Good Life Project - You Are Not Broken, You’re Human | Jennifer Pastiloff

Episode Date: July 4, 2019

Jennifer Pastiloff (https://www.jenniferpastiloff.com/) is the author of On Being Human: A Memoir of Waking Up, Living Real, And Listening Hard (https://amzn.to/2LA2aWu). She travels the world, leading On Being Human workshops that integrate movement, writing, sharing aloud and belonging to create a space where shame, hiding and isolation exit and grace, beauty and revelation, along with a whole lot of laughing and dancing enter. Jen is also the founder of the online magazine The Manifest-Station. All of this is informed by her own personal journey, one that had her believing she was a bad person from the time she was a child, and living with depression and anxiety while slowly losing her hearing. She kept all of this secret until a moment of awakening that set her on a profoundly different, more open, accepting and joyful path and led her to eventually step into her role as a writer, teacher and leader.Have you discovered your Sparketype yet? Take the Sparketype Assessment™ now. IT’S FREE (https://www.goodlifeproject.com/sparketypes/) and takes about 7-minutes to complete. At a minimum, it’ll open your eyes in a big way. It also just might change your life.If you enjoyed the show, please share it with a friend. Thank you to our super cool brand partners. If you like the show, please support them - they help make the podcast possible. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

My guest today, Jennifer Pasteloff, pretty much spent the better part of her adult life believing she was a bad person because of a single sentence that came out of her mouth when she was eight years old and what unfolded shortly after that. She navigated the next chunk of years moving in and out of deep depression, anxiety, trying to control what happened in her life through her eating. And at the same time, without letting anyone know, was slowly losing her hearing and interacting with the world in a very different way. That led her eventually to a series of moments that she describes as a rope being dropped into a well that allowed her to climb back up and try to be human, to reclaim her own humanity, to redefine her life and to explore

what it means to be human and to be alive. As she was doing that, she began to write about what she was experiencing in a very real and vulnerable way and share it publicly and realize that other people felt the same way. And that built a substantial, she would not love the word following, but a lot of people resonated profoundly with what she was writing and sharing the journey she was on. She began teaching, she began working with people on leading retreats called On Being Human. And that has led to a new memoir called On Being Human as well, which is beautifully written that details a lot of this journey. In today's conversation, we drop into some of the big moments of awakening, the points of departure

and inquiry along the way, and how she is still very much in this adventure of trying to figure out what it means to be human and share it with others and help others along the way. So excited to share this conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist,

whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman.

I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight Risk. So it's so good to be sitting here with you today. This is the, we are recording this right after your, I guess kind of launch party, launch event in New York City.

Yeah, New York book launch. Which it sounds like it was just incredible. It was. And I'm on antidepressants and I don't cry as easily. And last night I was getting all choked up. So I was like, oh my God, are my meds not working? But I'm really emotional.

It was so beautiful. It was packed. There was like 200 people to my estimate and i got them all to stand up and sing don't stop believing because i have this philosophy of dorking it out and there were people there from my whole life from nyu professors and it was it was like i said when i walked in if my 21 19-year-old self would have never believed that. Or if I had believed it, I would have thought, oh, that'll be when I'm like 25 or 28. You know, and it's just, I love it.

It was really magic. Yeah. I mean, it's amazing to come back. And we're going to take a big step back in time also because you have spent a chunk of time in New York and in the Northeast before this. But it must have been incredible to sort of see people from all different sort of parts of your life who play different roles in who you are in that one space together, sort of like around the same idea. I was really nervous. Weirdly nervous. It was, I was really nervous. Yeah. Weirdly nervous. It was really weird and I went to dinner

with my friend after who is an actor, his name is Holton McCallany and he's on a show called Mindhunter on Netflix and he's known me

for 20, God, over 20 years and he's never seen me though in that way and there were some people there who knew me from my waitressing years or my years when I was in the throes of depression. And so you know how a lot of times and have it all come together was surreal.

Surreal. And yeah, all the different people from childhood, from NYU, random people that follow me, super fans. You know what I mean? It was really something to behold. Yeah. How weird is it for you to say, quote, super fans. You know what I mean? It was really something to behold. Yeah. How weird is it for you to say, quote, super fans? Yeah. And listeners, I put air quotes up there.

Right. Because that was the only thing where you put quotes up there. So I'm curious. Well, because I would know. That's so obnoxious. My super fan. It's like saying followers. It just makes me like gag a little.

It's like, I'm not Moses, you know. It is weird because it's never about, it's not like they're my fans because of what I'm wearing or anything superficial. It's really like something I'm saying or something I've tapped inside of them. So it always feels actually really organic. But yeah, it's always weird to have someone see you. And it's also amazing. And feel like they know you.

Yeah. And that's also tricky because at the end of the day, you know, they don't, they know part of me, the part that I've specifically chosen to share. And also I'm, I'm just a person just like anyone, you know, everyone poops. It's like, so I don't ever want to be on any kind of, I was going to say platitude, that's weird, pedestal. But yeah, it's weird. It's always weird. It's kind of interesting that the word platitude popped into your mind also because that's, it's almost the opposite of what you become known for. Yeah. You know, it's sort of like, because what you tend to see sort of in the social conversation these days is a whole lot of that, a whole lot of platitude, a whole lot of sort of sugarcoating and one-liners and feel-good stuff.

Whereas it does feel like you have, the people who show up for you are because you're doing the exact opposite. You're sort of saying, I'm not ahead of you. I'm not above you. I'm beside you. And we're all human. Can we just share in this experience together? Yeah. And it's messed up a lot of times.

Exactly. What's really funny is on Friday, I did this interview on TV in Portland. And on the TV, when they described me, they called me yoga guru. And then at Powell's, they introduced me as that. And I was speechless. I was like, please, don't ever call me a guru. And what's funny is in my book, Renee Denfeld blurbed it and she called me the anti-guru. But yeah, it's just sharing the journey of being human.

You know, I talk about the inner asshole. And it's like it never goes away for me. It just gets quiet. And some days it's louder. Maybe one day it's not there, but then the next day it's back again. And I talk about that, how I can be successful right now. And even in the middle of a book launch and still feel depressed or, you know, and I think people appreciate that. Yeah, I think you're right. So as we sit here, this is, you know, you've recently launched this beautiful new book. Let's take a step back in time because I want to fill in some gaps about, you know, how you got here. You spent your very early years out in Southern California. bridge and then um my father died and my mom moved us to california to start over so it started east

coast and then we moved back again right um and i know it's funny because i've heard you describe yourself when you were a lot younger um two different words a connector um and also a wary word yeah talk to me more about this that's exactly still me i have not changed okay because that was one of my other questions like is, is that still you sitting here today? Yes, I swear I am. It's amazing that I'm not a movie producer because I am, you know, I meet someone and I'm, oh, you got to know them. And I always put people together. And I, it's just this like thing I have.

I love connecting people. And I also stay connected with people really well. So many of my friends I've had for 35 years. And the worry wart thing, it drives me bananas. And that's my inner asshole. So I try not to listen to it too much, but I still worry a lot. And I don't know if it's from the trauma from when my dad died suddenly when I was eight. And then I have that constant worry that something bad is going to happen. Probably, you know, so like when my sister, when the phone rings, when my sister and my mom call, I immediately get that feeling in my stomach. And it's just like this physiological programming and I have to really work toward just breathe.

Yeah. Do you recall feeling that way at all before your dad passed? I can't remember. Yeah. It's so young, right? Because you were eight, right? Yeah. But I will say I was very serious as a child and I was treated like an adult, which is tricky and complicated. And so I think I probably did. And then it was just exacerbated by my dad's death. But I was, you know, I like never, you see photographs of me when I was a kid, I was never smiling, I was very serious,

which it cracks me up now when people call me a happiness coach or whatever. It's just like the irony is so great. It's like if you only knew. I mean, there's no sentence I've heard more in my life than you should smile more. You're too serious. You look so sad. Even from the earliest years. Earliest. Yeah. Yep. So when your dad passed at eight, I know you also, part of your last conversation with him,

it sounds like was also some of the things that potentially seeded a lot of, a lot of struggles that came after. Yeah. So my dad and I were really, really, really close. I don't, I don't have the adequate words to describe how close and he smoked four packs of cigarettes a day, which is insane. Cools, which are menthol. And this is going to be hard to believe for listeners, but back in the day, you could send your eight-year-old across the street to go get me a pack of cigarettes, hard pack, cools, and a pound of American cheese, thinly sliced. And I said, you promised you were going to stop smoking.

And he said, stop being bad. You're making me not feel good. And I said, you always break your promises. I said you promised you're going to stop smoking and he said stop being bad you're making me not feel good and I said you always break your promises I hate you that's the last thing I ever said to him so I had this core belief that I was a bad person and I you know talk about in the book and in my life a lot your mantra your your mind tattoo that you walk around with. And that was mine, just tattooed in my mind, my heart, my psyche. I knew it. I was a bad person to the core. And in France last week, I messed up when I was speaking.

Instead of mantra, I said monstra. And I thought like, oh my God, I just struck gold. Because your Monstra is the one that your inner asshole brings you. So my Monstra was, I'm a bad person. And I really do think it came from that. I was eight, right? So it felt like, in my mind, I killed him, and it was my fault. Did you, when you were young, did you share what was going on in your head with anybody?

No. Nope. So it just sort of keeps growing and building inside. Exactly. All I did was lock it in. I clenched my jaw. I'm literally missing teeth. I have all these issues. It's a major problem. But no, I did not. And my mom took me to therapy. I refused to talk. I said, I did not. And my mom took me to therapy. I refused to talk. I said, I'm fine.

I'm fine. I was so angry. Even as you said it right there, you said it through clenched teeth. Yeah. It's just like, I'm fine. I don't care. Leave me alone. And my mom was 34 years old, did the best she could.

Do I wish she would have? No, you're not. And yes, but that's not what happened. So, and it was really right after that then that, you know, like you the timeline is, you said right after daddy died, like a month later, we went on vacation. We absolutely did not. But, you know, time didn't exist for me then. So it was like after the unveiling, it was nine months later. But I think it was maybe nine months or a year later we moved. In my mind, it was like the next day. Right.

Yeah. Everything that's compressed. Yeah. My mom, she was, we're going to start over. Let's do it. Picked us up. Moved us to Santa Monica, California, which ironically is where I live now. So what's that?

I mean, you've just been through this absolutely devastating experience. Your family basically picks up and moves cross country and drops into a whole new place where you've got to essentially start over. What was that next year or so like for you? Magic. Yeah. Yes. I, in fact, my friend I'm staying with around the corner, that's my friend from when I was 10 then. Yeah. I started over. I, you know, and I talk about in the book this unknowing, this pretending that, you know, this, I don't feel anything. So I just put that behind me. My dad died. Okay.

And I made all these friends. I started acting in plays. When I was in the seventh grade, I was on Punky Brewster, which I just read as getting a reboot. It was the best. So you can imagine. Then right when I finished seventh grade and my mother said, we are moving back to New Jersey, I literally wanted to kill myself. And that's not an exaggeration. I felt so betrayed because that was so wonderful for me. And I was far away from death and dying in New Jersey and memories. And then I was back in Jersey, Cherry Hill. Yeah.

I mean, it's interesting because not only do you sort of psychologically and emotionally compartmentalize this thing, but geographically too. Right. And it's like simply stepping back into the setting. I have the chills when you say that. It's absolutely true. Yeah. It's like the setting just triggers. I've seen this happen with me.

I've seen this happen with so many people. Something happens that's deeply emotional that stays with you. And you can kind of move away from it and rebuild. But even if you don't go back to that place, if there's something that is similar enough to the setting where it all unfolded, that you just, it hits you in a certain way, it's almost like you're right back there.

Oh my God, or a smell, right? Yeah. If I smell it, my dad wore a polo, Ralph Lauren cologne. But yeah, to me, my ghosts were in Southern New Jersey and Philadelphia and it was really hard to go back there. I was so depressed. And eighth grade, if you can remember that, if you haven't talked it out, right? Because everyone already has their friends. To me, middle school is like a level of hell. I went in eighth grade. I had no friends.

They had all made their friends in the seventh grade the year before. And it was tough that first year. Yeah. What was it that made your mom want to go back? I talk about it in the book, and I was so angry at her, even until recently, really. That's not the right word. Because she says it's complicated, which I now understand life is. But looking back,

at the time, I thought it was for a man. She fell in love with her high school boyfriend again and we moved back and so I judged her moving back for a man and you know she I think it was a myriad of things and she missed I don't know she wanted her roots back and but she was in love and I don't know, now, now I understand, now I really, I really don't judge that decision anymore. And also I'm grateful for exactly everything that happened. I wasn't then, but I look back now and it's, you know, all roads have led me here. So I guess right around then also, cause you step back there, like you said, you are depressed. But when you say I was depressed, it wasn't like your average. It's like probably a lot of, you know, sort of like typical middle schoolers would be like, oh, I'm so depressed.

I'm dark, I'm gloomy. And we all go through things. This was different. Yeah. And also looking back, I was depressed from, I can remember kindergarten, crying, I never wanted to go I can remember kindergarten, crying. I never wanted to go to school, feeling sad all the time. I can't remember not feeling sad.

I wish I'd gone antidepressants way earlier than I did. depression I already had was then amplified by not only like the grief that I had never dealt with but then moving back and I felt so alone but I started to find my way by the time I went into high school and but yeah um I just had never dealt with the grief and all the things I felt. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like also sort of like going back and forth between the two places. There's when you step back in, like back to New Jersey, there's a certain amount of isolation that goes around with it. Did your mom, I know sort of like earlier, you weren't sharing what was going on inside of you.

Were you still keeping it all to yourself at that point? Yeah. Yes. I mean, now I'm a master communicator, you know, it's what I do for a living. But I mean, it's still hard with my family though. I think it for so many of us, right? Right. Because there are patterns that are just there for so long. Which goes back to what you were talking about with the people in the audience last night.

There's those patterns and agreements we have with people. And so it's like, it's very hard to break. No, I was not talking about anything. And, you know, eventually, as I got a little bit older, it manifested into anorexia and whatnot. I found a way not to necessarily express myself, but to deal with things I was feeling and be able to control it or so I thought. Yeah. So that was like the one place where you could say like,

and I guess that's sort of one of the underlying drivers for eating disorders across so many people is a sense of lack of control in so many other parts of life. And you're like, there's this one thing. There's one place. Yeah. And I used to think if I, I couldn't deal with life unless I was empty.

And it made me feel like strong. And what it did is it made me feel nothing. I just was numb. And I was truly killing myself. I didn't get my period for four years. Yeah. And all the while, again, this is something you're not sharing. Well, yeah.

I mean, it's funny. I've always been very self-aware, right? So if I went to a therapist, I'd be able to say like like diagnose myself or whatever it was but that just because you can say what it is doesn't mean shit sometimes but what are you going to do about it so i knew i had a problem in no way shape or form did i want to let go of that problem though so i wasn't no i wasn't in therapy. My mom begged me, people, my friends, you know, and I, I didn't care. And I also, I never, you know, my dad died at 38 and it wasn't a conscious thing, but I just thought life ended then. I never could visualize a future for myself.

So it's almost like, why bother taking care of myself or planning beyond that? Because that's... Exactly. You know, like life is short. It breaks my heart to think about that now. Yeah. At the same time, in the background of all of this, you're starting to experience problems with hearing. When does that all start? So, you know, again, I talk about this in the book, but I had this habit when I was coloring or writing or drawing when I was very young, seven, six, it was before my dad died, where I would make this droning sound, this awful noise, and people made fun of me.

Why do you do that? Stop doing that, Jennifer. And I got embarrassed and I did. I stopped. It wasn't until maybe 10 years ago when I went to the audiologist, it dawned on me, oh, I've always had tinnitus. And it made me cry. I've always had tinnitus. So when I was young, the reason I was doing that, I was mimicking the sound in my head, but I've just got used to it. I thought everyone heard this. I've never heard silence. The hearing loss has gotten progressively worse as I've gotten older, by far in the last 20 years,

in the last five. I can't hear anymore without my hearing aids. When I was young, it wasn't that bad. Looking back, it was always there because all I was ever told was, you need to pay attention. Pay attention. You're a space cadet. No, I just can't. I just had hearing loss. Chronic ear infections. I don't remember ever not having an ear infection or being on antibiotics. But it's progressively gotten worse.

And I was in a lot of denial about it. I was ashamed. I felt broken and embarrassed and scared. That if I admitted it, I was ashamed. I felt broken and embarrassed and scared that if I admitted it, it was true. So I ignored it. My friends had an intervention with me in my 20s. Jen, you have to go to the audiologist. You cannot hear. I cried. I cried. Did I go? No. It's maybe been maybe now 10 years that I've had hearing aids. And by the time I was not ashamed anymore or I couldn't afford hearing aids, you know how expensive they are? I did a crowdfunding to get them. Well, the first pair were donated, but yeah, it was always there. It just got worse and worse and worse. Mark Wahlberg You know what the difference between me and you is? You're gonna die Don't shoot him, we need him Y'all need a pilot

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The Apple Watch Series X, available for the first time in glossy jet-black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. In 2010, I actually started getting tinnitus, or tinnitus, depending who you ask. And I had a very different experience. It's not related at all to hearing loss for me. But I literally woke up. Do you still have it?

I do, yeah, to this day. So sitting here, I have that same loud sound in my head. And my experience, you know, going from experiencing silence all the time to never experiencing it again, then hoping for a window of time it would go away and then realizing it never would was devastating, was absolutely devastating to me until I finally just started accepting it and then doing the work to try and accelerate my brain's ability to habituate to it. So now it's always there, but I'm okay with it. And I don't notice it unless I look for it.

Or if I'm, you know, I'm in New York City also, so there's a ton of ambient noise that kind of masked it. But if I go out to the country, you know, and it's really quiet, then it'll present as loud. But my brain doesn't respond to it the the country, you know, and it's really quiet, then it'll present as loud. But my brain doesn't respond to it the same way, you know, but it was this sort of. Isn't that beautiful though? I mean, what a metaphor for life. Yeah, completely.

Right. So this is what happens when you, like, if there's a circumstance that's changeable, do what you can to change it. You know, if it comes to a point where you realize this is what it is, like, how can I get as okay as I can if this is me for life? Everything changes. You know, it's not easy and it takes time. But that was the turning point for me. So it was interesting to hear. Beautiful.

It's really moving and beautiful to hear you say that. Because I feel the same exact way. That's not to say some days I don't have really shitty days where I get so frustrated because the sound in my head is so loud, all I'd want is for it to go away. I mean, it's debilitating. But like I always say, you have two options, keep going or shut down. And those are nuanced options. But I'm going to keep say, you have two options, keep going or shut down. And those are nuanced options, but I'm going to keep going.

It doesn't mean it's not frustrating, right? Yeah, it's a really interesting thing. Yeah, I had a similar early reaction to you also in that I didn't want to tell anybody. Not because of shame, not because of embarrassment, not because of concern, but because to me, as long as it was still in my head and nobody else could hear it, maybe it wasn't real. Maybe it wasn't there forever. But as soon as I started talking about it, that made it real. That's like the way I've lived my whole life. And I'm like, I'm so tired of it now.

Because it's a myth. If I don't talk about my dad dying, it didn't happen. If I don't talk about my pain, it's not there. If I ignore my toothache, it'll go away. Bullshit. I'm missing a tooth in my head. If I ignore my hearing loss, let me tell you, it only got worse. Right? So every single thing, or if I don't say it out loud, it doesn't exist. It's not true. And I feel like that's the work of my life, right? And yours. It's so important to talk about things and share them in whatever way that is or whatever that looks like for you or me. Yeah, no, so agree.

So you get to a point where you eventually end up in NYU. You're there for, I think, three years, right? Studying poetry. Yeah, three years. And I was a scholar, finished junior year, you know, took a air quote semester off. But that wasn't to be sort of like the finishing NYU and going out into the world as a poet slash writer was not the destiny that was awaiting you. No, but you know, can I tell you my fantasy? Yeah.

That I get an honorary degree from NYU. It's the weirdest fantasy, but Neil Diamond got one, okay? Right. Not out of the question right now, right? I mean, I'm saying. It could happen. Or I get really rich, I can move back to New York, and then I go back. Either way.

Both good. What was it about poetry that drew you? Oh, I still love it. I still... Poetry is my religion. That sounds so corny. Like a Lenny Kravitz song or something. But I don't know.

You know, one of my favorite poets in the world is Naomi Shihab Nye, and she's a dear friend of mine. And the way that she looks at the world is like with this childlike wonder. And there's something about poetry that makes me feel that, like I'm rediscovering something or it makes me feel alive in a way that maybe music as well, but there's just something about poetry. It makes my heart beat faster and I absolutely love it. It's my first love. It makes me excited.

I love it. Was poetry something that you sort of escaped into when you were younger? No. I wrote all the time and I always wrote stories and I always thought I wanted to be a short story writer. I went to NYU and there was this professor there named Tim Tomlinson and he was actually at the reading last night. It was really moving. And he introduced me to a poet named Donna Massini. And I wrote my first poem. And I fell in love. And I read some of her stuff and I thought, oh, this is what a poem can be?

I had no idea. It was narrative. It was like prose. Wow, a poem could be anything. And so I just started finding poetry everywhere. in New York. It's so easy. I started finding it in people's faces. I started going to readings and just being inspired and being able to, I mean, of course, every poem was about my father. My book is, it's like my father's never going away. But it was definitely not something I never, until I was 18. And I always thought a poem had a rhyme and, you know, these silly notions. I discovered a whole new

world. So what ends up taking you from that then back out? I stopped writing. I dropped out of school, essentially, even though it was an accident. I thought it was going to be a semester. I started waiting tables, and every once in a while I wrote a poem, but I just, I wasn't doing anything creative. I wasn't making art. I was, I felt like I was dead inside.

And I'd say more, a little more than 10 years ago, I started writing blogs and then essays, personal essays. And I started to find my old poems and find and kind of put them in. And I realized that I could create a hybrid of the two. So, I mean, even as I think of my book, I don't dare say I'm a poet. I don't really write poetry anymore. But I feel like my book is poetic in a way. You write musically. You write lyrically. Thank you. It's like the biggest compliment. So I decided, hey, I could do whatever I want. And Lydia Joknovich really, really taught me that. You could do whatever you want. And so I just kind of started mixing poetry with prose and

I'm sticking to it. But meanwhile, you're doing this now. So you end up back out in California at a restaurant, which is supposed to be a short-term gig. Oh, yeah. And I worked there almost 14 years, the same place, the Newsroom Cafe, which was the end-all, be-all at the time in Hollywood, West Hollywood. So you're kind of, whatever writing you're doing, you're kind of doing on the side. And barely. Yeah. One poem a year, maybe.

Just, you know, I'd stay up all night on my pink iMac. So as you're at the restaurant for the better part of 14 years, exploring acting, that whole industry, which is interesting. Well, can you clarify? Exploring acting, what I mean by that is I waited for someone to discover me. Spoiler alert, it did not happen. I mean, you know, I took some acting classes, but I wasn't, by no means was I like hitting the pavement, you know, pursuing a career. I really, I waited around. Just someone come find me, come save me.

Never happened. Mm-hmm. I mean, it's so interesting also because, so you chose a job, which is very social, very forward-facing in a loud environment. Meanwhile, you're hearing, you're struggling with your hearing more and more every year. And it seems like also really succeeding in that particular career. How did you flourish in that environment? Great question. Well, that's where I learned how to read lips so well. And also, so I have a certain personality that my friend joked last night. She said she met me and two days later I invited her to my wedding. And she said, well, that's Jim Pasolo. But I have this, you know, very, I don't know.

I don't know how to describe it, but just like, so I'd squat down just, and I realize now it was so I could read your lips when you were a customer. But I was friendly with everyone and intimate. And because of the acoustics and it was so bad, I always attributed it to, oh, it's just really loud in here. But I got so good at reading lips. So good. And I had to get in close. And it was one of the places I really learned how to begin to listen. Because I had to work so hard.

And my hearing loss was nowhere near as bad as it is now. Nowhere near as bad. Yeah. I wonder if it also, I mean, was that, cause I know you sort of described whole body listening, right? When you're, especially when your job depends upon, you know, like understanding and hearing in a, in a, in a fast paced, noisy, kinetic setting, developing the skill of both reading lips, but also really just understanding

what's happening with somebody's body. What are they expressing? What are their true needs? Do you feel like the restaurant was a really powerful laboratory for that whole suite of things? Yes. And I just got the chills again.

Yes. And in fact, I feel like I'm having all these epiphanies sitting here in your beautiful apartment because I've never quite realized that before. But yes. And also, I could never do it again now. Not because of ego or anything, but because of my hearing. It's just way too bad now. the reason my workshops work so well is because I'm in control. It's my room. So I walk over and I sit down in your yoga mat practically on your lap and I could get in your face. And so when I'm not, when it's not my room or whatever it may be,

I don't, I usually just suffer in silence because I can't hear. And with the waiting tables, it just, I wouldn't be able to, my hearing's just too bad now. I would not be able to, I'd get every order wrong and I'd get upset and frustrated and customers would. But yeah, that place, looking back now, it was a gift and it taught me almost everything I know. Yeah. I mean, in addition to that, it's almost like being in the restaurant world and it teaches you so much about human interaction, social dynamics. What do you think don't be an asshole comes from? Every person who has ever waited tables or bust in the history of restaurants, right?

So what happens that moves you out of this state and also i guess um are you because you're still at that point you're still living and struggling with i don't know if the word is struggling with but you're living with a certain amount of persistent depression and anxiety layered on top of everything else that's going on it sounds like still uh anorexia at that point well it's yes but I wasn't as skinny. So I gained a bunch of weight and I never looked like I did before again, but I was still abusing myself. And so I would starve myself all day and then eat in the middle of the night and disordered. But it just changed the way it looked.

And I know you were exercising like an insane amount of time. Four hours a day. It was just, it was ridiculous. But when you said the thing about, it really moved me about your tinnitus and kind of like, if I didn't say it out loud, it didn't exist. With my depression and anxiety, I just,

first of all, I thought that how I feel, this is what I deserve. Because I'm a bad person. Going all the way back to eight years old. Oh, yeah. I still struggle with that. It's my inner asshole. Most days I don't listen.

Shh. No. Nope. You're not going to be the boss of me today. But I thought it was all I deserved. Also, I thought if I ignore it, it'll go away. All these myths. And it wasn't until I finally, I went on antidepressants.

I can't remember, maybe I was 34. And one great wish on my life was I had done it sooner. It wasn't like a magic pill that made me feel happy, but all of a sudden, the only way I've been able to describe it that feels astute is I was in a well or a pit and someone threw down a rope and I started to climb out and I saw a tiny bit of light. And then I just kept going toward it. It was hope, I guess, but I didn't, it was the first time I thought I could possibly get out of the restaurant. I never, I thought I would die there. I really just was, I was like, well, this is it for me.

What changed in you that made you say yes to trying that? Because I'm guessing that had been presented to you along the way earlier. It had, but I went to a therapist who was not very good at all. And I went in the very first session. He goes, you're depressed. I was like, no shit, right? And he said, you need antidepressants. And I was offended. I thought, everyone just wants to medicate everyone. And I left and I called a bunch of my friends

and I barely got the words out of my mouth. And they were like, well, of course you do. We've always thought that. And- Were you surprised when they said that? No. And some of the reasons I had for not going on medication were, are you ready? I was afraid I'd gain weight. It was so, so silly. And so I thought, all right, well, I took a poll with my friends and everyone across the board. They were begging me, please listen to this man, please. So I thought, okay, I'll try it for like a week or two. And about two weeks in, I felt different.

And I thought, oh my God, maybe I will do a yoga teacher training. It wasn't because I wanted to be a yoga teacher. I just wanted a way out of the restaurant. Until that happened, from the time you were eight until then, did you have a sense that it was possible to feel different? No. No. I did not think it was possible. I did not think I deserved it. I thought, this is the way I will always be. This is my baseline. Mm-mm. One of my favorite quotes, I've heard Wayne Dyer, who I love,

say was, I believe it's Mark Twain, it's not what you don't know that gets you in trouble. It's what you think you know for sure that just ain't so. I knew for sure. Hmm. So once you start to climb out, once the rope is dropped, Game over. you start to realize. Right, because it seems like so many shifts start to happen so quickly

from that moment forward. And they did. And that's why I forever am so grateful for the antidepressants. I do not think they saved my life. I saved my life, but they allowed me to take that first step, you know what I mean? To kind of get out of bed, metaphorically and literally. But yes, one thing led to the other. Yoga was a way in. My husband, who I had actually met 10 years prior, my mom had tried to fix us up, and I was not interested. And 10 years later, he came in the restaurant and I recognized him. I thought, oh, Robert, I know you. And we went out and it was just timing.

And I knew that night I would marry him, which sounds like the corniest thing in the world. And it's the truest thing in the world. And my husband actually, it was, it was all these things came into place at once. So he wasn't my husband yet, but he just gave me this freedom and this safety in the world that I was able to like fly. And I never had that before. I never felt safe before. And for me, that's the biggest thing. That feeling of like, it's going to be okay. Or feeling safe.

You give that to me, I am yours for life. It's so interesting, right? Because that same experience of safety, it seems like that has become a central part of what you have then committed yourself to cultivating for others now. I mean, are you sure you weren't in the audience last night? Because somebody asked me, actually laura donnelly who was i was in conversation with she asked me what what did you want i forget how she worded it but maybe it was what did you want someone to feel or after i read your book and i said that i i wanted them to have a feeling like it's going to be okay and that's who i want to be in the world. That I got you. A feeling of safety. It's exactly why you pick up on that. It's because there's nothing more important to me.

And so therefore I attempt to be that. May I have the courage to be who I say I am. Which is that safe landing place. Or a safe place. Safe person. Yeah. Mayday. Mayday Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinn The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

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Charge time and actual results will vary. I mean, what's interesting to me also is that your journey from discovering through a blend of medication, yoga practice, a person who helped create this sense for you, to stepping back into your own light, to finding your own path, to then being able to turn around and create that for other people. It's really hard to create that for other people, I found, until you really fully feel it yourself. A lot of times it takes a year to fully feel it yourself. But tell me, from the outside looking in, it seems like you actually kind of shortcutted that because you stepped into the role of wanting to create that for other people while you were experimenting with trying to feel like you weren't there yet, but you were something you still said,

no, I still want to actually see if I can make this happen. And that's why my book's called On Being Human. Yeah. Absolutely. That's why I'm like clear, don't call me a guru. Hey, I'm just figuring it out too. Let's talk about it. It's really the truth telling.

But absolutely. And it was another question that she asked last night about when I really started to wake up. That's part of the subtitle of my book. And a lot of it was when I started, you know, getting deep into these workshops because I realized I want to walk the talk. I want to be a congruent person. You know, these people are coming to me struggling with hating themselves or starving themselves or whatever it is. I can't be pulling that shit. It doesn't mean that I'm perfect and I don't have bad days sometimes, but I really want to be who I say I am. I am figuring it out as I go along and I'm really open about that.

And I think we all are. You know, I mean, do you have it figured out? I have not met the person yet who says they do, who I trust. Exactly. Exactly. But I mean, so to fill in a little bit of the gap here, you start to practice yoga. You eventually, that becomes a big part of your life. You become certified and trained and start. It seems like kind of unwittingly actually teaching. Oh, I didn't want to be a yoga teacher. I mean, I was doing yoga all the time, all the time, all the time, all the time.

And my friends all said, you should become a yoga teacher. Why don't you do that instead of waiting tables? And I was like, I'd rather you poke me in the eyes. No. But then I took the mats and all of a sudden a light bulb went off. Maybe I will do a training. You never know. And I did it. And I still didn't want to be a yoga teacher, but my beloved, savvy Jewish mother figured out how to make a website, built me a website. And somehow people started finding me on it. And I taught one class and then I taught another and I discovered I'm really good

at this. And lo and behold, it was a way out of the restaurant. And pretty soon after that, I guess you found yourself in a retreat setting. Yeah. And then I started leading retreats and workshops and it didn't start as what it is now. It started as, you know, yoga. And then I started getting more confident because I never wanted to be a yoga teacher. That wasn't, it was an accident. And I started to just combine all the things, the writing and then the people skills I had in the restaurant and the way I'd learned to listen and putting it all together and making up this weird, wacky workshop thing that I was doing. And it started working. Working how? Like, what does that look like? Like I'd say somehow I came to Philly, I was visiting home and I said, I wanted,

I went to take a yoga class there. And I said, I'd like to come and teach a workshop here. And they said, okay. And it meant people were showing up and then word of mouth started spreading. And then I started writing more personal essays. And at the bottom, I'd have like a little tagline like, see you next week in New York. I had arranged for a workshop in New York and they started coming for my writing. And then more people started coming and I started getting more bold with what I was doing, which meant less yoga. Because I didn't know how to get people in the room, especially in a yoga studio, and then tricked you. So there's a little.

But nowadays, when you come to my workshop, I say, how many of you have never done yoga? Most of the people raise their hand. It's not yoga people anymore. But yeah, it started to work. And I started to see people opening up, people who'd never shared their stories, people who kept coming back, telling their friends, following me around the world. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting too. So we have some kind of weird overlaps.

I actually owned a yoga studio and taught yoga in the city for seven years. Really? And when I left, the yoga studio is still there. We sold the studio more than a decade ago now. A lot of people were really surprised. And to this day, occasionally people ask, like, do you miss teaching yoga? And in a weird way, my answer is, I don't feel like I ever stopped. I don't teach asana anymore.

You keep saying things that make my arm hurt. But it seems like the same thing for you. It's like, sure, like maybe it's not as much of the math stuff, but fundamentally, the richer part of the tradition has always been, you know, if you look at the eight-limb path, you know, like asana is one out of eight. You know, and the physical practices were always ready. They were to prepare you for the deeper personal inquiry. But it's all part of the same thing. Absolutely. I mean, sitting here now, being deeply connected to you, that's yoga to me. One of my best friends is in a band called Snow Patrol, and watching them on stage, oh, that's yoga. When you're watching someone who's so connected to what they're doing, who's doing what they were born to do. So I absolutely think you're right. I think that's such a brilliant answer. Yeah. I mean, I remember seeing Bruce Springsteen in concert in late 60s.

He played four hours and the whole time I'm like, he's doing yoga. I'm like, literally, he was, there was no separation between him, the band, the music, the crowd. It was just hyper presence and expression like in real time. And I was like, boom, that's it. I love that you say that. And I've also, I've just gotten more confident in being with that.

So I don't call my retreats yoga retreats. Some people do. I'm going on a yoga retreat to Italy with Jen Paszloff, but I never say that. I have a knowing it is, but I've gotten just more confident in being like, this is the yoga. This bearing witness, just not looking away, this paying attention, this getting quiet. This is the yoga. And whether we do some down dogs or not. You mentioned also that part of the way that people were finding you was

through your writing. So at some point you step back into more publicly saying, okay, so this is a part of me too. Yes. So when I started teaching yoga, I became a hustler. I never did this with acting or anything, but all of a sudden, I said to myself, this is it. Sink or swim, baby. So I made these little business cards. I started dropping them off with checks at the table. I mean, I don't know how I didn't get fired. Got a lot of clients that way, though.

And I started teaching publicly. And I realized I could use Facebook as a tool. This was, you know, back when Facebook was, like, so popular. And I started posting on Facebook. And I thought, when I first started blogging, it wasn't even, it was really, I thought, as a way to get people to come to my classes. And then people started liking my blogs and I thought, I didn't particularly enjoy writing in this, oh, I don't know. I was writing in a way that I thought people would like or share. And then I thought, what if I just tell the truth? What if I just write how I want to write?

Like I did when I wrote poetry, rather than 10 ways to be happy, right? And I did. And I just started to put myself out there a little, and then a little more, and then a little more. Yeah. What did it feel like when, do you recall the first time that you sort of said, okay, I'm going to drop the listicle, what I think is going to be popular approach and just share what's genuinely in me, in my words, not just your experience, not just your thoughts, but your voice, like your distinct writing voice. Like when you put that out there and you hit publish on it, that very first time. I wanted to throw up in my mouth. Right. Like no more hiding.

Well, Brene Brown calls it a vulnerability hangover. Now, back then, I hadn't heard her say that yet. So when I heard Brene say that, oh, I mean, there's no more apt description to what I felt back then. Oh, I felt so exposed. And back then, let's call it 10 years ago, you know, when I was teaching yoga and talking about depression, now it's different. Nobody was doing that. And I was like, and I curse and I drink, you know, and I struggle with this. and people were like, who are you? Just a human. But it was exciting and terrifying. And I thought, oh, I could possibly jeopardize my job because I'm a yoga person, you know. But I didn't.

Quite the opposite. But it was terrifying. and exciting what was it like when you realize people loved that and wanted more it's a good question i think what was it like it's sometimes it's dangerous because it's easy to get addicted to that feeling, you know, and I have to be careful with that. So in the beginning, you know, that served something. It kept me going, but now I try not to like what they're responding to, what they're not, doesn't matter. You know, it was really exciting because I thought, and again, I say this in the book, but I thought, oh, wow, I just have to be myself? This is amazing.

Last night in the cab after, my friend turned to me, and again, he's known me since I was 20, 21. He said, it's so amazing, Jen. You've made this career just out of, and I knew what he was going to say. He goes, just out of being yourself. And we all can do that. No, I'm not saying everyone's going to go out and do what I'm doing or do what you're doing. But, like, there's no other Jonathan. There's no other Jennifer. And I just started sharing whole life hiding, I stopped hiding. And it changed everything. Everything.

And now that's what you want to create for others. Yes. Yeah. There's a phrase that you use. It actually is in the early part of your book, Beauty Hunting. Tell me more about this. I mean, I just had it just now. I was telling you when I was downstairs getting water at the deli, you use. It actually is in the early part of your book, Beauty Hunting. Tell me more about this.

I mean, I just had it just now. I was telling you when I was downstairs getting water at the deli, the man that was ringing me up, there was two men. I think one maybe was the father. And he looked at me and he goes, you're doing all the right things or all the good things, he said. I said, I'm doing some of them. But like, it's seeking out, open your eyes and seeking out the beauty right now, not in your whole life, not like, oh, you know, it was when my son was, no, right now, the five most beautiful things on the way on the walk over here. And there were hundreds more, but it was a tool I found to cause me to pay attention, to get out of my own head, to look for beauty instead of things to be offended by or stressed out by or pissed off about. And sometimes it's hard when you're in pain or grief or the political environment right now. But it's always there.

You know, like opening our eyes, finding. And to me, it's poetry. Pay attention. Find the beauty. And, you know, some days it's easier. Some days you got to dig for it. But I can, you know, I've really trained myself to just find it all the time. I get so tickled by things and people.

That's one of the reasons I love Elizabeth Gilbert so much. I look at her and that's how I feel she lives her life. She's a beauty hunter. Yeah, I have to, whatever it is. A beautiful glass of Pinot Noir, you know. A little cheese in France or Italy. Seriously. It's just like, oh, wow, look at this. And so in every workshop at the retreat, you know, in France, there were two a day. Right before we walk out of the room, I give them a sticky note. I write down the five most beautiful things from this morning until now.

And then I put them all over the wall. So by the time we leave the retreat, the walls are covered with beautiful things. It really makes you pay attention. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because it's sort of like a play on the classic gratitude journal. You know, like where people are told at the end of the day, write down the three things you're grateful for. It was born of something. Yeah was um victor frankel i think actually it was wayne dyer again but saying how victor frankel when he was in a concentration camp they would

give them these like disgusting dirty bowls of water with a dead fish head in it. And Viktor Frankl said, and this could be myth, but it changed my life. He said, I found the beauty in the dead fish head. That was the only way I survived. And I sobbed and I sobbed. And I thought, well, I'm an asshole. I mean, wow, I got to start looking for my fish head like all the time, every day, every second of every day.

And so that's really where it came from. I certainly did not invent looking for beauty, but I did buy the URL. Along with a couple of others over there. It's when I zoom the lens out and I sort of look at the body of work that you've built over the last decade or so and the impact that you're having on people's lives by essentially showing up and being you and inviting other people to show up and be them. On the one hand, it's revolutionary. On the other hand, it's completely not at all. Isn't it amazing? You know, it's almost like, and I don't, I would imagine that you're not in love with somebody saying where you're giving people permission to do this because it's not your role. No. You know, but it's creating just the opportunity and the invitation to a certain extent.

And then some process along the way. I understand what they mean when they say that. But yeah, that's, again, that's the guru thing. Yeah. But people do, you know, where there's so much shame in the world and so when when someone talks openly about hey you know what i struggle with depression and i still do or mental illness or talking about my invisible disability you know and they go oh maybe i can talk about that without shame i love that so however they want to phrase it like well you're giving me permission or i just love the fact that there's a dialogue being created

and that we're not holding so much in. Yeah. I know you work so deeply with so many people right now. I'm curious, and the word shame keeps coming up in the conversation. The word what? Shame. Shame. Is that something?

I would imagine you see a lot of patterns that become common sources of profound pain as you work with so many people. Is shame one of the big ones that you see? Probably the biggest. And the biggest thing I see across the board all ages is the core belief of I am not enough. So many of us are so concerned with what will they think, right? I think so much of the shame comes from that. And so, you know, especially with the way I share things,

and by all means, there's much I did not share, although one might not believe that, but I decided to let go of it, of the shame surrounding what will they think, you know? Also, I won't go seeking out bad reviews or, you know, people that are going to, because there's always going to be someone to say something. I think, again, Brene Brown, and again, I could be like completely misquoting her, but the idea is she says, you know, what,

what does she say? Shame is guilt is I did something bad and shame is I am bad. Something like that. Sorry, Brene, if I got it wrong, but, um, my whole life I thought I'm a bad person. Right. And so dismantling shame for me is, is at the top of the list for everything I do. And I recognize it because it's like looking in a mirror. Because I carried that in my body for so long and still battle with it sometimes that I can see it in others. And it just doesn't serve any purpose. In your own life, what happens that sends you back there? What are the triggers?

That's a really good question. When I'm really tired or stressed out, I go to like an old synapse in the brain. So I go to that or I go to I'm fat or, you know, body stuff. And I'm able, I have tools. I'm able to not most days or I call a friend. I really, I've got good people. But this is why to me self-care is so important.

When I feel like I've messed up with my son or done something wrong. When something happens in life, whatever it is, I struggle because of the thing that happened with my father. I feel like it was my fault with thinking everything's my fault. And so that brings on that feeling of shame. I did it again. It's my fault. And so that brings on that feeling of shame. I did it again. It's my fault. I messed up.

You know, all these bullshit stories. And I guess the other side of that is for, and granted it's not universal for everyone, but what are the things that really pull you out of that quickly or as quickly as possible? It sounds like one of them is having really good people. Yeah. You know, so when you're feeling, but also I wonder if a bigger part of the struggle

for so many people is actually the awareness to know that you're either heading into that space or that you're there. Yeah, but again, that's why the other people come in. I say like, you know, find those people that will gently shake your shoulders lovingly and not let you carry your bullshit story anymore. You know, lovingly.

That's the key word. It's not just any schmo on the street, you know, but like lovingly like, hey, that's just not true. Moving my body. I'm the queen of watching Netflix on the elliptical. But really, whether it's walking, it's exercise. Although I abused it, it really helps me with depression and anxiety and feeling rotten about myself. Getting quiet and creating a new mind tattoo or mantra. And so my most common ones are I'm safe, I'm here, I'm in my body, I'm enough. And really working on recognizing like, okay, it's a bullshit story. So I hope that we all find people, whether it's in real life or online, one person, someone who reminds you who you really are.

It's an exercise I do in my workshop called In the Voice of Someone Who Loves You. I have you write a letter in the voice of someone who loves you. And the prompt, you know, this started off with, if you could see what I see, you'd know. So sometimes I'll do that in the morning. I'll write that. You know, so you carry that with you. When you zoom the lens out, you've got this beautiful new book.

You're running retreats and workshops and speaking and facilitating and working with clients around the world, all around this idea of being more human, becoming more human, on being human, right? That's the name of your thing. When you look at this broad body of work, when you look at all of the energy that you're putting into it right now, do you have sort of a greater intention for all of it? Mm-hmm. When I get to the end of my life and I ask one final, what have I done? Let my answer be, I have done love. I don't know what that looks like. So right now it looks like the book. It looks like my website.

It looks like my son sitting here with you sharing. I just want that to keep expanding, whatever that looks like or means. What I would love to do is to keep doing what I'm doing, like the retreats, but on a smaller scale so that I don't have to hustle so much and that's my whole livelihood. I want to do more public speaking. It's reach greater amounts of people, but still be able to do the work I do and do more work for free. So I get paid more, maybe public speak and then be able to give back more to people that can't. But ultimately, I have no idea what it's going to look like. I just know that at the end of every day, I want to say, I've done love. I've done love. So that's why I can't say with my workshops if there's going to be a lot of yoga in this one or what it's going to be like.

All I know is my intention, it's to do love. So that feels like a good place for us to come full circle too. And I wonder if what you just offered is also the answer to the question I always ask everyone at the end, which is if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? That, you know know doing love mary oliver's poem when death comes the last line she says i don't want to end up simply having visited this world and so it's become my life's work to not just be a visitor, to really fully be here. Living a good life is, you know, listening, telling the truth, not looking away, beauty hunting.

All that means is doing love. You know, it's a verb. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so Thank you. what should I do with my life? We have created a really cool online assessment that will help you discover the source code for the work that you're here to do. You can find it at sparkotype.com. That's S-P-A-R-K-E-T-Y-P-E.com. Or just click the link in the show notes.

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