Good Life Project - Traci Ruble: Listening to Strangers, It’s a Movement.

Episode Date: December 4, 2017

Traci Ruble is a San Francisco based psychotherapist, clinic director and the founder of Sidewalk Talk, a community listening initiative that is exploding into a global movement.Starting out in the fa...st-paced San Francisco technology world, Ruble was rising up the ranks quickly, making a fantastic living and also pushing herself to a breaking point. Then, a death in her family sent Traci on a quest that led her out of tech, immersed her in travel, surfing and eventually therapy. These experiences unlocked an entirely new, deeply open and aware part of her, and also led her into therapy as a new career path.After years of education and building a flourishing practice and clinic, yet another profound moment of awakening led her to want to "take her chair out onto the street" and create a listening movement for so many people in pain who needed to be seen and heard, but didn't have the ability to be clients in a practice.What began as a makeshift band of therapists hitting the street to listen to anyone (for free, this is a non-profit) has turned into a global movement with city leaders in major cities around the world.In this week's conversation, we dive into this powerful journey of transformation. Ruble shares the early childhood experiences, living in a fundamentalist community to be pulled out and dropped back into mainstream culture without a rudder. We explore her lifelong fascination with exploring the dark caverns of her own and other's minds. Along the way, Traci offers wisdom about the power of listening and being fully present, the importance of being with, rather dissociating from pain, and reveals how spending time talking with strangers revealed her own implicit bias and changed her perspective in so many ways.And be sure to listen to the end, because we do something we've never done before. With Traci's permission, we've added in a special "addendum" to the original conversation that was not a part of our in-studio conversation. This brings you into a deeper "back story" that was offered in a later email exchange, and invites you to reconnect with, and share a truer, more vulnerable part of yourself.And, if you're inspired by Traci's Sidewalk Talk movement, you can join her on a new Community Listening tour from April 29 to May 5 down the East Coast of the United States. You can show up to share, or you can be a listener, too. You don't need to be a therapist to be a Sidewalk Talk listener. They will be offering listening training for anyone who wants to participate. Find the details here.+--------------------+We're grateful for the kind support of: ShipStation: Manage and ship your orders. FREE for 30 days, plus a bonus. Visit ShipStation.com, click on the microphone at the top of the homepage and type in GOODLIFE.MVMT Watches: Get 15% off today, go to MVMT.com/goodTunein: Catch all-new episodes of some of your favorite podcasts early with TuneIn First Play? Download the free TuneIn app now.Videoblocks:  Go to videoblocks.com/goodlife to get all the stock video, audio, and images you can imagine for just $149.Thrive Market: Get $60 of FREE organic groceries + free shipping and a 30-day trial atthrivemarket.com/goodlife. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 We are feeling machines that think. We are relating machines that think. But we live our lives as if we're thinking machines who just happen to feel. Today's guest, Tracy Rubell, is a San Francisco therapist who one day decided that, you know what, seeing people in an office, having a flourishing practice, being associated with incredibly bright colleagues and doing good work wasn't enough. She decided it was time to essentially drag a chair outside into the middle of San Francisco, sit down and listen to people, people from all walks of life, people very often who hadn't been seen and heard and listened to for years,
Starting point is 00:00:49 who were largely invisible to those around them and just go and be present in other people's lives to see and hear them. And that's what she did. She started the global listening project, Sidewalk Talk. And the stories that have evolved have changed the lives of so many, not the least of which hers and the team that she's building of people who now are expanding this throughout the country and eventually now the globe. Interestingly, this is a bit of a different issue.
Starting point is 00:01:18 There's a moment in this episode where I kind of break the third wall. I turn to you guys because there's an exchange that Tracy and I had after this conversation where a deeper genesis for where this project came from, a moment of awakening was revealed to me that Tracy wasn't comfortable revealing in the original conversation, but through further talk, she got comfortable and we both sort of agreed that this was an important part of the story that you needed to hear. So she agreed to allow me to share that conversation. And I read that to you, our exchange, to provide some really powerful context for why she's doing what she's doing. And what she's doing is really beautiful work that's helping a lot of people who very often would be left without being seen, heard, and helped. Excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.
Starting point is 00:02:25 I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot?
Starting point is 00:02:35 Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.
Starting point is 00:02:54 The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I was born in Southern California, but my parents, so my mom married a man who was not my father, and we moved to a really small town in Oregon. And that was sort of during that time living there was when, I guess, my mother immersed our family into sort of a fundamentalist religious group.
Starting point is 00:03:27 And I'm not going to say because I don't want to throw any religions under the bus, but there were really good things about it, right? I think God can be a really sweet attachment object for people, right? If you're having a personal relationship. But I think that as humans, we do some really interesting things with our understanding of God that become really complicated. And then my parents divorced, and we moved back to California and overnight. Oh, so that's like the bounce back into... Bounce back and overnight, all things relative to how I had been raised, dissolved. So suddenly we were no longer part of this religious belief system. So it was really jarring being a teenager and then not having that tether anymore to that fundamentalist belief and
Starting point is 00:04:13 sort of navigating my way through what do I actually believe? It was really an interesting time. Yeah. I mean, because in addition to just the shock of separation of parents, I mean, what's interesting is that your mom didn't say, okay, so we're still part of this belief system, but we're just, you know, like the relationship has ended. It was like a complete separation from the relationship and the entire community and belief system that surrounded it. Was your mom connected to that belief system and community only because of the relationship? No, I think that like all people, we're searching. And I think she's always been searching, right? And I think there are different seasons in our lives where we are, I mean, she was immersed in raising a family and pursuing a certain lifestyle. And I think at some point that didn't feed her anymore.
Starting point is 00:05:08 And so we came back and she got divorced. And I think she married three more times during my adolescent years. So it was a really, she was on a completely different trajectory. And then it really shaped me. Obviously, I'm a psychotherapist now. And I don't think psychotherapists become psychotherapists unless they've wrestled heavily with their own sort of upbringing and their wounds. And at the same time, I'm incredibly grateful for it because it challenged me to actually get clear about my intention and what I believe spiritually and come up with something that works for me.
Starting point is 00:05:42 Yeah. And it must have been really for you to come and then be dropped into this new world. Do you remember back then at that moment questioning not just, okay, so how do I fit into this society, which I really don't understand, but at that early age, how do I grapple with this question of what are my beliefs now about faith, about God? Absolutely. I feel like my entire high school was grappling with that question.
Starting point is 00:06:12 No kidding. Absolutely. And I would have really, I remember I had really, I can't remember his last name now, but I had an interesting conversation around the lab table in physics class one day. I mean, it was on my mind, as one does, about God. And this classmate of mine said something really profound, you know, and I think high schoolers can say really profound things, by the way. I've learned that from some of the listening I've done. And he said to me, you know, Tracy, do you think that you would even be tethered to these beliefs that you struggle with had you been born and raised in India. He said, you are marinating in this culture that sort of has this belief system dominating it,
Starting point is 00:06:54 but take yourself out of that context. And I don't know if I've ever told, his first name was Jim, I remember, and I don't know if I've ever told him that that was a pinnacle conversation in my spiritual life for me. I just went, right. And then I wanted to know, what do they believe in India? So then I had to go find books on Hinduism. And, you know, I realized, oh, we really are a product of the culture that we're marinating in. And this has really influenced me. Yeah. Did you have brothers and sisters? I have a younger brother. He's much, much younger. And boy, do we have, he still really believes some of the fundamentalist stuff. So we're on very opposite ends of the political spectrum, like extremely so. Yeah. But we were really close coming up. I mean, I was the one that he would come to when he had his first breakup.
Starting point is 00:07:48 I was really touched when he was heartbroken for the first time. I was already away out of the house because we were so far apart. But it was touching to me that I was the one that he wanted to sort of cry on my shoulder. Something deeper still connected you. Yeah. So at some point, you learned who Michael Jackson is. I did. One of the five important things to know at a certain window in your life.
Starting point is 00:08:10 Yes, I did. And emerged back into mainstream society. What do you become interested in? Who are you? What are you discovering about yourself? Are you asking me back then or right now? Back then. I'm curious.
Starting point is 00:08:23 And then I kind of want to know how that evolved. Yeah. Well, I still went back and forth with my dabbling with religion because I realized that it can be such a grounding force. And whenever I would get scared, like I was taking on some big new thing in life, I would sort of drift back in to religion and then come back out and drift back in. The other big piece for me was wrestling with culture. And I think one of the biggest eye-opening moments was that I was a foreign exchange student. I moved to France and spent just a semester abroad. But I mean, it blew my mind wide open. And I'm now married to somebody who's not an American. And we go back every July and spend Julys in Germany. My husband's German. I actually met him when I was in high school during this time. So he actually also holds a piece of that part of my heart. He
Starting point is 00:09:20 remembers what I was wrestling with back then, which I find very bonding. And then I also studied political science when I was in college. And I studied political science as somebody who was not political. So it wasn't that I was reading the newspaper every day. I went into it thinking, how could I not be reading the newspaper every day? I need to study political science because I feel like this is such an area of lack for me that I haven't been actually understanding how this culture has been shaped and how we're governing together and what this collective common good means. And I studied, you know, political theory and international relations. So kind of geeked out on that for a while. And then did the classic thing where after school, you have to find a job. And coming out as a poli-sci major, which by I'm raising my hand, I was one as well. Okay. Although mine was much less intentional. Mine was basically,
Starting point is 00:10:21 I can't figure out anything else. This looks good. Right. Yeah. No, mine was intentional because I thought, well, I need to be well-rounded. And then I moved up to the Bay Area from Southern California. And I got the first job I could find with no thought. I just, like, I need to make money. I worked for a publishing company and then quickly moved into tech. I had a successful tech career. I sort of, you know, during that first boom, I was kind of making money hand over fist. But money was not the spirituality for me. And I know that it is for some people, but it wasn't.
Starting point is 00:10:58 So I had a, my grandmother got really sick. I went and spent some time with her. And I realized after spending a couple of weeks, I'm like, huh, I'm not going to go back to work. I went and spent some time with her. And I realized after spending a couple of weeks, I'm like, huh, I'm not going to go back to work. I'm going to take this big bonus check and travel around the world. So instead of buying a car and a house, I just quit. Were you surprised at yourself or was it, did you kind of feel something bubbling for a while? I think in that moment, I was pretty surprised. I was pretty surprised because I was classic overachiever, classic type A, you know, had to succeed at all costs. I was not, you know, taking care of my body. I was totally living in my brain. The idea of having
Starting point is 00:11:42 a body just, I didn't understand what it meant to have a body. I just would push it to its limits. You know, I'd go for a six mile run and then forget to drink water for three days. You know, I'd lose a bunch of weight because I just didn't notice that I was losing a bunch of weight from stress. Right. And so that was a huge journey. So it seemed like travel, as I reflect on this with you now, has been probably the biggest shift producer for me because it's in the meeting of different people that I always seem to open up which I'm learning something about myself by talking to you right now that's the way for me to actually access my heart is when I sort of shift my perspective So that the world as I know it is challenged in every way.
Starting point is 00:12:27 So I was in Indonesia and I was doing a like six week and I did not meditate. I did not do yoga. I still joke with friends, yoga is hard for me because it makes me really angry. And all my friends laugh. They said, that's probably because it makes me really angry. And all my friends laughed. They said, that's probably because you need to do it. You've got some stuff stored in your muscles. By the way, as somebody who taught yoga for seven years, that's not unusual.
Starting point is 00:12:53 So the full spectrum of emo diversity within a 90-minute yoga asana class. Yeah, I've been on so many yoga retreats and not gone to yoga classes and my girlfriends will go, why aren't you going with us to the class? Because I'm going to get really angry. Right. It's like, you know, I'm actually pretty good right now. And if I go do yoga, I'm going to be pissed off the rest of the day. And look, it unlocks something different for all of us. Well, you know, it was really great. So I was on this trip and I loved that we were, so I was actually in Bali the year before
Starting point is 00:13:30 I realized Elizabeth Gilbert was in Bali. So I, rather than eat, pray, love, I was doing pray, surf, drink is what I did. I took my, I took up surfing during this time. So I surfed every single day for that year. I brought my surfboard with me on this journey, which I might not do again. That was quite something to carry a surfboard around for a year. But we were in the volcano tops in Bali, and I didn't even know that there was a big city park because they kind of shuffled us off to these remote areas. And I was on this tour with senior citizens,
Starting point is 00:14:05 with women that were in their 70s and 80s. And I was the only youngster. And there was something really important about that shift as well. And so they had us do a different kind of yoga where it was for older people that don't have a lot of mobility anymore. And it was gentle enough and subtle enough that I could notice. And that's like the next moment. So the first moment is that conversation with Jim in high school. And then this one moment where I'm sitting there and this woman asked me to squeeze my hands
Starting point is 00:14:37 really tight like this and hold it for two minutes and then let go. And what did you notice? And I just started tearing up because I'm like, I have a body and I have been abusing this body for years. I still feel a little verklempt as I say that right now. You know, I went back home and I had been in therapy with somebody that was really a kind of analytic therapist. And I switched to a new therapist that worked through the body. And it changed me, right? And here I'm surfing as well, you know, and suddenly my surfing was different because now I'm really enjoying, well, what does it mean to be in my body while I'm paddling into that wave, right? And what does it mean to sort of be one with the wave? It was just a really cool moment for me. I had to come back and get a job, but I knew when I went
Starting point is 00:15:34 back into tech, I'm like, this is not going to last. I'm going to be here as long as I can, but then I'm going to do something different. It's interesting that, because I have a number of friends who have turned to surfing and even become surfers because they were struggling deeply and emotionally, and that became their therapy. And that's the mechanism that brought them back into their body and let them feel again and let them reconnect with movement and breath. It's interesting that for you there was sort of like this one other thing
Starting point is 00:16:02 that had to fall into place to make that connection to a physical activity that you were already doing. But once like it clicked, everything changed. Yeah, it was crazy too once that clicked because I would start having weird relationships with animals would come towards me once I was embodied. So one day I was surfing with this buddy of mine in Australia and he's like, did you notice this pot of dolphins has been hanging out with us all day? I said, yeah, kind of cool, huh? And I kept having experiences like that. And I, I, I surmise that it's because I was more embodied. And I have to ask you in a moment like that, because you have this really interesting connection to the practical and the spiritual in a moment like that, where you're out there in the water
Starting point is 00:16:43 and you're on your boards and there's a pod of dolphins that's kind of surrounding you, do you feel like, okay, so this just happens to be an interesting sort of like, you know, experience physically? Or are you like, there's something spiritual happening here? I didn't in that moment. But this was on that trip that I was telling you about. And it kept happening to me. And a guy friend of mine that I was telling you about. And it kept happening to me. And a guy friend of mine that I was traveling through New Zealand with, he and I would go for a long run every evening together. And he said, did you notice how the animals, the little sheep, run along the fence with you? I said, well, they're baby sheep.
Starting point is 00:17:20 They're probably doing that with you. He goes, no, they don't do that with me. I said, oh, you're making it up. Come on. So one day we're on this other run and way off in the distance, there's this black horse. And I still tell this story and I still don't know if I believe it, but he's, he put his hands up in the air. He's like, see, and this horse came running at a full gallop. I'd say about 800 meters away, and then stops with his neck over the fence right in front of me where I was running. And he looks at me and goes, do you get it now? And then it started to become a joke.
Starting point is 00:17:55 So then we'd see animals and he'd say, I'm going to put you out there by the fence and see if they come over. And so it became this joke. I think we all have this capacity. I think that there was something about surfing every day and I did take up meditation. And I think there was something just so clean about my energy that I was like an animal. I just, there was no, there was no motive, but connection. That's it. That's all that was going on. Call that spiritual.
Starting point is 00:18:27 It's that spiritual when we're so deeply connected, when I'm so deeply connected. But have I felt that way since? In moments. In moments. But that was the longest I'd ever had a sustained experience of that. Yeah, it's so interesting. I think sometimes when, if you're fortunate enough to experience a moment or a window like that, and then it goes away, I found that so many of us end up spending so much of our time chasing the next opportunity for it. So on the one hand, you know,
Starting point is 00:19:00 a certain amount of spiritual aspiration, I think is a good thing. It keeps us doing the work. On the other hand, I think there's a risk of us forsaking where we are and what's graceful and what's present and what our gifts are right here and now in the name of the next hit of that transcendent moment or experience. Yeah. You know what? I'm so happy that you said that because this is something that is going on right now sort of spiritually in our culture. I feel like there's a real, there's so much pain happening. And I think that spirituality quickly becomes co-opted to transcend our pain. And actually, I think the beauty is in the pain. I'm not saying a kind of wallowing and sort of embracing kind of a victim stance, but I find that when I am the most deeply in my heart, it's when I am the most totally willing to accept the pain that I am experiencing in this moment. And I can't tell you how many times I have been in contact with folks that are deeply spiritual and felt really missed by them because I felt like there was a
Starting point is 00:20:14 wish that they had that I would not be experiencing my pain. They really wanted me to be, I hesitate to say this word because I think it's a little judgy, but it's a psychological term. They wanted me to dissociate with them into the bliss. And for me, you know, my spiritual, I have a spiritual teacher and she said, she calls me a bottom dweller. She said, you really like the dark feelings. You know, she said, you really want to, and I guess if there was any sort of drumbeat that I beat, it's that I want there to be room for hard feelings. And that if we all developed a little more stamina to experience what's difficult inside of ourselves with a lot more compassion, we can then also understand and empathize with what's difficult outside of ourselves with a lot more compassion, and maybe make some changes sort of collectively in our society that need to be made. But we shy away from the dark. And I don't, I kind of like it. You know, so when you brought up the dolphins and the blitz, that was nice.
Starting point is 00:21:26 But I probably would recognize the spirituality in the moment when I'm feeling desperate because I'm terrified of something. Those are the moments I really feel it. I agree. I mean, my experience is similar in my sort of lens. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun.
Starting point is 00:21:48 On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot.
Starting point is 00:21:57 Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.
Starting point is 00:22:16 The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Wouldn't it be great if you could have nutritious, Instagram-worthy meals every day without having to hit the farmer's market and chop up a million fruits and veggies? Well, now you can get all your superfoods super fast with Daily Harvest. Daily Harvest sends superfood smoothies
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Starting point is 00:23:03 have a delicious smoothie or bowl without having to shop, it just makes my life yummier, healthier, and easier. So go to daily-harvest.com and enter the promo code goodlife to get three items free in your first box. That's promo code goodlife for three free Daily Harvest cups at daily-harvest.com. That's daily-harvest.com. That's daily-harvest.com. We recently had Julie Payot in here. I had a beautiful conversation. And she shared how essentially her and her husband went through this seven-year window with four kids and a house in Malibu.
Starting point is 00:23:40 And they were living hand to mouth and it was a very dark hour and they were brought to their knees over and over and over. And she views this as like the blessing, like this, if you have like a blessing of having a moment of grace like this in your life. And I was like, how interesting to view that as like the biggest gift. And she said, you know, like, I think she used the phrase, you know, like a moment of grace and I said, how would you define that? She said, I think she used the phrase, like a moment of grace. And I said, how would you define that? She said, being brought to your knees. And to look at that moment as a moment of possibility rather than a moment of pure devastation with no possibility is so unique.
Starting point is 00:24:20 But I think if you can get there so powerful, so few people have that lens. So I'm wondering why you think that is? Well, I mean, you and I were talking about some interesting topics beforehand. I think that I have a certain privilege that allows me to get there, right? I mean, I think this is where some social justice conversations come in. Safety has to be there. So in the middle of whatever's hard, if you can't also trust that you could make yourself safe, it becomes very difficult to find your way to that grace because your nervous system really gets in on the action. I am a psychotherapist, so I think about these nerdy things. And one of the things that I think about a lot is what happens in the nervous system when we don't feel safe, right? Relationally, racially, financially, it becomes a real project to regulate our nervous system so that we could come to that moment of grace. And so this is when I think meditation and mindfulness practices are really
Starting point is 00:25:25 helpful, not to bliss out into the ether, but to really be able to regulate ourselves so that we can come to a place of calm, right? So that we can then find the grace, but then it's also a call to, for all of us to also regulate collectively. It's like, what are we not creating in society so other people can feel safe? What about people that are being traumatized regularly and they don't have that opportunity? So I think about that, that for some people, they have certain privileges that allow them
Starting point is 00:26:01 to regulate themselves to feel safe, to then find their way to grace, and other people don't. So that's how I think about it. Yeah. No, it's such a really powerful lens and it makes you really think, huh. It makes me think about, okay, so my experience is not, it's like you said, I come from a place of, you know, clear privilege and clear, you know, zone of safety or realm of safety that is unique. Yeah. Let's jump back into sort of your story. So you end up in Silicon Valley and flourishing career, doing big things, conversation with your grandmother kind of awakens you to the fact that,
Starting point is 00:26:41 maybe this isn't it. You go on your walkabout. How do you come back and why and where? Yeah, I mean, I came back and had to get a job to make money. But quickly, quickly, I still had that animal magnetism. And I'm like, this isn't going to be doing software partnerships. I have to do something else. And so I quit and went to graduate school to become a psychotherapist. Literally made the decision in six weeks time. Just did it. I sold my nice car and got an old used pickup truck. I got rid of my nice stuff. I mean, I completely sacrificed a lot of material wealth to make this shift. I got roommates.
Starting point is 00:27:29 I hadn't had roommates in seven years. And I had never been happier. And then I proceeded to spend the next three years of my life putting my psyche through a meat grinder. I tell people, I'm like, man, at least the program I went to, which was deeply embedded in Eastern philosophy, I mean, you just don't know what's going to come out the other side. So it was quite a journey. And then in the middle of that, I reconnected with my husband and fell in love, like in a massive way. So that was happening too. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:27:58 How powerful too to reconnect with somebody who you know in high school at that moment. And when you're sort of like smack in the middle of a deep evolution and have that still work. Yeah, I think with him in particular, even when I was young, I think what I, well, this is gonna make me feel sweet about my sweetie, but he's a very heart-centered guy. You know, if anything, he has greater capacity to be relational than I do. And I've done all this training and he's done none of it, right?
Starting point is 00:28:31 He's just sweet. He's, you know, and I'm really close to his family and I think his family is really sweet, which is why we go spend the summers with them. But he saw me then and he sees me now. He can say these things to me without the psychobabble because I love to get in my head and use all the psychobabble. And he'll just say this simple little thing.
Starting point is 00:28:52 I'll be wrestling with something and feeling really down and doubting myself. And a few months ago, he said this thing to me. He said, you know, I just feel really sad to see you not loving yourself right here. He says stuff like that. He says stuff like that. Who says stuff like that? My husband does. Oh, my God. That is a serious keeper.
Starting point is 00:29:13 Yeah. He's a good, he's, yeah. Yeah, he is. As you're reconnecting with him and going through your own metamorphosis, do you have a sense for what you actually want to do once you enter the world of therapy? Like is a fire being lit? No, I did this really weird thing, which is when I entered graduate school, I surrendered to needing to know. I surrendered to even if I was going to become a therapist. I just, I'm like, maybe I'll go back into tech. I don't know. But for right now, this feels like the right thing to be doing.
Starting point is 00:29:47 So along the way, you know, people may not understand what therapists ultimately have to go through to become a therapist. It's a lot of postgraduate training. You get the graduate degree, and then I had to spend six and a half years interning under basically like a mentorship. It's a long time, right? And it was in those six and a half years that I started to discover that I really like this. I really like doing this. And along the way, I discovered that I really like working with couples. That's probably not a surprise. I joke because I'm like, I think I've
Starting point is 00:30:25 been a couples therapist since I was four. Right. So I think it's healing for me, right, to sort of be in process with folks in that way. Because it's so, you know, I'd said, what seems to really make me come alive is to constantly have my perspective shifted. And I think the way I come to this work is that I am not the knower, I'm a collaborator. And I have some training about things like the brain and things like the nervous system and things about sort of relational attachment and the ways that we are negotiating closeness and distance.
Starting point is 00:31:03 But I really still feel shaken up every time I work with folks because they make me think about my own life, right? I like to share power in the room with my clients. I'm not holding the knower role, if that makes sense. I want to empower them to see if they can tell me what they know and what they want. And that still lights me up. So I still do it. Somewhere along the way, though, another project starts to emerge for you. Yes. Take me there.
Starting point is 00:31:38 Yeah, I mean, there was a succession of gun violence that really started it for me. I think Sandy Hook was huge for me. People don't know. Somebody asked me the other day. They didn't know what Sandy Hook was when I was explaining this don't know. Somebody asked me the other day. They didn't know what Sandy Hook was when I was explaining this to them. I thought it was surprising. But there was an elementary school that had gun violence, and a lot of kids died. And because I grew up in the church, it was really disturbing when parishioners and prayers at the church were shot. And then the Trayvon Martin case.
Starting point is 00:32:07 I'm like, wait a minute. This is how this is turning out? And I could not make sense of it. There was nothing in my brain that could make sense of it. And I live in the San Francisco Bay Area now. And I have a lot of really smart colleagues who are super active in social justice, but it can get really strident fast, those conversations. And I didn't like the way those conversations were going down. Just felt dogmatic again. I'm like, yes, I want to hear what you have to say because I have so much to learn. And this isn't the answer for me to sit and read stuff. So I started, it really started as a fantasy. I can't say that there was any plan or intellectual idea, but I kept having these daydreams about fitting my psychotherapy chair in the elevator of my building and pushing it down on the street. And sitting there is kind of an act of protest in a way, but not a protest where I was doing the speaking,
Starting point is 00:33:09 but an act of protest where I was listening, kind of a what's going on here moment. And it really took over my body. It started to become an obsession. It lasted for a while. And then I was in a writer's's community and I put it out there to some of the other therapists in my writer's community and one of them said oh I would love to do that let's do it and so we organized together to get 28 of our colleagues who were
Starting point is 00:33:38 all therapists I think we had one person at the time that was not a therapist and we all put our chairs out on the street on the same day in 14 different locations across the city. And it was interesting. It was profound. It's weird going back to that first day because I've learned so much. But needless to say, it's two and a half years later and I'm still doing this. I'm still sitting on the sidewalk listening to people. I want to know more about the first day. Yeah. You go out on the sidewalk. Tell me exactly what does this look like? Yeah. Well, at that time, we went out in smaller teams. So it was me and another therapist. It's a little strange because I'd never met her before. She didn't come to the, we did a listener training in preparation. She didn't make it to that. So I'm meeting her for the first time.
Starting point is 00:34:26 And we were in smaller teams than we do now. And I was super anxious, right? Moreover, an NPR journalist comes and is like, hey, can I mic you? And I'm like, okay, I don't even know what I'm doing. And then you're going to do this too? And what it was like was I really got a sense of what it must be like for a client to come to see a psychotherapist because I was inviting people to come sit. I was the vulnerable one inviting people to come talk to me and getting rejected left and right.
Starting point is 00:34:56 And you literally just have like two chairs on a sidewalk. Two chairs on a sidewalk. One person sits and listens. And then we always have one person that's kind of a space holder and a greeter that says, hey, would you like to be listened to today? We're a community listening project. And we're not selling anything. You don't even have to tell us your name. So I was the greeter, and Abby was sitting down, and she was the first listener. And so many people would avoid eye contact. They didn't want to look at me. Because I'm imagining that in New York, and I don't want to talk about this because you just, as we sit here, you're literally just launching in New York. But in New York, I mean,
Starting point is 00:35:35 you get approached all, you know, like you walk down any given street and your default is, I don't, not even know, but for so many, you get into a mode where your default is, I don't see you. And if somebody actively stands in front of you and tries to talk to you, your blinders are up. So I'm so curious what it's like to be you in that moment, wanting with all of your heart to be of service, and having people just one after another after another flat reject you? Humbling. Really humbling.
Starting point is 00:36:09 It really taught me the fine art of surrender. Because if I get frustrated or have an expectation, then suddenly now that's about me, that they need to come sit down so that I feel efficacious in some way. And that's BS, right? So I really have to confront so much inside myself every time, every single time when people aren't taking us up on the offer. I'm like, the offer stands whether people take me up on it or not. And that generosity of spirit, I have to hold regardless. Otherwise,
Starting point is 00:36:46 that entire interaction is now no longer about what I'm offering. It's about me feeling like a good person who's helping someone. We get into that a lot in this culture where we want to help people. And I'm like, yes. But we have to be careful when the helperness is about us needing to somehow feel a value. Brene Brown talks, she uses this phrase that I love called hustling for worthiness. And I'm like, we are not hustling for worthiness. Yeah. We want, we want recognition for our service to make us whole. Yeah. It doesn't work.
Starting point is 00:37:22 And don't get me wrong. I am sure that I've dipped into it. Raising my hand also, I'm sure we all have. But that's the reason why I keep doing this two and a half years later is, you know, I mean, one of the things I'll say that I like the most about myself is that I do like to look at hard stuff in myself. I told you I was a bottom dweller. And so for me, I'm really honest with myself about what's coming up for me in this project. You know, when I'm like, oh, you must really not be feeling worthy because you're kind of needing to be the helper, needing to be seen in a certain way. Like, what's that about? Or I'll notice myself wanting to fix it for the person. I'm like,
Starting point is 00:38:03 hey, so what's that about? You need to seem sort of like the knower, efficacious. What if you were to meet that person when you're listening in this way that you fundamentally believe that they have all the answers? And I figured out that my fixer, when I get into fix-it mode, is my way of keeping distance from people. It's how I protect myself from vulnerability. Yeah, I'm sure that there can be plenty of people listening right now and be like, huh, how about that? Right?
Starting point is 00:38:32 I'm thinking about that for myself right now also. Tell me about the first person who said yes. Well, the first person who said yes was a young woman who was kind of intense, actually. She was living on the street, and she'd only been in San Francisco two days. She moved out to San Francisco. She was a lesbian woman who met somebody online, came out here on a whim to be with this girl. When she showed up, the girl said, I want nothing to do with you.
Starting point is 00:39:06 And so she'd been sleeping on the street. And I listened to her some more. And it turns out that she's diagnosed with bipolar one. Bipolar one, for folks that don't know, it really is one of those psychological conditions that's biochemical. So you really do have to be medicated. It's nothing that it's not, you know, coming from your background or your history. And so immediately I thought, ooh, bipolar one, she really needs to be on her medication. Like this is not safe because she'll swing from hypermania to extreme depression. And she was on the street in a city that she did not know. So I'm like, where are you sleeping?
Starting point is 00:39:42 You know, trying to see if she knew even the places to go where she'd be safe. So in that instance, we do carry around postcards with resources where people can go. So I actually sent her to an acute care clinic to get some medication and they would then help her find a place to sleep. That one was interesting because it wasn't quite that same stance of relational presence. There was really something to do. There was an intervention that did need to happen. Yeah.
Starting point is 00:40:11 How comfortable did you feel doing that? I felt it taught me a lot about the project. I hope that everybody else knew to refer people out, that people out that, you know, they were trained enough. It's not just going to be listening. Like there may be intervention type of scenarios that pop up. Yeah. So I felt good. I felt glad that she stumbled upon me, you know, because who knows what would have happened to her on the street.
Starting point is 00:40:40 But the second one was the one that was really profound that first day. Another guy bipolar disorder for 15 years and I've been hiding it from everyone. And I've been hospitalized three times. I have to be medicated my whole life. And I just wanted to tell someone and I wanted to be out about it. And it was really beautiful to just, he wanted to be witnessed. He wanted something that had gone unwitnessed to be witnessed, to liberate himself, to be more fully himself in some way. And what a privilege for me, right? And I already get to do that in my day job, right? But to have this stranger need that and want that was really profound for me. Yeah. I mean, I'm curious how you receive that or how you experience that differently than the many people that you're in relationship with, you know, as part of your day job, you know, all day, every day, like how is it different for you? You know, as much as I might have the intention as a psychotherapist to step out of the role of the person that is fixing or performing in some way, the reality is there's
Starting point is 00:42:14 an exchange of money happening. Okay. So I am being paid for a service to hold a particular clinical skill. When I'm out on the street, I receive it differently because I am just me as a human. And so removing that layer has me take it in differently. You know, I remember when I'd said earlier, fixing, right, is a way that I can sort of protect against some vulnerability, it's more vulnerable to sit out there. It's just more vulnerable. I'm just closer in the contact, you know? And it's definitely carried back into my therapy work because then I realize, ooh, there are a lot of times
Starting point is 00:42:59 that I'm completely hiding behind my role as a therapist to not come close to my clients, right? They both support each other. Both gigs support each other. So you've been doing this two and a half years now. Now there are a larger group of you who are going out there and doing it more regularly. So with that experience now, what is sort of like the bigger observations about that you would make from it about the nature of what comes up, the power of being, you know, witnessed and also maybe where the conversation and the needs are moving? The first thing that I've become aware of is how hyper individualistic we are in our society. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot if we need them. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.
Starting point is 00:44:09 It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous
Starting point is 00:44:30 generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. And, you know, I've kind of gotten a little bit nerdy thinking about this in psychology. So there's been some, you know, you think about Dan Siegel's work. And every year I go to the Interpersonal Neurobiology Conference and I agree with him fundamentally on something. You know, 20 years, 30 years, 40. Oh, my gosh, I'm getting older. You know, some of Margaret Mahler's theories around separation individuation said that, you know, the infant is crawling away from the mother at a certain time as a natural part of their development. But actually what we're now
Starting point is 00:45:19 discovering is now the infant isn't crawling away from mom to go be alone. The infant is crawling away from mom to go find more connections. That we are feeling machines that think. We are relating machines that think. But we live our lives as if we're thinking machines who just happen to feel. So we've really got it backwards. Moreover, we prize people that pull themselves up independently by their bootstraps,
Starting point is 00:45:53 but we should be prizing people that know how to connect, right? There is irrefutable evidence that we are wired this way, and yet we prize this individualization, this individualism. And then you add to that this kind of, we're intellectualized. I talked about not being in my body. So part of this hyper individualism is that we also are hyper intellectual. Is that something that you see a lot in these conversations? Like people living from the head up? Oh, yeah. Yeah, I bet.
Starting point is 00:46:27 I mean, it's, I had this, I'll tell you this story. I had a really cool listening session two weeks ago on the streets of San Francisco. And I'm just getting better at my listening, right? And it was this young guy, tech guy, really smart. And he got a job, moved out here, works alone in an office, even though he manages a bunch of people's having discord with his boss. But ultimately, the fundamental thing he was saying was, I feel lonely, came out here, thought this was going to
Starting point is 00:46:55 be a great job. It's not a great job. And I'm alone doing it. As he's talking, there are moments where he comes out and he's in his feeling body and he makes contact with me in the eyes and he can really take me in right there. And our connection is deepening him. He even cried a few times, had tears coming down his face. And then the vulnerability would become a little too much for him. And he would quickly go back into this intellectualizing analysis of his experience. And then what would happen inside of me is that I would lean away too, because I'd get a little bored. Or probably deeper level, I felt a little rejected, like, oh, we just had this sweet moment together, and then you just appeared. And I'm tracking all that inside him. I'm like, okay, wait, wait, wait. He's just protecting himself.
Starting point is 00:47:46 Don't go anywhere, Tracy. Stay right there. Stay forward in the connection. Don't smother him, but stay there. So all I did is I ignored everything that he was saying. Well, not totally ignored, but I just looked at his face and I decided I'm just going to discover what's absolutely sweet about his face. And I just kept looking at him with this gaze of love, really. I just stayed there. And then he would come back with his eyes to see if I was still there with him, right? And he would get so touched again that I hadn't left, even though he had left. And that moment of listening on the sidewalk a few weeks ago, I'm still really integrating. I can see it. Just, I mean, as you told that story, I can see it physically in you. Yeah. Because what I thought is, it's going to tear me up.
Starting point is 00:48:41 We're doing that all the time, huh? We're looking at our eyes to see, is the other person there with me? Are they here? Are they with me? And then we get a little nervous, depending on whatever, however we're shaped. And then we leave the connection. But when we come back, we want to know the person's still there. And I do too. I mean, I look at my own eyes looking for that connection right who's there i get hurt all the time by that i long
Starting point is 00:49:12 for connection the same stuff everybody longs for so those this growth just keeps me keeps me going but i i see us prizing this individualism in a way but what we're most longing for is this connection and then you add in this piece around tech I think tech has huge potential for connection but at the same time we're using our left brain. And we're really developing sort of these left brain, I would say verbal capacities that are based on words. And yet when we're listening to people, 55% of what's coming across is happening non-verbally. And then 30% is happening in tone. But when you just are on a text machine device, you miss all that. So you're actually taking that in through your left brain, overdeveloping those capacities, underdeveloping the right brain capacities, which is, you know, as Dan Sie on ourselves from that left brain capacity, perhaps we're reflecting on ourselves at a much more superficial level.
Starting point is 00:50:33 That it's actually in relationship with other people that we know ourselves. It's by lighting up that right brain. It's by lighting up those moments of connection that we think deeply about spirituality, about meaning, about purpose, about transcendence, about pain, about the common good, about community. I don't know that keeping everything at this text level helps us develop what our brains are really wired to do, which is connect deeply so that it's in the connection that we know our soul. It's in the connection that we know our soul. I'll say it one more time. It's in the connection that we know our soul. And that's why I keep doing this because I am knowing my soul by being in connection. And the last piece I'll say is I am becoming radically aware of my own implicit bias as I sit out on the street.
Starting point is 00:51:34 I have become radically aware of my own internalized prejudice. And I don't blame or shame myself. The brain is wired to tribe. We're wired to notice what's different. But the reality is we live in a multicultural society, and yet we're still living in groups that look just like us. And what's been so beautiful for me about this project is that it has changed my brain around my own implicit bias. And so now I'm really interested in doing impact studies on it because I'm like, oh, this could be a thing, right? I took my first team from Google out to the street a few weeks ago. I'm like, ah, I want to do more of this. To take folks that maybe don't get exposed to a lot of different kinds of people and have them develop this practice of listening to people radically different than they are right and i i just walk around my community so different
Starting point is 00:52:32 i don't see a person of color and make all kinds of assumptions i say hi hey how's your day going you know and they're still there they're still more i mean we're just riddled with bias and that's not our fault our you know we're good students of our privilege. Right. And we've got this brain that likes to categorize people. I think the most exciting thing is I feel more okay with myself because then I get to meet all these different parts of myself I'm a pretty self-critical person and doing this project has helped me develop compassion for myself more because all these parts of all these people represent parts of me hey guys so I'm kind of breaking the third wall here. I'm speaking to you, our listener. So as I was having this conversation with Tracy, something a little bit interesting happened. I started to sense that the entire story wasn't being told. And in fact, I learned
Starting point is 00:53:39 after the fact that that was the reality. A few days later, I got this email from Tracy, which I'm sharing with you now with her permission. Hey, Jonathan. So I was talking with someone about our interview and I said, he kept asking me about spiritual awakening and I went on a tangent about my travel. I felt a remnant of stirring and got clear and wanted to share something I ask you to keep in confidence. You can share it with others. It is meant to be shared with. Why share this with you now? Because I feel called to. So here goes. After George Bush was elected the second time, several years after my traveling odyssey, you and I talked about. My being had a counter response to the devastation and hatred that came alive in San Francisco. The day after the election, I was walking around San Francisco like a neon love balloon. And I'm a kind but also curmudgeonly neurotic, so it was a bit weird.
Starting point is 00:54:39 I took this embodied, expansive love ball that I was into my therapist's office a few hours later and proceeded to enter into an ecstatic state of utter calm and peace. A fireball of love energy descended into the room and a message of love poured through me for the entire hour. It wasn't mine. It was transcendent and universal. I was just a conduit. To my right was this beautiful female lion. I asked her who she was. She said she was my soul, my essence that had been with me for many lifetimes. And the rest was the collective. It reminds me of how Gary Zukav describes it. I opened my eyes and my therapist had tears streaming down her face. All she said was, thank you. There is no charge for this session.
Starting point is 00:55:33 Sidewalk Talk has become the purest expression of that experience. I recapture tastes, some days a full meal, of that out there on the sidewalk. So I keep doing this project because for me, it is following the mothership or living the direction of my soul's calling or purpose. It heals part of me and my personality while also being deeper transpersonal soul work. Sharing this is incredibly challenging. I myself have so much disdain for the woo-woo, for gurus, for the ways in which my own ego would like to possess this experience. So until I can sort out these feelings, I don't go on podcasts or interviews and share it, but I do share it privately. And I couldn't get you out of my mind and felt I was meant to share. May you be gifted
Starting point is 00:56:27 some fireball of love energy and may I plug into it today. So I received that email from Tracy in confidence and I thought about it because in a really weird way, I knew it was coming. So I wrote back to Tracy and here's what I wrote to her. Hey, Tracy, thanks for sharing this. So it may sound equally weird to say this, but I know. Well, I didn't know the details, but had a pretty strong sense there was a gap in the story. And it was some kind of out there kind of awakening experience that you might not have been comfy sharing. So thanks for filling it in for me. Also, I definitely invite you to challenge your concerns about how your spiritual inciting incident would land, both for others and for you.
Starting point is 00:57:17 For those who feel that same gap in the story that I picked up, it might actually be the piece that turns your inciting incident into a much stronger call for them. It tells them there's something bigger at work. And on your question about whether you could stand in that story and still allow your ego to take a back seat, while we see many examples of the opposite, those are not preordained outcomes. They're choices, and I'm not feeling like your quest to listen, is coming from a place of any more ego gratification than so many others who simply want to be of service. It's all about your intention. So that got sent out. And I waited. And I expected nothing more. And I thought this would be kept in confidence. But something in me hoped. And not long after, I got a reply. And Tracy shared
Starting point is 00:58:08 with me in her words, the message comes alive in me each time I tell someone. And God knows we need some fireball love right now. Shit, the world is rough right now. A resounding speak up has been the invitation to me. So after sitting with it a bit more, and the impact telling the story is having on me right now, it does feel right. I am courageous enough to say this. And maybe the skepticism of it all will be a welcome relief to folks who, like me, might not be as seeking of this kind of experience. So I wanted to share that with you guys because it fills in the gap in the story here that I sensed as I had written to Tracy. I just sensed sitting across from her
Starting point is 00:58:56 there was something much bigger going on. But also as maybe a little bit of inspiration and an invitation to you to trust that if you are driven by experiencing a bigger story that maybe you don't entirely understand, but you know, it's powerful to explore being a little bit vulnerable and sharing, sharing that story so that others might be inspired by it, experience it. And also because it is very likely that just as I sensed a gap in Tracy's story, as we were in conversation, others speaking with you, when you are in the process of trying to convey to them the depth of meaning of something that you're working on. But withholding something
Starting point is 00:59:45 so deeply ingrained out of fear of being judged, they too will very likely sense that gap and resist buying into and participating and maybe helping you and collaborating with you to bring this magical quest to life. So anyway, this has been an unusual aside. And I'm so grateful to Tracy for the exchange and for allowing me to share this deeper, you know, sort of backstory. We're going to dive back into the conversation right now, informed by a bit more. Here we go. Yeah, I'm realizing we've actually never actually stated the name of this whole, you know, project that you're building now. Yeah.
Starting point is 01:00:26 So it's called Sidewalk Talk. And, you know, I'm committed for everybody listening. You know, this is not a profit-earning project. This is a community-building project. So my deepest wish is that folks would go online and volunteer because I think it's a radical way to change community and change the conversations that we've been having in this country and all over the world because we're global now. We have chapters in Malaysia and South Africa
Starting point is 01:00:52 and Portugal and the UK and just got a call from the Netherlands and Nepal are gonna start one. So exciting. So it's getting really big. Yeah. Do people need any particular qualification to be a listener? No.
Starting point is 01:01:07 So they do have to fill out a liability release, and then they do take a training. They take an online training, and then the city leader will also have an in-person training. But other than that, that's it. Yeah. I mean, what a powerful opportunity also to, number one, be out there in some way being of service. But clearly from what you've shared about your experience as the listener, what a powerful opportunity also for you to just experience your own awakening, your own growth, your own exposure of implicit bias and views and awakening both to the world around you and within you. Absolutely.
Starting point is 01:01:45 Yeah. I think it's more transformational for the listener in the end. The website is sidewalk-talk.org. Some people can't find it. Somebody grab the non-dash version. Darn URL. Come out and volunteer. Yeah, it's so powerful.
Starting point is 01:02:02 It feels like also we're in this moment, the opportunity to simply share whatever is your reality in a given moment, whatever is your thought, whatever it is your question, especially if it's something where you're unsure of it, You're unsure of yourself. You feel like maybe you're not well enough informed, but you want to know and you want to have a conversation about something that maybe is around a topic or an area that's sensitive, that it feels like in our culture today, the places where it's okay to have that conversation and not come into it with a fixed vetted position to defend, but just to show up and say, I see this happening. I feel this happening. I honestly don't know how I feel about it. I want to learn. I want to learn from a place of just openness rather than judgment or shame or blame. Can we have the conversation? I feel like in the last really just few years that the places, the spaces, in a way I feel like made this country to a certain extent what it is, have largely vanished. And that there is only space for strong stances, defensible positions. see that also. And I wonder if you feel either explicitly or implicitly that in the conversations
Starting point is 01:03:26 that end up unfolding where somebody just sits and your job is to listen, that some of that emerges. Some of the complexity in our culture. Yeah. And some of the yearning for a space to be seen, be heard, and have a conversation without knowing where you stand and which way is up and having to say like, I choose this side. Yeah. You know, after the election, we did a bus tour doing this listening thing across the US in states where people were probably pretty politically different than we are in the San Francisco Bay Area. Twofold. Yes. people wanted a place where they could be held. He talked about holding people and making them feel safe in that unknown stance. And then oftentimes
Starting point is 01:04:14 it goes so much more deeply personal than just social. And I had this guy that had a Make America Great haddock on and came up and talked to me and he said, my wife of 30 years just left me last week. He didn't want to talk about politics. He wanted to talk about his heartache. And I thought, oh, that's, it's the bottom dweller feelings again. That's the way, that's where we start. We start there. We start there.
Starting point is 01:04:42 And then we can talk about all the other stuff. The other stuff is, again, distancing, right? We talk about the real heartaches. We go there. Or celebrations, but the real stuff. And then we come back to the communal stuff. That's my thought anyway. I might change on that, though, so don't hold me to it.
Starting point is 01:05:04 I'm still learning. We're all evolving beings, right? It feels like a good place for us to come full circle. So as we sit here, the name of this is Good Life Project. If I offer that phrase out to you to live a good life, what comes up? Absolutely connection. To really put it into the foreground in your own life. I put it into the foreground in my own life where I connect with my body and I prize and prioritize connecting with people around me. Absolutely. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.
Starting point is 01:05:40 Hey, thanks so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we've included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, be sure to click on the subscribe button in your listening app so you never miss an episode and then share the Good Life Project love with friends. Because when ideas become conversations that lead to action, that's when real change takes hold. See you next time. how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot him, we need him! Y'all need a pilot? Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,
Starting point is 01:06:36 making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple watch series 10 available for the first time in glossy jet black
Starting point is 01:06:51 aluminum compared to previous generations, iPhone tennis or later required charge time and actual results will vary.

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