Green Light with Chris Long - Chris Cillizza! Sports & Politics, Most Athletic Presidents & Gerald Ford Dominating on the Gridiron

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

A colorful look at how modern presidents play sports, have used sports to play politics, and what our fan-in-chief can often tell us about our national pastimes. (2:24) - Chris Cillizza talks about his book, Power Players: Sports, Politics and the American Presidency, which details the intimate history between sports and the Highest Office of the United States, from Dwight Eisenhower playing golf to Gerald Ford dominating the football field to Barack Obama's famous pickup basketball games (39:46) - History of Bowling at the White House, Which Presidents Would Have Sports Bet, Donald Trump's Fake Athletic Prowess and Bill Clinton and Arkansas Basketball (1:13:17) - JFK's Athletic History, Best Current Athletes as President, Angel Reese and Jill Biden and Championship Teams at the White House Power Players available online: https://www.amazon.com/Power-Players-Politics-American-Presidency/dp/1538720604 Have some interesting takes, some codebreaks or just want to talk to the Green Light Crew? We want to hear from you. Call into the Green Light Hotline and give us your hottest takes, your biggest gripes and general thoughts. Day and night, this hotline is open. Green Light Hotline: ‪[phone]‬ Send any Talent Search submissions to: [e-mail] Include any video of your talents, takes and bits as well as a little bit about yourself. Love hearing from the Green Light fans. Also, check out our paddling partners at paddleva.com to get your canoes, kayaks and paddleboards so you're set to hit the river this summer. Green Light Spotify Music: https://open.spotify.com/user/951jyryv2nu6l4iqz9p81him9?si=17c560d10ff04a9b   Spotify Layup Line: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1olmCMKGMEyWwOKaT1Aah3?si=675d445ddb824c42   Green Light Tube YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/GreenLightTube1   Green Light with Chris Long: Subscribe and enjoy weekly content including podcasts, documentaries, live chats, celebrity interviews and more including hot news items, trending discussions from the NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, NCAA are just a small part of what we will be sharing with you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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A very different but fun episode away to you today. We welcome Chris Sele-Lisita Studio Jake. Chris is a political commentator. He's worked for CNN. He's written for a number of different publications, and he's been a frequent panelists on Meet the Press. He's also written a number of books, one of which is the subject of today's episode. Power Players, Sports Politics, and the American Presidency. One, it's a really interesting read. Please go out and pick up the book, and two, you'll really enjoy this interview. In the book, Chris explains the crossroads between politics and sports, how the presidents

in the Oval Office have all been involved with sports from Gerald Ford, being a star. our football player to Barack Obama's pickup basketball career, to George W. Bush throwing out the most famous first pitch in all of baseball. We pick up with the presidency around the mid-20th century and run all the way through the current presidents. Chris goes through some great stories, details some really interesting facts about our presidents and the sports that they played, and gets into the current climate of how sports and politics use each other. You all please enjoy the subject and have a great weekend.

All right, this special treat. This is a thinking man's pod, thinking woman's pod. So from time to time with a history teacher on staff, we go backwards. And we love talking about presidents. And I am really excited to have Chris Eliza in studio today. He drove down from D.C. To talk about, among other things, his book Power Players. It's about how basically sports and the presidency kind of overlap.

in the history of our country. We see sports as sports fans as entertainment, but if you're the president, you might see it as an opportunity. And I think it's a really interesting topic. You might know Chris from the Kornheiser show from CNN, Washington Post. You catch him on Substack.

He's got a really good following, and we just met. So I want to welcome Chris into the studio. Happy to be here. Glad to be in Charlottesville. It's great having somebody in studio. Yeah, it's way better. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, years in TV. has taught me that if you can be in person, you're much better off. Remote is not as good. And that's the way the whole landscape, we were talking about the whole landscape before we popped on. But that's the way the landscape's going. So anytime we're not on Zoom post-pandemic, I'm a happy man. And so I appreciate you being here. What's tough for Meet the Press are coming down here for Greenlight Pop.

Well, this just started. So I don't know that I can make a total determination on that. Meet the Press isn't bad. You know, it's funny, life is all relationship driven. So I know Chuck Todd really well. Also, by the way, a huge sports fan. Really? Yeah.

Miami went to University of Miami on a French Horn scholarship. Fun fact. French Horn scholarship, they're giving them out. They are. Yeah, get your kid playing the French horn. Do you think your kid should be playing basketball? Yeah, I think it should be playing basketball. They should be playing the French horn.

So it's not as nerve-wracking as you might think. TV is all, it's like everything else. The first time I was ever on TV, I was on C-SPAN when I was 24. And I literally look like I'm going to have a heart attack. I'm like sweating. It's rough. Got like my dad's wool suit coat on. I mean, it's not a good look.

But you know, over time, he's like, you either stop doing it or you get less nervous doing it. So. No question. Plus, I've always liked to hear myself talk. No, I mean, me too. That's why I have talked to. Yeah, right, right. So we have that in common.

You know, like if we're talking about presidents in sports, before we get there, since you have a really wide-ranging kind of like network of relationships in the media, who's a great athlete in the political media? Oh, good question. Yeah, who could actually throw a ball around or hit a ball? So, Chris, my experience primarily is playing basketball.

Yeah. Because that's what I was, to the extent I was, ever good at anything. I was good at playing basketball. I was like this height when I was 12. What are you? 6.3, 6.4? 6, 3.

Yeah. When I was 12, that was a huge advantage in my town of 5,000 people. I was house and people. You know, I mean, I was just killing people. I didn't realize the world was bigger than my town of 5,000 people in rural Connecticut. Chris Hayes is a good basketball player from MSNBC. Yeah. Good drive.

Pretty tough. like competitive guy you would want to play pickup basketball with. Who else is good? Guy named Paul Jugo, who's the editor of the Wall Street Journal's op-ed page. He's older now, but physical, tough, you know, unapal. I like people who mix it up. Because like if you even pick up basketball at D.C. People call in fouls all the time.

Well, even pick up basketball in D.C. is like semi-political because it's like, oh, you know, I for years played at Gonzaga High School. Yeah. I didn't play at Gonzaga. They're incredible, but I play pickup at Gonzaga high school. And it would be, you know, a bunch of lobbyists and guys who worked for members of Congress and former, you know, former members of Congress and media types. I like the people that, like, get into it.

Hard fouls? Yeah. Like politically driven hard foul? I don't always wondered about that. I'd always say, you know, like, you can do whatever you want, but just don't touch the face. Yeah. You know, for me. Yeah, it's the moneymaker.

Yeah. Yeah. I'd always, I'd go, I'd go for. I'm playing pickup and I'd like take you know you try to like uh you gotta go out and I'd have to go do TV and so I'd finish playing basketball at like 730 and I'd be on TV at 830 and I'm like that's plenty of time I'll cool down take like a super cold shower and then get out and still be sweating like a pig tomato totally it's really the worst I did that a number of times so there's a few um you know who's really good basketball player uh is john the senator John

Thune yeah he played at biola biblical institute of Los Angeles N-AI school. He's tall. He's about 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6. Again, he's older now. He's probably in his 60s. I don't want to age him, but I think he's in his 60s. I played with him when he was in his late 40s. He's good.

He could play, he can shoot. He was good. There's a few lobbyists out there who were good. But yeah, look, D.C. is not the world's most athletic place. Like when you're talking about the political world, you know, it's not.

not like the, I mean, yeah, Bill Bradley was a great basketball player, but that was like before my time. You know what I'm saying? And why are sports in politics so seemingly inextricably linked? I mean, like around the world, too. Well, you can talk to this, I think, too, as a professional athlete. Like, I think the, I think there are two things that really, well, one big thing that really drives it is ambition. So politicians are ambitious just by nature, really ambitious people, high achieving, really, really strong willpower, people who are drawn to performing in public. I mean, I always say, like, look, you could be on the Montgomery County Council in D.C. And, you know, you're not on TV.

Like, if you're running for president of the United States, you're performing. I mean, it's a performance job in front of lots and lots of people. You like getting cheered. You know, I mean, I would assume at least part of what drives professional athletes is, You run out and people scream your name. You feed off the crap. Right, exactly. Same thing.

I think they're really competitive people, too. Yeah. Again, politics is a healthy egos. Yes, and a healthy ego. Let me talk about the ego thing for a sec. Think about if you want to run for president, what you're saying. You among 330 million people are uniquely skilled to represent all those people. It's a massive egotistical statement.

You know what I mean? Like I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that in my family, much less like, you know, the country. And I just, I also think the competitiveness thing is really important because, again, you are, you are choosing to be judged by a fickle public, which again, it's not all that dissimilar from sports. It's like, you know, one GM to another GM or one coach to another coach or just the public of, you know, fans of the team. you know, I always ask people who are not in politics. Like just imagine if your life was every two years, your co-workers got to vote on whether you kept your job or not. That's politics.

I mean, every two years, you have to go, six if you're in the Senate, too, if you're in the House, four if you're president. But every couple years, you have to go and have judgment rendered on you by the people who you represent. It's a hard thing. And I think it drives, it's a certain kind of.

kind of person, really ambitious, really competitive that is drawn to it. I always feel like does it possibly disqualify the people who would be best suited to run a country? Because the personality type that demands that ascension and, you know, the willingness to burn bridges, the ego, the, you know, the willing to, the willingness to kind of forego your values for the greater good of the party and that sort of thing, the quit. pro quo, like the people I imagine that I'd want to run the country wouldn't be willing to do all those things.

No, we were talking about this beforehand is, you know, how do you wind up with an 80-year-old and a 76-year-old who have already run once against one another? How do you wind up with the two of them? I'm wondering the same thing. Right. How do you wind up with the two of them? And the reason I think is because politics is not an appealing profession. Right.

It's already hard, as I mentioned. Like you're going out having to raise a ton of money, ask for votes constantly, ask for, for money probably even more constantly than you're asking for votes. You figure if you're going to run for president, you got to raise at least a billion dollars. You know, that Biden raised a billion three. Trump breaks all rules, but you know, probably less than that, but still in the billion dollar range. I mean, just think about, think about the difficulty of raising a million dollars, you know, and then add 999 more to that. You're subject to, you're subject to, I don't want to call it character assassination, but a deep dive into your character.

And I would suggest that most people in this country, certainly myself included, if every national reporter was diving into my background, I'm not sure how well I would fare. What's that, what's that like for them? Because I always wanted, if I were to run for president, not that I'm thinking about it,

but just the only thing, the only lens that I look at it through is, what would that background check be like? Yeah. You know, like, and what goes into that? and are there ways that they combat that?

Like if you're getting ready to run, do you go back through your history? And you've got somebody who is assigned to wiping this lake clean. If you're smart, and not all of them are smart about it, but if you've got good people around you, what you do is you do an Opos research book on yourself. So you have a private investigator. There are people who just do opposition research, so they go through public records.

and obviously if you've ever been arrested before and all they go through all that stuff that stuff's easy but divorce proceedings i mean the number of times senate house and in presidential races where it's like it starts off like oh the divorce the divorce proceedings are sealed and then it's like oh here are the divorce proceedings it's like well i thought they were like everything comes out is the general rule so i think the smartest thing it's like life you're better off getting ahead of it so you know it's coming. Now, can you wipe stuff clean? I'm skeptical you can forget anything

in the age of the internet. I'm skeptical, anything goes away. And that's the thing is now I feel like, you know, forecast 20 years down the road, it's gonna be almost impossible to run under that standard that somebody in the 90s would have run where you had to be relatively squeaky clean.

There's a paper trail for everything now, and it's electronic, and there's video of you doing X, Y, and Z. It's like the standard has naturally lowered. I mean, Trump. Well, I was going to say, Trump, I mean, look, I still remember when Trump emerged on the scene, this is May 2015. You know, my main criticism of him was like, this was still a party that was very socially conservative, the Republican Party. This is a guy who had been married three times. His current wife is significantly younger than he is. He's got kids from several different

marriages. I just figured that won't fly. Now, again, Trump, I think it's important to remember breaks every rule. Now the question is, is it just him breaking the rule? Like, is it a one-off? You know, is it an anomaly? Like, yes, he breaks the rules, but the rules are still the same for everybody else or not.

I mean, in the 2016, my favorite slash the worst part of the 2016 campaign was Marco Rubio for two days tried to get in the gutter with Trump. And his big attack, if you remember it, was Trump has small hands. You know what that means. Like that was the whole thing. And Trump, in a debate, which still stuns me, I went and watched this the other week, in a debate said, trust me, there's no problem down there.

I guarantee it, which is really remarkable. I assigned my middle school students to watch that debate immediately regretted it. I mean, it's stunning. The debates are awful. It's stunning that that occurred. Like, and yet you would think, like, oh, that's bad. Talking about his genitalia size might be bad for. for Donald Trump. Nope.

Totally fine for him. It was bad for Marco Rubio. People are like, I can't believe Marka Rubio is playing nasty pool. And you're like, wait, what? Yeah. Like, what about the other guy? So that's the thing with him is I don't know whether we've changed as a country, whether it's through the, you know, social media, rise of the internet, whatever.

We've changed as a country. We don't expect that out of our politicians anymore being divorced. I mean, it was such a big deal that Reagan was divorced and remarried. It was like a huge thing. Now you got a guy who's on his third marriage, right? Does it not matter anymore? Or is it just Trump? And then, you know, it matters for everybody not named Trump.

I think it's a mental gymnastics of whoever you want to be the guy. Totally. You just justify it. You can shoehorn your belief system into almost anything. Did I hear that LBJ had big hands? Huge. Big guy. Big hands.

Yes. And also you want to talk about a guy who was. comfortable with public nudity. There's all these, there's some of this stuff in the book. You know, he was famous for having people come in while he was going to the bathroom.

Like pulling people into the bathroom while he was going. Literally, actively. Check this out. Yeah. And he would talk a lot about the size of his Johnson, like in public, like, not like public speeches, but like with other people, including his

AIDS. He was fascinating. by it. He had nickname for it. What was the nickname? I don't remember. I blocked that out. Yeah, I blocked that out a while ago. I couldn't live with that information. Couldn't have that information right on hand. So the other thing I think about sports and politics is, you know, the fact that his presidential penis nickname was Jumbo.

Oh, there you go. So it's back to the internet. Now you have it in your head. Now, thanks, great. But yeah, we talk politics on this pod. You know, when it comes to the presidency and world leaders at large, like a lot of them are men. And I do believe it's hard to ignore the, you know, the masculine nature of like being in with the guys. And being in with the most popular teams and leagues, like that kind of.

And a lot of these guys aren't jocks. You know, a lot of these guys are not athletic. And the feeling of like I'm in the club. And I'm pictured in the club and I'm shaking hands. Totally. The one that jumps to mind there is Reagan. So Reagan is like a very indifferent athlete. He played all these guys.

I mean, it's so hard because times have changed so much. Many of these guys played football in college. Yeah. But it's not like how you played football in college. You know what I mean? It's like Reagan played at Eureka College, which is this tiny school in California. So he plays, but it was more, he doesn't really care about it. He's not into it to the extent he cares at all about

Sports is he played this guy named George Gipp in Newt Rockney All-American, this old-time movie He plays this running back who gets sick and dies And so that's where win-one for the Gipper comes from It's all it's all from that movie So the extent he cares about anything he cares about Notre Dame football Because that movie is about Notre Dame football Again, it's a totally fictional account

But like Reagan gets into it But Reagan is smart to your point about wanting to be in with like the in crowd. What Reagan realizes is like, wait a minute, being pictured around great athletes is good for me. So Reagan formalizes the process of bringing in Super Bowl winning teams, NBA champions, college champions into the White House.

You know, we think of that happening all the time now. That was Reagan. Yeah. And there's great footage. God bless YouTube for this book because there's great footage on YouTube of like Reagan shooting a puck into a goal that they set up. Reagan throwing a football. Reagan shooting a basketball.

How many takes? Yeah, you don't know how many takes it took. I agree. They didn't show that. Yeah. But he loved, like, getting the jersey, and he was fascinated. I mean, some of the stuff, this is in the book. He's, like, totally fascinated by how tall Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was.

Like, he had to stoop to get into the Oval Office. So he got it. He understood that in sort of a which I don't think should be terribly surprising. This is a guy who built his career as an actor He gets perception. Yeah, he gets a perception off in Trump's reality. So when you ask people like who was a good athlete president? A lot of people say Reagan. Yeah, and most people I always Ford is sort of a forgotten president, but but to the extent that people have any impression of Jerry Ford, it's like he was clumsy. He's kind of an oaf, he was terrible at golf like Jerry Ford was an all-American offensive lineman at Michigan. Yeah. And, and, and he was, you know, he was a half-American offensive lineman at Michigan. Yeah. And the linebacker, right? Yes, he had offers to play for the lions and the Packers coming out of college. Now, he turned him down to go to law school, which, like, talk about decisions that, like, are different today than they were then.

Back then, it was, like, $800 a week or something to play professional sports. It was not like, not like it is now. But, like, the perception of him is that he was this, like, terrible athlete. He was pretty bad at golf. Yeah. But he's, like, a really good skier. He's, like, a really good natural athlete. he downplays it because he doesn't want to be a dumb jock.

Yeah. And he might be one of the best athletes of all the presidents. Best athlete. Really? Yeah, yeah. No question. I mean, well, I should say, I always say this about it. I wrote about, I wrote about from Eisenhower to Biden.

Yeah. So that's 13 presidents. Like, is it possible that like Millard Fillmore was like a great athlete? Or like Teddy Roosevelt. I mean, he seemed to be great at everything. He was like a good, yes, he was like clearly a good outdoorsman. You know, Teddy Roosevelt effectively saves football. he brings in the heads of Princeton and Yale,

the powerhouses of college football at the time, which is not what they are now, but at the time it's Ivy League, brings them in because people are dying on the field and, like, having suffering brain injury. And they bring the modern, the forward pass in. They change a bunch of rules that makes football grow. So yes, Roosevelt is one.

But I don't, to me, it's like clearly Ford, just because he played Division I athletics at a super high level. Yeah. No one else did that. Bush, senior, so George H.W. Bush, played baseball at Yale.

Yeah. Light hitting, slick fielding, first baseman, never had any, I don't think had any dreams, maybe a dreams of, but never any real chance of being a pro.

Yeah. Not good enough. Yeah. But other than that, like, I would say more than half of them are mediocre to bad athletes.

It doesn't mean they don't, other than Johnson, Johnson does not compete in any sports. Doesn't care, never interested. The rest of them play sports. Nixon plays football in college at Whittier College. Fascinating because it's like there's all these great interviews with his teammates from the time where they're like, he was basically a tackling dummy.

Yes. You know, well, you know, I mean, there's some guys, you need the practice squad too, you know? And he was, practice squad would be like a real step up for Nixon, to be honest. But he's at this tiny school, and he's just a guy who gets tackled. He's a guy who gets knocked down. But he was, like, the biggest sports fan, right?

Huge fanatic sports fan. My favorite story about it, like, talk about focused on the wrong stuff. So during Watergate, this AP reporter, like at the end of a press conference, this AP reporter is like, uh, who's your favorite baseball player ever? And Nixon is like, Nixon says something like, let me get back to you, which usually, I always say, You know, when a politician says, let me get back to you, it's basically like, I will never answer this question ever in my life. You know, it's like code. But Nixon goes to Camp David with his son-in-law, David Eisenhower, who's married to Julie Nixon, is married to Julie Nixon.

And he comes up with, I mean, this is like so over the top. He comes up with four different teams. One from like 1850 to 1930 American League and National League, one 1930 to the 60s, American League and National League. And it's not just like Ted Williams, George. DiMaggio, he like goes way deep into it. Like he's got like the left-handed relief pitcher out of the bullpen. He's like so into it. And again, just a reminder, this is during Watergate.

You know, like there were other fish to fry. I mean, maybe needed a distraction. A big board and is in the old. Right, exactly. I'm like, why does he, why is he that into it? But, but yeah, he's, he is the biggest fan. I mean, I think the right way to see Nixon is like, the guy who in the modern era would be the team manager.

Like he's not good enough at sports to really play. Back then it was like... Like we'd hire him here to do like research and... Totally. He'd be great at that. Yeah, you know? That would be his wheelhouse. He loved that stuff.

He loves stats and all that stuff. So yeah, he's like that guy. He's like the stats guy. Yeah. Who's real into it and who knows everything about it but never played it. certainly was not good if he and when he played it but is obsessed with it i mean nixon is like a you mentioned at the start like we think of sports as something we do for fun and distraction and you know and then politicians like do they use pol do they use sports for their own political

gains the answer that is of course is yes they're politicians they use everything for political gain but nixon actually is like a real genuine fan yeah i think he is like a legitimate fan look he did some stuff. He goes to 1969. It's called the Game of of the Century. It's Texas versus Arkansas, college football. They're both undefeated at the time. He goes to that game on the advice of his political

people who say that this is like in your wheelhouse and you know, this is these are your people. So he goes, there's a great part of that game. So he goes to that game. He goes into the booth at halftime and Arkansas is winning and he predicts Texas wins. Now who

is watching that game at home? young Bill Clinton. No way. Yes. And Bill Clinton still, it's in the book, Bill Clinton still remembers how pissed off he was at Nixon for what he took. Texas goes on to win.

Texas goes on win. And Clinton, obviously, Clinton is another one who's actually like a real fan, at least of the Arkansas teams, football and basketball. And he's just pissed at him for years that he picked it, you know,

like that. That's why I got. Now, another interesting about that is Joe, Joe Paterno is like rip shit that because what Nixon essentially does to say, this is, this is obviously before the BCS championship. Like this is, you know, it was like declaring a national champion was random. So Nixon essentially says like whoever wins this game will be the national champion. Penn State is undefeated that year too. And Paterno, there's these great paternal quotes.

They're in the book. There's these great paternal quotes like, maybe Richard Nixon to spend more time with politics in sports. Like he's pissed because I think it's Penn State. Stick to politics. Right. Bill Clinton one time, I love this story too, just about fans, like a real fan. He goes to, in

94, I think that's right. Duke and Arkansas are playing in the College Basketball National Championship. It's 94, right? Yeah, I remember. I always remember the Final Four. UCLA, Oklahoma State is Big Country Reeves. Yep, Brian Reeves.

And Arkansas and UNC, maybe. So Arkansas has Scotty Thurman. They have Corliss Williamson. Those are their two big guys. And the coach is in Old Richardson. It was the whole 40 minutes of hell thing. They press the whole game, right? Clinton, he spends the morning at Jacobsfield, opening Jacobsfield for the then-Cleveland

Indians. He throws out the first pitch. It's a day game, blah, blah, blah. he then goes at night to the national championship game. And he's in a box, obviously, he's the president of the United States. And he's like really pissed at the referee. Like, I mean, welcome to every team that's ever played Duke in college basketball ever. You know what I mean?

Like, oh, you think that Duke is getting the calls? What a giant surprise. You also hate Duke? Yes. Yeah, yeah. I'm a Georgetown fan. I hate everyone who's not Georgetown, basically, which is a lot of people. We're so bad now.

I feel like it's almost important. I've lost my ability to care. I've, I've, I've moved into stunned apathy. Try, uh, losing to a 16 C.

Yeah, there is that. You've had, you've won a national championship in the last few years. You're right. It's hard to come back. I mean, anyway,

he goes to this game and he's, he's like wildly gesticulating in the box at the refs. And like the camera pans up to him. Mm-hmm. And like, shows it. And so at halftime, they have to sit him down and be like,

you know, Mr. President. Like, you can't. Not a good look. Yeah, like you can't do that. Like we get that we get that Arkansas is getting screwed and Duke is you know Duke is their favorite

But like you're the president of the United States so you can't bathe though Arkansas goes on and wins he goes in the locker room. It's like a huge moment for him But he's another one who's like an actual fan yeah you know Particularly of the Arkansas teams you know you get beyond that he he winds up being like Interestingly like a big soccer advocate tried to get the World Cup here This time around it lost out to it I talked to a guy who was there when he was given the presentation.

This was like six years ago and said that Clinton spoke entirely about him. So typical. Clinton spoke entirely about himself and didn't talk at all about the U.S. and the Olympics and that Morgan Freeman was also there as part of the presentation and like couldn't get his cue cards right or something. Like the presentation was a cluster. Yes, exactly.

But he got into soccer. You know, the women's World Cup was in the United States during his presidency. But like so he's, he and Nixon are the, the two that I think, and Obama, certainly, particularly of the NBA and college basketball. You know, Biden is not a huge fan. Never has been. Played football in high school was a good wide receiver, was supposed to play at Syracuse. Excuse me, at Delaware.

And got terrible grades in his parents said you can't play. Yeah. But, you know, it's like, beyond that, I don't think he cares that much. The leather helmet era. Yeah. There's a great line that Lyndon Johnson had about Jerry Ford. He said, Jerry Ford played too many games without a helmet on. Because the whole knock on Ford was that he was dumb.

And by the way, that's why Ford doesn't talk about. Ford doesn't talk about what a good athlete he is. Because he's self-conscious about being a dumb job. Yeah, yeah. Which is totally fascinating. And I think that's at least in part why people have this impression of him as, like clumsy, is because he lets that be the image of him, even though, like, Jerry Ford is, like, very, very athletic.

Yeah. Like, especially compared to the rest of the people we're talking about. Like, from Eisenhower on, I mean, he's clearly the best athlete. Did Nixon call a play for the Redskins? Yeah. He was a big Redskins fan. This is in the playoffs. Yeah.

So he, so George Allen is the coach at the time. Yes. He knows Allen through politics stuff. It's, I read a lot about this. It's never entirely clear whether he calls a play or not. He goes to a practice earlier in the season. It's apparently that they run and end around is the play. It's not clear that Nixon, like, calls it in.

You know, there's all these stories like Nixon called in it. He called George Allen on the phone. The play is run in the end of the first half of a game. The Redskins at the time are winning like a waste play. Yeah, well, they're about to go. It's actually interesting. They're about to go in for a touchdown. They're on like the 10.

and they run this play, and they're already ahead. They run this play, and it's like a 25-yard loss. And so they don't score. And they go on and lose the game. And so Nixon takes all this shit for it because it's like, well, Nixon called a terrible play, and it costs something. It's not entirely clear he, like, called it. It's like there are some people who say George Allen, like, told Nixon to tell them the run and end around because George Allen wanted that run. I think it's very much not talk about like you know three dimensional chess I think it's very much not true that Nixon called the sidelines and told George Allen to do it and George Allen did it they knew one another Nixon had been to a practice sure he could have suggested a play because again think about what we know about Nixon he's like the Uber nerd fan so yeah he's like scheming plays up like is that surprising you know it's like these guys who call in the sports talk radio like we just weren't a four three and we need to be

need to do you know it's like this like very complicated stuff because they think they know i watch all 22 and so i know exactly what everything looks like you know i think that's nixon like you know if you're willing to let he's people always say it's funny you mentioned sports radio people as i'm doing promo for the book they're like who's the president most likely to call into a sports talk radio station i'm like oh it's nixon a hundred times out of a hundred yeah he would be like dick from uh you know dick from washington you know i mean he would be calling in all the time because that's who he is like that's what you know so he'd have a pro football focus account exactly be big in a fantasy football like like all that stuff makes sense so it makes sense what we know about him

personality wise that he would do that yeah i don't know exactly i think he probably gets more blame for this idea that like in real time i mean think about it it was it was far enough ago it was the 70s it's not as though like he picked up he text george allen george allen on the sideline looked it up. Like, how would you get that call to them? You call, like, the offensive coordinator. You call RFK Stadium. The Red Fun.

Yes, can I please talk to George Allen? You know, like, there's no. So I think it's a little overblown. But I think he did probably suggest a play that, yes, that play wound up being a big loser. They're like, all right, we're running that Richard Nixon player. Over the fuck. 20, 20, 25-yard loss on an end-round. So was he the first guy, if I understand it correctly,

they used a national broadcast to get on TV during a, sporting event. Yeah. So he he does I mean the the the game of the century is broadcast on national television. Look for everything I just said about Richard Nixon being a real fan, he also understood the power and persuasive nature of sports. So Nixon's whole thing was a silent majority that there was a majority in this country who agreed with him. They were sort of on the quiet side, but that's how he would get elected. So whether it's college football that he was focused very much on throughout his life, uh, as his political life as a way to kind of reach that silent majority or, and I talk a lot about this in the book, but it's really important to Nixon bowling. Yeah, he'd bowl alone, right?

He would, he got the bowling alley put in the white house. So I always say to people like, bowling in the late 60s and early 70s was not what it is today. It was like a big deal. Like the first sponsored athlete. This is crazy to me. I found this out doing the book. The first athlete to get a company to sponsor them was a professional bowler. That's wild. Which like, I mean, it seems unimaginage. It's like a great fact to, uh, well, wow, you're very nerdy friends. But it would be, I mean, it's like a, like, how could that possibly be true? But so bowling was like a huge deal, uh, in the 60s and early 70s. He has an alley put in. Uh, and he would go, I mean, this is amazing to me. So like, he's talking to the press about this. He's like, when,

At 10 o'clock at night, a lot of nights, I go to the alley, and I bowl between seven and 12 games by myself. Like, what is the time commitment? So he's bowling by himself in, you know, that famous picture. It's in Big Lobowski of him bowling with, like, the suit on and the white shoes. That's from the White House bowling alley. And I think it's like such a powerful image of Nixon. Like he was doing it at, he was doing, it was a combo.

I think he liked bowling. He was pretty good. It was the one that the sport he was pretty good at. He rolled the roll the 229 at one point in his life. But, like, I just think he thought it was good for his politics, too. There's no question about that. Like, he thought that the silent majority, you know, white, male, rural, blue collar. That was who he thought the silent majority was, and they bowled.

So he was doing it for political reasons. But the image, as well as he enjoyed it, the image of him, you said, bowling alone. Like, that image, I just keep coming back to, like, frame. after frame at like midnight. Just slinging balls by himself. Amazing. Like, you know, and it's so telling about who the guy was fundamentally. Like, he's a loner.

He's super uncomfortable with small talk. He's not social in any meaningful way. Like, not like a president. Not at all. Like, when you think of like Barack Obama or Bill Clinton or George, George W. Bush, like people who are good at bullshitting. And I don't mean that in a pejorative way. Just good at talking.

Yeah. Good at talking to people. He's the opposite of that. He actually uses sports all the time. That's one way that Nixon uses sports to help him. He never knows how to talk to people, like on the campaign trail. He never knows what to say. He's super awkward.

I mean, if you've, you know, like you've ever seen him speak, he's an awkward speaker. He's not someone. If you were picking, like, that guy would run for president one day. He couldn't know. He would struggle now. Yeah. Although I would point out, like Ron DeSantis, if you look at Ron, not to get too modern politics, but if you look at Ron DeSantis, like, he's so awkward on the campaign drill.

I don't know how that'll wear. But like some of the stuff he does, like he walked into this diner in New Hampshire the other day. I want to get too much on a tangent, but he walks in this diner in New Hampshire and he's like, he doesn't even say hello. He's just like, okay, now what do I do? It's like a robot. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Do you see this? I did. It's just so awful. And you're like, I can't believe that this guy is like in the business of the every man eats that up. It's just crazy. Now, that said, like, if I had to go into, if we went down to a diner, whatever diner's close to here, and I had to, like, go introduce myself to every person in there. Like, I'm not sure I would, like, really love that either.

It's an awkward thing, but I also am not trying to run for president. Nixon is like that. But he uses sports and his, like, nerdy sports knowledge to, you know, he'll be like, how did you see the Yankee game the other day? You know what I mean? Like, he's able to use sports as a bridge to, because sports is one of the themes of the book is, you know, Sports is this common language that people speak, much more so than politics. And if you're a politician, you know, your, your MO is like, how can I reach people?

How can I get people to think I'm one of them? I understand them. I care about them. I'm similar to them. Even though I'm running for this like very high office, I get their life. And sports is a way to do that. We should bring back bowling as a conduit for that. Cash app.

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If you have a question about a topic we're talking about, fired off in the chat, we'll answer. We're going to be doing what we've been doing all fall every Thursday at 430 on amp. Check us out. Speaking of bowling, was that one of Obama's biggest gaffes? Yes. 2008 campaign. Totally.

37, I believe. Yes. So Obama goes to, I love this story. Obama is in, I think he's in Pennsylvania, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, sir. And he's, he goes to a bowling alley. Now, I talked to David Axelrod, his consultant about it. And they're like, we didn't expect him to actually bowl.

You know, we just thought he'd go, see some people, you know, whatever. Like, it's an event. And like, the Axelrod gets a call from the advanced guy. And the advanced guy's like, he's going to bowl. And they're like, wow, shit. You know, like that Obama's like a, he's probably in the top third of the athletes of the presidents I covered. He's, he's a good recreational athlete. He's a pretty decent basketball player. I mean, again, is he is good? He's playing pickup games with Chris Paul and LeBron and Kobe.

Like, no, I mean, he's not even, he's like maybe D3 rotational player, is what I would say. You know, I mean, he's not bad. Look, I was not a D3 rotational player. Yeah, right? Yeah, pretty good basketball. He's not a bad, and he's good in pickup because he's left-handed and he can shoot. Okay. So, but he's, so he's a, he's a pretty, like overall able athlete. But he's like, I don't think he's ever bowled before. Yeah. Right.

And, you know, like, bowling is not the world's most natural. Like, you don't have to be, just because you're a pretty good athlete, does not mean you're a great bowler. I know from experience. Right. Same. I'm like in the 30s. That's my bit.

My kids are beating me at this point. It's not great. So he, he bowls like a 30-something. Yeah. Which, again, is like, strikingly bad. Like, you know, if you. did the like between your legs roll it slow bit which you can't do when you're president but like are running for president but this is 08 and it's like it turns into a total problem for them and

axelrod is like having to handle it and like they're trying to they're trying to like get him handle that get him to stop bowling like just stop mid don't don't get a full score because a full score you can be like he shot a 37 you know what I mean otherwise you can be like he bowed a few frames he wasn't great but like who cares he left and you could just say like I got a I got to meet a constituent. You know, you can always make an excuse. But what's interesting about Obama, and I think telling is Obama is, like, fixated on how poorly he's done and, like, goes and, like, privately bowls a bunch to ensure that if he's ever in that situation again, that he won't bowl a 30. No, he will never be in that situation again.

Exactly. The poor advanced guy is probably, like, looking for jobs. He's, like, on LinkedIn, looking for jobs, you know. But like I do think that's telling about Obama like a relentless. It's why he's into golf too. Relentless like practice makes perfect perfectionism. But yeah, it's fascinating to me. I did not get into the book thinking that bowling would be like a primary theme,

but at least two of them. And George, George W. Bush duck pin bowls when he's in New Hampshire. Which growing up in Connecticut, I did a lot of duck pin bowling. And is actually Bush is like a good overall all around athlete. Like pretty good at, football, pretty good at baseball, like picks things up pretty, he reminds me of my wife,

like picks stuff up easily, like can do a lot of different stuff pretty well. Right. Natural. Right. And so he's fine at it in a way that like Obama is more of a specialty athlete. Because Obama is, by all accounts, I mean, one of the things I really tried to find out was like, how good is he at basketball? Because it's so hard. He's the president of the United States. And they only show the good, they only show the good, they only show him like making it and then like walking off. You know what I mean? And like when you're playing pick up with like former D1 guys, they go easy on you. I mean, you know, like, that's also going to serve the purpose of the association thing. Totally. I'm out here with Chris Paul. Exactly. So it's going to look better. Exactly. I mean, that's my contention. Like as a, like,

as a low D3 at best prospect in basketball, like if I played with Chris Paul, if I was on a team with Chris Paul, I'd get like five open shots. Yeah, you'd see in the corner and hit two in the corner. Totally. I mean, that's why these guys are so good. Yeah, exactly. So I think he benefited from that. But it was always hard to know he for his 40 it was his 46 birthday that could be wrong maybe his 48th birthday one of his birthdays in the 40s he has all those NBA guys and they play pickup yeah and like joe noah's there because of the Chicago connection and and and chris paul is there and coby's not playing but like halfway through Kobe calls chris paul over this is in the book and he's like i'm quoting Kobe here. He's like, you're going to let this

motherfucker walk all over you. Like, like, like you, like you, like you, like you're one of the meanest sons of bitches in the NBA. You're going to let this guy. Uh-huh. You know, and so, and then from then on, like, obviously Chris Paul tries and Obama doesn't score. You know what I mean? Like, it's a different level of thing. Yeah.

You know, but I love that story of like, because it's so telling about Kobe. Yeah. You know, like just so competitive. Very Kobe thing. Like very competitive. Like not willing. willing to give an inch. But I think Obama is a, like, if you're picking a pickup team, he's probably like a third,

fourth, or fifth pick. You know what I mean? He's not number one pick, but he's certainly not the last pick. Not a liability. No, he's not a liability at all. He doesn't play anymore because he's worried about getting, like, blown out his Achilles. Yeah, which is tough look. Yes, not great.

And, you know, Michelle Obama was very against him playing during the campaigns, which he would play all the time because they were always worried he was going to get, like, elbowed in the face or get a tooth knocked out or something. Yeah. Which never wound up happening. Axelrod told me this story about how they were playing pickup one time and he like accidentally clothes lined him. Yeah. But Obama got up and was fine.

But yeah, so he only plays golf now. Well, shit, I've been on a feel with Tom Brady in practice and it's like, don't touch that guy. Like, don't even run by him. Right, right. Don't get anywhere near him. I wonder who's got the red jersey on more. Obama.

Like, Bob Brady or Obama. You talked about golf. And obviously that's been, I mean, when it comes to sports, when you think about presidents, as far as them actually playing a sport, that's number one in my head. They all played it. And Eisenhower, when he came into office, this isn't how it was. No. What's interesting, again, it's hard because it's so long ago.

But like, you know, when Eisenhower comes in office, we've just won World War II. There's people have two things that they didn't, two things exist that didn't exist before World War II. the suburbs and free time. Yeah. I mean, I'm exaggerating a little bit, but, and the third thing, which is, like, people have a little bit of money. Yeah. Extra money.

So Eisenhower sort of, I think guides, Eisenhower and Arnold Palmer together, sort of guide the country into what you do with your leisure time and your leisure money. Right. Because people don't know. They've been living in cities. We've been fighting a world war, been fighting the Nazis. You know what I mean? Like, they're focused on other stuff, understandably.

Eisenhower plays a lot of golf. Like, you know, I always roll my eyes when people talk about how much golf Trump and Obama played, because comparatively, Eisenhower played five times as much golf. It was like a thousand days. Thousand days. I mean, it's unbelievable. Again, you talk about Nixon probably couldn't get elected president now because he's so socially

awkward. Like, Eisenhower could never play as much golf as it. Even as a military hero, he couldn't play as much golf as he did. I mean, he plays a stunning amount. But yeah, I think he in some ways, like, teaches people. people what it's like like what it's like to live in the suburbs green space this is a this is a past time the president of united states partakes you should try it and go the golf boom dates exactly toward the eyes and hour presidency and again he and palmer are really good friends palmer's from

pennsylvania palmer is much more of a blue collar guy than had ever played golf before it was very much the the like an elitist sport and had that whiff to it um palmer is like a blue collar guy you know, popular with factory workers. And golf becomes a big deal in blue collar circles. Like there are factory worker leagues and stuff, all because I think of Eisenhower and Palmer together. And they're really good friends. Palmer speaks in front of Congress about Eisenhower after Eisenhower dies.

He and his wife vacation with Eisenhower. I mean, they're friendly. The other thing that's interesting about Eisenhower is, you know, Augusta is not really Augusta when Eisenhower becomes president. Like it's a popular club, but like it's not what we think of it now, like the world's most exclusive club. I mean, maybe other than owning an NFL team, the world's most exclusive club. Right. And a lot of that is Eisenhower.

He goes there all the time. He has a cat. They build him a cabin there. Still there. Really? He paints while he's there. He plays golf. There's a tree named after.

There's a tree that he wanted taken down. I mean, this is this. I love this about Augusta. So on the 17th hole, there's a, there was, there's no longer. In 2002, I think, there was a freeze in Georgia, and it killed the tree. But for years, there's a tree on 17 in the middle of the fairway that Eisenhower hits, like, constantly. And he's an okay golfer. He's not a great golfer.

He's an okay golfer. And he petitions Augusta to have the tree taken down. Now, reminder, he's the sitting president of the United States. Yeah. And they're like, no. Yeah, we're not going to do that. Yeah. We're not going to change that.

Some things are bigger than that. I mean, so it's big, I mean, I guess it speaks to the power of Augusta. But, yeah, I mean, Eisenhower makes golf a thing that is okay to do in this country and that people do, which is very different than before he came in office. Did I hear this correctly that he had a heart attack on the course? Yes. It's crazy. So he, again, it was the 50s.

I always, let me, let me, a couple pieces of the story you'll think like, this could never happen. It's the 50s. I think it's 53. He takes yearly, he takes a several-month vacation. Several months. Yes, several months, from August to October, he takes a several-month vacation to Colorado, where he plays golf. On one of these trips, he's playing, he usually plays 36 a day.

I mean, again, this guy's a golf addict. Obviously. He's walking, yes, 36 a day. Good shape. So he's, yeah, he's a trim guy. Outitude. Yeah, exactly. Training for at altitude.

Um, he is playing, he's on like the sixth or the seventh hole. And his, his, uh, secretary of state, a guy named John Foster Dulles, who the airport is, yes, named after. John Foster Dulles, uh, is, he's trying to get in touch with them. Again, it's the 50. So he's not like calling his cell phone. He's like calling somebody who then comes out in the course and says like, he needs to talk to you. And Eisenhower is super pissed because he doesn't want to be bothered on the golf course. And there's a physician, there's a doctor who's with him.

We're either playing with them or just with him because he's the president. And the doctor says, like, you can see the veins popping out on Eisenhower's neck when when Foster Dulles' name gets mentioned. He's just like super pissed. So at the turn, again, this was the 50s. He has a hamburger with onions and bacon, like to, you know, because whatever, that's what you ate back then. Eisenhower was not on like a keto diet. And second nine, he starts, Foster Dulles is still bugging the shit out of him.

And he's just annoyed. He's like, what, you know? So they eventually talk. And Eisenhower views Foster Dulles as just being a pain in the ass, like wasting his time. Like, why did you, like, I'm trying to play golf. Like, we couldn't this have weighted this effectively. So he gets to 18 and he's not feeling good. He thinks he has indigestion.

So rather than play another 18, he just plays another 9. I mean, the guy's a golf addict. Like, you know, most of us would be like, all right, 18 is fine. I don't feel good. He'll pack it. So he's on the eighth hole, his 26th hole of the day, when he's really, really not feeling well he goes he goes back to the you know the set up the western white house that they have set up so the press corps is told at the time he just has indigestion and again it's the 50s

your your ability to you know there was no twitter to be like Eisenhower looked weak on the golf court you know there's none of that um at two o'clock in the morning they call the doctor in and they realize he's had a heart he had a heart attack earlier in the day on the golf course and they have to like now why is this interesting i mean a couple reasons but one big one is there's no 25th Amendment. So there's no presidential succession. Yeah. So, like, Nixon is the vice president,

but it's not clear that, like, Nixon would get the gig if Eisenhower was incapacitated. Who would decide that Eisenhower was incapacitated? You know what I mean? Like, there's no process in place. All that stuff comes with Kennedy and his assassination. All that stuff comes a decade later. It winds up not mattering because Eisenhower never loses consciousness.

He winds up recuperating for, like, several months at his farm in Pennsylvania and everything winds. He goes and serves two terms. He dies. his heart is bad and he dies of heart condition later in life of heart failure and he's not old but yeah it's crazy to me like that it happened that it was at least partly the result of his secretary state bugging the crap out of him uh uh but yeah i mean certainly the closest we've come other than regan's assassination to a president dying in office and he was a good poker player as well

he was he was really into cards um he played poker he he he he he he he he He earned enough money playing poker to buy his, Mamie, his future wife's ring. That's what paid for that ring, his poker winning. He gets really into after, I don't know why he switches, but he's a very good poker player. But after college, after the Navy, he switches to, or the army, excuse me, he switches to bridge and gets really,

really into bridge and plays bridge at, like before a bunch of battles of World War II. Like it's a way to calm himself down. And talk about how you can go deep on anything. So I type in like Eisenhower. I'm just like interested like that he played bridge. So I type in Eisenhower and Bridge into Google like as part of like years ago when I'm doing the research for the book.

And there's all these great articles written by guys who work for like the war college, the naval war college. And you know, they're like military historians that bridge is the game that most approximates war in that. I don't really play, but like you have to signal to you, to your, the guy on your team across from you. And like, how much do you tell them?

Because that then gives information to your, your opponent's across from you. And, you know, you can bluff and give your, your, you're the guy with you bad information to so that they take that bad information. But just that the stratigry, if you will, totally is is very similar. Yeah. In it, which I thought was totally fascinating. I like that S&L illusion. to the strategy. Strategry?

Thank you. Yeah, yeah, I do what I can. Unfortunately, I usually say it. I've, I've, I've been saying it more than strategy lately. But yeah, so he gets really into bridge, which, and the whole, like, bridge as war training is totally interesting to me.

And there's tons of great, says there's some stuff in the book, but there's a ton of great stuff about it. So where was it, you know, like with gambling in the presidency? I mean, like, were these guys gamblers, they were playing, and who were at the tables gambling with them? Any interesting people are just,

other political. Other political types largely. Again, I think the presidency is a very insulated life. Yeah. And so you're not putting a ton of trust in people from the outside. Right. You know, it's like Obama. Obama, who was Obama's friendship inner circle?

The people he had been friends with for decades. Because it's like, you know, adding new friends when you're the president is a loaded. Totally. Acquisition. Yeah. You just don't know what they want. from you. You know, you want to be with people who you've known forever. So it's usually those

kind of people. But I do think they were, particularly with golf, really into gambling, because, again, to get back to where we started, these are competitive as hell people. You know what I mean? Like, these are people who are like really into competition, into winning, into beating people. There's a great story. I love this story about the elder Bush. So Jim Nance and the elder Bush are very tight. Very tight. Like, Nance is like an unofficial son.

Like, they very close. Closer than I, I talked to Nance for the book. And like, closer than I knew. And, uh,

Nance is playing golf one time with Bush. It's like one of the first times he ever played with him. And he's like, Bush is proposing the, like the bet. Yeah. And he's like a dollar, a hole or something.

And Nance is like very hesitant because he doesn't know if like, a dollar means like a grand. You know. You know what I mean? Like, and he realizes over time that Bush means like legit a dollar. So like, you know, the most you can lose is 18 bucks. This is a former president of the United States. You know, he's got money.

Yeah. But I love that story about Bush because he was, you know, like, if you're looking for a good sport, if you want your kid, you want to find somebody who like you can point to as who was a president who was a good sport and a pretty good athlete, like George H.W. Bush is the guy. What about sports gambling? Yeah. Was there any trace of guys betting on? game? Not really, but and I think

Who would be most likely if you... Nixon for sure. I mean, I hate to keep saying Nixon, but like, he was just the most into sports. You know, like, and like, as we learned, he had like a degenerative. He had a, he had a movable line as it related to legality. Yeah. To put it nicely. Yeah, Nixon. I think, I mean, I think part of the issue was, like, sports gambling then versus sports gambling now. I mean, now it's like, you know, it's on your phone. Take two seconds. You can bet on it whether the pitch is a ball or a strike.

You know, back then. Are you allowed to gamble as a president? Like, from a legality standpoint? It's a good question. I don't know the answer to. I would say in practical terms, it doesn't matter because there's no way in hell you can. Yeah. Like, whether you would legally be, there may not be a legal ruling on whether it's not

like professional sports or like you can't gamble on, like, professional sports. You work for the NFL. You can't gamble on the NFL. I don't know if there's a specific law or rule about it, but there's no way in hell any president would be caught gambling. No. I mean, I think they even downplay.

Biden wouldn't know how to work draft. Right, right, exactly. They doubt, they even, they even downplay now, like that they bet on golf,

you know, because I think it's funny because gambling is such a huge part now. But I think for presidents, there's still an element of like, it's not something that a president wants to be involved. Since we're on vices, I just have to ask. I mean,

any of them smoke? vices. Oh, marijuana? Yes, Bill Clinton. I mean, yeah,

but he didn't inhale. Right? None. I mean, Obama has admitted to doing cocaine. Okay. Bill Clinton,

pot. Beyond that, not really. W. Bush cocaine, right? W. Bush cocaine. That's right. That's right.

When he was like in his drinking days. At least 20 years ago or whatever the quote was. I think that's probably it. Now, admitted to versus did is a whole. George Bush.

It's a whole. Fucking hilarious. You know what's interesting about Bush is, so he's real into endurance sports. Younger Bush, I just said W. Bush. He's real into endurance sports, mountain biking, running. And there's a great story of, for his 40th birthday, he gets hammered. This is when he was still drinking. And he goes out and running the next day.

And he basically has this revelation, according to him, he has this revelation about, like, I can't keep doing this. Like, I got to choose one or the other. I've had those. You had that really. Swetting it out. Then you go back. He did not go back. I do think there is a, Bush has an addictive, Bush younger has an addictive personality for sure. And I think he uses running, I think he uses, he does these like mountain bike.

When he's president, they mountain bike in 110 degree. He can Crawford, Texas. I think he uses that as a substitute, like for his addictive personality. I think it's like, it's a. stand in for drinking. A lot of people drugs. Yeah. It's his way to sort of cope.

And he makes a big thing out. And, you know, he brings a treadmill on Air Force One. I mean, he's like real, yeah. He's real committed to running. No way. Yeah, so like when they're flying to Japan or whatever for some meetings, he's like running on Air Force One. Do they all sit there on Sundays and watch games?

I think it depends who it is. NFL fans? You probably in Red Zone? guys guys? I would say Biden probably not. I don't think he's a huge fan. He claims to be an Eagles fan. Yeah, he's ostensibly an Eagles fan, right?

He has to be. Red, I don't think he has a choice from given where he's from. And his wife is like a legit Eagles fan. Obama, yes, for sure. Obama's into sports, like sports, watch the Sports Center, watch his part in the interruption, like is into sports. Bush Young. Yes.

Bush Elder, yes. Nixon for sure. And then before that, there's not like Sports Center. You're watching like Warner Wolf do highlights. You know what I mean? Like it's, yeah.

But yeah, those guys, I think yes. I think Biden is the, and Trump, by the way, I skip Trump. Trump,

for sure. Yeah. Trump is very into sports. You know, like whether it's trying to own teams or just follow it, he's very into sports and watches a ton of golf.

So let's dive in. into Trump in sports because, you know, like in my experience as an athlete, we definitely overlapped on some issues and the White House and that sort of thing. But his first foray really into professional sports was, uh, was, was the USFL. So USFL is really interesting. And if you've not read it, there's a book by a guy named Jeff Pearlman. Yeah, I know, uh, or friend, uh, love him. A friend of the program. Love him. Uh, he, and he's got a new book about Bo Jackson, which I'm psyched for. He actually, I did a book festival this weekend.

He read like two in front of me, so I missed it, which I was pissed about because I don't know him. So like Bo didn't want to talk to him because Bo doesn't talk to people. Like Bo, you know, for one thing, he's got the hiccup. That's right. He still got, yeah. But Bo doesn't talk to people? He doesn't do like press.

He's quieter. You know, and, you know, I think when Perlman was going to write a book that looked like an autobiography, but it wasn't quite because Boe wasn't getting the access. it wasn't like an anti-pearlment or an anti-book thing. It was just like, hey, I'm not interested. But I remember Jeff was like, hey, can you talk to your dad and see if Beau? Oh, right. I didn't even think of that.

I was like, I don't think it's going to happen. But yeah, I'm looking forward to reading that. Yeah. So anyway, his book about the USFL, there's so much good Trump stuff in it. Yeah. And it's so telling. And I used, I cribbed a bunch of it for my, I mean, with credit, but for my book. So Trump gets into the USFL ostensibly,

because he wants to support a league that is an alternative to the NFL and they play in the spring. Yeah. And there's these quotes from him as he gets in, like, I don't think that we should compete with the NFL, like fall football is that's their thing. This is before the NFL is the juggernaut that it is today, right? I think that's probably fair. You might know better than me. But like, and the NFL is still a big deal.

It was very viable, but this is an immovable object. Right. Like the idea now, it's like the USFL and the XFL are not like, we're going to take the NFL down. No, we're just going to catch the school. Exactly right. So the USFL, I think, was positioned to be a more credible alternative at the time. So Trump comes in and he is told by Pete Roselle, the commissioner at the time, he keeps, he wants an NFL team badly. He wants a New York NFL team or New Jersey.

And he's told by Pete Roselle, you will never have a team. You know, Roselle just doesn't like him. Doesn't want him involved. He doesn't think he's the kind of person who should be involved. Good instincts. Trump, Trump, of course. Right.

Trump hears that as, so you're saying there's a chance. You know what I mean? Like, classic Trump, like here's whatever he wants to hear. So he goes, he spends the next six to nine months,

essentially trying to convince all the USFL owners that what he has just said, which is competing with the NFL is non-viable, to we need to compete with the NFL, NFL or we're not, we're a joke league. Like that, that your legacy is going to be you were a beta, essentially, that you were on, you were on the second tier league. The whole thing is entirely cooked up so that Trump can get an NFL team.

His theory is, we go, we compete against them. The NFL eventually kind of capitulates and says, we'll take a few of you these teams in. And the rest of you will go bankrupt, but we'll take a few of these teams in and we'll, one of them will be the New Jersey generals Donald Trump's team Doug Flutie Herschel Walker Like what happened with the ABA Like with the ABA and the NBA

Exactly right So that's his working theory But what he does is he winds up driving it into They sue the NFL over antitrust issues The USFL essentially it's a monopoly You know like you you can't control the entire sport Through this one organization This one privately held organization blah blah

They win But it's Trump is Trump The lawyer for the NFL, there's quotes about this in the book, and they're from Perlman's book. The lawyer for the NFL essentially makes Trump the whipping boy for the USFL. He puts Trump out as like, the guy. Like, you want this guy? And so even though the USFL wins the case, they win a dollar in the settlement, which because they've switched to the fall bankrupt some.

And so the USL ceases to exist. So like there's a real case to be made that Donald Trump bankrupts the USFL. Like, you did. They're, they're, the USFL is like, at that time viable. Yeah.

As a spring league. They're getting crowds. You know, they're in Birmingham. They're in Tampa Bay. Like, you know, they're in a lot of,

actually a lot of places where the USFL now is. But, you know, they had Herschel Walker, Heisman trophy, you know, they were real, it wasn't like it is now

where you're like, I've never heard of any of the guys on these teams. There were real people in the USFL. Not a ton, but enough. There was some star power. And Trump just, drives it in the ground because he thinks he's,

despite Roselle telling him, he'll never get a team, he thinks he's getting a team. And also, a well-known cheater in golf? Yeah, so Rick Riley has literally written the book on this. It's called Commander and Cheat, which is a great title. If you have not read it, I would recommend you read it.

So Trump, my favorite sort of Trump cheating has to do with club championships. Yes. So he has claimed to win, I think it's like 13. by this point, 13 club championships. Like four senior,

these are all at Marlago, like four senior championships and nine, like, little legit, like regular championships. So I asked all these people, like, how the hell does he do this? Because, like, many things with Donald Trump, he is actually a quite good golfer. He's not as good as he says. Yeah, he's like a six or an eight handicap. Like, he's good.

For a 76-year-old. And I talk to this guy who works for golf magazine and he he said like you can tell that Trump spends all of his time focused on hitting drives far that's that's his mark that's his mark of a good golfer which like

could that be any more on brand you know what I mean like he didn't care about the chipping and putting yeah don't worry about all that stuff like focus on the hitting it far and actually like a month or two ago he's at Turnberry in Scotland and he hits a drive allegedly 280 and he turns to the press and he says, you think Biden could hit a drive 280?

Which is just like so. Biden also, by the way, a pretty good golfer. It doesn't play anymore. But no, yeah, no. I'm not sure Trump hit it 280. Anyway. So I'm talking to all these people about the club championships thing because it just strikes me as weird.

And they say there's two basic ways that Trump wins club championships. One, he buys the club, plays the first round, and declares himself the club champion. which, you know, like anyone who's a member of a country club or been to a country club knows that's not how that works. Or two, he finds out what the club champion shot to win.

And if he ever shoots below that, he declares in any round, not in a tournament format in any round, he declares himself the champion. So this past year, he said that he won the senior championship at Marlago. And I was like, I couldn't figure out why, like, something was like itching at me. and I couldn't figure out like what I could. I was trying to remember. And I remembered that it's a two-day tournament, a Saturday and a Sunday. The Saturday, he was at an event in South Carolina, like doing a political event, like a much

publicized political event. So I was like, how the hell did that happen? And what happened was that people come show up the next day. They played the first round. They show up the next day. And Trump's name is at the top of the leaderboard, despite the fact that he hadn't been there. And they're like, you know, that's sort of odd. And what he did is he used a score that he.

he had shot like two weeks prior and said, this is my first round. And so he used that score and then went on the win. So again, it's like, you know, a bunch of them. Bill Clinton cheated at golf, you know, he'd move with billigans. Like he'd hit a bunch of mulligans. Lyndon Johnson, like, just talk about not giving a shit.

Lyndon Johnson would just hit like eight or nine balls at one time. Like literally just didn't care. Like just could care less. Like, didn't matter who he was playing with. It was just balls everywhere. Like until he hit one he liked. But Trump's is like really well thought out. It's not like, oh, winter rules kick the ball like four feet.

I mean, I think he does that too. It's like deep psychological stuff. But yeah, he definitely cheats it golf. And he said he was a pro-level baseball player, but supposedly people looked up his... Totally right. So he has said many times over he was the best high school baseball player in New York, which is just like simply not true. Just like the lie is just five.

Yeah, like you're just best baseball player in New York. Yeah. Yeah, there's a bunch of his box scores public available. I talked to people who played with him. He's a super aggressive, again, like none of this will surprise you at all. Like as in sports as in life, right? He's a super aggressive hitter who's big. I mean, he's big. Trump is like 6364. He's like a big guy.

Pretty good hitter. Played first base. They never really care about fielding or anything like that. But the idea that he is the best baseball player in New York is just like totally. The bad average was what, like 200? Two something. Yeah. Like he is clearly not the best baseball player in New York.

Again, he's not a, it's not that he's not a good baseballer. He's like a pretty serviceable high school baseball player. He just be like all the other presidents and just be a pretty good athlete. Right. He's a pretty good athlete who's a very good golfer, I would say. But he's got to be the best. But he's obsessed with winning and always being the best. Not actually winning.

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but the best quality out there. Head on over to Oakley.com, O-A-K-L-E-Y, for more information today. When we won, and we won the Super Bowl in New England in 2016, and then Philly in 2017, I had ruffled some feathers so I can go to the White House because I don't like him, you know, and who's to say, I don't know if I've ever said this publicly.

I don't know that he'd be the only president that I'd skip because I'm just not terribly politically inclined for a lot of the reasons we've talked about because a lot of the people, you know, hosting you are not people you'd want in your circle. Well, and they're using your fame and your celebrity. I mean, that's the other thing you've got to realize. They're using you.

They're there because they think it's good for them. And the general public. They're not doing it out of the kindness of their heart. Yeah, and the general public hook line and sinker is like, this is a real opportunity. It's a special event. You can go eat McDonald's at the White House. Yeah, right. Burger King, Chick-fil-A.

And that kind of spiraled a little bit. I can remember the second year there were a core group of us who weren't going in Philly. I remember the Eagles. And it was kind of a developing thing and like to take people inside behind the curtain. Like we held a meeting, myself, Malcolm, and a bunch of guys who weren't going. We were like, listen, no one's going to judge you if you go. This is just our personal, you know, this is where we stand and we're not going to go to the White House. But we don't want you to think as leaders of this team that like if somebody goes to the White House,

we still recognize the tremendous opportunity. Right. You're not going to be like, I can't believe you did that. Yeah. Right. But the guys decided that, hey, just we're not going. I don't think people felt terribly inclined to go anyways. And then on top of it, the political climate was a big time off.

Yeah, this was 2017. 2017. And in the midst of all that, there were protests, there were protesting players, there was the Charlottesville deal, which hit close to home for me. So anybody's wondering, besides the debates where I kind of made up my mind on this guy, you know, like that was where for me, I was like, I fucked this guy. That's right, because Charlottesville had happened. Yeah, I mean, August of 2017. I was in training camp for the Eagles. And I can remember sitting in my car and thinking, you know, here we are.

we're in such need of a calming voice, not Kingsford on the fire here. Homer Simpson on the barbecue. Yeah, and we got the Homer Simpson on the barbecue, and I was just so disappointed. Long story short, all that culminates with these protesting players, and I can remember to get these sons of bitches off the field and the whole thing.

Needless to say, as an athlete, I wasn't a fan of him. As a person, I wasn't a fan of him. but we weren't the first group that didn't go to the White House. I mean, there was Tim Thomas. Tim Thomas, goalie for the Bruins. And there was Matt Burke, I believe.

I don't want to slander him. And Larry Bird. Larry Bird in 83 did he skip. Reagan. And there's a quote in the book, which is remarkable to me. I don't think, so I don't know that he did.

Tim Thomas was definitely for political reasons. I don't know if Bird skipped for political reason. I don't think he did. He's not super political. But the quote in the book is, amazing. He says, Reagan knows where to find me. If Reagan wants me,

knows where to find me, which is like an amazing quote. Pretty balsy. Yeah. And in fact, you guys weren't even the first team because the Warriors, Steph Curry,

had won in 2016. And Steph had said, I'm not going. And the next, Trump did this very similar thing that he did with the Eagles. The next day, he said,

well, you're not invited. And so, and he did the same thing with the Eagles. It was like, when a clear number were not going,

he said, you're disinvited. I mean, you know what it reminded me of? It reminded me of my eighth-grade girlfriend where I was like, I got word that she was going to break up with me. So I was calling her to try to break up with her first. You're dumped. I did that with my current wife in college and it actually worked out.

Like we got back together. But that's the oldest trick in the book. But the bottom line is, you know, that White House thing has become and will continue to become a lightning rod. Especially if he's back in the White House. I mean, yeah, I mean, there's going to be this whole song. and dance every year. And I just wonder where you think that whole thing's going.

I mean, I do think it, I think it's, your perspective is probably useful on this. So I wonder what you think. But I still remember Michael Jordan saying, Michael Jordan was asked why he didn't take political positions. And he said, you know, very famously, like Republicans buy sneakers too. Right. Fast forward from that to LeBron wearing an I can't breathe warm up shirt. So to you guys saying, you know what?

Like, we're not going to just go. You know, like I don't agree with the guy. I'm not going to be seen with the guy. Like, you know, and it's a personal choice. Like I'm not saying the whole team shouldn't go. I'm personally not going to go. I think that athletes have realized their political power in ways in the last, call it 10 to 15 years that we are in much more of an athlete age than we were 20 or 30 years

ago when it was like, well, if the owner says you have to go, then you have to go. So it was like indentured servitude versus now, you realize the power that you have as a professional athlete. I also believe, and I keep coming back to social media on a lot of issues, and I think it's bad in a lot of ways, and it's accelerating our course for like a collision here in this country. But as athletes, I think the access to all your fans, the vehicle to deliver your point of view, which everybody else has. Of course, you're a human being on Earth. Like a carpenter can talk about politics, but I can't because carpentry is somehow more elevated. You being good at sports is not a disqualifier.

It's not disqualifying. And, you know, I don't think my opinion is any better than anybody else, but when I had access to it, I would voice things. And as time goes on, you naturally just become embroiled in all these conversations because you have that access point. And I think as time goes on, that shapes your opinion on what you do in scenario A or B. Of course, how you behave. Because you're in those conversations.

And, you know, your conversations are more visible. And I do think social media and athletes having a vehicle to get their point across gives them equity in certain spaces that will dictate their movements in the future. And so, like, for me, if I'm going to talk about certain things, then I can't be doing certain things that are, I don't know what the word would be, that, that counter my positions. And so, like, you got to behave in a certain way. You got to stand on what you believe in. And I think the more athletes talk about what they believe in, then their actions are going to follow in some direction. But I don't think every athlete has realized or is interested in the power that, you know.

And so I think, you know, Michael Jordan, if he played today, might still take a Michael Jordan stance. And I have no problem with that. I think one of the biggest issues we had during the last couple years when it became really prominent that athletes were speaking out is this attitude of if you don't say something, you're complicit, which is, and I'm sure at some point I've echoed that sentiment in a clumsy way or whatever, but I do believe that if you have something to say, you should say it. If you don't, don't.

Not everybody has to be interested in this game. Right, not everybody, right. And for me, it wasn't political. For me, it was about how he made me feel as an American. Because at the end of the day, I'm still an American, and I want to have pride in where I grew up and where I live and where I raised my kids. And he did not make me feel proud. And he's still. doesn't. Now that's not to say that Clinton did, and I was a kid. It's not to say that George Bush and some of the missteps he had made me proud. It's not to say that I agree with everything Obama ever did. But what it is to say is that that guy just, he made my skin crawl and I'm not going to be in a room with him the year that we reached the highest high-

Right. To celebrate something that you, that's not something I want to share with the guy. Right. And I do think it's complicated. I think sports and politics will continue to intersect, but I do think that athletes should feel that they have a choice. You don't have to get in these arenas. But I do think, I do think that some of this is Trump, but I do think athletes have become more politicized. I think people look to athletes more now than ever before for their opinions on stuff. And I think, I think you're right. I mean, I think it's like, athletes are no different than the rest. They happen to be better at sports,

but they're no different than the rest of the culture. Some people are really interested in politics. Some people, I mean, I'm sure your teammates. Some of them just don't care. Yeah. It's just like,

you know, it's like people I run into on the street. Some people are like, I watch you on MSNBC and I subscribe to your newsletter. And I love those people. Yeah. Like, don't get me wrong.

Those people are great. Political junkies. But there's lots of people, including people I'm related to, like my wife who's like passively interested, kind of because of what I do for a living. But you know, and it's like, but I do think that that we are in an age and I think it's a good thing where athletes have started to realize their own power. Yeah.

More. And it is social media. You have direct access, right? You don't have to like go through the team to release a statement or anything like that. You cut the middleman out. Right. But I think that's a good thing because I think we did live for a long time in this like indentured servitude vibe. Yes.

Where you worked for the team. team, you were a company man. And if you weren't a company man, they got rid of you. And like, to me, that is incredibly short-sighted and unfair to the players in that you don't give up your presence as a citizen of the country and as of the world because you're good at sports. No, that sounds like, you know what I mean? Like, no one, it's your point.

Nobody expects that out of any other profession. Exactly. You know what I mean? It's not like, oh, you're an architect. Well, you certainly can't have an opinion on Trump versus Biden. Yeah. No one expects that. Yeah.

And these are people with real platforms and real followings. Yeah. Now, I think it's hard. I would get, it's probably hard for some of them who are, like Tom Brady doesn't strike me as terribly political. No. Trump tried to rope him in.

So not, probably so not political, they threw the hat on. Right. You know? Right. Just doesn't get it. The ironic part is like,

we associate Tom with all these ideals that, you know, that probably are very conservative and he's a Trump fan, but more often than not, like in a situation. Just happen to be there and somebody handed him a hat. I believe he was playing golf with Trump. And the thin line with Trump was five years ago, you could rub elbows with Trump.

Totally. You know, what's the show where he fires everybody? The apprentice. Yeah, he's on celebrity roast. You've got these comedians who are now, they're left leaning and they hate Trump, but five years ago. And that just reinforces the fact that, like,

everything's okay until you're running the country. Yeah. So you're the actual president of the United States. And the ledge that somebody like Tom Brady might not have identified was that, hey, that was his hat, which didn't exist before he was running, but his gear, his association. Yeah, playing with him, playing in a for some with them. It just changed very fast.

I think for people who, like Tom, who are maybe at best naive, that did not make the association. No. I'm not caping for Tom if he disagrees with me. But what I am saying is that sometimes we get, we get overly focused on those little connection. Belichick is the same way. It's like, oh, Belichick is a Trump guy.

It's like, I don't know about that. And then after January 6th, everybody, everybody kept their distance. No, I think it's a good thing that athletes have a microphone now because you can clear it up. You can. You can say like, look, this is my. And Brady has done that. Like he's come out and said like, look, I'm not super political. I'm not like, you know, I think he's more focused on like growing his own business and brand than he is on like the country, which again, by.

By the way, is his right? Yep. You know what I mean? Like that's his freedom. That's his. And I think one thing that I did want to mention thinking through this as an exercise, like is it good or bad for athletes to have this entry point? Like there's a lot of black athletes in this country who, unfortunately, if you look

at industries where we have representation from people with different neighborhoods, different backgrounds than me or you, like a lot of those foremost representatives, are in sports. Yep. And so, like, you know, you want to go to Hollywood? Well, it's just a bunch of white people. And, you know, you want to go to the business world? Like, well, we've gate kept a lot of these industries.

And, you know, I think when it comes to athletics, like, we are going to be disproportionately represented by a lot of African American, you know, leaders in the NFL. And, like, it's 70% black league. So, you know, I think having that entry point for a white athlete's a little bit different, I think in white America, than, you know, it's a lot. for like black America who's looking at some of these guys and gals like well you're what we got you know we need your voice right right you're a leader in the community yeah and i'm not saying that there aren't great black leaders and other industries but i do think like the diversity factor

that we have in the NFL and in the NBA like all right you want to hear how the rest of america lives with these guys and gals grew up in different situations and so i think their voices is more needed and i think i actually think liberal brawn is a really good example of that like someone who gets it, like gets the fact that, you know, the famous Dennis Rodman, like, I'm nobody's role model. Like I think LeBron gets, or maybe that was Barclay. Barclay, right, which is so funny now that it was Barclay because I think he's back into being a role.

Right. He gets it much more now. But I think LeBron like intuitively sort of understands the role that he is to play. And I mean, again, I think I always just, I just contrast. And they're different people, to your point, they're different people. They're different people, but I do contrast, like, what LeBron has said and done in the positions he's taken on political issues. Yeah. Including on Trump.

Yeah. Versus, like, what Jordan did. I mean, Jordan was sort of a non-factor during the Reagan administration by his own admission. Now, it may just be the different people. And if LeBron had been around back then, maybe he would have been taken. But I do think there is this understanding that you have the ability now, and in some cases, the responsibility to, speak out. And again, we live in a sort of monoculture now. I mean, that's part of what the book is about. Like, it used to be, it was like, I don't want my politics and my sports to mix. You know what I mean?

Like, if you're a good athlete, I don't want to hear about sports. If you're a politician, I don't want to hear, I don't want to hear about politics. You're a good politician. I don't want to hear about sports. And I think we now live in this monoculture where it's like pop culture, you know, uh, uh, sports, politics. It's all, it's all in the same lane. Yeah. Like there's no, there's no silos anymore. It's all in the same lane. Politicians have views about sports, athletes have views about politics.

And so I actually think that's a good thing. I think this sort of silo thing was like unfair to the average person who has a variety of interests. There's nobody you meet who's all, like if the only thing you could ever talk about was your professional football playing days, you'd be a boring guy. No one would listen to this podcast.

You know what I mean? Like if all I could talk about was politics or not. Ronald Reagan or Richard Nixon would have listened. He would have listened. He would have loved it. But if all I could talk about was politics or all I cared about was politics, like, you know, it's fine, but, you know, most people are a little bit more nuanced than that. No question. And they have a variety of interest.

And I think this at least recognizes sports and politics are not so different. Yeah. The same kind of people are drawn to it. The same kind of traits succeed. The same kind of people watch it and consume it. Also, what we deem as political, as far as a topic is concerned, is oftentimes predicated on what's pissing us off. You know, so like politics have been a part of sports for many years in a lot of ways,

maybe not as a decade straight line as it is today. But, you know, you talk about like some of the military posturing, some of the, in the NFL today, I mean, like with their salute to service stuff, that's inherently a little bit political. I would say more than a little bit. Yes. It's a recruiting tool. It's they're paying. There's money being exchanged.

the whole thing. You know, I think now it's just we're getting into the nitty-gritty of some of the policies. And also we're hearing from people that we haven't heard it from before. Which is good. It's a good thing. I mean, more voices is good. I mean, I think one of the problems we suffer from, and like, look, I still think this is true. I keep coming back to the fact that we are very likely to see an 80-year-old nominee

for one party and a 76-year-old nominee for another party, both of whom have run for president multiple times before. I mean, remember, Biden, that was 2000. and this is his third run for president, right? He lost twice before, 88 in 2008. That book about the 88 election is so good. What it takes? God, it's so good.

I got to read it. It's Richard Ben Kramer, who wrote a great biography of DiMaggio, too. And was actually, he died, was writing an A-Rod book, which I would have loved to read. But it's called What It Takes. It's about the 88 campaign. If you want to know about, just what I would recommend to people is like, it's a huge book. It's like a doorstop. It's like, you know,

yeah, 850 pages. It's like the Ulysses S. Grant book that Rosillo's Sunday. Yes. Didn't you have to drop out for like plagiarism? He did. He had to drop out for plagiarism.

He plagiarized a, he plagiarized a British politician. Oh, that's fine. Name Neil Kinnock. No way. Yes. But like,

just read the Biden sections. Yeah. Because it's like, I mean, first of all, it's amazing that a book written about the 88 campaign is telling in 20, right,

25 years later, 35 years later. Yeah. But, the Biden sections are fascinating because Richard Ben Kramer and Biden, the author and Biden were tight. And so there's so much good Biden stuff

on there. I want to ask you about this because it just popped up and we're talking about Biden with the whole Angel Reese thing. I had a theory. We had a theory that when Jill Biden came out and said, hey, Iowa's in Biden. Bring them both. I think they're trying to win Iowa.

Interesting. Could be. I mean, that was always the speculation when Obama would pick brackets. The speculation was always that he would pick like swing state. Yes. Is that like UNC? Do you subscribe to that theory? I don't think Iowa is winnable.

So, yeah. I mean, they could be trying, but I don't think it matters. Hail Mary. Yeah. Well,

because it was everything in these, you know, we, we, everything on, online and everything is these, these political corners. And it almost feels like when there's a sports issue

where there's two people or teams, it's like, you know, we're going to go over in this corner. And Iowa was like middle America. white girl. White girl. You know, and LSU was this brash, young African-American woman who's who's playing the game her way. I'm playing it like a lot of white athletes played it, but you could feel it. A media is like, okay, we're going to fight about this and it's going to be through

an identity lens. It's going to be through a political lens. Pretty big gaffe. And then and then when Jill came out and took the other side of that seemingly, she didn't realize either how inflammatory it was going to be or she was doing it for those reasons i think she probably was like doing the both teams are winners like i actually don't give her too much credit i don't i don't think that there was i mean i could be wrong but i don't think there was a huge amount she certainly didn't think it was going to create what it created yeah uh i don't think there was a tremendous amount of like for planning i could be wrong about that i think she did she amazingly violated two taboos, gender and race, right?

Because it's like the whole like, well, with men, you would never be like, let's bring the losing team in. It felt like, like with girls, it's like, or with the women's team, it's like, well, it's fine. Everybody were going to have orange slices afterward. Like, patronized. Totally. Totally. And I get that. Yeah.

I don't think she meant all of that with, I think she was trying to, I think she genuinely was like, that was an exciting game to watch. It would be fun. online. If you're online, you have this cynical filtering system for everything that comes into your brain, like she would have immediately realized if she had race and gender, bat, bat, bat, bat, totally. Yeah, totally. People have been arguing about this all day. Did Barack, when he played pickup with UNC and then they win North Carolina by like a percentage of a point? Very close. Do you think that actually factors in this intentional? I talk to a guy who wrote a book called The Audacity of Hoop, which is a great, yeah, great name. His contention is that

Obama won Iowa, and remember in that year he won Indiana too, barely, barely, that they played a ton of three-on-three games with supporters throughout North Carolina and Indiana, and that that made a difference. And look, I can actually buy that in this regard. Obama's biggest struggle was that he was seen as exotic. Yeah. Right? He was a, he was a guy with a Kenyan father, a white mother from Kansas. He grew up in Hawaii with his grandparents.

He lived in, he lived in Indonesia. Like his background is all like foreign, foreign, different other, right? And even though he's so fucking normal, he's such an American thing. And by the way, I should mention his name is also Barack Hussein Obama. Like all of those things, all of those things added up to people being like, I don't know about this guy. And so I can buy that a guy. who you can play pickup basketball with.

I mean, my contention, I'm sure this is true for you in your life. Like, sports are very revealing. If I need to know what someone's like, if I can play an hour of pickup basketball with them, I could give you a pretty decent sense of what they're like. It might not be perfect, but it'll be close to the mark. I think this idea that Obama, it was like very regular guy. It was like, he plays basketball.

He's like us. So look, when you win by 0.1%, who the hell knows what it is, That's the thing that puts you over the top. But it can't have hurt. I don't think there's any way it hurts. And I think it is, Alexander Wolf is a guy who wrote the book, Odessia of Hoop. And I think he makes a really good point about, like, look, they're the two most basketball

crazy states in the country. So it's hard to dismiss the fact that he played a bunch of pickup basketball in these states, and he won those states. States that a Democrat had won in 35, 40 years. And I've never said this on this podcast. I don't think I've said this publicly, but I met Obama. I got to spend 45 minutes with him, sat there and talked to him. sat there and talked to him, me and a couple teammates.

This was after he was president. And I got the, you know, again, I don't agree with every damn thing. You know, so people want to loophole you into all these ideologies. But I just so enjoyed talking to him. It was just so down to earth. Yep. He could have a beer with you. Yep.

He could shoot the shit with you. He could play pickup basketball with you. You could just tell. And it's that magnetism. He was, he had, again, it's like the anti-Nixon. he had the like he had that like common touch yeah Clinton had it George W. Bush had it it's not you know it's not one party doesn't dominate it but yeah and again I do look I keep coming back to it but I really do think the ability to talk sports yeah and to understand the role

that sports plays in American culture is a part of that like Obama very famously would watch Sports Center rather than cable news yeah like you know there that's telling that's that's revealing that's what most people do. Yeah. Most people are not, I mean, look, you can tell by the cable news ratings. Most people are not watching cable news at night. They're watching something else.

They're watching Survivor or they're watching live sports or they're watching some show on Netflix. Something that numb my mind, not set it on fire. Right. Exactly. You know, and I think that he was good. He was very good at coming across despite his background as an average guy, which, by the way, we talked about this off camera, but I think it's true.

Like, Donald Trump. is good at that. Yeah. People think Donald Trump is a regular guy. And he does it. It's actually because he's more irregular than Obama. Much more so. Identity out of it. Raised raised, raised in significant wealth father made him a million dollar gift as a 20 year old, you know, young 20s. The same people that call me and, you know, that scream nepotism because I got drafted number two in the draft, which by the way you got to earn. They love this guy. I was never given a million dollars. Right. Right. I've everything I have. Right.

It's just crazy the mental gymnastics people will do to make this work. They will. And it is remarkable to me. I think the greatest trick Donald Trump ever pulled was in the 2016 election was to be, to make himself the voice of the every man. Like it's stunning to me. Like this is a guy whose whole brand is built on gold, everything. His hotels cost $1,200 a night to stay in.

I think a lot of it was aspirational. The appeal it was like Trump's pitch was essentially like, I'm rich. I have a good looking wife. life, I can say and do whatever I want. Vote for me and you'll be like me. There's definitely that element to it. And people were like, yeah, I want that. I want that. I want that. I want that. I want to, I kind of want to finish. We've been all over the place with, with JFK, because very interesting, the juxtaposition between this, like, he looks like a jock. He kind of embodies that. Totally. But he was essentially, and I don't mean this pejoratively, but he was kind of a cripple by the

100% because of his back injuries. He's, so we talked a lot about sports and perception, Reagan and like, you know, that sort of stuff. JFK is like the classic example of that. So Camelot is obviously a creation, right? This idea that like he and his wife are super happy and they got these great looking kids and they're the all-American family. Sports is a big part of that. So, you know, when you think of JFK, most people, and if I say JFK in sports, they'll either say sailing or they'll say football. Most of them will say touch football.

Yeah. you know, most of the time he was like incapacitated. Right. He could barely play. He played one year at Harvard. And interestingly enough, so he had a really bad back. One of the theories about why his back was so bad is that after a game at Harvard, one of his family friends tackled him from behind jokingly and hurt his back.

Damn. That's like one of the working theories of why his back was so, so bad when he was like 20. I kind of believe in the curse with that family. Yeah. I mean, it's hard not to when you look at their life. Oh, my God. Um, so he was infirm. I mean, like he was, he was not a healthy man.

Um, interestingly enough, JFK is a really good golfer, but they downplay how much golf he plays because they don't want him to be seen as an elitist. I, you know, I mentioned how much Eisenhower played. Kennedy attacks Eisenhower for Kennedy attacks Eisenhower for how much he plays. So he doesn't want to be seen as a hypocrite. And he also doesn't want to be seen. It's still got that whiff of elitism to it, the sport, despite what, uh, uh, Eisenhower and Palmer have tried to do for it. And so he doesn't want to be tied to it, but he's actually a really good golfer.

But when you think of JFK, you think of that touch football. Football is certainly at the time and probably still today. More blue collar, more average Joe, more swing state, right? And so it was all, you know, as like a lot of things with Kennedy, it was all a creation designed to appeal to voters. And sports played a role in that. But he was famously a good swimmer. Yeah, PT-109.

World War II and after World War II. Yes. So he swam in college, and a lot of people say that prepared him. I didn't know, so obviously you know he was awarded, you know, he was awarded medals of honor for his performance during when his boat was sung. But I go through it in the book just because I didn't know it, so I figured a lot of people didn't know, like what he actually did. And it's like pretty remarkable.

I mean, it's like four or five open water swims carrying a guy, no, middle of the night trying to dodge the enemy. Like it's a pretty heroic moment. And by the way, that moment makes him as a politician. I mean, like, if you read the press clips from after that, it's like he is an American hero. It's like a modern day McCain or back in the days, McCain. Like he is seen as an American hero for his performance in the war.

It leads to the House run, the Senate run. It's at the center of the presidential bid. like, but yeah, all because he's like a very gifted natural swimmer and swam in college. But yeah, look at that section in the book because I was stunned at it. I did. It's crazy, right? What's up with the pool? Oh, yeah.

He definitely in the White House. There's a pool in the White House. He definitely used that for less noble reasons. He would invite lady friends who were not his wife to the pool to swim, got caught, found out his wife was coming down. They sprint out of there. There's like footprints going out. I mean,

it's like exactly what everything. There wasn't an understanding with her. I don't think so. He was in, certainly not in that episode. He was perpetually in trouble. Yes. Yes.

And again, talk about it someone who couldn't do what he did now. Like, it should be impossible. I mean, he just like, his behavior was so like out there.

Well, yeah. With women. And he's so revered. It's remarkable. But it's perception. Yeah. This is what we've been talking about.

Yeah. It's like, how these guys model perception. It's like people think Ronald Reagan was a good athlete because he's photographed with a lot of good athletes. And like, man, if osmosis made you a great athlete, I'd be a great athlete. Like I'd just hang out with a great athlete

and have it rub off on me. It's not how it works. Yeah. You're at the wrong podcast. So like, you know, it's all perception. Ford is perceived as like this clumsy, oh, Ford was a great athlete. Yeah.

He is a Division I college football player. Yeah. You know, at the University of Michigan, like a real, real school, real place. And so, yeah, I just think that it is sports plays into the way in which we perceive who these guys are in really powerful ways. They play a role in determining it, too, because they get it. Especially now they get the role that sports can play. And, yeah, you're being manipulated at some level. I mean, that's the art of politics is manipulation and persuasion.

Persuasion, putting it nicely, putting it less nicely. But sports is a part of it. Last question for you, Chris. You've been so generous with you, Tom. Sure, of course. You appreciate you coming down. This is maybe a tough one.

If there's a professional athlete in today's era that you think could be president or in, or in, you know, the preceding era, who you got. I mean, the most obvious one. So I'm going to subtract out their interest in politics, right? because I don't know. Brady is like the most obvious one. See, I don't think I don't think he'd make it.

You don't? No, I don't think he could handle the debate stage. So it's interesting. It's a really good question. It's a really good point. So I'm looking at it purely from like a market ability. Name ID.

He's seen as like all American. Like he's got a great vibe. The whole, he's got an incredible personal story, whatever is six round pick, whatever the hell he was to the best quarterback of all time. like that arc is really sellable in politics, right? That's how I'm thinking of it, as opposed to, no offense, but like the number two pick is less

sellable. Yeah, you can't do that. Well, unless you're... Oh, we thought you were good and you were good. Unless you're Donald Trump. Right, unless you're Donald Trump. He was actually the number one pick that here you were number two. I don't know if I knew that.

He was at Radio City the night before. Yeah, I don't know if you knew that. Yeah, he snuck in there. So it's a different thing. I'm looking at it purely like on paper. Yeah. On paper, Brady makes a ton of sense because he's so well known. You know who else would be?

But, but yes, one of the things with the modern athlete, too, particularly if you're Brady is you're not used to being questioned in any meaningful way. You're not used to being challenged. He has such control of his plan. He lives in a bubble. There's nothing that's going to get to him. No one is like, Tom, you're wrong. Yeah.

You know what I mean? And that would happen in politics. Not anymore. He was with the Patriots. Yeah. Here's one for you. David Robinson. Now, I told David Robinson in this.

on the phone once because we had interfaced on a charity thing and I was like, hey man, it's going to sound crazy. I'm just sitting here in my hotel room ready to play game. And I was like, we're fucking this whole thing up. I was like, you could save the day. I just feel like David Robinson would be the best

president. I love him. Naval background. Yeah, and he's kind of a centrist, it seems like, so he'd be able to do a lot of people. Do you live in Texas? He's got to live in Texas, San Antonio or something. Yeah. My man would be I got one other name from the NBA that I was thinking of, who I think would be good is Chris Paul.

Chris Paul would be great. Because he's already super political. He's right. He's already super political with the right. He's a head of the players association. He's already political. He's into politics. He and Steph helped Obama sell Obamacare.

By the way, they help sell signups for it. They did ads for it. I think being a point guard is actually like a useful training ground, trying to get a bunch of people involved. good actor All state... I know, I'm telling you, like, he's somewhat... Again, we talked about this beforehand, but, like, professional athletes

is one thing where your career is... You need to find a second career much younger than the average person. Right? Like, by, I don't know what the washout rate in the NFL is, but probably by the time... Three years. Right, three years.

See, you're in your mid-20s, you've got to find another gig. You're in your mid-30s, you've got to find another gig. So, like, Chris Paul is not old. He's old for the NBA, but he's not old, particularly compared to who we're talking about running for office. Well, he's all enough enough. then now he might just be able to walk right into the Oval Office with the age. That's what I'm saying.

38 or 35? 35. Yeah, well, I'm not ready. You got some seasoning to do. Chris, I appreciate the time. Oh, my gosh. I'm thrilled to do it. Thrilled to do it.

It was really enjoyable. Great to meet you. Hope to interface again, man. Love to. Maybe in person, maybe on Zoom, but we'll get you going to go. I love to. Love the pod. Big fan.

Thank you, brother. I appreciate it.