Good Life Project - Wu-Tang, Power & Possibility | Sophia Chang [BEST OF]

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

Sophia Chang is a force to be reckoned with. A soft-spoken French-lit major in college and the child of Korean immigrants raised in Vancouver, when she first heard "The Message" by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five everything changed. Taken by the mix of urgency, anger, and pride that was hip-hop in the 80s and 90s, Sophia rerouted her life to New York, quickly becoming a fixture in the music industry and hip-hop scene, and finding fast-family with the legendary Wu-Tang Clan.Over the years, Chang would end up not just a member of the Wu-Tang family, but also manage a number of the group's individual members, as well as other legends including A Tribe Called Quest, Raphael Saadiq, and D'Angelo. In 1995, she left the music business to train kung fu and manage a 34th Generation Shaolin monk, who would later become her partner and father of her two children, before returning to music. Now, after decades of being the force behind other amazing artists' stories, she's finally telling her own story in her breakout audiobook, The Baddest Bitch in the Room (https://amzn.to/3sQbE2S). We're so excited to share this Best Of conversation with you today.You can find Sophia at:Website : https://www.sophchang.com/Instagram : https://www.instagram.com/sophchangnyc/-------------Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://sparketype.com/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today in this best of conversation is Sophia Chang, or as she calls herself, the first Asian woman in hip hop. Back in the 90s, she became entrenched in the work and lives of the iconic nine person hip hop phenom Wu-Tang Clan, becoming not only family, but also over the years managing a number of the members' individual careers, as well as those of a tribe called Quest, Rafael, Sadiq, D'Angelo, and so many others. This was a huge departure from the place and the way that she grew up. Raised in Vancouver, the youngest kid of Korean immigrants, Sophia loved music, but never imagined she would actually build a living and a life around it. By high school, she was into new wave and punk. But the moment she heard Grandmaster

Flash and the Furious Fives, The Message, it was like something inside of her, a primal urge came alive. She was hooked by the beats, the lyrics, and the artists who were tapping the power of music to speak with so much truth. Sophia headed to New York and soon after found herself immersed in the music scene, befriending punk legends like Joey Ramone, working with the legendary Paul Simon, and then quickly dropping into the hip hop scene in the late 80s and 90s, where she'd not only build a decades long career in music, but also build a real family. In the middle of all of this, Sophia stepped out of the music business for about a dozen years to train in Kung Fu

and manage a 34th generation Shaolin monk, who she'd helped build into a global name while also becoming partners in life and work and raising two kids. And that relationship would eventually end, leaving Sophia in her early 40s, as she describes it, broke and stepping into a new season where she'd reclaim much of what made her come alive, rediscover music, and really reimagine what this next season of life would look like. A season where she'd stop telling the stories of others and for the first time, start telling the story of her own remarkable life. Much of this incredible story is detailed in her audio book, The Baddest Bitch in the Room.

I sat down with Sophia in the studio in New York in before times, but this conversation is as timely and relevant as ever. So we wanted to share it with you in this best of episode. So excited to share the conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. Pilots are hitmen. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die.

Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. So my mother, Tongsuk Chang, was born in Gyeonggi, North Korea in 1932. We share a birthday, which is kind of extraordinary. Yes, I was my mother's birthday gift. And she fled North Korea when she was 14. She was one of nine siblings, and her two brothers had preceded, the eldest children, the two oldest brothers had preceded her. Then she and her older sister were the next two age down, and they followed them. And the assumption was all of them would follow. And so she went on this harrowing, they went on this harrowing journey. They got to the train station they were supposed to get off at, she and her sister, and they got off a stop too early because there was a be escaping. And, you know, the country had already been kind of divided.

You know, the North would be communist and then the South would be, you know, with the Americans. And so a lot of people were fleeing. And she was also came from a relatively wealthy family. And they also knew what this means is all this is going to be taken away. So they get off at the wrong stop. They get taken in by the police and, you know, they're interrogated. There are two teenagers. I mean, she's 14. Her older sister is 16. They didn't arrange a story. They separate them. And of course, they don't come

up with the same story. And they said, OK, you're trying to escape. We're going to send you back on the first train tomorrow morning. And there was a man in the station who overheard it, and he was clearly somebody of great authority. And he said, you know what, I'll make sure they get back to the hotel, and in the meantime, I'll give them a tour of the city. And so he gave them a tour of the city. While they're walking around the city, they actually see the name of the hotelier that was supposed to sneak them south. And so they clocked it that night. They go to the hotel. My mother's sister gets incredibly ill. The police come the next morning to take them to the train station and they see how sick

she is. And they say, we'll give you a day to rest and we'll take you tomorrow morning. So that day they run, they figure out as ill as my aunt was, they get to the hotel, they find the guy in the dead of night. He sneaks them to a beach where they get on a boat with 30 other people on a tiny boat. And they cross. It's not that long of a journey, but it felt very long to my mother. And then they get to the other side. And my mother always says, I'd never seen trucks so big in my life because there were the American military trucks. And it's, what's fascinating is that there are lots of things that she doesn't remember, but this room, she remembers so clearly.

I think this is common, right? Like there are certain memories, especially if they're associated with trauma that you still see like it happened yesterday. So she escaped to the south. She and her sister joined the two brothers. The eldest brother goes back to the north to try to get the rest of the family, but it's all too late. The last boats are leaving and their mother sends him back and says, there's no way that we can all make it. There's a baby. You just have to go alone. And so it means that my mother did not see her parents or her other five siblings since she was 14. And she never will. And, you know, I asked her, where do you think they are?

And she said, if they are still alive, they're probably in labor camps right now. And I can't, you know, my kids are 17 and 19. Do you have children? Yeah. How old are yours? Similar age. Yeah, okay. So, I mean, 14.

Think about them never seeing you again and. So, I mean, 14. Think about them never seeing you again and never seeing, you know, anybody again. So it's a really devastating story. And then she met my father in the South at Seoul National University. And he had also gone through a harrowing experience when he was younger because of the Japanese annexation. And, you know, my father spoke impeccable, God rest his soul, impeccable Japanese. So all the Koreans of my parents' generation, they all learned Japanese. They spoke it, they read it, they wrote it. And he was one of very few Koreans who was allowed to go to a Japanese specific school because he was so smart and because he was specifically gifted in mathematics.

And, you know, there was a teacher there that really favored him and did not know that he wasn't Japanese because he spoke so well. And when he found out, he was just enraged and would do everything to humiliate my father. He would funny movies and blue skies and all of that. You know, I took my mother, my mentor, Michael Austin, lives in California and he has this, the family has a beautiful house in Malibu. And I took my mother there and we were walking on the beach. Now, my mother is 87 now. She's probably 85 at the time, but she's an octogenarian. And we were walking along the beach and she was picking up everything and going, oh, I've never seen seaweed like this. I've never seen kelp like this, like picking up rocks. And she was like an explorer. She was like a Boy Scout

or a Girl Scout. And I don't remember the last time I saw my mother that curious. And it was so touching to take her to a place that felt like discovery for her. And also that she still has that in her, you know, that she's lived 85 years and she was still like, oh my God, this is so cool. Like a sense of wonder. Exactly. A sense of wonder. And my children are there. So it's three generations of us living this way, you know, and watching them respond to her curiosity was really gorgeous. So yes, she met my father in university, and they got married. My And then my mother and my brother followed. And then I was born. I was the first in my family, extended family, born out both sides, born outside of Korea. I was also the first and maybe still to this day, the only one named in English. So I was named Sophia. And my Korean name is a Koreanization, so to speak, of my English name as opposed to, you know, exactly. So my Korean name is Chang Sohee. So Sohee is the translation of Sophia. But my father named me after a Polish mathematician.

I'm curious, what was the reason they decided that you would start out with an English name? You know, that's a really good question. I think it was probably really significant to my parents that they were, that they had done this migration. Yeah. And that, that they thought, you know, for our first child born here, we will give her an English name. You know, remember that my father has already been in Vancouver now for a couple of years, and he has learned English and then teaches mathematics for 40 years. And I think that they probably, without ever saying it, maybe not without even articulating it to themselves, they probably wanted us to assimilate because they understood how difficult it would be. So that's why I lost my language. My brother and I both, Korean was our first language and we both lost it dividing line, which represents a bigger shift in almost like identity.

Yes, exactly. Or at least superficial identity. Exactly, exactly. How old were you? That said, I love my name. Because it means wisdom, yes. That is pretty cool, actually. How old were you when you first learned the story of your parents?

So I was probably nine or 10. What prompted it? I think I asked my mother, you know? And the detail that I give in my memoir, I only learned in writing my memoir. What I knew when I was 10 was we escaped at 14 and we never saw the rest of our family again. And my mother never really went into detail. Now, what I have learned since then is that apparently this is common for people who have been through traumas. They don't really like to talk about it. However, when my mother told me both times, first in the shortened version, and then second, as I was writing in the more lengthy version, there was no emotion. My mother is, she's just the strongest person I know. It doesn't mean

that she doesn't have emotion. It doesn't mean that she doesn't feel. But it didn't seem difficult for her to tell me the story. Yeah, well, I guess it's, you know, 50 some odd years removed at that point. But yeah, I'm always curious about how those stories get transferred to the next generation and then why, what prompts it. And it's fascinating also that you got just enough to satisfy the interest of a 10-year-old. Of a 10-year-old, that's right. At that moment in time and also not cause trauma. That's right, yeah.

And it took, you know, like a long time later for you to go back. I wonder, you know, what would have happened if you pressed her back then? Yeah, that's a really interesting notion. I don't really know, but, you know, one of the conversations that I had with a very smart girlfriend of mine who's Korean-American, first-gen Korean immigrant, she said, you know, Sophia, we never talk to our parents about their internal lives. I mean, did you ever ask your parents, are you happy? What were your dreams? Are you, you know, are you doing it? Did you ever? Of course we didn't. Never. And that's not a good or a bad thing. That's just how the fuck we grew up. Do you know what I'm saying? And especially as immigrants, you know, we weren't thinking about that. We were just, you know, my parents were just thinking about how do we do this the best that we can, you know? And so we just, you know, I say this at the end of my memoir, I asked my brother just in the last few months, do you think mom is happy? And he goes, I don't know how to answer that, Sophia. And I don't think mom knows how to answer that.

And again, like I said, it doesn't mean that she doesn't have joy, but a conversation around, am I happy? Am I living an actualized life? Am I fulfilled? My parents didn't talk like that. I don't think any of the Asian immigrants of my parents' generation spoke like that. I do. And my children are very, very aware of my internal life, but I'm just a different generation. Yeah. I think it's a generational thing and also what you've been through. But for sure, you know, I feel like we're both kind of like on the edge of Gen X slash boomer. Yeah. We're kind of in the cusp, right? Right. So like we can't figure in the cusp, right? Right. So like we can't figure out whether we're, you know, like there's something really big out there for us or whether just like life is entirely nihilistic.

Yeah. But we weren't taught, you know, really from a young age, like go after meaning and purpose and self-actualize. When do you think that conversation started? Because it feels kind of recent to me. Because I feel like even 40-year-olds don't talk like this. I think it's more sort of the millennial. I hate using the broad terms like millennials, but I do feel like it's sort of like people who are in their mid-30s-ish is where it started to touch down. So somewhere in the late 90s. Right. And if you think about our parents, right? I mean, and their generation before that, it was largely about staying alive.

Yeah. Because of war. Right. Right. Exactly. So you understand why it wasn't about like, how can I self-actualize and transcend and find joy? Yeah. It was keep your head down, stay safe, stay healthy. No question. Put food on the table. No question. Yeah. But it is interesting to go back now.

Like when you look at the research on happiness, young people generally feel like, you know, that's the happiest moment in their lives. But you actually look at the research. What do they feel like is the happiest people when they're younger? Okay. Okay. Right. The research shows that actually we go through a window, sort of like a dip in the middle of life where we get less happy. Like 40? Yeah. Okay. But the happiest part of our lives is actually sort of like 60s and on for most people. Because you settle into a place of, kind of like you've done a lot of what you feel like you're here to do and you've been knocked around. And I think it's a place of just more,

I feel like you have greater access to gratitude. That's a pretty way of putting it. Right, and I think also that, I mean, I'm only six years away from 60. I think that for me, I mean, I've always been a happy person, but certainly as I get older, life gets better. A huge part of that is children, you know, which is a privilege because we get to live again through our children. Part of it too is that I've been in love three times and that's an embarrassment of riches. Some people, God forbid, may not ever experience it. And I had a mighty, mighty love with Yanmei, you know, that was transformative and transcendent and sublime and uplifting and all of those things. But certainly, there's not, I mean, I'm in a constant

state of self-examination, self-interrogation, self-criticism, self-renewal, self-love, and therefore self-actualization, right? But despite this constant worrying of this internal machine, I'm also très bien dans la peau, as the French would say. I'm very good in my skin. I'm keenly aware of who I am. I know my frailties and I know my strengths. And I'm very happy with who I am. And I think it's to your point, it's about the fact that I've lived 54 years and I've had plenty of triumphs, but I've fucked up plenty too and had embarrassments and humiliations and failures, abject failures. But at this point in my life, I don't regret anything. And nothing is truly a failure to me because everything is an opportunity to learn.

And so if I learn, that means I've received a lesson. And if I've received a lesson, then I've received a gift. And how could I regret that? Can't argue with any of that. Let's jump into some of the moments along and some of those experiences. So you ended up growing up in Vancouver. Into the music scene as a kid, but not the way that you eventually were into music. Right.

Tell me, in the early days, what was it for you? What was your jam? When I was a kid? Yeah. Disco. Disco was the first genre that I remember loving. So in 1976, I believe, is kind of when it really starts popping. I'm 11 years old.

But since I was a child, like I remember dancing at three, very clear memory of dancing. So I always loved music and the house was always filled with music because my father loved opera. He loved classical music, but he also, you know, we heard chanteuse like we heard Edith Piaf, right? And we heard lots and lots of beautiful music. So I always had this attachment to music, but disco, I think what was enthralling about disco was that it was also dance music. And that was a lot of fun. And then as I got into high school, it was new wave and punk. But I was primarily a new waver.

And then in the 12th grade, I heard the message and everything turned around. Message by Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. And my whole, my head was done in. What was it about that that was so different? You know, I've thought about this a lot. I've talked about it a lot. I've written about it. First of all, just as a song,

even if you don't like hip hop, you could never deny the power of the song. The beats are amazing. And then the lyrics. hearing about this other world that is so concrete jungle really kind of opened my imagination to, oh, it's, you know, Vancouver is really a singular, a single experience. But in retrospect, I think as I re-examine it and probe further, I, you know, essentially, I was a yellow girl growing up in a white world and I wanted to be white. And what I heard in the message, and tell their own story? Because for me growing up in Vancouver, the only other people of color I saw were the other members of the Korean community and then some Chinese people and some Indian folks, but had very little interaction. And certainly none of them were artists, right? So I wasn't exposed to any of that.

And so what do I see? The representation I see of people of color is media. So it's Hollywood and it's magazines and it's advertising. And all of that is through the white lens. And that's not particularly kind, right? And it's not particularly broad and there's no love there. So when I heard the message, I realized now like, oh my God, because I didn't grow up on R&B or jazz or gospel. I didn't grow up on that stuff. And so I hear this song and I realize, oh, there's such a sense of urgency. I mean, clearly there's poetry and I'm a French lit major. So I responded to that, but there's a sense of urgency. There's a sense of anger, but also the pride. Because the Asians that I knew, the Koreans that I knew, they didn't strike me as being proud of being Asian. None of us. I mean, I was a little bit ashamed of it for sure.

I don't know that the other folks were, but I didn't feel like anybody was, you know, there was no such thing as an Asian American Studies department group on campus. None of that happened. Not back when I was in school in the early 80s. So it really resonated deeply with me. And that was my gateway into hip hop. And it's a song that changed my life. Changed my life. Mayday, mayday.

We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun on January 24th. We'll be right back. Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. When did actually, so the message comes out, what? 86 maybe? Mid-80s, right?

Yeah, yeah. And then right around that time, so like we got Grandmaster Flash coming out of the Bronx. Run DMC coming out of Hollis, right? And what was fascinating to me was like, this was because you're the same age, so like similar musical experience in terms of like what we were listening to back then.

Were you listening to punk in New Way too? A little bit of Ramones. Yeah. Like everybody kind of had to at that point. Just so I could like pretend I had a little bit of an edge to it. You're like middle class white kid coming up on my mind, like, yeah, I listen to the Rhodes.

So it's like, I had to have just a touch of it. But, you know, it was fascinating. It was like, to me, how quickly those early voices crossed over into mainstream music. I feel like they jumped the charts really fast. And so everybody was listening. And so those stories start to enter the mainstream. Do you think that that happened beyond New York?

I have no context for it, so I don't know. But it's a really curious question. Because in New York, it definitely did. Yeah, it dominated, I'm sure. It was the soundtrack of the city. A hundred percent. And then that inspires so much more. And I remember I was actually in college in the 80s and I was a DJ, a club DJ.

And we go from spinning like house, you know, like Exposé and Shannon and all these, you know, like stuff like this. And then that stuff starts to drop and you're like, oh, what just happened here? Yeah, exactly. It was a mutation. It was a major shift. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I was out of the booth at the time, but I remember then, was it 90 Fear of a Black Planet drops? Oh my God.

That's so funny. Somebody in the gym literally today was wearing a Fear of a Black Planet t-shirt. Yeah. And like, that was like, okay, everything is different now. Yeah. Yeah. The same experience for you? Yeah. And you know, Spike Lee's making movies, you know, and that's that totally like shifts the tectonic plates as well. Yeah. For me, and I'm sure that my being drawn to hip hop was absolutely tied to identity. And so I hear the message. I moved to New York. I get this great job doing A&R, being a talent scout at Jive Records.

I'm working with some of the best talent in the industry. I get to sign my own artists, and I have create and forge these really great friendships. And, you know, the hip-hop community welcomed me and embraced me. And that was a huge privilege because I'm a Korean-Canadian French lit major, right? Do I really belong? Do I deserve to be here?

I asked myself all those questions. But hip-hop didn't care. They were like, yeah, so, you know, come on in. But the really, the turning point for me in terms of my life, my future, and my identity was meeting Wu-Tang. That was the big bang. So paint that picture for me. So I'm doing 1991, 92, 93. 92 and 93, I guess I'm doing A&R Jive Records. I get the Wu-Tang Clan demo like everybody in the industry did. There was already a buzz around the song Protect Your Neck, which had been released independently. I listened to it. I love it. But none of us can sign Wu-Tang Clan because the RZA famously asked for a non-exclusive deal, which means that when you sign the group, no label is not going to have the exclusive

right to release the solo artist. Was anybody giving that deal? No way. Right. Ever. And this is for a group that had not produced anything. That's right. Nine guys.

Right. Nine guys. And I actually don't know that anybody has gotten it since. Like he really fucked up the industry. And what happened was that every group thereafter said, we want a non-exclusive like Rizzo. And we're all like, everybody was like, no fucking way. That said, I think that it was a really good call for Loud Records because Wu-Tang Clan really put Loud Records on the map. And so I couldn't sign them, but then –

Because you're with Jive still. That's right. I'm with Jive, and there's no way they were going to let me do that. And then I get another demo for a group called the Gravediggers, which RZA co-founded with Prince Paul, who was the creative impetus behind De La Soul. And it's what they called Horror Corps. And this group I could sign. And so I met with him because I wanted, I really wanted to sign them, but I also wanted to know, I want to meet the mind behind Wu-Tang. And, you know, we met and we just hit it off like a house on fire. And I... What was the context of the first meeting? So I heard the demo and I called the phone number, which I remember to this day. Is it like a number on the tape?

Yes. Like handwritten. Right. And we go to this restaurant that was called Locks Around the Clock at the time. And it's changed over probably 30 times since then. Northeast corner, 21st and 6th. And I ate a burger and we were talking. And we talked first about the Gravediggers, then we talked

about Wu-Tang, and then just about life, about family. And you know, RZA is a deeply intellectually curious person. And it was like going on a journey. You know, I have said many times that I believe that RZA is the Bruce Lee of hip hop. And what I mean by that is he took all of these different traditions, musical traditions, and then he blended them into his own style. You know, Bruce Lee founded Jeet Kune Do. And I think that that could probably be said of other hip hop producers. But what I don't think you could say about any other hip hop producer is that they are also philosopher. I mean, the extraordinary thing about Bruce Lee that that part of that has to do with the fact that he's Chinese and grew up in a tradition that was probably steeped in philosophy. Like, I remember my father saying to us, every Asian is raised loosely in the, you know, in the traditions of Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism.

Just like here, there's generally kind of a Christian ethic going on, right? So I just remember thinking, oh my God, he is so, he's one of the smartest motherfuckers I've ever met. Were you surprised by that? Because here's a guy who came up in tough neighborhood in Staten Island, aka, like, especially back then, the Forgotten Borough. And still a little forgotten. Right. But also, I mean, for him to be so studied and so deep into not just, you know, like I know like him and the whole crew really loved martial arts and Kung Fu, but it wasn't just the movements.

Right. It was the teachings. It was the philosophy. No question. I mean. Yeah, the ethos. Yeah. Yeah.

I was surprised by, and I know you're not asking this. I certainly wasn't surprised by how smart he was. Yeah. But I was surprised by how expansive his worldview was. And, I mean, he's an autodidact for sure. And, I mean, most artists when they go on tour, especially when they go around the world, they kind of are looking for comfort. You know, find me the food that's kind of the closest to the food that I eat. He's not that person.

In addition to being intellectually curious, he is also culturally curious and spiritually curious. And so if he gets to a new country, he's going to do his exploration and he will learn there. He is like a giant sea sponge and he learns so much. So I think I was more surprised by just the behemoth nature of his mind and the experience that he had created for himself in reading so voraciously. We should probably also just say a touch more about who RZA is and also what Wu-Tang is. So the RZA is the founder and they call him the abbot of the Wu-Tang Clan. And Wu-Tang Clan are probably undisputedly the greatest hip-hop group of all time. They came out in 1993. And at the time, the West Coast was really on the come up.

When I first got in 1987, people weren't paying that much attention to anything outside of New York. But by 1993, you know, you have Dr. Dre, you have NWA, you have Easy, Cypress Hill, and then Wu-Tang comes along. And there was a kind of a sense of pride for us on the East Coast. Like, yeah, they, they kind of brought it back. But they were also just as huge cultural movement. Like I, you know, they're, they exposed a lot of the country and the world, frankly, to martial arts movies, but also to Hong Kong cinema, action cinema. I think that if it wasn't for Wu-Tang Clan, we wouldn't have Rush Hour. I think that if it wasn't for Wu-Tang Clan, we wouldn't have the success of Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon. I just don't think people would have been paying as much attention. Yeah.

So it wasn't just about them and their music. It was about the effectively becoming cultural gatekeepers that opened the door to a wider audience. And ambassadors, yeah, absolutely. And evangelists. Yeah. Yeah. So you end up connected with Arisa very quickly

and with everybody else in the group. And it sounds like it's like just this instant love fest. Yeah. Yeah. else in the group and it sounds like it's like just this instant love fest yeah yeah um you know the interesting thing is that when i look back i kind of wonder why me though there were so many people around them and how do you answer that i i can't uh but i did ask rayquan and ghost this question and ghost was like it was god's plan so you were supposed to be with us and rayquan said something very very similar like we needed you and i never thought they felt that way i just felt like i was this

little girl that they let tag along everywhere with them. And I think in answering that question, and what I really hope that you gathered from my memoir, is that I really wanted to tell people about the depth of their humanity. There are so many other ways that the Wu-Tang Clan story has been told in depth. But there's only one Sophia Chang. And I'm the only person that can tell my story vis-a-vis them. I'm the only person that can look at them through this lens because it is so uniquely mine.

You know, when I met them, because I didn't start managing Old Dirty Bastard, God Rest His Soul, until 95. I met them in 93. So for the first two years, there was no transaction. I wasn't dating any of them. I wasn't giving them jobs. I didn't manage any of them. I hadn't signed any of them. I wasn't getting any of them work or anything. So it was a purely, it was just about being friends. It was clean. Exactly. And so there was no leverage, right? There was none of that.

And when I think about at the time, you know, we knew every, the industry knew from the demo that they were going to be huge. We just knew. It's just, my God, it's après le déluge, right? It's just this kind of like this storm, the tsunami that happens. And for whatever reason, you know, they plucked me out of the crowd. And so I say that the hip-hop community had welcomed and embraced me, but Wu-Tang claimed me. And that's a very different feeling. You know, Method Man was the DNA. Whereas they really embraced me and claimed me in a way that was so profound and also extremely demonstrative. You know, I say that you don't really know me unless you know me as a mother and you've seen me around my children.

And I would say also by extension, unless you see me around Wu-Tang, there's also a really big part of me that you don't know. Like once you see me around Wu-Tang Clan and see me interacting with them, you kind of go, oh, I get it. First of all, I'm 5'4 1⁄2". I'm above 15 dripping wet. Six of them are six feet tall and better. And they're strong. And to some people menacing, clearly not to me. And so it just must have looked so anomalous, like this little yellow girl, like what is she

doing? Like what is going on? And to this day, I am often the only woman in the room with them. And I'm granted this incredibly privileged space with them. But more significant than that is, you know, again, I'm in, there's cultural denial going on, there's cultural rebellion going on. And it wasn't until I met Wu-Tang and they kind of showed the world and Sophia Chang, the beauty and the profundity of Asian culture, right? They introduced me to John Woo. I started watching John Woo movies. I fell in love with Chow Yun-Fat and they, you know, they introduced me to Kung Fu movies. I started watching Kung Fu movies. And as a result, I train in Kung Fu. And I happened to train in Kung Fu with the 34th

generation Shaolin monk named Shui Yan Ming. I leave the music business to run his temple and to train 15 hours a week. We're business partners, we become romantic partners, and then we have children. So when I look at my children, I wouldn't have these children if it wasn't for Wu-Tang Clan. And that's huge. And I came back around to me and being proud of my heritage because of Wu-Tang Clan. They took me through that chamber. They led me through that chamber with love and grace. So when they said to you, it's God's plan, Soph. Yeah. Kind of feels like it is. Yeah. I mean, what are the odds that I like just kind of bury myself in the Wooniverse and they're called Wu-Tang Clan, they call Staten Island Shaolin, and then my boyfriend is a Shaolin monk. Like, what are the fucking odds?

And then I introduce them to him. And then I produce a tour to go to the Shaolin Temple on its 1500th anniversary. And RZA comes. And so I take RZA to Shaolin Temple. And I take him to Wu-Tang Temple. And at Wu-Tang Temple, the abbot of Wu-Tang clan meets the actual abbot of Wu-Tang Temple, and they have this beautiful exchange, and the abbot of Wu-Tang Temple gives the abbot of Wu-Tang Clan Taoist music. I mean, if you wrote this in a movie, I would say, bullshit, forget it. Go back to the drawing board.

That's garbage. Because it could never happen. But it did. What was it like for you to be there in that moment and be a part of that? I, you know, taking RZA to Shaolin Temple, and he was the first artist in 1,500 years to ever perform at the gates of the Shaolin Temple. And then to take him to Mile High, Wu-Tang Mountain. Of course, I, as a practitioner and my husband, so to speak, as a Shaolin monk, and I've seen all the movies and, you know, Crouching Tiger was shot at the Temple of the Purple Cloud, which is Wu-Tang. So all of the cultural context and

all the excitement I have because I've read the books and I've seen the movies and, oh my God, the plum blossom steaks and, oh my God, doors and everything so there's that level which is exciting and amazing as a practitioner and as a fan but I think more profound was watching RZA and thinking this man was one of 11 children raised by a single mother in two-bedroom apartment in the projects of Staten Island. And part of his childhood and his dream and his escape was disappearing into kung fu movies. And again, he names his group Wu-Tang Clan after Wu-Tang Mountain. And he calls his bro Shaolin. And I bring him here.

And so there's this extraordinary third person, you could call it, experience of watching him get that. But in the end, too, I would not have been there if it wasn't for him. So did I arrange the trip? Of course I did. Exactly. That's right. That's right. Right.

This cyclical blessing type of thing. Exactly. Yeah. You mentioned it wasn't just you and there was also Yuming. Yes. Which was a, I mean, it was a chapter in your life, you know, where you meet this 34th generation Yes. this thing that had been such an essential part. It's like it beat your heart for so long. And you step into this relationship, you step into the world of practicing and training hours and hours a day,

but also partnering with this person in life and having children with this person. And also along with that, turning your genius for developing ideas and stories and people and brands loose on him and on Shaolin and on Kung Fu and saying, this will be my devotion for this season. So your entire life becomes wrapped up in the person, the entity, the idea, the experience of Shaolin and Kung Fu and being a mom and a partner, which is really good for a is that surprising because I think it's pretty common. I also think particularly once you have children, especially in New York.

But yes, I mean, for 30 years I was in the service of extraordinarily talented men. And when you manage people, you really are in the service industry. And you must, you should subjugate all your needs and desires to what best serves them. That's what the best managers do. Doesn't mean you don't get paid and getting taken care of, but that's your primary function. And so to do that with the man that I was in love with and who was the father of my children meant that I really had all my eggs in one temple. And, you know, if I knew then what I know now, I don't think I would have changed anything. You know, it was an amazing, you know, I consider that one of, you know, the second act of my life. And I've been fortunate to have many. And I don't regret anything. You know, Jonathan, I don't live with regrets, philosophically, except when I'm a shitty mother. And we did this beautiful thing together. And look, there's no way I could have done it without him. Obviously, he is the talent, but

there's no way he could have done what he did without me. There's no way. He would not have met RZA without Sophia Chang. People are like, oh yeah, RZA introduced you. I'm like, no, no, no fucking way. We are not being revisionist here. Let's be very clear. February 3rd, I met Yan Ming. February 10th, 1995, I started training. And later that year, I introduced him to Riz and Jiz and the rest of Wu-Tang Clan. But I also believe that those were fateful.

All of these things were fateful. And I think it's entirely possible that Riz and Yan Ming knew each other in a past lifetime and I knew Riz in a past lifetime. And so coming out, you know, with the dissolution of the relationship with Yan Ming, yeah, it's like anything, it's heartbreaking and it's disappointing and there's some humiliation in there because he's a big fish in a small pond. And a lot of my identity is tied to him. I mean, I never truly lost sight of myself. And I, you know, since I was a child, my mother tells me I've always been very self-assured. So it's not like I lost sight of who Sophia Chang was, or I lost my confidence, but I certainly tethered my identity to him because I believed so deeply in him as a martial artist, as a spiritual leader, as a Chan Buddhist master, as a visionary who wanted to replicate the Shaolin Temple in America. And I also watched thousands of people's lives transformed at our temple.

I saw a man in his, probably around my age, in his mid-50s, who couldn't go up the stairs, the subway stairs, without huffing and puffing and having to stop. And he started training, and he became fit as a fiddle and one of our best students. I watched people who went from being really kind of shy and withdrawn to being far more outgoing and confident. You know, we made serious, serious changes. And being part of something that was that transformative for so many people was really powerful.

And I'm really grateful for it. And then it just didn't make sense to me anymore, especially after the children. You know, as the mother, we really take on when they're young, we really take on everything, the bulk of the work. And so then I felt like, okay, I manage the temple. I manage Yan Ming. I manage our household. I manage the children. I manage where they go to school, which dentist, which doctor, all of that kind of stuff. And it started to feel a little suffocating. And that's when I decided I kind of need to break out professionally and did some stuff in fashion and started managing RZA.

And then eventually the marriage, you know, the relationship just fell apart altogether. Yeah. Mayday, mayday, we've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die. Don't shoot if we need him! Y'all need a pilot?

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You find yourself at that point in your early 40s, single, two kids. Broke. Right. I mean, you have this incredible sort of history of accomplishment and power and being able to do amazing things that nobody else can do in the music industry. And then you have this incredible season of astonishing accomplishments, you know, like in the world of martial arts and building the Shaolin Temple. And then you move into this window in your mid forties where it's sort of like, okay, I kind of need to entirely recreate everything again.

I know you describe in your memoir, like you're in this season of life and you're living in New York trying to support two kids and you're taking money from your parents every month to pay rent. Yeah, at 43. We didn't know this was going to happen. Right, being 43 years old in that position. I mean, it's kind of devastating. Yeah. This is what my television show is about. Yeah, I mean, I essentially wake up at 42, and the rug has been pulled out from under me.

And I'm not a victim. I helped make that rug. It's not like I was blindsided by a falling piece of scaffolding in New York City. I created this world. And when I walked away from it, in one fell swoop, I lose my husband. Again, we were never married, but it's easier than calling him my partner. I lose my husband, my best friend, my business partner, the father of my Temple was also my dream. And so all of that is gone. And yes, then, well, okay, Sophia Chang, what the fuck are you going to do now? And you have to rebuild yourself. Now, again, I have the privilege of a middle-class safety net. I am very well connected. I am super smart. I am super smart I am super confident I will say that even through all of that I was never devastated I never had nights where I cried myself to sleep I never had mornings

where I couldn't get out of bed I'm just not that animal I just that nothing gets me down like that. But yeah, of course it was sad. You know, I say in my memoir, there is no loneliness like the loneliness you feel in a relationship when you remember what it used to be. You know, somebody asked me, so what's it like to be in love? And I said, what's it like to be in love? It's like you swim in and out of each other. It's this gorgeous feeling of like being spiritually and physically and emotionally and psychically intertwined, like the yin and the yang symbol. And when that falls apart, you're not even in the same pools anymore. And because you experience this deep and satisfying love, when it goes, it's so cold. And so I had to rebuild myself. And I just do what I always do.

I don't know, fuck it. Call people, figure it out. You know, I went to temp agencies. I went to headhunters. None of that bore fruit. Fucking none of it. Well, you don't have the traditional resume. That's exactly right.

In that window in your life, it's like, well, I was the woo whisperer. I built the Sheldon Temple. I worked at a fast food place maybe. It's like, huh, what does this line up with? Exactly. It's a little bit unusual. So I just called my friends. And again again to talk about my mentor, Michael Austin. He was always there. You know, I think to this day, every time he's in a room and has a meeting in the back of his mind is, how can I bring Sophia into this? For me and for him, but for me, you know, especially when I was struggling. You know, I know that that hurt him. He is, you know, he's kind of like my godfather that way. And our families are very close. And so, you know, having somebody like that is really special. And so he said, you know, Nile Rodgers, legendary producer, and a couple of other partners

and I are starting this management company. We'd like you to come and run it. And that was, you know, just the life preserver I needed. And it was also an entree back into the music business. And then one of our first clients was Raphael Sadiq. And Raphael gave me the gift back of music. So for the time, all the time that I was with Yan Ming, and that's not, this is not his fault. It was mine. I wasn't really thinking about new music. I mean, the truth of the matter is apparently statistically, most of us stopped listening to new music at 30. And that was absolutely the case for me. And music has, you know, again, since I was three, music has been my constant, she's my lover and she's my best friend and even when I put her away in the closet she's always just waiting there for me and so managing

Raphael was like oh my god I haven't felt this energized and excited about new music in so long and no no you know probably no coincidence that the album that I managed him for, I consider to be his magnum opus. The way I see it was his homage to Motown and Stax, right? So there was a familiarity in that for me as well. So that, that sort of brings you back into stepping back into life on your terms in a different way, reconnecting you with music, putting you back in on a path of financial being okay. And which eventually also leads to, you know, you doing that for a while, you getting involved in A&R, but not sort of like straight A&R more in the business. Right. On the, on the administrative side. Yes.

Right. And I guess you, your kids are growing up, which it seems like for you, like really the heartbeat of everything you've done for the last 18, 20 years, it always points back to that. Has to. And it does for you too. Of course it does. I mean, you know, I say in my memoir, the second I gave birth, two things were very clear. Number one, I would die for my child. You know, you hear people say that all the time. But I think until you have kids, you don't really understand what that means.

And number two, I would kill for my child. And I am not a homicidal person. I don't, I've never punched anybody. I think I would feel really sick if I even kicked or punched somebody. But oh God, you come for my kids. I will fucking eviscerate you. And yes, I mean, every hustle, every move, every deal I negotiate, every meeting that I'm in, you know, I just did a week of pitch meetings about this television show that I'm referencing last week in LA.

And yeah, I'm thinking about how is this good for my kids? Not about how they're going to be a part of it, but this is going to be good for my kids. You know, I'm thinking, okay, September, 2020, I will have an empty nest and my daughter will be off to college and I will have more time to focus on something like this. Right. And I call my kids, and I tell them about the meetings, and I met this person today, and it went really well. And, you know, you know this because your kids are this age. Like, oh, that's great, Mommy. I'm so happy for you. I'm so proud of you.

First of all, again, nothing we would have ever said to our parents. But, you know, with the memoir, my kids are, I mean, of course I care about what everybody thinks. And of course I care what my friends and what my mother and what my brother think. But nobody more than my children. And they were so delighted. And they came to the party. My daughter does not like parties. She came to the launch party.

My son was there. And they were just like, Mommy, we are so proud of you. Because they also know what their mother did for 30 years. They watched me do it with their father. And I did it well. And I did it gladly. And now it's them going, yay, mommy, it's your turn. Yeah.

And also, I mean, part of my curiosity, it sounds like you're also, you've been fairly transparent with everything you've been through. Oh God, with my kids? Yeah. Oh yeah, totally. So it's not like all of a sudden you're revealing all of this new stuff to them.

It's sort of like they've been alone for the ride with you. Oh, they have. Yes. I mean, how I'm talking to you is how I've talked to my children literally since they were born. I've never dumbed down my vocabulary. I didn't curse at the time but now I just curse all the time and

when I left their father I was very transparent with them about being broke and when I talk to them about it now they're like mommy we never felt it the only reason we thought about it was because you said it but I really wanted to be clear with them

that I was trying my best and that there are certain things that we can't do. But the truth of the matter is my kids were never those kids that were like, we want to go to Hawaii. I want this. We want that. Why is our house so small? Why can't we blah, blah, blah? My kids were never really like that. My kids aren't spoiled like that. I mean, I didn't have the money to spoil them and I don't have the

constitution to spoil my children either. But you know, stuff like we only went to movies at the AMC theaters before noon because it's half price. We snuck in all of our snacks. That's also an immigrant thing. Like even when I become rich, I'm never going to fucking pay for movie theater popcorn. I'm not doing that shit. It's just an affront. And they just, you know, but they were always right there with me. And so supportive. And you know, my daughter, she lives with me full time now. She often pulls me off the ledge like something will happen. Like the other night I broke a vase and I was like, fuck, fuck, fuck. She's like, mommy.

It's OK. It's just a vase, you know. children as caretakers and how they take care of you, but you also see how they will take care of their own children should they choose to have them. And that's an amazing transition. Like my, my son is going to school upstate and he was so excited. He's in his sophomore year and he said, let's go apple picking, you know, let's go apple picking. And he did all the research and he chose the orchard. And he said, you know, meet when you get off the train, meet me at this grocery store and we'll buy food for a picnic. And these are the restaurants we can go to. He's never done that before because first of all, his mother is a producer and a manager, and I am the expert on

logistics and movements. And it was so gorgeous just to say, you know what, sweet pea, you do it because he wanted to. And it's such a delight. You know, my girlfriend, Kimmy Yam, she used to work at Asian Voices HuffPost and now she's at NBC. And she said, Sophia, the thing that I've heard you say that I've never heard any other person say, when you talk about your children, you talk about the fact that they are good people. That's all I care about. Good, kind, just, empathetic, progressive, voices for the voiceless, defenders of the weak. Where they go to college, I don't give a shit. What they do for a living, I don't care. I'll make money. Do the thing that you're passionate about. And I think that this

is how I am the bridge generation of Asian immigrants. Because my parents were extraordinary. They let me do whatever I wanted and supported me in that. But most Asian immigrants, the children of Asian immigrants were not told, you want to be a sculptor? Go, we'll support you. Because that's not what they come over here for. They don't, you know, they come over here for security. And so when you do something that's creative and therefore kind of unsound, they're not going to do that. But for me, all I care about is that my children are good people that they understand that we're here to be in the service of others and that i will do whatever i can to support their endeavors as long as they do those things yeah as we sit here um

it feels like you're in the middle of this new season too, where you spend so much time supporting others. You spend so much time telling the stories of others, building on behalf of others. And now you're stepping into this season of, no, this is my story. This is my value. This is me stepping out and saying the story that I've lived, that I'm continuing to live and telling as moment by moment has value. And I want to push that forward. Nobody else. What does that feel like?

Amazing. You know, I look back and I essentially helped extraordinarily talented storytellers for 30 years. And I truly think there's nobody better at it than me. But I realize that the reason that I'm so good at it is because I myself am a storyteller. You know, a dear friend of mine, she's a Hollywood producer, television producer, incredibly smart and super experienced. And I spoke to her the other day and she listened to my memoir for the second time. She said, you know, Sophia, I have read many, many, many, many scripts. I have watched so much television and I've produced so many shows and you are a storyteller and you're an amazing storyteller. And certainly my proximity to storytellers has made me better at it.

And this is how I feel. Once I decided, once I was told write a book and once I could wrap my head around how this was not an exercise in narcissism and self-aggrandizement and self-enrichment, but in fact a way that I could be in service of others and actually change the world because I think I'm fucking changing the world. Then the dam breaks. Then I realize, oh shit, there's no limit to the ways that I can tell my story. I mean, I'm going to be a Peagot. I will win a Pulitzer. I will win an Emmy. I will win a Grammy. Listen to me, 2021, February, 2021. If I don't win a fucking Grammy, I'm pulling an ODB. I'm bum rushing that stage. I'm snatching out of the hands of whoever the fuck it is. I will win an Oscar and I will win a Tony. I will do a one-woman show, there is no doubt in my mind. I'll do all of these things and they will all be around my story. And again, because I now understand how my story can be inspiring to others. Very, very talented and smart comedian and writer, Hari Kondabolu, an Indian man,

interviewed me, also child of immigrants. And he interviewed me for Studio 360. And at the end of the interview, he said, you know, Sophia, my only wish is that as a 14-year-old boy growing up in New York City, that I knew that in the middle of all the music that was defining my youth, there was an Asian. And that really broke my heart because I chose to meet Anonymous. There was one point where I scrubbed my images off Google, like, can you please take that down? I didn't want to be in the spotlight. I worked with the people in the spotlight and I was very comfortable with that. And again, I don't have regrets about it, but now I understand that I did pay a price, that I could have been inspiring to

somebody like Hurry. And I've heard it from other kids too, like, fuck, I wish I knew. I wish I knew. And so I am very delighted by the idea of stepping out and telling my story. I don't want to be famous. I worked with Paul Simon in 1987. I've been around famous people for a long fucking time. I know the price you pay. It's not that, you know, shit's not pretty. Yes, there are plenty, plenty, plenty of perks. And the only reason I've chosen to step in the spotlight again and to take the microphone and get on a stage is because I know that I can be in service of others because that's what God put me here for. But I'm not excited about being famous. I love, you know, Sonia Chan, God rest her soul, I talk about her in my memoir. She said to me in 1987,

she was Paul Simon's personal assistant. She said, Soph, cherish your anonymity. I was 22 at the time. I don't really know what the fuck that means then. Boy, do I know now. And that was before social media, before everybody had a video recorder and a camera in their phones in their hands.

But again, I will gladly abdicate my anonymity if I can help other people. It feels like a good place for us to come full circle as well. So sitting here in this container of a good life project. Yes, in this wonderful room. Thank you. Thank you. If I offer up in this container of a good life project. Yes. In this wonderful room. Thank you. Thank you. If I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? Oh, to be with my kids and to be surrounded by my friends and to be eating delicious food, and to be healthy. That's wealth to me. That's the only wealth that matters to me.

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