Good Life Project - Time Is a Matter of Choice: Laura Vanderkam

Episode Date: March 11, 2015

As busy, productive humans living in the 21st century, one of our most common responses to the question "How are you?" is "Fine. Busy."Especially if you're a New Yorker.And it's true. We are.But have you stopped to think about what you fill your time with that makes it slip through your fingers so quickly?Today's guest, journalist and author, Laura Vanderkam, analyzed peoples' time diaries recorded over 1001 days and came up with some startling discoveries. You may not be nearly as "at the will of life's demands" as you think you are.In our conversation, we start out exploring the truths of the writer's life, then dive right into the truth about time, how to really harness it, how we lie to ourselves about sleep and so much more. In, the end, we find more hope than anything else.How we spend our time, it turns out, is not a matter of fate, it's a matter of choice.Some questions I ask:When did you decide that being a writer was your thing?Are you okay with not having much time to write for yourself anymore?Do you believe no one is a natural at writing?What surprised you from your time diary studies?Can you have it all?Links we mention:How to Make Work Feel More Like Summer CampThe Artist's Way - morning pagesFast CompanyIRSAGretchen Reynolds - HIITPareto PrincipleJoAnne WilsonI Know How She Does It - out June 9thFollow Laura:Blog | Twitter | LinkedIn"The reality is rosier than the glasses." Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I think keeping that mindset that, you know, you have more time than you think for the things you want to do, but that time is ultimately limited. You have 168 hours a week. You have 8,760 hours in a lot of conversations where people tell me that they would love to be writers. Not just write on the side, not just do something occasionally, but actually live the life of a writer, earn their living that way. Today's guest, Laura Van de Kam, has done just that. She is a writer, full-time, contributing regularly to a whole bunch of different magazines and a multi-time author. Her latest book, actually, I Know How She Does It, is forthcoming in just a little bit this year. And we're going to dive into both the writer's life, what it's like to actually construct a career or vocation around writing, when that's the thing that you love to do most.

And then we're going to dive into the book and specifically actually some of the research, really cool eye-opening and myth-busting research that she's done around the illusion of how we think we spend our time during the day and how we really spend our time during the day. We talk about priorities in a really different way. We talk about sleep. And she actually says that most of us are getting a lot more sleep than we think we're getting. And we dive into that because she did her own research to actually make these claims. So I hope you enjoy this conversation. for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes.

New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest. And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push. Find your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised.

The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him.

Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. Fun to be hanging out with you here. Since I think, you know, like, I think it was actually the article that you actually wrote about making workplaces more like a camp environment that got you onto my radar. And then I started exploring what else you were up to and realized that I guess we probably share some pretty similar views on how to work and how not to work and how to contribute to the world. But I'm curious about your background because I actually don't know a whole lot about your personal journey.

So give me like the thumbnail and then we may dive in and do some deep dives along the way. Yeah, well, I'm a journalist first and have enjoyed writing about interesting people for much of my life. And one of the things I find fascinating is how people spend their time because we all have the same number of hours. And yet people manage to do very different things with them and experience them in very different ways. So a lot of what I've written about has turned into time management and productivity topics over the past few years. On a personal note, I live outside Philadelphia, I have three kids and enjoy hanging out with them as well. So the whole time management thing is not just a work fascination.

And with three kids and having a professional career and a life, it's personal for you. It's always personal. But I think that's what all of us wind up writing about is what is personal to us. But, you know, you can be in any demographic and want to use your time better. Certainly, when we have full lives, when we have kids, spouses, jobs, we become more aware of these things. But there's so many good ways to think about our time and strategies that we can use that I like to look at people at all demographics too. So when you when you started writing, you said you were focusing more on writing about individuals, writing about people.

Yes, I love stories about people. I love to see what people's journeys have been and how they get to where they are. So where did that fascination start? Do you remember a time where you're like, this is cool and I could potentially actually make this my thing? Make this my thing. You know, I've always loved writing. I think that my love of writing about stories about people came from,

I used to write stories in my bedroom at night when I was a kid. I would just write little short stories and illustrate them. And that's what I've always done. It's always what I've been happy doing. And I love to write fiction, but then you look around at the world and realize there's so many great stories that actually happened that I love to write about that too. Yeah. I saw the truth is stranger than fiction phenomena. So do you have a, do you have a fiction book in you? Do you think? Oh, definitely. I know. I always have. I mean, similar to you, I write nonfiction, but there are so many

ideas that kind of pass into my head. And you're like, hmm, this can make for a really interesting story. But as a writer, I mean, it's a very different process. It is. And the funny part about it, I mean, I've read a lot of people's novels, have been writing groups over the years. And one of the things people always tell you, and you're like, Oh, I don't think that seems realistic in this novel. And they're like, but it really happened. And the truth is that truth is no excuse in fiction, like it doesn't matter that it actually happened. It has to be believable on its own. And that's an entirely different set of rules. But with that with nonfiction, I mean, you can get away with things because it really happened. I mean, if you're being honest about your reporting and all that, that you could never do in fiction.

That's kind of an interesting lens. So you start when, what was your first writing gig? So I spent a year after college working at USA Today, and I had an internship on the editorial page. And I was there, you know, writing headlines, fact checking columns, emptying people's outboxes, I guess. And the typical starting job. But I like to write. And so I decided to try writing some columns, and my editors were kind enough to start running them. And so I wrote about issues pertaining to young people and to college for my time there and kept writing for them afterwards and have, you know, expanded to other places since then. Yeah.

What is it? I mean, it's interesting. Probably my primary outlet is writing, although we're sort of exploring a lot of different things. But would you consider yourself a writer's writer? And by that, I mean, like, I have friends where all they want to do is write. This is like, they feel like they were born to write. This is their form of expression.

If you took it away, they couldn't easily swap something else in. It's like, they don't want to do anything but that. Or do you consider yourself sort of more of a, this is one way that I contribute and that I, yeah. I do love writing. And I definitely think that that is how I express myself best. It is how I organize my thoughts, certainly more so than speaking, doing interviews, things like that, which is interesting because again, the writing about nonfiction, writing nonfiction, you're trying to put out an idea. And so you need to be interested in those ideas and want to spread those ideas in whatever way you can do that. And there are many ways other than writing to do that. And so people sometimes ask me about other mediums or, you know, other ways that I would be spreading these ideas, or if I'm

first tied to the idea, and then the writing comes after that. And it's like, actually, that's not really how it worked. I have been a writer, first and foremost, I found a subject that interested me that I wanted to keep writing about. And that's more or less how my career has worked. Yeah, I mean, it's interesting. Also, you mentioned, are you attached to the topic more to the process of writing? And which is it? because for me, my process has been, I kind of latch onto something for a couple of years. It's sort of like the Gladwell style approach. It's like you take a topic, you go massively deep, then you put something out and then

you kind of move on to something else. I think it's, but then there are people who write and they write about one thing for their entire lives. I think that would be hard to do. I think I would get a little bored. And one of the reasons I love blogging, I've been writing almost daily on my blog for many years. And it's just because it's a place I can put anything. I mean, I can't sell my random thoughts on the LeBron James going back to Cleveland idea. Nobody wants to hear what I have to say

about that for a paid publication, but I can put it on my own blog. And so it's the outlet for expression. But it's also at the same time, I mean, one of the things that's happening in the world of writing is there's a lot of different disenfranchisement. There's a lot of mass shift in the way that business is happening. And at least from what I'm hearing, a lot of people who came up through sort of like old school editorial journalism are in a lot of pain. But when you take somebody who's got that training and then say, okay, I'm also gonna,

now I'm gonna put out my own property. I'm gonna build my own audience. It seems like that would give you a lot of power to be able to really determine where are you gonna write for whom. I mean, even if you, so you put out a book, let's say, and you have a number of books and you're working on your next one, when it comes time for that to come to market,

now you don't have to rely on other publications. You know, you start, even if you're building your own, you know, community on your own blog and it's just random musings, now when something more substantial comes out, you can say to those guys, hey, I've got something to come out, rather than hoping that somebody else is going to pick up the story to a certain extent. Yeah, I've learned definitely with the whole process of getting books out there and getting them to readers that it is often about your own audience and your own social media followers,

the people who have read previous books and have kept in touch with you and want to read future books. And so you don't know that with the first one. You sort of have this assumption of how the book world works. And I've had wonderful experiences with my publisher and with the media attention they've been able to get from my books. But I do know that a lot of it is about somebody wants to hear from you, and they need to have that relationship with you now. And so I'm hopefully building that up more with blogging. And when I write for other places, hopefully people will come back and find me

and stay connected that way. So how do you feel about that, though? I mean, is it a necessary evil? Or is it something that you know, that the actual socialize and interacting and engaging side of things? It's a lot easier now, just because there are so many ways to interact with people that that are workable for those of us who are a bit more on the introverted side, I can connect with people via Twitter that I would probably not walk up to and talk to. Which is so many writers, by the way. Which is so many writers.

It is so much better to have that as an option. I like it. I started blogging years ago just because, again, people told me, well, it's something you should do, that you should have your home online, that people can come find you. And then I found I love this. Like, I really love this.

And it's somewhat self-indulgent, of course. But I feel like it's also helped my writing, too, that posting 500-word essays daily has made me much quicker at writing 500 word essays. And so if you call me up and say, I need an essay on this in two hours, I can do it. And because I do it in 30 minutes for my own blog. So it's my practice. So it's, it's my practice and I get better at it hopefully. And I see how I do things on the blog that I should make better in the books. And I see what people react to. Yeah. So were you, were you somebody who ever did like morning pages? I have not done that. So I kept a journal for years. And I would usually write at night since I've really started blogging regularly. I've kind of stopped that. I've reached the point where I'm not sure how many more words

I have in me. So between the daily blog, I'm writing right now three times a week for Fast Company. I write columns for other places. I'm coming out with a book roughly every 18 months. Like I don't have a whole lot more words. Yeah. I mean, that is, I mean, that is a massive, and I'm happy to write for other places. Like I love, I love having new places to reach readers. But I wind up not writing a whole lot for just myself anymore. So does that bother you?

Are you cool with that? I think that it's, it's a trade off and, and my community of readers at my blog are so supportive that I can write about whatever random things my kids do, and they'll indulge me on it. I'm a little wary of the whole putting kids' photos up online where anyone can see. I haven't quite figured out how to be authentic in sharing their stories while also protecting their privacy. And that's something I'm still working through. So unlike my journal, where I could

tell all of that. But I, you know, I think it's a trade off that I'm happy with right now. And hopefully, my kids will be if they go back and read the archives later. So you just shared your, you're blogging regularly about 500 word posts, you're putting out a book about every 18 months. You're committed to writing three times a week for Fast Company. And I'm guessing there are other gigs that just kind of dropped from the sky on a regular but random basis. Regular but random. A couple other places I would love to write for too, yes. That is a mass, I mean, anybody would look at it and say, that is a massive amount of content to create. It is a lot of content. And perhaps some people would read it and say she should probably write less.

I'm not suggesting that at all. I think the volume, there's different ways of trying to get better at things. And I throw my hat in with the volume strategy. But also you said something really fascinating, which is a lot of people would look at that and say, okay, that's insane. There's no way that somebody could keep up quality content at that level of production. But what you said before, I think is really fascinating. And I don't want to skip over it, which is that when you write at that rate, you build this muscle that allows you to just create on a higher level faster.

So you don't actually, it's not that what you're doing is diluted by the frequency and the volume of what you're creating, it's that you actually build the muscle of being able to create really high level quality content because you're doing it so often. I hope that's the case. I certainly hope that's where I'm going with all this. I do believe that the more you do something,

the better you get at it. And I've been working on a essay about public speaking, which is not something that has come easy to me. And yet I do enough of it now that I really love it. And I think I'm getting better at it. And hopefully the audience members who are sitting out there listening to me agree with that. But I've realized no one's a natural at it. You have to do a lot of it. And the more you put yourself out there, the better you get at it as you see what audiences react to, see what works, see what doesn't, hone your material from there. It's the exact same thing with writing or any other thing. I mean, playing a musical instrument or running. I mean, you have to do a certain volume of training, a certain amount of it before you get better.

If you're looking for flexible workouts, Peloton's got you covered. Summer runs or playoff season meditations, whatever your vibe, Peloton has thousands of classes built to push you. We know how life goes. New father, new routines, new locations. What matters is that you have something there to adapt with you, whether you need a challenge or rest.

And Peloton has everything you need, whenever you need it. Find your push, find your power. Peloton, visit Pel your power. Peloton. Visit Peloton at onepeloton.ca. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. Compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is?

You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. So you just threw something out there that nobody's a natural at it. Do you really believe that? I think there are people who have more inclination toward things. There are people who have some talents in the way of certain things that they would do, certain performing talents.

I think that slight differences at the beginning can get magnified over the time, because when you are naturally slightly better at something, you tend to enjoy it. Right. And then because you enjoy it, you work harder. And as you work harder, you get better and better. And so these things feed on each other over time. Yeah. It's so fascinating because it kind of starts to segue into this exploration of excellence and greatness. And I don't know, did you see recently there was, you know, there's the classic 10,000 hour roll. And there was a recent study that came out that did a meta-analysis of all of the original research and all of his following research. And what they showed was that the deliberate practice was not nearly the factor in many different domains of high-level expertise that the original research showed it was. In fact, professionally, it was as little as 3%

of what led to the top, top, top people. I think it was music and athletics is where it was sort of like the highest expression of, you know, they could really relate, you know, correlate it strongly to top-level performance, like 70% correlation or something like that. But in professional life, sort of day-to-day working, like being the best at your job, whether you're an accountant or investment banker or

whatever it may be, it contributed way less than a lot of people thought, which is interesting because I think we want to latch onto so much the notion that you being able to get really, really, really good something, it's not about what you're born with. Like anybody can do it. So it's a matter of work. So we, we so desperately want to believe in the deliberate practicing. And I'm not saying I don't, but I think, um, I wonder if we, well, I guess the research, at least the latest study that I saw really kind of shows that, um, what you come into this world or external factors, you know, environmental factors really contribute a huge amount also. Well, of course. I mean, I think that these things are not either or.

I think that what we were talking about, that you have a natural inclination towards something, that you're a little bit better at it. You get better and better at it as you get the positive feedback. And, of course, as you say, we like to latch onto a concept that is – Right, because it makes us feel good. It makes you feel good and that you could also sell books on. I mean, this is a part of we're all looking for the big idea that's accessible to everyone and can have a quirky name that we'll all remember.

Right. Exactly. So with everything that you're doing and you're, you know, like you've got this incredible career. You're also your mom. You've got three kids. Then how you spend your time becomes something which is pretty important to you. So and something that you've written fairly extensively about and done some really interesting sort of experiments around. So tell me when you really start to focus on this. Sort of personally, when you start to say to yourself, okay, if I'm

going to be able to do all of this simultaneously, and really feel like I'm performing at it, you know, feeling good about it, I've got to look at the way that I'm investing my be able to do all of this simultaneously and really feel like I'm performing at it, you know, feeling good about it. I've got to look at the way that I'm investing my time. And then I think like most people, it occurred after I had my first kid. I mean, because that really is a moment in life where you realize that your time has some pretty big, you have some big time commitments. I mean, I guess that's how we describe children. They are big time commitments. And also that you have to be mindful about how you're spending your

time, especially if you want to do something and you need childcare in order to do it, you have to think through it ahead of time and make arrangements for it to happen. And a lot of people, when they don't have that, they can be a little bit more free-flowing with their time. And I think that that transition is very hard for people to be accountable for their time. But the good news is that once I started to look into it, I was certainly influenced by all the moaning about how there's no time for anything that goes on a lot in popular culture. But I think that that's a missing – How are you busy? How are you busy? Yes. And that's how we answer. And it's, it's a good way of saying, I really don't want to talk about this anymore. So, uh, you know, busy, I've said busy. Somebody asked me how I'm doing. I'll say busy because what are you supposed

to say? I'm doing great. Life is, that's not what people really want to hear. They want to have that sort of, we're all in this together mindset. But what I found is that when we take a more holistic view of our time, we often have more time than we think we do. And it's human nature to focus on the stressful moments because negative incidences stand out more than positive ones. That's certainly true if you look at studies into loss aversion or anything like that, that you remember the bad stuff. And we also have this formula of how we tell stories that three points of evidence leads to a conclusion. So I could tell you, like, I had this happen today, and this happened to this, and this and life is crazy. Life is unsustainable. But you can free yourself from that narrative,

too. You can say, well, there are these stressful moments, and then there are these not so stressful moments. And I am interested in how we can have those juxtaposed together that somebody who on a time log can have moments that look kind of crazy, like she's been traveling for two or three days and comes home late and has to go kiss her kids goodnight while they're sleeping and go back to work. You know, you can look at that and say, that's crazy. That's not good. But then if you look at the whole week, you see that she's reading chapters and chapters and books to her kids on the other days, and she's going skiing with them on the weekend. And she's had time booked in with friends in the morning that she goes running with them. I mean, there's these other things that can

happen in a week too. And so if you focus only on the stressful moments, you get a different picture than if you look at all of it. So, I mean, it sounds like it's not only focusing only on the stressful moments, but also focusing on almost maybe like too short a window to get a real picture of what's happening. I think a week is the cycle of life as we actually live it. One of my books is called

168 hours, which is in fact, 24 seven, no one ever multiplies that through, but it is 168 hours, if you want to check me on that. And the reason to look at our life this way is that, you know, what's a typical day for you? Is it Tuesday? Is it Saturday? I could look at you on those two days. I mean, they both have the exact same number of hours, and they both occur just as often. But if I look at you, you have a very different life. I'd get a very different picture of your life on those two days. And it also shows us how much time we really have. Because, you know, a lot of times people say, well, I can't do anything else.

I'm working full time. Okay, well, let's look at that. If you're working 40 hours a week, if you sleep eight hours a night, so that's 56 hours a week, that leaves 72 hours for other things. That kind of sounds like a lot of time to me. I mean, if you're working 50 hours, that's 62 hours. You know, if you're working 60 hours, that leaves 52 hours for other things. Again, these are not small bits of time.

You can have a life if you want to, but you have to be conscious about using that time well. So, yeah, I mean, when you break into the mac mac, it's like the macronutrients, right? The macro units like that, and you look at the bigger block, you know? Then the question, I guess, becomes, okay, so, all right, I buy that. And even if I say I'm working 70 hours a week

and I sleep longer, you're still, no matter what, I guess you're still gonna end up with over a week, enough of a chunk so that you can fit a lot of other stuff. Yeah. I mean, the CDC tells us to exercise 2.5 hours a week. I mean, I think we can find the time. Yeah. Which is, I'm always amazed also there's, it's funny, I haven't been able to find this since then, but back when I was in the fitness business, there was the URSA, which is like the International Health and Rectal Support Association, put out all of these marketing materials for health clubs to use as marketing materials. And in one of them, they cited this study that NASA did a couple of decades, like two decades

ago or something like that, where they measured the productivity of their employees who exercise regularly versus ones who didn't exercise regularly. And what they found was the first seven hours of the day, it was pretty much the same, but the eighth hour of the day, the exercisers stayed about the same. The non-exercisers dropped 50%. That's funny. And most people work nine hour, 10 hour, 11, 12. So can you imagine what the fall off is after that at this point? Exercise is definitely one of those things that when you do it, you see payoffs in the

rest of your life and how you're spending your time too. So it doesn't take a whole lot of time, but big payoff. Yeah. And I guess also the latest stuff is showing that it's not the long, slow exercise that actually really affects the brain the most. It's the shorter, more intense type of stuff. I guess Gretchen Reynolds raised it to a certain extent. I don't know.

I'm a runner, so I kind of like long, slow steady state cardio myself, but mostly because it's my me time. Like I don't really care if it would be better, more fat burning to do the high intensity interval training. It's not,

I wouldn't get out by myself in the nice fresh air for long enough doing that. So I prefer to take my 45 minute run. Do you feel like though, it's because it, how often do you exercise? Pretty regularly? Most days. So do you feel like that makes its own time in your life? I think it does. I often, this morning I ran bright and early. I was good about getting up

and running in the morning. I often do my run in the middle of the afternoon because I know that's the time when my energy levels would be slumping. And since I work for myself, I can do my run in the middle of the afternoon because I know that's the time when my energy levels would be slumping. And since I work for myself, I can do that without people complaining about me missing 2.30 PM meetings or coming back smelly from them. So I know that that's time that if I didn't run, I would just be surfing the web and be unable to focus. So by going for a run, I recapture that time for

something that's actually productive. Yeah. So, okay. So, so you have total control over your schedule. So we're going to have a lot of people listening to this who don't. Yes. Well, we could go there. We can go there. All right. Let's go there. I do. I have a lot of control over my schedule, which I love. I assumed other people did not. I was assuming that whatever strategies I use in my life are perhaps peculiar to me, are things that I can pull off that others could not. But recently, I have been having lots of women who have professional jobs also have kids keep track of their time for me, keeping track of a full 168 hours one week. And I've been looking at these logs and seeing what conclusions I can draw. And the truth is that people in very conventional jobs wind up using many of the same strategies in order to make the pieces of their life fit together.

And so one of them, for instance, is what I call splitting shifts. You know, when I first came up with this in my own life, I thought I was brilliant and unique and all that. But you quit work at sort of a reasonable hour in the afternoon or early evening, hang out with your family for a few hours. And then after the kids go to bed, you get back online, go back to work, right? So I've done this most days, I would assume working days of my life at this point. But it turned out that in the sample of women I looked at, 45% were doing the exact same thing. So there are offices where people put in long hours, but many parents and others who care about having their evenings free have figured out ways to leave at a reasonable time and then log the hours later. conversations around this. But when you see that pattern, you're like, okay, cool. So now you can spend that time with, you know, like the family before the kids go to sleep, stuff like

that. Then the kids go to sleep and you're back at work. Then how does that impact your relationship with an intimate partner? Well, the good news is very few people do that seven nights a week. So, you know, people ask that question, like, but then if you do that every night, when do you see your partner? You know, Friday and Saturday nights are good for seeing your partner, for instance. I've also seen that many people take at least one night off from doing it. But even if you, say, have two hours after you put the kids to bed that you have available to you before bedtime, People might, for instance, work for an hour and then chill for an hour or work for an hour and a half and then hang out for half an hour

with their intimate partner. I mean, again, these things are not either or. Yeah, and I guess that's really the reality. I mean, how much, even if you had that time, or for people who don't do the second shift, like that would be 55% or 65%. 45%, yes. Right.

No, I'm thinking the opposite. Oh, the opposite, yes. The 55 who don't. No, I mean, and in many cases, they don't do it because they're working longer evenings. I mean, so they still have their. So they still have the same issue. It's just they lump it in one versus sort of splitting it in two, which is also the same pattern exists with entrepreneurs. I mean, it's the exact same thing.

It's entrepreneurship, especially when you're in startup mode the first couple of years. I mean, it's long hours, and you kind of hopefully make a deliberate trade off that. You're monitoring that and seeing how it's affecting you. But classically, I would bet if you did a really similar survey to entrepreneurs, especially in the first three years, that it would be double that rate of people who are doing the split shift. Yeah. And looking at it, it's the same thing with working on weekends. I mean, I could tell you like, oh, it sounds terrible to work on weekends. But what I would see people do is limit their hours during the week and then make up some of that on weekends when, for instance, a partner who has more of a conventional

job could hang out with their children, right? So they're getting solo time with each parent, and the parent who's in the more entrepreneurial role had more flexibility during the week, and then they'd trade that off on weekends. So that was another strategy. I mean, you could say working at night is bad. You can say working on the weekend is bad. But on the other hand, this is also how people advance their careers while also seeing their families. Yeah.

The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.

Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun on january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what's the difference between me and you you're gonna die don't shoot if we need them y'all need a pilot flight risk which brings up the idea also of of um quality time versus quantity time. What are your feelings around this? So again, I don't think these things are either or. It's the same when we talked about the volume strategy with writing. I mean, part of what allows for quality moments is that you're just spending a

big quantity of time with the people you care about. And while you're in those big quantities of time, stuff happens. That's really cool. You get the cool moments. The good news is that looking at people's time logs, even people who do work demanding hours, tend to see a reasonable amount of their kids. And that's just because, again, there's 168 hours in a week. And so, you know, people see their kids in the morning. They see them in the morning before they go to school and before they go to work. And people don't think about using that time, that that's time that's available to you. But again, if you've got little kids, you know they often wake up at the crack of dawn. Like you're not going to work at the crack of dawn.

And so you've got this time. And often it's a big chunk of time. It's just that everyone's so focused on getting out the door that you don't stop and use it. Yeah. So I'll bring something out of left field. but maybe it's not out of left field. It's not for me. I have a mindfulness practice, meditation practice, and I guess I surround myself it for this purpose, but one of the benefits of the practice has been a real shift in my ability to just kind of at any moment become more aware of whereroll through them and then say, okay, we're rushing out the door here. It's kind of like, well, do we have 30 seconds for me to just sit with my kid

and talk just briefly even and kind of inject that more in? But I think one of the challenges for people who consider themselves super busy is a lack of just core awareness of how they're spending their time at the moment that they're spending it. I think you're onto something there. I mean, whether it's a mindfulness practice or whatever it is, just pausing to notice what is happening and that if a small child has climbed in bed with you to snuggle, like you can sit there and snuggle for a minute. It's okay. Like whatever else you're doing probably can absorb that extra minute. And you can just there and snuggle for a minute. It's okay. Like whatever else you're doing probably can absorb that extra minute. And you can just pause and really enjoy this.

And that was actually one of the things I've seen on time logs that I find most heartening is people's ability to use small bits of time when they want to. I looked at a time log recently of a woman who had a really wretched commute in the morning. How long was it? Well, it was long, but not just long. She was bringing two kids to daycare that was a long way away on a bad highway. But they had to be in the car at 7.10. But she'd always get the kids ready by 7. And they would play for that 10 minutes, 7 to 7.10. And I love that she was using that. And there were other changes she was going to make in life. Like she, when I talked to her six months later, she moved basically

to get rid of that commute, which was a brilliant solution. But even when she had this very stressful existence, she was seizing that 10 minutes in the morning so that when they got in the car, they were not unhappy. They had just all played together. And I thought that was a wonderful way to be mindful of that time. Yeah. So it's, and I think that is really, that's to a certain extent, I think the missing conversation around the idea of, of optimizing the way you spend your time. It's like, you can't optimize it if you're not actually fairly aware of how you're actually spending it while you're spending it. How you're spending it and how you want to spend it too. I mean, that's the other question is that people assume they are so busy that they don't have time for any of these things that they might want to do. And so they don't sit there and ask, what are these things I want to do?

That's really interesting. Right. So you're like, why bother thinking about that when it just isn't even an option. Yeah. I mean, people want to know how to save 30 minutes a day. And so, well, what are you saving that time for? What on earth do you want to do with that time that you're not doing now? And if you sit there and think about it, chances are you'll find some way to fit it into the life you're living. And if that 30 minutes, if the want is for something you really want, you're probably even then more motivated to make sure that happens.

Well, and when you know what it is. And then you start looking at where the time is going and where it can fit in. And the funny thing about time is that it's highly elastic. I mean, it will expand to fill, I mean, expand to take in the things that you want to do with it. Yeah.

I know it's like the Pareto's law thing, a test will take exactly as long or as short as the time you allocate. And certain things expand to fill all available space. I mean, email will expand to fill all available space. Housework will expand. So you have to choose to give it less time. Talk to me.

Were there any other interesting things or surprises or patterns that you saw coming out of when you start to look at all the different journals? The good news is that people sleep more than we tend to think we do. Really? Yeah. All right, tell me. So the funny thing about sleep surveys, people call you up and ask, well, how many hours do you sleep a night? Well, what night? Okay.

Well, a typical weeknight. Well, what's a typical weeknight? Like one of the things I saw in these logs is there was no typical weeknight. Some people sleep the same amount every night, but a lot of people don't for varying reasons. But because of that, for the same reason that we tend to view negative instances as sticking out in the mind more than positive ones, we tend to remember our worst nights as typical. Oh, that's interesting. And so then we don't see that other nights happen too.

And that a bad night, it's not that a bad night didn't happen. It's just that it's no more emblematic of your life than any other night. And the good thing about keeping a week-long time diary is you can start to see this. You'd say, oh, well, you know, Wednesday night was awful. And I'm not kidding. Wednesday was the worst night for whatever reason. And then other days were better. But I looked at, this study is 1,001 days from time diaries, and I only found 37 days that featured fewer than six hours of sleep. Really?

That's it. Huh. So, yeah, that's not what I thought. I mean, on all the popular uh quote wisdom that's out there it's uh it the average woman in the study was sleeping 54 hours a week which is basically the equivalent of eight hours five nights a week and seven hours two nights a week huh was the pattern that um during the week was generally shorter and the weekends was sort of like you're making up for it? Yes. So the weekends, they were making up for some of it. Although, again, all the averages for during the week were longer than seven hours. I mean, sleep is a biological necessity. And there are people who have medical issues or chronic insomniacs who this doesn't apply to. But for many of us, our bodies will find a way to make it up. Right. Okay. So let me ask another question,

though. I have no idea if you tracked this too. Were people sleeping naturally? Or because there's also I mean, the percentage of the population that now takes sleep aids is ginormous. I'm sure it's ginormous. You know, I have no way of knowing that. I didn't look in people's medicine chest while I was writing this. I think that there's some evidence of some people have, you know, disordered sleeping. That's all there is to it. I mean, if you get a short night, one night, then you fall asleep in your kid's room while you're putting them to bed the next night. And that was certainly happening on some of the logs. But again, it's because sleep is a biological necessity. It's not a testament to how important you are. And this is the thing

that we have this image in our mind of like, I'm so important. I'm so busy that I don't sleep. Well, we all sleep, you know. And so I think looking at it and taking an honest look at it and where, uh, how we might build our lives so that sleep happens a bit more regularly is, is good. But the good thing to know is that it generally does happen. Now you've inspired me to actually track this a little bit more diligently. Well, it's, it's fun. I actually use an app, um, that with a sensor that goes under the mattress. That was a Kickstarter project. But, uh, so I have, I actually have, um, fairly detailed sleep logs of my phases of sleep and stuff like that. Um, and I was, I was, it's funny because it shows that I probably get very often better sleep than I thought.

Good. And I'm not somebody who champions lack of sleep in any way. I'm like, no, I want to be sleeping as much as possible. Interesting. So any other big ahas or surprises from this, Janice? People work less than one might think, too. So we sleep more and we work less. Just like a lot of bravado. Again, it's I mean, it's just human nature. I mean,

we overestimate the things that we don't want to do. And we underestimate the things that we do want to do. So it's easy to view our longest work days as typical, just as we view our shortest nights as typical. And you know, we live in in a competitive world too. So again, there are people who are overworked. I'm not saying there aren't. However, if we keep an honest track of our work hours, sometimes we get a different picture. We look at the whole thing. Very interesting. Yeah. It's the difference between what really happens and what you think happens. And then the observational data when you actually start to track it. I mean, the curiosity too with me is, because you see this

with nutrition journals with people, is that the simple fact that they're journaling changes their behavior. It does. And I am certain that there was some element of that in any study that I'm going to do. I mean, I know when I track my time, I'm better about doing things that I should do. It's the act of observing changes the thing being observed. I know if I'm sharing this log or even just looking at it myself that I have a certain impression of my life I want to have. So I wouldn't discount that. However, you know, it gets a little tiring to keep that mindset the whole time. We live our lives the way we are going to live them.

So I found that things were often more in control than sort of the picture we often have of modern life. So the glasses are actually rosier than – or the reality is rosier than the glasses. The reality is rosier than the glasses. Interesting. Interesting. Okay. Big thing that we throw out there. You can have it all. Yes, no, maybe.

Totally different approach. Sure. I mean, why not? I find it funny that we like to click on the phrase, can't have it all. And I've tried to explore why that might be. And perhaps some of it is knowing that even if you look at who's writing these articles, they're often extremely successful women that by those of us who are mere mortals look at them and we're like, that looks like having it all to be, I mean, you know, you've got a great job, you've got a loving family. And then I don't know, something happened, but you still have those things too. And I think that depends on how you define it. To me, I would say that having it all is having a job you enjoy and having a thriving family as well, whatever form that takes. And sure, why not? Why couldn't you have those two?

So I think on that level probably a lot of people would agree. So let me raise the stakes. I was sitting down and I had a conversation with Joanne Wilson last year who's a well-known venture capitalist, invests largely in women entrepreneurs, very often with a tech focus. And she's been around the world of tech entrepreneurship for decades now in a lot of different ways and been exposed to companies of all sizes,

from smaller sizes to the classic hockey stick, giant explosion, tech companies. And we had a similar conversation, and her answer was you could have it all, but not at the same time. But I think what we were talking about there was, and I guess it's the difference between the definition of having it all. Some people look at Sheryl Sandberg, or the people who are on top of these massive, massive, massive companies with huge, huge, huge careers.

And in their mind, that's having it all. And then somebody else looks at somebody who's earning really comfortable living, taking good care of their health and their family and enjoying what they do and saying, that's having it all. And I think what Joanne was saying, you can't be that person who's at the top of something elitely huge and have it all simultaneously. She's never seen an example of it. Actually, personally, I've never seen an example of somebody who hasn't blown up a major part of their life to get there. But I guess that's also not the definition that most people mean by having it all. I don't think many people actually aspire to that. I'm not sure how many aspire to that. And I think if you look at, I mean, many women who have been very successful in whatever fields, I mean, they have families.

Like Sheryl Sandberg appears to have a family she enjoys. So, I mean, in that sense, sure. Like you could say she has it all. I mean, she gives interviews where she says no one can have it all. But that doesn't mean that whatever this all is, by any standard of all, I think she has a lot of it. So yeah, but tell me if this is mythology to them, because I've had a lot of conversations with women and men about who work a lot, especially on the entrepreneurial side, and around whether there's a sense of guilt at, you know, like, well, I'm pouring all of my energy into this particular thing.

I feel like I'm not being a good mom or dad. But then if I put all of my energy into being a good mom or dad, I know this thing is not going to flourish in the way that, you know, I believe it could flourish. Do you think that's reality or perception? I think a lot of that is a negative perception. And again, there, if you look at how many hours people do, in fact, work, like not that they talk about working, but when they actually track their hours, there often is time for other things. It's also a choice I think you can be passionate about building your career and also passionate about building your family. And claiming those two are at odds is a very limiting mindset. Limiting yet pervasive. Limiting yet pervasive and unfortunately more pervasive for women. What do you think that is?

I think it's just historical expectations. I talk sometimes to women who are their family's primary breadwinners and yet somehow feel guilty about earning the cash that's keeping their family from being homeless. It's like, well, kids need time and money money and you're giving them both. So takeaways, if we're looking at this whole conversation and a couple of big things in my mind we've explored, you know, like one is the truth of the way that people spend their days and their nights versus the reality when you actually sit there and start to journal it, even if we allow for some level of the observation changing the fact.

It probably doesn't account for the entire misperception, probably by a wide margin. So when you accept that as really the foundation, then there becomes a really strong motivation to say, okay, let me do as much as I can humanly do to really figure out how to optimize the time that I do have. I do think time is precious. I mean, it is the ultimate limited resource. And so we have to be careful about how we choose to spend it. And that doesn't mean that you have to plan every 15 minutes. I mean, life would be insane if you tried to plan every 15 minutes.

So I don't advocate that at all. But asking what you'd like to do with your time and also recognizing that we are more in control of our time than we might think, that time is more of a choice than we often assume that whatever we are doing during our 168 hours is at least partly a result of choices we are making or have made in the past. And given that we've made those choices, we can choose differently if we so desire. And there may be consequences. I mean, of course, there's going to be consequences. But we're smart people. It's a rich country. We can probably do a lot to change anything we don't like. So I think keeping that

mindset that, you know, you have more time than you think for the things you want to do, but that time is ultimately limited. You have 168 hours a week, you have 8,760 hours in a year. So what do you want to do with them? Yeah. And just the notion, I think that for me, the key thing that you just shared is time is a choice. That's big, because I don't think most people feel that way. Yeah, well, one of the busiest people I ever interviewed told me that she never says, I don't have time to do X, Y, or Z. She says, I don't do X, Y, or Z, because it's not a priority. And if you think about it, that is probably more accurate language.

Absolutely, totally agree. Tell you I don't have time to dust my house, but somebody offered to pay me a hundred thousand dollars to dust my house. I'd get to it. You know, it's not a matter of lacking time. It's, it's that I don't want to do it. Wonderful. Um, what are you working on now? So I'm finishing up edits on a book that's coming out of this time diary project that I did. Um, so that'll be out in May or June. And I'm continuing to blog and to write about time and productivity and interesting stories. Yeah, very cool. So name of this project is the good life project. So if I offer that out to you to live a good life, what does it mean to you? It means to spend my time in a way that I'm happy

with that I've chosen. And that helps nurture my career, my relationships, and myself. Awesome. Love it. Thank you so much. Thank you. Hey, I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Laura. I see the difference between how we actually spend our time when it's truly logged and reported versus how we think we spend our time and how so much really comes down to choice. Just the simple idea that time is a choice and we're not nearly as forced into the way we're spending it as we think we are has really got me thinking about how I'm spending my days. So I hope it has you thinking a little bit too and also kind of a neat exploration into the writer's life and what it's like to build a career around that. As always, so excited to have you guys join us. If this show resonated, if you like what we're doing here, I'd so appreciate if you head on over to iTunes

and just share your thoughts. An honest review would be fantastic. And if Camp TLP, if our annual gathering, we literally take over a summer camp, a kid's sleepaway camp for three and a half days at the end of August and have this awesome blend of workshops and fun and celebrations. We call it Summer Camp for Makers, Entrepreneurs and World Shakers.

If that sounds like it could be really cool to you, then head on over to goodlifeproject.com slash camp, and you can check out all the details. I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just

15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary.