so happy. That is lovely. But there's also a deep satisfaction by saying, I'm proud of being a thoughtful person and of harnessing my generosity instincts in a way that I think is defendable and wise.

And, you know, I think, again, your reflective self can be your friend here and can tell you this was good. So, look, not everyone is in a position where they can do a pledge that high. But I think as a life goal, I think so many things would change if as a society, we just saw this as one of the sort of sensible moral rules that people who could should sign up to sign up, you know, pledge something annually each year, compared, for example, with a lifelong pledge, like the giving pledge, which is a pledge for the by the very rich to give away most of their wealth before they die. That's beautiful, but it's on the never, never. And to actually get around to it, because giving is hard,

so many of them never actually get around to the giving part. And they're going to end up with a will that gives away half the money and then the other half will make their children miserable. It's hard. I also like the fact that we've been talking about, well, how should we think about money and generosity? But you also list this out in the book a number of different ways. Let's say for whatever reason, you feel like you're not in a circumstance where that's available to you right now. And you basically invite people to say, but there are other ways. I am not excluded from this experience. 100%. And one of the things that you explore is, you list out six different things. One is attention, which I think is so beautiful because I often talk about, I use the phrase

exquisite attention. It's this ability to almost cast a spell of attentiveness where the people who are encapsulated in it feel like they've transcended the moment, the world around them vanishes away. And there's just something exquisite. There's something deeply connected about it where you feel seen in a way that rarely happens. And I feel like we discount things like this so often, the value of experiences like that. But then when you actually experience it,

you're like, this actually happens so infrequently in day-to-day life now that when it does, you're just captivated by it. And it really is a generosity-driven experience. 100%. I mean, I think actually all generosity starts there with that gift. You can call it a generosity mindset. people need to find their way into a place where they can actually deliberately choose to focus their attention on something outside themselves or someone outside themselves. Usually we could talk about the role that gratitude plays in getting someone to that point because it's hard,

we have all these sort of busy, stressful lives and our default mode is just to sleepwalk through the day almost and just from one mini crisis to another or one calendar obligation to another, to take time out of that and actually look at another human being and try and say, you know, okay, they have a story and maybe they have a need. And so many of the most amazing ripple effects of generosity just start with someone willing to let someone else feel seen. And the beautiful thing about it is that often they themselves then also feel seen in a new way. A woman I know who works with us at events, I gave her the book and she told me the story. It was the smallest story, but she was on the subway and someone came in who she would have been shied away from normally didn't necessarily look super well and so forth. But she plucked up courage and just said, how are you?

And what's your name? And they started a conversation. And, you know, she ended up giving him $10 and it was very meaningful to him. Being seen part was meaningful and it was meaningful to her. She felt differently about herself, I think, from that. And whether it's that or whether it's just being willing to take out time and pay attention to, you know, I know that this is an issue I'm worried about in the world. I'm going to dig into it. I'm going to look at it. You know, I'm going to pay attention to it and I'm going to start that curiosity journey and see where that takes me. That in itself is an act of generosity.

That makes so much sense. One of the other modes of non-monetary giving you talked about is also just sharing knowledge, sharing your wisdom. And we see this happen so organically, I think, in multi-generational families. But there's so many opportunities that I think we miss around us. And we do see it institutionalized in certain fields. I mean, so often in so many different small towns around the country, there are these score organizations where senior mentors, generally entrepreneurs who've often retired, but they just kind of want it. They're like, I know a lot. I learned a lot. I got kicked around a lot. I really want to help young people with ideas in their heads who want to start something. And they just offer their services freely just to share that. And I wonder if there are more opportunities to try and sort of like codify this or institutionalize or create

structure around this, because I do feel like there are so many people who would love to share knowledge, but they don't see a really easy path to being able to actually step into that mode. What's your take on that? I mean, it's such an important gift. You know, one of the most beautiful things about generosity in general is it's asymmetry. It's the fact that the cost to the giver may be far less than the benefit to the receiver this is what makes it possible and knowledge is is a prime example of this of you know it might take you 10 minutes to explain something to someone and it might transform their day or even their life so how do we have more of that well there i mean there are obviously

i mean youtube is actually when you view it way, is this incredible new education engine for the world. Like you can get free knowledge on YouTube on pretty much any topic there is. And I find that astonishing. And some people are putting up videos because they hope to make some ad revenue. Others are just doing it because they want to share their knowledge. And either way, I think it's a really great thing. Could we do more? I mean, probably. Someone could set up some knowledge exchange thing. What do you know? What do you need to know? Try and make a market in connecting people one-on-one because there are types of knowledge that don't, it's not just about recording a video and watching it, it's a conversation. And what's so interesting about so many of those conversations is that, is again, that both people benefit in different ways.

You know, the connections between old and young people are often, yeah, the young person learns knowledge, experience, you know, of life. And the older person eases their loneliness, perchance. There's a human connection there. You know, both are giving a gift, both come away from it feeling richer about being alive. It's going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot.

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You know, we've been talking about some modes of giving but i do want to circle back around to the infectious part of this conversation because i think that's that's where the the game is really changing now like there are all sorts of different ways that we can step into this space of generosity you know and now with this infinite with this global village we can we can we have access to so many more people into to the ripple effect. We talked about one of the ways to help these experiences of generosity or stories of generosity to spread into that global community earlier. And you were sharing how the experience of emotion is one of the things that really allows these moments, these stories to spread. Talk to me a bit more about how we

effectively help nudge generosity to go more viral so that it becomes a more regular experience in people's lives. Yeah. I mean, I think in addition to just figuring out how to evoke authentic emotion, two other very big things. One is just creativity. The more insane, the better. There's so much noise out there. People who can do something in a way that generates, wow, I did not see that coming, break through and they get attention. I mean, to take a fairly well-known example, that whole ice bucket challenge thing that happened. I mean, that was a very creative idea where you wanted to raise money for ALS. They challenged people to dump a bucket of water over themselves and then to name two other people who would have to go through the same thing. And so there was sort of virality built into this, but in a very clever

and creative way and just the fun of it and the craziness of it. This thing spread like crazy. The other one I think is courage. People respond to courage. I tell the story in the book about Daryl Davis, African-American musician who had the courage to reach out to a local member of the Ku Klux Klan and have a meeting with them and listen to them. Very was an intense meeting as it turned out. Amazingly, they somehow formed a relationship. They kept seeing each other. Daryl went to KKK rallies. Eventually, his friend left the KKK and many others did as well. And this story became a news story that spread around the world. The journalist in me is certain that the main reason why CNN said, wow, is because of his courage.

It's like, who would do that? That is a very, very brave thing that he did. And so, you know, it sparks attention. And as a result of his courage, millions of people around the world got to hear about a form of, I will say, generosity that is so important for the moment we're in, which is the willingness to bridge, you know, to listen to your enemies with respect, to try to understand where they're coming from and to understand whether there's any common ground that you can find. The amazing thing is, if you do that, you probably will. In that case, courage lit a fire. So you combine those things

together. And I just think in general, too many of us who are trying to do good in the world fall into this mode of earnest, well-meaning, come on, let's do this. This is going to be good. And it doesn't quite cut through. I think it's lovely and it's good. But if we can figure out how to be bolder, more audacious, more creative, that is what it may take to break through and really have something wild and amazing ripple out and take off. You know, it's interesting as you're describing this, I'm nodding along and there's a sub storyline that's starting to sort of emerge with me, which is that we live in a world now where one person's perception of what is profoundly

generous may be another person's perception of what is profoundly generous, maybe another person's perception of what is profoundly offensive or harmful. And I wonder if people resist what they think is an obvious act of generosity, whether it's sharing knowledge or sharing wisdom or whatever it may be, out of this fear of, but what if I step out into this global village where everything's interconnected? Everything I offer, I put out there will be seen and people can respond to it. And what if my intention of generosity lands in the lap of somebody else who experiences that as harm?

I mean, it's a huge, huge, huge issue. And it does take courage to do it. You will get, if you're on any issue that has been politicized, and many of them have, you're in danger of getting your head blown off, possibly by people on both sides. The thing is that most people actually aren't on those extremes. And I think there is a way of fighting for a sort of a beautiful more reasonable more thoughtful I wouldn't necessarily middle ground but non-extreme ground where there's where actually lots of different people can find some sort of alignment it's interesting I had an experience just two days ago where we'd had this amazing good fortune of having in our home um one of the

developers of of um cultured meat cultured chicken in this case so this chicken grown not from a factory farm but from just a little droplet of muscle cells and you know right now it's a very expensive process and there's a factor for it for a lot of people until you actually see it and i saw it fried in our kitchen and and then sliced up and tasted it. It was absolutely delicious. And our guests thought it was delicious. And it was kind of like how chicken is supposed to be. So I posted a picture of this online and I couldn't believe what happened. I mean, there was just this sort of flood of interest in it. I think it had like more than a million views in about two days and

a thousand people reposted it and comments. Yeah, absolutely. Very, very divided for some people. This is so exciting. I can't wait for this to come. I want a future where my meat doesn't come at the expense of massive animal cruelty. And then there's a whole group who saying, oh, this is Franken food. You know, you're part of this global conspiracy to take away our future and to take away what is natural and God-given and so forth. And so it's really hard to bridge this stuff. And yet you could find in the middle there people who are willing to buy the time and say, you know, I never thought I'd be interested in this kind of meat. But looking at this, it's actually kind of in, I'm open to it. And you could see that there is an addressable group in there. And so if you can get yourself into the position where you just, you don't mind,

you expect, you know, savage comments from some people. That's just the way it is. You have to figure out how to not be owned by those. Then do it. Try and be the bridge here because we need those voices so badly at the moment. Speaking about being the bridge, as we start to come towards the close of our conversation, a lot of people are probably going to be listening to this and say, okay, there are ideas popping into my head. There are things that I didn't really think about before. And if I have financial means to give, great.

And now I have some ideas. If I don't, now I have some other ideas. And I understand that maybe there's a reason to do this in a more publicly observable way. And also this last part of the conversation conversation that there's also some risk to doing this. I'm sure you've had this conversation with so many, both within your organization, with colleagues and friends, but when somebody's listening and they're sort of like at this point where they're like, okay, so I want to take the first step in, but I want to do it in a way where I don't feel like I'm completely confused, I'm paralyzed, I'm doing it wrong, or I'm going to recoil because there's going to be such a negative effect or the risk of that, that it's going to

make me never want to do it again. Do you have a sense for sort of like what an inclusive and easy and accessible first step is when somebody is thinking about this? I'll say two things. One is don't do it alone. Invite a group around, have a dinner. Hospitality is, first of all, one of the most beautiful forms of generosity there is. And it's very deep and it's in every human culture. And so it's beautiful just in itself. It will build friendship. But dream as a group about you might do, say in your community, like are you aware of someone who's doing toiling away under the radar and deserves support? Or is there some issue that you could elevate together or whatever?

Just have that single conversation dinner and see if anything emerges. And then you can gain much more confidence by doing something as a group. And then the second thing I'd say is that we actually built a tool to help people brainstorm and help people figure this stuff out at our site, infectiousgenerosity.org. There's an AI called TIG, the Infectious Generosity Guru. But you can go and connect with TIG and brainstorm. TIG will ask you what your passions are and what your skills are. And then just brainstorm simple acts of generosity. It could be anything from a little event you do with your kids

for the neighborhood or a piece of research, like anything. And some of the plans that we've seen TIG come up with in brainstorming partnership have been absolutely amazing and thrilling. So I think that's, if nothing else, it's fun to try. I love that. And a great example of a use of AI for good. Yes, we hope so. Fantastic.

Well, it feels like a good place for us to come full circle, Chris. So in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Just to look beyond yourself. It's so weird that that is how we're wired. We don't, no one actually leads a good life solo, I don't think. Our good life is led by reaching out to others, seeing how we can make their life better. And somehow the universe arranges it that that makes our own life better. There is exploitation that can happen. It doesn't

happen very often. There's not things you can be wise to, but basically look to the needs of others and be amazed at what happens next. Thank you. episode, say that you'll also love the conversation we had with Dr. Keltner about the power of awe. You'll find a link to Dr.'s episode in the show notes. This episode of Good Life Project was produced by executive producers, Lindsay Fox and me, Jonathan Fields, editing help by Alejandro Ramirez, Christopher Carter crafted our theme music and special thanks to Shelley Dell for her research on this episode. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable,

and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven-second favor, and share it? Maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person. Just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered. Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together.

Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.