Green Light with Chris Long - 2020 NFL Draft & Senior Bowl with Jim Nagy

Episode Date: March 20, 2020

2:30 - Jim and Chris on NFL Draft. 23:38 - 2020 NFL Draft Offensive Line Projections. 29:00 - 2020 NFL Draft Quarterback Projections. 35:40 - Jim on Senior Bowl. 56:55 - Jim on Chris in College. About Chalk Media: Following the unfiltered voice and vision of Chris Long, Chalk Media is the interactive online community for you, the intelligent and humorous sports fan. Driven by access, Chalk delivers a unique perspective that cuts through the canned talking points and provides a variety of content from your favorite sports and entertainment celebrities. Here at Chalk, we don’t take ourselves too seriously, but we are rooted in challenging the perception of professional athletes. We embrace the “real” with a unique combination of humor and intelligence. Chalk is a community with a voice beyond 240 characters that brings a perspective and vibe to a traditionally brash and boastful sports media space. Subscribe and enjoy weekly content including podcasts, documentaries, live chats, celebrity interviews and more. Nothing is off-limits at Chalk - hot news items, trending discussions from the NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, NCAA are just a small part of what we will be sharing with you. 🌍🏀🏈SUBSCRIBE NOW ⚾🏒⛰️ http://bit.ly/chalknetwork Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Really excited to be joined by Jim Nagy. He is the executive director of the Reese's Senior Bowl. He's been added a couple years now. I want to ask him about the ways he's tried to transform the Senior Bowl for the better, asking him about how the virus has disrupted everything with the draft process right now, how he sees that changing this year. And then also his rich history in scouting, 18 years in the NFL under Bill Belichick.

You know, Pete Carroll, among others, obviously spent some time in Green Bay as well. So a guy with a ton of experience and doing a great job in Mobile. Welcome to the Greenlight Pod right now is somebody I'm really excited about joining us. Somebody I follow on Twitter, he's a great follow. He's also the executive director of the Reese's Senior Bowl or Reese's, depending on how you say that. Jim Nagy. Jim, how do you say Reese's? Do you say Reese's or Reese's?

or Reese's? It's racist. It's racist because it's not the way it was explained to me from the people that Hershey was it's not Reese's pieces. It's racist pieces. Oh, well, that's,

that's how I remember it. And that's an organic way to start the interview because I had not crossed that bridge yet. So, and I've been, I love the candy, by the way. But Jim is certainly not just i mean people might know him as being the executive director down in mobile of a game that's been going on over 70 years now but uh jim did his time 18 years jim you did in the NFL uh scouting

six super bowl appearances four times a champion uh you scout it with the packers the the the pats the the the seahawks and now you're down in mobile uh so i i want to cut right to it and we can get into the bigger picture stuff, but, you know, right now is a unique time. It's kind of unprecedented as it relates to the draft and the process for these athletes who you know very well. What do you think is the biggest impediment for kids right now? I mean, there's a ton of them, but is it just the, is it the pro days? Yeah, Chris, that's a great question. And it is. It's all the guys that haven't had a pro day yet, and especially the small school guys.

So talking to my buddies around the league, I mean, they've got almost half the board. They don't have workout numbers on right now, which is a big deal, you know, the Hayes in the barn. And again, I think that smart teams, you know, will always go back to the tape from the fall and focus on what a guy does and paths on a football field.

But when you're making these million-dollar decisions, you know, all these teams want to have as much information as possible. So, you know, having all this workout data that's not, you know, in the system, it's difficult for these guys. You know, they're used to having all that at their disposal. They don't have it this year. They're trying to work around ways to get it right now. But especially the small school guys, Chris, you know, it's one thing when you're coming from a Power 5 or even if you were a small school guy that came to the senior bowl or got a combine invite, you know, you basically laid everything out. Well, there's a lot of small school guys that really need pro day.

because their tape is, you know, their tape's good enough to get them on a radar. But because of the level of competition, the NFL is always going to want to see how they stack up, you know, in terms of physical traits with the rest of the league. And so that's why when you get guys popping a 40-inch vertical jump or running 4-3 on a pro day, that's when they go from being a priority free agent to maybe a team taking a stab in the sixth or seventh round. So, yeah, those are definitely the guys. Those guys are being most impacted. position group that gets impacted the most by the absence of a pro day from your experience?

You know, I would, I would say corner and wide out because those are two really speed-based positions where, you know, you're going to get rawness, you know, at a smaller school level, you're going to get more of a raw prospect. So you're really looking to hit on the upside of the trade. And again, I think wide out and corner would probably be the two just because of the speed element. Would you say that's the biggest drop-off from like your top-tier schools to your smaller schools would be those skill guys? No, I would say, I'd say there, Chris, it's the offensive line.

Really? Yeah, because offensive lines hard enough to find. I mean, you know some of the teams you played on. I mean, it's hard for NFL teams to find quality offensive linemen. So as that trickles down from, you know, Power 5 to group of 5 to FCS to Division 2, I mean, it really gets thinned out. So, yeah, I would say the further you go down the chain, the offensive line play is where you notice the biggest discrepancy.

Well, I know you got a lot of buddies in the league, so I don't want to put you on the spot here, but I'll do it anyways. You say the cream will rise to the top, essentially, as far as the scouting departments and that sort of thing go. And I think it makes sense. You might also learn a bit about what you actually need and don't need in your first year with the absence of all these numbers. I don't know.

But who's a scouting department that you're like, yeah, they'll get it right? You know, Chris, that's a good question. There's a lot of them, man. And I'm not just saying that. You know, for the most part, all these teams are well-stocked. So, I mean, I'm real biased with coming from the Seahawks and working under John Schneider and that group. I mean, I think they do an awesome job.

Green Bay has done a great job forever. Brian Gutakins is a guy, their GM, that he and I came up in the system. I've got a lot of respect for Chris Ballard and the work he's doing in Indianapolis. Oh, he's doing a terrific job. Yeah. So, I mean, you can, you can really go down the line. You know, the chiefs have done a really nice job with Andy Reed, putting pieces around Coach Reed's crew. So I think Jeff Ireland and what they've done in New Orleans the last couple of years in their draft. Yeah. Yeah, that's just the hands. But man, there are so many good guys doing what they do. And again, I really do think that this is an opportunity for those teams that really crank it out and, you know, put the time in the fall are going to reap the benefits.

But I will say this, Chris, where you're seeing a little, where you're going to see the biggest change with these small school guys is this is a huge time of the year where recruiting actually plays a role. Right. You know, when you're in shouting and you're on an airplane, you're on a random Delta flight across the country and you pull out your laptop and you're watching tape. you know, someone inevitably asked you, are you a recruiter? And, you know, you always, you know, sometimes you'll make the differentiation. No, I'm actually a scout, you know, basically just an evaluator. I don't, we don't recruit. But this is a huge time of the year for scouts to be out on the road and really focused on those late round priority free agent guys that, you know, you really think of a chance of making your football team.

And if you were the scout, if you as a scout were making the picks, you might draft them. your GM might not. But you're really recruiting these guys, man. You're going to pro day. You're going in a day early to take them to lunch or you're staying after, you know, the pro day and taking them out to eat and really, really recruiting them up. So when that chaos happens after the draft,

and I don't know if you, if you followed like what happens after the last pick of the draft. Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I was going to ask you, because like you bring that up,

you talk about those guys after the draft. They have a little bit more autonomy, right? a lot more autonomy. Do you always feel bad for like the Mr. Relevant guy because he was so close to having a choice in where he ends up? Yeah, he's so close to determining his own state. I kind of do. And that's, and I do say that to a lot of players

because you never want to string them along through the process. Like I never really recruited guys hard if I didn't think they could, that I would draft them or they could get drafted or they could make a 53. I think players have way too much, you know, blowing up their tails, you know, through this process by anyone. You know, I'm not going to point the finger, but family members that, you know, agents sometimes, you know, I always try to shoot those guys straight. And I would tell them, sometimes it's almost better to go on drafted. I know that, you know, it's a little hit to your ego.

Every kid grows up wanting to be an NFL draft pick, but it is almost better to slide all the way through so you can kind of, you know, check out all those depth charts and see where you have your best place to make it 53. Because I think that that's an interesting point. And it's something I've always observed. I mean, it's definitely an ego hit not to be drafted, but would you rather be the undrafted guy who hits on that big first second contract? Because the conditions were correct for you to be successful. Is there one position that you look at besides quarterback?

We'll take quarterback out of it because I feel like the context with which you suit up, the coaching staff, the scheme, the team around you is going to dominate, you know, the likelihood of you excelling. Are there position groups that you're like, you know, that need a little bit more of the perfect situation? Are there some position groups that should be, you know, no matter what dysfunctional organization you end up in because there are a lot of them, you'll excel. Does it matter position to position? Oh, that's a great question. I think running backs can, you know, good running backs run it.

You know, they can see it and they can hit it. And good running backs usually, you know, the cream rises at the top there. I think if you've got a knack for getting after the quarterback, you know, whether you're a three, four outside lineback or a defensive end or an inside guy, if you know how to rush, I think that can translate. And like to what you were talking about is undrafted guys, I think your best chance of the hitting are at wide receiver. Yeah.

because a lot of guys that get drafted as receivers are all used to being the guy in college. They were, you know, most of them were the number one guy. They were the primary target. They didn't have to play a lot of special teams. So when they get to the NFL, that, again, we're talking to ego. Yeah, that's a big deal. Yeah, when you go from being the go-to guy having to run down as a, you know, L5 on kickoff or a gunner, you know, a lot of guys don't want to do that. And that's why when you get those undrafted guys that are really hungry and they don't, you know, they don't care.

They just want to make a team. That's how you make the team, right? And that's how you dress on Sundays. And then that buys those guys time to develop as a wideout. So that's like that's their track, whereas you see a lot of good receivers coming to the league that should be, you know, have upside. It's to be third and fourth receivers

and be good long-term pros that just flame out pretty quickly because they never embrace that special team. Yeah, you can't think like a number one. You might have been a number one at, I don't know, I'm just going to like, just cop and state have a team? No, no, he don't. Okay.

You can't be a number one at Coppin State, which you literally can't be a number one at Coppin State, but you can be in a, you can't be a small school number one and then coming to the league, you know, expecting to just catch fade routes, it's much different. You have to be hungry. You have to tackle. You have to block because to your point, you're going to be thrown into the fire. What about free agency? You spent 18 years doing this.

I assume, you know, most of it. was dealing with college players, yeah? Yeah, I was on the college side all 18 years. We, you know, we tried to do some crossover stuff with pro throughout the year and, you know, during cut down days in August and things like that, but was never full-time pro. So you, but talking to your buddies that are in it right now dealing with free agency, I mean, it's got to be a little bit different. I mean, first off, there was the entire, hey, do we push free agency back?

Do we not? The optics. where did you stand on that whole thing and then also you know once free agency kicks off here tomorrow you know Wednesday uh what changes because I think some people are like yeah you can get it all done on FaceTime on the phone like how do you do medical evaluations how do you get players in for visits I mean there's there's a ton of unknowns with with coronavirus that I think this is going to be just as unique as the draft process maybe even more so Yeah, and even up until a couple days ago, Chris, talking to friends around the league,

there was a, you know, the prevailing feeling was that this thing was going to get pushed back. You know, the guys all thought they were going to have a little more time. And like you mentioned, because of, you know, because of the optics of it all. But I'm actually glad that they pushed the edges personally because it, you know, I think, you know, as much as you hate to say, and I'm not trying to draw parallels to 9-11 whatsoever, you know, but we do need a diversion from this. you know, I think, you know, it's not the same thing, but I'm just going back to 9-11. That's the last time we felt this insecure. I mean, that's just like, it's just calling it what it is.

I think, you know, as Americans, we're very lucky. We don't have to deal with a lot of situations where you don't feel secure. And I was sitting down talking to my parents at dinner last night. It was like, the last time it felt this eerie was, you know, at that moment. And I remember I was playing high school football. We took a week off and then we got back to it. And it was a distraction, a diversion. always like, you know, generally people want, you know, they, they always refer to football and sports as their great distraction in the midst of politics and all that stuff, which I always like to push back on. I think they can exist together. We don't need to go down that road. But now, you know, to say that, hey, seeing free agency contracts being signed coming across the ticker

and the bottom is just too much in this situation, football is still a distraction. I mean, this is I think for every person that's going to be put off by, you're going to have three people that are going to be excited to see something that doesn't have to do with a pandemic. Right, right. I'm with you there. Totally with you there. But, but, yeah, so the league, there are, there are some obstacles. I think that what you're seeing right now with some of these, this early, you know, the non-tampering period, whatever they call it, you know, a lot of these deals are being announced. And they're mostly for the, you know, the bigger name guys.

So the league anticipated that happen. And where it's going to affect guys, similarly to the draft where, you know, this whole draft process is going to affect more of those non-combines, smaller school guys. This is going to affect more of that, you know, that down the line, you know, tier two, tier three, free agent, two teams are going to want a medical on and they don't know as much about. They don't have maybe as long a track record in the league because, you know, a lot of what pro scouts do, you know, college scouts are on the road all falls. gathering information at schools from their sources that, you know, on college staff. Well, the pro scouts are just calling their buddies around the league. It's such a tight network of your friends.

I mean, you know, when you were when you were leaving teams, I mean, other pro departments were just calling around to check up on you and, you know, what kind of teammate you were and your work ethic. And so that's all going on right now, too. But outside of that, you know, you still want to get in front of people. This is still a people business. It's still, you know, you still want to have those, you know, that one-on-one contact before you enter into something long term.

So, yeah, I mean, I think you're going to have this whole run right now where a lot of the big guys are getting signed up. And then there might be a really big lull until teams can actually get with some of these players. And it's going to be interesting to see how that time's up with the draft. I know if you kind of try to fill needs in free agency, and then, you know, you try to approach the draft taking the best players available. That's the goal. You know, when need and best player marry up, that's perfect scenario.

But if teams are able to fill less holes in free agency, you might see more teams really kind of reaching at certain positions because of need this year. Right. Yeah, it's a total crapshoot. Before we get to the Senior Bowl specifically this year, what have you heard about the combine? Because that was a big difference in the time slotting. Were the reviews good from your peers or were they not so great?

I know players were kind of, it was a mixed bag to say the least. Yeah, from a player's perspective, just talking to some agents, you know, they weren't very happy about it. No, they weren't. Especially the third group of, hey, Chris. I mean, those guys are out there doing short shuttles and three cones at 11 o'clock at night. Yeah, come on, man. That's not optimum for anybody, you know. And as much as work as these kids put into this process to be out there that late at night,

I didn't think that was very cool. From the league standpoint, there was only really one day that got to people in the league. And it was the day where it was the last day of weigh-ins. So weigh-in started at 7 a.m. And then, you know, the team reps left way-ins. They went up and they started interviewing players. And that coincided with the first day of workouts. So, you know, the league personnel, they weren't, the team guys, were there from 7 a.m.

until after 11 o'clock at night at the same. stadium, which, uh, which, which, which, which chaps and guys. That's a normal work day for those guys. Those guys are sadistic. They are, but at least they get a workout in in the middle of the day. Yeah, they do. They do. They do. They couldn't do. They couldn't do that. So that was really it. I thought there would be a little more negativity from the, from the team standpoint. I think they were, they were, they were, uh, it came off a little better than I, than I thought it was from that perspective. So getting into the game this year, uh, you know, biggest risers, and fallers among linemen.

Let's just talk trenches. I know for a fact, actually, let's start with this, because I saw you tweet about it the other day. You really like the Kinlaw kid. I really like the Kinlaw kid. I actually think he might have a little bit more upside than Brown. I don't know what you can say or what you can't say about that. But I really like him.

How high do you see him going? You said he's probably gone by 13? Yeah, I really like Yvonne Kinlaw. I'm with you. Derek Brown to me, and I've said this through the fall. Derek Brown right now is a more ready player. He's more polished player right now. But in three or four years, I think Javon Kinlaw has the higher ceiling.

I think they're both Pro Bowl level players. What Derek Brown did in the SEC this year in that conference and being as disruptive as he was, gaming and game out, was really impressive. You know, like I haven't seen a big man disrupt like that probably since Sue. Yeah. And Domiton Sue. And to me, the difference was. was like Derek played hard all the time every game.

You don't have to, you know, you get in draft meetings and your GM's going to say, okay, you know, Jim, what takes do we want to watch on this guy? And you usually got to have your ducks in a row on, okay, this was his best game and this was another good game. But with Derek Brown this year, Chris, it was like just throw on a tape. He was the same guy all the time. He played his butt off and he's a great player. But Ken Law, he's just scratching the surface, man. Like he, you know, he had a child in the off season.

That can usually, that could, a guy can go one or two ways. They can throw him for a loop and they can really, you know, get thrown off kilter by it. Or it can hone them in and focus them. Right. And that's what it did with Javon. You know, he lost 25 pounds in the off season. He's just so big. When you get up on this dude, he's such a big human being.

He's so long. He's so long. He's so explosive. And it's hard for long guys to be that explosive. And he is. And he had two days down in Mobile. He had some quad-tined tendonitis flare up on him after the second practice. But, man, he was, he showed what he needed to show.

Well, when I- Again, so, and you know that's better than anyone. Everyone gets enamored with, with the edge rushers because it looks pretty coming off the edge. But the harder guys to find and the more valuable guy from a league's perspective is that interior guy that can rush the passer and, you know, just get guys off the spot and just really create havoc in the pocket. and that's what Javon is. So, you know, I can't imagine he laughs outside the top 10.

Yeah, and I remember initially he was kind of thought of as more further down the board. I think people are waking up on that. You know, as comps go, because everybody loves the comp thing, do you hate the comp thing or do you like the comp thing? Is it a necessary evil? I hate it. Okay. Okay.

Well, do something you hate here for me and give me a cop for Kinloaf. Because he's twitchy like it like tall twitchy guys to your point. There's not a lot. I never want to do like, hey, listen, I've read Chris Jones. I think, you know, you could, from a body type, I mean, being a higher, you know, a higher hip guy, it seems like a guy who, who also, though, can can kind of flash off the tape in his first step. I mean, I play with Fletcher Cox, you know, and then with Derek Brown, I've heard, okay, I heard Sue, which you brought up Sue. I've heard Chris Jenkins.

I don't know. Take a stab at doing something you hate here for me. The reason I hate it, Chris, it's a media thing, and I get why it's a media thing because it helps people, you know, kind of visualize. In the league, you're not going to make that comp unless everything lines up, right? Like body type, testing numbers, play style. It all has to jive. Yeah.

So that's why I hate it. Well, I hate it because I've been, I was comp to every white defensive end coming out of college for a solid decade there. So, but you like the Chris Jones comp, okay? Yeah, you're Kyle Vandenbach, right? I was Kyle Vandenbosch. I was Aaron Campman. And to be honest, we all kind of had similar careers productivity. So I don't know why they, it looks like the Bosa kids are going to have about 100 sacks, though.

So they've shed that label of being, uh, Any of us older ideas. But yeah, you like Chris Jones a little bit? Yeah, yeah, they're similar, you know, because they're long. They got heavy hands. And they're explosive. Fletcher Cox is another one. It's just, it's hard to find those, you know, that six, five body type plus that's

really explosive. I mean, when I was my time in New England, we had Richard Seymour, you know, and he's a Hall of Fame player. So, but those don't come around very often. Usually those body types are more first and second down players. And that's why Kinla is different because Ken law, what he's going to be able to do when he really learns out of rush, what he's going to be able to do in third down is going to be awesome. So the offensive line, that could go in any direction. I've seen people projecting the Georgia kid go first, the Bechding kid go first, people like the Alabama kid.

obviously the Iowa kid looked like a dancing bear at the combine, but it's just the combine, right? How do you see that falling in the first round? Because there's kind of four names there. Yeah, you know, I've had to circle the wagons on all those guys after the Senior Bowl because I don't pay a lot of attention of those guys through the fall just because we have so many seniors to look at. But because there's stuff I'm doing now with ESPN, I've had to do that since our game.

And they're all different. They probably are the top four. I think Josh Jones from Houston is the one senior that could maybe get up into that group, you know, in that first-ron range. But they're all different. So Beckton's got the most upside. If I were picking, I would take Beckton from Louisville if he was on the board. Yes, because I'm telling you, I'm sitting there watching it.

I'm like, you know, I've thought about going back and playing before. And I'm like, some days you're just, you're a little sore. Your back's a little tight. And my back was a little tight watching the guy. combine and I'm watching this kid run around. And I'm like, there's no fucking way. I want to set the edge on this kid. And I know every defensive end is watching where this kid goes to be like,

not my division, please, not my division. No, and dude, he's a bully too. You know, like the third, the first game, you know, sometimes in scouting, you know, it's depending on like the series of the sequence of the tape you put in. And the first tape I put on was Clemson. And about the third play of the game, he just swaths the, you know, swats the guy to the guy to the game. ground and, you know, just takes the shot at him. I mean, he's, he's got that bully mentality.

He's just a huge dancing bear. Like, like you said about Worf's, he's just a massive human being at 350 plus pounds running what he ran, 5-1. But he's got the mean streak. He's got the attitude. You know, he's a little technique-wise. He definitely needs to be cleaned up and tightened up a little bit. But the upside is huge. Tristan works from Iowa, all the testing stuff. 36 vertical 10-1 broad, all-time tester at the offensive line position, 4-840. So he's got all those tools where he's a little different. I think people want to pigeonhole him as the typical Iowa NFL ready-made, Kirk Farrant's groomed offensive linemen.

And to me, he's not that. I think he's a little ways off. So, you know, Jesse, he doesn't fit blocks real well. He doesn't sustain real well consistently. But he's got all the stuff. He's got all the stuff to play left tackle. and those guys go. So there's him.

You know, Andrew Thomas is a guy that is really good in the run game, you know, not quite there in past pro yet. Where are you stay in the boat with Andrew Thomas? Again, he's another big, long-bodied guy. He's a big man. All these guys are big men. But the people at Georgia that I know really well, they love this kid. So, you know, offensive line, as you know, it's such an intangible position.

You know, you can sacrifice athlete on the offensive. line probably more than any position if the guy's tough and competitive and, you know, gets after you and smart, you know, and versatile, all that stuff. And that's what Andrew Thomas is. So they love the guy. It keeps seeing the boat with him. You don't turn on the tape and see a top 10 left tackle. Like, you know, you don't see one of the, you don't feed to Briconshaw Ferguson, you know, a guy you played with. But, yeah, it's a good one there. But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but the more you hear about the makeup of Andrew Thomas, you, you, you, you feel really good about it. Um, who was the fourth one? The kid from Bama. The kid from

The kid from Bama who I wills. I got to be honest, I saw him in the combine. And when you watch a Bama game in the fall, if you're not thinking from a scouting perspective, you're enamored with the team. And I'm not looking at, you know, the guy at D.N who's kind of, who had a really good start at Bama, kind of fell off a little bit the past couple years of coming out this year.

He's jumped off the tape to me. But when it comes to offensive linemen, I've kind of conditioned myself to think, okay, Bama offensive lineman proceed with caution. But this kid, I saw him at the Combine, and everybody loved him. I was a little bit concerned to how top-heavy he looks. He's cut kind of thin below the waist. What do you think about him?

That's so funny. You made that comment. That's one of our scouts at the Senior Bowl was working for one of the teams during the Combine Week, and he was at Way-ins, and I wasn't at Way-ins that day. And, you know, we didn't see Jedrick, we didn't see Will, you know, during the season because he wasn't a senior bowl guy. And that was his first comment was that he thought he had thin legs. Yeah.

You guys saw it the same. But in terms of like being ready to play and being technically sound and just kind of having a nice feel and patience and kind of play, he kind of plays more like a vet than the other three guys. You watch him, it seems like he's played a lot of football. He's one of those guys. Of the four, if you got to line up this year with a guy, I think that Will, you'll, you'll, you'll probably. probably get your best football out of will. He's like your Patriots pick. You know, well, I don't know if that's a Patriots pick anymore because it might be a little

bit different there without Tom with the news that broke earlier. But he's a pick for an established group that's a player away that might be, he might move up and down the line a little bit. It looks like from his body type he could play a couple positions. Yeah, he's, yeah, similar to like Isaiah Wynn, who they took in the first round a couple years ago, could play golf, could play tackle. Yeah, similar, similar dude. So moving on to quarterbacks real quick.

You know, you actually made a comment earlier. Obviously, the Tom Brady bomb dropped this morning on St. Patty's Day of all days to just rip the Boston faithful hearts out. My family in Charlestown is just freaking out probably. But you like Stidham. You mentioned liking Stidham. Yeah, I do like Jared a lot. He's, you know, again, we talked about the sequencing of what tape we, you watch as a scout. My first exposure to Jarrett was his junior spring. So we left Alabama's

pro day in the afternoon. Gus Maladon let us go to practice later that night at Auburn. And there is this kid out there that I'd never seen before. And he was just throwing dimes to every level of the field. Ball came off his hands so easy through such a pretty ball. And I pulled aside one of my buddies on their staff. And I'm like, you know, who's this kid? They're like, oh, that's the Baylor transfer. And I go, is this him every day? Or is it or is what am I seeing? Is this like, you know, is this an anomaly? And they're like, no, this is him every day. And I was like, man, you guys are going to be good with this kid. So, you know, what I said last year, like Gerard looks like he came out of the womb throwing a football.

Like he's just, he's so natural. I don't think he was a great fit in the system there at Auburn. He still won big games. He beat Georgia. He beat Alabama. I mean, this guy won big games. I think that it just wasn't a great fit for his skill set running that spread system at Auburn. And then you saw, I'm not, I mean, I think they do a great job up there. I think, you know, Coach Mileson, those guys, they always have the covered stock with great players and they do a good job. But when you saw last year, they struggled a little bit through the season. And then when you saw Gus take over the play calling duties in the bowl game against Purdue, and they scored 56 points in the first half, which was an all-time. time bowl record. I mean, Jared showed what he can be when you, when you, you know,

play to his strength. He can really throw it, man. And, and people say, well, that's Purdue. And my comeback to that is, yeah, that's the same Purdue team that made Dwayne Haskins look like an undrafted free agent, you know, I mean, Purdue put it on Ohio State. Yeah, I remember that game. Yeah, don't give me that, oh, it was Purdue thing. So, no, I think, Jared, again, does it all come together? I don't know. But does he have incredible armed talent. Yes, he does. Is he mature? Yes, he's very mature. He's been through adversity in his life. He's been through some hardships.

He's a mentally tough dude. You know, he's really smart. Talking to buddies on the staff there. They said he came a long, long way this year in terms of understanding their offense and what they want to do. So, you know, just comparing him to guys that have come out that I've done,

I mean, he's better than a lot of guys that have been drafted in the first round over the years. You know, I mean, so he has that kind of talent. Now, does it all materialize? and does he, you know, become that great pro? That remains to be seen. But there's, you know, there's going to be guys. If you put him out in this year's draft, you know, just from a talent standpoint,

he's in that mix with all these guys we're talking about the first round. When you just talk about pure physical talent, maturity, I mean, he has all that stuff. So we'll just have to see. I do think they'll bring in a vet. I think the smart move would maybe to bring in an end, Andy Dalton or someone like that. Right. To compete, I don't think, I think that they'll want to do something like that. I don't think they're just going to hand Jared the job.

No, that would be a nice car to hand the keys off to a young kid. Yeah. I mean, that would be like a Ferrari first car. Yeah, you know, my thing is with Jared is I just wanted the past fans to know, like, this kid got taken in the fourth round. He's not a fourth round player. Right. It's easy to just pigeonhole.

Yeah, yeah, he's a day three pick. He's not worth anything. No, he's actually way better than where he got picked. You talked about the first rounders this year with a Jordan Love. Okay, he's the big wild card. How do you evaluate a guy who had a really high high like that in college? Yeah, you got to go back over the last couple of years and really study Chris. I met Jordan this past summer at the Manning Camp and you see it on tape and then you see him throw alive.

I mean, very similar. I feel like I'm following up what I said with Sidem. These two guys love and Sidham throw it as naturally as any guys I've done in the last 15, you know, 10, 15 years. I mean, they're both. Jordan throws it so naturally. He can do, he can make any throw. You watch his sophomore tape. He was really good.

You watch this year's tape. Obviously, the numbers are what they are. You know, people really want to pick out the 17 interceptions, you know, 21 touchdown 17 picks. But, you know, he lost nine starters on offense. They had a tight end who played for the Bears this year. They had a running back who played for the Chiefs this year. So he didn't have any NFL guys around him. And I hate talking like this because you're kind of bagging on college kids.

And I hate doing that. But, you know, protection was a huge issue for him. And I made a point on Twitter a few weeks ago. And I was trying to rack my brain. Matt Ryan might be the other one. But, you know, this Jordan Love, he's the only guy I can remember doing that's going to throw into bigger windows in the NFL than he threw into in college. That's funny.

That's the Matt. And that's true about Matt, too. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Matt threw a bunch of picks his senior year as well. So, you know, and again, I look at it, you know, a lot of people say it's decision-making. Chris, I don't see it that way. I see it as a guy that's competitive. He's trying to win games.

And they fall, they fell behind in a lot of games. And I love the fact that he's not afraid to push the ball. And a lot of guys don't have the guts to do that. no matter what the scoreboard says. So, you know, a guy like Alex Smith got picked apart his whole career for being a checkdown guy. Yeah, you can't pick and choose. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like a completion center. Completion percentage now, you know, okay, you can complete 72% of your passes, but if you do, is that a good thing in the pros? Because you have to push the ball a little bit. Hey, Philip Rivers sounds like a similar psychological profile. And Philip Rivers is about to get paid to the tune about 30 million. around his 40th birthday. So, you know, that mindset serves people well to an extent.

I want to, before I let you go, are you good for another minute or two to talk about the Senior Bowl specifically? Yeah, I know I took you over. I'm enjoying talking. So you got here, you got to Mobile recently. I mean, this is what, your third year coming up? This is, yeah, I just got through our second game, yeah. So when you got there, I know you're like a tape junkie,

but now you're kind of running the show. How do you squeeze that time? It's, you know, it's been a challenge, Chris. So we were living here. This is my wife's hometown, so we were in Mobile for about 12 years. And I was, you know, doing the scouting thing out of airplanes and, you know, driving everywhere. So we were here, and that's why I jumped at the job. It just was, it was a perfect opportunity to continue to do what I love.

And that's the value of football players. But, you know, but be home with my family, you know. and not miss everything. My son's a freshman in high school now. I'm playing a bunch of sports, and I was missing everything. And, you know, I know your dad went through that, too. I wanted to be home for, be home for you and your brother. So it was a great opportunity. But, but yeah, you have to wear a lot of different hats. And that's been the biggest challenge, man, is when you're scouting, it's 24-7 football, you know, you're on the road. You're, you're watching tape by yourself. You're writing reports in a hotel room 200 nights of year by yourself.

And so now to, you know, to have to manage people and manage a budget. and, you know, do a lot of public speaking and a lot of media. I mean, these are just things that, you know, unless you get in that GM chair in the NFL, you don't have to do any of that. No matter how high you climb up the ladder, if you're not in that GM chair, you really don't do any of those things.

So it's been great exposure from that point. I've definitely been drinking from the fire hose, you know, a few times over the last few years. But it's been really good training, man. It's been a ton of fun. So like you talked about the grueling schedule, not only being 18 years in league and having to make a decision that like, I mean, it's a great career decision for you, but also it's two birds. I mean, you get to spend time with your family as well more than you would if you were working for a team, I presume. And then, you know, I have a buddy in scouting and I had this conversation with a couple years ago. He was describing how grueling it is. And I was just saying to him, I was like, what do you want to be when you, like, what's the goal here? And everybody's goal is to be, his goal is to be a GM. And so what if at one point you don't ever become a GM,

does that like, is that a fear that you spend all this time or do people in scouting, are they addicted to that grind? Like, is there just, it's just in their DNA? Even if there's no necessarily an end of the road, a goal, I mean, you're okay with spending that much time. What does it take to be a scout? Because it's like a psychological thing to be able to, to leave home, that much and grind that hard.

Yeah, man, this could be like a two-hour answer right here. But it's, you do love it. People ask you, you know, when you're in it, you love what you do. And you got to love what you do, man. It is. It's, you know, there's a lot of really difficult occupations out there. So I'm not trying to make it out to seem like we're, you know, cure and cancer do anything, you know, exceptional on the road.

But, you know, and there's traveling salesmen and truckers. I get it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But as far as, I mean, some people think this might be glamorous because you're working in pro football or you're working at the Senior Bowl. And I'm sure it's hard. Not everybody becomes a GM.

I mean, like my buddy's young. I talked to my boy and he's like, I don't know what would happen. I don't know if it's worth it for me. You know, but we'll see. Yeah, Chris, it is hard, man. You're on the road like 200 nights a year. Like I said, it's a lonely profession.

You're by yourself a ton. You don't, yeah, you're working in pro, football, but you might catch your team on the road, you know, once or twice a year if they come into an area that you're scouting. So you're not around the team a whole lot, depending on who you're working for, depending on who your GM is, that kind of determines how connected you feel to the organization. I've worked for some teams where, you know, I felt like I was a bit of an independent contractor. And then I've worked for teams, you know, that I felt really a part of it. And I think that's why, you know, you get done playing at whatever level and you, you know, you want to, you want to stay in football in some way, shape, or form because, you know, you love the brotherhood part of it and the camaraderie.

So I think that's why, you know, most of us do it, you know, to feel like we're doing something bigger than ourselves and we're trying to still compete and all that. But, yeah, if you fall short of the GM chair, again, it's not a total meritocracy in the NFL either. No. You know, there's a lot of guys, a lot of a lot of my friends are, are damn. good scout, you know, there are still area scouts after 15 years, you know, and they just haven't, you know, they haven't gotten that break yet. You know, again, a lot of it happens, you know, comes down to what teams you were with, you know, are you winning games or not. And everyone thinks if you're winning games, you have all the answers. So that's usually where the, you know,

people are picked from. So, yeah, that's, you know, and again, the other thing, too, is, you know, this is what I always dreamed about doing from the time I was a little kid. My dad was a high school coach. So I never got bit by the coaching bug. I just watched the draft. He's kid and this whole thing fantasy you know you know just you know building teams and be you know part of the team building process was always you know where I got you know enamored with it but when you do that when you're a little kid and then you go up through college and you're you know 18 22 you don't think of it be you don't think of this job through the eyes of a you know 40-something year old guy with a wife and two kids no yeah yeah yeah I didn't think about podcasting until I didn't

think about how hard. I mean, like having a family changes everything. I mean, it makes even easy stuff seem like, hey, you have to make some sacrifice. I can only imagine your deal is all day, all year. Yeah. So, I mean, and you know, man, like any job in football, it's not just, it's not coaching. It's not scouting. I mean, most jobs on the football side of things, if we're all looking in the mirror and beyond with ourselves, they're single men's jobs, you know, even players. I mean, that's, you know, what you guys do is players and what in the stress that puts on a a family and puts on a wife. I mean, that's, that's tough, it's tough stuff. And it doesn't get, it doesn't get talked about a lot. You know, there's a lot that happens when you're, when you're

away from your, your, your wife for 200 nights a year, when you're going through the grind of a season and you're physically beat up and, you know, you're mentally beat up. I mean, it's a great, it's a grueling, it's a grueling, it's a grueling sport period. Um, but again, there's, there's always that poll. We all, we all, we all, you know, try to figure out a way stay in it. By the way, Philip Rivers, so we can date this interview, if it comes out in the day, just agreed to terms with Indy. And I think that's a terrific thing for them. I really do. Because if you get to Philip Rivers from two years ago, you might be talking about a Super Bowl run. Yeah, no, I think that's a great move. And I think the writing was on the wall there.

I think we saw the foreshadowing when they traded for Buckner from 49ers the other day. Oh, my God, dude. Yeah, to me, yeah, talk about a long twitchy guy. Oh, fuck, dude, he's good. Like we were talking about earlier. But to me, they would have been in the running right there. To me, that was where Jordan Love, he, Jordan Love wasn't going to get past 13 in Indy had they not. Well, yeah, once they traded, yeah, once they traded their, their pick, you know, you're thinking, you're saying, well, in the absence of that, then you know what they're doing.

When you have, when you, you talked about the grind and all that stuff, give me one. piece of advice you would give to a younger scout that might want to be the you know the executive director of the senior bowl one day might want to be a GM might want to have a 20 year career with you Super Bowl rings uh give me some advice like if I'm young and I'm getting into scouting what are you going to tell me well there's a there's a lot um I guess one piece is you know do your own work have your own opinion and you know don't be afraid to like players you know I think that there's You know, there's certain, you know, don't be afraid to pound a table for the guy. Like, that's what you're out there doing it for.

I mean, you're away from your family and you're sacrificing, you're doing all that stuff. So when it comes down to draft meetings and your general manager really wants, you know, some conviction and some strong opinions in the room, you know, put in the work so you're ready to, you know, so you're ready to go to bat for guys. The best advice I was ever given was just do your own work. Don't let. There's so much noise out there now. you know, it didn't really have that when I started out in scouting. There wasn't Twitter and there wasn't, you know, the internet as much. It's like the media.

It's like the media. You're afraid to fire off a take because you got to read the room first. And I'm sure it's tough, you know, in a draft room or a war room or whatever you all call it. When you're like, fuck, if I, if I stand on the table for this guy, is there people going to make fun of me? Yeah. Yeah. No, there's some of that. But you do, you just got to block the noise out. And I do, I tell the, like,

the young guys in our office, we have, you know, three young guys. We had two last year, ones with the Raiders now, ones with the Falcons. We're trying to make this kind of a, you know, a stepping stone to get NFL jobs here in Mobile. And I told the three guys that said you block out the noise, do whatever you can, you know, get your eyes on the player first. And once you, once you feel convicted and know, you know what you see, well, then it's okay to maybe pay attention to some of the peripheral stuff. But, but, you know, get that, get that down on paper and have your own opinion and be strong in it. and the general managers, if they know you're putting in the work, they're going to respect that.

Nobody wants to wishy-washy scout. No one wants the guy that just grades everyone in the third or fourth round. And, you know what I'm saying? So I guess the biggest thing, if you're just sticking with football, there's tons of life, tons of life lessons. I've learned the hard way that I would give. But when it comes to football, just do your own work and don't afraid to be wrong. That sounds like great, great intel there. So as far as the Senior Bowl is concerned, since you've been exactly,

executive director you guys have seemed to get. And interestingly, I saw you talk about you brought on scouts, like your own kind of NFL scouts. Like, I don't know, how many do you have? And was that a void that was there before you came? Like you've got your own little full staff that's kind of traveling and doing their thing and prepping for the senior bowl? Yeah, Chris, man, glad you brought those guys up. They did an awesome job. So my first year, we had four guys. This year we had six. And the goal was to, you know, try to do this as close to what an NFL team is doing it the same way. You know, we're not, we don't have the same financial resources.

So, you know, we can't have guys out every night of the year in hotels and all that. But, you know, everyone that works for us has NFL backgrounds. They've all worked for teams before. You know, I thought it would be a really nice thing for guys that got let go from a team in the, you know, the previous spring. This would be a nice kind of soft landing spot for them because as long as you work in football at some point, man, you're going to get caught in the crosshair. I don't care if you're a coach, players, like, you're going to get fired at some point. It doesn't mean you're not good at what you do. It's just like, you know, they bring in a new GM or coach, and you're just not one of his guys, and you get let go.

So, yeah, so we've staffed it with some guys that I have a lot of familiarity with, you know, over my years in the league, and they've done an awesome job. We're at games every weekend in the fall. You know, they pump pregame video to me. We've been posting that on my Twitter, you know, for the last two years in the fall. and that's really served as a cool recruiting tool for us. It helps us connect with the players more so than we ever have been able to do before. And then, you know, we can download all the same tape that the teams do from the, from the Dub Center.

Oh, nice. Yeah, that makes it easy. Yeah, we're getting tape on a weekly basis and everyone's just sitting home watching, watching tape and filing reports into the office. And then when we get draftable grades back, that's who I look at. You know, I cross-checked any draftable grade that could get a guy into the senior. Bowl. And again, that's just how we've done it. It wasn't done like that in the past. We're just trying to, I'm trying to, you know, make this thing as close to an NFL setup as

can. And then really the second part quickly, Chris, is, you know, we invite about usually the first 80, 85 guys are pretty easy. And then around Thanksgiving, the week of Thanksgiving, the last two years, I reached out to, you know, all the general managers in the league. We've been roughly 16, 17 teams the last two years. And we'll sit there for an hour. hour, hour and a half and just go through the board position by position. And like if there's four offensive line spots open, I'll say, okay, here are the eight names that we kind of like right there at the cut line. Is there any four of those that stand out to you that you'd want to see in Mobile? Is there someone from outside of that group that maybe we're not on? A small school guy, maybe.

And we just have those discussions and we take detailed notes. And they kind of, we really lean on the league to help us shape that back end of the roster because, again, this game's for them. It's not for us. We're just trying to bring the best players down here for these guys to evaluate. And you probably know in dealing with the league because there is a lot of conversation leading up. You know, they tell you the players they want to see. Depending on how vehemently a team is campaigning for a player to be in Mobile, could you sometimes tell before they're going to pick them that they're going to pick them late?

Or, you know, they might reach up and snag a guy who was off the radar, like a particular team? Yeah, yeah, we did. We kept our notes from last year. really only have the one year a track record on that. But yeah, there were a couple guys that got drafted on day three last year that going back to those notes from November from those phone calls that they had pretty strong interest all the way through. Yeah, so you could kind of tell. Yeah, we could have called a couple of those for sure. So how have you been able to get the top guys? Because from what it sounds like, and certainly I didn't, I didn't go to the senior bowl because

this is kind of a two-part question. Okay. So like when I, in 2000, what was it, eight when I got drafted. I was a top five pick. So I'm thinking to myself like I only have a chance to get injured. My stock's definitely not going to rise because I thought I was lucky to be in top five anyways. Going back, I would have picked me at like 50. I would have picked me at like 15, which ain't nothing wrong with that. But like, so we're looking at, you know, these, these top tier players that you'd like to get to the senior bowl. You've been able to land more top tier guys than than the senior bowl has been able to in the past. It seems like you've been able to land some guys as of late the senior bowls is getting more of what they want in that right so a how are you doing

that and then b are there any players that you just feel like they don't have anything to gain in mobile and maybe they are right to sit it out or could you make an argument and sell the senior bowl to anybody well we we tried this year with joe burrow but yeah no so yeah i i appreciate to saying that chris yeah we had 10 first round picks last year which was our our biggest number in a long time. You know, the quarterback thing, we've had five top 10 guys in the last four years. I think that with Herbert and Love, they've got a chance this year to also get in that top 10 range. But, you know, I think the social media part has been huge, Chris. As you know, guys, people live on their phones, not just, you know, teenagers. We do too. So. Yeah, unfortunately, maybe more than the teenagers.

Yeah, seriously. That's, that's probably the downside of my job is all this Twitter time. But But no, it's been, it's been really important to connect with these guys because, you know, it kind of, it's gotten them excited about it. You know, we start, we've already started to post about next year's class now. Yeah. You know, like these guys, any, anytime these guys right now are, you know, announcing they're coming back to school for next year, you know, I'll tweet something at them, you know, to let them know that we're looking at them. So, you know, just to build the game up a little bit. And I think that, I think where the game was for a little period there was, it's like the kid that's coming out of, out of high school as a five-star kid that comes in saying at his press conference,

you know, where he announces what school, then I'm going to be three and done, right? So, you know, then he gets to the end of his junior year. And if he doesn't come out, you know, even though his head coach might be telling him, listen, all my friends in the league think you're a fifth round pick, now if he doesn't come out, he's already said he's going to be three and done. He's almost, you know, he's almost like, you know, saying he's a failure if he doesn't do it, you know, or he's going back on his word so they come out anyway. they don't get drafted where they should.

I think it got to, it was maybe to the point a little bit where if you came to a senior bowl, then you were almost saying you weren't going to be a first or second round pick. Right. Like you needed the game. You know, like if you went to the game, you really needed the game.

And, you know, my point to that would be, like last year with the 10 first round picks, I really felt like coming into the week, there was maybe three or four of those guys were going to be first round picks. I truly felt like six or seven. of them played their way in in Mobile. Right. And to me, those guys have more to gain at the top

of the draft than these guys that, you know, like we had a kid, Ben Barch this year, this offensive lineman from St. John's in Minnesota, Division III school, Division III player. I mean, he's playing against defensive ends that are probably six one, you know, 220 pounds. So he, you know, there's no way for a scout to put anything more than like a sixth or seventh round grade on that guy. It's just impossible. You know, you're putting your nuts out. out there just even doing that. So for him to come down here and block Javon Kinlaw and Marlon Davidson from Auburn for a couple of days, you know, now he's now hearing from Scouts, he's probably going in the third

round. That's wild, too. Yeah, that's wild. That's a big jump. That's a massive jump. But if you're like, say you're Javan Kinlaw and you came down here is someone who was projected to go in the teen, say he was going to go 16 and now he goes seven, there's a lot more money in those nine spots he moved up. Yeah, you're even making more money than your small school

kid. Yeah. I mean, you're, I mean, you're making, you mean, if Justin Herbert came down here is maybe, you know, the 10th or 11th pick and now he's going to go three, four, five. I mean, that's, that's $12, $14 million. So to me, those guys have almost, they have more to gain by coming to the senior ball. And that's, and that's the message we're trying to get out there, you know, and then like, where you're like, okay so here's a great example and I've told agents this since I took the job was that if you have a guy that's the clear cut number one guy at his position I kind of get it right like if he doesn't have anywhere to move up like Derek Brown for example like Derek was was one guy that that declined his invite this year he called me after the Iron Bowl and said he you know he was trying to decide between playing in the in his team's bowl game or our game and I tried to get him to do both but right but he really is like going into the process he's the clear got interior defensive linemen. And I think that what Ken Law did down here, he's probably tighten the gap a little bit. But that's a harder sell.

You know, I didn't push Derek hard on it at all. I was like, you know what, Derek, good luck, man. He's a great kid. He's a great player. And then with Joe Burrow, my point with Joe was, you know, there was a really weird circumstance because they played that national championship game on Monday. His teammates and the Clemson guys came on Sunday.

Like five days later during Mobile. So that was a great. crazy turnaround. And you take that into account? Sorry, do you take that in account real quick? Sorry to cut you off. Do you take that physical fatigue into account? And evaluating guys?

Yeah, Chris, this was the first year we had. Yeah, Chris, this was the first year we had that where we butted up right on the national championship game. We've always had a two-week window. So that was, that was new for us. But what it did for me was, yeah, I mean, we, I get it. I totally understand. They just played a violent game on Monday.

It was very violent. It was awesome. It was a great game. But to me, and I've talked to guys in the league about this, so we had, you know, four LSU players come play in the game, and we had three Clemson guys come play in the game. And to me, and four of them were offensive linemen. So those guys were, you know, beat up. To me, that's a huge feather in those guys' cap, you know,

and the league all realizes that. Like, I've talked to them about those four linemen in particular, and the league are like, yeah, man, we trust me. We took no to that. that they turned that they turned around and came right to mobile like we we get it so that they helped themselves by doing that and and you know with with burrow it was more you know just come hang out with the bengals for a week yeah thought that there might be some value there just even if he didn't do anything even it just it was just being in meetings and hanging out behind the scenes

with their staff you know he would get feel for them and they'd get a feel for him and it might be mutually beneficial but the way the way joe played this year and had himself positioned is the number of an overall pick like um i i totally i totally got it you know like i saw him i saw him at the combine he's a great guy and he he called me after their white house visit and we talked about 30 minutes and he was great about it and um he even he said he's like jim i didn't see this year coming you know he's like when we i met him at the man in camp last summer and he's just like you know if you would have told me back in june that i was declining the senior bowl i would have told you're crazy like yeah well he didn't know who he was going to be you know in a year's

time. You had a memory you wanted, you had memories you wanted to share from the old Virginia days before I let you go. Yeah. So, so just for the listeners, yeah, and I'm not, I'm not saying this to stroke you on your own podcast. Well, shit, that's why I had you on. I talked to you for 45 minutes. So yeah, at the end, I could get some, some love. No, people, you know, people always ask me, like, who was the best player you ever scouted and everything. And I always tell players from a scout perspective, the biggest compliment I can give a player is that if I tell you you're fun to watch. Yeah. And like

to me, the guys that are the most fun to watch over my time in scouting, you stick out, Troy Paula Malo sticks out. I mean, there's a small handful of guys just because of your play style and everything. So no, you were, you were a fun guy to watch

on tape. But you remember Clint too, Clint Sinnam, you know, he just got hired by Virginia. We had a couple pros. Back in the day at UVA when Al Groh was there. And Bronco's doing a really good job now. But Al built things to be pro ready. And I know you came to Charlottesville probably once or twice, yeah? Yeah, you came to Charlottesville. Yeah, because Luke the video guy there was Virginia, Luke Goldstein was the best. He let it come and hang out.

Coach Ro rolled out the red carpet. And you guys were great because that was back in my Patriot days when we were running like a straight two gap, you know, a three, four, two gap team. And you and you and Clint sent him were, had to have been the best pair of edged set in college outside linebackers I've ever seen. Well, we didn't like the two gap and stuff as much as you all did, but it was all good, man. Clint just got hired at Virginia. But I guess that my question would be,

Al Groh kind of had an open door policy. He was very NFL friendly. Has that been more adopted by college coaches now? 10 years later, 11, 12 years later. Yeah. I think it has. There were a lot of restrictions back in the day. You had like, you know, Joe Pah didn't really care for us at Penn State.

And, gosh, you know, Virginia Tech was, didn't like us come in. Those guys just never, they never panned out those tech guys. That's why. I'm just fucking around. I'm getting my shot in while we've actually beat them this last year. So, but, but no, I think, you know, Coach Saban, in Tuscaloosa since he's been at Alabama. He's been wide open 365 and he's winning a bunch of national titles. So I think that a lot of schools have followed suit. And yeah, and Coach Groh was great.

In fact, you Clint sent him one story I remember you. So it was, it must have been your by week of your rookie year. I was back, scout and Clint. And you came back. Did you, again, it's a long time ago. Didn't you raise the flag at the game that day? I had to raise the flag. Yeah, which I'm not usually into that stuff. And you were, it was good, but you were wearing Clint 51 jersey, which, yeah, from like, I thought that was like the ultimate badass teammate move. That's my guy. That's my guy.

It was a little tight. It was a little tight. It's hard when everybody's looking at you and you got the game jersey. They didn't even have like an appearance jersey because they don't have those in college, that tight-ass game jersey. Real quick, Jim, before I let you go, lightning round here, quick answers only, okay? Give me three of your favorite road cities, obscure road cities as you're out scouting these players. Charlottesville is one of them, not just saying that.

Love the campus in Palo Alto. Yeah, yeah. College towns, Madison, Wisconsin is a great college town. I'm biased. I love Ann Arbor. Austin, Texas is a great place. So you're hitting all the big ones. Give me one that there's tumbleweeds coming through.

I know you're not going to say Lubbock or anything like that. Give me one that's going to surprise people. Kind of often, but a great college town? Yeah. Oxford, Ohio, Miami of Ohio. That's a great little camp. Okay, good, good. Okay, so you scouted under Bill Belichick and Pete Carroll, not bad.

Did either of those guys have a big pet peeve that you were like, if this player does this or looks like this or weighs this much or walks this way, we're not, we're not scouting. Yeah, in Seattle it was stubby corners. Yeah, you couldn't. You couldn't have, those guys had to be long. If you were under six foot, yeah, if you were under six foot, you didn't really have a chance.

They've, they've lightened that the last couple years, you know, with some nickels. But, yeah, that was, we were pretty hard and fast on those long corners. And anything for Bill, other than probably being not tough. Being dumb. Being dumb. Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. Don't bring it. Don't bring, don't, don't, don't put on the table for a dumb guy. And you shouldn't because he won't get the scheme up there. Let me tell you. I was, I was getting checks after the ball snapped. Like, you know, like I'm in my rush getting a check. Um, and then lastly, we'll start with worse misses, but worse misses and proudest hits for you

professionally. Give me one or two that you might remember. You can finish with the proudest hand. Oh, man. Biggest misses. Man, these are really tough for me because I don't really consider a missus unless you pounded the table and your team drafted them. Right, right, right.

Yeah, maybe somebody you were wrong about on another team. Yeah, no, trust me. There's, man, there's plenty. I'm not going to. I mean, even Mike Mayock, who I think the world of, and I think is doing a great job, you know, he missed sometimes, but he had to do it for a living, like, in public. No, we, no, I should, I should go through all the binders and rip out all the, all the misses.

Trust me, there's plenty. There's plenty. Now I'm just trying to think. Give me a proud, a proud hit then. Oh, you know, some of the proudest hit the scouts are like the late round guys, you know, in the free agents, the guys that not everyone got to see. So, like, I was, I was, like, Julian Edelman. Yeah, Jules. was the guy that I you know when jules was a quarterback at kent state or uh mike right i know mike was before your time in new england but he was a nose from cincinnati it's a hard playing nose and i think mike got seven or eight years in new england and we got him as an undrafted

pre-agent you know just put put in a ton of good work behind vince will for for for a lot of years um so it's guys like that those are the guys that is a scout you take a lot of pride in that you know other other guys might be going through the school and ignoring them and uh you end up with with a on your team. But, but man, let me tell you with the misses. I don't want to sound like I've got, I've got plenty of minutes. No, I know it's hard to be on the spot. You just can't remember. When you spend that many years on the road, uh, and for that many days on the road, I'm sure it all kind of blends together. Uh, Jim, thank you so much for your time, man. And I think you're doing a great job with the senior bowl from the outside looking in, uh, as we talked about.

It's really on the up and up even, even more so from where it was is a historic destination for college players. So keep up the great work. and I appreciate you. Please come back anytime. Yeah, Chris, thanks for having me on, man. I love that you're lending a former player's voice to this whole, you know, pod world and Twitter world. It's awesome, man.

I love your stuff. That's my life now, man. That's my life. I'm a pod dad. That's about it, bro. So I'll come see you down there at some point, man. We'll get a beer. It's good talking to you.

That sounds awesome. Thanks, Chris. Okay, buddy.