Good Life Project - When Life Partners Become Business Partners: Linda & Charlie Bloom

Episode Date: July 7, 2016

+++Come to Camp GLP: The Ultimate blend of learning and play! +++ Today, on Good Life Project, I have two very special guests joining me. Linda and Charlie Bloom have been together for the better part of 50 years and have been working together for over 30. This husband and wife team of therapists have […]The post When Life Partners Become Business Partners: Linda & Charlie Bloom appeared first on Good LifeProject. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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That's a good contract. Today's guests, Linda and Charlie Bloom, have been together for the better part of 50 years. And for a solid chunk of that time, they're not only partners in life, married, but also partners in business. They're therapists who work together and they work in the field of building relationships. And their relationship, their personal relationship has been probably as much a cauldron for their understanding of how to build and grow together and also do a lot of myth busting and expectation shifts that many of us really don't deal with, actually. And a lot of the things that they have learned through their own life and through their therapy practices and workshops and programs has been that there are a lot of myths that exist in relationships, whether

it's between adult partners or parents and kids or even business partners that are massively destructive and utterly wrong. And they talk about a lot of those in their newest book, Happily Ever After. The conversation that we dive into today explores some of those myths, but even more, just really explores the bigger dynamic of what is it really like to be in relationship with somebody else for an extended period of time? What are the big illusions and delusions that we need to get past or sometimes actually elevate in order to really meander this long-term path? It was really fun for me also on another level because they're married and they've been working together for quite some time. It was fun to ask questions and see how they handle certain

things because as you guys, my long-term listeners know, I work in this business in Good Life Project and my wife is also my business partner and we work together. We do very different things in the business. So it's interesting to see how they navigate this dance with work and with life as partners and what mechanisms they've put in place to really help it work effectively. So if any of you are out there and you're actually in business with your partner, I think you'll also find it especially interesting and engaging. Anyway, on to the conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. So you guys are in from Santa Cruz, which I was telling Charlie before we went on, a place that I've been to, I was telling you as well, a place I've been to once. It's a really interesting town. It's got a very kind of like a holistic vibe. I remember

walking down, I don't remember what it's called, but it was like the main street in town. Pacific Avenue. And there was a guy selling dream catchers. There was another guy with a car parked there and everyone was drawing on his car. I don't know if that's a regular thing or we just have to walk. Well, that's the mainstream street. Then there's the street that's not so mainstream. So tell me about that because that's what I'm more interested in. Oh, we love Santa Cruz. I mean, it's a place where there's a lot of outliers there and different areas. And one of the things that attracted us to it is that our son went to college there. And we used to visit him a lot. And we would go down there and just walk along the beach.

I grew up on the beach in Massachusetts. Ah, OK. And I just, I loved the beach. I grew up on the beach in Massachusetts. And I just, I loved the feeling. And we would talk about how, gee, wouldn't it be great if we lived here? We could do this whenever we wanted to. And the opportunity presented itself about 10 years ago. We had been living in Sonoma before then. Not a bad place either. No, Sonoma was nice. But a totally different vibe.

Very, very different. Sedate. place either no it's always nice but it's totally different very very different wine country you know kind of upscale and although it wasn't when we moved there and uh we made the move and turned out to be one of the best things we'd ever done we've really loved it there and found that it really supports the work that we do the people who live there seem to be very much in the same wavelength that we're on. And, you know, that's important to be among your tribe. Yeah. No, I so agree.

I mean, both the physical setting where you're just like, this is my place, and also finding you use the word tribe. It's so important. I think there are two things that most of us really don't think about and almost default to that decision rather than really deliberately kind of choosing the way that you guys kind of said and then kept going back and back. Tell me more about the work that you do and what got you guys into it. I actually have a couple of curiosities here. So where do I start with this? You work together, which is an interesting thing that I would love to explore. My wife and I also work together. She's a business partner in Good Life Project. And people are often asking us like, how is that even possible? You guys are actually okay. I wonder that myself sometimes.

Business together. And you're like, wait, then people say, wait a minute. So you're actually with each other like 24, seven, seven days a week. And yeah, and it actually is great. But I absolutely think it's not right for everybody, but it's great for us. You guys have been working together for decades now, I guess. Since the 86, when we started our own business. And it's been a really interesting journey and rough sometimes. I able to work out who's going to have responsibility in which domain and bringing our strengths, you know, to bear because I'm a big planner and I'm organized and I like it all tacked down and Charlie's more free flowing. I'm not

making any judgment about that. It's good complementarity. But there was a learning curve in the beginning. And I'm so grateful that we stuck it out with teaching together, writing together. And sometimes we do counseling together. Often he has his counseling clients and I have mine, but we offer intensives and people come in from out of state, spend a day or two with us. And so we work together then. So we're together a lot and there are a lot of decisions that need to be made. And we're really enjoying it now.

There was a rough period in the beginning. I'm curious because your work is relationships, you know, is helping to define and deepen and navigate and weave through relationships. So here's what the talk in my head is, you know, it's sort of like the kid of the therapist. I don't want to hear any of that. Okay. It's like. Our kids can relate to that. Stop using your therapy stuff on me.

Oh, yeah. But when you're in a relationship and you layer on top of that business partnership, and your business is the business of relationships and teaching others how to navigate and working with others to help them navigate through it, how much of your process when you're working together is kind of like, oh, well, this is the appropriate tool or strategy to do this, sort of like dipping into your well versus just kind of freestyling, letting go where it needs to go. Our students and clients seem to really appreciate when we tell stories on ourselves. And we tell stories from our past when we had rough times. And they seem to be really inspired by that.

And sometimes people say things to us like, they were so screwed up and they're so happy now. We could do at least that well. And we do tell specifics about when we didn't argue well, when we didn't share power well, when we weren't as considerate of each other, when we were fear-driven rather than love-driven, and how we learn to do it with more finesse and grace and how we're enjoying each other now. And we really have paid attention over time, so that we've got it detailed and specific to offer to people because they want tools, they want recipes, they want blueprints. So what we offer is very practical. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. You know, it's interesting you said fear-based versus love-based. My sense is that people in relationships probably don't immediately say,

my relationship has just landed in a place where we're both leading with fear. Is your experience working with partners and couples, that that's even an awareness that people have when they're in it? It's one of the reasons why a lot of our work involves practicing mindfulness, not necessarily in the sense of, you know, encouraging people to do a formal meditation practice sitting every day, although that's fine. But just to be mindful of what you just said, oh, there's fear here now. You know, I'm feeling scared. Because that's what really sidetracks most relationships. That's what is the initial ingredient that provokes an argument or a fight or a disagreement. It's not only the resistance to acknowledging I'm scared, but it's the unwillingness to even feel the fear. So we don't know that I'm scared

and that's why I'm being defensive now. I'm scared and that's why I'm getting angry at you. We don't know that. So, so much of our work has to do with helping people to just become aware of what is it that you're experiencing right now? Can you pause just long enough to check in? It only takes a moment, a second, to notice what you're feeling. Because if you don't, then it's very likely that you're going to override that feeling with some kind of a defensive reaction that's just going to create, you know, the inevitable downward spiral cascading down again. Yeah.

It's interesting, too, because there's, like you said, it seems like we operate on such an unconscious level almost as we move throughout our days. I'm just kind of going about things in a fairly reactive autopilot space. And when it comes to relationships, we just carry that right into it. Absolutely. Absolutely. You mentioned, you also said mindfulness, but not necessarily sort of like a formal practice of mindfulness. Right.

Take me deeper into what you mean by that. Right. just on automatic pilot, do you know, where they're taking time to see what's going on with me. And if they start feeling resentful, angry, defensive, even rageful, to not just act out of that feeling, you know, to withdraw or to attack and defend, but to be with it because underneath those difficult feelings, the angry ones, there's some other difficult feelings that are more vulnerable, the tender ones. I'm frightened. I'm frightened that my needs aren't going to be met. I'm frightened you want to get your way at my expense.

And if people can practice mindfulness about being self-aware and check in, they have more options available to them to make skillful choices and not put the other person on the defensive where you can get into combative conversations, arguments, or lack of cooperation that's of more quiet variety. We want to have people working in harmony with each other, whether it's a romantic partner or with their kids, especially the teens, do you know, with their family members, their friends, the people on the job. And that if we use our relationship as part of our spiritual practice,

we will slow down the rate at which we're rushing through our life at high velocity, a lot of people, and have those creative choices available to make the skillful ones. Using our relationships as part of our spiritual practice is going to the church or going to the synagogue or going to the mosque and you sing hymns and you say prayers, you know, and that that's the spiritual practice. And then there's a whole growing body of people who know that your spiritual practice is every part of your life. It's beautiful when you have other people who are like-minded to sing the hymns with and say the prayers with and to have the inspirational sermon. But where the rubber meets the road is if you could take that uplifted feeling into your relationships. And so we're

holding out the possibility for people that they can rise into their greatest self, their most evolved self, their higher self. Some people might call it their holy self. Do you know if they can use their relationships as an opportunity and there's going to be fraught with opportunity and the closer the relationships, the more opportunity there is going to be there to be developing ourselves, to develop our courage, to develop our self-discipline, to develop our patience and tolerance and kindness and love. So we want people to be thinking about their spiritual practice throughout their day and particularly in the relationships

and the most difficult ones are going to give you the biggest chances. Yeah. So it's really interesting, right? Because you're sort of framing a relationship as not just this invitation for the two people to see if we can make it work, but as a tool, as a mechanism for your own personal exploration and elevation. That's it. Yeah.

I don't think many people think about their personal. I mean, when people come to you guys to work on their relationships, are the vast majority of people, is that even part of the conversation that they enter with? What motivates most people to come to us as desperation. And what they're looking for is some help just to get unstuck from the quagmire that they've been in, you know, for weeks or months or decades even. So, no, they're not connecting those dots at all. Not only do they not have any real interest in something as big as the possibility of what my relationship can provide for me in terms of the growth of my awareness and my consciousness and myself as a human being, which is huge. I mean, it's incredible. But they're just looking for something that can get them over this hump. Right. It's like they're in pain.

They're in pain. They want to stop the pain and they want to get back to some kind of a norm. And like, if you can just get me back to where I was before, you know, things really got bad, I'd be really happy. So we don't, you know, try to discourage. We understand that you meet people where they are with what they've got. But we always hold a vision of what is possible. Yeah, we'll help you with that, and hopefully you can get there.

And then if and when they do, the answer to the what's next question is you can go even further. And most people can't even conceptualize what that could look like because they've never really looked at it in terms of a growth model. They've just looked at it in terms of, you know, if we can just sort of get along, okay, that would be really nice. Yeah. It's like they're stuck at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy and they're trying to just, they're in relationship survival mode. That's right. Can I actually just get the base of the pyramid down and not even think about the possibility that they could become this

transcendent experience. Absolutely. Absolutely. And we know that from our own experience. We know what it's like to be in a situation where you'd be really happy just to get out of the pain and just to get up to neutral, please. But then to see that there's more and to find out, and we found out from other people who were further along the path than we were, that, hey, yeah, there's more stuff beyond getting okay. And we also found out from making a lot of mistakes and learning from them. It's not about making sure that you don't screw up, because what's guaranteed is you're going to make mistakes.

It's just given. But the question is, can you learn from the mistakes? Can you be open enough to really do some self-reflection, take a look at what just happened, be willing to accept a certain amount of responsibility for having participated in that, learn what there is to learn, put in a correction, move on. That's kind of the process. When you can see what's available, if I can move on, then the motivation comes to go further rather than to just say, okay, we're all right. You know, that's good enough. Let's just go on cruise control. What role do you guys think hope has in the entire process? Because my sense is people probably come to you at a moment

in their lives where they feel like there's, maybe I'm wrong here, right? Because if they're coming to you, I would assume there's got to be some sliver of hope, but probably not much more. And I'm curious what the role of having even a sliver of hope that there may be a resolution, which is good, plays in what you do. Hope is a really important factor. And the people who come to us, whether it's our workshops and intensives or counseling, they have some hope. And you're right.

It usually is a little sliver, and they're afraid to let their expectations be so big. So we always want to fan that little spark of hope to allow your imagination to be big. And they're motivated to get out of pain just to get into the pleasure realm where they can have some comfort and security and not fear that their relationship is going to go over the cliff, or not only that they might not lose their relationship, but they might not have to stay in a relationship that doesn't really fit them and that is so painful. But after they get out of the minus zone up to zero, and they see that the same skills and the same qualities got them this far, that they can take them even farther. And that's when the population that's interested, we call that going for the gold, the population that's willing to roll up their sleeves and do some work, who aren't just willing to settle

for the comfort and security and the pleasure level, who want to go for the juice, for the passion, for the aliveness, who are willing to take some risks. And then the people who move that far, there is some portion of those who want to go all the way to the top for self-actualization, do you know, to know what their purpose is and to really have the highest levels of meaning in your life that's possible. Yeah. So if you're going for, and this has been a longstanding fascination of mine, if part of your job is I want to understand me as an individual as much as I can, and I want to leverage whatever opportunities I have to learn about who I am,

and what's important to me, and what my contribution to the world is, and to, on a personal level, move up the hierarchy to that place of really understanding why I'm here, and standing in that. When you have two people who are doing that independently, what's the dance between individual self-actualization and working on the partnership. So some of it is done independently, and a lot of it is done collaboratively. And so we're encouraging people to use what the relationship throws up, you know, the issues about power and control, the issues about areas of sensitivity that we're left with from our family of origin, you know, wounds that haven't healed yet. And to use that material that comes up

as the growth opportunity that it is to know the self, to develop the self, to recognize the wonderful strengths that we have and to use those and to also tell the truth about these are my weak suits, do you know? And I'm glad you're in my life to compliment my weak suits, but I also want to learn from you so that those areas where you're so strong, I can become stronger in those areas. So if we make a contract with our partner, I will be your believing eyes. I will see your greatness. I will call forth your greatness. I will encourage the parts of you that you may have doubts and insecurities about. I can see you in some ways more clearly than you can see yourself. That's a good contract. And also part of the contract is I realize that a failure to confront is a failure to love.

And I will give you a kick in your behind if I see that you're lagging because I see your greatness. And it is part of my loving contract with you to call that forth. Yeah, which is a really beautiful way to sort of frame it as these mutual agreements. And at the same time, when does trying to work on the relationship, I guess, is very individual. I don't even know if you guys can answer this, but sort of become a drag on everybody sort of standing in who they need to become, rather than just saying, you know what, the relationship has been a great cauldron for us to actually start to discover who we are. But it's actually now the desire to mend it and make it last and stay is actually it's becoming more of a dysfunction than a function at this point.

Well, the dichotomy between doing personal work on yourself and working on the relationship is probably, and I should use air quotes around dichotomy because it seems like a dichotomy, but the more that Linda and I experience the integration of those two things, the more I realize that it's all part of the same process, that it isn't an either or thing. And my work on myself is the work on the relationship, because the relationship is not going to be able to grow or to change if I don't deal with certain aspects of my own personality that are resisting change. And it's kind of inherent in all of us humans to resist change, even if consciously we might see the benefit from it. There's this other part of us that really kind of wants to hold on to the status quo. So the paradox there is that if I don't somehow come to terms with my resistance to that, the relationship isn't going to grow. And if

the relationship doesn't grow, then that's going to prevent me from growing. So it's kind of a cycle that is self-reinforcing. And at some point, it just became, for me, a non-issue that this either-or thing, I saw it's all part of the same whole. It's when there's a relationship issue, for example, with me and Linda, and one of us gets defensive or reactive or we find ourselves in an impasse, then the question for both of us is, okay, so what's happening with me right now? What is it in me that I need to look at that's contributing to us being where we are right now? It's not asking, how is this my fault? Or what am I doing wrong? Or what's she doing wrong? It's more about just stepping back just far enough to be able to get a bigger sense of the picture.

So whether the foreground is myself and the relationship is being impacted by that, or it's reversed and we're looking at the relationship, but ultimately, you know, it's also about me. It doesn't seem like a dichotomy anymore. It just seems like it's all two sides of the same coin. And in addition to that truth, there also is the truth that a relationship goes through phases. And there are phases when it's time to really be committed and to seal the container. And sometimes it becomes a hot cauldron, you know, and you have to work out the differences and go through the power struggle stage. And then there is a stage of individuation where the togetherness may have gotten too much. You may have been cocooning too much.

You may not have been graceful in the dance of love and freedom, the coming together and the letting go to be your own unique person with your own life goals that may be different from your partner's life goals. And there is a time to individuate, to be more separate. Maybe you have interests not in common. Maybe you have friends not in common. Maybe you have goals not in common. And it's important not to be too extreme about that, to go too far away for too long, and to keep the dance where you come back and your partner feels secure in your love, and you have agreement that this is something that I really need to do for myself right now. This is essential for my own well-being and my growth and development. And I hope that you can support me in this. And I'm not forgetting you or neglecting you. I'm

just taking good care of myself, responsible self-care, so that I can be a bigger, better person to bring to my relationship with you. Yeah. You were just sharing that. Something came to my mind, which is that for a number of years, we actually ran a long-term program where it was sort of a blend of pretty intensive, accelerated personal and business development all mushed into one. My philosophy is business and life are one and the same. You can't separate them. And something really interesting would happen because we would gather a group of people and they would go through, you know, seven to 10 month intensive experience together. They would go on retreat. And because our community is largely sort of in the middle years of their lives, many of them are partnered. And many of them would start to really dive into their own

exploration of who they are and what they wanted. And we had conversations where they would go home sometimes and their partner would over time develop first a sense of fear and a sense of threat for two things. One is, hey, like my partner is actually building these what perceived to be really intense, deep personal relationships with people I don't know. The second one was that one person decided that they wanted to actually really start to walk down a path of deep personal exploration and growth. And the other person wasn't on that same path. And that became the focus of conversation. And it has remained the focus of conversation over time with a number of people that I know that we've either worked with or just, you know,

it's a really interesting conversation. I think when a lot of people hit their middle years, especially because those very often it's when in life we start to ask those big existential questions. I'm curious what your lens is on when one person starts to walk down that path and the other doesn't. We call that a mixed marriage. Back in the old days, it was mixed races and mixed religions that were the mixed marriage. But we see a fair amount of that where one person is passionate and alive, personal growth and development and self-actualization. And the other person's not on that wavelength. And it can be divisive, but it doesn't have to be.

But the person who is so passionate about their personal growth really needs to make room. Do you know that the other person's a separate individual with different values and goals for their life and a different history? And I sometimes tell the story that I learned from one of my meditation teachers, Jack Kornfield. And he talked about this young woman who started to study Buddhist philosophy, and she was so enamored with it. And her family was very fundamentalist Christian. And when she went home for Thanksgiving, she was effervescing about Buddhism and what it meant to her. And the more she talked and the more excited she got, the more quiet and silent

and withdrawn they were. But she was practicing mindfulness and she noticed. And so she went back at Christmas and she had a very wonderful interaction with her family at that holiday celebration. And she came back and she told with her family at that holiday celebration. And she came back and she told Jack, when I went home at Thanksgiving, I was talking all about Buddhism. When I went home for Christmas, I was the Buddha. This story touches me because I think we can alienate other people with our wild enthusiasm and try to enroll them or put our trip on them, and they wither and feel that they're not connected to us. So to emphasize the places where we are connected, to emphasize the place where the commitment is strong and our life goals are similar,

and that there's room for us to be ourselves without having to contort ourselves to fit into the other person's world. Something I also just picked up on. I love that, by the way, because it is something that I'm seeing more and more. But there's something else that I just picked up on, which is that when Charlie says something and then you have something else to add to it. You start your sentences with and not but. Is that intentional? Yes. It's good communication. Because if you say but, sometimes the person feels like, well, what I just said wasn't so valuable.

And if you can honor their point of view and you say, and there's more. That's deep respect. And you have to really feel it. You can't just do the mechanics of it. You have to really feel it. No, it's also, it's an improv approach to life. You know, because the rule in improv is it's never no, it's never but, it's yes and. Never knew that. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because it's improvising within certain agreed upon rules and frameworks, but sort of respecting that it's never about rejecting what just came before you, even though it's like completely threw you for a loop. Right. Yes, and.

Right. But it's also, it's like you said, it's a sign of respect, and I'm doing it again. And it's also like Linda said, you can't fake it because you feel that that's a very fundamental, important point. And you want to even expand on it a little bit. So if you just use this as a technical, mechanical technique, it doesn't work because, you know, we know basically, we can feel when people say things that is sincere and you know when it's not i mean i'm not saying that we all know exactly all the time but we have a sense and what what we seem to respond to in each other in general people i think is is the feeling and the intention underneath the words. So some of the books, self-help books about relationships that focus more on the correct language to use and preoccupy people with sort

of an obsessive concern about saying it correctly, the right way, the right words, I think it misses the point. Because if the intention is not grounded in a desire to really connect and support the other person, then no matter what words you use, it's not going to really have the kind of impact you want it to have. And we can feel that. It's funny. There are all sorts of scripts to navigate conversation, whether it's business partnerships or marriage partnerships. But I so agree with that. It doesn't matter what the verbal script is that's going on.

You can look in somebody's eyes. You can see their body language. You just feel the energy and just know that this is not actually legit. That's right. And even if that doesn't register consciously, it does register in us and we respond accordingly. We may start feeling less safe. We may start feeling less interested in what the person is saying. We may feel less trusting of them.

All that happens sometimes consciously or unconsciously. But there's got to be alignment between the words and the feelings. I mean, that's integrity. And a big part of our work is about creating relationships that are grounded in integrity so alignment there is sounds like essential or the essential personal alignment within myself i'm not talking about alignment in the couple because that comes from our own individual self-alignment but alignment between the words that I'm saying, for example, and what I'm genuinely feeling, you know, that I'm walking the talk. What else do you feel is critically important in sort of being in that place of personal integrity?

We have as foundational, you know, really cornerstone of the work that we do and what we offer, emotional honesty, revealing rather than concealing, being open rather than closing, expressing rather than repressing. We often start class with this written on the flip chart right up front and hold it out there. And it's scary for people. It's very vulnerable, but it's not brutal honesty. It's emotional honesty speaking from our own experience, what we feel in need. So it's less about what they do or don't do or say or don't say. And so if we're promoting authenticity, integrity, vulnerability, these are all where we come from. And if we make a contract with our partner that this is going to be foundational in our relationship, they're not going to be taboo subjects we can't talk about,

that we're going to do our best to stay out of judgment, that we won't condemn the other person, that we wouldn't go blabbing it to somebody else, that we're trustworthy condemn the other person, that we wouldn't go blabbing it to somebody else, that we're trustworthy, confident. This all sets a context of safety and security in the relationship that is the platform so people can come out of hiding things that they may feel embarrassed to show. The classic for the men is their weakness and sensitivity their tears their sadness their fears their loneliness the classic you know traditional woman is the ambition and the hard driving do you know the person that wants power and sometimes we can be so busy keeping parts of ourselves hidden

in the shadows that we're bringing a small sliver of ourselves to the relationship. So if we make a contract that we want to be in our fullness and in our wholeness, and I want to risk showing those parts that are tender to you, it's a good contract. And so often people get in a relationship and they don't have this idea in their mind, do you know, that I can grow into my wholeness, I can grow into who I could be if we over time are supporting each other to come out of hiding. And all the places that are in the shadows, both my dark side that I want to hide that I think will creep you out, and my gold and magnificence that I'm afraid might, you know, scare you, that I want to be in my fullness. I don't want to hide those

parts of myself anymore. That that's exhilarating, and that's juicy. We're almost together for 50 years, do you know, and they're still... No, we're together for almost 50 years. Yes. It's juice, do you know? And some people have this mistaken notion that the best is in the beginning, in the discovery, and then it's all downhill from there. And that can become a self-fulfilling prophecy if you believe that. But if you believe that you can keep growing as an individual and becoming more of who you are, and that you will support each other to do that, your relationship's

going to stay juicy all the time, all the way through. Which brings up something interesting and also sort of ties in with your most recent book and where you guys explore a lot of the big myths about relationships. I was actually recently at, you know, we're in New York City where we have this amazing thing called the Tribeca Film Festival. And I was at a screening the other night, and we were watching a movie about happiness. And basically, it was one man's attempt to get happy through a variety of different mechanisms. And in it, he cited Jonathan Haidt's book, The Happiness Hypothesis, and a bunch of the research he put together. And one of the big pieces that he cited was when you compare the happiness of a relationship at that

initial, it's like passionate love phase, the chart is like maxes out. And when you compare the happiness of somebody where it's just sort of a purely companionate love, it's happy, but it's much lower down. But what happens when you look like three or six months out is that the passionate part craters. And then slowly over a period of, I think it was 60 years, that sustained companionate love actually elevates somebody substantially. So you have these crisscrossing curves. It's one of the myths that you guys talk about is sort of this intersection between passionate love and friendship and sustaining

those feelings over time. And so take me into a little bit of the mythology and the expectations around this that you see. Yeah, well, you're touching on a really important distinction here, and that is between pleasure and fulfillment. And as most of us know, the early stages of relationship, or first stages, infatuation. And infatuation literally means to be out of your mind, to be deluded. And we're in a state of delusion. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that. It's great.

It feels wonderful. And if you're lucky, you can be in that state for a while and really enjoy it. But don't kid yourself. That's not the permanent reality that you're going to be with. It's intense. It's high. It's nature's way of getting us to perpetuate the species. It works. But you can't sustain a life there. I mean, we wouldn't be very productive if we were both in that state all the time because you're just completely obsessed with being with your beloved and really getting all that pleasure, all those endorphins going through your body and everything.

It's wonderful. But what goes up, what they say, and when it does come down, it doesn't necessarily drop into a deep despair. But there is a second stage of relationship called disillusionment in which we are literally experiencing the dissolution of our illusions. So we begin to see through, you know, well, I thought that this person, you know, was just perfect and she didn't have anything and, you know, this was going to be like this forever. And I realized, whoa, I guess that's not the case, you know. And so, then that's really what, you know, getting back to your reference to the book, that's a big part of what the book is about, is about examining the beliefs, recognizing the beliefs that may not be grounded in reality. We're not saying that the 40 what we

call myths in the book are all wrong. We're just saying that most of us accept them as reality, and there can be real problems with holding a possibility as a fact, because then we're going to act accordingly. And when we do, we could be setting ourselves up for disappointment, hurt, anger, betrayal, all kinds of things. So, you know, that transition from the pleasure stage of infatuation, waking up to the reality that I guess I haven't found the prince after all, can lead you to another level of recognition of awareness of truth that, well, and maybe I'm not the princess either. So we are kind of operating on the basis from our own experience that not only will the truth set you free, and the truth means confronting, among other things, it includes confronting those beliefs that you have that may not be true and being willing to open to the

possibility you may have to reassess some of those conclusions. It'll not only set you free, but it will enable you to experience life at a much richer, more authentic level. This book is really about that. It's about experiencing the fullness, the richness, the passion that's inherent in life fully. and you can't really get there if you're clinging to beliefs that aren't necessarily accurate. I think one of the saddest myths in there is that relationships inevitably become flat and boring over time. It makes me feel so sad that people buy into that, and then that becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy for them because they're not reaching high anymore. And there's some research that came out not too long ago, maybe a year or two ago, that they interviewed these really happy

couples. And then they interview the people who know them, who assess them. And the couples that are really happy are a bit delusional because they see their partner in really lofty terms and describe them in lofty terms. So I was telling my friend Deo back home about this piece of research that I was reading about the really happy couples being delusional. And she said, well, it's all an illusion anyway, so why don't we just have some illusions that make us feel really good? And if you can believe you've cultivated over time that your partner is wonderful and you're looking at them, not through fault-finding eyes and not through critical eyes, and take those dark glasses off and put the rosy ones on, and you see their beauty and you see

their gifts and you see their unique, wonderful characteristics, then you're living in this mental space and emotional space of, I hit the jackpot here. I've really got a wonderful person. It's not to deny that there are difficulties that need to be addressed, but where we focus our attention. And so we read the positive psychology research because we teach the art of joyful living. And last weekend, we taught thriving. And so we want to know the state of the art, you know, what's new in the positive psychology, happiness research. And they say one of the best things that you can do to bring your happiness quotient up is to cultivate gratitude, to do gratitude meditation every day or keep a gratitude journal. And so before we ever touched any of the positive psychology,

you know, movement research, we knew that from our own experience and the people that we worked with, that the people who make a conscious, deliberate effort to see the beauty in their partner, and other people in their life too, and to speak that truth. Do you, what I'm appreciating about you right now is you're such a hungry learner. You bring so many interesting things to me all the time. What I appreciate about you is your humor. Left to my own devices, I'd be so much more sober and responsible. You bring so much fun. You uplift me.

Your very being and your lightness uplifts me. And if we make a commitment to that, do you know, people are so fascinating and everybody's got these gifts. And if we make a commitment to look at them through those eyes of appreciation and gratitude, it makes us feel good. And when we report out about it, it makes them feel good. So the context of the relationship is already lifted up. So how do you bridge the gap between that and being a Pollyanna? Where's the line between, okay, I want to see somebody in their best light. But then just sort of like painting your own delusion to almost allow yourself to not actually deal with what needs to be dealt with? Great question, because you can take it too far, where you go into the denial zone about that which is not working that needs to be addressed. And so if you're expansive, and if you're making a big space, and you're putting the emphasis and the accent on that which is good, but not leaving out or putting in the denial zone

the issues that need to be addressed. And we all have them. And if that's part of our contract is I want you to tell me the truth. If I offend you, if I annoy you, if I disappoint you, if I'm forgetful, bring it to my attention. I need your feedback. And then we trust each other that we will do it always with respect and compassion. But we need to tell some harsh truth sometimes. That's part of having an honest relationship. Which brings up another interesting myth that you explore, which is

the difference between privacy and secrecy within a relationship. Take me into that a little bit. Yeah, that's a really crucial one. Well, particularly for me, I'm more of an introvert than Linda is. And, you know, whenever we're teaching or writing, she always wants to put into the book all kinds of personal stuff about what we've done and what I consider to be embarrassing moments. But I know that I've learned that there's real value, you know, for the reader or for the student or even for us, you know, because that's a big part of what we teach, you know, about being authentic and putting your truth out there. However, a certain amount of discretion is sometimes useful. And this goes back to your previous question that you asked Linda about in terms of balancing that tendency, the golden with the dark. Not to take it too far, not to be a P other person as being a certain way or to see you've got to really open up and put everything out all the time, but to be more extroverted, one tends to be more introverted, one tends to

be more expressive, one tends to be more discreet about what they express. And one of the great things about relationship is that we do tend to attract people who are our complements. So what happens is that if we do our work in the relationship and we really are willing to accept and own those different parts of us, the part that wants to, you know, that naturally is inclined to be sort of circumspect or reticent to share a lot. And the part of us that wants to be freer, to be able to be expressive, probably will attract somebody who is our counterpart, who is embodying those aspects of ourselves that we're not fully expressing. And the relationship itself

will create the means to integrate and to develop and to come to a more balanced perspective about these things. Linda's become more, she's cultivated and developed some of the qualities that I have. Her personality isn't any different now, but she has added to it options to consider things in ways that maybe she wouldn't have before. I've done the same thing. I'm much more comfortable expressing myself and acknowledging experiences that I've had than I used to be, and it's much freer for me. And I really feel like it hasn't gotten me in any trouble yet. Might, but, I mean, so far so good. And, you know, it's the Pollyanna thing too.

It's another example of how our compliments have really enhanced not only the relationship, but they've expanded both of our lives where I come from a background of being much more cynical, more pessimistic, less hopeful, less positive. Linda's always had this Pollyanna aspect. So we've been able to give each other some perspective and integrate that in our own lives and in the relationship. That gives us a more balanced, more integrated point of view on different things. speak about is you're entitled to have your own private thoughts, your own private conversations with friends, your privacy. It gets dicey if you're withholding something from your partner that may be risky to bring up in the relationship. That's when it can get over the line to secrecy.

And that's the edge that people need to play about revealing more and concealing less. To find a way to say it, but there may be something important that the relationship really needs to address, it's a concern. Because it can be insidiously doing some corrosive damage if it's hidden. That's the secrecy part. Yeah, I think the underlying factor that determines which side of the line you're falling onto is the intention in speaking it. Are you speaking this with an intention to conceal something for your own benefit that is relevant to the relationship? Or are you concealing this because this is something that doesn't need to be? It's not an essential piece of information. My partner does not have to have access to

everything I've ever done. They don't need to know every feeling that I'm having every moment of the day. However, if I am involved in some behaviors that I think could be disturbing or upsetting or do concern this other person are relevant to the relationship. And I'm withholding that. So there's an intention to conceal. That makes it secrecy. And secrecy can be really damaging to a relationship. And privacy can be really enlivening.

Do you know if you have your own unique life that's separate and individuated? And I tend to reveal a lot. But I just want you to know you don't know everything about me. I think it keeps a little juice in there to have some mystery. And for the listeners, Linda was just circling and waving her fingers. It's important that you know that. I do know that, Linda. Okay.

And I think this comes up in very practical ways, right? Because there is, you know, boys night out, girls night out, or just, you know, very close friendships that may exist outside of that partnership that are completely okay. Exactly. And you may not, you know, then come and say, all of these things were just discussed when I was out with my friend at dinner or whatever it was. It's not that you're holding back something. It was a conversation. It was fun. It was great.

It had no relevance to the relationship. It doesn't have to be a threat to us if I'm close and have deep, intense conversations with them. And in fact, it can enhance our relationship that there's that much freedom and trust here that I can go and be close to other people. That enriches me. Then I got a better self to bring to you. Yeah. Is there any particular mechanism that you think is valuable to explore as a way to create a recurring moment in time in relationship to sit down and say some form of, hey, what's on your mind? You know, like safe container, you know, like everything, just let me know what's going on, or whatever the appropriate questions are. We have a practice. We're almost every single morning of our life.

We have intimacy time with each other. Not necessarily sexual intimacy, emotional intimacy. And I admit it, I'm an intimacy monger. That's my bliss in life. I like to be close. I like to connect monger. That's my bliss in life. I like to be close. I like to connect on meaningful discussions. And so for the longest time, I wasn't really thriving at the highest levels because I didn't have my daily dose. And I may do, I had a lot of intimate connections with

my women friends and my women's group. And I made a whole career out of intimate relating because I know it's too much to expect of one person. But I finally got to a point some years ago where I said to Charlie, what's really true is I want to have intimate relating time with you every day. I'd like to do it first thing in the morning before we go headlong into our day with all of our commitments and responsibilities and so forth. And he said, if it means that much to you, I will do that. And so it's often dark, do you know? The sun hasn't even come up and I'm already having a great day because we have a meaningful connection with each other. If there's anything that needs to be addressed, any out between us gets handled right away. Sometimes it's about scheduling. Sometimes it's about

appreciation and gratitude. It doesn't have to take long, five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes, but that is foundational in my life now. And I just, I get the biggest kick out of it. And I feel like one of the reasons that I operate as efficiently as I operate, and that we operate as efficiently as we operate, is out of that grounding. Now, for a lot of people, that would be too much to do it on a daily basis. Whatever is appropriate for them. Yeah, but maybe, you know, maybe once a week or a couple times a week for half an hour. But so much goes on if you've got a rich, full life. You need to collaborate with each other and see what's up to have your trajectory be going in the same general direction, not off or not this kind of a direction where we may be at odds with each other and not collaborating and cooperating.

Yeah. What's interesting also about that is that you work together. So from the outside looking in, the assumption may be, well, you've got all day every day to talk, you know. But the truth is, and I know this from my partnership with my wife, we are together all day, every day. And a lot of that is we're building a life and a business together and it's complex and it's busy. And a lot of the time that we spend, even though we may be in the same room, is fundamentally parallel play. We're in the presence of each other and we balance ideas of each other and we go to lunch all the time. So I think that almost makes it harder than if we had separate jobs

because we're around each other so much that we sometimes forget that, you know what, actually we do need these windows just to let all that go. Because I think it's easier to assume that, well, we don't have to create those moments because we're just always around each other. If you had separate daytime lives and you came together, I think the need might be more apparent, but I love, I like the morning thing. It's also interesting too, because Charlie, when Linda came to you and said, this is really what I want. I'm assuming that it wasn't really that much of a need for you because for years you weren't really doing it. So I'm curious when you agreed to that

and then now that you've been doing it, is it in any way to you feel like it's an effort that you sort of, you have to bring yourself to rather than you want to bring yourself to? At the very beginning, and my agreement wasn't quite as spontaneous as Linda described, but I did agree. We talked about it, and I did agree. At first, it did feel somewhat obligatory. My heart wasn't in it, but I wanted to do it because I knew it meant a lot to Linda, and it wasn't a big sacrifice for me. I mean, it's like she said, sometimes we're only talking about five or ten minutes in the morning. We get up early anyway, big deal.

So, you know, I'll go to the gym 15 minutes later than I usually do that, you know. But that's not a problem. What had been difficult was when I was kind of holding it to myself as, okay, I'm doing this for Linda. But what happened was that over time, I began to really enjoy the experience. Because it's not just like, you know, well, we have to make this a significant, meaningful, intimate connection. It's like, okay, well, how are you? What's up? Just checking in like that

in ways that we don't do. Probably you don't do very much either when you're working in parallel lives together. You don't check in with each other. You know, just pause for a second. Hey, what's happening? How are you doing? You know, how are you feeling? This is where I am right now. And I found that that simple practice of just checking in with myself, letting you know where I am, finding out where you are, vice versa. And then whatever is up, oh, I'm kind of concerned about this, or I'm feeling really good about this or whatever. That's all. It's enough. So I began really feeling like, this is cool. This is good. I mean, this isn't just for Linda at that point. This is because I'm enjoying it. It's helpful.

I like it. It doesn't take long. And we're both benefiting from it. So that is kind of the nature of the process that I think a lot of couples have to go through. We all have to go through, which is that at first, change, there's some resistance to it. It's different. It throws me off of my schedule. I don't trust that it's going to be worthwhile, all that stuff. But if we can just try it and see,

sometimes it doesn't work out, but often I've found it does. And I have such a deep debt of gratitude that he stretched into my world to meet me where I really live, that I just want to do everything possible to support whatever his life goals are or his style of being in the world. And we renew our vows, the old ones, and we add new ones on our wedding anniversary and on Valentine's Day. And years ago, I vowed to be the guardian of his solitude because he likes to be alone. We're more extreme than a lot of couples to the degree that he's such a self-contained system and likes solitude so much and I'm the connection person. And so when I feel so full because we have so many mornings that are, you know, full soul tank, I just I feel very, very, very fulfilled by that.

Then I only want to stretch into his world and support him to have as many meditation retreat days and as much solitude as he wants. So it's the self-reinforcing system. Yeah, I love that. And it's interesting also that nobody's looking for a gold star. And I wonder if very often, I think a lot of us do. It's like, hey, I want you to acknowledge that I'm stretching into your world. I'm responding to it because, or I did the dishes and you didn't ask me, or I did whatever. It's like, you're looking for the gold star rather than let me just do this

because I know that it matters to the other person and have faith in the fact that they'll notice. Yes. And it will do something. And it'll come back. Yeah. It's all going to come back. We call it enlightened self-interest.

Do you know? Yeah. Everything that I give to support you and your dreams and your vision for your life and your purpose and your style of being in the world, I know and I just trust because we've had so many examples of this for so many years, it's all going to come pouring back on me. Yeah, so agree with that. I want to come full circle. So I always ask this question as we

wrap up the conversation, which is the name of this is Good Life Project. So if I offer that term out to both of you to live a good life, I'm curious what comes up. Why don't we start with you, Linda? It's all about love. I think love makes the world go round. And I think that our purpose in being on Earth is to evolve to become the most loving person that we can be. And so our close relationships are going to show us our dark side where we're not being as loving as we can be. And I just feel like it's my life mission to encourage people to use their closest relationships to rub off with the aggravation, the gunk that's around, you know, that beautiful diamond underneath,

the best of who we can be, the most loving that we can be, the most contributing to our community that we can be, the most creative, you know, alive and passionate person that we can be. So that's about hitting the high levels of well-being. Our relationships are the vehicle to be able to reach them. Yeah, I'm pretty much on the same page with Linda on that one. It sounds like such an easy, simple thing to do, just love. But as most of us know, experiences in life don't always encourage us to live with an open heart and to be expressive and open with our love for other people and to be generous to giving it to ourselves. And relationships, I have found, are the most direct means towards living openheartedly with a loving heart. And when that is what's the source of what's motivating us in our lives, then our experience of life is totally different

than when it's not. Because when it's not, everything that we're doing is some kind of direct or indirect effort to get more love. So when we're really supporting the generation of those feelings and actions within ourselves and between ourselves and others, the experience of life, regardless of what we're doing, is very, very different than it is when we're missing that. Beautiful. Thank you both. Thank you. Hey, thanks so much for listening. Beautiful. Thank you both. And you can actually do that now right from the podcast app on your phone. If you

have an iPhone, you just click on the reviews tab and take a few seconds and jam over there. And if you haven't yet subscribed while you're there, then make sure you hit the subscribe button while you're at it. And then you'll be sure to never miss out on any of our incredible guests or conversations or riffs. And for those of you, our awesome community who are on other platforms, any love that you might be able to offer sharing our message would just be so appreciated. Until next time, this is Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. Hey, thanks so much for listening. We love sharing real unscripted conversations and ideas that matter. And if you enjoy that too, and if you

enjoy what we're up to, I'd be so grateful if you would take just a few seconds and rate and review the podcast. It really helps us get the word out. You can actually do that now right from the podcast app on your phone. If you have an iPhone, you just click on the reviews tab and take a few seconds and jam over there. And if you haven't yet subscribed while you're there, then make sure you hit the subscribe button while you're at it. And then you'll be sure to never miss out on any of our incredible guests or conversations or riffs. And for those of you, our awesome community who are on other platforms, any love that you might be able to offer sharing our message would just be so appreciated. Until next time, this is Jonathan Fields signing off for Good Life Project. Compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

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