Green Light with Chris Long - Hannah Gordon! NFL Coaching Interviews, Kellen Moore in Philly & Ben Johnson Stays in Detroit

Episode Date: January 31, 2024

It's Coach-talk Wednesday at the Green Light Podcast. Chris Long goes in depth on the Eagles hiring Kellen Moore and the impact he'll have on the offense, the Steelers finding an OC in Arthur Smith and Bobby Slowik and Ben Johnson both deciding to stay with their respective teams to make another run at the Super Bowl. After the coaching hiring news, Chris talks with Hannah Gordon, a former NFL executive, about the intricacies of NFL Head Coaching interviews and how owners can make the right decisions when hiring the leader of their teams. We end with a mailbag and if you don't believe in ghosts before this episode, you surely will afterwards. Much Love! (00:00) - Taylor Swift & Travis Kelce in the Long Household (7:35) - Coordinator News: Kellen Moore Hired by Philadelphia, Arthur Smith joins Pittsburgh, and Bobby Slowik and Ben Johnson Remain with Houston and Detroit (47:10) - Former NFL Executive Hannah Gordon talks Head Coaching Interviews, Hiring NFL Head Coaches and GMs, NFL Hiring Trends and Behind the Scenes of the Owner-HC Relationship (1:37:34) - Mailbag: Haunted San Francisco Hotels and NFL Injuries Have some interesting takes, some codebreaks or just want to talk to the Green Light Crew? We want to hear from you. Call into the Green Light Hotline and give us your hottest takes, your biggest gripes and general thoughts. Day and night, this hotline is open. Green Light Hotline: ‪[phone]‬ Make sure to check out Fax and the King every Wednesday on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FaxAndTheKing Send any Talent Search submissions to: [e-mail] Include any video of your talents, takes and bits as well as a little bit about yourself. Love hearing from the Green Light fans. Also, check out our paddling partners at Appomattox River Company to get your canoes, kayaks and paddleboards so you're set to hit the river this summer. https://paddleva.com/ Green Light Spotify Music: https://open.spotify.com/user/951jyryv2nu6l4iqz9p81him9?si=17c560d10ff04a9b Spotify Layup Line: https://open.spotify.com/playlist/1olmCMKGMEyWwOKaT1Aah3?si=675d445ddb824c42 Green Light Tube YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/GreenLightTube1 Green Light with Chris Long: Subscribe and enjoy weekly content including podcasts, documentaries, live chats, celebrity interviews and more including hot news items, trending discussions from the NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, NCAA are just a small part of what we will be sharing with you. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

As close to perfect as it could be with guys interviewing in the playoffs, could it be better? Yes, it could be better. No, it's definitely not perfect. I think, and you've mentioned this before, and I don't think enough people would probably talk about it. The process for hiring people who are going to run a multi-billion dollar business is unlike every other multi-billion dollar business in the world. In any Fortune 500 company, there would be a months-long search. You would talk to a lot of different people. You would take them through potentially four or five, six rounds of interviews. They would interview with a whole lot of different people.

And this is such a compacted schedule. The Greenlight Podcast welcomes you. A fun and filled pack Wednesday show for you today. We talk coordinator news in the NFL, Bobby Sloick, Ben Johnson, Arthur Smith, and Kellynne Moore. We go through those four guys, the impacts they'll have on their teams in 2024. Also, Chris gives a shout out to Sheila Ford, Hamp, the owner of the Detroit Lions, because she is just killing it. Ever since she took over, she's made the right hires, put the right people in the right positions,

and she's able to keep one of the top offensive minds in the game in Detroit. big shout out to what the Lions are doing. And after the coordinator updates with Chris, we welcome on Hannah Gordon. Hannah's going to talk about the front office aspect of coaching. What coaches need to do in interviews as they prepare the dynamic between head coaches and GMs, who is in the room from an ownership perspective

when these head coaching and GM interviews happen? And the hiring trends going on in the NFL right now. A great interview with a really interesting NFL mind. you'll be able to learn a lot from it. And then afterwards, we end with a little bit of a mailbag, a couple questions from you all. Thank you very much for submitting. So enjoy the show.

And thank you very much for getting us to 100,000 subscribers on YouTube. We hit the magic number. We're on to the next one. Much love. We have had enough of Taylor Swift for now. She shouldn't be liberal. She should be a total conservative, given everything. The Pentagon Sciop Unit pitched,

NATO on turning Taylor Swift into an asset. Yesterday, she flew private from New York City to Baltimore. Yet she constantly talks about climate change. So just please don't believe everything Taylor Swift says, we're all begging you. I think she should just stick to her singing and let her love life be what it is. The New York Times just speculated she's a lesbian.

A new poll shows 18% of voters are likely to vote for whichever candidate Taylor Swift endorses. Uh-oh. Biden effectively has Taylor Swift as his VP. A single post of hers led to 35,000 new registrants. That's arguably more power than the president. She's sharing links. And her boyfriend, Travis Kelty, sponsored by Pfizer?

What's her stance on policy, economic policy, foreign policy? I don't think that. I don't think that'll be, uh, don't get involved. Don't go involved in politics. We don't want to see you there. I found something in my kid's backpack, my seven-year-old, Waylon. Legit. Actually, his mom found it.

She was rooting through the backpack earlier. And she's like, look at this. This is a piece of paper. And it reads, Super Bowl 58. Let's go Chiefs. Chiefs versus San Francisco. If Chiefs win, Travis, spelled T-R-A-V-I-S-E, Kelsey, Marys, Taylor Swift.

Taylor Swift is spelled T-A-L-E-R-Swift. It's funny. I saw him and Nate talking just the other. the day. Yeah, it's a plant. It's a plant. Nate planted that in your son's backpack. Then I found a note that read, Dad, I'm joining Antifa. Listen, Taylor Swift, I've been educating myself on who Taylor Swift is. Taylor Swift is a musical artist that started under the supervision, if you will, of the record label, big machine, right? You guys know about this. And, Evidently when Scooter Braun bought the record company, there was a big hoopla about who owned the music and that sort of thing. Anyways.

Now she's joining the big red machine, not the Reds, but she's joining Big Red and the Kansas City Chiefs. 1989, the album. You know what happened in 1989? Communism ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall in November. December 13th, only a few weeks later, Taylor Swift. was born she's of english and german descent i wonder how far east her german descent is the chiefs love misdirection uh this feels like one big misdirection play okay the big red machine more like the big blue machine bear with me here look what you made me do these are lyrics from the song look what you made me do total sigh out by the way i don't even know what that word means

A list of names. Yours is in red, underlined. I check it once. I check it twice. Oh, what do you think this list of names is about? Do you think it's the voters in America that she's looking to corrupt? I mean, you heard what Fox News was saying at the start of the show. Taylor Swift is a plant. She's a government plant. These are the things I've been hearing this week, that she's a government plant. that at half time of the Super Bowl, she's going to take the field with Travis Kelsey to endorse Joe Biden. These are some of the things I've been hearing this week. So needless to say,

I was a little bit troubled when I found that picture in my son's back. Those fans that Arrowhead are super woke doing the chop. They're all woke. It's the woke agenda. So I just, yeah, it sounds good. yeah she was you know she was born the year communism died she wants to you know like or maybe she's a she's she's she's a plant you know what i mean maybe she's a she's a plant maybe she's a communist maybe uh maybe she's playing the long game guys you heard what fox news said in the at the open

of the show i don't know what does siop mean matt mean psychological operation it's like a way of distracting a populace to do something that is against their own self-interest? Well, it's working, okay? Because I'm going to buy my son tickets to a Taylor Swift concert at some point. Listen, in all seriousness, I did really find that note, but two offensive coordinators this week have found homes. or there are two offensive coordinator positions that were just filled.

The one that I wanted to talk about first was, was Kellan Moore in Philly. And listen, Philly at the very least, and I have to be careful about this stuff because I don't want to sound like somebody who's endorsing a coach,

you know, like I don't know how these things are going to work out. I was at the airport today, and some guy I was on the tarmac and the guy was like, hey, I saw you endorse Vic Fangio. Like I'm Taylor Swift. I'm not Taylor Swift.

I'm just on my pod educating people on, you know, what you might come to expect if Vic Fangio is going to be the coach schematically, where he's been some of the highlights of his career. I don't know if it's going to work out. I feel good about it. I feel good about the fact that they hired him over some other guys. I feel good about the fact that he's a former head coach. And I think this is something gets lost in the shuffle a little bit. Nick Siriana, young guy, head coach, right? He's been to the Super Bowl.

but it's good to have an older guy in the building. It's good to have a guy in the building that's going to be unafraid of telling Nick Siriani what he doesn't want to hear at sometimes. And I think also Nick Siriani strikes me as the guy who, you know, if somebody's experience is disarming enough to where he can, he can weigh in. He can change your mind from time to time. That's a positive. And I think that's advice in the level of.

of wisdom that, you know, a Nick Siriani would, would not only benefit from having in the building, but also would, would embrace having in the building. Not to mention the thing we've talked about all year, which is that that Vic Fangio was there last year. So you have to know that they have some sort of a positive working relationship. And, you know, that maybe there's an untold amount of Vic Fangio influence last year in how things were done. I don't think people understand this. Like being a head coach is an exhaustive challenge. We're going to talk about with Hannah in a little bit, like all the things that a coach has to worry about in today's modern NFL. And Vic Fangio has been a head coach and he's been around the game for a

long time. So having that in the building, you've at least got that. I don't think it's a lateral move. I don't think it's a backward move. I think it's a move in the right direction. Obviously, personnel is going to dictate as much as anything how that defense plays. Offensively, I think it's nice to know that you've got a guy in Kellynne Moore who a year ago was as hot a name as anybody. I know it's not going to be consolation for some Eagles fans who might have wanted somebody else or maybe you looked at the Chargers play offense this year. But I don't really want to judge him off the Chargers year. I don't.

Like I think this team has more in common with the Cowboys teams that he coached. And I also think that with some of the injuries and complications in L.A. this year, that the grade I would give him would be, complete, you know, like I'm going to gauge what I'm going to see in the future or trying to predict that off of what happened in Dallas. And, you know, if you look at who Kellan Moore is in the same vein of me laying out schematically who I think Big Fangio is, I think he's a West Coast guy that puts a twist on it. You know, when you think West Coast offense, you think of Lincoln and Duncan, you think of the short game, you think of quick release, a run game that marries with the past concepts. And you see that.

that so often with some of these West Coast tree guys. But don't get it twisted. This guy is not a dink and dunk guy. You know, he's going to take shots vertically. He prefers having that element in his game plans. And I think that's a good thing. And it's not going to be music to people's ear in Philly who were screaming all year about short game.

I think he's going to have those elements in his offense. You know, he's going to have hots. He's going to have easy answers for quarterback. but I also think having that vertical element will make them look more like 2022. I think if things work out, you can have those vertical elements and also go back to some of the elements that Shane Steichen had. You know, some of the more Jalen Hertz friendly crossing kind of patterns and, you know, the underneath stuff that can complement the deep stuff. And I think this could work out really well. I'll lay out two scenarios for you.

You know, one where it works out, one where it doesn't. I think one positive is you want to look more like the team that ran the ball. He's going to do that. You know, that's his bread and butter. I mean, he loves 12 personnel. He loves to pound the rock. They love to have a ground control element to that offense where Kellyn Moore was in Dallas. Like, that was a big part of it.

I think you'll see a better run game. game with Kellyn Moore, at the very least, the passing concepts, the fit with Jalen, that remains to be seen. If it works out, I think it'll look more like 2022 with some of the explosive elements. I think the run game will be more of a, you know, of a factor as it should be. I think that he has better wide receivers in this offense than he did in Dallas. You know, in Dallas, they had some firepower. But, you know, when you've got an A.J. Brown and Devante Smith and Dallas Goddard, like, I'm looking at that set of weapons.

And I'm saying this might be my best menu to choose from yet as a play caller. So that's all positive. The negatives or, you know, the scenario where it might not work out is, and it might have nothing to do with the coordinator is, you know, like the offensive line, which has been such a consistent and predictable strength of this team that could change a little bit next year. I don't think it's going to be a weakness, but with Jason Kelsey possibly retiring, how much does that affect the scheme? I mean, how many centers, 23 years old, 33 years old, whatever, get out and run in space like Jason Kelsey does? The guy runs like he's 21 years old.

and you know one of one of the lasting images of kelsey that i'm going to have in my head is him in the open field you know if you think of jason kelsey before the tush push you know what did you think of you thought of this this guy running uh four nine down the field to to get the lineback or the safety or you know a guy that you can pull and get out on the edge from this the center position And like that is, that's not something that most teams have. And, you know, at least not to the degree that Jason Kelsey has, has it. And so, you know, like if he's not there, how does that change some elements of the run game? They're going to be under center more.

Like, I said throw out the Chargers year. They were eighth in shotgun snaps, the Chargers year. Even if they're eighth, that's a big deviation from the way they've been. You know, like they are barely under center in an offense with Jalen Hertz to this point. And so, like, if you look at Dallas, when he was in Dallas, they were in gun 25th in the league. Like they ran the 25th highest clip of gun plays. Okay. With the charges, I said it was eighth, you know, the Eagles are first.

And so how does Jalen Hertz respond if he has to go under center a little bit? bit more or does he say hey listen we're going to hover around fifth you know we need you under center a little bit more but we're not going to look like we looked in Dallas and that could just be a player preference thing that could be something he meets jalen in the middle on if it is a jalen thing motion i do think is something that he cannot afford to meet jalen in the middle on i think they need a lot more pre-snap motion in this offense and i think you'll get it with him like when he was in dallas they were 13th in motion in pre-stranding motion when he was in LA they were seventh in priest snap motion Philly is 30th in

pre-snap motion that's something we talked about this year at length so I think if you're looking in the column of maybe it doesn't work out it's not because his scheme doesn't have value I think I think you look at a couple of these variables and you say I just don't know I just don't know how that would work out like if Jalen struggles under center is that going to be an impediment to him. If Jalen wants a static picture and doesn't want motion pre-snap, is that going to be an impediment to him? But I'm pretty sure all this has been discussed. So it'll be interesting to see how much of that is Jalen's unwillingness or inability to do those things and how much of it is just they haven't committed to it and truly gone through the process of grooming him to be a

little bit different. And so I'm interested to see how those things manifest. Endorses. I'm I don't know, but I do think it's a move in the right direction. And as I mentioned, you have a defensive coordinator who's been a head coach. That's invaluable. His scheme, highly thought of. And yeah, over the last couple of years, people have caught up a little bit to some of his disciples. But this is the guy that kind of, he was the trailblazer. So let's see how this works out.

I'm really excited about these two moves. They could be a lot worse. Okay. I didn't say endorsement. but I am excited. And then Arthur Smith, Arthur Smith, hired by the Steelers. And I think, you know, for the most part, with the Steelers, they like to hire guys from within, right? Like, it's truly one of those programs where, you know, and there's only a few of these places, really,

where they prefer that it be one of their own, whether it's a coordinator on offense or a defensive coordinator or, you know, somebody in personnel. I just get the idea that this is a place that values continuity and people that have come up in the building. Arthur Smith is a little bit outside the mold there. And I think he's also outside the mold because this is the first chance that they've taken on a dude since I've basically been out of league. And by dude, I mean a guy with a reputation, a guy who's either been a head coach, a guy who's thought of as a highly sought after play caller at any point in this career. Todd Haley was kind of last guy, right? Like they've cycled through a couple guys since Todd, including Matt Canada, and they kind of felt like half measures.

They felt like it felt like Bill promoting, you know, the wrong guys from within to be offensive coordinators or what have you. This feels like taking a chance and I like it. You know, that this feels. And I also think, again, having another head coach in the building, Tomlin doesn't need any help. but it does it's a net positive you know it can't hurt to have that experience even if he failed within that experience you learn things um and i also think like when you weigh arthur smith's time in alana against maybe future outcomes it's hard to say you know how affected any of these guys are by having to to shoulder the responsibilities that head coaches have to shoulder while

calling plays. Like, it's insane to me to think about as I sit there playing Madden, trying to keep track of what defense is, you know, the dude on the other end of PS5 Live has been in. It's, it's hard for me to keep track of the clock. It's hard for me to keep track of a whole host of things. And I'm just playing a video game. Now, imagine that there are constant conversations going on throughout the game about timeout usage, about personnel. about, you know, like how we're going to adjust to this and that fires you got to put out on the sideline, all those things, including during the week having to be the architect of a week of preparation, including having to coordinate travel, including having to make decisions on things

that people at home think are kind of inconsequential. They're all consequential while trying to devise a game plan and then call the plays. Like, I'm not going to judge Arthur Smith's time in Atlanta in a manner that I'm going to hold it against him. I've seen him call play successfully in the NFL. In 2019 and 2020, he got the best out of Tannahill. He got the best out of Derek Henry. And you could say, hey, that's a perfect storm.

Those guys are in the primes of their careers. It could have been anybody. But I do think he was a perfect fit there. and if you look at those guys statistically, they had their best years when Arthur Smith was in Tennessee. And, you know, when he left, you could say, hey, Derek Henry, a little longer in the tooth, Tanna Hill, the magic runs out a little bit.

But I think especially with the quarterback, seeing those results makes me feel good about what they could get out of the guys they have in Pittsburgh. Now, the big differences to me when it comes to what he's done, you know, customarily and what Pittsburgh has done, at least this past year is play action pass. Like, that's a huge one. And I don't know if it's a thing where at the end of the season, they became more of a power running team.

And I understand that Atlanta, a little bit more outside zone, a little bit more edge stuff. But in spirit, it's the same thing. It's committing to saying, hey, we are a running football team. You know what position group was probably the most pissed off that Arthur Smith got fired, the offensive line? They love that guy. And I don't think, and there might be some pushback here, I don't think Atlanta's got the most talented group up front.

Now, they're a very good group, right? They've got guys like Lindstrom. You know, they've got guys like Jake Matthews who have been there a long time. But I don't look at that group and say, damn, they just have loads of talent. And I know Pittsburgh's less talented, less heralded up front. They'll make additions,

but he will get the most of that group. and he'll get the most out of the run game. Now, play action pass coming off of that, that's something that Pittsburgh left money on the table with. They were 31st in the league when it came to play action attempts. Okay, like Arthur has been top five everywhere he's gone. So if you want to know what they're going to look like, I think the run game is going to be a big part of that.

And I think the play action will be something that, especially when you have two quarterbacks on the roster right now, although they're not accustomed to it, can be the best friend of an average quarterback. Play action can really be a tool for a guy that's not a world beater. And right now, if you look at that roster, you've got Kenny Pickett, Mason Rudolph, and they're talking about these two are kind of duel it out and there's a competition. If that's the case, play action will help these guys. Now, there's a wild card scenario here. You know who was first in the league last year in play action is the Minnesota Vikings. And I've,

I've talked about this before. I talked about it last week. I think the Vikings and Kirk Cousin's situation is one that not enough people are paying attention to because I think he is a good veteran quarterback who can win you games and he's going to be on the market possibly. And he's going to command a lot of money still at his age, 36, coming off in Achilles.

I think he's a guy that Pittsburgh could look at. And I also wonder if this. this move is instructive in thinking maybe there is a wild card kind of quarterback that they have in mind that they could acquire or go after. And maybe Kirk Cousness is that guy because he is a play action dude. I mean, he's made a lot of his hay over the course of his career, turning his back to defense, gathering his feet and delivering and firing down field. Like would you rather have Kirk Cousins or Ryan Tannehill. I think Kirk Cousins, as his career has gone on, people have appreciated him more appropriately as maybe not an elite quarterback, but somebody

you can definitely win with. And you can win with it if you got a run game, you can win with Kirk Cousins. If play action is a part of the equation. And if you are Arthur Smith, I look at the Tennessee model, whether it's Kirk Cousins or somebody else or the guys on the roster. You have your version of an AJ Brown in George Pickens. I'm not saying he's AJ Brown, but I think he's wildly talented. And you have your version of a Derek Henry in Najee Harris. Now, he's not Derek Henry, but you've got a big bruising back and a very talented number one receiver. And I think he might look at the bones of this team and say, hey, we can win this way with this formula. And so I think this is number one, an outlier.

it comes to Pittsburgh making a hire right like they're they're going outside the building tomlin's very loyal to a fault slow to get rid of Canada but he did the right thing and now i think this hire is in line with uh what i would do if i was up there i'd go get an experienced play caller and somebody that that puts an onus on the run game and puts an onus on play action pass especially in that division right that that quick game bullshit that they were doing for a couple years the lack of creativity, the predictability. You're bringing a knife to a gunfight in the AFC North, and on top of it, it's not complex.

There's no differentiating factor to your team. So you're not physical and you're not creative. And now, at the very least, I know they're going to be physical, and I've seen Arthur be creative. So I don't know, maybe I'm selling hope. I don't want to make this an endorsement again. but Pittsburgh fans, I think you've got to be excited to have a real live offensive coordinator in the building for the first time and a half decade.

You know, this guy has done it, which leads me to my next topic, which is Ben Johnson. This was like big news, man. And for Lions fans, dude, your worst day, right? Now, you've had a lot of bad days, but the other day was bad, right? It's almost worse to lose in the conference championship the way you guys did, give up a 17-point lead, the fourth down decisions, the timeout, like the drops, the lack of execution. And that's something that, listen, I didn't get into this on our show, but the more time that has passed, the less I blame Dan for the fourth down decisions. I blame Dan for taking the time

out late in the game. And I blame Ben for that too, right? You got to have a second play. In that situation, you're leaving the fate of your season in the hands of an onside kick the minute you take that time out. And to me, I thought that was the Cardinal Sin. The more I looked at the fourth down, you know, calls, and I talked about this on Monday, okay, it's what you do, right? Like, that's who you are. If the analytics support it, there's an analytics crowd out there that I know that, you know,

like get painted in a bad light sometimes and by meatheads like me and that sort of thing. I think analytics are an incredible tool, but you have to, it's ultimately, it is about the guy who's holding the tool, right? It's a tool. How the guy holding the tool, the head coach or the play caller, how the guy holding that tool uses the tool is ultimately what makes analytics powerful or irresponsible. And I'm not here to make a determination on what Dan knew or didn't know, but I know one thing he did know, factoring that into the analytics and weighing, kicking field goals against going for it on fourth and three or fourth and short later in the quarter. Badgley, their kicker.

When I looked at his numbers, I completely understand the decision, especially when you consider the fact that Reynolds has the ball in his hands. Okay, you're up 14, you have an opportunity to go up 17. I know what Dan's thinking. He's like, let's go up 21. Remember that stat about Kyle Shanahan and being down in the fourth quarter and that sort of thing? They just got done scoring quick, right?

and before you knew it after that situation, they'd scored again twice more in a flash. I think one of their later touchdown drives was seven minutes, but they were putting points up and chunking them with ease in the second half. And so, you know, like from a standpoint of outscoring the team, I understand it, but more than anything, I understand it from a perspective of the kicker was literally on a practice squad very recently,

was not your starting kicker to start the season. I think his first or his last outdoor kick was in January of 2023, and it went wide. And when you looked at him outside between 40 and 47, I think he's 66% on his career. And at 47 or higher, I think his field goal percentage dips down below 60. And so when you look at lining a guy up who hasn't had to make a kick of this magnitude outdoors, in the better part of a calendar year,

I understand it. I understand not putting the fate of your team in the kicker's hands. I do get that, so it's not lost on me. But long story short, terrible day for Detroit, Detroit fans, even with everywhere you've been, but how about this consolation prize? Really, I mean, this is a big deal,

because I was at Inside the NFL, today. And there were guys that were like, we were talking about, can Dan Campbell get back there after making a mistake like this? First off, I think you can. And I think the evidence is right over there on the other sideline in that game Sunday. Okay. I've played in a game where Kyle Shanahan, you can put it on Dan Quinn. Kyle Shanahan's the offensive coordinator. They're up eight at the 25-yard line, basically, with a chance to win a Super Bowl under four minutes. Okay. Their win probability was right up there with Detroit's win probability. up 17 or wherever you want to however you want to slice it they had a 90 plus percent chance of winning that game when they were up eight down there and they took a sack tray flowers they incurred a holding penalty they're out of field goal range because they didn't run the ball and if you're going to tell me that dan campbell is disqualified from ever getting back on this stage i would tell you to look no further than the guy who's playing in the biggest game of the season this year

because there was a time where I could point to Kyle Shanahan and say he's the reason that team didn't win a Super Bowl. He's a reason I have a ring. He's a reason I have two rings because if it's not for Kyle Shanahan throwing the ball, I don't have one ring and I might retire and I might not end up in Philly. So I look at the Dan Campbell situation and I say there's nothing telling me they can't get back where they were Sunday. And if Ben Johnson's back, there's absolutely nothing telling me they can't get back where they were. There were guys on the set today that we're talking about this very issue. And they said that if Ben Johnson leaves, Dan Campbell get fired in the next year. I don't know if that's true or not because I don't know who he'd hire a coordinator or how good it would be or if he'd be able to replace Ben Johnson.

But the bottom line is he's not leaving. and I don't know what he's being paid right now. I know what he was asking for. Supposedly some people were a little bit spooked by the numbers he was he was talking about. I can't get into did they give him a handshake deal that they were going to pay him more money down the line or something. Did Sheila Fordham and him have a handshake deal? Are they going to restructure the contract in good faith here coming up soon? maybe Carolina just blew up his value to where other teams were like,

yeah, we can't pay you what David Tepper offered you. If that's what you think you're going to get here, you're not going to get it. There's so much that I don't know. But what I do know is that the commanders and the Seahawks were not better opportunities than staying put for him. And I think not enough coaches think this way, right? I think not enough coaches played a long game. And it's easy for me to say because as I'm about to discuss with Hannah,

every situation is different. And it is like the stock market. Your name could be hot one year. And it could cool off inexplicably in the next year or two. And a lot of it can be because of the team you're on. You know, like for Dave Canales, maybe Dave Canales is like, I've got to jump right now. You know, like, am I going to get two years out of Baker Mayfield like that?

I think it's a vote of confidence for Ben Johnson to stay when it comes Dan Campbell. It's a vote of confidence for Ben Johnson to stay when it comes to Jared golf. I think it's a vote of confidence for the culture in Detroit. I mean, if you're really thinking about this and you're a Detroit Lions fan, just consider this for a second. There was a time where you couldn't get a free agent to sign in Detroit. Like, I don't need to look it up, but that wasn't on the list for a lot of guys. Right. Like, that's not an attractive. destination, nothing against the city of Detroit, but like guys are looking at Miami, LA, New York, like big markets, warm weather, you know, off the field opportunities. In today's NFL, free agency,

that stuff matters. And if you're not winning and you're not in a city like that, it's going to be hard to bring free agents in. And that Detroit Dark Cloud has followed that franchise for for decades, right? Through different iterations of ownership and the whole thing, you are not. You are not the same Detroit Lions. Look no further than this situation. This is rare that a guy with a name this hot decides to stay with the team he's coaching. He has opportunities to go a whole host of places and he decides that he wants to stay in Detroit with Dan Campbell, the guy who said who's going to bite people's kneecaps, and Jared Goff, a guy that Sean McVeigh, one of the brightest offensive minds in football, decided to discard.

okay you guys have something different going on now and since 2020 when sheila ford hampt took over all she's done has hit buckets all she's done has been to make the right moves you know whether it was the easy moves like firing matt patricia and the GM uh or the tough moves like hiring dang campbell and brad homes and bringing on spielman to be her kind of executive assistant who helped her find Dan Campbell and has weighed in on an unknown amount of big decisions that she's had to make. But I just wanted to say this. Ownership is the one area in the NFL that there can be a giant variability in the skill level and outcomes as it pertains to making decisions and hiring coaches and doing what's right for the franchise.

There are only so many quarterbacks in the league. The delta between the best one and the worst one, I bet the delta between the best owner and the worst owner is bigger. And I think Sheila has done a tremendous job, not only being a woman in the NFL, but also just being no bullshit, seeming to be deferential to people around her when it comes to tough decisions seeming to surround herself with the right football minds and seeming to be a good teammate. And I don't think it's insignificant that this gal was a Yale tennis star. Like I didn't know that. She's a collegiate athlete. How many of these owners have athletic backgrounds? You know,

one of the only gals running an NFL team happens to be one of the biggest jocks, right? And I think also that that mindset can permeate into the culture of an organization, whether you know it or not. I think she's done a tremendous job. And I think because of Sheila and because of the hires that she's made, you are not the old Detroit Lions. You are the new Detroit Lions. So I know that on Monday, when you wake up, the sky is falling and you know you're going to revert back to the old lions. Like you just know, hey, that was fun. It's fucking over. That's who we, That's not who we are. Who we are is what we're going to return to being.

And it's going to be that way for an unknown amount of time. When Dan Campbell says, I can't guarantee you you're going to get back here. You know, when Dan Campbell tells the players that, which is a very real thing, that's what any coach is telling their players, right? Unless you've got Patrick Mahomes or somebody like that. Like, you never know. The window is not guaranteed. Sometimes you don't know it's closed at all.

Sometimes you don't know what's going to close in the next year. you don't know how big that window is but i do know that you are doing things organizationally the right way and this this today is evidence of that and the fact that you are not the same old lions because how many teams are retaining hot-shot coordinators just on the strength of the culture of your team and the head coach and the outlook because this guy knows if i stay and things don't go well i could be become one of these coaches who disappear off the face of the earth. And we don't hear about them in the next hiring cycle.

He's deciding to take that risk. And I think it's telling. I think you should bet the overwin total on the Detroit Lions next year because Ben Johnson said so. Another coach who is staying with his team, Bobby Sloick, in Houston, which team do you think has the better outlook for 2024 between detections keeping Sloick and Detroit keeping Ben Johnson? Well, it's interesting because one team.

And Slowick's a perfect example of this. Slowick is getting a raise. Okay. And I don't know why I don't know why owners don't do this more. Back to the brink truck up and pay a guy that might be the key to your, your biggest investment success in CJ Stroud. If it's working, like let's kick the can down the road on you leaving. How much money is it take, right?

And Gerard Johnson's staying, right? Like he was interviewing for some positions. He's saying he's staying like, these are positive indicators. These are like, hey, we've got. something going here. I don't know why enough, I don't know why more coaches don't do this, right? I understand the risk of it all, not jumping when it's time to jump, but when you got C.J. Stroud, I want to ride this train for a couple years, right? I believe in the quarterback that much. I believe in Domingo that much. Now on the other side of things, you've got as many cold-blooded

apex predators in the AFC as I can remember at any time, right, with the emergency. of C.J. Stroud, maybe Justin Herbert with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, with, was a lot better. Uh, you obviously got Mahomes burrow the whole gang. Josh Allen. The list goes on. If you're in the NFC and you're the, the, the, the, the Detroit Lions, one of the positives you have is that you are in the NFC and there are no, there are no Patrick Mahomes. There are no, Joe Burroughs. There are no, there's one guy in my opinion that, that that's in that elite category and that's Matt Stafford. So we were talking. We were talking, about this today. When it comes to the NFC and the AFC, and you look at that final four,

it's very telling. In the AFC, you need one of those guys, right? You need one of those guys. To beat Mahomes, you need a great team. You need one of those guys. You need a couple tries at it, right? If you're lucky. In the NFC, we just saw Brock Purdy and Jared golf go toe to toe for the NFC championship. Roster construction works in the NFC. Putting that first, works in the NFC. So if you're a team evaluating free agency, possibly trading back in the draft, trading up in the draft, whatever it is, attacking that position. If I'm in the NFC, it's not to say if I see a special quarterback, I don't take a stab at it, but the reality is different. And so I think if you ask me that question, who's got a better shot? They have totally different challenges,

right? One guy's got the next dude, Bobby Sloick. in CJ Shroud. And one guy's got this tremendous culture and system that they built and evenly distributed playmakers. And yeah, you could use a big number one maybe in Detroit. But you have a lot of pieces there. And both those teams that played in the NFC championship are roster constructed type teams where the strength of those teams, the quarterback, they're pluses, right?

I'm not here to slander those guys, but it is about the roster construction. So I think another. other interesting element of this whole thing is you see Adam Schaefter get on with the Ben Johnson news breaking and saying like you know Ben's loyal that's you know that's the spin that we're putting on it and maybe that is true but maybe he's just smart too right because I think in this situation he's being a good businessman he may well be loyal but sometimes the loyal decision is also the smart decision this this whole thing with the coordinators makes me think about Luke Walton had the perfect scenario as assistant coach with Golden State could have gone on and won

like multiple titles left went to the Lakers that failed you know now he's an assistant coach again yeah I mean a lot of its timing it's like do I get on the bus or do I stay um and hopefully it works out for both both Ben and Bobby Sloick um and they've got stuff they can learn from Ben Johnson and Bobby Slowick just just completed their first professional playoff runs right as coordinators and you know like that for players that plan in the dance for the first time and for coordinators I would say even more so for coordinators because you know you know I talk about this all the time players in the playoffs you think they got loads of experience they make boneheaded plays guys who never played in the playoffs make the biggest plays of the game you know like it happens all the time coordinators though

game planning in the playoffs different preparing for that game's different the intensity is different the things you're going to see are different and so I think these guys will be even better for their experience rounds of interviews as well and rounds of interviews all right well

having said all that let's get to let's get to Hannah Hannah Gordon's the guest Hannah Gordon has worked as an executive with the Niners with the Raiders she worked for Al Davis I do not know Hannah Gordon well

I was texting with a friend who used to work in a front office, and I was like, hey, man, what gives with this coaching hiring process? I mean, it just seems like the Wild West, when you don't know the ends and the outs of the guardrails of the whole thing, you can find yourself asking questions like mine, which is like, how the fuck do coaches have all this time to do all this interviewing and prep and get ready for, you know, a deep playoff run? mean that's what these guys are asked to do uh the guys in the hiring cycle right now we're going to talk about coaches in a second that just got jobs we're going to talk about some coaches who are still out there uh but more than anything i think what's so interesting is the public knows very little about what goes into hiring an NFL coach and players know very little about what goes into hiring an NFL coach so i'm texting my buddy though the other night and asking him about the process and the whole thing because he used to work for an owner directly and he said

man, there is a gal that is tremendous on this stuff. She's a consultant. She's worked in organizations upstairs. She's worked on diversity, inclusion, and in hiring practices in the NFL, which is a really hot topic. But more than anything, she's the one who preps coaches to be ready for these tests. And a little look ahead to the interview, I thought one thing she said that was so illuminating is like if you've been working on this test for your whole life you should be ready to

take it when it's time to take the test and i i don't think that's to say just if you've been coaching your whole life you know the hay is in the barn you'll go out and ace the test i think it more alludes to the the process you know and that process there's a time and a place for it and i get to find out what it entails talking to hannah in just a little bit and so to you so very interesting wide-ranging conversation about, you know, what goes on behind the scenes when it comes to hiring NFL coaches. Some of the trends, some of the things we may see happen more in the future here, hopefully some of the things we might not see happen as much in the future because that process has changed as time has gone on and it will continue to change. So I think

you'll enjoy it. Stick around for one or two mailbags at the end. Whatever you're looking forward to this football season, there's one thing that pairs well with every. every great moment and that is an ice cold Miller Light. Whether you're at the stadium, playing fantasy football, or watching the game at home, or at the bar, Miller Light is here to make your football season taste like Miller Time. From kickoff to the clock runs out. You can't go wrong with the Miller Light in your hand.

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coaching interview processes, questions like I am in the dark. I have no idea. I'm just a downstairs guy. I want to know how people upstairs live in an NFL building. And so I'm having on Hannah Gordon. And I'm so excited to welcome Hannah to the show. Hannah, how you doing? I'm doing great, Chris.

How are you? I'm doing great. We got a mutual friend in James Hall. Obviously, I told people about your history with the Raiders. And I know we probably know a lot of the same people from there, but the Niners as well. And then the work to me that's so interesting that you're doing now is some of your consulting stuff. with guys who are trying to get head coaching gigs. And I think that's just the NFL schedule is so perfectly laid out all year when it comes to stories.

You know, we get these playoff games right into the hiring cycle and the whole thing. But my first question to you would be, is this process laid out from a chronological standpoint and a timing standpoint as close to perfect as it could be with guys interviewing in the playoffs? Could it be better? Yes, it could be better. No, it's definitely not perfect. I think, and you've mentioned this before, and I don't think enough people probably talk about it, the process for hiring people who are going to run a multi-billion dollar business is unlike every other multi-billion dollar business in the world.

In any Fortune 500 company, there would be a month's long search. You would talk to a lot of different people. You would take them through potentially four or five, six rounds of. interviews. They would interview with a whole lot of different people. And this is such a compacted schedule. And then the other thing that's wild is that the next layer of interviews and hires happen in a matter of days, sometimes weeks. Whereas if you are an executive taking over a multi-billion dollar company somewhere else, it's probably going to take you 12 months to turn over a staff, right? And bring in the right next layer of people. So,

Is it perfect? No, definitely not. And it's even harder, I would argue, for people who are hired as general managers. Because if you're hired as a head coach, you are coming in after that team season that's hiring you at least. Right. But you're three quarters the way through your cycle if you're a GM. Right. Like you're about to hit free agency in the draft. And somebody else has been doing the work for that for the last three quarters of the year.

do you find that there is a solution or do you feel like if you slide one thing here you're going to you're going to mess this phase up or that sort of thing like is there a tweak that they could possibly is there a tweak they've ever talked about making because I think coming from the player standpoint it's more just pointing out the hypocrisy of coaches being able to do this and I understand like there's no other time to do it you know like there are rules and regulations that I'm learning about every day when it comes to the scheduling of these things and the prep time that they can have. But still, juxtapose to players not being able to say, boo, until the season's end, you know, and start their journeys into free agency. Like, it is a totally different deal. Is there, is there a distraction element? And can they improve upon that? Yeah. So I think the distraction element to me, and obviously I didn't play the game, right? So I don't have your perspective as a player, the potential frustration that your coach is interviewing elsewhere. What I would say is from the flip side of the people doing hiring, if I'm hiring you to run, really be responsible for the product of my multi-billion dollar business, I'm going to pay you millions of dollars a year to do it. I expect that you know how to manage multiple projects at once, right?

I expect that you are a high-level, you know, thinking executive with great time management skills who can prepare for the most important game of your life and take a job interview that in theory, you've been preparing for for years, right? But really both of those tasks, a lot of people would say, like, I've been preparing for this my whole life. So you should be able to handle it. Do you find that any coaches that you've dealt with have had trepidation when it comes to multitasking

and need a little bit of encouragement when it comes to like, hey, I've got to be able to get you to prep for this a little bit. We know we've been doing it all year. I know you've got a big, big championship Sunday coming up, but, you know, these interviews are important to your future. Have you found that coaches have had trouble wrapping their head around that at times? I mean, again, I don't think so, but you also, you had a great segment you didn't really fully do, which was whose ego is bigger than whose, right?

I can't wait to do that segment. Yeah, you've got to do it, for one thing. But, like, only type A personalities go into this line of work, right? So like, I don't, I think people are fully capable of it. Like, I don't think that there is anyone who would be like, gosh, I don't think I want my dream job because I can't, I can't handle this. And on the way the process has changed that you asked about or that could change, I think the one tweak that has been made in the last few years and we can all probably thank COVID for it is the virtual interviews, right? So at least people aren't flying back and forth. I mean, that genuinely, I can see why, especially as a player, you'd be like, that's frustrating.

Like, you're actually gone for a day and a half. Whereas, like, if you're hopping on a Zoom for an hour, like, I don't know. I don't think that's that. Yeah, I see what you're saying there because it's the physically being a way that would be, to me, like kind of an impediment to preparing for the game. But we do all types of things during the week, whether it's the regular season or the postseason. But have nothing to do with football. It's about time management. And I guess that begs the question, what is the biggest commonality from a personality standpoint,

or there's a trait that you found that kind of ties these dynamic future coaches together, the ones that work out in your experience? I think there's a, so I really do believe that every single person is unique. I think that there's folks who've done incredible analytics like Prabram Rate, the 49ers, really trying to study every time he ever did a hiring cycle, like are there things that tie together the folks that are successful? Are their backgrounds? But I think we've seen people come from a lot of different backgrounds who are successful.

I mean, I will say, and I think this is probably true of all coaches and not just successful ones. Like we were talking about, you know, the type A personality, their leadership quality, obviously. I think you have mentioned before, like, you can't fool a room full of players. And, like, I will tell you, probably the most intimidating, you know, experiences I've ever had are when I had to, like, actually present. Because if you want to do that room, like, that is not a room that is going to tolerate any nonsense, right? Like, they will smell fear and, like, the shark. They do, they smell fear.

Yeah, it's true. It's like, you know, when I got to go talk to a group of like middle schoolers, I'm scared out of my mind because I feel like they can smell fear too, just like pro football players, you know? So I totally, but you can fool owners, can't you? I mean, not that that's the objective, but like I feel like one of the biggest disconnects to your point earlier is this hiring process is way different in so many ways. But in one way that I think it's wildly different is, you know, owners are not necessarily football experts. The variability is crazy. And so, you know, these guys, mostly guys, seem to misread people. You know, I was just giving props to Sheila Ford Ham.

Because I think in 2020, when she took over, she's the reason that if you're a Detroit Lions fan, you're like, we are not the same old lions. We have different leadership. We have different GM. We have a different coach. We have a different culture. We have a culture strong enough that Ben Johnson wants to forego better opportunities and he wants to stay here. You know, that's what you're trying to build. So what do you think the biggest challenges in like reading these billionaire dudes?

So I love that you brought her up because there has been some good coverage on the process that she put together, the type of people she wanted to bring in, the fact that she wanted, you know, former player perspectives, and that she knew the type of person and culture that she felt would be a fit. Right. Because I do think part of people's success or failure is about shared expectation. And so, like, not every franchise is a fit for every person who could be successful in one place, but maybe not in another. And so, and some of that is role clarity, too, because you see conflict when, you know, there's two people. who think that they should be calling the shot on whether it's, you know,

a final say on the roster, whatever you want it to be, there needs to be real clarity about, like, who calls what shots, you know, whose lane is what, and like, what is it that we are, right? If you own the franchise, all culture is truly set from the top. And so that's got to be really clear and you've got to find the person who's the right fit. And I think you've given an example of a team that did that really beautifully. give me an example of who's in the room for these actual interviews once they get you know once you cross that zoom threshold and you're doing it in person who's in the room what's the tone like what's the what's the vibe like how much does it vary and and how intimidating can

it be well a it varies a lot um i think one of the interesting trends you're seeing in the last couple of years is people involving a lot more folks at the table. And I think that that's a good thing because you've made the argument that, you know, one person who didn't do this particular job before, right, hiring for it is maybe not the best process. And certainly if you look at it from a DEI perspective, historically did not, you know, yield the best results from a DEI perspective. And so I think what you saw when the Vikings hired Quasi, what you saw with some other folks processes is that they decided to take a much bigger swath of the building to involve some people from the business side, to involve potentially some outside voices or some player voices like you've talked about, and just have a more inclusive process. And that can yield not only more inclusive results, but really successful results. And rewinding, you know, just so people understand, like, and this is my understanding and just doing a little bit of research, but help me out here is there are time limits on how much you can prepare for these interviews while you're a member of a certain team in the playoffs.

Like, right, you know, the expectation is you should be preparing within a window. But a lot of this preparation, as you alluded to, metaphorically speaking, you've been preparing your whole life. but there is real intentional prep in the offseason leading up for guys that are expecting to maybe be in these cycles. Yeah. And I mean, I would argue that you should, right, if you're in that situation where you're expecting that I could be hired into a GM roll or head coach role in the next year or two or three even, you should be doing a ton of preparation in the office. Like, to me, it's like, if you have studied for the test, like, the test shouldn't be hard. Right. So, like, and I'll give you an example because I come from originally a legal background.

The bar is like a three-day intense test and you do like a month and a half prep class after three years of law school. And it's like by the time you get to the test, like, you should just nail that thing. Like, you shouldn't still be thinking about it the day before the test. Like, you should just get a good light sleep and show up. Yeah, it only took me one time. so there you go so it's really the same thing like the prep work should be done so far in advance and yes for a specific team right just like any you know any regular joe going to interview with an employer like yeah obviously you want to research the employer but we're in a situation where

there's actually only 32 employers right and you've probably been working in the league for 10 15 years. So like you have more than enough time over those years to really gather a lot of great information about who you might be interviewing with. How does somebody in that situation decide whether or not they're worthy of studying and doing the extra work and seeking counsel? You know what I mean? Like how do you actually say because that's a weird conversation. Like I'm like, hey, I think I'm a good coach, but am I at that point yet? You know, like for some of the people on the fence and then for guys that have tremendous years like i don't know if a dave canales was on the radar for people a year ago yeah i guess if you believe in yourself i feel like you want to

be ready when you are hot to the point that you just made right because there are guys who suddenly become like a hot name in the media out of nowhere um and you could be like not a hot name a couple years later and to no fault of your own you're not a different person you're not a different coach. But like you and I have both seen that with plenty of guys where like they were like circulated in, you know, like, oh, this is the guy. This is the hot guy. And they don't get a job for a cycle or two. And all of a sudden they're like dead. It's like they're never mentioned again. Who's somebody you can think of in that vein that that was their name was hot for a little bit. It's so. So Greg Roman, who I love. Greg Roman. Who I work with the 49ers. People were like all over. Oh,

he's going to be a head coach. He's going to be a head coach. And you know, like, things just shifted and it's the situation you're in you know maybe you're somewhere and things don't go as well the next year and all of a sudden like that's just not on people's sort of lists anymore and it gets also to the issue within this like whole hiring process of the role that people like what you are now play the media the media has arguably a big influence on the whole process because so much of what the people who are doing hiring are hearing is folks like you saying who's hot. Yes. So it gets into who gets to decide who's hot.

And what is their background and knowledge, right? Like you've been saying, hey, what do these people know about football? Now, you obviously played the game. You know a lot about football, but there's plenty of people. I bet you think in your field who maybe don't know. Yeah, but still, I mean, even me, when I make a determination on a coach, I can go off of the scheme, and go off some hearsay about who they are. I can text the guy and say,

what's that guy like? But as you know, the variability on, you know, who a guy is to the players in the building, it could depend on what part of the locker room you're in. It could depend on what player you're talking to. There's so much, as you know, more than me. There's so much going on in an NFL facility that the media is not even scratching the surface on.

And we have the wrong narratives, and there are things going on internally between players and positions that are the friction's crazy, but you're not seeing it. Or, you know, maybe you think some guy's the bad guy, and it's actually another coach that's screwing the whole thing up. So we don't know. And so I try to be careful about quote unquote endorsing guys, you know what I mean?

Because I wanted the same thing, and I think I know the answer, and I would imagine it's agents, but like who are ultimately the people that set those wheels in motion, those big wheels that dictate? The media wheels? Yeah. I do think agents have a role to play there. I think direct relationships, though, with coaches and with, you know, scouts is also a big part of it. And so I think, you know, one of the challenges that people face is how to manage those relationships.

Right. So I do think that that's a part of it. And to the point you just made, I think one of the interesting things about, you know, like, who can determine who's hot is in the GM cycle where, like coaches, like if a guy is, like, if a guy is, been a coordinator, at least you have something that you could have watched on TV and made a judgment about. You don't know what this guy's scouting, like, what were his scouting reports for the last five years? Can I go, like, you don't, you have no idea, really, like, if you're an outsider of like, what role that person. So, like, all you know is if they were at a team that was winning or not, or what their title is. Um, so I think that there's, and yet somehow the media does,

you know, make these determinations like, oh, this, you know, this guy is coming up in cycle. This guy's, you know, a hot name. Is it rare to have an outlier coach who's not thought of as one of these, you know, within this pool of exceptional names with exceptional resumes that everybody's kind of agreed on? The way I look at it, owners are generally, the council generally agrees with them for the most part in their, in their personal circles. That's what happens. My opinion is when you, you have a lot of money and a lot of power, most people agree with you know. And if you can get somebody in.

As a person who has done a lot of disagreeing with people. I mean, I think if you have a good circle, you have people who disagree with you, right? So I agree that if you, it's a very dangerous place to be. And certainly anyone with a lot of either fame or power or money is always going to be at risk of being surrounded by yes men. That's inevitably going to be a risk. And hopefully you, you know, make sure that you have people around you who will tell you that the emperor has no clothes. Yeah, exactly. My question would be then, you know, if somebody exists outside this pool, like how often does somebody elevate to getting an opportunity where he's the, that name is only on the docket for one team?

And they're on to somebody, right? They've identified a really good outlier type coach. because for the most part, I feel like they all pick from the same pool that they've decided upon together, whether they know it or not, because of media influence and because of just whoever the hot names are, the suggestive nature of it. How many times do we get an outlier? Yeah. And it also, that gets into an interesting question of like what is truly an outlier? Because one of the things that's so unique about these hires is that there's a small pool, right? Like most jobs you could hire for, you know, at any company, there are probably thousands of people in, you know, the United States, the world who could, you know, be qualified, apply, have the experience.

Whereas like, you kind of, you have a very small pool of everyone who coaches in college and everybody who coaches in the NFL that you could go with. And so it raises actually an interesting question of, you know, how do you, if you want to be the person who finds the out. track over time everyone in these roles because certainly possible it's a it's again it's you know a limited um group of people um but yeah i think you raise an interesting question there and what it makes me think of next is i do think one of the the areas where the league has been helpful um is in having an accelerator program so that people more people are getting exposure um specifically to the folks who would hire them, right, to owners, and putting out a comprehensive list every year of, hey, all of, you know, all of these people are folks that you ought to look at.

And it's a long list. Stock market concept with these guys is you alluded to earlier, your name could be hot one minute and then two years later, maybe not so much. So there is the, hey, you know, get it well, the getting's good and all that. but I look at a guy like Jeff Albrick, usually that stock market seems dictated by the team's success. You know what I mean? And I don't know, Jeff.

This isn't me pumping his tires or anything. Like, you know, half the time, I don't want to be one of those media members, but I just picked his name. There aren't a lot of guys who get credit for what their units have done, especially within the context of the struggles that they might have incurred, you know, trying to do their jobs because of the other side of the ball or the teams lack of success.

Why do you think that is? Do you think it's just the answer's as easy as people aren't hiring coaches from bad teams? Or do you think that that's an area that people should look more? I do. I think that that is a struggle that so many people, you know, in the NFL faces. If you're on a bad team, people kind of feel like you're a loser. And if you're on a good team, people feel like you're a winner. And, you know, and most people, they work in the NFL long enough, you're going to be all winning teams and you're going to be losing teams and you're still you.

But, like, you can't. I know what you mean. Yeah. I mean, you're James Hall. You know what you mean. They thought we were losers. Poor James went from Detroit to St. Louis. So, yeah.

It's a perfect example, though. I mean, yeah, you know, like I think for players, it can be the same way. You know, obviously, we're going to get. more jobs because there's more job openings and you know you can leave your bad team in free agency and you can differentiate but i feel bad for some of these coordinators and coaches who are just stuck in in tough spots when it comes to the pre you know consultation process for you or whatever you want to call it like you're getting to know the coach and trying to figure out where the blind spots are maybe or laying out what an owner or that group is going to want to hear what do you think are the most

surprising things that because it's been described to me like the modern day NFL coach is a CEO more than just a ball coach what are those things that that yeah what are you what are those things that might surprise people that that that that make up that list of skills or responsibilities sure I mean to me and again because my focus is solely on that ask right like I'm I'm not here to tell anybody about football like that's what that's what your expertise is. that's not my job. So in thinking about what are those other areas, I think a lot of it is managing people.

So again, like depending on the background that you've come from, and I'll use a GM example, right? If you have come up as, especially if you come up from a road scouting perspective, you may not have even been in the building, right? Like you have literally been like totally out on your own. and you're coming back in for meetings. And so you may not, and this isn't a knock on people. It's just that you may not have had the experience until much later in your career,

if you've risen to like a director of college scouting or something like that, of even managing other people and even managing office dynamics and politics. And like, that's not, politics isn't like a bad word. Like everywhere that has human beings has politics, right? every NFL team, just like every other workplace, has politics and your ability to lead and manage people, lead and manage departments. I think, you know, for an average fan, they might only think about that job as picking players when it's in fact, like, you're probably overseeing the medical team, athletic training, the fields, you're, and people, you know, underestimate, like,

grahamkeeping's, like, actually, like, a big thing, like, travel logistics, player engagement. There's all these other departments that you're responsible for leading, that again, until very late in your career, maybe never before you get that job, you have any experience running. And then I also think, and this part is probably more obvious, but dealing with the media is now a really big part of these jobs. And so I think people's skill level with that is important, especially on the head coach side, probably even more than the GM side. That's a huge part.

And it's not that you're going to pick somebody to be your head coach because they're good at the media if they're a loser, right? Like, you've got to win. But it's a lot easier on your franchise if the guy wins and he's good with the media. Right. No question. Speaking of people that don't seem to like the media, my old ball coach, Bill Belichick, if I was Bill Belichick, what do you think the best?

biggest challenges are for me in this process or another way of asking what has changed since bill last interviewed for a head coaching job what were interviews like in 2000 or 1999 uh well i was graduating for my school so i'm not 100% i'm sure some of the i'm sure some of the you know because didn't you get to work with al davis i did while he was still around and like what do people say about how much less exhaustive or more exhaustive it was or what was that process like when did these things get guardrails you know like the process you know i'm i'm sure there was a wild west period where it was like a lot easier to just pick up the phone and call a coach week seven and be like hey you know on your dial up and be like hey what do you think you want to work for us next year

um yeah i mean i think that there are probably some people who would question whether or not you know that potentially still happens based on on outcomes. But yeah, a lot has changed. I will say, I have loved every Bill Belichick press conference I've ever watched for the record. I actually think he's great and super entertaining. And so I, you know, and I love a Marshall and Lynch press conference. So I'm not saying you have to like be, you know, super sweet,

softy all the time with the media. And this is the other piece. I think some of this is like more important in the hard times, right? Like if you're winning, you can be a jerk, right? And get away with it. And, you know, when you're nine and eight or whatever, you know, like, then it starts being like, oh, I don't know. Like, I don't know.

So some of this is also like, how do you put yourself in the best position for your own longevity so that you're, so that you are in a good space that you get. the benefit of the doubt, right? That you have enough time to accomplish what you are capable of accomplishing. And yes, I think a lot has changed probably since the last time that he interviewed. For one thing, there were no Zoom interviews because there was no Zoom. Like, shoot, three years ago, four years ago. Exactly, yeah, a lot has changed.

And, yeah, I think you asked what would be the biggest impediment. And honestly, I think the biggest impediment is probably that we do still live in a world where, you know, ageism is a real thing. And so I honestly think that would probably be the hardest, you know, the hardest piece. And that he has such a rich history at one club that if you're another club, I think it's like hard to sort of be like, okay, what's our vision and our future? because everyone associates Bill with the Patriots. Yeah. Yeah, no, no question. And then it's way too easy to look and say, well, you know,

his winning percentage when he was with this team. I'm like, well, that sample size is so small. You know, it's hard to draw any sort of conclusion other than the guy is one of the absolute greatest football minds to ever walk the earth. And, yeah, so it's complicated for somebody like that. You talked, you touched on age. Um, let's talk about everybody's favorite topic, which is, um, equity in hiring. And, you know, some people don't want to hear about it, but it's, it's still an issue. And, uh, I, you know,

I've done podcasts where I've grappled with the shortcomings of the Rooney rule. And, you know, like, I just wonder, I know we're not there yet. What's it going to take? And what are some of the positives of some of the changes they made in the last couple years and where could they improve? Yeah, I do think the biggest changes happen in the last couple of years and it is starting to yield results and obviously while I have to wait and see a few more years to get more data is the accelerator program because I think a lot of us in the league who've been around a long time had been feeling like what people need is exposure because it's not a pipeline issue, right? It's not that there are not good coaches or GMs out there, potential GMs out there.

It's that, you know, you've got to, you've, everyone, and this is not specific to the NFL, right? This is how all human beings behave and our brains are hardwired unless we are consciously overtaking it. We all are naturally drawn to people who are like us. We are all drawn to hire people who we feel comfortable around. where we're like, oh, you know, I can talk to that person. I can have a beer with that person. I, you know, I feel, you know, it's a fit, right? All these, you know, code words, et cetera.

And there's nothing intrinsically wrong with the fact that all human beings have implicit bias, but it's our responsibility to then figure out how to overcome that. And I do think that one of the biggest things is exposure, right? It's like, oh, yeah, I remember so-and-so that I met at that program. Or you just, getting that opportunity to, you know, getting that opportunity to, just kind of hang out's not the right word but like network and just have small talk and it allows people to get more comfortable so that the next time you are in a hiring cycle you're like yeah i know this person i like this person hopefully you know that interview you know you can it's

even smoother right so i do think that the exposure piece is important i think the runy rule has been important historically you know at the 49ers the 49ers were the first team um to expand that to the whole business side to have diverse late interviewing of candidates and then to also flip that and have it on the other side of the table for the interviewers that there needs to be people on the interviewer panel who are people of color and women and I think we're chatting earlier about who's in the room and I do think that we're starting to see that trend of having more people in the room and I think having a diverse slate in the room in the decision making process process is going to be hopefully a big part of improving those outcomes.

I was watching the Antonio Pierce process. And from the beginning, I'm biased. I know Antonio a little bit, but I also just, I love it when a player gets an opportunity. And you can see what a differentiating factor that player can be. White or black, Dan Campbell, Antonio Pierce. Vrabel. Brable. I mean, it means something.

You know, and I thought it was awesome that you had this interim head coach who was in a situation where I'll just say this. I don't know if he gets the job if they didn't mess up the Rich Versacea thing, right or wrong. I think you should get the job. But I think that helped. It was like the perfect storm. But then they're like, well, we still got to interview. We still got to, you know, like we've got to go through the process. Was that kind of unique?

Like, where you're like, hey, we've got a coach who I think is the guy. And did the Rooney Rule apply? Some people were asking me to, they still have to go out and interview and fulfill the guidelines of the Rooney Rule, even if the interim head coach is minority. So two things come to mind here. One, I think, and this is me sort of speaking personally, I think it's actually really important to follow process no matter who the candidate is. because I've had even like in my, in hiring processes, not involving these folks, but involving folks on the business side where people will say, oh, I have somebody and she's already a woman or like, I have somebody, they're already a person of color.

And it's like, it's not about, hey, I found somebody who's a person of color and so I'm going to skip the whole process. Like following process is about how you can only get the right results over time. if you always follow the process. Right. You know, like, it gets the whole, like, if you want championship culture, like Bill Walsh, always say, right? Like, you have to, you know, do everything like a champion.

And so, like, when you come to a hiring process, you're not going to skip over it just because you're like, oh, I think we got the end result that we wanted. No, like, we're going to follow it every time because that's the only way to ensure that over time you get the right person. Like, every time and that you have the right DEI results. So I do think it's important even when you think you have the person and even if they're a person of color to interview multiple people. Like you don't know what you're going to learn from that process until you go through it. Well, yeah. And like as a side note, the guys who are getting valuable opportunities to interview, you know, who are people of color and who are, you know, oftentimes former players or whoever. I, like, I think the Raiders going.

through that, I can still see the value in it. But for people at home, you know, I got some questions like, do they still have to go through that? I'm like, well, I really don't know the answer. You know, I'm not sure, but it seems like that's the right thing to do for multiple reasons. Yeah. And I do love the trend of more former players as head coaches in the NFL or in really any executive position or any position on the business side or the football side. in the NFL and I think that's something that 20 years ago I wondered like why aren't there more former players and like you said I don't think it matters what ethnicity they are but also if we're seeing more former players based on the demographics of the NFL that should ultimately

yield better results and it and in the NBA you see a ton of former players who are head coaches right and I think yes there are differences between the NBA and the NFL um but it and kind of what the process of becoming a head coach. But I love that. And I think one that you didn't mention, but you probably met the, I know you mentioned before, Jim Harbaugh.

You know, like these, they're great, great track record. You know, we were just talking about, okay, what are some commonalities

among some great coaches? Obviously not every great coach was a player, but former players have a pretty good track record. Doug Peterson. Being head coaches. Doug Peterson, because we just went through the other way. We just went through it the other day where somebody on the show was like,

hey, you know, and don't forget this, Jim Harbaugh was a high performing NFL quarterback. And, you know, it seems so obvious to people, there are very few. I went back and looked former quarterbacks in modern football that played at a high level in the NFL and were head coaches. And I think, you know, it's kind of a cheat coat if the guy's got it all because he's literally, been the most important player on the field. The other question I have, as it relates to being an offensive coach, being a defensive coach, I know it's not a pipeline issue because there are great coaches, as you talked about, but there does seem to be, I don't know how to phrase it, but there seems to be a design flaw

or an intentional design flaw where it's like, well, we're not hiring as many defensive coaches these days, you know, it would seem that a lot of black coaches get funneled into when you talk to some younger black coaches, like, hey, I don't get the opportunities to be in, they guard the QB room, you know, the offensive line room, how many black offensive line coaches are there in the league, how many black quarterback coaches are there in the league? It's just certain position groups get hired to be coordinators more often than others. And if, if, if, you know, if, you know, the machine is feeding, you know, one, you know, is, is, is, is feeding, you know, the offensive coaches. That's going to be a problem over time. Agreed. And actually, this brings up another name.

We were just talking about, like, names that are hot and then weren't. And, you know, former QV to your point, Byron Lefich, right? Like, there's somebody who, like, the name was hot. But I'm like, I didn't hear that name in the last, like, two years. Right. Yeah. So. So. I didn't even know where he is. I was literally, I was like, God, do I know nothing about football suddenly because I'm like, wait, don't worry about it because it's supposed to be my job. And I don't know where Byron left which is. If you're out there, Byron, tell us where you are.

Yeah, so we can be like hire this guy. I mean. Yeah, but there is no question. The trend is towards offensive side of the ball, QB coaches. And I do think the positive there is like the league has caught on to this issue and is focusing on how do we get more people into quarterback coach's roles so that that pipelines into offensive coordinators because we know that

pipelines into head coaching roles. How do people feel about the comp pick deal when it comes to the Rooney Rule? Is that like kind of a... So controversial. It is a little bit. I mean, and I want what's best for whoever wants to get the job. So it's not really for me to say whether or not it's a good thing or it, you know, objectifies you, you know, kind of in a sense professionally where...

you know, you're worth something in a, in a, in a, in a non-personal sense. It's like, well, let me get this guy elevated because we're going to get something out of it. Like, what have you seen when it comes to those trends? So what I would say is it, I don't have a final opinion on this one. I think it'll be interesting over time to see like, did this move the needle or does it, is it, and I am wary to use the word distraction because I think it's, used in our industry, like, for so many things that aren't, like, appropriate, but, like, is it causing more discussion than progress? And I don't know where that'll ultimately come out. I understand and think it is intriguing that you're incentivizing people to elevate folks,

which I think is a good thing, because what you're trying to counterbalance that I think has really probably not talked about enough and is really problematic is that the anti-tampering policy is used so much to block talent from growing. And so if you step back and you're in the position of wanting the whole league to be the best that it can, and not just the most diverse and inclusive that it can, but literally just you want the best talent to rise to these positions, then we should be creating as free a market as we can. Right. But that is always like, oh, actually no, because if you really have to temporary policy,

like you are able to really prevent talent from going up and out a lot of the time. And there have thankfully been rule changes in the last few years that have helped tweak this at the top, meaning that you now, you can't block somebody from becoming a number two. And you now have to designate who that number two is. And that's progress. And I love that. But what it doesn't fix is that in those whole early years of your career that could be very formative and important for your growth, you have no, like, somebody can just lock you up. And unless you choose to bet on yourself and decide that you're going to let your contract expire, you don't want to keep signing extensions, then you really don't.

Somebody can just say, hey, they can't interview you. And you might not even know that. You don't even know that somebody put in a request for you. That's the wild part to me. Like, that to me is crazy. I mean, it's all crazy anyways because I know you can't name names, but I know there are coaches in the NFL at different times that have had reputations for kind of hoarding their guys and blocking progress for those assistant coaches.

But on top of it, to not know that, to not know your worth in effect, you're playing with with your hands tied behind your back yeah it's nuts you know what else i thought was nuts hannah was uh when when vrable was asked well i don't know how that went down but if i had to guess if they were like hey could we trade you it and he was like yeah fuck off or whatever he would have said uh i like i did not know they had no trade clauses these coaches You can't trade a head coach without their permission? So again, because coaches and everyone other than players is not subject to a collective bargaining agreement, right?

They're not in a union. Everyone's individually negotiating. So it doesn't mean that everyone has that, right? But it means that he negotiated that. He negotiated properly. And so, yeah, I mean, and the irony is, you know, most workers in America, you're employer cannot trade you somewhere else, right? And I get why from a player perspective, you'd be like, hey, what the heck? I don't have a no trade clause. But like, that's the

tradeoff of having a union, right? It's the tradeoffs of collective bargaining is you have decided, even if you didn't personally decide, you decided collectively with your, you know, 1,200 person brethren as a union. Like, all right, like, all right, like, if you get this, we're going to, you know, agree, yes, there can be trades. of a player's contract. And I always, I, I think that, like, language that we use is important. And I, because I just hate the word, like, a person got traded because it's a contract got traded, not a person.

Because, you know, no one can own you. But, like, you can sign a contract that says, like, somebody else could be assigned to this contract. Yeah. That's so interesting. And just the last thing with, with Ben and Slowick. Ben Johnson today saying, hey, I'm staying put. Slowick staying put.

Like, I've always wondered why more coordinators don't look at things, you know, to say. And it's easy for me to say because I'm not trying to map out my family's future. And these opportunities are great. But I've always been somebody that's like, play the long game. And if you have the, if you have the, you know, the safety net to do that as a coach or you have a situation that you feel good about, it's a lot easier to not jump at that. that job like ben johnson that carolina job sounded like it looks scary to him last year and i would be afraid as well this is just me talking to work for david tepper that's just me talking but um today

him saying hey i don't want to go to washington i don't want to go to seattle i want to stay right where i am and bobby slow at getting a raise okay like that that one to me i'm i'm surprised we don't see that more often because these owners have big pocket books if i had a dynamic play caller in my building, I would be throwing the kitchen sink at that play caller because there's no cap for hiring coaches, is there? Correct. Like, are we going to see that more in the future where, or does it go on more than we know, where people are like, hey, we don't want to let this guy leave.

He's going to be paid like a head coach or sort of like a head coach without ruffling the feathers of the headman who's, who's still wants the biggest contract. What I would say is, yeah, people are going to pay for somebody they want to keep. Yeah. Yeah, like that's, yes, people are going to get paid more if they think you're, you could go somewhere else. But also, like, I think all of those decisions like you were saying like, oh, like, I'm surprised you don't see more people kind of decide to stay put. The conversation we're just having, we're like, you don't know if your name's going to be hot again in a year. It's a very personal decision about where you are, how much you like it, what you think the chances are that the team's going to continue to get better, what you think your future opportunities are.

and what you think of the current opportunities available. You know, like, you may feel like the ones that are open don't feel like the right fit to you for whatever reason. And that's not necessarily a knock on them, but, like, that's just not what interests you. And so you may want to be clear publicly that you've decided to stay put. Right. Because you don't want people thinking you just didn't get any of those open.

Right. It's a safe face thing. Like, I broke up with them, you know. Right. And that's not a bad, like, I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all. It's just that, like, weird. Like, if you do get passed over in multiple cycles, that can unfortunately influence the media and public perception.

So it makes sense to be clear when you've decided not to be in the running. Well, this is how my brain thinks. You know, like Ben, who I'm a big fan of, doesn't get the job, suppose, or doesn't decide to leave. You know, people are talking about he's asking for all this money. It could be a number of things. He could have scared people off with the, with the, with the, with the contract talks, he could have not gotten the job.

Maybe his name's not as hot as people thought. Or maybe it is as simple as he knows and he's made that, that determination along the lines of what we talked about, which what drives that stock market? It's the success of your team, right? And he's saying, I don't want to put words in his mouth or thoughts in his head, but he's saying, we're going to still be good. Like what's going to change?

If I'm still in the building, if Jared's still here, if Dan's still here, we could be right back here next year and maybe a job. I would like more would be open and juxtaposed to Canales who you know like again I'm just reading the tea leaves a coach like him who a year ago wasn't on the radar you got to jump at the opportunity it may not be perfect but you got to jump at it and that's the you know there's a couple ways this could go for coaches you know it's there's no right answer right it sounds like there's no chart that you look at and you're like if if this happens I do this you got to you got to make judgment calls, which is pretty interesting. And it's okay for people to love what they do. Like,

it's okay, even if somebody said, you know what, I actually have no interest in being a head coach. I actually love being a coordinator and like, this is what I want to do. Like, that's okay too. Is that not like the most sane thing somebody could say? I know you're in the business of prepping people to become head coaches, but I think it's crazy. I think it's crazy to want to be a head coach. Like when I've seen the stress that they live under, their, their schedules, like, they're, their, like Steve Spagnolo, who I'm a huge fan of, was my head coach in St. Louis, me and James, and obviously didn't work out as a head coach, but singing his praises every week because he's one of the best coordinators we've seen in modern football. And you just wonder, the guy that

was sleeping on his sofa and wouldn't see his wife Maria for like days on end, maybe he likes being around his family. You know, maybe he likes being the coordinator. Maybe he likes not worrying about how many timeouts he has. Maybe he likes worrying about not worrying about training camp schedule or which buses were taken here. All the things that we, it's perfectly sane to say, hey, I like being a ball coach. Hannah, I really appreciate the time. This is so interesting to me.

Can't wait to get you back on to expand the conversation because I think it could go on and on. But thank you. Thank you very much for letting us in on what goes on. My pleasure, Chris. Make Little Caesars, the official pizza. sponsor of the NFL part of your game day. Order online during the pizza pizza pregame all day on NFL game days and Pro Bowl Sunday and get ready for some football and fun.

Choose your favorite Little Caesar's pizza or pick the toppings you crave. Either way, you win. And speaking of winning, everyone scores with convenient delivery or our in-store pizza portal pickup. So grab some friends and enjoy a few slices during the game. Put some in the fridge. I like cold pizza. just want to say this one thing before i get to mailbag i forgot to say in the open patrick mahomes has given me something as a media member that i don't get often you want to guess what that is guys he did he retweeted greenlight is that it did he yeah what did he retweet yeah we don't get that often oh that's dope supposedly kyle actually

tagged him in the video of me freaking out when he threw that ball to mbs and he like like love the video so so you know my homes you're the man but but here's the deal he gives me an opportunity to be a fan i can't tell you how different that is from my everyday experience playing in the league for 11 years you get desensitized to the the fan aspect of it your loyalty a lot of people fans sometimes don't understand they're more loyal to organizations than i am you know because they haven't dealt with the business side they haven't seen their friends cut you know changing teams like when you're a football player if you're lucky enough to be somewhere for a long time you do have an allegiance to that fan base to that city to that team but it's more of a business

you are an independent contractor and i have a great amount of passion for my you know some of the places i played and you know all of them on different levels um but that doesn't mean i'm going to blindly followed the organization. Every turn doesn't mean I'm going to pump their tires every chance I get. This doesn't mean that I can be a fan like a lot of you guys. I think for me to be a fan, it takes something special. And going to inside the NFL today, I could not get the smile off my face. Not because I want to bet this weekend or because I got to do a victory lap on the Chiefs,

but because I got to watch and listen to a mic'd up Patrick Mahomes, watch him run down the field screaming, hear him screaming after that MBS reception. You know, all the work that he's put in since last year, through all the ups and the downs, it all came out in that moment. And, you know, if you see a still photo of Patrick Mahomes with his neck in the air

with that kind of you know he's built like a damn caddy on a golf course but he's flexing and it's the most terrifying thing in the world because that guy's a cold-blooded killer I got to watch and listen to everything he said on the field and I could not wipe the smile off my face

because it is very rare as sports fans that we get to witness greatness like this do you know how rare it is to see a team that played in the Super Bowl last year, that won the Super Bowl last year, get back to the Super Bowl the very next year. I don't think people understand the challenges. And when you look at the teams that have done it

over the past 20, 25 years, very few of them, actually none, have weathered the storms that the Chiefs have this year. Go look at the teams that got back the next year after they won it. Go look at their records. 13 and 3 is not without challenges. A lot of those challenges are under the surface. You know, if you're on those teams, you know, every day is a challenge.

But for the Chiefs to go on these stretches of mediocrity this year, to lose to the Raiders who didn't throw a pass for three quarters. Like these are new lows. Playing at Arrowhead this year was a nightmare for them. When have you ever heard of something like that? For them to overcome all this and be back where they are, To see Patrick Mahomes on this stage, I can't help it. I'm a fan.

And I love getting to be a fan. It brings out a different side of me. I mean, like most times I'm watching a game, I've picked the side, I'm gambling. I've picked the side because I've broken the game down and I've told you what I think is going to happen. I want to be right. There are very few instances that I can just sit back and be a fan. And I think it's awesome. And this is a unique path that they've taken this year.

and I think everybody should just take a minute whether you hate Patrick Mahomes or you're tired of the Chiefs because of the new Patriots and you can point to any dynasty that has ever happened in pro sports there was a moment where everybody was like, yeah, fuck these guys.

You know, before the Patriots were hated, they were the team that beat the greatest show on turf and we were all united in watching them do that, right? At that point, I don't have any St. Louis allegiances. I was a kid who had a snow day the next day and played, you know, snuck out of the house at night.

There was, you know, like went out and smoked cigars after the game. Like, I was a kid. I didn't have, I didn't have any allegiances. I was just a kid and I was rooting for the Patriots to beat the Rams. Three, four years later, you're rooting for the Eagles to beat the Patriots, you know? And when I got in the league, there was a moment with the Patriots where I was able to be a fan. because every year January 1st, January 3rd, January 4th, my season was over and I enjoyed watching the playoffs. I wasn't one of these people.

Certainly it hurt my feelings at times to see Seattle in the dance, see teams that we competed with getting their day. But I very rarely during the playoffs could not watch and enjoy and appreciate. Something's changed for me in the media. The Patriots were the same way for me in the middle of their run. you know uh they weren't a division rival they weren't a team that that was in the way because we weren't going anywhere i just sat back and i can remember watching their super bowls and marveling at it and pulling for them when they played the giants because i really do like to see greatness in real time because i understand that you know next time you see a patrick behomes who knows when

that's going to be and you said the same thing with brady and then patrick mahomes comes along who's to say there'll be a third. I think it's really cool to watch Patrick go on this journey. So I know some of you are puking all over your smartphones. You know, you're out for a run and you're just projectile vomiting because I'm complimenting Patrick Mahomes. But I don't hate the cheese. I just can't. I know how hard it is and I appreciate what they've been able to accomplish.

So listen. Little bit of mailbag for you guys. I'm just going to go through a couple rapid fire. Last week, people really liked the fan thing where I got to, where I talked to some of the fan bases and dress them directly and told you what I thought about you and, you know, which teams that I would actually consider playing for. The 49ers, let's do the 49ers this week because they were playing in the Super Bowl

and they were division rival. And like when I tell you, some of the moments I was most alive was at Candlestone. Park, dude. And my, just telling you, doing hard things on a big stage, there's nothing like it.

And there's nothing harder than playing an offensive line like they had with Greg Roman and Alex Boone and Mike Ayupati and Joe Staley and, and even the right tackle who I hated. And we got into it every game. Anthony Davis. How could I forget? You know, bro. There was a level of appreciation.

for the battles we all had in the NFC West, whether it was, whether it was Seattle or San Francisco, I loved playing on the road in those cities, trying to meet that challenge, trying to meet the physicality of those teams. Frank Gore, Frank Gore, my dad this week saw Bob Weir, obviously on the sideline, I posted that on Instagram. I was very proud that Bob Weir knew who I was.

Maybe my dad made that up, but I know for a fact that the second story he told me of which I'm very proud is true Frank Gore who's one of my favorite players that I ever played against came up to my dad and said your son was a motherfucker I tried to I tried to cut him and he gave me a concussion he was a motherfucker man like they just they just don't talk about him enough and I know Frank said that because he came up to me with his son at the Super Bowl

right in front of him it was like dude you gave me a fucking concussion I never got to tell you that. Frank Gore is one of my favorite players. Anquan Bolden was an absolute nightmare. I loved playing against the Niners because of the challenge. You had to, and it also, when we played the Niners, I looked around and I knew who was made of something. You know, it was an easy way to weed out the people who weren't down for a fist fight on your team because that team was going to bring it to you. And at the old games at Candlestick, and I don't know, maybe today if I played at Levi's, It's a gentrified version of a candlestick. I used to send my mom and my then-girlfriend Meg to the game and tell them,

you can't wear any Rams gear, and I'm sending you with an off-duty cop. Because not to say the San Francisco fans are bad people, but they will throw down. And they do not like fans from other teams being at the stadium. Much like The Link, much like some other places, I just felt better. with somebody who could handle themselves in the stands with my wife and my mom. But I love that field. Candlestick, the locker room, was the closest distance to the parking lot of any locker room that I ever played in. It's one of those old stadiums that looks like he's about to fall down.

The infrastructure in these stadiums is not great. Just opposed to going to Jerry's World where you've got to ride a bus for three minutes underground to get to where they drop you off to get in the locker room. Like, it's too much for me. You pull up to candlestick. There's fans in the back lot, tailgating. You get off the bus. They're close enough to talk to you.

You walk in the double doors and three feet to the right is the locker room. It's just a really unique experience. And it's part of the reason why I love those old stadiums. Long story short, what I wanted to talk about with the Niners is a couple things. First, Vernon Davis is going to be in a movie here. soon with Morgan Freeman. So I just wanted to point that out. Vernon Davis, part of the reason my neck's so fucking sore right now is Vernon Davis

in a six technique for a few years. But Vernon is a successful actor. He's going to be in a movie with Morgan Freeman. And I think that's pretty cool. Now, my big story about going to play the Niners, by the way, Vernon's playing a serial killer in that movie, and that checks out, is the time I went to play the Niners. And we stayed at a hotel called the St. Francis Hotel. Okay.

And I don't know if you guys believe in ghosts at home or you guys on the podcast believe in ghosts, but I believe in ghosts. I think it's a real thing. The St. Francis Hotel gave me the hebie-jeeves the minute we checked in. I was like, this fucking place is haunted. I have like a radar for that type of thing. I just always have. When I was a little kid, I had an imaginary friend named Nisi.

And legit, my mom was like, we need to move because like I'm pointing to people in the room and that sort of thing. We live in this old house in Redondo Beach, and I'm pretty certain it was haunted. We move across the country to Virginia to a house that was built in 1860. Certainly haunted, okay? So I have a pretty good sense of this stuff. Matt, you've been at my house. It's haunted.

My parents actually told me when I was a kid that your parents' house was like an old mental institution. So I think the term mental institution is being used a little loosely. there. I think it was a home for handicapped people, um, which kind of paint your parents in a bad light, doesn't it? I mean, it was, um, hand information, you know, isn't it was there were wheelchairs. There were ramps and things like that. But I guess like back in the day, the treatment of said people was probably pretty fucked up. And, you know, if I was, if I was rolling around for, you know, some length of time and ended up a ghost, I would want to haunt the fuck out of the place that treated me like that. So yeah, like, yeah.

Like, I did feel like there were some, there were some like, uh, Professor X types ghosts wheeling around my house growing up. And, um, when I got to the, the hotel in San Francisco, St. Francis built in like, you know, the 1800s or something. Like it was an old building. They put me up in a room. I think it was on the, the 12th floor. Um, and when I tell you, I got in that room and I felt like somebody was in the room,

100%. I know that's not a thing that. my hair standing on end just talking about it but i know it's not a thing that like you know you want to hear with these ghost stories somebody pinned me on the bed or there was a strange smell or like there was a loud noise or somebody was whispering to me it wasn't like that i just checked in and felt uneasy i felt like somebody was sitting in the room with me watching me and i have chills just talking about it and i settle in i'm studying you know for for the next day and i'm watching something i'm probably watching mario lopez on extra on loop you know because that's what happened

when you check into a hotel room you just lay on the bed it's like extra extra 45 minutes later it's just mario lopez um and all of a sudden the water turns on in my fucking bathroom the water turns on in my bathroom no one's in the room with me so i sprint to the bathroom and shut the bathroom door i returned to the bed and i make sure the phone's not still working because i think ghosts can like fuck with the phone lines and that sort of thing. And immediately I call our head of security. And I'm like, dude, this room is haunted. I need out of this room.

I'm telling you, it's a bad deal. Don't want to be here. And he's like, Chris, you're high. Or whatever he said. He was like, just relax. Listen, if in two hours at 11 o'clock, you're not happy with the room, I will change the room. So I get ready to go to bed. and I lay down

and I roll over and all of a sudden I'm getting ready to fall asleep and the room just lights up fucking TV turns on okay and at this point I'm like I run out in the hallway like I'm just standing in the hallway

dialing the team security guy it's 11 o'clock at night actually might have been later and I'm like hey more bad stuff happened I need you get me to another room so he gets me to another room the room feels way better no no hebi-jeebies nothing crazy to report one a.m i'm getting ready to go to bed it's not ideal it's one a m on the west coast is fucking three a m in st louis and i'm tired and the

whole thing but i start googling i start googling the st francis hotel okay let me tell you about the fatty rbuckle scandal okay fatty rbuckle of course silent film comedian uh through a labor party you know how those those labor parties can be in in in in a suite of rooms overlooking the corner of Gary and Powell streets and all hell broke loose according to the prosecutors this is 1921 fatty raped actress Virginia rap with a bottle causing her to bleed to death do you know what room that happened in that 1219 I'm just telling you, bro, this shit's real. I lost a lot of sleep that night because of fatty Arbuckle.

Piece of shit, obviously, a rapist, and not that talented. Because how talented do you have to be to be in a fucking silent movie? I would never say that out loud staying at the St. Francis Hotel. But that was a real thing, dude. You know, like it confirmed everything for me. So if you're from San Francisco, I don't know why I wanted to tell the story. It was the only story I have from the road when I went to play San Francisco. I've got other stories.

But that place is haunted. Like no bullshit. If you've been in there, bad stuff going on in San Francisco. So the St. Francis Hotel is the same hotel where Sarah Jane Moore, an FBI employee at the time, fired two shots at Gerald Ford in 1975. No way. So also ghosts. and attempted presidential assassinations.

You know, and I also think whenever you stay in a hotel, there's a chance of somebody kicked the bucket in your room and you don't even know it. You know, I just, uh, I don't want to. People had sucks there. Yeah, which is almost worse, um, depending on, you know, what they look like and where they were, you know.

I'm trying to turn my desk into a business center and it was, you know, it was a cunnelingus fest there. two nights ago, somebody in for a convention cheating on their wife in my room at the Weston. I don't know what's worse. Somebody dying in my hotel room or that, but I feel like that happens more than you think. I was on Reddit. People say it's like you got like a 1% chance that somebody died in your hotel room at any given time. And I've stayed at 100 hotels. Did you mention that Al Jolson also died in that same hotel room? No, who's the fuck is Al Jolson?

He's the silent film star, right? So if you've been to the St. Francis Hotel and you're a Niners fan, you know, like, I don't know if you were fucking with me that night or what, but it was real. Okay, what are you benching slash what's my workout routine? I just want to tell you something.

When I was younger, I thought, I'm never going to be like my dad. I was like, not going to happen. In fact, like, part of the reason I retired early was because I didn't want to be like my dad and by be like my dad I mean physically I mean just you know guy played 13 years of old football you know where he was playing a three-man front they had training camp double days for months it felt like listen to his stories I don't know how much of them are true how much of them were like walking uphill in the snow kind of thing but I mean it was

it was it was brutal and when you hear about some of the injuries he had and the operations and all that stuff. Like when I was a kid, I didn't want any part of that, you know, seeing my dad come home the way he came home. You know, I'd hear stories about him shattering his hand and like playing through it. And then my mom and him having to go to the hospital and him just throwing up all over the place from the pain in the elevator. Like that was, that's one of many stories I heard.

and watching him after football not be able to do some of the things that I feel like other dads could do with their kids. And I don't blame him at all. But like I'd love to climb Kelly with my dad. There's no chance that's ever going to happen. You know, just going hiking sometimes or playing pickup basketball or, you know, like he wore his arm out throwing a little. It's incredible to me that he was able to pitch BP for as long as he did. I think we just talked about that. But for the most part, there was a whole bunch that he couldn't do because of football.

Not only during his career, but after his career. And I just didn't want to be like that. So I retired early and I felt like, hey, you know, I had injuries. I was pretty beat up. But I don't think I realized how much St. Louis took a toll on me over eight years, playing in constant four-minute mode on that turf. You know, I think my body is worse than I thought it would be. at this point in my life and you know you're talking about bench pressing i haven't gotten under a

bench in over a year there are things that i can't do anymore that seems so basic to people that i just can't do and you know like i'll do 30 pushups i was trying to do like a hundred pushups a day for a stretch right like a little prison workout thing and the results are great and everything and i eat right and all that stuff but my shoulder's so bad and my next so bad that if I do 30 pushups, I'm going to be shut down for the week. You know, like, that's where I am right now. I hurt my fucking shoulder playing flag football with my kids reaching for a flag. I ran a mile a couple weeks ago and halfway through the mile I had to stop because

of my shoulder. Okay. You know, like my knees messed up. I got to sleep with a giant couch cushion pillow between my legs because my back's so jacked up. You know, my wife tonight, I turned to talk to my kid. she's like your neck's messed up isn't it you know i even realize i couldn't turn my neck i can't turn my neck so the bottom line is football takes the toll man and you know as as much as you like to think

you're healthier because you're an athlete like the mileage just makes it so like a lot of my peers talk about i got a friend who who's got a power clean rack in his fucking garage no chance i could do that i got like i have to work around working out to the point where I lose all momentum when I get started. So, you know, when you look at a former athlete, you know, I also think one of the reasons that people, I've heard this a lot from people, you know, like, and one of my biggest pet peeves is people being like, you've lost so much weight, you're so skinny. First off, I'm 2.45. I could throw you through a fucking window. Okay.

Like, Ryan Clark today was like, you know, football Chris was scary. this guy you know i'm like right if i walk down the street you still get out of my way wouldn't you like i'm still 245 he's like yes you're a big man you're a big regular man but you're not what you were the point i'm making is i would love to be 255 in cocked diesel i would love to look like dwayne johnson i would like i would like to look like uh you know some of these guys but the mileage on my body does not allow me to take care of my body in this stage of my life so i have to do very finite things to take care of myself. Like I'm on a shoulder rehab plan right now that it's very exhaustive just to get to the

point where I can do pushups or, you know, normal shit. And so I think that's that's the untold toll of football. And like my head, I feel like my head's in a good spot. I feel, you know, sharp, clear, the whole thing. Like I don't think I have any head injuries. But as time goes on when you're when you're a former player, you have a bunch of little things that pop up that they scare you because you're like, could this be football or is this just getting older? Is this just, is this just something somebody else down the street deals with, whether it's

a sleep disturbance or a strange pain or numbness in your leg or all those things are bigger red flags to former athletes because, you know, you know what you did for so long. And so yeah, the weight thing, people are like, hey, you look skinny. Why aren't you jacked anymore? I'm like, I can't get through a week in the weight room. So, yeah, that's a good question. It's a fair question. I'm not as strong as you think I am. Like, I can throw you around, but if you got me in the weight room,

there's a bunch of things I can't do. I can't go do yoga. I'm intimidated to go do yoga because I'm going to go in there and be like, I can't do that. I can't do that. I can't do that. It's a bunch of soccer moms doing downward dog, and I can't get in downward dog.

For instance, you know, like, that's fucked up. I don't want to be in those group. settings. And the worst thing about being a former athlete is anytime you get in a group setting to work out with other people, it's like the highlight of their day. They want to, they want to poke holes in you. They want to, they want to outperform you. They want to question why you can't do this. I could do that. Why can't you do that? Like, I don't want to deal with that shit. So you end up having to work out alone in a garage and you have to make your own program and and do the best you can with a with a with a with a with a beat up body i mean that's i don't know

maybe some guys are still in great shape there's some guys that just Kyle is built for for war like his body is so Kyle has a lot of imperfections and he has some injuries that he's dealt with but i'm pretty sure that he probably feels a little bit more solid walking around day to day and Kyle doesn't have to lift any weights you look at Kyle Kyle's going to look like that no matter what he does to his body or with his body he's going to look like fucking he's going to look like an extra in the expendables i mean that's just how he looks and you know i'm just not that guy i'm i'm i'm i'm a talented guy i'm a big guy but if you knew the guys i went to work with and ran into every day it wouldn't be a surprise that i can't do push-ups anymore you did squat a pumpkin you know this

fall. Now when adrenaline's running, I mean, that's a thousand pound pumpkin. I was able to flip it on its side. Like, you know, like when if it, if you're trapped under a car and shit has hit the fan, like I might be able to get the key off the ground. Like, I don't know. I might have some, some superhuman strength in certain circumstances, but not like, not in the gym. And but talking about your dad, you do have something to look forward to. He was jumping off the rocket blue hole at 61. He did. You know, like, like and that's the fun thing is like my job as a son is to push my dad to continue to do the things that might be a little scary for him and you know the next chapter is getting him out on the river

he will not he's like fuck the river he's like look at that water he's like what's in that water you know like is the snakes is it fish like fuck that he's like do i actually have to get in the water i'm like dude city boy you know um guys it's been fun i hope you enjoyed hannah i thought she was great i hope to get her back on again we talk about some more of this coaching stuff when it pops up from time to time uh full house later this week bad back backie making myself possibly kyle um do us a favor it is that time of year where we need you to write the show for us there is not enough news to go around so please um when you see the link on social media to this podcast leave a reply tell us what you want to hear us talk about later in the

week we have a fucking tremendous guest matt thank you very much if that guest holds up friday you'll be very happy or sad depending on who your favorite team is to hear from this guy um he's one of my favorite coaches in the league and uh he's just getting started