Good Life Project - The Story Behind Therapy for Black Girls | Dr. Joy Harden Bradford

Episode Date: July 11, 2019

Dr. Joy Harden Bradford (http://www.hellodrjoy.com/) is a licensed psychologist, speaker and the host of the wildly popular mental health podcast, Therapy for Black Girls (https://www.therapyforblackgirls.com/). Her work focuses on making mental health topics more relevant and accessible for Black women and she delights in using pop culture to illustrate psychological concepts. She has been featured in O, The Oprah Magazine, Forbes, Bustle, MTV, Huffington Post, Black Enterprise, Refinery29, Teen Vogue, and Essence. Dr. Joy lives in Atlanta, GA with her husband and two sons. In today's conversation, we explore her experiences growing up in a small town, her pursuit of learning, teaching and academic excellence, love of pop culture, and how her awareness of inequities in the way mental health services were offered led her to start her practice and launch Therapy for Black Girls.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today, Dr. Joy Harden-Bradford, is the host of the wildly popular podcast, Therapy for Black Girls. She grew up in a small town in the South. She describes it as being so small that they didn't have a stoplight, they had a flashing light and you would give directions by counting telephone poles to her dad's photography studio. And she had at the earliest age, a deep devotion and interest in learning and teaching, which evolved into a fascination with psychology and eventually mental health services. From there, as she was pursuing

her PhD, she also became really interested in how people from different backgrounds, different races experienced the world of mental health, mental health services, and psychology, and decided to make it her mission to expand access and to expand availability and really expand the conversation around mental health and psychology, which led to her clinical practice and then eventually her podcast. So excited to dive into this conversation today. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. You're going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him.

We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. You grew up, from what I know, in a pretty tiny town in Louisiana. Yes, very small town. So the name of the town is Payne Courtville, which means short of bread town. So apparently, years and years ago, there used to be a truck that delivered bread,

and it would always run out before it got to my little town. It literally translates to short of bread town. That's the French translation is Shorter Bread Town. That is awesome. Yeah, so thankfully we can just go to the grocery store now, but that's the literal translation. Yeah, so there is not even a like stoplight. It's only a caution light.

We used to, so my dad is a photographer and we had a home studio where he would take pictures. And so the way we would give directions is that it is 13 light poles down from the Catholic Church. So that is how people would find the studio. So very small. You got to like give directions in landmark. Got it. I mean, I have no sense of even what it would be like. I mean, to me, it feels like because I grew up just outside of New York City.

I've been in New York City for basically my entire adult life. Growing up in a place that small, what's it like? I mean, what do you love about something like that? What kind of starts to not be so cool? Yeah, so I think the thing that I love most and least is that you know everybody and everybody knows you. So I remember when I was younger, like it would used to, it would frustrate me. Like we could not even go to the store without my dad, like stopping to talk to somebody because everybody of course knows you and they want to catch up. Right. But I think the thing that I love about that is that everybody knows you. And so they want to know like how

school going and like what's going on. So there's constant like checking in with you, which made, I think we feel very like taken care of. and like people really were concerned about me and my family. Yeah. So with your dad being a photographer, it sounds like you were also exposed to the idea of living the artistic life pretty early on, too. I would not have connected that until this moment. Yeah. But I was, you know, spending time in the darkroom with him. Oh, no kidding. Yeah, because he would develop the black and white pictures at home. So I would spend time in the darkroom with him. But I didn't connect that as an artistic thing. Because it was always a side thing for him, too.

So he had a regular job working at an ammonia plant. And then photography would be like nights and weekends. Yeah. So did you have any bug for sort of like that side of things also? No. Not at all. I never felt like it was something I was really good at. Not that I even really played with like the camera or anything, but I loved to like model in front of the camera.

Right. So I love when he was like testing out the lights and stuff and I got a chance to play model, but never really wanted to do the like taking pictures myself. Yeah. So what was your thing as a kid? I was teaching. You were kid? I was teaching. You were teaching? I was teaching. All right, tell me more.

Yeah. So my parents could probably tell you about this time. I got in big trouble because they had bought me a new bed, a new bed set. And I like carved the ABCs in the headboard. Wait, how old were you? I don't know. I must've been like between five and seven, right? To know my alphabets.

But I was teaching my stuffed animals the alphabet and I carved it into the headboard. Yeah, so I always wanted to be a teacher. That was my thing when I was younger. Wow. So even at the earliest age, you kind of knew that there was something in you that said, I want to help people learn. Did that show up in other ways as you sort of moved along in the earlier parts of life? Probably in that I was like always like the older bossy cousin.

So my mom also has six sisters and four brothers, which means I grew up in a huge family. I have lots of first cousins. We would always spend a lot of time like at my grandmother's house after school. So I was always kind of like tutoring people and like, you know, giving out directions about what we're going to play after school and that kind of thing. So I think it showed up in those ways, too. Yeah. So siblings, brothers, sisters? Two younger brothers. Close.

Yeah. Yeah. So my mother, I actually just told this story. Somebody on one of my Facebook lives asked me, how did I get my name? And my mom named us all very simple names so that we wouldn't have trouble like spelling our names when we got to kindergarten. So my name is Joy and my brother's names are Todd and Chad. So there's no like real confusion about how, you know, how confused you can get in spelling your name. That's funny. We should have thought about that naming our daughter. Actually, our daughter's name is Jessie, but it's spelled the way that most boys would spell it, J-E-S-S-E.

So constantly she's like, there's no I, just E. Just Jessie. So you, I mean, it sounds like also you were a pretty devoted student. Mm-hmm, yes. How does that show up? I mean, was it, and I'm actually really curious when I sort of meet somebody who seems like was really academically driven in early age, I'm always curious what's underneath that. Like, what's the driver for that?

Yeah, I don't honestly know, but I always like had this competitive thing with myself. Like I always wanted to be the best. And I think it showed in academics because I had no like sports talent or, you know, artistic like we talked about. So I think academics felt like it was my thing. And I also had an older cousin. I guess he is about at least 10 years older than me who like went to school. And so when we went to college in New Orleans.

And so when he would come home for like the holidays, he would like share these stories about what was happening on campus and that kind of thing. So I think in some ways it was like connected to my older cousins who had already gone off to college and me feeling like, okay, that's the thing that I'm going to do. And I want to be really good at it. Yeah. You also, I know I've heard you share a story about, I guess it was coming to senior year in high school. You worked really hard to be the valedictorian. Yeah. And were called in for a disconcerting conversation. Yes. Yeah. So that work actually started before senior year because, of course, you know, to be valedictorian, like, you've got to get your grades in order, like, starting freshman year. Was that an aspiration?

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So I don't know if you heard this part of the story, but in Louisiana, and I don't know if they still have this, all of the valedictorians got to be on a commercial at the governor's house. And so they would, like, flash your picture in your high school. And I was like, I'm definitely going to be on that commercial. I did not know that part of the story. Yes. I still have the videotape if my brother didn't like record Ninja Turtles or something over it. So I definitely knew I wanted to be on the commercial. So I worked really hard, like starting ninth grade year, like to get the best grades possible because I need to be on that commercial. And so, yeah. so what happened is that it was

myself and then another white classmate who like were kind of neck and neck all throughout school, even, and I still was like just mainly competitive with myself because I was like, I just got to be better than I was last time. But she and I had very close GPAs. And so we were in an English class together and we were called or I was called into the English professor, well, not professor, English teacher at the time. He called me into his office after class one day and said, hey, you know, I know that you and her are kind of neck and neck with grades. And, you know, I've had conversations with her parents. And if she gets an A on the English final, then I will give her an A in the class and you guys will be tied for valedictorian.

So, of course, I was hurt. I was, you know, devastated because I felt like that was very unfair. You know, she had clearly not worked as hard as I had. And it felt like this was like an unfair advantage she was being given. But at the time, didn't really know like what to do with that. And so my memory of that is kind of foggy, like in terms of what happened afterwards. Like I'm sure I talked to my mom and dad, but I don't think we had like a meeting with the principal or anything like that.

Now it turns out she did not get an A on the final. So she did not end up being valedictorian. She was salutatorian. But still the fact that like that was on the table for her. And I think now like had the tables been turned would that same offer have been given to me? And I think now, like, had the tables been turned, would that same offer have been given to me? And I don't think so. Do you, I mean, in that moment, clearly, it happened a long time ago, but it stayed with you and stayed with you for a reason.

Do you feel like that changed you or that changed your lens on the world or on, tell me more about that. I think I just didn't know what to call it because all of the adults in our lives seemed like it was okay to do so. I think in some ways it felt like, oh, this is not a big deal, but something in me knew it was like an issue. So that had kind of just been a part of my history all along.

But I think now I can very clearly look at that as like the first time I was able to name like a white privilege kind of a thing that was happening there. Yeah. I mean, it's it, these conversations are really helpful for me because like I said, I grew up in a suburb of New York city. I've lived in New York city for basically my entire life where, um, and I think what's been happening in the country over the last couple of years is also just shining a light on so much of, so much unfairness, so much light on so much of so much unfairness so much privilege so much different treatment um but it's it's for me to even like

i have no exposure to a world where um in a small town there are separate events and separate gatherings and separate school sanctions or like proms well the thing was is that the white kids one would be the off-site one so it wasn't technically school sanctioned sort of like proms. Well, the thing was is that the white kids one would be the off-site one. So it wasn't technically school-sanctioned. It was like parent-sanctioned. Like they would get together and rent like a local community center. And that's like the white kids prom where that would be. But it was still accepted.

Like this is just the way it is. Yeah. Yeah. So when you head off to college, you went to Xavier, right? Mm-hmm. Xavier, New Orleans. Where were you studying there? Psychology.

So you knew from the earliest time then that that was your jam. Yeah. Why? What was it? So I had actually taken a psychology class. Like we had some kind of, I don't know what it would be called in school now, but it was like we would call in to like some number and like a teacher would be on the TV. So I don't know.

It was like some tele-remote kind of class in psychology, which I think was very advanced for where we are. Again, a very small country town. And so I loved it from then. Like it just was fascinating to me and I am really fascinated by human behavior. And so when I took psychology, I was like, oh, this is definitely my thing. So you were just in from the beginning. Was there a particular part of it that really drew you in? So I thought that I really wanted to teach psychology. Going back to the five and six year postcard. Yes, exactly. Carving the letters into that thing. I thought that I would want to teach. So when I went to Xavier, I was originally a psych major and an education minor. And I didn't quite know what I was going to do with it, but I felt like

it might have been teaching psychology. But then I took my first like practicum kind of education thing where I had to go to elementary school and like shadow a teacher. I was like, oh, no, this is not my jam. Although, of course, I would have been teaching psychology. It would not have been elementary school. But something about it just didn't feel like a fit for me. Like just the structure, I think of it, like just didn't feel like it was actually the best fit for me to be like in a classroom. Yeah. But the actual sort of like diving into who we are and why we do what we do was still the deep fascination. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And that even got more intense. And I think most psych majors will tell you like when you get into like your abnormal psychology classes and that kind of thing, you're trying to like diagnose yourself and everybody in your life. That even made it more intense for me. Right. It's like with each chapter, you're like, oh, I have a new thing. And these three friends are clearly like, you need to deal with this problem right now. Exactly. It's like med students. Right, right. So as you're going, as you're going through college, do you start to focus in on the idea then that you're looking at potentially a clinical practice or you want to go, like, how do things get clearer? Yeah, so we had internships and things so that you could kind of get exposed to different things. So I did one summer where I did a summer research program at Emory University in Atlanta, which is funny that I now live in Atlanta.

So I did the research thing and I was like, OK, this is cool, but I don't necessarily see myself doing this full time. But then one semester I did a clinical internship with someone at the YWCA, which had like a community counseling kind of thing. And so I was able to like actually sit in on some intake sessions and felt like, okay, this is definitely what I want to do. I want to do more of the practice side of psychology. Yeah. So as you're diving into that, you're learning more about this and developing a deep interest and passion and skill set around this thing. And at the same time, you've gone from this tiny little town in Louisiana to a pretty big substantial environment with a lot more people, a lot of different people. How does that experience,

and literally like on your way out of high school, you have this one experience where just front and center, the profound unfairness. How does your experience then in Xavier evolve? Like how does this larger, being in a larger population, studying something differently, being around a completely different group of people. How does your experience and your thought on race, on culture, on equality evolve while you're at Xavier? I think, so if you like know about like racial identity and like the formation of my racial identity, there is a stage in some of the models that talks about like being completely immersed in your own culture. And I feel like that's what Xavier did for me. So of course, Xavier is the only Black, historically Black and Catholic university, which makes it unique. But we were learning about things

that I had never been exposed to. Now, some of it I had been exposed to because my older cousin, who I talked about earlier, had also gone to Xavier. And so he would come home and tell me about like all of these things that we were learning in history that were completely false. And it was just so eye opening. And so when I got to Xavier, I learned even more about that. So it really gave me an appreciation for like African-American history and culture in and this experience I had with the valedictorian issue. So I think I had language, the language I have to now develop, like, and talk about some of those things came from Xavier. And then you go from there. So when you start to pursue, because eventually you go, you get your master's and your PhD. So, I mean, from what I know, the, when you look at the profession of psychology, you know, clinical practice, my recollection, I'm sure, you know the numbers a lot better than me, is that there's a healthy balance sort of between gender in terms of practitioners. But when you look at the representation of people of color, it's really, really, really, really small.

Right. So I'm assuming that that's also reflected in the advanced degree programs. Oh, absolutely. So you go from Xavier then into sort of like, you know, like pursuing a Ph.D. in a program, which I'm assuming, but you can tell me this is right. It's probably largely white. Yeah, it absolutely was. How does that pendulum swing then play into like your lens. Yeah. So I went from Xavier to Arkansas State. So it felt like I kind of like gradually ease myself and back into like a mainstream kind of thing out of being

out of this, you know, completely black almost experience. So I actually ended up at Arkansas State because I applied to clinical PhD programs right out of undergrad and didn't get accepted. And so I was like, oh, what am I going to do with my life now? That also felt like a turning point for me because I feel like, you know, the academic streak in me, that was the first time there had been any kind of disappointment. You know, so I'm, you know, that's such a big part of your identity, Elsa. Exactly. Exactly. So I was like, oh crap, what am I going to do now? And fortunately, someone who had graduated from Xavier before was the director of the Rehabilitation Counseling Program at Arkansas

State. And she had written a grant and needed students to come and like fulfill the grants. I was like, oh, okay, why not? Like it'll be paid for. I get a stipend. I don't know anything about Jonesboro, Arkansas, but hey, I could do it for a year. And it was an incredible experience and it was a very small program. So even though it was majority white, like it still felt very like comfortable and, you know, like we were having great discussions in class. And I felt, again, very taken care of, I think, a lot because the director of the program was a Xavier alum. So, you know, even though I was away from family, she always supported me. You know, my classmates and stuff were great. So it felt like a very comfortable experience. But then I leave there and go to the University of Georgia for my PhD experience and was completely shocked. I think I had been protected a lot from like the

politics that are associated with higher education and got completely slapped in the face with that at the University of Georgia. How so? I mean, what was what was your experience of this political change? Yeah. So it just felt like people were getting all these kinds of opportunities to like present on papers with professors or to attend like these national conferences. And it was like, how did y'all even find out about this? Like, is there a Lister somewhere that I'm not, you know, privy to? And it was clear that it was just because certain students had certain relationships with professors who usually were white. And they would like, you know, allow them to be like second or third author on a paper or go and present at a conference. And of course, that stuff is completely important, you know, especially if you want to like be a professor or be a researcher.

And it just felt like students of color did not have those same experiences. So I think those were some of the first times I realized like, OK, there's a lot of politics, a lot of unspoken rules that go on here that I really need to kind of be mindful of. Yeah. And at the same time, it sounds like you're developing an awareness of, I mean, not only the education and the skill set of clinical practice, but also the sort of like the cultural impact or the way that different cultures either reach out to or completely don't reach out to the field of psychology and therapy and the perception of it. So it's like you're experiencing this within your academic context, but also it sounds like you're looking at the world of psychology and therapy in general and saying

like things are not the same for everybody. And not just in the way the service is delivered, but in people's willingness or people's assumptions about what this is or isn't, their willingness to interact, to share with others. Yeah. I mean, you know, my dissertation was actually on Black Graduate Student Association. So that really felt like a saving grace for me was getting involved in the Black Grad Student Association on campus. And I figured other people are probably having these same kinds of experiences. So my research was around finding other students at predominantly

white institutions who were involved in Black Grad Student Associations and whether that helped to mediate their experiences of depression and anxiety, which I found it was actually accurate. The research actually supported that, but also gave me information about like how incredibly stressed Black grad students are at predominantly white institutions. I mean, grad school is like incredibly stressful and anxiety provoking for lots of people, I think. I don't think anybody kind of just walks through grad school. But I think especially for Black grad students at white campuses, it feels, you know, in some ways intolerable. And like you have all of these other stressors on top of

just trying to get the work done. So what are some of the other stressors and how does that actually show up in their experience? Yeah, so I think some of the politics are very surprising for people. Funding is very difficult. So we kind of touched on this a little bit, but, you know, it takes a lot of time to get a PhD, especially in a clinical practice kind of field, because you do undergrad, then likely you do a master's, then you do four years of a program. There's an internship, then there's usually like supervised hours even after you graduate. So you're never like really independently practicing for like maybe 10 plus years. You know, so you think about like people who are able to support that, like there's a particular privilege that comes with being able to take time from the actual workforce or students who are in school working and doing this, you know, at the same time, which

of course puts the stressor on your studies. So finances were often an issue. Also, like the relationships people would have with families. So kind of being like maybe you're the one who made it. And what does that mean for going back home? You know, so are you still able to have some of those relationships with people who, you know, knew you from your small town? And what did that look like? And I mean, tell me more about that part of it. Is it because then, so is what you're saying, does it potentially go back and you either are different, you're viewed differently, and it actually, it pushes you away from?

Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, a lot of that I think was mediated from my family because I had already had cousins who had pursued master's degrees. So I think a lot of that weight had been paid for me. But a lot of people, they are the first one in their family to get like a master's or a PhD. And so sometimes there's tension with, oh, you think you're better than everybody else or, you know, you were able to kind of get out. And so how do you still manage some of those situations with family who may not really understand what you're doing? The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. So you're, I mean, it's kind of interesting. You're in school, learning psychology, and your dissertation focuses on the stresses and the experience. Did you find that people of color reached out to,

for counseling, for help, were both proactively looking for it and open to it on the same level of other people, or was it a completely different experience? That wasn't actually a part of my dissertation, but after I graduated and started working in college counseling centers, that definitely was my experience, that the students of color and primarily Black students would not reach out for services at the same rates as other students would on campus. What do you feel is behind that? So there's, of course, a lot of stigma related to mental health, you know, in Black communities. So people not really understanding

like what it is. A lot of us grew up with this idea of what goes on in your house stays in your house. And so the idea of talking to a stranger about like very personal information is like completely unheard of. You just don't do it. And I think there's also, and there continues to be like this tension between therapy and religion and faith. So, you know, a lot of people feel like, okay, maybe you just don't have a strong enough relationship with God and that's why you're struggling with mental health. So go pray about it as opposed to like, okay, can I strengthen my faith relationship and also go and talk to a therapist? So historically, there has been some tension there that I think has kept Black people out of seeking therapy services.

So is it more like there's a pecking order of things that you go to to help out with? Like, first, you just don't talk about anything. Then you turn to either faith or whatever, it's really the tradition within your household or your community. And then I'm wondering, I guess, would it then be potentially even seen as a sign of having failed at the things that are supposed to work and even like weakness if you now have to go to a quote therapist or psychologist? Absolutely. Especially for Black women. I mean, there's this whole stereotype of like the strong Black woman, right? That nothing can penetrate you,

that you have everything together. You can manage your house and faith and all of those kinds of things. So if you have to reach out to somebody, then you have failed in your strong Black woman-ness. Yeah, were you, I mean, so you're seeing this as when you're actually afterwards on the counseling side. Did that surprise you at all?

I don't think I was surprised by it, but it was concerning to me because a lot of the places where I worked, I was also either the only Black psychologist or one of few. So it made me wonder, oh, did people know this before? Is anybody else paying attention to the fact that the Black students are not coming in at the same rates? And I had been incredibly supported, like on every campus that I went, like to go and do a group. And, you know, in the Multicultural Student Center or somewhere else, because students, in my experience, the black students felt more comfortable like meeting where they already were congregating.

Of course, they struggle with the same kinds of things that everybody else is struggling with on campus. But for these kinds of reasons, we're not necessarily going over to the counseling center. So, I mean, there's so many things I'm curious about. Part of it, I mean, it's interesting you shared like, okay, so yes, I think we're almost comfortable sort of like in the place that we feel comfortable. And especially if we're going to be vulnerable, we want to do it in a place that is safe, you know, and whatever the structure is, whatever the things that need to be. And sometimes that is literally the physical place that we feel safe. But also part of safety is the person who's leading this conversation or the person who we're relying on, the person who we are, quote, surrendering to and trusting.

Are they safe? Right. trusting, are they safe? And if then part of what you're sharing is most of the counselors at the center were white, how does that play into the feeling of safety and a feeling of willingness to actually seek help from somebody who is of a different race? Yeah. So I think for a lot of people, it felt very comfortable to have these conversations outside of the counseling center. Because, you know, like if you ran a group in the counseling center, like there was paperwork that needed to happen, like you were a part of the system, so to speak. But when we did groups outside, it was more like a support kind of discussion group. So there is no paperwork attached to it.

So I think in some ways people felt like it was not pathologizing. It felt like, okay, we can just get together with these people who are trained professionals and we can have these kinds of conversations that are important to us. Now, of course, I am also helping them to understand like what kinds of things happen when you come over to the counseling center. So I think having a face for it and realizing like, oh, these are not like weird people over in the counseling center. Like she's cool to talk to. She can probably, you know, help me kind of get adjusted to talking with someone else. I mean, because the thing is, even if all of like the Black students on campus wanted to see the Black therapists, there would not be enough of us to go around. So a part of, I think my job also is one, helping my non-Black colleagues to understand,

like, these are some of the concerns that students are facing. Are you doing your own work so that when they come here, they are not further traumatized by having a racist experience in therapy? And also explaining to the students like, yeah, I know it would be great maybe to talk with me. But one, I don't have experience in all of the things that you may be struggling with. And actually, one of my colleagues may be a better fit for you. So helping to kind of dispel some of those fears they have about talking with someone is also a part of like the outreach that was really important to me. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I guess you going there outside of the clinical setting first, it kind of normalizes it first.

It's like, I'm actually a regular person too. And we can have a good conversation, but it's just supportive. And it almost, it takes away the sort of like, well, this is quote official therapy. Exactly. Well, this is just like, this is kind of part of what it's about, but just a different setting. When you then go back to the counseling office and you have the conversation with your non-white colleagues, were they actually aware of the phenomenon that you had noticed? And then and were they open to the idea of reexamining the nature of the way that they were interacting with people? I would say for the most part, people were, you know, because I think it's a special kind of personality that is attracted to like college student mental health. Because it's different than any other kind of practice.

You know, it's like lots of people will talk about. So I feel like most people were very supportive and wanted to find ways, but hadn't before like Black women were on staff, hadn't been able to kind of get into the community because, you know, they were very close off to it, you know, like, who are these people and why do they want to come talk to us? But I think once there were more Black women on staff, then we were able to kind of create conversations that the campus really needed. So you say once there were more Black women on staff, how does that actually happen? So I think it really, I think it would be difficult for me to go somewhere where there were no other Black women on staff, because that would make me think either this town is not attractive for Black women, like it doesn't feel good to live here, or something

about like this culture doesn't make it feel like Black women want to be here. So I would definitely be asking lots of questions to any place I was interviewing that didn't have Black women on staff. But I think once you get one person there that can attest to like, okay, this feels like a comfortable place. I think you would like it here. You know, these are the kinds of things we can do on campus. Then it makes it easier for more people to go there. So I think a lot of it is in like the recruitment and like the targeting and making sure that people are applying so that you can kind of get them to come and visit campus. Yeah. Were you that first person anywhere that you had worked? I think I was at Georgia Southern, right? I think I was at Georgia

Southern. What was that like? What made you say yes, given the fact that sort of like you, you would be the first person? So that was my first job out of grad school. And my goal had always been to like be in Atlanta. And so this was like closer to Atlanta than where I was in. Where was I? I think I was in Wisconsin or somewhere before. So I was like, OK, I can I can do this. I was in Virginia. There's enough good stuff in place.

Right. Some of my really good friends were already in Atlanta. It was only like three hours away. So I was like, okay, I can do this and keep looking for something in Atlanta until something opens up. You also, you brought up the phrase, I'm probably not going to get it right, vocational rehabilitation or rehabilitation counseling. What is that? So it is related to helping people with disabilities get back into the workforce. So what kinds of accommodations and things need to be put in place so that they can do their jobs to the best of their ability. Interesting.

With that experience, I'm curious what you took from that. Yeah, so it came in incredibly helpful. So after I graduated from my program with the master's degree, I actually worked for the state of Wisconsin with their vocational rehabilitation counseling program or department. And so I learned so much and I had a lot of college students actually on my staff or on my caseload, like helping them get the accommodations they needed in place to do well in college. So it kind of came full circle because my last job before I started doing therapy for Black girls full time is that I was the director of the Counseling and Disability Services Center at Clark Atlanta University. So I was the person in charge of like making sure their accommodations were in place and

looking over records and those kinds of things on campus. So that information and the knowledge I had from that master's degree came in incredibly helpful. Yeah, and it's so interesting, too, because this is a different population who also very often is subject to tremendous stigma and to inequality and to exclusion. Right. And so it's sort of like it's an interesting experience for you to have in the early days of becoming like entering this profession on tests or, you know, needing to have more frequent breaks or more excused absences, like a lot of that came from mental health issues. And so it felt like it also a very early experience with like the kinds of

ways that people are impacted in their lives related to mental health. Right. What makes you go from there then to say, okay, I'm going to move out into clinical practice and I am going, but was not thinking that I would be here now. But like I said, even as early as internship, I went to the director and said, hey, this is the kind of clinical practice I'm interested in. How can I run a group for black women on campus? And so they would connect me with like the Office of Multicultural Students. So at Virginia Commonwealth, I'd ran the group with somebody who was not a therapist, but she was like the assistant director of multicultural services there. So we would stay late one afternoon and run a group for the black women on campus that was incredibly popular. And so then I left there and then started doing the same thing at the University of Georgia when I was on staff there. And then continued when I got to Clark Atlanta University, which is,

of course, another historically Black college and university. So it wasn't a need for like an actual group there, but the students still were very excited to like come and talk about like the kinds of things that had been concerning them. Right. So when you start Therapy for Black Girls, which is your sort of like brand now, one of the big challenges that I'm assuming you sort of address head on is this cultural association with what it means if you have to have therapy or go to counseling or be involved with a psychologist. And now you're kind of like doing your own thing. So it's sink or swim. You have to figure out how to survive. You're not under the umbrella of a big institution or something like that

where there's a captive group of people where you're in service of them. It's like you've got to build your own thing. Right. And it's hard enough for somebody else to start a practice on their own. You choose to serve a community of people who deeply need what you have to offer. And at the same time, it's not just about being of service to them. It's about, there's a whole educational burden of sort of like saying, okay, so let me show you why and how this is actually okay. So were you sort of consciously stepping into that when you made that decision to.

So even working in college counseling centers like the college student life lends itself to lots of flexibility. So lots of people who work in college counseling centers have part time practices. So I had always had a part time practice even as early as being at the University of Georgia. So when I moved to Atlanta, having my practice on the side was something that I was already doing. But it wasn't until, so the whole origin story for Therapy for Black Girls is that I heard, I watched the Black Girls Rock award show on BET. And just, it was such an incredible experience. And I thought, is there a way I could create something like this for Black women related to mental health?

And it feels like it has kind of in a lot of ways become that. So my whole goal was to like make it kind of cool. Like, how can I talk with people about these, you know, very like 10 syllable words and all of these diagnoses and stuff like that? How can I talk with people about this in a way that feels very relevant and accessible to them? Because you mentioned earlier, like, oh, the idea of having to go to therapy. But I also want therapy to be something people want to do, because I think it's a very unique experience to like go somewhere by yourself for an hour a week and just talk about yourself. I don't think we often get those kinds of things. And so I also wanted people to understand that therapy is not something that you want to just think about, like when it's a crisis

situation or if it's mandated, but how could you actually be improving your life by going to therapy for lots of different reasons? Yeah. And it's not even that it's, there's no shame associated with it, but actually it is effectively the way you're presenting it. It's a form of self-care. Yes also self-care is okay. Right. Right. And necessary. We only have one us. How do you feel about that phrase self-care? Because it's so much a part of the conversation right now. It's on Instagram, on like a million different posts. It's hashtag left and right. What's your take on just the phrase? Yeah, I feel like I need to find some history of how it has blown up in the way that it has. And of course, we were already talking

about self-care because it's my training, right? But it feels like somewhere in the last five years or so, it has become very much a buzzword. And so I'm glad that people are paying more attention to it. But I think sometimes people get confused about like what kinds of things need to be classified as self-care. So you see lots about like manicures and pedicures and massages and, you know, all those kinds of things. And all of that is great. But I don't want people to miss the like free things that self-care actually is, which is kind of just making sure that you're nourishing your mind, body and spirit so that you can kind of continue to be functional. Like all of those small decisions you could be making to really be taking good care of yourself.

Yeah, the little things. Right. I know. And also, I think the idea of it not being a luxury, however you define it, you know, is no, this is actually, this is the way that most of us just are okay every day. Right. You know, in a world that's increasingly fraught and challenging and anxiety provoking. Yes, yes.

It feels like it's much more needed for sure. Yeah. How has the last few years in this sort of like cultural moment changed what you do and changed what you're seeing when people come to you and ask you questions and look for advice? Yeah, there's a lot more anxiety.

And, you know, anxiety is already like a top two. You know, it kind of goes back and forth between anxiety and depression in terms of like what's diagnosed most. But there definitely is a lot more anxiety. Some that would meet like diagnoses criteria and some just kind of like, you know, normal everyday anxiety. I think that lots of people are walking around with. I think, you know, the rise of like social media and stuff has made it much more difficult to kind of avoid the things that were already happening in the world that maybe we just didn't know about. But as much as it also promotes awareness, it also makes it very difficult to kind of manage your mental health. Because at any moment, you can open Twitter and find like that there's been another shooting somewhere or, you know, some other tragedy. And so I think people are just like really being overexposed, I think, in a lot of ways

and are not kind of developing the skills to manage that in the ways that we need to. So what do you, I mean, when people come to you and they share this with you, like, I'm feeling overwhelmed, I'm anxious. I don't know what to do about it. I'm getting paralyzed. What are some of the things that you share with them to be okay? Yeah. So one, helping them to develop some limits around like their engagement with technology. You know, I know it's easy because we all have these phones in our pockets or, you know, they're readily accessible, but making sure they're putting things in place so that they are setting healthy boundaries with it. So that may mean kind of cutting it off, you know, several hours before bed or like turning notifications off, like all the things you need to do to protect your psyche from, you know, some of the traumas that you might see when you open up Facebook. So I think having conversations about that has become much more a part of my work than it was like five years ago. Yeah. So the way I became aware of you and your

work is actually your podcast. And I started listening. This is awesome. And you guys have to listen, by the way, Therapy for Black Girls podcast. I know the podcast is sort of focused on Black women as listeners. It feels to me as like a middle-aged white dude in New York listening, I'm like taking notes listening to you. But on two levels, like one is you could just get great wisdom for anybody who's moving through stuff and we all are. But also for me as somebody who is really just trying to better understand my role as a middle-aged white guy in modern society and see

and understand the things that people of color are moving through that I've probably been pretty blind to for most of my life. It's been interesting because when I listen to your podcast, I hear not only great advice, but I also hear cultural experiences that I just, I don't, I'm not in that conversation. I don't have that same conversation in my head. It's really, it's been fascinating for me being who I am to listen to it on a regular basis. Yeah, I think I was very shocked by how many like non-Black women were listening to the podcast. Because of course, again, it is very much for them. Like that is who I'm making the podcast for.

But lots of like non-Black therapists will tell me they listen to and like get great information. And I'm glad, like I feel like that's like a happy byproduct of the podcast that other people can also get really good information that may help them to have less traumatizing, again, experiences with people of color and Black women in particular in their therapy offices. So if it can help in that way, I'm glad to hear that too. Yeah. So it's interesting. So then your sort of like, quote, primary listening audience is Black women, but also it sounds like you're really also looking to speak to therapists. Well, I'm not looking to speak to them. But you are.

Yeah, they are just getting good information from it. Yeah. And I hadn't thought about that ahead of time. What was the, I mean, what was actually the initial incentive? So like there are a hundred different ways that you could be of service. You chose to, like one of the primary forms for you is media, is hosting conversations, is sharing ideas, is sharing in the form of a podcast. Right. Why? So it started out as a blog. So Therapy for Black Girls actually started as a blog.

But I was way less consistent with blogging than I am with podcasting. And I think I just was never able to get like the immediate feedback from my readers that I get from the podcast listeners. So, you know, podcast listeners are a very different breed of people, right? Even though lots of them, I'm sure, read blogs. But I think the intimacy of the medium really makes people feel like they want to talk back to you. And so, you know, I was just getting so much feedback very early on from the podcast that it made it easy to kind of continue. And it made it very clear that people needed this and that they appreciated the information. So it really has kind of just accidentally been that podcasting was the thing that connected to people. Because I already had said like I already had blog pieces on the website that people just weren't, you know, grasping in the same ways.

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Other than the fact that you found that other professionals and people of all color were listening, were there any other really big surprises? I think just how many people listen has been incredible to me. I mean, you know, I think and I still try to figure out like, OK, what's going to be the marketing plan and, you know, all of this stuff. But really, it has just spread by people telling other people like, hey, you should check this out. Or, you know, they love one particular episode and they're sharing it with everybody in their circles, you know. So it has just been an incredible word of mouth campaign, which of course is, right, the best marketing, right, that you can get.

It has just been incredible. It's been tremendous. Yeah. One of the things that you've spoken about in various different ways also is we've touched on a little bit is the idea of depression and depression in the context of sort of the cultural perception of a strong black woman and how those two things sometimes don't play well together. Talk to me more about this. People who have either invested consciously or subconsciously in holding this idea of a strong Black woman, sometimes they miss the signs of depression. So they're so busy trying to take care of other people, they don't realize how low their own motivation is or that they're not interested in doing things that they used to do. Or some of those signs of depression are very easily missed because you're so outward focused. And so if you're not paying attention to kind of what's going on in your body and your mind, then you miss some of those signs that could indicate like, hey, I'm in trouble here. You know, I probably need to go and talk with somebody about this. Yeah. You also not too long ago dropped an episode. I'm trying to remember the title of it. It was five minutes. I think it was your U.S. Open moment. Oh, yeah. That was several episodes ago.

Which was one of my booster sessions. Yeah. It was not a normal episode. It wasn't one of your regular sort of long or deep dives. But it was about what happened, I guess, at the U.S. Open with Serena Williams. Right. Tell me a little bit more about that moment and also what you said and why you felt compelled to just basically turn on the mic and say there's something I need to get out. Yeah. So, I mean, so you have listened to the episodes, so you know I'm big on pop culture. So I'm always paying attention to like, what are people talking about right now? And if there's a slant that I can take for the podcast, then I usually try to connect it.

So I just remember that moment. And, you know, Serena, I'm not a huge tennis fan, but I'm a huge Serena fan. And so have followed her career and like just the ways that she has consistently been vilified in the media and like she could just never do anything right, it feels like. So in this moment, you know, where she's kind of making her comeback after the baby and, you know, all of these things, like it just felt like such complete frustration in a way that I think lots of Black women were able to connect with, like that you just never can get a break. And so, you know, that was a lot of conversation I saw online. And that was when I shared this story about the valedictorian speech.

Like, what was the moment in your life where you realized no matter how amazing you are, like nobody would give you anything? And so I shared that speech and other people were able to connect with, because I think again, like a lot of Black women have that moment, like are the first memory of like when you knew that the world was not the same for you as it is for other people. When you share something like that, do you think about the way that you're putting it together and the potential response to it differently than one of the sort of more regularly scheduled, you know, like a longer, more prescriptive type of offerings? Yeah, I don't necessarily think about it more, but I do think in hindsight, those are some of the ones people like the most. Because again, I think when I'm just like asking questions of another therapist or I'm talking about like whatever the topic is, people don't necessarily get to know me as much. But on those shorter episodes, when I'm connecting it to more

of my experience, then they get to know me more. So, you know, even though they're hearing my voice every week, I'm not necessarily sharing a lot about who I am and what's going on with me. And so I think people really like those episodes where they can connect to like, who is Dr. Joy behind the mic? Yeah. I mean, it's more like you said, you do a lot of interviewing of other people or sharing other people's voices. It's like your moment to say like, okay, this is what's going on inside of my head.

As you become an increasingly public person, how does that land with you being that person and being both having a platform and a voice and large numbers of people now listening to you, but also, you know, along with your ability to actually share what's on your mind, is the ability for other people to share what they think about you and what you're saying as well. Does that, are you okay with that? How do you navigate that? Yeah, so that's something I feel like I'm like learning to navigate, you know, because I think because I have become more public

and, you know, the podcast is more popular now, I definitely am getting more like critiques in a way that don't feel like fair critiques or helpful critiques. Like, you know, people have different opinions and that feels fine, but people will sometimes send me like nasty emails, which feels very, you know, off-putting and like, I think always causes me to take a step back, like, okay, what's going on here? And I think because of my clinical training, I'm able to kind of quickly see this is likely more about them or something they have going on than it is about me, but it's still off-putting, you know, because I think, I feel like I'm trying to do really good work for people and, you know, be of service and use my skills and knowledge to help

other people. So I think it always feels like a slap in the face when I get some of those emails. But again, my clinical training, I think, helps me to kind of make sure that I'm putting that back on other people. But I don't know how that will increase as I become more public. I would imagine it gets more, you know, bigger and bigger. So I don't honestly know, like, how I'm going to deal with it. Yeah. I mean, it's an interesting thing as your audience, there'll be a time where you're probably, you're talking to 10 times the number of people you're talking to now. And 10 times the number

of people, a percentage of that will feel both the entitlement and the need to want to share what's on their mind about your thoughts and you. I think it's such a, I'm so curious how different people dance with that, you know, and also how, how culture and, and how race and how I think backgrounds play into both the way you step into that role and the way that people choose to respond to you, because it's gotta be different. Like they're not, they're probably, I can't imagine somebody, you know, like every single person saying, I'm going to respond the exact same way to everybody, no matter what. Right. Of course. Of course. Yeah. I mean, I definitely have had some attacks. You know, again, my stuff is made for Black women. And so overwhelmingly Black women have

been incredibly supportive of me. But, you know, the directory for therapists has gotten lots of press as well as the podcast. And so sometimes I will get comments from like non-Black people about like, well, why therapy for Black girls? Like, what about white girls? Or what about all of these other kinds of things? And that I choose to not even engage with because it feels like that's not a good use of my energy. So, but again, like you're saying, as the, you know, popularity increases, there will be maybe 10 times more of that. And am I always going to be able to ignore that? I don't know.

You know, I mean, so some of it definitely has had a racial slant to it, but some of it has not been like a race kind of thing. It's more of like a, oh, you know, who are you? You're annoying kind of thing. So typical Internet troll type of stuff, right? It's why I never read the comments on YouTube. Right, you can't read the comments. It's just always a really bad, bad place to be. But you know, that has been really difficult for me too, because a part of what's really

important to me is to make sure I'm very connected to my community. Like it's how I make sure I'm giving them content that they want to hear. I'm constantly soliciting their feedback. And so some of that requires me to read comments because I'm wanting to be in community with them. But of course, then every now and then you will run against something that's like, you know, not community nice behavior and, you know, you can't help but read it. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting as you're saying that, which has popped into my head was that in the past, like the majority of what I put into the world was as a blogger, writing books and then, but really spending years as a blogger, putting out a lot of stuff. And in the early days of blogging, you know, we were all really excited when the early platforms came out and you actually could add comments.

And it was a conversation. And then you start realizing there were more and more comments. And then you start realizing, oh, I don't like some of these comments. And people are coming to my house and attacking me in my front yard. And then you have the decision, am I just going to let it hang out there? Am I going to delete it? Am I going to censor it? Am I going to respond to it? Am I going to let my community respond to it. And then there was a moment where I saw a whole bunch of my colleagues, early bloggers with fairly significant followings, all begin to one by one turn off comments on their blogs. Because they got to a point where the volume of pushback, even though maybe it was still 10 to one good versus bad, but still the volume of the negative became, they just, it became so distracting, so disconcerting that they were like, you know what? I just can't handle this. Yeah.

I don't want to handle this. You know, if you want, if you have something to say, that's awesome. You now have 10 different platforms and profiles that you own where you can let loose. But not in my backyard. Yeah. And they just start turning it off. And it's interesting because in podcasting, like we don't have comment sections

in the show notes on the listening apps, right? So people are already, they're sharing comments, but they're generally doing it across all their own platforms and profiles. So yeah, I mean, I think we're not at the point, but my sense is that a lot of us are sort of exploring how to navigate this, especially because you put strong opinions into the world. Right. I do.

I think we all do because it's kind of not worth doing if you don't do that. Right. You know, which means you just in their personal lives. What are one of the two most effective things that you do that maybe other people could do also to handle a level of increasing criticism without crumbling? I hired people. So, you know, because community is really important to me, I still want to have a community, but I don't want to be the one who is like the first line person. So now I have a team of community managers who like manages the comment section and my Facebook group and all of those things, which has helped incredibly. And I also have a virtual assistant who like manages my email. So, you know, by the time it gets to me, it is like either really, really washed down or not at all. Right. Like they will just take care of it for me because, you know, because the content is what is most important to me, like making sure people get good information. I feel like dealing with that stuff really was focused, taking away too much of my energy

and focus. And I feel like I can't keep showing up in the ways that I want to for the podcast and then my weekly videos and all of those things if I'm taking too much energy and focus to deal with that other stuff. So community is important to me, but I don't feel like I have to be the one managing any of it anymore. So if you can find even, you know, if you can hire people, great, but also volunteering, like podcast listeners really love to like, want to be a part of something. And so you will likely even be able to find volunteers who'd be willing to help you manage a community if you needed to.

Yeah. I love that. We actually take a similar approach because I'm sensitive too. And I'm like, if I saw every comment coming in, good or bad, I would spend my entire day just being like, you know, like engaging with it and sort of like swinging violently from back and forth. And I just want to be able to actually do the thing I'm here to do, which is create and put ideas into the world. You mentioned a directory, which I think is really important and interesting to talk about too. So part of what you did, you have a very specific offering. You have your podcast, you're speaking to a particular person. And at the same time, you decided at some point,

I need to put together a directory. What was the genesis of that and what's it about? Yeah, so it's funny because it didn't come up because I needed to. It's just something felt like I had to. So again, because I spent lots of time like in social media, kind of engaging with people, I kept seeing this commentary around like, oh, I really like to find like a great therapist, like who has a good therapist, that kind of thing. And so in December of 2017, I believe, or 2016, I put out a call that said, hey, if you are a Black woman who's had a great therapist, send me their information. I will compile it all into like a little database

and like, we'll just put it up on the website for people to find people. And so by the end of December, I had like 90 therapists already. Most of them were nominated and some people were like, oh, this looks really cool. Let me add my practice to it. And so it kind of felt like something that happened organically just because I kept seeing conversations around it. Right. And have you found that most of the therapists are also either black women or women of color or people of color? Yeah, by and large. So now there are over 1,200 therapists in the directory. So what started as 90 is now 1,200. And most of them are overwhelmingly Black women. Right.

Of the ones that aren't, I'm curious. So if a tiny, tiny percentage of them are not, how do they end up there? Is it just because women of color, Black women, are saying this person? I guess maybe the other question is, if everybody's nominating, do you get people saying like, this is my therapist, they're fantastic. They really understand me, my story, like where I come from, my unique concerns, especially as a woman of color. And they're white. Yeah.

So actually it's not a nomination thing anymore. So now you can just list your practice as a therapist. But a lot of therapists who were originally nominated were not Black women. So a lot of, you know, I mean, again, like there are just not enough Black therapists to go around for everybody who would want one. And so that means lots of people are working with non-Black therapists. And people were having fantastic experiences with people who were not other Black women and they wanted to nominate their therapist. And they would even say that like, hey, this is not a Black woman, but this person has been amazing and I love them.

So of course I would add that. So anybody has the option to join the directory. It just has so happened that most of the people who are listed are Black women. So when you sort of look at what you've created now, you've got a media brand, you've got a service brand, you've got a directory, you've got a community, which you mentioned, which happens online. When you look to the future about what you want to create and where you want to go with this, do you have a clearer sense of what

that looks like? Or are you just kind of more open to what it needs to be? I feel like I'm very open, but my community has been very clear in that they want more in real life events. They want an opportunity to come together. They've been asking for some kind of retreat or something. So I feel like that will be a part of what happens like in the very near future. Is that something you want to do just on a personal fulfillment level? Yeah. I feel like I want to like see these people in real life who have been like so incredibly supportive. But I feel like I need to find people to do that because like event management and planning does not feel like a skill for me. So I feel like I also want to find like the right people

who can bring to life like this vision. Because of course, if I'm going to do it, I want it to be something that like really feels like a therapy for black girls event. And I wanted to have the feel of like, oh, we're just hanging around, like listen to the podcast in some way. So I wanted to have a certain feel

that's still very consistent with the brand. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So we're sitting here in the context of this container and good life project. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To be connected. To be connected to others who you love. Thank you. Yeah, thank you.

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