Good Life Project - Zoe Chance | How to Be More Influential (ethically)

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

What do you think of when you hear the word influence? Or the phrase, “be an influencer?” Maybe you think about the ability to affect another person, to have influence over them. Or, to persuade them to adopt an idea, point of view or opinion. Or, maybe take an action or commit to something, or buy something. Whether we’re comfortable with the notion of influence or persuasion or not, we’re all immersed in overlapping processes of subtle and not-so-subtle influence all day, every day. And to better understand how to both cultivate our own skills and tools, and also become more aware of the scripts that are running all around us, I’m so excited to be able to sit down with my friend, Dr. Zoe Chance. Zoe is a writer, teacher, researcher, and climate philanthropist obsessed with the topic of interpersonal influence. She earned her doctorate in behavioral science from Harvard and now teaches “Mastering Influence and Persuasion,” the most popular course at Yale School of Management. And, her framework for behavior change is the foundation for Google’s global food policy that helps over 100,000 people make healthier choices every day. Before focusing on academic pursuits, she also managed a $200 million segment of the Barbie brand for Mattel.Zoe teaches smart, kind people to raise money for charity, get elected to political office, fund startups, start movements, save lives, find love, negotiate great deals and job offers, and even get along better with their kids. In other words, she helps people to use their superpower of influence as a force for good. And, by the way, if you love today’s conversation, you’ll also love her book, Influence is Your Superpower.You can find Zoe at: Website | Twitter If you LOVED this episode you’ll also love the conversations we had with Charles Duhigg about building habits.Check out our offerings & partners: My New Book Sparked | My New Podcast SPARKEDVisit Our Sponsor Page For Great Resources & Discount Codes Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Maybe if you did only one thing in your life to be more influential, it would be to choose to like each person that you meet with or that you encounter and to do whatever it takes to like them. The most important person is the other person. It's not you. So what do you think of when you hear the word influence or the phrase be an influencer? Well, maybe you think about the ability to affect another person, to have influence over them or to persuade them to adopt an idea, a point of view, maybe an opinion, or maybe take an action or commit to something or buy something or buy into something, whether we're comfortable with the notion of influence or persuasion or not, we are all immersed in overlapping processes of subtle and not so subtle influence all day, every day. It's simply a fact of human interaction. And to better understand how to both cultivate our own skills and tools and also become more aware of the scripts that are running

all around us all day. I'm so excited to be able to sit down with my friend, Dr. Zoe Chance. So Zoe is a writer, teacher, researcher, climate philanthropist obsessed with the topic of interpersonal influence. She earned her doctorate in behavioral science from Harvard and now teaches mastering influence and persuasion, the most popular course at the Yale School of Management. And her research has been published in top academic journals, covered in global media. She speaks internationally for Fortune 500 firms and leading NGOs, gave a wildly popular TED Talk, How to Make a behavior addictive, and her framework for behavior change is the foundation of Google's global food policy that helps over 100,000 people make healthier choices every day. And before focusing on academic pursuits, she also just happened to manage a $200 million

segment of the Barbie brand for Mattel. Fundamentally, Zoe teaches smart, kind people to raise money for charity, get elected to office, fund startups, start movements, save lives, find love, negotiate great deals and job offers, and even get along better with their kids. In other words, she helps people to use their superpower of influence as a force for good. And by the way, if you love today's conversation, you will also love her book, Influence is Your Superpower. So excited to share this conversation with you. I'm Jonathan Fields, and this is Good Life Project. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here. It has the biggest display ever.

It's also the thinnest Apple Watch ever, making it even more comfortable on your wrist, whether you're running, swimming, or sleeping. And it's the fastest-charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series 10. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone XS or later required.

Charge time and actual results will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg.

You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight Risk. We sat down originally a chunk of years back in the studio in New York City and went deep into probably more of your personal journey and story and touched on the work that you've been doing also.

But we're going to go deep into that work, into the world of influence today. And because that is what your new book is about, that is what you've been focusing on. You make this really interesting statement early on in the writing. Influence, you say, is your only means of survival when you come into this world. And it's what has allowed our species to survive and thrive. Talk me through this. Influence is the only thing that allows you to survive your babyhood because you have to influence other people to take care of you and feed you and protect you and keep you warm.

We're not like other species that get launched into the world knowing how to swim or run or even having a shell. And we're basically born in our fourth trimester, right? But we can communicate and we're made to love each other. And that's not an insignificant part of the influence capabilities that we retain through adulthood, even though a lot of us forget it. And then if we look at all of the human accomplishments that have allowed us to be so adaptable and to span the globe and do some great things and some horrible things, all of these have also involved interpersonal influence. That's how we collaborate and how we work together. And then on our own

personal journeys, and you and I are both excited about personal development, I know. When you think about every single thing that you want to accomplish, maybe short of spiritual enlightenment, it involves persuading someone, and maybe that someone is yourself, to take action and to help you or do something on your own behalf. But it's also underappreciated in that a lot of us find it kind of slimy or creepy or manipulative. So we don't even want to practice or study the superpower that we have. Yeah, I mean, it is so interesting, right? Because it is this thing where anything that we want to do or accomplish or be or become in the world involves in some way, shape or form, making a choice and taking an action, which means we're either influencing or have been influenced to do that. And oftentimes

it means not doing it alone, which means that like, you know, we are in a mode of being in this position of influencing or being influenced. And yet there is this popular association with the word that feels, I think for a lot of people, icky. Right. You know, we're just sort of taught it's, well, it's manipulation and it is by default bad. Yeah. Do you feel that at all? You know, I don't, but probably because in no small part, I have spent years studying influence and behavior change and language and patterns and all these different

things. So I think I have a different lens on it. I have almost like a clinical lens on it. To me, it's sort of like the ethics aren't in its existence. It's in the way that it's applied. Not in its existence, in the way that it's applied. I love that. I completely agree also that influence is power bad, and so we step away from it, then what we're doing is we're leaving the world in the hands of the power-hungry people who have no qualms about studying and practicing influence. Yeah, it's almost like we're burying our heads in the sand, right? And saying, well, if I don't participate, maybe it doesn't exist. But in fact, it does. We just don't, we lose a sense of agency, sort of like in the container of influence that swirls all around

us all day, every day. Yeah. And like you sort of said, I think we are influencing people all the time. It's just, we may not realize it. And if we don't realize it and we're not doing it intentionally, then we're not influencing them in the ways that we would like to be influencing them. Yeah. So a lot of these ideas actually showed up for you early in your life, not in the context of the way that you sort of like step into them now, like after having pursued advanced degrees and really studying human behavior. But in the early years, you were in the world of performing arts and acting. And it's interesting because if you think about that, on the one hand, it's all about the craft. It's about playing roles. It's about storytelling. But on a larger scale, do you

feel like looking back at sort of like that experience now that becoming in some way, shape or form, mastering the skills of influence was a part of that experience. Absolutely. And when you say mastering skills of influence, a lot of people hear that word. And my course at Yale is called Mastering Influence and Persuasion. A lot of people hear the word mastering and they think of it as something that you can do, and then you've gotten to the destination, and you're a master, like, I don't know, a taekwondo master or something. But when I use that word, it's a path. So you decide to be on the path of mastery, and you're learning, and you're inspiring, and you're continuing to develop yourself. So I do see myself on that path of mastering influence. The acting part, and also I did

directing and I did theater and I did film, it started very inauspiciously specifically because I was so uninfluential as a child and I really felt invisible. People would talk over me and I had this theory that my voice was the same frequency as the ambient sounds of the universe. And that's why people couldn't hear me, which of course was just that I was really, really nerdy and really, really shy. But I auditioned for this play. I think I was in third grade.

It guaranteed everyone a speaking role. It was Aladdin. And I sucked so much that I was cast as cobbler number three and I had the line shoes for sale. It wasn't a great start to an acting career. But what I learned as I continued to, first of all, audition was facing rejection, which is an incredible skill to have.

But even more importantly than that was how to authentically connect with people. And most people who haven't done theater don't realize that when you're acting, you're not faking an emotion, you're feeling an emotion, and you're not faking a connection to another human being. You're actually creating a real connection to another human being. I had this great acting teacher at Berkeley whose name was Marty Berman. And his theory was that the most important thing about acting is that the most important person on stage is always the other actor. And he was incredible at just reading a scene with somebody. And some of the actors in our class really sucked.

And I was kind of like middle. It's not like I was great. But even the worst, worst, most annoying, unskilled actor, he could read a scene with that person and they would be so good that you just wanted to cry. And that's the perspective that I try to bring to my coaching of people who want to be influential is to take the perspective that the most important person is the other person. It's not you. Yeah. Which is sort of the opposite of, I think what we think about that when we think about the context of influence or like, oh, it's all about me and what I want and what I want other people to do, even if we're not verbalizing it sort of like for me.

Right, right. And it's all about like, what is the net effect for me? How do I win in this context rather than making it almost an act of or a practice of generosity or like collaborative generosity to a certain extent. Exactly. I'm trying to shift the whole idea of influence from this transactional kind of thing that you're talking about to a relationship. And in a relationship, the relationship is what counts, right? That's what we invest in. And it also entails the idea that sometimes the other person would be receiving more of the benefits. Sometimes you would be receiving more of the benefits. And maybe it doesn't even equal out over time.

And that's okay. In some relationships in which we're very influential, they're mentoring relationships where we're doing a lot more of the giving, right? And then, well, and some are mentoring relationships where we're doing a lot more of the giving, right? And then we'll, and some are mentoring relationships where we're doing a lot more of the receiving. And sometimes we'll have collaborations where we just want to contribute. And sometimes we'll have collaborations where we're on the receiving end of that. So I, I hate the idea of bean counting and I don't think anyone really wants to be involved in too many relationships like that. Yeah, I think when we talk about the idea of influence feeling slimy,

my sense is that's in no small part where it comes from because I think anything that feels consistently transactional to us eventually doesn't feel good. Because it is, it's sort of like you're keeping this running tally in your mind of like, how much do I owe or how much am I owed? And you're always trying to sort

of like zero out the ledgers to a certain extent or have an advantage in the ledgers. But there's a cognitive load to that. And I have to imagine there's an emotional load to that also, like sort of like constantly doing that math. Yeah. I'm a huge fan of Adam Grant and I particularly like his work on reciprocity styles and givers and takers and matchers. And I find it a fruitful topic of discussion. When we talk about the matchers in this taxonomy are people whose motivation is fairness and justice, which is a beautiful motivation. And most of us are matchers. We are more of those people that you're describing, where we have this cognitive load of checks and balances. And a lot of us are doing that with generosity of spirit, where we don't want to ask for, say, a favor that we can't repay. And if somebody does something for us, we're looking for turning our relationships into transactions. And we're holding ourselves back a great deal from really becoming visionary leaders, because visionary leaders have to ask for far more than they canintuitive. And I want to explore that a little bit more. But before we dive into that, there's also something else that you write, which is that trying to influence somebody means that you are a, quote, threat in a number of different ways. A threat to their time, a threat to their money, to their pride, their social capital, their attention in no small part. And I was trying to wrap my head around, okay, so how does that show up in sort of like the dynamic between people? We all have what I call this inner two-year-old

whose main reaction to everything in the world is, you're not the boss of me. And any parents who've had two-year-olds can totally relate. They love to say no, right? My daughter, when she was around that age, her favorite song was Amy Winehouse's song, Rehab, because the chorus is no, no, no. So we have this natural resistance to influence. And this is because our brain, my theory is that it's because our brain is designed for survival, and that means that the even if what they have to offer is awesome, we focus on what's going to get taken away. And in behavioral economics, there's lots of research on loss aversion.

And what that means is just that there's a big imbalance in our valuation of losses and gains and losses get weighed about twice as heavily as gains. So this is what's going on when we're trying to influence someone. Often, those of us who are nice, kind people, which is most of the world, we are wanting to offer them something good, or we are willing to do something for them if they wanted. We're not going in with this selfish attitude of just trying to take as much as we can, but what they feel is that they focus on first is what we're taking away from them. So we just need to be aware of that as someone trying to be influential,

collaborate, share ideas, and make good stuff happen. Yeah. I mean, because if you go into it, realizing that the default response and not even a conscious response to a lot of people is going to be the perception that you are what's about to come out of your mouth, or like they're probably even anticipating after the first three words or the rest of the sentence is in some way going to threaten my bank account, my pride, my social capital, my whatever it is, that if we go into it knowing that it's sort of like, well, how would we actually even step into that conversation before we even say a word in a way that sort of potentially lowers barriers or

drops the defenses or reframes it away from threat and into something that's more interesting or appealing. Yeah. And when we're talking about threats, the biggest one probably is a threat to our freedom. And we can feel that when somebody says something to us that begins with the words, you should. Anytime someone says you should, I think all of us feel that, no, I shouldn't. And it's hard to even hear the rest of what they have to say. So one of the things that we can do is in jargony terms called reinforcing their autonomy, but it's just letting the person know that you know that they're totally free to do whatever they want and you're not the boss of them. So inner two-year-old wants to say, you're not the boss of me. So you're preempting the inner

two-year-old saying, I'm not the boss of you. And you could sometimes actually use those words. You could use words like, listen, it's not up to me, but if I were in your situation, I might, or you might even say, it's not up to, it's totally your call, but would you like to know what I would do maybe in this situation? And opening up a conversation, asking a question like that sparks curiosity. So it's shifting from threat to curiosity where they can't say no, if you're going to let them know that you have a good idea, right? They instantly want to know. Or yeah, you can just walk up and say like, hey, would you like to hear an idea, right? And a lot of times questions are easier and more pleasant to respond to than statements or even

great ideas. It's not that you always have to do this, but you can, for example, this is why we do small talk. And some cultures do a lot of talk before something like a negotiation where what you're showing is that you care about that person. You're investing in the relationship. There's research. So I guess I'm saying there are lots of different ways. And I know you maybe wanted one simple one. There's also research on what's called the time-ask effect by Jennifer Ocker and Wendy Liu, which is the finding that when a charity is going to ask for money, they get a lot more money if they first ask for time in asking for advice or asking for volunteer hours, because then the person feels valued rather than just feeling like a wallet. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Because on the surface, you might actually make the assumption, well, I think for many people would actually probably tell you that their most valuable asset right now is not in fact money,

but time. So they actually value, it's more precious to them. And it's, so it's interesting that research would show that if you actually ask for their time, even though they may feel it's a more precious asset and it's certainly, you know, it is the one non-renewable asset that we all have, you can renew money that, um, because going along with that is the assumption that, well, like there's a respect for my time, my intelligence, my whatever it is, that that changes the dynamics that you're, like there's a respect for my time, my intelligence, my whatever it is, that that changes the dynamics that you're actually willing to give up something that many people deem more precious than money. And then around on the back end of that, are willing to part with money. That's so fascinating.

That's so cool. And you're absolutely right. And I hadn't connected it in that way. It is really cool. Yeah. So interesting. As you're sharing right. And I hadn't connected it in that way. It is really cool. Yeah, so interesting. As you're sharing that too, I had this interesting thought bubble. It's actually sort of like a visualization. So a dear friend of mine who's a phenomenal And it was never, it was exactly as you're saying, she was never saying, here's what I want you to do. She'd never say, here's your assignment. She's never say like, here's the, like the, what she would say is, I'd love to invite you to think about this. And the word invitation was almost always a part of the prompt. And it was pretty clear from the outside looking in that she was saying, you really got to do this. But in interacting with the people who she was sort of like building, you know, this psychological safety and trust and rapport with, she would almost always use this

phrase, like, I'd love to invite you to do this. And I would look and it was amazing to see the response to that because people would lean in and there was an openness to that. And you're sort of like describing more of what was really going on underneath the hood there because you're, it's like you're, you are leading from a place of saying, I respect your agency and autonomy. And, and so here's something to think about, but it's up to you at the end of the day. That's, that's pretty cool. You always should. That's so funny. You always should. That's so funny. You always should.

Just after I was saying, don't use this word. It's almost always a good idea to leave the other person's space to say no. And I love that. I invite you. I'd like to invite you because there's this open-ended possibility within that that the other person can say no, right? Even if you know, okay, she wants you to do this thing, she's saying, I'm leaving you space to say no. And when you leave people space to say no, ironically, by taking away the pressure, you make them more inclined to say yes. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I've also seen, you know, over the years I've been trained in

copywriting and one of the things you learn in copy and marketing, especially when it comes to language is like everything gets tested. So there are a million versions of phrases and sentences and that get tested all with the ultimate goal of conversion, which is effectively how influential has this text or script or video, whatever it's been in influencing somebody to take an action to generally to make a purchase. And some variation of the phrase, you know, the decision is yours, increases conversion by giving somebody, reminding somebody that in fact, they don't have to do anything. They're more than welcome to just say like,

this isn't right for me, but actually by very actively reminding somebody of that, it actually makes them more likely to be open to what you're asking them or inviting them to consider. Yeah, isn't that so weird? Because of course the decision is theirs, obviously. And when I teach this stuff, a lot of people think that it sounds kind of silly and strange. And there's some resistance to this idea that we shouldn't have to remind people

that of course they're the boss of them, but they really appreciate it. Though a caveat that I would put out there though, is when you were talking to someone who already feels like a boss, maybe they are your boss, or maybe it's just a very high status person that the way that you would give them this freedom is different from the way you would give freedom to someone who say you are the boss of. So I wouldn't say, I would like to invite you to think about to my boss. Yeah. I couldn't, I could see that not going well. Yeah. And my boss is scary. So I would, I would say something like, I know you're super busy,

but, or I don't know if this is the right kind of thing that you might be interested in. I would just acknowledge there might be any reason for him to say no to me on this. So I'm leaving space for that. And so in a lot of the interpersonal influence stuff that we might do, power and status play a role and we just have to be mindful of it. Yeah, no, I think it's, I'm glad you brought that up because I think it's an important thing because we all step into a conversation or an interaction not on an equal playing field. I think it's probably a lot more rare than it is common that two people show up in a conversation, in an interaction, engagement with equal status, equal power, equal control, and circumstances that sort of like have them with similar amounts of privilege at the same time. And it is important, I think, to acknowledge that. There's a big sort of centerpiece of the conversation that you offer around influence

that I want to dive into also and then build out from. It's this idea of building on in no small part what I think folks who've been down the behavioral economics rabbit hole and seeing Daniel Kahneman's sort of like work around these two different thinking systems. He would describe them as thinking system one and two. You have a more visceral, animalistic approach. You sort of say, OK, so we're going to talk about these the way that your brain works as the gator and the judge, and let's talk about what that means in the context of influence. So walk me through this model. This model came from me teaching these two systems as system one and two, including two executives who were already excited about behavioral economics and already read books

like Danny Kahneman's Thinking Fast and Slow, or at least they had bought it. Most people haven't finished it. It's 800 pages long. It is a big book. The idea behind the names System 1 and System 2 was very intentional. And it wasn't Danny Kahneman. It was other researchers, Stanovich and West, who originally coined it. The idea was that it encompasses all other dual process theories, like left brain, right brain, thinking versus feeling, things like that. So they chose those generic names intentionally. However, when you learn them with these generic names, it's very

hard to keep them straight. And my taxonomy that I use to teach these is the gator and the judge. And that's taking into account how your brain actually works, that we remember things that we can visualize and that we can contextualize. So system one is like an alligator in that it is very, we can say that it's primitive. It's definitely unconscious, intuitive, automatic. When it takes action, it's very fast, but its dominant response is laziness and doing nothing. Real life alligators weigh up to a thousand pounds and they only even want to eat a couple pounds of meat per week. They can go up to three years without eating anything at all. And their brains are the size of a walnut. So this system, and I guess I should have explained system one and system two are the mental processes that guide all of our decisions and behavior.

The dominant one is this alligator one, system one. And we don't experience it because it's unconscious, but this is the one that's always scanning for threats and opportunities and that reacts strongly to threats and even over-identifies threats. This is where our biases, cognitive biases and social biases come from. Very efficient, very lazy. The other one, system two that I call the judge is the conscious one. And this is slow, deliberative, just like a judge considering cases, carefully weighing the evidence pro and con. And it is mentally taxing. This is the conscious focused attention. So because it's taxing and costly, we actually don't use and can't use that much of it.

And it gets depleted relatively quickly and easily, even for actual judges. But we tend to think that we're in that conscious, rational mode where we think we can make objective decisions. And then we project that on other people, too, when we try to influence them, especially if we're smart, especially if we think they're smart. And especially if we're nice, we're trying to influence people as though they are in this conscious, slow, deliberative, and air quotes, rational mode of thinking. But almost all the time, they're in alligator mode. And the alligator has a huge influence on the judge and the judge has very little influence on the alligator. Whether you're in your running era, Pilates era, or yoga era, dive into Peloton workouts that work

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The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him, we need him. Y'all need a pilot.

Flight Risk. So basically we have this sort of less than conscious system. It's a script that's running all the time and it controls the vast majority of the decisions that we make and the behaviors and the actions that we take. And then we have this conscious system, which is much more energy intensive. So it's sort of like, it's almost like a matter of conservation of energy. Like our brain isn't running that script all that often, but when it's needed, that's the one that we perceive because it's a part of our conscious process. It's rational. And we probably like to think of ourselves as rational beings also. So we probably want to sort of like elevate that.

Can I say something about the rational part? Rationality is an influence process. The process of reason is persuasion. So there is an end goal, and then we recruit evidence to support that end goal or that hypothesis. It's not that they're just facts floating along in the universe and we've recruit whatever facts float by. The reasoning process that the judge or system two does is always going to be influenced by our unconscious gator mind. And that includes our preferences. So gator is the domain of all emotions. And it includes things like our habits, automatic behaviors, and it includes which facts

even come to our attention. So when we think of ourselves as rational, really what we're doing a lot more of the time is rationalization, but we don't know it. Yeah. So we're sort of like filtering so that we can tell ourselves that we're rational, but there's a whole bunch of, there are a lot of subscripts going on that we're not consciously aware of that are controlling what we think is a rational process on the surface. Right. To give a visual kind of illustration that people could picture about this efficiency and like you said, conservation of resources. Even our visual processing system itself works that way. And the only thing that we can see in our whole visual field with clarity is this tiny pinpoint center of our vision that covers a tenth of a percent of our retina.

And then everything else we're just guessing at because we don't have enough brain space to see the world in fine detail. And that's how our brain is processing everything else as well. We can focus on this one tiny, tiny piece at a time, and then everything else is the domain of emotions and habits and guesses. I mean, I love that. And what's both fascinating and a little bit scary is that we think that everything that sort of like we're seeing and we're thinking is the fact of what's in front of us or what's within us. But in fact, our brain is manufacturing a ton of stuff along the way. So if we think about this in the context of influence,

like we want to influence a conversation or an outcome or persuade someone we love dearly to give up this habit, which is massively destructive to their health. Right. And, you know, my sense is that most of us would, would start up as saying, okay, so let me harness all the facts. I'm going to put together a presentation, right? Because let's, and that's, and that's our, our, our judge saying, well, you know, like this is the way that we are. Right. And this is the way you convince somebody. So system one, the gator is the first responder always. System two, the judge is the second guesser, but only sometimes. And metaphorically, what this means is that information doesn't matter unless they're interested. So the first

thing for us to focus on is their interest, which could be we're making a human connection like we talked about earlier. And then because they're interested in us, they might be more interested in some information that we have to share. to have information be persuasive is if it's supporting it, the desire that they already have. So we need to create that desire or at least that interest. Sometimes it's fear in the information that we have to say, and then the rationalizing that they're going to do can support our desire or hypothesis, the thing that we're trying to influence. I also want to just put out there for everybody that another big by big, I mean, ginormous misconception that people have about how to be influential is that we imagine ourselves as we study influence on this path of mastery to be able to convert skeptics. And that if we talk about selling ice to Eskimos and things like that, that you could get anyone to do anything. But really, if what you're trying

to influence is people's behavior, which is usually the case, then the best people for you to focus your efforts on are the willing. So motivating the willing and making it easy for them to take action rather than trying to convert skeptics because conversion doesn't even happen in a conversation. It happens very rarely. And when it does, it happens in a relationship. Now that makes a lot of sense. I remember a couple of years back having conversation actually on the show with tristan angel reese who's uh trans man and his job his full-time job is to go out into the world and have these conversations he'd like literally knocking on doors and that's so cool

i love that research it's really right and and he described the whole process like there is a convert an approach to conversation and where you it in a very particular way. But he would also say that, you know, like you would sort of qualify almost immediately, um, whether like this person was open, you know, are they that just pure skeptic that you're talking about? Or is this somebody where there's even potentially like a, a, a, an opportunity to open the door just the tiny bit through mutuality and shared experience and values and beliefs and stuff like that. But, you know, there were plenty of people where you would almost sort of like create a litmus test opening, you know, to qualify or pre-qualify somebody to whether like they are that person that's open to having this conversation that might in fact lead to change over time. And the research that you're talking about is people who were, I don't know if it's anti-trans, but not on the bandwagon of everyone should be whatever gender they want, shifting their opinions and also shifting their behavior and their voting behavior,

right? Based on a trans person coming to their door and having a conversation with them. And it's so interesting to me to hear you talk about what's going on, not behind the scenes, but in the process of that. And we talked about my background in acting. I also have a background in sales, which came from acting. And that's how I was able to succeed in sales. Sales is maybe the dirtiest influence discipline. So many of us don't want to have any part of it. Marketing is bad, and I'm a marketing professor and I was a marketing person. But sales is even worse. And we think of salespeople as being slimy and smarmy. We have this archetype of a used car salesman, but people who are very successful in sales, we don't even think of those people because it doesn't feel like sales,

right? It feels like a conversation. It feels like a relationship. And the amount that we can learn from the discipline of sales to apply to all domains of life, but especially leadership, is vast. And that's part of the work that I'm doing is bringing these very helpful influence concepts from sales to the broader domain of leadership and personal relationships. And can you just talk about what it means to qualify a lead? Yeah, it's interesting because in a very, very, very past life, you know, I, this is literally straight out of college. So like 30 something years ago, one of my first jobs was outside sales where I was literally, my job was to sell long distance telephone service to businesses. And I would like, I had the East end of Long Island as my territory, get in the car, I drive to an industrial park, I take the elevator to the top floor and I would literally knock on doors. And I went through a quote sales training, you know, in anticipation of doing this. And we were given scripts and all

these different things. And it was, it was a very disrespect-focused process. And there was this whole thing about qualifying sales. And it was basically the idea was to try and figure out who had the ability to say yes without any reference to whether it made sense for them to say yes. So it was always something that felt really weird and manipulative to me because it was basically like, who can write a check rather than who does it even make sense? Like whose problem can you solve? Like who can you be in relationship with? Who can you genuinely help that needs your help? And I would imagine that was also in my specific circumstance. I don't know how more generalized sales trainings happen, but the whole notion of quote, qualify a sale, because I've heard that term so many

different times in different contexts, it's always rubbed me wrong, probably because of that. Yeah. I feel the same way about the terminology of qualifying a seller, qualifying a lead. And by the way, I had plenty of smarmy experiences myself with sales training and also with practicing sales and marketing. And I've done manipulative stuff that I didn't feel good about. And I didn't learn until later that I just really didn't have to. It's just that there was expectation of these transactions where you're just trying to get something from somebody. But the idea that you would focus your time on people who might be able to say yes as the first step, and then who might be willing to say yes would be the second step, right? I think it makes a lot of sense. And this is especially when we're

talking about or thinking about persistence. This is such a simple thing that almost all of us can get better at is being more persistent and asking again after somebody says no. So the best salespeople will actually go back. And when I say best, I mean most successful. They'll go back seven times or so after getting a no. And the average salesperson will go back maybe three times and the average human being, not a salesperson, will go back zero times. And so just by going back and asking again, we can improve and expand

our influence a lot, but it's not that we should go back to everybody. So the qualification part, and I feel like we should have a different term for it, but it's, there is some kind of matching process that should happen where you're recognizing there is a potential opportunity here on both sides. And there are all kinds of situations where it's just not going to happen for whatever reason it shouldn't, or it can't, that you're not going to keep going back to somebody where there's no opportunity on either side. Like maybe they just really don't need or want the thing that you're offering, or maybe they just cannot possibly be one of the people to get the thing. They can't muster the resources. There's nothing that's wrong with that. But what is wrong is to just keep, to keep annoying them. And what's right is to get permission. And so you're building the relationship. And so you're asking, okay,

so I get it. This is, you know, clearly it's not a good time for you. Would it be okay if I checked in and you know, when would be a good time? And then you're coming back and you're saying, Hey, when we talked last month or last year, it wasn't the right time for you, but you said, I could come back and check in now. Can we have that conversation? And then they've given you permission and then they've also committed to listening with an open mind. Yeah. And I think this zooms it out also to sort of like the notion of, again, being less transactional and more relational and over time. And again, what you're telegraphing without overtly saying it is, I respect you as a human being. I respect your sense of autonomy and agency. And I respect the fact that you're

telling me it's like, hey, it's not right right now. And maybe in a year it will be, rather than saying I'm going to do everything humanly possible to turn you into that person. Even if I can do it for a moment, for a heartbeat, long enough for you to sign on the dotted line, I'm going to harness everything that I can to make that happen. And that's where I think we so often get that classic using sales language again, because this is where so much of influence is applied in sort of like a commercial context, buyer's regret, you know, whereas like you can actually manufacture an interaction or a moment or experience that will lead somebody to feel so often pressured or like really triggering that gator side where they're just the emotion is so ramped up that they're just like, what did I just do? And I think, again, that's where influence often gets this like bad name and sort of like icky feeling attached to it because it's like, oh, you just led somebody to make a decision that either wasn't in their best interest or, you know, like they wouldn't have made but for the fact that you manufactured this moment. And now not only do

they regret it, but they have a negative feeling about you as a human being. Right. I think people really don't appreciate enough or just realize enough how that experience of buyer's regret or buyer's remorse isn't just a bad thing for the person who's feeling bad. It's actually bad for whoever they did this transaction with because they are going to try to get out of it if they can. They may share their negative feelings with other people, and there's no possibility for any long-term anything good coming out of that. And yet the main factor that leads to that feeling of buyer's regret is urgency and time pressure. It's the most common tactic that's used in transactional sales. I was definitely trained to use it. And anytime you have somebody trying to

sell you something and it's the special deal for today only, right? Like you get some great discount only, or you're people interested in self-development. You've been on webinars where like when you're on the webinar, you get to have this incredibly great deal. Or if you've gone to some kind of event or workshop, they're going to give you this great deal. If you make the decision before you leave, but then after the heat of the moment has passed, then you found yourself locked into this thing that you try to get out of. And for the most part, it just isn't a good idea for anyone for you to have unhappy people locked into some kind of transactional or real relationship with you. And you just think about, say, going to as deep and personal a domain as marriage, right? Any of us who are or have been

married, we agree with the idea of a commitment and putting an effort when things get hard. But if you end up with your partner wanting to not be married to you, and the only reason that they're with you is because they made a commitment, that's a terrible situation to be in. Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like when you take it into all those different contexts and domains, you start to look at it differently. And you're like, oh, oh, right. Yeah, this is so much more obvious. sleeping. And it's the fastest charging Apple Watch, getting you 8 hours of charge in just 15 minutes. The Apple Watch Series X. Available for the first time in glossy jet black aluminum. Compared to previous generations, iPhone Xs are later required. Charge time and actual results

will vary. Mayday, mayday. We've been compromised. The pilot's a hitman. I knew you were gonna be fun. January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? you were gonna be fun january 24th tell me how to fly this thing mark walberg you know what the difference between me and you is you're gonna die don't shoot him we need him y'all need a pilot flight risk the other thing that that that comes up and that you speak about in the context of influence is the notion of charisma and there seems to be a

lot of mythology around because a lot of people would think, well, the people who are most influential are also the most charismatic and the people are most charismatic. Well, they've been that way since they were two. They walked into a room as a toddler and everyone was like, wow, look at this kid. And they walked in and then at six, everyone's like, oh, they were the one who were on the stage doing this. And in fact, what you say is that maybe there are people where they've somehow just figured out the whole, the different things that to quote, do that give them that aura. But it's less about a DNA level thing. And it's more about sort of like, it's what you do, not necessarily who you are. And it's an acquirable set of skills.

Right. That doing versus being part is really important. And many of the people that we think of as being super charismatic really weren't born that way at all. And I share in the book, this story of going to a Prince concert. I love Prince, love his music. And when I got to go to his concert, this was a dream come true. We're waiting in his little club in Las Vegas. He owns Club 2121. And they have, it's this tiny place there, I don't know, a couple hundred of us

packed in there and they have the music, playing videos and lights and it's hot. And we're waiting and waiting for a couple of hours, getting more and more and more excited. And then Prince walks on here, the first chords of his first song, and he takes the microphone and he looks straight into my eyes and his first lyrics of the first song or something like, are we alone? And I feel this just thud in my chest. And I turned to my friend Eldar, who's brought me to the concert. And I just say, oh my God, I think I'm about to faint. And then this stranger next to me on the other side, faints, dead faint, unconscious on the floor, paramedics come in and they're pulling her onto a stretcher.

And I say to the paramedics like, oh my God, has that ever happened before? And they say, it's not the first time. We've heard stories of women fainting at Beatles concerts. Some people have heard stories of women fainting when Bill Clinton was on the road, even before he became president, because his charisma was so powerful. So that was my biggest experience of somebody's charisma just literally knocking someone out. But even Prince was so uncharismatic when he was first starting out. He was so shy that when Warner Brothers hired him and signed him to their label, they refused to send him on tour at all. They had seen him perform and he would turn his back

to the audience. And then anytime he had to speak to them, he would speak in a whisper and nobody could even hear him. So he had a number one hit on the billboard list. It was, I want to be your lover. I think this was 1979. And Rick James was on doing his super freak tour. And he was like, okay, Prince, do you want to come as my opening act? People like your music. It's okay that you suck as a performer. And Rick James says, Prince was kind of hated. Like people liked the music, but he's wearing lacy underwear and he's getting booed, you know, women's underwear. But what Prince does on that tour is he's studying and imitating Rick James. And he sees how Rick James focuses his attention on the audience and does call and response. And Rick James knows how to connect. And Prince starts doing that. And at first he's going through the motions and then he's really connecting. Like when you train as an actor, you go through the motions and then you

figure out how to really connect. And Rick James, by the end, according to Rick James, is jealous of Prince. So the question is, what did he learn? Rather than just like, oh, move this way or move that way or do this or say this, what are what are the deeper rules? Like, what are the sort of like the signposts? Like, if you want to be charismatic, you know, and it's a set of skills, what really matters? I'll share three things briefly. For anyone who ends up reading the book, there's a whole chapter about it with some more specifics. The number one thing is what you and I've already talked about, Jonathan, which is putting your attention out on the other person, or in this case, it's on the audience if we're talking about being on stage. And when you're

in a conversation, you do that by things like asking questions. You can also do that by using their name. And when you use the other person's name, that's not just a way of getting their attention, which has a unique neurological signature and signal that even wakes them up from sleep, right? Or gets their attention in a crowded room. But you're also reminding yourself that this is about them. It's not about you. The second thing when we're talking about public speaking or performing on a stage is pausing because there's a time warp between the speaker and the audience where weirdly the time just passes faster on a stage than it passes for the audience. And the audience needs pauses to bring their attention back to you and to catch up with you. So that's when you get their attention back. And then the third thing is really advanced in that almost no speakers and performers know how to do it, but it's what Prince was doing

that this woman faint and be ready to faint. And I call it shining after a book where I learned about the name of it and how to teach it, a book by a guy named Joey Asher and shining is connecting. I'll just say it's on a spiritual level with someone in the audience, or even in the audience, you can do that with a speaker. It's harder to do in small groups, like an office meeting say, or a one-on-one conversation, it's easier to do in not a village-size meeting, but like, say you have a room of at least 20 people. You focus your attention on one person at a time and you make eye contact with them and you're really opening your heart and you are shining your energy on them in a generous, sweet way. And when I do this, I'm actually loving that person. And it's in a way that you can receive that connection back. And it's hard to be telling about, it's actually easy to do a

demonstration. And I write in the book about how to do a demonstration. But the magical thing is that when they feel that connection, other people in the room feel that connection too. And even someone on the other side of the room can feel the connection. So I have no idea if Prince was looking into my eyes. I felt that he was looking into my eyes. He might not even have been looking into the eyes of my neighbor who fainted. But we get to connect with multiple people by connecting with them one at a time and this moment. But in fact, the effect is the exact opposite. They all feel like it's this inclusive experience. Like you're drawing everybody into this one moment with one person and it's like you're all in it together. It's so powerful. So it's like focus, pause, shine. And it's interesting that there's one of the things that I've sort of learned about having conversations with people on the podcast in all sorts of different contexts is this notion

of what I've called over the years, exquisite attention. It's actually something that was said to me in an interview years ago. And the moment it was uttered by my guest, I was just like, wait, what? That so describes this level of devotional attention that you would give almost like as a gift to another human being for a moment of time. It's experienced as almost transcendent and deeply connecting. And it's really powerful. And I love what you're saying about the notion of doing it, not because you're trying to sort of like, let me build my, you know, charisma in the eyes of all these different people so I can get X, Y, and Z at the end of the day. But I do believe, and I feel like when you can do that from a place of genuine generosity, it's palpable, it's felt, there's, you felt. There's something that goes on. Sharon Salzberg

once described to me how she literally walks down the street and as strangers pass her by, she's offering phrases from a loving kindness meditation. Like, may you be well, may you be happy, may you be healthy, may you live with ease. Complete random strangers as they walk down the street looking at them and just thinking this to herself about them. And imagine if you could take that same just, you know, energy of generosity without expectation and plant it into these moments. Even if you don't get the response that you immediately want from somebody else, how much better would you feel as a human being when you're just leading through life that way, right? I love that. I love it.

And when I'm teaching people the path of mastering influence, what our goal is, is that the other person will want to say yes. It's not that they have to say yes or that they can say yes, but that they want to say yes, it's not that they have to say yes or that they can say yes, but that they want to say yes. And what that means is that they are feeling a connection, a human connection with us. And it's really amazing to me how much of that is created by how much we can like the other person. And maybe if you did only one thing in your life to be more influential, it would be to choose to like each person that you meet with or that you encounter and to do whatever it takes to like them. Which may not be the easiest thing in the world, given sort of like the

person or the context. Yeah. And when I say to like them, it's not that you have to want to be friends with that person, but that you try to find something to appreciate about that person if you want to have any kind of interaction with them. There are people that you don't want to interact with or people you shouldn't. Absolutely, you have to draw boundaries. But even people, like I have a couple of difficult people that I work with at Yale and they're very powerful. And I need to have those relationships work.

And the way that I do that is I find things to admire and legitimately, truly, sincerely appreciate about those people. And maybe at some points when it's relevant, like they do something very cool and I will tell them I'll appreciate it. I'll give them a compliment. But it's also just in my interactions with them where I focus, I remind myself about some superpower or ability they have or contribution

they're making. And when I'm talking about them with other people, I try not to bad mouth people generally, but I will remind other people because these are difficult individuals. I'll remind other people about what it is that they bring and the blessings that they have to share with us. Yeah, I love that. You may not like people sort of like in the traditional sense of the word, but I think it is possible to see the humanity in others, even in that context. And I think that's often the work. I want to touch on one other thing before we wrap, because it's something that you identify as the magic question. And it is something that I have been asking for literally my the magic question. And it is something that I have been

asking for literally my entire adult life. And it is as magical as you say it is. I have seen so much transformation, so much possibility, so much opportunity by asking this one simple phrase in nearly every context in my life. And then I see you share this and I'm like, oh, it's not just me. There's something bigger going on here. All right. So share what the phrase is or what the question is and what's happening when we offer it. I'm so excited that you have also found success with what I call the magic question. The magic question is just what would it take? And to illustrate how magic the magic question can be, I'll share a story that Gloria Steinem told when she came to New Haven, my hometown, a few years

ago. She was focused on the problem of sex trafficking and she'd become an expert. She was speaking and writing about it. She'd attended a conference on it in Zambia. And after the conference, she goes to this village in a rural part of the country, near a game preserve, middle of nowhere, where three young women had been sex trafficked and lost the previous year. Nobody heard from them again. And she sits down on a tarp in the middle of a barren field with a group of women in a circle, and she asks them, what would it take to prevent that from ever happening again so that no young women from this village or anyone would be sex trafficked? And they told her an electric fence. An electric fence? They said when the corn reaches a certain height,

the elephants come and they eat it and they trample it and we have nothing to eat and we have nothing to sell at the market. We have no money to send our kids to school. So these young women and their families are just desperate. Boris Annam says, okay, if I raise the money, will you build the fence? They say yes. So she does and they do. And the way she tells it, she comes back a few years later, there's a bumper crop of corn and no one from that village has been sex trafficked since they got the fence. The magic question, first of all, is respectful. So you're acknowledging the other party is the expert on their situation and their obstacles.

They know all kinds of things that you don't know, which is why often it unearths a surprising answer like the electric fence, because Gloria Steinem had no way of knowing that it's not just a sex trafficking problem or even a poverty problem. For this village, it's a human wildlife conflict problem. And because of all of this, you often get an outcome that's much easier or simpler than you would have expected, something less than you might have been willing to do. Sometimes there's nothing even that you have to do at all. There's also this shift that happens from that perspective that we talked about earlier of resistance, where inner two-year-old says, you don't tell me what to do. You can circumvent that by just asking, what would it take? So you're not telling anybody what to do. You're asking, what would it take? And they go into this

just collaborative problem-solving mode. The final piece that's not obvious to people who haven't used this question before is that when you ask, what would it take if they do, in fact, lay out a roadmap, which happens most of the time, and it's a conversation, it's not a magic wand, but when they tell you what it would take, they've implicitly committed to supporting that outcome. So let's say you ask the magic question to your boss, like Jonathan, you said, you can use it in any situation. As long as you have rapport, you can ask it anytime. So when you say to your boss, what would it take for me to get to the next level? Or what would it take for me to be at the top of the salary band for this role? Your boss wants you to succeed and thrive and be happy. And so your boss will absolutely tell you what it will take. And then when you come back and you say, okay, so what you said it would take for me to get to the next level is this. Here's how those things have happened. Now, can you help me get this promotion? Your boss has actually already committed to helping you get that

promotion when those things have happened. I'm not saying they'll be able to. And if you have a bad boss, they may change their mind and go back on it. But in almost all situations, your boss will do what they can to make that happen for you. Yeah. I mean, I love that. And the other observation that I've experienced with that is like when you ask that question and then somebody tells you, you know, let's say I'm building a company and I have this awesome human being and I would really love them to join my team. Right. But they're super committed. Everyone on the planet wants them to work with them. And I'm massively underfunded. And I'm like, we're so young and we don't have the, all the yada yada, which is like in my mind that will never say yes. Right. But I still have the conversation. And for some reason I have a friend of a friend and they set up a cup of coffee and we go out and, and you know, like all logical rat and you know, all the sort of like the, the fact-based argument is like, like, there's just no way that I'm going to be able to like appeal to this person. But then like, I'll plan the question. I'll be like, well, look, what would it actually take for you to say yes to coming on board with us, for example? And then like, instead of them just sort of like immediately saying, well, like you don't have that, you know, the money, the resources, the team, the power, the track record, like what they're immediately, they're in that mode of, huh, what would it take? And they're starting to like, think about all the elements. And then they're literally telling me what I may

need to sort of like invest in for the next five years, because five years from then, I actually want to make this happen. But they're laying out the path for me to understand how do I move like my decision-making process into, you know, like a set of decisions and behaviors and actions and allocations that will make it possible, that will put us both on a possibility pathway rather than, you know, this transactional no sense of possibility. And they're literally telling me what I need to do to make it happen, even if it's not going to happen right away. And as somebody who's a maker and a perpetual founder and creator, that is super valuable to me, even if in the moment I might be a little bit let down

because I realized it's not going to happen for quite some time. Yeah. And it sounds like they're actually wanting to be able to say yes. Yeah. Right. And what you said is important too, that it's not that you're just writing a cold email to say like, hey, Mr. Slash, Ms. Slash, doctor, important person, super successful and busy. What would it take for you to join my team? You're having coffee with them. And you're in a conversation where you have some rapport. They like you. They would like to be able to say yes to you. It doesn't make sense for them to say yes right now. But that's the context where you ask the magic question. That's so cool. Can I ask you, you do so much asking and you are so successful at it in all these domains and magic question.

I love hearing how that works for you. Is there any other piece of advice that you can give us from your experience about asking? You know, it goes back to what you were talking about around charisma and it goes back to the notion of exquisite attention and it is to be exquisitely present in whatever conversation you're in and enter it from a place of generosity with an expectation of possibility. You know, it may not work out the way that you hoped or you thought or you planned, but you know, if I go in never, never sort of like, I'm always looking to, to be more generous. You know, We can go back to the earlier conversation, like Adam's, his sort of template of givers, takers, and matchers.

I'd rather be on the side of giving because it feels better to me. And part of that is being generous with my attention. I feel like in the world that we're living in right now, the single biggest gift you can give somebody is your undivided attention. Because it is so rare right now, because we are all so dopamine attached to our devices and to distraction, to fragmentation, that when you do that thing where you simply just sit with somebody for a short amount of time and make it really, really, really clear that nothing else exists but that moment and them, it's powerful. And it creates just a profoundly different experience for everybody

who's involved. And I also feel like in the context of like a podcast or something like that, those, you know, like tens of thousands, millions of people who will then listen to that conversation at a later date, they feel that gets passed on in an intangible way that people sense and feel that makes the experience different for everybody and gives you the ability to lift up more than just the two people who are in the conversation. I absolutely agree with you about your ability to do this exceptionally well. And I know you weren't bragging or saying that directly. And by the way, I don't always do. It's so palpable and viscerally experiencing this right now and remembering the last time that we talked and I felt it so strongly then too, but even now being not in the same room with you,

that your ability to be present and to focus your attention and your exquisitely and your listening on me is just demonstrating what we were talking about with charisma. And even I'm hearing your voice is quieter than a lot of other people who've been interviewing me lately. And I feel that and perceive it as you being more present with me than a lot of other people are. And then my reaction is to be even more present with you in this conversation than I usually am. And I'm always trying, right? I'm always trying,

but because you drop into this really almost like a meditative or meditation teachery kind of quiet place of deep listening, I get to go there too. So thank you. I hope it comes across to listeners. And I think that it does because of what we were talking about, about charisma and vicarious connection. I appreciate that. And it also And it kind of puts an end cap on another kind of point around charisma, which is that you don't have to be the loud one in the room, which is, I think, counterintuitive for a lot of people. But anyway, I appreciate that.

Thank you for that noticing. And as always, it feels like a good place for us to come full circle. I have asked you this question once before, but time has passed and certainly the world has seen a lot of change since then. So sitting here in this now virtual container of Good Life Project, if I offer up the phrase to live a good life, what comes up? What comes up for, oh my gosh, I actually just started tearing up.

That was a surprise. Well, I just want to leave the world a little better than it was when I found it. Wow. Thank you. Thank you. Hey, before you leave, if you love this episode, say that you will also love the conversation we had with Charles Duhigg about building habits that help you. You'll find a link to Charles's episode in the show notes. Good Life Project is a part of the ACAST Creator Network. And of course, if you haven't already done so, please go ahead and follow

Good Life Project in your favorite listening app. And if you found this conversation interesting or inspiring or valuable, and chances are you did since you're still listening here, would you do me a personal favor, a seven second favor and share it maybe on social or by text or by email, even just with one person, just copy the link from the app you're using and tell those you know, those you love, those you want to help navigate this thing called life a little better so we can all do it better together with more ease and more joy. Tell them to listen. Then even invite them to talk about what you've both discovered.

Because when podcasts become conversations and conversations become action, that's how we all come alive together. Until next time, I'm Jonathan Fields, signing off for Good Life Project. I knew you were going to be fun. On January 24th. Tell me how to fly this thing. Mark Wahlberg. You know what the difference between me and you is? You're going to die. Don't shoot him. We need him. Y'all need a pilot. Flight risk. The Apple Watch Series 10 is here.

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