Good Life Project - Two Cultures, One World | Tarek Mounib

Episode Date: December 12, 2019

Tech-founder turned filmmaker, Tarek Mounib, had a crazy thought: what would happen if you brought together people from two radically different cultures, often presented by politicians and media as mutually hostile, to get to know each other in an intimate setting, as human beings…then filmed it all, then hoped for the best?That’s exactly what he did in his cultural-experiment turned documentary, Free Trip to Egypt. Mounib traveled the U.S. where he'd eventually bring together a group of Americans fearful of Islam, but willing to confront their own feelings and assumptions, for an all-expense-paid trip to Egypt, where they would spend their days with Egyptian counterparts. What happened next was more than Tarek could have ever hoped for — a remarkable sojourn of revelation, self-discovery connection for the participants, the filmmakers, and the viewer alike. And Tarek’s just getting started. Join us today to hear the fascinating background story of his work and his new project, the #PledgeToListen campaign.-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today, Tarek Ben-Nib, was living in Switzerland, originally born in Canada, and his parents actually of Egyptian descent. And growing up and living and really being comfortable in a lot of different cultures led him to really start to be concerned about what he perceived as so much hatred and so much vitriol and so much othering and lack of the ability to see the humanity and other people in the world. And that kind of reached a fever pitch. And while he was living in Switzerland and Zurich, building his own companies, he decided to set aside a bunch of time and do something that

so many people thought was maybe even impossible, to go to the United States to find a group of Americans who really were concerned, were fearful, who had feelings about people, especially Islam, especially in the Middle East, that were not good, and then bring them to offer them a free trip to Egypt, where they would then be paired with people who were very often the exact opposite of them, and to film it and just see what happened without forcing any sort of educational agenda, but just to watch and see what unfolded as people discovered or didn't discover each other's shared humanity. The result was a documentary called Free Trip to Egypt, which is now circulating. Definitely check it out. We will link to it in the show notes. That was really incredibly powerful. So moving on so many different levels. So I had a chance to sit

down with Tarek today and talk not just about his background, but also about how his own life and his experiences have informed his lens on other people and how he certainly made the jump from Canada into Europe and what really motivated this entire adventure and also how it has changed him in a profound way and led to a continuing movement called the Pledge to Listen, which we dive into. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. We'll be right back. Don't shoot if we need them. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever,

making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary.

I think the most important thing, especially to my father, was the religion. So he really felt a strong attachment to Islam and Islamic values. So he really wanted to impart that specifically. And he felt Arabic was a part of learning about Islam. So I think that was more important to him than the general Egyptian culture, right? My mother was more into Egyptian and European culture and more open and less worried about what she would impart. Yeah. As a kid in Canada, were you in a community where Islam was sort of like largely represented or not so much. I'm curious how you experienced that. So in Halifax, I hardly had any Muslim friends.

And in the school, there weren't any Muslims. And so I felt like we were the only ones. And somehow the kids made you feel that as well, that you're different and stuff. I mean, our house got vandalized. They spray painted Paki on it and stuff like that. So early on, you kind of knew you were different. I felt kind of alone in that. We had a mosque in the neighboring city of Dartmouth that every now and then my dad would take us to. It wasn't really that we were part of a larger Muslim community. Yeah, I mean, on the one hand, it's got to be very, you know, a sense of othering. On the other hand, I wonder if also, were you curious about that at all? Did it sort of like

make you question the way that you were treated, the way that people treated others based on this one thing? Yeah. So I think as a kid, up until I was 17, I kind of knew I was a little bit different, but I didn't feel different. So Islam didn't really play a role in my life. And then I finished high school and I had a six-month free time before university started. So I actually went to Egypt and studied Arabic. And when I came back, I had more of a quest for my Egyptian Islamic identity. And then I actually researched and then I became quite the activist Muslim. So between the ages of

17 and mid-20s, I was quite religious. I really felt Islam was the way to your heart and to God. And I wanted to spread that. And I had speaking engagements and talking and spreading the word, basically. Yeah. So that would have been through college years also. Yeah, exactly. So it started towards the end of high school and really throughout my undergraduate. I was part of the Muslim Students Association, all that. And then when I started working a couple of years afterwards, I basically had like a crisis of faith and it all just kind of fell down. It all collapsed, my whole belief structure. And I didn't really believe in any religion. I thought everything was just, yeah, just man-made and all that stuff. And I became quite resentful. And then everything that I wasn't allowed to do, I tried.

I experimented. And that phase lasted a few years. And then I discovered this master's program at the University of Kent. And that was the study of mysticism and religious experience. And then I took a year off of work and I just dove into it. And I rediscovered a whole new perspective on religion and spirituality. So I developed a new respect for religions, all religions.

I felt a deeper sense of what Islam is as opposed to what I thought it was. And so, and ever since then, I think that's kind of my fundamental basis that what I learned then. So I'm someone who, yeah, feels an affinity towards all religions that I've studied. I don't feel one is better than the other. Objectively, I think one calls an individual more, it's more attractive and helps a single person, but I feel it's more like a language of relating to the divine. And just like you might be more fluent in English and someone else might be fluent in German. It doesn't mean German is better than

English or something like that. Yeah. It's so interesting when people begin to explore, from what I've seen, the more mystical offshoots of almost any faith-based tradition. And pretty much all of them have them. Right. Whether Sufism or Kabbalah, they've tended to be, at least from my fairly limited exposure, more expansive than a lot of the sort of like the more strictly dogmatic, but the less mystical elements of a lot of different traditions. Right. Absolutely. I think it's also because esoteric really looks within, talks about the heart, and the

heart is really a universal language. And we tend to forget sometimes when we're practicing a religion that it's all about opening your heart and being a better person. And yeah, so I think when we reconnect with that essence, it creates a peace within us and outside of us, right? And we become less hostile and judgmental, I feel. No, I'm right there with you. Kind of like at the end of the day, it comes down to love. Was there, you said you had a crisis. Was there something that happened that triggered the crisis?

I think I start to really feel a sense of isolation. I felt there was something different about me. And I felt that I was judging people. I wasn't connecting with people that weren't Muslim. And it just, there was a dissonance in the way I lived. And it just got bigger and bigger. It wasn't just one moment until I felt, no, I can't really live like this anymore. It doesn't feel right. And I remember there were a few key moments. One of the moments I remember was when I was visiting Italy. I was on a bus and the bus was driving around and we were just in traffic and it just stopped because of traffic in front of this church. And church door was open. And there was this monk who is offering his prayers

with such beautiful devotion. It just moved me, it touched me. And it was like, how could I position myself thinking that my religion is better than his, right? It just, so there were, that's one example. There were a few of those things that just happened in that year and just kind of blew me open.

Yeah, like small cracks in the door until finally just the whole thing swings. Yes. Yeah. You go from there to stepping back into a more expansive place also. What's happening with you in terms of where you are in the world

and how you're contributing to it? Right now? No, back then. Because you you head out from canada right right so so so basically i think you know i i graduated from from computer engineering that was my bachelor's okay so my master's was kind of like a holiday it was just kind of a sabbatical. I was working in the IT industry. I took a year off of work. So I was always just kind of in that IT industry and working and then going up the ranks of management and directing things. But I also felt I wanted to do something more fulfilling. So in parallel, I did my master's. I also took a year off of work afterwards and studied at the Jung Institute to immerse myself in psychological studies.

I did a lot of workshops. But that was always for my personal development. And it never manifested in the outer form for a number of years. Right. So that wasn't a part of your, quote, work. Exactly. Exactly. So that wasn't a part of your, quote, work. Exactly. Right. Exactly.

So interesting. A couple of years back, we had Dave Evans in here, who was one of the early guys at Apple and also one of the two guys that split off and founded Electronic Arts, a massive gaming company. Brilliant, brilliant in the technology world. And a number of years into that career, as a brilliant technologist,

he went back to get his, if I want to remember right, PhD in divinity. Oh, wow. Because he really felt like there was this thing that was not being included in the way that he was living his life and also contributing and working that he couldn't understand not being there. And he wanted to know a lot more about it. I'm curious whether you being immersed in the world of tech, whether you feel that that sort of well-defined, granular, sort of binary way of living a lot of your existence

was related to your desire to go and explore mysticism, to go and explore Jungian, and what are the essential parts of human nature? Yeah, I think maybe, I think we all kind of yearn for wholeness. And I think because of my engineering mind and my analytical mind, exactly what you're saying, it's this kind of binary way of thinking. And that was also the way I experienced religion in the beginning. So it's just kind of the aspect of how I came into the world and a certain type of thinking. And then I think, you know, being analytical and breaking things down, you want to experience more the

holistic way, the artistic way of seeing things, right? It's kind of left brain, right brain. If you're completely immersed in this analytical world, there is this yearning to feel the other part of you, right? And sometimes we just ignore it. And sometimes we immerse ourselves in it. And for me, it was really important. Like I really was called to explore arts and singing and spirituality and all these other things. And it was interesting because I thought at one point in time, I just want to drop technology and business and all that stuff. And then I realized, actually, no, though, it's so fun for me as well. It's not that it's wrong or bad. It's just missing. So now I love the fact that I'm able to combine both worlds somehow. Yeah. Before your most recent project, did you feel like you were able to then take the

more esoteric humanistic side and bring it back into technology in some way? Well, so I was always, I felt split and I always had the yearning to do that, right? And then the first element of finally moving towards that is I was looking for a space for my software company to buy. And we found a floor in Switzerland. So we purchased the floor, but it was too big for my software company. And they had two sides to the floor, one's on the right and one's on the left. And on the right is where my software company is now. And then on the left, I thought,

it's a really beautiful space. I think we could convert it to something more than just office buildings, office space, right? So then I had the idea to convert it into a holistic health center, which we did. There are seven large rooms that we rent out to therapists. And then we converted one of the bigger rooms into a small yoga room. And we call this the inner space. And so people offer their services and together we form the center and we do some common activities. And this was kind of my first step into bringing the two worlds, two aspects of my life together. So it's symbolic because they're now under the same roof, but there's still a wall between. Yeah. Right. So it's one step closer, but not completely integrated. Right. Once you have like the actual physical

space interspersed also, that would be kind of interesting. Switzerland, how does that enter the picture? So basically, I met my ex-wife in Germany. I actually met her in Canada through a mutual friend. And then 10 years later, I was on a business trip in Germany where she was living. So I looked her up. And then that's kind of the short story of how I got into Germany. And then I was on a year assignment after that in Germany that ended. And we both didn't really want to continue living in Frankfurt, which is where we were at the time. And she had done some of her student terms work assignments in Zurich. And she just had this fairytale imagination and memories in Zurich. And she just had this fairy tale imagination and memories of Zurich. So because I also had the interest in Carl Jung,

that was when I decided to take a year off of work and study at the Jung Institute. Got it. So then that took us to Switzerland. We both liked it. So then we stayed. Yeah. So you've been there now 15 16 probably longer i think now yeah maybe 18 years oh yeah yeah october 2nd oh so yeah pretty much right there yeah 18 years

it's so so fascinating right so you you've kind of got like these you you've got the Canadian, you've got the Egyptian, and now a healthy dose of Swiss. And German because my son was born in Germany and my ex-wife's German. So I always, I feel an affinity to Germany. Like I vote for Germany in the World Cup soccer and stuff like that. So yeah, there's these elements in my psyche that have now are part of me. Yeah, I mean, culturally. So you've got four different places, four very different cultures. Do you feel like they work well together?

Well, this is exactly why I feel I'm doing what I'm doing is because I feel so at home and I feel such a love for each of these cultures. And you can even throw in American culture because I think as Canadians, we hate to admit this, but we grow up on American television. Right. So we share American values and, you know, tear up at the Constitution and things like that. I mean, and we probably can talk about American history just like Canadians. So I feel this love and these different homes in me, right?

And I feel very comfortable in all of them. So it pains me when I see one of those cultures attack another or be suspicious of that. So this is kind of the precursor to my current project is this feeling of seeing, you know, anti-American sentiment in Egypt or anti-Egyptian sentiment in America. It just doesn't feel right. It creates a dissonance in me that I just want to solve. Because it's almost like you're standing, you have a part of a foot and part of you and all the worlds together and see how they all are similar

and share so much. Exactly. What was it, before we even get to what you've been up to the last couple of years, what's popping into my mind is post 9-11. So much would have changed. So you would have been in Switzerland then, right? No, October 2nd, 2001. Got it. Okay. Got it.

Okay. Right. Got it. Piecing it together. So we were in Canada for three months before we went to Switzerland. So when September 11th happened, we were here in Canada. Yeah. There in Canada.

Right. Up north. What was, given your background, what was the, you know, the world changed profoundly like after that, but also there was a lot of sentiment that started to bubble up in this country. And I think around the world that was anti-Islam, anti people who had different skin colors and different traditions that couldn't understand. Curious how you experienced that window, sort of like having these deep affinities and connections to different places. Yeah, with a lot of horror. I mean, I think whenever something like this happens, that's so

tragic. I think a lot of people who are Muslim feel the pain of the event itself, which just like any other North American feels it, right? It's just, you're in shock. And then you feel the consequences of what this might cause in terms of hostility and misunderstanding and hate. And each time this happens, you're like, you know, I hope it's not a Muslim. I mean, it's horrible to say that. And then when, in this case, it was, you're like,

oh my God, how are people going to react to this? Right? Because the problem is the discussion right now and the connection is very abstract. And I think when we're talking about abstract concepts, we lose the humanity of it. And a lot of people, they don't know their Muslim neighbors. And if all they see is this thing that happened on the news and they hear all this thing about Islam, the natural reaction is to fear it and then fear people that they don't know, right? So it was really, as it was happening

and you felt, they found out that it was happening and you felt, they found out that it was people of Muslim background, you just felt this, the world will never be the same again, right? And it's like, oh my God, this is gonna escalate. This is horrible. And yet there were still some really beautiful examples of the opposite, right?

That people did come together. Even George Bush at the time was saying things, reaching out to Muslim countries and the Muslims in the United States, etc. So there was this opportunity. And after a number of years, you see the world did normalize. And there is still hope, right? That, you know, most people do not just judge based on one or two things that happen. Yeah. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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What's happening in the world, and what happens in you that makes you say to yourself, there's something else that I need to be doing right now? Well, yeah, so towards the end of 2016, for me, it was really getting worse, the conversation, right? And I just got very frustrated of this abstract conversation about Islam or Muslims or Westerners or Americans, it's just so abstract. It's meaningless and it creates fear and hostility. And I was seeing a lot of that at the end of 2016 and I felt powerless.

And I felt Americans are starting to be afraid of me. And I noticed that I'm starting to be afraid of Americans just reading the news. And then I realized, well, I don't starting to be afraid of Americans just reading the news. And then I realized, well, I don't want to be like that. Is there something I can do differently? And then that's when the inspiration just came. Well, why don't instead of going away from Americans, running away, living in fear, go towards the people I think are afraid of me and offer them something kind. And that was a big shift in my psyche and really actually was quite freeing. And I didn't know

where it was going to lead. I didn't know what was going to happen. But just to get out of this paralysis and do something was really the first step in a new sense of freedom. So going from that awakening, how does that become manifest? How does that become real? What are the first steps to say, okay, so how do I actually actualize this? So then the idea came, and I had the vision. It was also, I'm going to do this experiment. I'm going to go to America.

I'm going to offer people a free trip to Egypt that are concerned about Arabs in the Middle East. I'm going to just go up to them, ask them, offer them this vacation, and I'm going to take them there. And I'm going to film the whole thing. Did that idea come pretty quickly? Yeah. It was kind of like almost fully formed. Exactly. I was on a tram, and I remember, and it was like,

Where's the pen? Yeah, exactly. It was like, and I had to just run off the tram and just start doing it. And then that energy kind of dissipated for a few weeks because I was a bit overwhelmed. I didn't know how I was going to do it. Because you're not a filmmaker also. You've never organized trips. Like this is, it's an idea that you have zero experience or background in actually executing.

Right. But at the same time, I have skills in setting up projects and in like with the health center, with IT, with different things. So I felt comfortable that I could go into a new area. So I had some building blocks, but not the experience I really needed, right? Like for example, one of my companies does offshoring to Egypt. So I would bring American and European

potential customers to Cairo and I would show them around. So I felt safe there. Like, it's not like I was gonna, right? So there were, there were, there were elements, but no, I wasn't a filmmaker. So, so in January I was like, okay, I'm going to seek out a production company. I need some, some help. And then a friend of mine said, you need to talk to Ingrid Serban who ended up being our director. Right. And Ingrid is a mutual friend. And then I just did a FaceTime with her. We talked

for like five minutes and I realized she got the soul of the project. She got the soul of what we're trying to do. And what I liked about her is she's all about storytelling, about bringing people's humanity to the camera. And that was exactly what we wanted. We didn't want to make any group look good or bad. We just wanted to take all these diverse people and tell their human story, whether it was the Trump supporter or the Muslim or the left wing or whoever, just wanted to see them as human beings. And that was the beginning. And then we just moved forward and started, you know, advertising, looking for Americans. And then all the challenges came and one after another, we overcame them.

So the initial vision is, let's find a group of Americans who are probably also in some way resistant to, concerned about, fearful, or even expressing outright hatred or aggression towards, and then invite them on a trip to come to Egypt, stay in people's homes in Egypt, and just capture that. And whatever unfolds, unfolds. Yes.

Without being sort of didactic and preachy and facilitating, just let it happen. Exactly. When you take this idea, and so of course now you've got your, you got the team that's going to film it. You've got the concept. You need the people. Exactly. That was the huge challenge.

So how do you go about finding those people? Okay. So we first start on social media, right? I did this video, you know, telling people do they want a free trip to Egypt Egypt, etc. And if they do send in send in videos. So and we posted that on social media. And that was really shocking, really shocking, because I just expected people maybe just to ignore it. But no, people really wanted to to convey how stupid I was, and how horrible of an idea this is

and that they don't want to interact with these savages. And these are people that are beyond communicate, like hateful, horrible things. And that was like 90% of the comments. And then I'm like, oh my God, have we gotten to that point in the world where we're just so hateful and mistrustful that even a free trip to Egypt

comes across with so much hatred? Did that make you question whether this was a good idea or did it do the opposite and almost make you like demonstrate how much, how needed it really was well or something in the middle well what it did is it made me think uh maybe no one's gonna come yeah right and and and maybe it's too late to do this project maybe i should have done it like 10 20 years ago when people are just there's too much vitriol exactly too deeply ingrained yeah right

and and and and this was the thing. I was like, oh, my God. But I didn't want to give up, right? So then the next step was, okay, I'm going to come to the United States and I'm going to ask people in person. Maybe that's going to change, right? So then, you know, we went to all sorts of different places. Actually, one of the first places was in Manhattan. We went to Union Park. Union places. We were actually, one of the first places was in Manhattan. We went to Union Park.

Union Square. Union Square. Union Square. And right. And New York, Georgia, Tennessee, Kentucky. We went to a whole bunch of different types of states. And then the shift started happening in me. Because as soon as you speak to people face to face, it's very different than on the internet, right? And then all of a sudden,

you're talking to human beings. And then it's human to human, right? And I even went to a Trump rally in Louisville, Kentucky, right? And we found some Americans there that we took to Egypt. And there were different reactions in the different states, but what it gave me, it made me realize most people are not bigoted. Most people are not like social media, right? Most people that we interacted with are genuinely decent human beings who believe that all humans are the same. There's good and bad in everyone, etc. Right. And that's mostly what you get. We got, of course, there were the bigoted people and there was absolutely no access to those people and they were hateful and horrible.

And we met them. OK, but the majority weren't. Right. And then there was this group that said things that you would consider bigoted, but I didn't feel they were bigoted. I felt it was coming from a place of concern for their family, not understanding these people, but they were kind people. So there was access to them. And this is, I think, the mistake we're doing in general is that we don't give people a chance. We think if someone has a certain political view or he's said something in the past, he's a bigoted person. And then we're hostile towards them, right?

I was wearing my Make America Great hat when I went to the Trump rally to speak to Trump supporters and get access to them. I crossed over to the anti-Trump demonstrators just to say hello. Some of them were nice to me. Others refused to speak to me because I was racist. They shut the door, right? And that just tells you something about how far gone we are. I understand the frustration. I understand the hate, but it's not going to solve

the problem, right? It doesn't bring us further, right? And that's the thing that really this film really instilled in me, this whole journey. It really renewed my faith in humanity and really renewed my realizing I just need to listen to people. There's no threatening ideas. Listen to what they have to say. Offer what you have in return. And a lot of times more magic can happen than I realized. Yeah.

Blanking on the name of it, there's a psychological phenomenon where when we see others do something or act in a way or say something that we think is wrong, we look at them as being bad people. It's not good people who have done something bad or wrong or that we disagree with. On an identity level, we look at them as we say, like, they are a bad person. When we do something similar individually, we consider ourselves good people who have made a mistake or done something bad or said something hurtful. But fundamentally we're good people. But we don't ascribe that same sense of goodness

to others as a person that we ascribe to ourselves. We judge their identity based on a series of outward actions or things that they've done or said. It's interesting the way that the brain works that way. Yeah. And the thing is, as soon as you treat somebody as a threat or as a bad person, you're lost. You're not going to reach anything. Nothing going to happen we have an example where where it's it's one of my favorite examples of of of a screening is i don't know if you're familiar with sasha baron cohen's who is america series yeah there was one where he went uh he disguised himself up as a left-wing professor and went to kingman arizona and announced called a town hall

meeting and announced to the people of kingman that they were the lucky recipients of a brand new state-of-the-art mosque. And the reactions were just horrible. I mean, they were shocked and they said horrible and racist things. Okay, it was funny. It made its point. Sacha Baron is a very talented, funny guy. But for me, it doesn't bring people together. It's not the solution. So we actually reached out to Kingman. We called them and we said,

you guys want to watch this film with us? And they're like, who are you? We've just been burnt. No way. But after weeks of pressure and establishing trust, they agreed. And we went to Kingman, Arizona, watched the film with these people that everyone's judging as racist and all this stuff. The discussion that happened afterwards was really amazing. People came together, there were tears, there were hugs. And to the point where one person from Kingman, he stood up and he said,

your next film is gonna be a free trip to Kingman. And I invite the Egyptians. Right. So I think we miss a lot of opportunity the moment we just judge people and do it. And it's the good people that are judging people now. Right. It's we are judging people because we are so horrified at the racism that's out there. So we feel, I'm against racism. But what we don't realize is this indignation is actually not solving the problem, right? And that's really where it's important for us to just slow down. And that's what I learned because I have the same righteous indignation and I realized, no, well, as soon as I give the person a chance to speak,

a lot of times there is magic. There are the bigoted peoples where it doesn't happen, it doesn't work, but you give it a try. Yeah. So you end up finding your people, seven total, right? Share a bit about how some of these people were. So there was one woman, her name was Ellen. She was in her late 60s and she was a retired school teacher.

And you talk about September 11th. She talked about September 11th. Ever since September 11th, she said, she's just had this visceral fear when she sees Muslim men and she feels she's become really racist. And this was never the way she was before, but ever since for the last, you know, 20 years, she's been like that. And she just wanted, she had this beautiful heart and yet all this fear, but was able to be really authentic. So she and her husband, who their children described their father as very xenophobic, afraid of the world, etc. We brought them and we paired them up and we paired her up with a young Egyptian revolutionary man, right? So Muslim guy. And it was really an interesting interaction. Another person we found was a missionary Christian who wanted to go to Egypt to bring Jesus' love into the Middle East and baptize Muslims. his congregation, a former Miss Kentucky, and they were from Kentucky, and they were the sweetest

couple, but they have this view of wanting to convert everybody. And we paired them up with an Orthodox Muslim family. So a man with a beard, the woman covering her face. So it was just very interesting to see the dynamics. We found a Trump supporter, a Marine. He was at the Trump rally, big, big macho guy. And we paired him up with this beautiful Egyptian dancer who drives a Harley motorcycle, right? So it was really, and there was a couple of other pairings, et cetera. So, and, and we just watched what would unfold. Yeah. They, and they were actually staying. So, or, so they spent the entire day with their host family, but they would sleep in a hotel. Right. What's it like for you and for them? So it's one thing. So you got the dream, you got the team, now you've got the people. It's go time. Like everybody gets on a plane.

And then what's it like for you when everybody steps out into Egypt together? I mean, what's the experience for you? Well, yeah, it was quite exciting. I mean, I was prepared for almost anything that would happen, except if people would just get up and leave. I didn't want to lose the story. I just wanted to follow their journey. And that was my main concern is when there were some tensions in the beginning and people not understanding each other. I didn't know how it was going to unfold.

I didn't know if people were just going to pick up and leave or be offended and do their own thing. So it was a little bit nerve-wracking in the beginning. And then to watch it and then to start witnessing the magic that was occurring after a few days, that was really just brilliant. I felt so honored to be part of the journey. And it was like, wow. And then I told myself, if one person watches this film, that would be enough. This journey in itself was worth doing, regardless of the film that comes out of it, right? So it really, then it was just really powerful.

And then of course I didn't realize it, but I stayed in Egypt, but I took the Americans to the airport, made sure they got on the plane back to New York and watched the plane take off. The feeling of relief that everyone was safe and everyone was fine afterwards. It's still also a bit of a responsibility,

regardless of whether you're in New York or Cairo. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes.

The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. um, how you found the Americans. I'm curious about the other side too, because you had to pair them with people in Egypt. How you found those people and what were their perceptions and concerns and fears on the other side? side. Right. So it was a very different journey searching for the Egyptians, right? Because trying to find people who are afraid of a region and then bringing them there, it's a bit of a risk. It's an adventure. You need a certain type of person that's willing to do

that, right? So I was really amazed at these seven Americans having these concerns and yet still willing to embark, right? So the Egyptians, you're asking them to bring in Americans to their homes, show them their country, et cetera. So most Egyptians love that idea, right? They have this respect for Americans because of American television. You know, they love Americans, right? So it wasn't very difficult to find a lot of people who wanted to. My challenge was I was willing to bring any American that I interviewed and that I felt would benefit.

But on the Egyptian side, these are the ones that are acting as hosts, right? So I really needed to make sure these were really trustworthy people reliable people that i could really count on right so here i only took people that i personally knew or i knew people personally that could vouch for them right so i didn't go too far out in terms of the people i accepted and i wanted to get a diverse mix of that reflected Egypt, right? Because you've got the very religious people in Egypt and you've got very secular and all shades in between. And I think the Egyptians that we managed to find did reflect that.

Yeah. Did you wait until you saw who was coming and on the American side? So you just- I just got the Egyptians and got the Americans. And then it was fun to do the pairing. It's like playing the match game. Yeah, exactly.

It's like this. Because it's almost like you're casting to a certain extent. A little bit, yeah. But not in a fake way. Because you do want a certain amount of meshing and relating. And at the same time, I would imagine you do want a certain amount of difference and potential for not aggressive conflict, but potential for real strong views that oppose each other. But at the same time, an openness to relating around that. Well, I wanted to get the most diverse, diametrically opposed people that I could get together and see.

That was the experiment. That was the cure. The Christian evangelical and the orthodoxist. Right, like someone afraid of Muslim men pairing her up with a Muslim man. I really wanted to see what would happen because my theory was that, human kindness and connection will win over any type of difference.

That was my theory and hope. And this was an experiment to see if that would be the case. Yeah. Were there, in your cap, you're filming this whole thing. So I'm guessing you had hundreds of hours of footage. 250. Yeah. Not even getting into what it's like to edit that down to

like an hour and a half or whatever it is for a doc. Were there one or two or three specific moments during those 10 days and those 14 different people that really stayed with you or landed or, or, or were really powerful transformative that you could. Oh, oh oh yes and this is why i'm so excited about the film because i'm still to this day just just completely astounded by the fact that in 10 days such a deep transformation can occur right if you look at ellen and terry the the ones that i was telling you about before the retired school teacher and fear that they lived in. And to see what came out at the end, it's just so deeply moving. So deeply moving.

And everyone's deeply moved by Ellen's story and Terry's story. It's just phenomenal. So to witness that and to be a part of that was just beyond belief. We had another situation with Katie from Arizona, originally from Norfolk, Nebraska, how she had a really key moment of opening and she hadn't been able to open up about certain things that happened in her life to anybody. And she just felt this trust with her Egyptian host and her Egyptian host's mother that she really opened up in such a beautiful way. And what was even more beautiful was the mother didn't speak a word of English. And yet there was so much love and compassion and connection that it was um yeah everyone's just being so moved by by the universal language of of the heart right and one one sees that so there was a few moments like that how how was that explained was it expressed physically then, the connection? Or you just sense it?

It's actually in the film and just simply through the embrace, through what they were saying to each other in their respective languages. Obviously, someone translated to the mother, so she kind of knew what was going on, but even before she knew, just if you watch her body language as Katie's opening up and expressing, you just feel the look on her face, the compassion, yeah, I mean, it's, you just, just the look in her eyes.

I mean, it's just beautiful. There's just humanity left. When these 10 days end and the Americans go back to their country, have you sat down with them afterwards? Yes. And processed this experience with them? Yeah, so that's even part of the film because we weren't even going to do that for the film, but then things happened.

So we ended up doing that and that's been in the film. So one sees that. And then to this day, I mean, it's been two years since we went to Egypt. We're all in touch. Some of them are trying to plan trips again back to Egypt. There's just been a lot of love and connection and a little community has formed with such a diverse group of people.

I've never been, you know, I know diverse people, but I've never had such diverse group travel together and be with each other like that and come out stronger without changing anyone, right? Without anymore about that. Well, this is the thing is that what gave me hope is the fact that Jason and Jenna are just as zealous about their Christian beliefs as they were before. I don't think anyone's changed their political beliefs, never asked them. And yet we came out as friends and it shows that we don't have to change each other's political or religious beliefs and still get along. I mean, it's such a basic concept, but it seems like we've forgotten that.

And the film was really powerful in this journey in showing that. A lot of people say, well, Jason and Jenna, they didn't change a bit. And I go, yeah, no, they didn't change their religious views, but I wasn't trying to convert them to anything. And Jason, though, he calls me every few weeks and he's still so excited. And he's like, Tariq, you've changed my life. I've learned how to love Muslims even better. And just the other day, we took a bunch of Christians and took them to the local mosque. So Jason hasn't changed.

He's still Jason. But he has formed these new ways of relating to people he wouldn't have related to before. Right? And it's the same with the other people, right? And one of the campaigns that started as a result of the film, which I guess we'll talk about, was called Pledge to Listen. One of the first people to sign Pledge to and what's happened is just showing, you know, let's, let's try to get along without having to change each other's political and

religious beliefs. Yeah. Cause I mean, I guess underneath all of those beliefs, the positioning and the stances is fundamentally, can we acknowledge and, and can we see first the humanity in others? I feel like so much of the adversity,

so much of the othering that's happening here, like we point to political beliefs, we point to religious beliefs. Fundamentally, I think so much of it grows out of something that happens that somehow turns off the switch in us that allows us to see the humanity in somebody who doesn't look and believe the same way and things that we do and and once like when the human when we don't see that but some some snippet of ourselves another human being I don't think anything else really will allow you

to begin to relate to them again. Even if you share a lot of the same beliefs, but the moment we can see a bit of ourselves in them, we can actually acknowledge their humanity. I feel like that opens the door so much to, like you said, not necessarily, I'm not gonna change my political beliefs or my spiritual religious beliefs,

but at least I can see that they are human beings who are maybe genuine, generous, loving, and worthy of those same things. Absolutely, exactly, yeah. I think that's really the key is as soon as we can, yeah, humanize each other and humanize the conversation, it all changes. Yeah. So the listeners can't see, but the smile you just had on your face makes me really curious. We've talked a lot about how this came to be, about how this has made a profound difference in the lives of the people who were first in this experience and now are able to sit and see this captured in documentary and then have conversations around it. What about you?

How has it changed you? Oh, a lot. So I think the first thing is it's renewed my faith in humanity. I was alluding to that before, is that I think the majority of people are not racist. The majority of people want to talk, are sick and tired of this polarization. No matter what political view you have, I think most Americans and people around the world are just tired of the fact that we just can't sit down and talk without all this hate, right? So this is my experience, my personal experience of after talking to hundreds of people, I'm convinced of this. So that gives me hope that

we're not so bad. We're not in bad shape. The other thing is I had to look at my own preconceptions, right? I had my own prejudices. Brian, the Marine that we found at the Trump rally, I, you know, I had my conceptions of what a Marine at a Trump rally would be like, and he completely blew those out of the water. He has a tattoo on his left shoulder, which is a biblical verse about the greatest love is to sacrifice one's life for one's friend or brother, right? And this is his whole concept behind being a Marine. It's about love of your brother, right? And I was like, okay, wow, that's interesting. I would have never expected to see a Marine talking about love and kindness. And so we really connected and became good friends.

But again, I had to drop my preconceptions. The first few days when we arrived in Egypt, Jason, the Christian missionary, he and I just locked heads for days. There's footage of us in the Red Sea swimming and still debating because I was just saying, you know, I really respect your religious view. I don't doubt that your experience, but is it not possible that others of other religions might have deeply powerful experiences as well? And he would imply, no, the only way is through Jesus and all that stuff. And that would really bother me. And I spent days trying, no, can't you see? Until I realized that I am trying to convert him just as much as he's trying to convert me. And as soon as

I let go of that desire to convert him, as long as he's not violent, why should I care? And then I let go of that. And then I could really see in Jason a really beautiful human being who's really, you know, brave and courageous, will pray for people on the street, will bring homeless people into his own home. And right, so I discovered him, right? And I don't need to change him, right? But I had to face that in me. I had to face when I'm speaking to people on the street that have these views that kind of make me aggressive, what's happening in me? Why do my ears shut down, right? And that's why I was saying earlier that, okay, I realized because I all of a

sudden feel fear when I hear something that I consider racist. I feel I have to fight it, right? Because it's a dangerous idea. And then as soon as I realized, you know what, it's not dangerous. There's nothing dangerous to me at this moment. Feel, listen. And then from a different place, I can react. And then there's actually connection and transformation that can occur. So all these things, they're things I learned on this journey. So I'm just so grateful to have been able to go on this trip. Yeah. And that also, I mean, it kind of leads nicely to this pledge to listen. So the trip and the documentary and the sharing around it is not, in fact, the end of the story.

Right. Because everyone asks me, what's your next project? And my answer is, this is just end of the story. Right. Because everyone asks me, what's your next project? And my answer is, this is just beginning. Yeah. Right. And so I reflected quite a bit on why we managed to get through this in such a positive way. And I think the thing I realized is, was this listening with respect, right? And that's when the Pledge to Listen movement came about. We realized everyone can be a part of it. So we can all go on this journey together.

So the Pledge to Listen is just simply a pledge to say, you know, I'm not going to demonize anybody. I'm going to wait, hear what they have to say, and then just say what I also believe as well. So it's not about just being silent. And it's really thousands of people have joined Pledge to Listen where we've partnered with many organizations. So our film starts a conversation and then other organizations can continue the conversation. Like there's the Charter for Compassion. There's the Jewish Muslim Voices for Peace. There's the film was shown in 500 theaters across the country. And then a panel discussion was streamed into the theaters from Washington, D.C. And we brought thought leaders together who shared the one thing in common that they wanted to see more listening

and kindness in the world. And yet they were so diverse. And these people were Marla Maples, Trump's former wife, Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, the Democratic presidential candidate. We had an advisor to Trump, a former associate secretary of state to Obama, Rabbi Rami Shapiro, the Oscar-winning director Peter Farrelly. All these people came together, so diverse, yet inspired by the film, wanting to create more listening and kindness in the world. And that's Pledge to Listen. And now we're working with our partner organizations where people can organize community screenings, bring people together and talk and find out what's going on in their neighborhood. These partner organizations can share their activities. Then people can do something. And slowly we're able to start a conversation and continue and people have ways to move this forward.

Yeah, I love that. I love also that if you went to a whole bunch of communities and said, hey, we're calling a meeting so that we can talk about this one particular issue, probably a lot of people wouldn't show up. But if you say, hey, we're screening this really fascinating documentary. Right. And then there'll be a Q&A, there'll be a conversation afterwards.

You'll get a lot more people in the room. Exactly. So it's an interesting mechanism. It's like a prompt that first does the work of bringing people together and then cinematically starts to open their heart a little bit and then sort of like sets the scene for a bigger conversation, which is really powerful. At the same time, like you're running businesses, but so much of your presence and your heart is in these other things. And you kind of like, you know, you're starting to put a bow on the bigger part of this effort that's really engaging you and stepping a little bit more fully back into this other day-to-day business life. Any strain or struggles or challenges sort of like reintegrating into just everyday business and life from this? Or was it just you stepped back in but differently? It was important. What I realized, so I went down part-time with my

businesses and I assigned people to run them before I took on my new projects. And what I realized is that if business is going to continue to thrive, because I've been doing this part time for maybe about four or five years. So I've had a bit of experience. I realized the business is going to continue to thrive. I can reduce my time, but I cannot reduce my passion. Right. And that was really important for me. And it was a realization.

I had experimented. And then what I've realized is if I just, you know, reduce it maybe four hours a week or one day a week, if I bring the same enthusiasm and desire for success, it thrives. But if you kind of bring in this four hours, it's like not your passion, right? And for me, as long as I feel I have enough time for something, it's not a nuisance, right? So that was really the trick for me is making sure, okay, this IT stuff, it's too much every day, you know, I need something else, right right so as long as I was able to find the balance then whether if it's five minutes then you know if I can't stand it for more than five minutes a week that's fine but then those five minutes I'll be really excited about it right so it's never been that that the film is kind of like the the fun project and those oh, this boring stuff I have to get back to because I've dosed it in enough that those few hours or day still exciting and fun.

And then the people sense that and then I can just trust that they continue, you know, doing, sharing the vision and continuing. So I've been fortunate. There were times where I didn't have enough hours in the day, especially leading up to the Pledge to Listen Day of Unity with the time zones and everything. So I was working 16 hours a day, which I usually am not a workaholic. And that lasted one or two months. And I said, okay, it's a couple months, I'll give myself permission to do that. And then after the Pledge to Listen Day of Unity, then things have normalized again, I have normal hours

and it seems to be working. Yeah, it's almost like these two sides have become this benevolent feedback mechanism. Like one fuels the other, which fuels the other, which fuels the other. Yeah. Exactly. Which you almost wonder if you hadn't done this, how you would have kept feeling about sort of like the core,

you know, like capital W worth that you were doing in your business. Yeah, it wouldn't have worked. The thing is what had happened is that I knew years ago, I wanted to go down part-time. Yeah. And then what I did is I was saying, okay, I'll wait for the inspirational project to come and then I'll go down part-time. It never came. And then I realized

I'm doing this wrong. I have to go down part-time first and then the inspiration will come. So I actually went down part-time and then I filled the time with hobbies, right? And things that I like to do. And then as soon as my space kind of slowed down, things appeared. Yeah. It's that space, like that's the window where you allow that thing to emerge. You need it. Yeah. So powerful. So as we sit here in this container of the Good Life Project, if I offer up the term to live a good life, what comes up? Immediately, love was the first word that came up. I think love and presence to oneself and to the other, I think that's really the key for me. That's where I find my true joy and inspiration is as soon as I'm really present fully to what's happening inside me and outside, things go well. And as soon as I'm afraid or whatever, and I go out of that and I'm not present, things get more complicated. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening. And thanks also to our fantastic sponsors who help make this show possible. You can check them out in the links we have included in today's show notes. And while you're at it, if you've ever asked yourself, what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will

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