Good Life Project - Yrsa Daley-Ward | Meeting Yourself Where You Are

Episode Date: January 6, 2022

My guest today, Yrsa Daley-Ward, is an author, actor, model, and screenwriter of mixed Jamaican and Nigerian heritage. Growing up in the northwest of England, she found herself quickly exited from her home, being raised by her grandparents at the age of 6, and struggling in many ways to understand what had just happened. Reading and writing became her salvation. A more introverted kid, raised in a strict religious family, in a tradition that no one outside the family shared, being vegetarian, and the only Black person in her school who also happened to stand nearly a foot above her peers by her early teens, she yearned to just fit in. To not stand out. She didn’t want to be different. Yet, something in the order of magic happened when her teacher noticed Yrsa’s gift for language and asked her to begin sharing her poems before the class as spoken words. She came alive. It was like she stepped outside herself and all was as it should be. And that very feeling, though stifled for a time, would come roaring back to life years later when, living in Cape Town, South Africa, she stumbled into a weekly poetry group. Following a weekly prompt, Yrsa wrote a poem entitled Mental Health, then performed it from the stage. The response took her breath away. In that moment, she knew this would be her life. And, it has become just that.Now, three books and many stages in, having cultivated a giant global community, co-written Beyoncé's musical film and visual album, Black Is King, her work has appeared in Vogue, Elle, Harpers Bazaar, and so many other outlets. Her work draws from her own experiences and larger issues affecting our behavior, culture, and life, fusing poetry with theatre, music, and storytelling, while sharing universal, often hard, but honest and real experiences in verse, in a way that draws you in and makes you feel less alone. Yrsa’s newest book ‘The How,’ was written entirely during the pandemic, and we talk about her journey to this moment, explore some of the poems and ideas, and also dive into what it was like to create work that is so close to the bone at a moment like this.You can find Yrsa at: Website | InstagramIf you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Cleo Wade, about crafting language, performing and moving people.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book SparkedMy New Podcast SPARKED.Visit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

You're always going to touch someone by being as honest as you possibly can. Whatever that truth is, whatever that truth is, is valid. And will set somebody free. You know, starting with yourself, it will travel and it will be powerful, I think. My guest today, Yursa Daly-Ward, is an author, actor, model and screenwriter of mixed Jamaican and Nigerian heritage. And growing up in Northwest of England, she found herself quickly exited from her home, being raised by her grandparents at the age of six and struggling in many ways to understand what had just happened.

Reading and writing became a bit of a salvation for her. A more introverted kid raised in a strict religious family then, in a tradition that no one outside the family shared, being vegetarian, the only black person in her school who also happened to stand nearly a foot above her peers by her early teens. She just yearned to fit in, to not stand out. She didn't want to be different. And yet something in the order of magic happened when her teacher noticed Yursa's gift for language and asked her to begin sharing her poems before the class as spoken word. She came alive. It was like she stepped outside herself and all was as it should be. And that very feeling, though stifled for some time, would come roaring back to life years later when living in Cape Town, South Africa, she stumbled into this weekly poetry group. And

following one of the weekly prompts, Yursa wrote a poem entitled Mental Illness, then performed it from the stage, and the response, it just took her breath away. And in that moment, she knew this would be her life, and it has become just that. Now three books and many stages in, having cultivated a giant global community on Instagram, co-written Beyonce's musical film and visual album, Black is King. Her work has appeared in Vogue, Elle, Harp is Bizarre, and so many other outlets. And it draws from her own experiences and larger issues affecting our behavior, culture, and life,

fusing poetry with theater, music, and storytelling, while sharing universal, often hard but honest, and real experiences and verse in a way that draws you in and makes you feel less alone. Yursa's newest book, The How, was written entirely during the pandemic. And we talk about her journey to this moment, explore some of the poems and ideas from that book, and also dive into what it was like to create work that is so close to the bone at a moment like this. So excited to share this conversation with you. And a quick note before we dive in. So at the end of every episode, I don't know if you've ever heard this, but we actually recommend a similar episode. So if you

love this episode, at the end, we're going to share another one that we're pretty sure you're going to love too. So be sure to listen for that. Okay, on to today's conversation. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10, available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required, charge time and actual results will vary. I'm just genuinely curious about a whole bunch of things. And the new book is amazing and beautiful. Thank you, Jonathan.

So, so cool. Is it actually out yet? I know I have an early copy. It is. It is. It's out now. I've taken my breath of exhales and it's, yeah, it's out there. It's out there.

Very, very glad. Yeah. exhaled and it's yeah it's out there it's out there very very glad yeah when the book sort of like hits the street what's your what's your lens on do you pay attention to what people are saying do you just completely ignore it you just like stay in your own space and feel good about it I mean I try and I try and stay in my own space and I try to remain as positive about it as as possible in my own space, you know, and obviously if someone says it's great, then I'm happy to hear that. But yeah, I just, you know, it might sound a bit, I'm always on to the next thing, you know,

I'm always thinking about the next thing. And as much as I think it's important to kind of like celebrate, I'm just naturally on to the next thing, thinking about the next book. So that's what I'm doing now. Yeah, I love that because it's very much my mentality. Yeah. Totally resonate. OK, so now I'm curious about something else. Yes.

When you actually get the physical book in your hands, are you kind of like excited? This is the thing. This is a social object. Or are you kind of like, oh, that's nice. But the process is what mattered to me. And you just sort of like check the box like it's out in the world now. And it doesn't actually mean that much. You know what? It's kind of both because I really like, I mean, I like design. I like the way things look. I like when things have a rich color to them. And I'm really, oh my God, they probably really hate me there because when it's the cover, you know, you probably understand this.

You know the great cover debates when you get sent some proofs and you're like, and then you go back and forth. So yeah, I definitely took a beat for that because I just loved the sort of orange, like the deep orange color of that. I always know what color I want the books to be. And, yeah, just to feel the weight of it, the way it looks, how thick it feels.

I think that's interesting. But, yeah, the process is really is the thing, you know, where I have the most joy and energy. Well, you know, on the good days. Which over the last two years, it's sort of like on any given day, I think for all of us, you never entirely know. How have you been affected, if at all, in terms of sort of like your creative capacity by just the state of the world recently?

I mean, it's so effective because my mental health has, you know, a direct effect on impact on my creativity. And in short, my mental health has to be good. It does. So over the past two years, it's kind of been up and down quite intensely like up and down my creativity so for the first part of the pandemic it didn't really write anything um and I was just finding joy from from other things reading other people watching a lot of people's Instagram lives and you know then there was the protests and that was happening. So there was a lot to sort of take in.

It was 2020 was interesting and I should have been writing throughout most of that. And I was not. I didn't really get to it until after the summer. I'm curious, why do you feel like you should have been writing during that? Well, no, I mean, it was between me and my publisher. Like I said, I was writing this book. That's what I mean. Like I told them I was, it was between me and my publisher. Like I said, I was writing this book. That's what I mean. Like I told them I was writing it.

And, you know, it came out in small, just in dribs and drabs. And I didn't really know what it would be. I always expect the book to be something else than what arrives, you know, at my fingertips. And I think that's fine because I think it's more honest but I definitely didn't expect to write a book like that at all I always have these grand ideas of these these fictional fictional sort of shape-shifting I don't know tales and then what comes out comes out and then yeah i gotta be happy with that yeah i feel like whoever has a creative impulse and was like trying to really create something substantial over the last couple of years there's got to be so much forgiveness that goes along with that because it's sort of like we're all going through our own thing you know and sometimes

that comes out as outflow and sometimes it comes out as just processing. Yeah, yeah. Sometimes you're doing the work inside of you. And so, and that's what you, it's not about production. It's kind of about a slow, slow inspiration or just the deepening of whatever is going on. Did you find that with writing? Did you find that?

I did. And I wrote a book over the pandemic also. And it was really interesting because there were times where I was just like really on and there are times where I was just like, I got nothing. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I felt like I couldn't plan that sort of like a writing schedule

where I sit down and I'm like, I'm going to knock out 2000 words today or write for two hours because I just never knew on any given day. And I think when the world's so uncertain as well, what are you going to do? You're grappling with so many different things at once and wondering what tomorrow's going to look like. So that brings up another curiosity.

Because I feel like, and tell me if this is right from the outside looking in, it feels like a lot of your writing is also, you're writing often things that really appeal to a mass audience, but a lot of it, it feels like you're writing for you. You're writing because you're sort of like, you need to get out of your head and you need to process. And I'm wondering when you're under contract to write a book and it's during this particular season where they're just so much affecting you personally do you ever feel a tension between sort of like what you're writing and just your desire to completely write whatever you need to be okay personally absolutely I did in the last book not with the other two because it was a

different writing process completely and with those I I sort of had the product the book I had the poems it was there already so by the time I had the publisher I already had either in the in the case of the first one the book was done and it was a self published book that they um went on to republish and then with the second one I still had a lot so it was more like shaping but this was different and yeah of course of course there's tension because as well you know I'm gonna blame being an Aquarius I don't really know but there's no structure to anything you know it's just what comes comes uh I've tried to be stricter and I think I have things that work better now but I still it's still a sort of chaos but it's a chaos that I really enjoy um and so yeah that when it

comes to deadlines and stuff I have to I almost trick myself into still believing that it's just for me it's just for me and I could do it or not do it. Yeah, I think we all sort of have our own go-to in order to sort of like do the productive side of the creative process. Sure. I want to dive into the newest one also. And there are a couple of passages

where I'd love you to read and then we can talk a little bit about it. But I also want to take a step back in time also because we kind of jumped right into the deep end of the pool without setting things up. Clearly, as people can tell from your accent, you're from Brooklyn. But before that, I'm guessing there was somewhere else. I know you grew up in Chorley, which is sort of like Northern England. Yeah, Northwest.

And it sounds like a very young age. Mom was West Indies. Dad was Nigerian. Didn't know your dad and ended up around the age of six with your grandparents. And which sounds like on the one hand, it was really powerful, but also really disruptive in your life in a lot of ways. parents were very strict seventh-day Adventists and so I went from my mum's house to but and it was just me it wasn't my brother initially so I went to go and live with them and life changed a lot from six to around 11 life was very different um new set of rules a lot you know it's a very very very strict upbringing very Jamaican very tough and yeah going to school as well in the northwest and being the only person not even the only black person the only person of color there it was so different it was so different and I don't think I'll ever stop drawing on on that kind of thing I think it I think when you have experiences that you don't realize that they they keep returning

to you in different ways all through your life just the way that you consider things or the things that will suddenly come to you in a moment when you're doing something else it's really amazing I think and I have more and more of them all the time I think what led to your mom bringing you to your grandparents when you were six was there something that happened then or so my mom was a single mother and uh she had she had a boyfriend and then she didn't have a boyfriend and that was really tumultuous and she just thought it was better for me to go and live with my grandparents. There's something about it that she didn't think it was safe for me to be there and so yeah and so that's why I live with them and I remember her calling me into the room and saying you're going to live with your grandparents for four years I was like four years

that's like forever and then and then yeah my mum was really good actually which is I'm she was a great communicator in that way and she would really talk to me about very very adult things and I do think that has a lot to do with me being a writer today. How so? The way that she spoke to me and the way that she laid things on the table wasn't always appropriate, but she let me know what was going on in many cases.

Do you feel like your understanding of what was going on at that moment, did you have the understanding then that you have now? Or is it only in hindsight or in conversations that you sort of like the house what the connotations of that were and it's it's really really hard to explain now Jonathan but it's a feeling it's it's a feeling and my mother this woman is telling a little girl something explaining something explaining something and and and letting me know that this move is for my own good and that though while it will be difficult there'll be there'll be a structure there that that i need and being my grandparents was really difficult in in so many ways but in terms of structure and discipline it was incredible.

I don't think I could have had two better teachers than my grandma and granddad. I'm wondering also if she's saying she doesn't know if it's safe, but yet she's also telegraphing to you, but I'm staying in this relationship. What was the subtext there for you and sort of understanding what you do and how you deal with situations like that well that was a huge thing i don't think there's any getting away from the fact that a rift is born there because you understand that whatever it is

that will keep you safe will also divide you. And I think that that is, it's a tough thing to swallow. It's a tough thing to know that somebody cares for you in ways that they may not care as much for themselves or that somebody's need for something is greater and it outweighs, you know, what they, them wanting to be with you or them being able to be with you and it's weird I keep I keep I keep taking this back to writing but when you when you're faced as a child with an adult speak to you in your face with very adult themes you start to understand the human psyche in ways that that can only be shown to you you know they can't be

they can't be taught to you you know you you pick those things up and you become interested in it and it hurts you but you start to you again you start to understand these things as normal they're normal to you it's all you've seen so there's so much in that there's so much in that yeah i mean it's like it plants the seeds of you being a deep observer um sort of like of the human condition starting with like the immediate human condition right around you but also then getting these like strange mixed messages from like your mom was sort of like, you know, being safe is, is really, really important for you, but not for me. And then it's like, well, what's underneath that? Like, how do you unpack that as a six year old, let alone as an adult?

And then, and then how does that shape the way that you step into your own life? Like as you become an adult and figure out, okay, so what's, what situations are okay? How do I, like, what's okay in terms of how I want to be treated in the world? That's true. That's true. You, and then some things you repeat and some things you, you know, you, you become, it becomes like you become the opposite because you won't, you won't, you won't tolerate that. I always find it interesting, actually, how much just repeats generationally, like what we bring about without even consciously trying to bring it about,

but you create the same set of circumstances often that you've seen or, you know, maybe it skips a generation and it's there again. It's really interesting to me. Yeah, we are weird beings. Yeah, we are. You think you just learn, you check the box and then move on. It's like, nah, we sort of like keep cycling back and then up again and then back again.

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Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required. Charge time and actual results will vary. So it sounds like writing also for you touches down at a really young age. I'm curious, do you have a sense what that was about? Was it just an interest? Was it coping mechanism? Was it creative expression? Was it world creating? I'm curious, what was the job of writing for you when you were little? Well, I know exactly how this came about. And it's because my mother read to me when I was really young and she let me read anything that was there and I have an appetite for for language and for words I always have and always will but the reason why I have is because my mum got to me when I was little, like really small, younger than six, way younger, and would read to me

over and over again. I mean, her whole bookcase was available to me. Everything from medical journals to the Kama Sutra, it was there. My mum was like, if you can understand it, read it. And because of that, I developed this facility with language, which meant I was well ahead of reading ages and everything like that. And I mean, it didn't go to maths or anything. I was awful at maths, absolutely terrible, but reading, definitely yes. And because of that, I think when you love language, you write. It's how you express yourself. I think I write much clearer than I speak. And that's because I was reading along with speaking.

And writing just became an extension of that. It's how I communicate with the world. And yeah, when I was young, I think it was a way to tell the truth about things that you're maybe too shy to say or not allowed to say. Because with my grandparents, you couldn't say anything. I mean, you would have got into serious trouble. So, you know, when you write and you put it in the work, it's kind of tolerated a bit better. Yeah.

It's almost like when everything around you is so rigid you need a you need a release valve like somehow like something it has to come out in some way shape or form it sounds like for you writing was was in no small part the release valve for you yeah I love it because you can be totally wild you know I can write about things I would never dream of talking about I do that all the time it's like where I go to you know be let it all out do you feel you're more honest when you write than when you speak completely completely I don't know I mean I don't walk around lying to everyone but I'm I'm an introvert so it's not yeah I I probably don't express,

definitely not in the way that I would when I write, but when I write, I'll write anything. Yeah. I love that. As a fellow introvert, I totally get that. It resonates. It's sort of like if you want to really know me, like read me. Yeah. Because it just comes out differently and more open,

more honest than in the vast majority of conversations like unless you know me really really well for a lot of years same same same and even then you know you're still you're still you're still presenting something you still I guess you still want we want love or we want validation or we want people to like us and I feel like I can be a bit more unlikable in in text or a bit more raw and that yeah I'm addicted to that yeah were you sharing your writing when you were little or was this just writing for you no no I mean I shared I shared at school I was the one at the front of the assembly when the teachers would be like, yes, it's got a poem.

And then I'd read it. And that's another thing as well, encouragement with kids. I think I got encouraged from a really early age. As soon as I shared my writing, I was always asked to read pieces that I'd written at school. And that was the only, I mean, I feel like that was where I shone.

It was the only place in which I thought, you know, I could be as good as anyone else because I was the only one asked to do those things. And that meant a lot to me at that age, just feeling so, like, so different. But so, so, so different. In what ways? I know you've shared a little bit, but tell me more. I mean, being the only black kid, being the only kid that didn't live with their mom, didn't often see their mom, didn't have a dad, was a foot taller than everybody else,

ate Jamaican foods every night instead of like, you know, whatever they were eating there, chips and beans, which I thought was amazing. Having to go to church all day on like from sunset on the Friday, having to observe the Sabbath to sunset on the Saturday, what we had to wear at church. There was so much that was different. Yeah. Yeah. As a kid, do you celebrate the difference?

Or as a kid, are you just sort of like trying to do anything you can to fit in and to not stand out? I wanted to be like everyone else. I wanted long blonde hair. I wanted to go out on Saturdays. I wanted to eat pork and eat. I wanted long blonde hair. I wanted to go out on Saturdays. I wanted to eat pork and eat chips and go to the cinema and have boyfriends. Maybe not, you know, seven and eight, but like when I was a bit older, I wanted to look like the girls that I went to school with. You know, I didn't want this like super religious upbringing.

I wanted to see my mum all the time. I wanted my mum to go shopping. I wanted to know a father or the time I wanted me my mum to go shopping I wanted to know a father or what that was you know so many things um oh you know it's but as I'm talking about it now I think god what better sort of when you're observing all these differences when you're shape-shifting as well to try and fit in with, again, you understand people. Of course, this is a recipe for a writer, for an author. You're observing all the time.

You're on the outside. You want to be part of it. Or maybe you don't all the time. But yeah, you are. You're the other. Yeah. I mean, it's interesting as you're talking, oddly, or maybe not so oddly

tony marson's story the bluest i like comes into my mind and i'm like they're like like real there's there's interesting parallels i can't believe i only read that book in my 20s and then i was like no kidding yeah such a powerful book oh my god it's so powerful and yeah no there it was on the page i was like wow wow yeah so when you're being recognized then as a kid for your writing for your poetry and then being asked to stand up in front of everybody else and as somebody who you know self-identifies as being on the introverted side of the social spectrum, was being forward-facing like that, was being sort of like singled out in that way, even for a good thing, for a talent and a gift,

was that comfortable or uncomfortable for you? I've got to tell you, Jonathan, like reading poetry, performing poetry, singing, anything like that, dancing even, anything like that where it's performance, I have no problem with. And it's kind of part of how I've been brought up in the church. I used to sing all the time, you know. So I'm used problem with. And it's kind of part of how I've been brought up in the church. I used to sing all the time, you know.

So I'm used to that. I'm used to the public speaking side of things, funnily enough. But it was more when you had to be yourself, like a party, you know. And it's just you. And then you're not performing. You're not on a stage in front of people. You don't know your material you just have to show up as yourself and I think yeah where shyness is concerned I think those

those are the parts that were difficult until I learned like several ways of deflecting and pretending not to be afraid yeah the parties are where you would always find me in the kitchen or helping out the host oh really that was your strategy that was my jam i was like it was funny we had a couple years ago we had um ellen hendrickson on who's a psychologist who focused on on social anxiety and she's like you know one of the most powerful coping mechanisms to get comfortable and and so many people have some level of social anxiety she's's like, let's take on a role. So when you go to a party or something like that, it's like, ooh, I'm going to be the helper in the kitchen. So you kind of have like a job to do. That's such a good idea.

It's great. And I was like, I can't believe I've actually been doing that my whole life. I just never really understood that that was my way of feeling sort of like a little less anxious in social situations. I was like, wow, that's kind of cool. That's bloody amazing. I wish I'd got that memo. So writing poetry and performing, you know, is a part of you from the earliest days also, serves all these different purposes. As you shared also, you end up being a foot taller than a lot of other kids in your class at a young age. So you shared also, you end up being a foot taller than a lot of other kids in your class at a young age. So you're standing out for a lot of different reasons.

And then eventually you end up taking this kind of interesting turn into the world of modeling. So what's that about, I guess, is my curiosity. Well, all it was really is because I was taller than everybody else and I remember a point in the the 90s and sort of early it would have been early 2000s when you were tall and you were a girl they would be like you should be a model and so I just thought well that might be a nice way to earn money and so I did it a little bit but it didn't really take off and then I decided to do it even more and I did it in London and moved to South Africa did it there as well and it's just yeah I thought why not why

not do it at the same time as trying to do everything else and it hadn't occurred to me yet that there would be space even though I always wanted to be an author way before I'd written I'd written books before and not very good books, in my teens and had some books rejected and everything. So I left it for a while and then did something I thought was more tangible, which was modeling. Yeah. It sounds like in the back of your mind, though, this was never going to be your thing. It was just kind of like your for now thing. Yeah, for sure. For sure. And then, I mean, there are so many models who do other things on the side. But yeah, I think it was while I took a breath.

And funnily enough, the times in my life where I felt the most sort of out of sync with myself have been the times when I haven't been writing, haven't haven't understood how to find a way in but I'm glad the way in came back came back to me it happened in South Africa while I was modeling actually the way in and then I was going to all of these open mic nights and yeah the poetry in in Cape Town and Johannesburg was just out of this world. And I knew that was a spot. I knew that was my place and that I had to start again. Yeah. Yeah, I have to imagine too, and I'm really curious,

because your time in the world of modeling, for somebody who's a deep observer of human beings and loves to then translate that to writing, it must have been sort of like this really kind of fascinating petri dish for you. Well, it's interesting, you know, like human beings and loves to then translate that to writing. It must have been sort of like this really kind of fascinating petri dish for you. Well, it's interesting, you know, because so, and it's a misconception that this is a really, because of course, on the face of it, it's fashion. And so it's very, it's very, very surface. And, you know, it's quite fake in a lot of spaces.

But, you know, models, some of the most introspective people I know in my life today are models. They travel the world. They're by themselves a lot, a lot. It's quite lonely, you know, that, you know, they're always in hotel rooms with their books and, know or they're they're doing shows with their their books and yeah it is it gives you a lot of a lot of downtime I mean it's really stressful because you're you're just always anywhere that you're told to go but yeah I think I think my introspection probably grew in those spaces and also yeah you're witnessing a lot of because it's not the models right it's it's like a lot of the fashion people, you're witnessing

what's going on there. And some of what's going there is very strange, you know? So yeah, I guess it is a petri dish, I guess. I said no, and then I said yes. Yeah, I think I was using that phrase more in terms of kind of like really interesting data points for you as an observer of life and as a writer to sort of like see the psychology and the social dynamics and the power dynamics. I mean, granted, that's all around us all day, but in that industry in particular, there's a lot. There's a lot going on at any given time. We need them. Y'all need a pilot? Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series X is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping.

And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you eight hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, So you end up in South Africa, Cape Town, and dropping into the scene where there's sort of like a weekly, there's a poetry scene, there's sort of like a weekly, there's a poetry scene, there's a spoken word scene. And it sounds like there was this really interesting group of writers and performers where basically every week you're sort of like jamming together.

It was beautiful. It was, I just turned up there. No, somebody asked me to come. Somebody asked me to go and I turned up and yeah yeah, I just hit with this lyrical mastery. And I was just like, wow, not only just the words, but also the energy. And I was like, yeah, I can do that. And then they said, okay, so the prompt for next week is write about discord in the family. And I was like, well, this is one thing I know, it's that.

And so it went away. And then, yeah, next Monday I was up and like, you know, delivering this poem and I felt it. And then it was, you know, applause at the end. And I was like, no, this is what I do. It was like I hadn't been away from it um but yeah it's strange having to go go all the way there to find that and then I didn't stop writing after that that was that was it that was it yeah it sounds like that that was the moment where you said okay so like this is the thing like I can't like I've

been kind of dipping in and out of it but now like this do you know what Jonathan do you know now I'm talking about it to you do you know what I think it is because I often have to see things to get excited about it and I think that the issue was I was in London and while there was a there is a spoken word community and movement but I wasn't part of it I was sort of on the outside looking in and when I went there I was in the thick of it and I felt it and I saw people performing poetry with energy with vigor and it wasn't this this sort of super like you know academic and erudite way of performing it was just all the energy and pizzazz that that that I feel very strongly you know and so I was like of course this is this

exists and you can do it that way you don't have to be this other thing and I think that's what it was and then I was like so excited about it and knew that this was this was it this was what this was the deal yeah yeah I've also heard you describe that sort of like that time in your life as it was the best of things and the worst of things. It was. It was. Tell me more about what you actually mean by that. Well, the thing that got me to South Africa was just severe depression. I was in London. I rented a room in my friend's house in Notting Hill.

And I was waking up every day and just having this like not even wanting to get out of bed and just just felt horrible often and I just I thought to myself like I can't do this I have to go somewhere I have to do something I have to disrupt it and I that was just a random place I decided to go and I it was only through going there through looking at the place that I saw they had like an African market that meaning they have like a black girl can sort of be a face for any of the brands which was not the same in Europe at the time and I was like okay so I can pay for being here by modeling I was modeling in England in London but it was on and off it wasn't really making me a living and so my mind

was made up I thought I'll try a bit of modeling and then just be there it'll be sunny and I'll make a plan whatever and I meant to go for a few months and ended up there for three years so and yeah those three years yeah so bone was your first book which you self-published um yeah in 14 right when you first self-published it eventually eventually picked up and went after that but the so the poem mental health it shows up in that book but did you write that poem then sort of like in those earlier days? Yes. Okay, so got it. Yes, the poem, yes. So the mental health was, I think, the second or the third prompt at the night in Observatory.

It was a place called Togors. And, yeah, that was the third prompt. Got it. But it was such an up and down time. It was a rocky time. Yeah. I mean, that poem is so powerful. Thank you. And it's all, it's all like tying together in my mind right now, sort of like where you were,

what you were going through and sort of like how that flows out of you. So that was actually then the third prompt in sort of like the poetry night in Cape Town as, as like the initial thing, that's what it was actually written for. Yes. So when you get up and you perform that to a group of people for the first time, this is a deeply, it's a raw but powerful and beautiful and also hopeful in the end poem. What's that like for you? The very first time you step up and do something that kind of personal and revealing. I feel like mental health is usually the first poem that I, even today, that when I'm going to do any kind of reading,

I like to start with. It grounds me. You know, I can feel my feet on the floor. And yeah, it's just, it's personal and it's to me and it's to anybody else. And yeah, I guess it's just what I was feeling at the time. And I remember where I was sitting on the veranda, just like writing it out real quickly

because we don't have very long before, you know, and I don't take long over poems. I try to get them in that first flush. So I know it's, you know, it's just me. And yeah, thinking about it now, I'm going to have a smile on my face all day now i'm thinking because i don't often think about that time but it was it was pretty special as as as difficult as it was it was um it's just the birthplace of a lot of things yeah yeah when you

step to the mic with that poem in your head for the very first time, if you can put yourself back there, are you nervous? Are you alive? Are you indifferent? Are you? I think alive and sort of electrified in a way. nerves it's less apprehension and more kind of just adrenaline that I'm gonna share just at the thought of being able to share something that's that really means something to me and that you know that I consider to be the truth and also that I know everyone goes through because there's nothing that I go through that everybody else doesn't go through so there's that

as well yeah when you were done after that first reading do you remember what the response was oh my god I I I will never forget what that response was I will never forget what that response was ever in my life and um yeah people responded in a way that made me really understand that this is the space, this is what I want to do, this is how honest I want to be all the time. I want this to be my job. I want that honestly to be my job because it's also the only place I can find it. I'm still working on the confidence to show up honest like that

in my everyday life you know the but but i know that it's it's possible we can touch it when we make art when we when we write and this is why i'll never stop so so now i'm curious about something yeah there's an interesting phenomenon actually a friend of mine read a whole book about it called The Alter Ego Effect, where sort of like when you step into like some sort of performance mode, it's not like you're becoming someone different, but you're like, you're stepping into a part of you that is almost like this superhero type of presence where it's sort of like you're wearing that sort of like cape when you're there for the moment and

you're just and it allows you to sort of like channel and express and perform and do these things it's a part of you but it's not a part of you that's really easy to access on a day-to-day basis do you feel like that when you're when you're um performing jonathan you've explained this so so beautifully i do i I feel like, do you know, all it is, is I feel like it's a connection with source and whatever we believe that to be, whether it's you're trapping in from ancestral power that's beyond yourself or you're just getting out of your own way. Because it's hard, right? We're humans and we're a mixture of ego and all kinds of things and we're very rarely just in connection with source without all the other things,

like you're worrying about your presentation and how you look and what other people think about how you look, right? And I think that in that moment when you're really, it's such clarity to the point that when, like, I'm on stage and there's a musician and we're doing the poetry, even, like, the dance moves or the weird dance moves, you feel like a preacher in a gospel, you know, the preachers in the black gospel churches where you're like,

ha, you know, from the Holy Spirit. But I'm joking, but I definitely do feel as though everything from an answer to a question when you can you can answer something really deeply about the question to a question somebody's giving you or any kind of advice or whatever it's definitely not me it's something else that you you're given in that moment and i think it's about yeah becoming like a clear vessel and letting that come through and not ruining it with yourself which is what i think i might do in everyday life when i'm you know shy or whatever so yeah yeah it's interesting um i think so many of us

see other people sometimes in that mode and we're're kind of like, I wish I could be that way. And then we realize that we actually, there are these fleeting experiences in our lives where we actually are, we step into it. And we don't realize that that's always a part of us and in us, but it's just, we don't live in that space. And I don't necessarily know if that's a bad thing, but just to know that actually,

it's not just a part of that other person we aspire to be like but it's actually a part of us and we can step into it when we want to i think it's pretty cool i think that's really cool and yeah who would want to be that all the time because you wouldn't be i guess you you you wouldn't be that earthed you just be you wouldn't be like a human being with, I don't know, there's something about our little insecurities and flaws and second-guessing ourselves. This is also like you and me talking as like two introverts jamming together. If we had an extrovert in the conversation, they'd probably be like, yeah, all the time.

We wouldn't be saying anything as well. If there was an extrovert here, I'd be like, just like nodding and smiling. That's what I do. I nod and smile a lot or just listen. Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.

There is a line actually that then in mental health that there's this one, I mean, the whole poem is really powerful, but there's this one line, see that just outside there are people lined streets that are emptier than your insides that I read that so many times. I was like, wow. Yes. I think we have all felt that that so many times. I was like, wow. Yes. I think we have all felt that experience so many times. And sort of like that line ends up in a poem, which ends up in this first book, Bone, which you put out yourself. Yes. And people resonate with really powerfully,

ends up eventually getting picked up by Penguin and published more traditionally. A little while after that, you end up, so it's interesting because this is still really in the realm of poetry. And then the next thing you do that's book length, The Terrible, which would come out in 18, maybe it was 2018, which is much more memoir, right? And it's sort of like really talking about your experience with personal struggles and mental illness and abuse and addiction. And I'm curious what that's like. So you're putting into the world these poems, which talk about these things, but in this sort of like artistic, poetic way.

And then the terrible is sort of like more, it's a different thing than I'd seen you put out before that. And I'm curious what that was like for you to sort of put that into the world. This is another example of it having something beyond you doing this. Because me, Yersa, does not want to talk about my personal, personal, personal. Naturally. It just isn't a thing, you know? I'm not that way and yet

this book comes out with the grittiest grit of the grittiest and in which I'm honest about so many things I've never told a living soul before because oh god I mean they honestly my agent said do you have anything else at the time when Penguin was going to publish Bone? And I said, yeah, even though they didn't, because I, you know, I'm an opportunist and a hustler and that's how I grew up and you make your opportunities. And I was like, I can write something. And then I thought it was going to be this beautiful,

like genre bending fictional book. And then it's just me just coming out. And I'm just like, oh, I'm writing a memoir. Okay then. And then I try not to think about it. It comes and it comes and it comes and it comes. And then it's done. And there it all is.

I didn't intend to do that at all but I couldn't hide from it when it was coming because I was in service to it and my story is like the story is more powerful than me I'm just like who it's who it's coming through and it could have come through any any other person who you know know we read sort of memoirs all the time and yeah I just think it's it would be arrogant to kind of start putting myself into it and putting my fear into it I just have to to do it and let go I think because once it meets the air it's something else anyway it's not really yours it's it's whoever whoever reads it it belongs to them in a way so if it's coming out just just let it you know it's how i wrote bone you know uh yeah yeah

i mean i think that is often one of the hardest things for us to do is just let it flow you know because we want to pre-judge it before it hits the page and say, like, is it worthy of being even memorialized? Is it going to be accepted? You know, like, is it the way that I want the story to be perceived about me rather than just saying, no, this is the truth? Exactly. And I had to get out of the way because I knew what it was going to bring. And I knew that, you know, I was revealing things that people couldn't or wouldn't know if I hadn't read the book, written the book. But my answer to that was just not to think about it.

I didn't. If I thought about it too much, it wouldn't be out there. And then I'm so happy that it's out there and it comes with its stuff. It does. But, you know, the most important thing me is is the work and the story and and whether or not it can touch someone who has a similar story or thinks that you know maybe because they've experienced all these things or done these things that they're not worthy of whatever

uh it's that's what it's for that's what it's for. That's what it's for. And I understand that, the purpose. So I have to politely step out of the way and let these things come out. Yeah, which is very often really hard to politely do. So when you sit down then to write your new book, The How, a note on the great work of meeting yourself, which you write during the pandemic, sort of like in your own space in Brooklyn, do you have an intention for this book? Or is it the type of thing where you're just like, okay, so I'm sort of trapped inside a whole lot right now and that something needs to come out. And because when we were first, when we started

a conversation, you were sort of like, this is the first book where the form really, it wasn't there before it happened. It's sort of like the form happened along the way as you just, you wrote the form into what it needed to be, which can be a really uncomfortable experience. Oh, it was so uncomfortable. It was so uncomfortable. And at times I thought, why am I, why am I writing these things that people already know? Like I was fighting with myself. I was like, oh, one of the things that I find the most difficult is, is like the idea of stating the obvious. And it, it's where I, I I I trip up on myself because I'm like oh god why are you telling people this they know of course people know you know we know we we know these

things but it doesn't mean that it can't be stated in a new way or even in the same way it doesn't mean it can't be stated and so yeah my inner critic was hard at work during that. Also because I'd taken so long to even decide what it would be. And even when I was writing it, I didn't know what it would be. I thought, is it a series of letters? What is this? And it was another one where I just had to just be in the moment with it. Yeah. And so it's interesting because I was trying to figure out, I'm like, what actually is

this? Like, what's the format? Because on the one hand, you know, you're writing similarly to ways that you have in the past, it's sort of like beautiful long form poetry, but sort of like there's verse and, but there's also, it's this sort of like, you know, special kind of magical hybrid form. But then you do something really interesting at the end of most of the pieces, which is you add a prompt. You sort of like, okay, so here's something to think about, or here's something to do,

rather than sort of ending and saying, okay, so I would just express something that's specific to me, but also universal, because I know a lot of other people feel this, and just let it linger in people's space. You finish and sort of say, I'm going to plant a seed now for something for you to think about. I was curious about that decision. Yeah, because you know what? I feel like sometimes when things are actionable, they hit a different part of us, and it's more resonant. And sometimes it's really beautiful to read a passage,

and you think, yeah, yeah, we'll do that. And then you read the next one and then you don't remember the first one anymore. If you're anything like me, I just am all over the place. And so I think it's just a grounding thing. And really I meant those prompts to be for anything. Do you want to talk to a friend about that? Do you want to write?

Will it work for something you're writing? So it's open-ended but it it is it's like a an invitation back to yourself and to to see if if if what you've read works with you and you know maybe one of the prompts in the whole book will work but that'll be the one that'll be the one that opens something else hopefully so i did all this with hope but yeah i kind of like to be able to to um to plant those seeds in a way yeah no i thought it was really kind of cool and interesting um and not something that you normally see it was sort of like this blend of forms this blend of different things um i would love if you could read one or two things. I was thinking milestones and other cons is really kind of cool and interesting. I think would really resonate with a lot of people with where they are right now. Okay.

Milestones and other cons. Destination versus now. We are here for a prescribed and brief amount of time, a blip, longer for some than others. We are here to create, to love, to learn, to grow, to share our gifts and, most importantly, to experience joy. It's not about getting to point B, but the journey, they say. And it sounds like a lie, but it is truer than we realize. What is point B anyway, but number two in a long list of even more things? To be clear, when I speak of joy, I don't mean the intangible state that we call happiness. When I speak of joy, I speak of something altogether more nuanced and real to me,

something I can taste and feel and name. I speak of the experience and dynamism of being alive in the world. I speak of darkness and light, arousal and feeling. Joy is largely to be found in the dreaming and conceiving of a thing, the travelling toward it, who we are when we are with others in and around our path and what we do on the way. The destination is no fixed point and it is never all it's promised to be. No sooner do we land than we look for the very next place on which to set our sights. That in itself is no bad thing. It is incredible and natural that our desires are always regenerating,

that our desires should shift. But we must be wary of assigning a feeling of ultimate satisfaction to the experience of completion, or we will be disappointed. In order to feel vital and have any real enjoyment, we must find the beauty in the dreaming and planning and less so in the outcome. If joy is to exist at all it can only ever be now otherwise nothing great is solved when we succeed. We think that there'll be this fanfare and happiness will come but no if you don't feel the joy in getting it there'll be no more joy in the having it. Sorry, humans are just set up that way. We love a problem to solve, a thing to make our god,

something we can exalt, something to pin our dreams on. Nothing will give you the feeling. It must exist on its own, without condition, alive and breathing, reliant on nothing. And this does not always seem to make sense, since validation, whether social or monetary, seems to lie on the other side of the line, the green over yonder, the next place. When we have achieved, insert milestone, things will be better. When you have gone, insert place, things will be better. When you have gone, insert place, things will be better. When you have acquired, insert new material things, things will be better. And this is because we

live in a system that applauds material wealth, appearances and status. But after gaining some of the things that we said we wanted, we are still never quite there. Well, what is the point of the journey, you might say, if our day in the sun means nothing, if the accolades and achievements are pointless? I do not mean to deny the importance of goals. As highlighted in the previous chapter, it's a transformative exercise to name and say what we want and to imagine those things with creativity and delight. But I speak to the intentionality of the goal, what we want and for which reasons. I mean that the goal will solve nothing in and of itself

if we are not suitably equipped. I mean that we can't use the promise and gifts of tomorrow to escape this very moment. If you are not spiritually fit right now, running anywhere else is pointless. The next place will never save you. Name four things that you wanted and now have. Do you still want them? Did they change you? For how long? Name four things that you attach great value to now. How long have you wanted them?

Is there anything that links them together? Do you think that they will change you? If so, how? Now think of two instances in which you are completely fixed on some future outcome. How can you actively begin to enjoy your progress towards those goals in this very moment? Such inquiries are important, whether we know the answers right away or whether the questions hang in the background flowering oh that was okay no that was beautiful and so poignant and so of the moment too in so many ways um because i think so many of us are, we are rushing towards something, whether it's to get out of the current moment or whether it's to achieve or acquire, accomplish something else. And, and like you said, not that they're not that actually, you know, doing those things is meaningless, but it's like, what are you actually associating with them giving to you or making you feel?

And what are you giving up? Like what, how much of your humanity are you giving up along the way in the name of that thing which may never come yeah that's that's it that's it and even you know it kind of links to what i was saying before about going on finishing the book and going on to a next book that is you know i'm writing this book to myself also you know that is it's symptomatic of the same thing you know wanting that feeling again of completion and whatever you think it means to whatever you think you'll get from that but yeah it's it's it's not lost on me that you know these are things that I have to constantly remind myself. Yeah, the notion that the only there there is here now, you know. Yeah, I love that.

It's like we know that in our bones, but we don't live it. It's sort of like that thing where it's like intellectually that makes sense. And yet we just sort of like tuck it away for another day. Yeah. Yes. So true. There's another piece, The Desire Behind the Desire. I'm not going to ask you to read it, but there were a couple of lines in there where you write, if we are artists, truth is the only way in which we can make the work truly resonant and urgent. If we are true about what we are feeling, no matter how specific, it will become universal.

That is why when your work meets the air, there's nothing to fear. Yeah, I think you're always going to touch someone by being as honest as you possibly can. Whatever that truth is, whatever that truth is, is valid and and we'll set somebody free you know starting with yourself it will travel and it will be powerful i think and i think that's what we're all trying to get closer to right yeah we're trying

i'm trying uh in in a lot of different ways. For sure. Although I think it scares us also a lot because I think as much as we want to live and understand and see things clearly, it also sometimes means accepting hard truths about ourselves, about society, about the world. And sometimes we choose delusion

just because we don't want to deal with that because we know it's coming if we say yes to truth on all levels. That's true. That's so true. A bit of delusion from time to time, you know, escapism, whatever we call it. But yeah, you know, I'm the most moved by things that remind me of the truth, even if it's uncomfortable. Yeah, those are the things that resonate with me. Not always ready for them, though.

Or any of us, right? Right. Feels like a good place for us to come full circle in our conversation as well. So sitting here in this container of a good life project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life, what comes up? To live a good life and fall in love with the small things and fall in love with them often, fall in love with them daily, really notice them. Try not to let the beautiful parts of your life slip by unnoticed. Thank you. Thank you.

Thank you. Jonathan, that was such a beautiful conversation. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, safe bet you will also love the conversation that we had with Cleo Wade about crafting language and performing and moving people. You'll find a link to Cleo's episode in the show notes. And of course, if you haven't already done so, go ahead and follow Good Life Project

in your favorite listening app. And if you appreciate the work that we've been doing here on Good Life Project, go check out my new book, Sparked. It'll reveal some incredibly eye-opening things about maybe one of your favorite subjects, you, and then show you how to tap these insights to reimagine and reinvent work

as a source of meaning, purpose, and joy. You'll find a link in the show notes, or you can also find it at your favorite bookseller now. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever. It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-nest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch,

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