Good Life Project - The Story Behind the Voice | Lisa Fischer

Episode Date: November 19, 2019

Even if you don't know Lisa Fischer's name, you do know her voice. A mesmerizing vocalist, Fischer spent decades touring and recording with The Rolling Stones, Luther Vandross, Sting, Tina Turner, Nine Inch Nails, Bruce Springsteen, and many others. That earthshaking voice you hear alongside Jagger on the live version of Gimme Shelter, that's Lisa. She's also recorded and toured on her own, earned a Grammy, been featured in the Oscar-winning documentary 20 Feet from Stardom, and for the last 5 years, Ms. Lisa Fischer has been thrilling audiences with her own shows worldwide.For Lisa, growing up in a neighborhood where loss was a part of the lexicon, she felt like a perpetual outsider. Music was her refuge. She eventually studied opera, then took a turn into R&B, found herself touring with Luther Vandross and other mega-acts, vaulted onto some of the biggest stages in the world. In the midst of this phenomenal success, Lisa wrestled with her own worthiness, and issues of identity, purpose, power, fame, and everything the stage and music industry can bring. We dive into all of this, along with Lisa's take on life, her lens on wonder and possibility, harmony and elevation, alter-egos and true self, and living with one eye on the finality inherent in every moment.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So my guest today is Lisa Fisher. Now, you may know her name, but even if you don't know her name, you do very likely know her voice. She is a mesmerizing vocalist. She spent decades touring with and recording with the Rolling Stones, Luther Vandross, Sting, Tina Turner, Nine Inch Nails, Springsteen, and so many others. That earth-shaking voice you hear alongside Mick Jagger on Gimme Shelter, that's Lisa. And so many other places where you may have been humming along with it or singing along and not knowing it was her.

She also recorded and toured on her own in the early 90s, earned a Grammy, was featured in the Oscar-winning documentary, 20 Feet from Stardom. And for the last five years, Lisa has been selling out venues worldwide with her band, Grand Baton. Interesting thing is that for Lisa growing up in a neighborhood where loss was really a part of her existence, she felt like a perpetual outsider. And she turned to music similar to the way her mom did as a refuge. She eventually went on to study opera and then took this turn into the world of R&B, found herself touring with Luther Vandross and all these other mega acts, vaulted onto some of the biggest stages in the world. And in the midst of all this incredible success, Lisa also really wrestled with her own role in the music business,

whether she should be front and center on the stage or whether her gift and her love was to support and harmonize with others. She explored and wrestled with issues of worthiness and identity, purpose, power, fame, everything the stage and music industry can bring. We dive into all of this along with Lisa's really beautiful and wise take on life, her lens on wonder and possibility, on harmony and elevation, alter egos and true self, and living with one eye on the finality inherent in every moment and the need to

really just be real with people and take advantage of every breath you take. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll be right back. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. It's so, so nice to be hanging out with you today. We're hanging out in New York City right now, and I guess you just came in from Brooklyn, which is where you grew up, Fort Greene. But when I think about Fort Greene now, so for those who are not familiar with Brooklyn and sort of like, you know, Fort Greene now is kind of like

Hipsterville. Profoundly different neighborhood than when you actually grew up there. I have memories of being in Fort Greene and visions of coming out of my elementary school. I went to PS67 and there was police and kids. I was probably in fourth or fifth grade. There was police and kids. It was probably in fourth or fifth grade. And someone in the project right across the street from the school had been pushed out of a window. And you can hear the adults talking in the street. And you're kind of walking around and you see the tarp, you know, over the body. And all I kept thinking was, what a crazy world.

Why would someone want to hurt someone, you know, take someone's life to hurt someone, you know, it's hard enough to walk through this life and care for your own life, let alone having to feel like you have to protect your life from another person or another situation. So I always felt very nervous as a kid, just feeling like things didn't feel sure. There were gangs and, you know. But in the midst of all that, there was joy and there was laughter and there was family and there was playfulness and exploration. I think music for me was the thing that made me feel safe, you know, being with my brothers and with my parents and my grandparents, mostly family, made me feel safe, you know. Yeah. How does music start to show up in your life? Wow. Like when I was little? Yeah.

Oh my gosh. That smile is telling me like in every way possible. It made me, when you asked that, it made me think of my dad and my mom, because they, they were young parents, you know? And so there was always music. There was, you know, always dancing and finger snapping and hip-hopping and, you know, glasses clinking and giggling and singing, a lot of singing. And my grandparents, my father's parents, gifted us an upright piano, and it was just the opening to a whole other universe. You know, because my mom would play it. She was a stay-at-home mom, and she would play it. And I think once my dad left for work and all the kids were out, it was like her time to refuel.

You know, she would have a little piano and the piano would be speaking to her. She'd be connecting with it. So by the time we would come home for lunch or come home from school, she was pretty chill, you know. It was, I think, everybody's saving grace, You know, the piano or listening to some music. Like during Christmas time, we would have this silver, I guess it's considered kind of retro and cool now, but back when I was a kid, it was considered smart to have a tree that you didn't have to buy and cut and break down.

So this beautiful silver tree, and you'd slide them out of these little kind of waxy packets, and you'd stick them into the pole, and it was like a thing. And then there was the color wheel, and there were balls. And after we were done trimming the tree, and my mom or dad would plug in the color wheel, they'd put on a record, and we would just sit together and just watch. Wow, it's making me want to cry. We would sit and watch the colors change.

And that, to me, was like the most peaceful time, you know. I yearn for those times. And you also, you have two younger brothers as well, right? I did. I have one left now. I have two brothers. One was Donnie, and the baby brother is Anthony. Anthony is, thank God, still with us.

Donnie had prostate cancer. I'm so sorry. Thank you. Spread to his bones. And he was funny and he was brave. And he was one of those kind of guys that hated to go to the doctor. It was just, you know, just not feeling it. And so when he was having some issues with his knees,

bottom line, he found out that it wasn't just issues with his knees. And so, you know, it was touring and going back and forth and just trying to make sure he was okay, that he had everything he needed. And, you know, between myself and my family we just all came together and just did everything we had to do and i think he taught me so much about uh the circle of life without even realizing it you know it's a lot of times i i try to run from it you know we're so busy trying to live. Nobody really wants to think about that chapter of their lives.

So he would say, listen, I'm not afraid of dying. He says, I'm afraid of pain. I was like, well, we're going to try and make sure that you are in the least amount of pain possible unless I got you. So it was a blessing to watch him maneuver and live every day through the discomfort. He would play all kinds of funny things on TV and listen to his music, smoke a little weed, whatever he had to do to feel good, talk to a friend, his kids. And once it got to the point where it was just unbearable, my prayer was that I could be there when he actually walked through the veil, when he actually made his transition.

So I was very blessed to hold his hand and speak to him. And because, you know, when I was little, when my parents were like, you're the oldest, you take care of your brothers. Make sure you take care of your brothers, right? And so not only for him, but I think for my own sense of feeling like I did what my parents would have wanted me to do and what I wanted to do. Because, you know, I'm the oldest sister. I want to be sure they're okay. I just didn't want him to feel alone when he made that transition.

And so that was a gift. And I'm just grateful for his peace or what I imagine his peace to be. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and, you know, or what I imagine his peace to be. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, and, you know, the part of this I would imagine also is that, you know, your mom passed when you were in your late teens. So effectively you're playing the role of not just older sister,

but to a certain extent, you know, like surrogate mom. I mean. Yeah. Yeah. I was lucky that I don't look at things in time anymore as much as I look at things in quality. Like the thickness of maple syrup or molasses. Life is thick like that. I don't look at it as how much molasses is on the plate. I look at the viscosity. Did I say that right?

Viscosity. Works for me. Yeah. I want life to feel syrupy and full and rich because we don't know. We don't know and we're not meant to know. And so I think with that not knowingness and the awareness of knowing that there's finality at any moment, it really reminds me to trim off the bullshit.

Just trim it off. Just, you know, trying to be in someone else's head to me is a waste of time. I can either speak to someone about something that I might fear they may feel and they can either share it truthfully or not. And I can look at it and see how those words feel if they ring true to me and then deal with that. I feel that's a better use of my time when dealing with the world and people. Everything kind of goes to my gut. That's the thing that I trust.

Because sometimes I think thought can be so faulty, at least for me. You know, unless... Thought compared to feeling or to intuition? Yeah, thought compared to, like, information. Because when you think about something, it's built on information. Right. At least in my head, I was thinking like, OK, so one in one is two. Cool.

But maybe there's a realm where that's not true. You know, what you would think is the norm may not be the norm anymore. The things that we have built our lives on and what we think we trust may not necessarily be stable. The world is shifting, the world is changing, and oh, so much is changing. And I feel like I need to stay pliable and open-minded. Yeah. pliable and open-minded you know yeah did i mean as we sit here now um

if you think back to certainly the earliest days i'm curious is this is this a lens that you bring to the way that you you live your life sort of like at this moment or do you feel like that touchdown much earlier because of the loss or because of where you were brought up and that sense of hypervigilance that you sometimes had to carry? I think it's the sense of loss and the sense of constant fear. Yeah. You know, brought up in the 60s, everything had to look a particular way. The grandparents come over, you guys have to clean up, things have to be a certain way. You can be seen but not necessarily heard completely. Yeah, just that whole thing of things have to be presented in a particular way.

And in some cultures, that's kind of a cool thing. I remember going to Bali, and I was at a hotel, and one of the workers there was just so special to me. There was something about his smile. It felt honest. It felt true. It felt like it wasn't like, I'm working here and I have to smile for the people. It came from a very real, beautiful place.

And it felt like sun on my skin. And I was just like, wow you your smile is just so amazing and he's like thank you and he's very humble and we kept talking and basically what he ended up saying was you know when we smile here it's to bring joy you know know, it's, you know, a lot of people walk around looking how they feel on the inside, you know,

and in a lot of ways, that's a beautiful thing. And in other ways, it can be oppressive to the viewer, right? You know, sometimes it gets on you. You know,

and sometimes I think it can get on yourself. You know, you catch a glimpse of yourself and you're like, wow, I look really, wow, I look how I feel right now. Let me see if I can remember how it looks when I feel good and see if somehow that can reverse the way I'm feeling, you know. But I don't even know how i got down that road but yeah no but it is it is interesting the way that that our our physiology um can shift our state of being our emotional or psychological state of being once we actually become aware of how we're physically carrying ourselves how we physically you know and i i think we've all had those, you know, walking past a mirror moment. You're like, wait, wait, what? Like, oh, okay, now I get it. You

know, let me, let me see if I can actually do something different. But so, so, so music becomes a big part of your life. And it sounds like to a certain extent it becomes this, the way that it was for your mom as sort of like a place to touch stone. It became very much that for you at an early age too. Yeah. It was, it really, okay. So my brothers were cool with going outside and playing and stuff like that, but I was traumatized.

I just felt like I didn't want to have to fight every single day. I just didn't, I felt like my, how can I explain this? I guess in my child mind, I felt very fragile and I didn't like fighting. I didn't like, I didn't understand it. You know, it just didn't make any sense to me. And so I always felt out of place. And so I always seem to gravitate towards people who also resonated that feeling of being out of place or people who are really kind in a really unkind environment. One of my best friends who is no longer here, her name was Tawana. She knocked on my door. It must have been, I don't know, 10. And she speaks to my mom. She's like, hi, Ms. Fisher. My name is Juana. And my teacher told me I should come by. And I'm looking around the corner. My mom goes, you have a visitor. I'm like, who's that? I didn't even know who the person was. She introduced herself. And we were thick as thieves. I mean, to our adult time. And just memories of those things in between all the madness, it balanced me. But she was one of those girls who was also like,

she would watch the news and see something terrible happen and she would sit there and cry she was way more sensitive than i was which was i thought pretty sensitive and i think we really related to each other on that level i felt like i knew her soul i think she she knew mine and uh, yeah, I miss her. I miss having those kind of, and it's funny because the older I get and the more people transition to the next place, the more I miss people. You know, the more I go, wow. I don't want to be 70 and feel like I don't know anyone, you know.

And I, it's like I feel like I need to encourage not only myself, but other people to make as many connections as you can. You know, it's so easy to kind of, you know, live in your phone or live in the computer or live in an alternate world. But to really walk out in the street and spend time with people and see if there's a connection to be made, you know, it's a scary thing

to kind of put yourself out there, but I think it's necessary, you know? Yeah, so agree with that. Yeah, I think we're in a, it feels like we're in a moment, really the last five years or so, where I feel like the level of sustained anxiety and awareness of isolation

within the context of theoretical connection is we're feeling it. I don't know if so many people understand that the source of what they're feeling is actually that. But I feel like we're starting to awaken to that to a certain extent. And I feel like there's a bit of a pendulum swing that's starting to happen back to, hey, can we just go for a walk? Yeah. You know, rather than let's text.

Yes. Yes, yes. You know, time is so precious. I do feel that people realize that time is precious. I know I feel that way, the older I get especially. And so who we spend our time with is really, you know, it should be nourishing on some level, even if it's uncomfortable, it should be nourishing on some levels. And so, you know, you can live your life from a safe distance through the phone, because that's pretty safe. And kind of, you know, test people out and pray for the best.

Or you can actually just like walk the streets and spend some time with people. It's just, uh, it's a We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I was recently speaking with somebody who offered the invitation to find wonder, to find amazement,

in every moment of every day by simply looking for it you know the idea that we think we have to go get on a plane do something bold you know like go see the northern lights or do this crazy and i'm sure that's amazing it's a beautiful thing to do right but at the same time like what if that same feeling was accessible every moment of every day. And all you had to do is look for it. It's an interesting experiment to sort of run. Like, can you actually make part of your work to just persistently look for it?

It's interesting because I feel like babies get it. Yeah. Because everything is so new. Right. You know, you, you know, give them a raspberry and they're just like, you know, so thrilled. It's like. I gotta admit, I'm pretty thrilled with the raspberry also.

Do you know what I mean? It's just the simple stuff. I love that. I love, you know, babies rock because they, they don't know. Well, I think they know everything without having knowledge. You know, I think that them being present in the moment and letting go right away, unless it's something just so traumatic. I mean, anyway, we'll go there.

But when you see kids, you know, they just like they just like go easier than we do. We the more we the more we were taught, the more we try to hold on to things. And babies kind of remind me that it's OK to be in the moment and let go. Yeah. You know, it's like where we spend all of our lives trying to get back to the place we started. Exactly. Because there's that window. I can't remember what the age is, it's like four

or five or something like that, where you start to become self-aware. And as soon as that happens, you also start to be concerned about how you're being perceived by others and how you're showing up and whether you're going to be accepted or not. And like, that's the moment where we start to change who we are, you know, to, to find that sense of, of belonging. And, you know, it's not, it's not always a good thing. What's your earliest baby memory? Do you have one? You know, it's so funny you ask that. I don't have a baby memory, but I have this weird, I think it's a memory. I was literally just thinking about this yesterday. It's so funny you asked that. So I spent the first couple of years of my life up in like the 120s on

the West side of New York City. And my dad was going to grad school and we were like 126th Street or something like that, right by Riverside Drive. And I had this, living in a brownstone, I had this really strange flashback type memory where my sort of like best little mini toddler friend had wandered out into the street and sat down and a truck came down the street, straight over him. And he was completely fine. And like the parents were freaking out and running around and he was just sitting there like, okay, so what just happened? You know, just completely went, you know, completely.

Literally over his head. Yeah, he's so little. And to this day, I don't remember. I don't know if that's a legit memory. Like I remember clear as day and I don't remember. I don't know if that's a legit memory. Like I remember it clear as day. And I don't think I made it up because it stayed with me, you know, like in my 50s now. And it's so funny that you ask. For some reason, that literally dropped into my awareness yesterday because I was trying to think back.

Like what are my earliest memories? Yeah, yeah. Are your parents still with us? Yeah, yeah, fortunately. Wow. Can you ask? Are you able to ask them. Yeah. Yeah. Are your parents still with us? Yeah. Yeah. Fortunately. Wow. Can you ask, are you able to ask them? I am. Yeah. I haven't gone back yet, but I actually, I will. And I have some other really weird memories from that sort of like really short season of my very early days. I think it'll actually freak them out in a good way. Do you know what I mean? It'll'll be like because a lot of people

don't think oh they're baby they're not gonna remember that right you know but that you know according to the energy of something right because we don't really understand language but we kind of remember the feeling and the melodies of things and energies of things is what I believe. And then as we get older, we put meaning and words to that. But the photographs, those emotional photographs that just don't go away, that you take with you to the next place, you know? Yeah. It's like, they don't, to me, they're real. And I have just so many photographs.

Yeah, I would imagine. Well, it seems like you have lived a viscous life. Yeah. Deeply syrupy on every level. Let's jump into that a bit more too. So you end up, you were in high school for uh music and performing arts back then when you went it wasn't it hadn't yet merged with um performing arts right no it's really the famous la guardia yeah it was on 135th street up the hill instead of the west

side in the 60s whatever it is yeah um Walking up that hill every day was almost symbolic. Did you think at that point that your jam was going to be music or performing? I knew I wanted to sing was all I think I knew. And I just wanted to be a sponge. I just wanted to have as many experiences as I could have. And I felt like the teachers were just so amazing. They would give me keys to understand the the theory, the beauty, the textures and emotions, how to sing well with others and choirs. And also we would do these classes where I would sing

like Italian and French and German arias or whatever. And it was just beautiful to witness everyone else in their walk, in their fear of like, oh, my God, I've got to get in front of the class and sing and blah, blah, blah. But, you know, we were all kind of like freaked out, you know. There was things that you felt that you could do well, and there were other things that were like huge question mark and that you're just trying to be a sponge,

trying to fill in those little holes in the sponge, you know. Yeah. And this was in the, so this would have been the sort of like mid-70s. Yeah. Which was such an interesting time in music too, right? And that's kind of like the golden years of R&B to a certain extent. But you, it sounds like you were drawn to opera. I mean, I know you spent some time in Queens College after that studying

opera. Curious what was, what did opera give you that you were looking for? Hmm. I'm not even sure. I kind of felt like, in a weird way as I look back on it now, the teacher that I met at Queens College, his name is Dr. Robert White. And he is a beautiful soul. He would give me dreams. He would give me hope. He would give me lessons that I couldn't afford. He gave me things to listen to. And he gave me a foundation vocally, like just how to keep my voice healthy. And that, I just always carried that with me everywhere I went. I wasn't really, I would see other teachers and they were groovy, but there was something about that first connection of just singing and understanding the breath and the diaphragmic support, blah, blah, blah, blah. Just all this great stuff.

Come to find out, because back then I couldn't afford to go to Juilliard. So I went to Queens College and they were amazing. But I always kind of wondered what it would be like to have the Juilliard experience, right? Come to find out, I forget where I saw Dr. White, but he now teaches at Juilliard. So it's just kind of funny. So you kind of got it. Right.

But on your own terms. Right. Yeah. Right. So it's just funny how life is sometimes when you just relax into some of those concrete you know, some of those concrete thoughts that you have in your head, you know. There was something about having that stability that classical music gave me. It gave me, because my mind would kind of be all over the place.

I'd listen to all kinds of music and whatever was around me. And I was just like, oh, this is kind of cool. You know, I would listen to Aretha Franklin. There's a song called Ain't No Way. And in the background, I didn't know this at the time, is Sissy Houston's voice and the way that it sort of played in the air and the feeling that I got when I heard it or when I was singing in church and you'd hear the high soprano kind of singing, doing her thing. The colors of classical music was already familiar to me because it was already in the rhythm and blues

music I was listening to. Or if I'm listening to, there was this red album from West Side Story that we used to listen to as a kid. And so you would hear different timbres and different colors and different, you get different visions of the messages that were coming through the music. And so I have all these different pictures in my mind and colors in my mind. So by the time I got to music and art, I was just like, this is amazing. Wow, an orchestra, ooh, a jazz band. Oh my God. It's a choir. It's just the vibrations of sound. And so, you know, having the gift of going to Queens College and meeting Dr. White was really wonderful for me. who offers so much, who eventually ends up at this super esteemed institution in New York, but which is also known as a pretty fierce and hyper-competitive pressure cooker.

So it's interesting to have access to being mentored by somebody who was at a level where they could eventually teach there, but without that same context of everybody fighting and scrapping to be the best so you can get chosen to go to this next place. It was probably a blessing and I didn't realize it at the time. When I look back, I just go to my, I take a deep breath and I go, dodge that bullet. I mean, that bullet is good for some people though. You know what I mean? Some people, you know, I'm not mad. I think it's all about how you're wired. Exactly.

I think it would have, for me, I think it would have been too intense. I don't think I would have survived that very well. So meanwhile, while you're at Queens, I guess it was around then that you start gigging around the city. Yeah. What was that like? You know, you would meet different people. Somehow or another, I forget how, I think it was hanging out in clubs and talking to friends. And all of a sudden you start to meet your tribe, right?

Your lifelong tribe. And so you get together and you do these gigs. And I might get paid $30 for five sets a night at some corner bar. Folks are drunk and crazy. And you're just trying to be heard. You're just trying to sing your song and get home in one piece. It was interesting. It was interesting. It was good. I loved singing background.

And so when I got a chance to sing some lead, it always felt uncomfortable because I was so used to singing background for people. I loved laying in the harmonies and just being the bed for just beautiful harmony. So having to sing lead was a little traumatic for me, but at the same time it was kind of fun too. It was a challenge. And so as I grew and got more experience, people would go, hey, you want to do some session work? And I'd be like yeah you know because

back then it was more about i think for me i couldn't believe someone was actually paying me to do something that i loved i was just like sure and then you kind of realize that every Every human, whether you sing or not, is a unique soul, a unique fingerprint. And that people are not necessarily booking your time because you're not unique. They're booking your time because there's something about you that makes them want to go, that's the energy I need for this. In the early days, and I'm even curious now, were you cool with that? Cool with? With people looking at you and saying, you're different. In a good way.

But I'm curious how that landed with you. I think. The look on your face just says so much. It's like, ah. I think I always felt different anyway. Yeah. You know, it was difficult for me, you know, to make friends when I was young. I always felt like an outsider.

So, um, yeah. I think I was comfortable with being with the music. The music didn't judge me. The music didn't beat me up. The music kind of healed me. And so music was my friend. Everything else I felt like, not sure about this, not sure about that. What's the intention with this? What are you really saying to me? You know, I just couldn't trust anything around me.

I didn't feel, yeah, I didn't feel safe. So, yeah, I felt safe with the music. Music was just like, now that I understand. Yeah. It sounds like Dr. White was really one of the first big mentors for you, but then not too long after, a couple years in, you meet Luther Vandross. Oh my gosh. It sounds like he was sort of like the next big mentor.

How does that come to happen? I was doing another show. It was a doo-wop thing. I started with the Crystals and I worked with the Marvelettes. But it wasn't the Marvelettes proper. The manager, I think his name was Larry Marshak. I'm hoping he's still around. But he owned the rights to the name of the Marvelettes.

I don't know how that worked out. But there were a couple of different Marvelettes and nobody was an original member in the group that I was in. I was like, what was it, the dead boy, Menudo? Where they just kept rotating new kids in when you hit a certain note. Okay. Yeah, it was crazy. And so the choreographer for the Marvelettes asked me to audition for Luther. In the interim, I was doing Change.

I knew about Change, which was a group that Luther recorded, a song called The Glow of Love, and just a lot of big hits. So I was doing between The Marvelettes and Change. This guy asked me to audition, and so I did. And that audition changed my life. I walked into the room, the rehearsal room,

and there was Alpha Anderson, who was famous for singing with Chic and with Luther. There was Brenda White King, amazing alto, gorgeous voice, sang with Luther for many years. And another gentleman named Philip Blue, who sang tenor at the time. And Luther is sitting at the piano, and you're snacking on something. And I come in and it's summertime. I remember it was very hot and I just didn't have a clue, but I called myself putting on what I thought was my best foot forward outfit, which was a leather skirt in July or June sometime, which was insane.

And this like polyester blue top, I can still see it. I had my hair braided. I didn't know anything really about makeup and all that kind of stuff. So I just came in natural. And he just asked me to sing a bunch of different things. And I felt like it was back in music and art, the way that he expressed himself and come to find out later that he was an English teacher, and I didn't know that, or substitute teacher. And so it made sense. Some of the questions he was asking me, what he was asking me to do, it just, I connected exactly with what he was saying and his passion about it. He was not kidding around. You know, it was real. It was like he wanted to see how well I listened, how well I understood and how well I executed. And before he even, I was the first person he saw. And he says, you know,

don't mention it to any of the girls. I still need to see the rest of the ladies. He says, but if you can dance, you got this gig. He was good. You know, I was like, really? I was just so excited. And then I got really freaked out because I knew I wasn't a really strong dancer. But luckily I knew the choreographer and he gave me a simple, what they call step touch, you know, where you kind of do inside, decide something simple that wasn't going to like freak me out. And so Luther was okay with that. And I was willing to work hard at, you know, making my two left feet right. So yeah, it was beautiful. And just the way that he cared about every detail, I felt like, like, let's say say for example, the lights in the ceiling, like watching him put together a show, the music, the record, the gel colors for different moods in the music, positioning, the connection of movement and what he was trying to convey to the audience. Every little detail, every bead on a gown, everything was really important to him.

And so the first time I got my makeup done by Rene DiChamiso, I was told to turn away from the mirror. And so by the time he was done patting and fluffing and smelling glue and God knows what else, fixing my hair and spraying me down like a bed bug. And then Luther came in and saw my face and he looked really pleased. And then I turned around and I look in the mirror and I was like, oh my God, who is that? You know, I felt like I was being introduced to an alter ego, you know, a person that I knew was me, but I didn't feel worthy to be. I'd never seen myself done up like that. And so it took me some breaths to kind of make the connection. Like, okay, it's okay to have my back straight

and my chin up high and, you know, shoulders back and feel good about this presentation that Luther is gifting the audience and making the connection with the vision of his music. So I think a lot of that also made me feel a bit better about myself um because i knew at the end of the night i could wash off my face and know who's behind that but still have that feeling of ah it's okay to to stand up straight and have your shoulders back and have your head held high

you know it was uh that's beautiful it's so interesting that you use the phrase alter ego um which i translate as it wasn't someone different this was a being that's always been inside of you that for some reason in this moment you it's given permission to take the lead, to step into, which is that when you're on stage, there is a ferociousness, like a loving hearted, big energy, but there is a fierceness. There is a, like, I am out here world to you, which is amazing and beautiful and powerful. And sitting here in the studio with you,

there is still this amazingness and beauty and power and grace, but the energy is profoundly different. And I was always curious. I was like, is there sort of, because I've known so many people that sort of literally say they step into almost like another identity when they step out in front of other people, whether it's in business, whether it's performing arts, whatever it may be.

And it's not like it's, they're not faking it. They're just given access to a different part of themselves. And as soon as it's not like they're not faking it. They're just given access to a different part of themselves. And as soon as it's done, they sort of like step back out into the other part. Yeah, it's interesting because I kind of feel like we are sometimes made to feel that we're supposed to mold into one absolute space. And I feel that we're so many things. I think we've been so many things. I think we've lived through and survived so many things.

And I think it's cool to be kind of more than one yin and yang of yourself. I think that feels joyous and full and it keeps us in that baby mode, you know, where everything is really new. You know, where everything is really new, you know, where everything is like possible, where, you know, I imagine, I can go back to when I was little and I remember my brother being brought in from the hospital. So I had to be probably close to two, had to be about two years old. And I remember the feeling of like, oh, wow, who's that? And I remember my mom and dad saying, that's your little brother, that's your little brother. And the feeling of like being aware of another new life, even being that young, I was just like, wow, can I hold him? Can I touch him?

They're like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I don't remember if I said the words. I just remember going to my brother and them, you know, kind of shooing me away. And the feeling that I felt that I can put words to now that I didn't have then was like, you said he was mine. You said he was my brother. You know, he's mine. Why can't I touch him? Why can't I hold him? He's like, that's my new friend. I need to understand this new little being. And the peace, I remembered I could look at his little peaceful face. I was just like, wow. You feel like you're looking at a whole new universe. And I think we have that inside ourselves all the time and we don't access it.

Yeah. Complex beings, are we? If you're at a point in life when you're ready to lead with purpose, we can get you there. The University of Victoria's MBA in Sustainable Innovation is not like other MBA programs. It's for true changemakers who want to think differently and solve the world's most pressing challenges. From healthcare and the environment to energy, government, and technology. It's your path to meaningful leadership in all sectors. For details, visit uvic.ca slash future MBA. That's uvic.ca slash future MBA.

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Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. You end up touring with Luther for more than 20 years, I guess, right? Until he passed in 2005. 2005, yeah.

So that started in the mid-80s-ish, early 80s, right? Until he passed in 2005. 2005, yeah. So that started in the mid 80s-ish, early 80s, right? Yeah. And shortly after that, I guess a couple of years into that, you also get another call. Yeah. So Tony King, who was a publicist for the Stones, came to a Luther Vandross concert. And so at that time, I didn't really know anything about the Stones other than Harlem Shuffle and Miss You that was played on the R&B stations.

And a couple of things probably on the AM stations, but I wasn't really like a stoner, you know. I just liked everything. And so I didn't realize that the Stones had taken some time off. And so Mick was looking to do these solo dates. So Tony King had suggested me come down and audition for Mick. I auditioned for Mick. I get the job. Then the Stones get back together.

And I guess the whole process of having to audition again, another human being or a bunch of people, was just like a lot with everything else that they had to do. Getting ready, getting back together as a band for the tour and the whole production, the whole universe that they have to deal with. And so I go to London. That's where I met Keith and Ronnie. Yeah, I go to London to sing on the Steel Wheels album.

And I get to meet Ronnie and Keith. And I guess they needed to feel me and see if I was the right person to stay, to work for the band. And I just remembered how sweet they were. And I remember Keith, I get up to, you know, I walk over to him and he gets up out the chair and he's like, Hey, that gruffiness. So, so, so, so, so. And it was more this wash of beautiful, imaginary pirate energy, but he's not going to kill you kind of feeling. You know what I mean? He was just like, argh, you know, that argh thing.

And I'm standing next to Bernard Fowler. And we've had a conversation, but I didn't really understand what Keith was saying. And I go to Bernard, and I was like, what did he just say? And it was, he was just like, basically, you feel a lot of what he says sometimes. The way that he speaks is kind of like a melody and an energy and a groove. I didn't make out every single word because I was still getting used to the way he communicated. It's like now I totally understand everything he says, but it seems natural to me now. Because I'm looking at his eyes, I and looking at the way that he moves.

I'm looking at, you know, just how he communicates. It's just so musical to me. I don't even know how I got down that road, but we were talking about. Yeah, no, just how you began with them. I mean, so that leads you to join them on stage. Oh, God. I guess to this day still? Or really not since you've started to like 2013-ish or 2012-ish, right?

So again, but a couple decades long. Yeah. So you're kind of moving back and forth during this window of time between Torn with Luther luther torn with the stones um being in stadiums and arenas of all sizes and um in the middle of this i guess in early 90s 90 91 there's an interesting moment where you're like, okay, so I'm singing backup with one of the most iconic voices ever and with one of the most iconic bands ever. And doing the thing that you love more than anything else. And then there's this opportunity for you to potentially be the lead in a really big way.

You get a record deal, you record, and then you release a song that kind of explodes and ends up, I think it was like number one on the charts, and then you get the Grammy. How are you experiencing that moment of stepping into the lead spot? It's weird because just as you're asking me that, I don't know if I've ever had this thought before,

but I guess I look up to Luther. I look up to the people I get to work for in the Stones and make in all of them. They all have this amazing energy together as a band, very different personalities. But just, you know, Charlie and just all of them are just so beautiful together. And so I, when I wash off my face

and that makeup goes down the drain, it's just me. And that person didn't feel worthy of feeling like i can even approach um can i put this i feel like they had a plan they knew exactly what they wanted to do i didn't have one i didn't have one. I didn't have one. They meaning the record company? Oh, I'm sorry. They, like, Luther knew very well what his purpose was.

The Stones, you know, had the same. You know, they knew who they were were i was still learning who i was and i wasn't sure my old purpose was to serve right and so it was like i just want to do a great job i just want to be supportive and i want to do a great job. And that is important, but I think if you're going to present yourself, it's kind of helpful to have some sense of purpose. And I couldn't quite figure out back then what that was. So it shifted to I need to make the record company happy, right? Fast forward to now, I kind of feel like I kind of had the purpose all along and I didn't know it. to breathe life into space through the vibration of sound, through the imagery of what a melody does,

with the words of a song, how it makes people connect, how it conjures visuals for each person. And it's probably a lot more simple than what I was trying to make it in my head back then. I just need to connect. Yeah. I mean, it's so interesting there. You had this opportunity to step out. You had a big success out of the gate.

And then there's no second out, which I think a lot of people were really surprised about. But now it's been a couple of decades. With the benefit of hindsight and just hearing how you just shared what your deeper sense of purpose is built around, it actually makes perfect sense. It's almost like at the time I would imagine it was very angsty trying to figure out what's happening here, control issues. And also, am I supposed to be this person? Is it expected? Am I not living up to my quote potential if I don't step out and be that lead person? And in hindsight, it feels like, and I would imagine that moment was really angsty for you, but in hindsight, it feels like your bigger purpose has really just,

it was what you said in the beginning of our conversation. It's about the harmony for you. It's a being a part of something and having the opportunity to step up every day and express this essential part of yourself in a way that makes you feel good and potentially uplift others at the same time. And whether that's in the role of being on stage

with other people or being in the front, maybe that didn't matter as much as other people maybe thought it should to you. So interesting you're saying that because as you're speaking, I'm seeing all these other images come to me. It's like, you know, when my record came out, it was very, you had to have a video. It was really important to have a video. Right. That was the big days of MTV, where they actually showed videos. Yeah.

And it was an extension and a beautiful tool, but it gave me a lot of anxiety. You know, I was worried about, you know, am I too fat? Am I not this enough? Am I not that enough? Am I too this? Am I too that? I was just like, ah!

You know, being under the microscope was an awful feeling for me. I felt like a little teeny boat in this really crazy ocean and all these other big boats are passing me by and sucking me under. You know, it just felt really, it was difficult for me. And so I kind of feel now that I'm older and I'm at the point where what's inside of me and who I am is so much more important than my physical, what would be considered physical flaws. I feel so much freer and so much more relaxed and so much more healed than when I was, when I was younger and considered cute and, you know, adorable and sexy and all that stuff.

Kind of, you know, people, sometimes fans, and they're really sweet, they don't mean any harm when they do this, but they'll send me really old pictures of like, you know, when I was 20 or 30 or, you know, doing some crazy thing with Mick on stage or whatever. And it's like, and not that I'm mad at any of that, you know, that was the alter ego and I was good with that. You know what I mean? Because on the inside, I knew who I was, you know, there was the performance, you know, the, you get to, you get to try on these cool, crazy shoes and, and, and it's, it's kind of exciting, you know? So I don't, I don't, it's not that I don't love those moments, but some people only look at those moments. That's all they can see. And just in life, I look back at relationships that I've had where I felt good physically and you're with your man and you're appreciating each other physically and you felt powerful and you felt like, okay, I feel sexy and powerful and in control.

And now when you go back to those situations let's say with the same person and you revisit that and you realize nobody's the same anymore you know it's like what I love about you is what I loved about you in the beginning you know all this other stuff is just form. It's just a photograph of where we're at in time. But the essence of who you are, it's just like, that's what I fell in love with. That, that to me stands the test of time. It's like, you know, I don't care if you have a belly. I don't care if you're going bald. I don't care, you know, if you're, you're sick. I don't care if you're sick. I don't care. It's about really loving the essence of the human being inside and grateful to love them in any way that feels comfortable in the present moment.

As you're speaking, I'm wondering if you're speaking as much about yourself as others. Coming to that place in the context of like, how do I feel about me? Like over this long window of time. Yeah. I think a bit of both. I think as time goes on, I just want to be healthy in every way that I can muster. I just want to live life and breathe and going, I've got another day. You know?

Yeah. As you're touring, so you move back into continuing to tour. It's really between Luther and then the Stones until the early 2010s, 11s, 12s. And then this interesting moment happens, right? This movie drops, documentary, 20 Feet from Stardom, which features you and a group of other women who had been backup singers for many of the greatest voices, the greatest bands of the last three, four,

or five decades in some cases, whose voices we've all been singing as a population for years, and not even realizing that the band we thought we loved, the lead singer's voices are like, what we were really keying in on was your voice and Darlene Love and all of these amazing other women. And that those were really as much, if not more, the voices of our generations and our stories and our lives. And I'm curious when that movie comes out, because it makes a big splash, ends up winning an Oscar. And I guess you end up winning an Oscar also to a certain extent. It's connected.

Yeah. So when that comes out, I'm curious at the moment that you are in, in your life, in your career, how does that land with you? You know, after turning with the stones for so many years and being a woman in my 50s at that point, I just turned 60 last year. So during this episode, I'm in my 50s. I'm getting older. I'm getting fatter. I'm getting tired.

I'm getting, you know, afraid of what's in my future. I don't know what's going to happen to me. I didn't think things out very well. And so you're constantly always living your life like, when's the next show? When's the next show? When's the next gig? And it's a weird place to be. you're constantly always living your life like, when's the next show? When's the next show? When's the next gig? When's the next thing? And it's a weird place to be.

So, you know, that's always sort of been in the background, right? Let's say from my late 40s going through my 50s, it's always kind of been my fear. You know, because when you work for the Stones, you get paid for your work. After that, after the tour is over, then you're back to trying to figure out how am I going to work? You know, you've been on the road, you know, you've bought your friends tickets and, you know, you're trying to make connections, you're trying to figure stuff out, you're trying to, it's just crazy. And so you have to kind of reestablish yourself when you get back. And so that back and forth and back and forth and trying to it's just crazy um and so you have to kind of re-establish yourself when you get back and so that back and forth and back and forth and trying to figure stuff out um you know

the music business changed so much so you would come back and maybe this session work and now the business has changed so I'm kind of flipped out you know, and I'm home and I get a call level than, let's say, a feature film. It's documenting something. And so usually you don't get paid for it. You don't think about it as a source of income. It's just something to document is what I think about. So I was like, oh, that's really sweet that he wants to do that. And I didn't know anything about Gil and his history. I just know that when I met him, I felt the sense of

just how beautiful he was, how warm, how intelligent, how loyal. He's got two beautiful kids and a wife. And just the way he was speaking to me, it was very like a child, but with a lot of life experience. And he had to be, I don't know, I guess in his 60s at that time. And he says, well, you know, I saw you with Joe Laurie and Lali Bialy and backing up Sting for this If On A Winter's Night project. And he says, I just couldn't stop watching you guys. He says, I've been thinking about doing this film and I want to ask you some questions. I was like, cool. He says, you know, I'm thinking, should it be all women? Should it be guys and girls?

I said, well, I would do both, but it's your dime, you know. It's like, I think everyone is really important. So we keep meeting, we keep talking. Eventually he emails me and says he found the director, Morgan Neville. And so I was just like, oh, that's really good. We would just kind of go back and forth, and he would kind of throw little ideas and things he would share. And then I get to meet Morgan, and he's just the sweetest.

He kind of looks up at you from behind his glasses, and you feel like, okay, I'm coming in. I'm coming into your soul. I'm going to try and figure you out. Is that okay? We good? Good? You know?

It's just so lovely. But he's so polite about it. And so we do the film, and I'm like, I don't know how long it took, but I would just come in for these sessions with Morgan. And the next thing I know, I'm still working, I was on the road with the Stones, sessions with with morgan and the next thing i know you know i'm still working trying to you know i was on the road the stones and and uh and then they say oh it's it's finished can you you know come to sundance and i was sick as a dog i went to sundance and i was afraid of what i was going

to see because i hadn't seen any footage i hadn't seen anything and i'm just like i'm gonna probably come off looking like a nut because it was also during the time that my friend was transitioning through her, Tawana was transitioning through her cancer. So, you know, I would get up in the morning and sometimes I had nothing left in me. I would go to the hospital, I'd spend the night, I'd run to rehearsals, whatever. So I felt wrung out. I didn't have the energy to, I didn't have the desire to look in a mirror and go, gee, I think I'm just going to try and put on some makeup and cover the pain that I'm going through right now. I was just like, this is what it is. I'm working with people that I love. They'll get it, you know.

So, you know, whenever the camera crew would come in, I was just like, you know what, this is real. This is what it is. I don't want to put makeup over what it is, you know, whenever the camera crew would come in, I was just like, you know what? This is real. This is what it is. I don't want to put makeup over what it is, you know. So I do the film. I go to Sundance and Morgan's like, I was like, should I see it beforehand? He's like, no, I found in my experience, it's better for you to just see it like the audience sees it. He says, I'll hold your hand through it. I was like, okay.

And he literally did. I sat there. He sat right next to me. I'm looking at the film and I'm like, all of a sudden I'm going into the stories, not just my own, but everyone else's. There's so much I did not know. And the way that he put it together. And I almost wish that it could have been more than one film

because there was just so much information. I mean, I would love to see one done on male vocals, you know, male vocalists, on musicians, on, you know. There's so much information that we don't know and it's just so beautiful to be able to see it in such an honest way yeah i felt uh lucky to be a part of that project and so when uh the oscars came around i was on tour with the stones in japan and i was trying my best to figure out a way to get from Japan to do the Oscars. But it just went against, you know, when I looked at it, and I was like, I can't miss a show.

I can't do it. You know, just going back to what I felt was right. You know, the Stone story is a part of of my life as well you know just a teeny part and part of that was also in the film and I just it didn't feel right to disappear you know and and possibly not make one of their shows because that's what I'm there for. So I watched the Oscars at some TV studio in Japan while it was happening. And I sat and I cried and I watched Darlene Love do the acceptance speech. And it was just so beautiful. It happened the way it was supposed to.

You know, I think, you know, her sound, when I think about the crystals and all that stuff, I was listening to you know i think uh you know her sound when i think about the crystals and all that stuff i was listening to her you know our lives all intertwined mary clayton i was listening to her you know our lives intertwined and i think you know even watching judith my life intertwines in the sense of the uncertainty of trying to figuring yourself out. And now she's at such a beautiful place in her life. She's older. She's more seasoned as a woman. She's always been talented.

And she's doing really well. So yeah, it was a blessing and it was strange you know feeling like okay so you're part of this documentary and that's really cool with all these other great women and you're touring with the stones so now i'm getting all these phone calls about doing shows right so all of a sudden it's like this becomes a catalyst for something entirely new yeah it, it was crazy. And so it kind of, luckily I was working with Linda Goldstein, who manages Bobby McFerrin, and I begged her to please help me because I have no clue what to do. I've never had to book my own dates and, you know, get a booking agent and what about band and hire musicians to figure out songs?

What songs? I don't have any songs. Oh, my God. What are we going to do? And so she, you know, she talked me off the ledge and took me on. And I'm just so grateful to her because she dreams like a child. You know, I don't think Don't Worry, Be Happy would have been shared with the world if it had not been with the way that she looks at life and sees who Bobby McFerrin is. You know, she's just, she's playful and she thinks differently.

And she also gets, she knows so much shit. She knows so much shit. She knows so much stuff. And it's just like some of the stuff she comes up with, I'm just like, how do you even know all this stuff? But she's like one of those geeky girls. She loves information. She gets off on information and things that matter. And so I love her artsy sensibilities. And it really works for me. I mean, it may, you know, it's every manager's style is so different and focus is so different, but she resonates for me.

And that really launches a new chapter. I mean, you've been out since I guess 2014 2013 2014 right yeah with with your own band your own crew and and you are very much front and center i feel more comfortable i'm so grateful to grand baton which is um jc maillard who's a musical director he's the one i got with first and grand baton is really his concept. He's done records as Grand Baton. It's kind of like his groove and his thing. So it was a way for him to get more exposure with the name

and for me to have a band that I could count on. And so it's JC and Terry Arpino, who's the drummer. He and JC have known each other a really long time, which I love. They speak each other's musical language. And then Aiden Carroll, who plays bass out of Oklahoma, was living in Brooklyn. And so it's been the four of us for some years now. And so I feel really grateful that I've had them to walk this walk and kind of learn myself. They all bring something special to the table. They bring their hearts, first of all. And they also bring me a sense of security,

you know, each of them in a different way. And I love the way that they listen. That to me is the most magical thing. And I love their fearlessness. It kind of makes me feel braver, you know. So it's been pretty amazing. Yeah. So as we come full circle, sitting here in this container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Breathe in without feeling like I'm choking or without feeling a heaviness.

And to release every inch of the breath with a purpose. Thank you. Thank you. You're an angel. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes.

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We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun On January 24th Tell me how to fly this thing Mark Wahlberg You know what the difference Between me and you is?

You're gonna die Don't shoot him, we need him Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk