Green Light with Chris Long - Malcolm Jenkins! NFL Leadership, Playing for Sean Payton & Eagles Super Bowl Memories

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

Malcolm Jenkins joins Chris Long today for an in-depth conversation about leadership, uncertainty and football. Malcolm’s new book, What Winners Won't Tell You: Lessons from a Legendary Defender, tells Malcolm’s journey from falling in love with football to his college career at Ohio State to NFL stardom and then the transition to his next phase of life. Chris and Malcolm detail their time together in Philly as well as their takes on NFL and professional leadership and uncertainty in life. (1:40) - Malcolm Jenkins talks his new book, What Winners Won't Tell You: Lessons from a Legendary Defender (15:45) - Transitioning from the NFL into his next chapter, NFL leadership and ayahuasca (47:30) - Malcolm’s football career, Eagles Super Bowl victory, Saints career with Sean Payton and Ohio State Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Do you hate Michigan, Atlanta, or the Cowboys more? And how would you order that? All right. I'm going to start with this second. It would go Cowboys because it's closer to the Michigan is a little further removed. Yeah, and you always beat them. Yeah, and I've always beat them. So it's never been a problem.

So I would say Cowboys, Michigan, and then the Falcons. Eight week down there. I actually have a line in my book, like a quote. I'm talking about how I would never play for Jerry Jones. I would retire before I play for the Cowboys. Welcome to the Greenlight podcast. A great insightful, in-depth interview today. It's Malcolm Jenkins, Chris's former teammate in Philadelphia.

The former NFL star talks about his new book, Leadership, Stories from the Locker Room with Chris, the transition out of football into their next careers, and a good bit of fellowship, just a whole bunch of fun. You'll please enjoy this great chat. Check it out on YouTube. Catch you later. All right, it's been a while since I had this dude on.

I figured I just wouldn't bother him in retirement. You know, he's writing books and shit. He's doing all types of stuff, as he always is. But we got him. He's on his book tour, and I got my copy the other day. And I haven't read a book in a while, but this could be the one. This could be the one. When my friends write books, I generally read them.

I'm excited. He's a brilliant cat. He was a great player. and one of my favorite teammates, Malcolm Jenkins. Welcome to show, buddy. Yeah, man, I appreciate you having me. You definitely got to read the book because you're in it, my friend. That's what I hear.

So, spoil it for me. Is it good or bad? What happened? You got to, now you got to go read to see it. Okay. And you're going to be, every time you see me, you're going to be like, yo, what happened in that part? And I'm going to, you know, you're not.

You know, I'm going to be seeing if you're mad at me or not. Like, you know, remember that time you got me on the sideline? Yeah, got some get back. Okay, good. All right, good. Well, I haven't heard about it yet, so I'm going to get in the book. I got a nice little drive later today. Dude, when did you decide to write a book?

Did you know you're going to write a book when we were playing or something in the back of the head? You know, I didn't know it was around 2021 is when I started the book. Like that training camp, I'm just sitting around and I'm like, I could kind of see the light at the end of the tunnel. Like, yeah, I don't know if I can make it through another training camp. I remember. And those thoughts just started to like make me reflect on the whole 13. years of my career. Then it went further to Ohio State and just all the things that have kind of brought me to where I am today. And I'm like, I know I have to tell my own story. You know how

this is an athlete. Most people tell your story for you. But most people don't get the purview of all of the things that go into making you who you are. And so I started that process, which was cool, but I was still playing. So I thought I needed a ghost writer. And that, just didn't work. We worked on that for maybe a year and a half and just couldn't get my voice. And about 30 days before the book was supposed to even, you know, go out. I had to make a decision. Either the book was going to get canceled or I needed to write it myself. And so, you know, me being me, I'm like, I'll do it myself. I kind of went into like a training camp mode, but really just got a chance to really distill down all of the things that I've learned and, like,

weave it into a narrative. That's not just a linear story. Like, hey, I went here, I did this, and I won. It's like, hey, we're going back and forth through time. So it's the past, it's the present. You'll get to see kind of like all of these characters in my life who've made me who I am, the people, the challenges I've had, the failures I've had, all weaved into this, like, kind of collection of short stories that ultimately, you know, leads into showing who I am.

Everyone's seen the Super Bowls. We've seen these highly publicized moments. but what they haven't seen is kind of the behind the scenes, the difficulties in marriage and family and finances and business and trying to organize, you know, a social justice movement all while being in the public eye. I go through it all. And it's extremely vulnerable. You know how I am. I'm a poised guy. I got a poker face on all the times.

But this is really me kind of opening that curtain. Well, that was it for me. When I heard you writing a book, I was like, you know, Malcolm won't say two words some days. but he's got a book that's probably 10,000 words long and you've just been saving it up. So I think you're the perfect guy to do one because even with all the hats you wore and all the things you were involved with,

you know, you kept, you had an economy of words about you. You know, you definitely like to leave something to the imagination. And, you know, I don't know if you just have always had that kind of quieter, more strong, silent personality. But, and I think it's also the reason that you might intimidate some guys. Like, did you ever get the sense that there were some of the younger players

that were intimidated by you? Like, you never intimidated me because we're the same age and fuck, I'm just gonna bother you until you start, you start fucking playing back and eventually we became really tight, but it was like, you know, if you walk in that building,

you're like an alpha and, you know, I think part of your mystique is you don't say much and, you know, like, I kind of wonder if you ever were aware of that. Yeah, you know, it's a lot of it is, A lot of people don't understand I'm super introverted. So the majority of the time, I'm like, you'll see me with my hood up, like, just walking

through the hall, you know, like you said. And I'm like deep in thought most of the time. But I remember Sproles when we first, man Sproes first got there, he came up to me one day in training camp. Like, man, yeah, what did you do to these people? I'm like, what do you mean? He's like, man, everybody, like, he's talking about how he came up to him and asked him to just like, hey, see if I enjoyed it here, if I was having fun, if I had. have regretted my decision.

He's like, because he never smiles. And I'm like, man, I'm just, I'm just focused. It has nothing to do with anybody else. But I did notice that, like, ah, like, you know, people walk on eggshells a little bit because they don't know, because I'm silent. I don't get my words. They're like, but I'm most of the time just thinking. Yeah.

No, I know. That's the way I read you. And, you know, some of the younger guys who maybe, you know, or in your meeting room, they're probably a little frightened of you when they walk in. And they're like, man, there's this 10-year vet. you're like one of the old NFL holdovers, you know? Right. You know, like the vets are, that's the thing.

The vets are way different than they were when we came in the league. And so I think leadership is an interesting topic that I'm sure you touch on in the book, again is what winners won't tell you lessons from a legendary defender. You know, like leadership, does it come up in the book? And what's your whole leadership ground floor kind of, I mean, people have all types of different ideas of what leadership is. What is it to you? And how did you go about that?

And how did that evolve as your career went on? Yeah, I even talk about it in the book that like, and one of the things I'm most proud of is like, I feel like every teammate that I have, why that might be like the initial kind of read is like every young player that has played in my room knows I'm, I spill every bit of knowledge that I have about the game. Like by all means, come meet me, watch tape.

Like I'll give you every tip. But it really, you know, we talk about that in the book, why that's important to me. From a leadership standpoint, it's always been like the model of a servant leader. Like, how do I, you know, not only just lead because, you know, most some people get appointed to leadership, you know, whether they're qualified or not. Some people get appointed to leadership because they're the most talented in the room, but maybe not the best leader. And so I've got a chance to follow a lot of good leaders like John Vilma, the Drew Breezes, and really watch them. And so you'll see in the story, this evolution of like a follower, but like a leader as well, of that same thing where I sit back and analyze the situation and how I strategically, like,

decide to use my voice in certain spots. But I think I've always tried to be a servant leader. And I think, you know, I talk about it in the book toward the end. Football has started to die for me. I was losing the fun in it because I was just so focused on, you know, the producing, the what my role was, you know, all of these other things. And then it got down to like, you know, I have the most fun when I'm worried about my teammates. Like, let me just focus on these guys.

I'm going to make them the best players I can be. And then all of a sudden I started enjoying the game a little bit more because it wasn't about anything but your teammates, the locker room, your day-to-day grind to go like perform. And I thought I found that to be the most, I've been a, you know, had to step up and be a leader in so many different ways. I thought that was one that was actually most challenging, but also the most rewarding is when you're leading from like the backseat, you're pushing guys to the forefront. But at the same time, you know, your role is to prepare them and keep them, you know,

at their best. That stuff is like, I think even what I'm doing now, just trying to apply that to my family, trying to apply that to my businesses, where, you know, these things can go on without me, but my role is really to influence the people who are going to go. do the work. Yeah, and that's something we've touched on this podcast before, and I've talked about it at length is being a guy who you might

consider a leader myself when I played, and leadership takes different forms in my prime. It was easy to lead because you're one of the, you're like the head honcho. And then later in my career when I get there, I kind of got to read the room and be like, okay, Malk's a leader, you know, a couple guys are leaders, how do I fit into

this? And it's harder as you get older because you're not who you were. And, you're And for me, especially in my career, I was still a good player, but it was hard for me sometimes to be like, all right, I'm going to fully embrace this leadership role because you're not one of the guys who are top five playmakers on the team. And so you've got to be cognizant of that and that sort of thing. And then when you get to retirement, leadership takes a totally different role because I really

believe this. We overstate, I think, when football players, and make no mistake about it, I think we bring something different to the table when it comes to corporate America running a business, the whole thing. We're team players. We've been in high stress situations, the whole thing. But we have to adjust our leadership style. And, you know,

because that was one of the biggest hang-ups for me when I started this job and trying to run a company and be a leader is like, I was still leading like I was a football player, which is drawing to some people. It is. You know? It is. I think the level of, it's the level of

you know, quality of work that we've had to do. Like, we've all been in an environment where it's not just us, but everybody is like, if I'm not the best at what I'm doing, then what am I doing here? You know, you realize that that's just not how the rest of the world works. There are some people like that. And so I've had to, like, use a lot of those same, like, things. I'm like, all right, not every teammate has been hypermotivated. Like, what did I do when I had a lazy teammate or if I needed to change, you know, like I changed teams and got to, when I first got to Philly and realized like, ah, the room is a little dysfunctional. But like you said, I can't come in here and say, all of y'all are losers. Yeah. That's not going to work. Follow me. Yeah. It's like,

oh, no, I got to silently, you know, just leave by action and then let my work ethic just make you look lazy. Yeah. Yeah. And then you got to figure out on your own. But it's also the communication, bro. Like, I've told this story before, but last year, like I had like come to Jesus talk or two years ago with my crew here. It's like me, four or five guys. And we're trying to like improve the efficiency of the pod and like, you know, we're trying to do better work and that sort of thing. And I had a little pep talk with him and we talked about it on the pod the next week. And I asked one of the producers, I was like, how'd you feel about that conversation? He's like, well, I got something to say about that. You call, you said something that I wanted to bring up. And I said, what did I say?

He said, you called us motherfuckers. And I said, give me the context in which I called you motherfuckers, because I don't remember it. And he said, well, you called us some hardworking motherfuckers. And I said, that's a fucking compliment where I come from. That's a compliment. So it's just, you know, like taking the edge off of your leadership, lowering the standard sometimes, not for yourself, but for the people around you and going in that more like, you know, and also like the perfectionism of being a pro football player, the feeling like you have a gun to your head

and like having to go out and get your job done. Like it's just not the same temperature. And it's okay. You know, and so part of it is you just saying, I got to learn to relax a little bit. And yeah. And I think that's retirement in a nutshell.

I'm like, this is therapy for me. Yeah, dude. You know, I'm like fresh in it. I'm literally having these conversations like at the moment where I'm like, is it me? I'm like,

I'm, I'm wilding. Yeah. I remember Corey Underland telling us like, yo, there's nothing casual. about what we do. Nothing.

Like, nothing was casual about football. Everything's urgent. There's no walking on the field. There's no taking your time. You know, it's like every day you're being evaluated where, you know, out here, it's just a little different. Like you said, everybody's not marching to that beat. But you also realize that that's what makes us cut, you know, from a different cloth. Like, we've been through that process, that environment, and we actually thrive in that

environment. Yeah. You know, and then we get tossed into, you know, other things. And it's like playing with younger players when when you're at the, the peak of your knowledge of the game, you're trying to do like the things that you can imagine doing in the middle of the game and the young players like, no, man, it's outside the playbook. Yeah, dude. What am I?

Yeah. Yeah. No, it's the communication is standard. It's the whole deal. And then retirement, I think also, and I'd love for you to talk about the struggles of retirement because I think we all struggle with it. I mean, you know, like even if in retirement over the last four years, I've looked like I've been swimming, I'm like a duck on the surface, you know? and you know like I'm I'm I'm I'm paddling as hard as I can and it might look like I got it together

but I've had trouble right you know I've definitely had trouble I think for me some of it is the reconciling with your career even if you had a great career and you're happy there's only one way to look there's only one way to look now and it's back and you know like during your career you could always say hey next year I'm going to do this thing next year I'm going to achieve this goal I'm going to improve on this thing and you look up eight, nine years in your career and realize it's not going to go forever. And at some point you can't say that anymore. But until it hits, you don't really feel it. And I also think the ego part of it, which everybody has an ego. It's one of the most misused words. Okay, like everyone has an ego. You have to have an ego to survive. And in the NFL, you have to have

to have a big ego. And I don't mean like you're arrogant, but you have to be your biggest advocate. you know, you have to think you're better than you are. You've got to walk in confident. You got to walk in like not taking any shit from anybody. And then you get to retirement. And that thing kind of changes. And I wonder for you if being away from football, you learn anything about yourself that you maybe talked about in the book

or the struggles is just being a regular guy and dealing with regular guy's shit. No, I think that's, I talk about it a lot in the book. The book starts off with retirement. So, you know, it's not like, hey, I'm going to take you through my life, but it's like, we know how this ends. Like, I make all these, this is my career. I went two Super Bowls, cool. This is really not about that.

And at the end of the book, you see me getting ready now to step into whatever that unknown is. And I talk about it like there's fear because, you know, you want that stage forever. You want to be able to be acknowledged as one of the best in the world at what you do. and then starting over at zero, you know, it's scary in the world where you've been you've been drilled in your brain to believe that you're a dumb jock that, you know, somehow, you know, we are dependent on the people who handle all these services for us. All we know is football. And it's really just like an unconditioning, like that has to kind of go through in a new, it's, you got to challenge that fear. And at least that's where I am now because I feel those doubts like daily. but one of the things that's helped me is like how do I structure my life in this in this football that I know like so my week like when I work out how I attack you know different tasks

I'll just make that the game so I know okay if if this parent teacher conference meeting is the game this week then what do I need to do to prepare for that all right I need to know what my kids do in the school I need to know and I just take that approach to everything and it at least like keeps me focused because I think the structure to me is the biggest thing that you lose is the ability to work toward you know what you're doing so when I first hit the ground I'm like okay now what do I do and you see athletes do all the time we're trying to do everything too much dude I try to do too much because you're afraid of that idle time yeah your you your work your work capacity is huge because you you've done it you're a grinder

and then you're also you you think you have the confidence that you can tackle everything and you know before you know it you're doing too much and for me it was like a mental health thing it was like fuck i gotta take a break or i'm gonna lose my mind after football and it's not because of the reason i thought i thought i thought i was gonna lose my mind because i'd be sitting still but i feel right and also you talk about more busy now yeah and you and you talk you talk about like liking it to football i had a sudden change last week whalen pulled the fucking fire alarm at school mouth so you know you get all types of unexpected things that you just never have a whole chapter It's called set down for that reason right there.

That's perfect. Were there things in this book that you almost didn't write about and were really hard for you to share? Yeah. So chapter 11, I named it 1.11. And it's this idea of like your role and your like identity, you know, so what's your role, you know, on a team? We know as football players, like our roles aren't created equal, but all of them are equally as important. And so it was like, what does that mean now as a man, you know, for your family, for your community, you know, your team, your job? And I talk about the Super Bowl year.

A lot of people see that as a year that was like the best year ever. But for me, it was one of the most challenging years ever. It's like, yes, there was a Super Bowl team, but it was me leading that. It was me leading the negotiations along with Ancon Bolin and with the NFL for the social justice move. Then there was also my talk about my marriage failing at that time and having to like put on a strong face so nobody knew about these things like the the morning I kind of had to do with the idea of what my family looked like and then having to like you said deal with sudden change and and reinvent that dealing with family struggles like financially you know wanting to be there for them but also recognizing like I can't if I'm if I'm going to make this work, I have to protect, you know, the assets, the money. And so it's all of these strains that

at that year was all pulling at the same time. And that's probably the shortest chapter in the book. It was the hardest to write because in the entire book, I tried to bring you like into the moment, into, you know, my helmet, those moments like you said where, you know, I'm quiet and reserved for words. It's like, oh, there's plenty of dialogue in those moments. And so bringing people into that space was difficult because I had to relive it a few different times. I even talk about my struggles with mental health and contemplate suicide around that same year. And so it's to your point. Even like afterwards, you realize that like we are the strong friends that like when people see us, we work hard and we'll go at it. So it'll look like we're doing well, even if we're, you know,

barely treading water. And so that was kind of one of the other things that I wanted to talk about is, is there is this idea that we have of winners and how easy they make this stuff look, but it is not at all easy to carry all that. Well, it's just like, you know, I'm a gambler, right? Hard right turning into gambling for a quarter second. It's really, as you know, if you bet college football, especially, it's 80 guys in a locker room. They're kids.

They have a bunch of shit going on. You don't know where anybody's head's going to be at a given week. And again, it's that whole, like on the surface, I see two football teams, but I don't know if the quarterback's dealing with something from his personal life. I don't know if, you know, somebody has a sick parent or, you know, you like Super Bowl year,

and there's a lot to unpack there, but like you're dealing with a marriage that's in peril. You're dealing with your social justice stuff, which I thought, you know, you held your head high and worked as hard as you possibly could, but you took a lot of arrows, man. And, you know, there's, that there's there's there's just your mental health the whole thing like what was the lowest point

for you i didn't know i'm one of your boys i had no idea that you were that low so next time tell me first off motherfucker but secondly secondly like how'd you get there and and how low was it because when you put that in a book i got to ask yeah i think you know it's it's one of those things where you just over time you pile things up right it's like being on a on a bench you know you're like all right, you know, you put a couple plates on, you've got that easy, you know, put a couple more plates on. And a lot of the times we have friendships where, you know, our friends, when you're the strong guy, they just sit back and watch you do the stuff. Right. They're not spotting you. They're just in awe of all of the things you're able to carry. And you just keep putting plates on

because like any man, we want to challenge ourselves. We want to stretch, you know, the limits. But at some point in time, you're going to reach that bandwidth. And I think that was, that was the year for me that I did. And, you know, I'm trying to do everything in my power to hold that in because I don't want to be a distraction. I don't want to, it's like if you start talking about it, it becomes real. And so I tried to just compartmentalize it until it just, I couldn't anymore. And I talk about one of the things that was probably the most humbling parts, but it was also, you know, I saw it as weak, but really it was probably the strongest thing to do was actually acts for help.

And then once I did that, that started like therapy. So I've been in therapy for six years now, six, seven years now. Yeah, me too, about the same year. Yeah, which is been good. Like, you know, it just you get those outlets and those tools. So I'll talk about, you know, that it doesn't mean that life gets easier. It just means that like as you build up all of these things with life, you go on, you add your business, you add your own dreams and personal goals.

that's a lot to maintain. You've got to build up some tools and some things to get you to navigate these great things. And so it's like whether that's meditation, it's breathing, it's all kind of things. Like a bunch of that self-care, you know, conversation,

knowing that you got to take, we talk about it all in football, right? The best thing you can be is available. I realize, like, if you don't take, if I didn't take care of my mental, I didn't do the things that I needed to do to take care of myself, then eventually I wouldn't be.

be worth anything for my family. It wouldn't be worth anything for the community, the team, all of the things I'm trying to hold up. Yeah, man. It's so interesting because I'm sitting here and I'm like, talk to me, man, but the times that I've been the lowest and some of them have been recent, you know, I don't, I don't seek people out. Like I go to therapy, but, you know, my standing in my social circle is I'm the, I'm the

person people are depending on. and like whether it's being the boss here or you know like I'm having a real bad day and I'm not talking about a bad day like you're just in a bad mood I'm talking about you're bad it's bad and I'm afraid to go to my wife because she's dealing with three kids you don't want to be the fourth kid you know and like how am I going to complain about my life when your setup's even harder and and you know at work again you're the you're the leader and your friends you don't want to you don't want to come across week and sometimes you also don't assume that they'll understand and so like no matter who's on the menu to talk to you find a reason not to and you know just two weeks ago i've i've been

working my tail off man like and the schedule's crazy and all that stuff and you know it's a football season it is what it is but i went out i went to a concert you know me i like music and went out and went with my buddies from high school and had a great well it was supposed to have a great time and i found myself sitting at that concert like I just want to escape like I just like I felt like like the things I've always loved to do I'm having a hard time doing them and I was I was ready to explode and I talked to one of my good friends later that night and all it took was me saying like I'm having a bad night man you know and the conversation that that followed that I think got me through the last two weeks and you know it's just just a simple like I'm not having a good time

you know and and and your friends will usually follow that lead but it's terrifying to say that um and not because i'm not i'm not you know outward with my emotions you know me i wear my emotions on my sleeve but you know i guess there is something about showing that weakness you know or or or putting that burden on other people is more the problem i think for me so i'm with you man it's one of those things that like for me that was scary right but it's like it's a muscle that we don't use. It's a part of our growth. I think we rob ourselves sometimes of our ability to love any differently because we aren't vulnerable. And so like, you know, we talk about, all right, what's the different, like, ways for leadership? It's like, in order to find those,

you've even got to be open enough to be weak to put yourself in somebody else's shoes and all of that stuff. So I think it's, once I started doing it, it definitely made it a lot easier. You know, you get a friend or two that you know you can call on in a buying. But I do think there's also times like I'm still here. Yeah, exactly. There are things I've learned having to weather that stuff myself. There are tools that I got through where I can stop catastrophizing. Like, okay, let me not make this a bigger deal than it is and use these tools to get through it

because you're not always going to have somebody. But it does. It's like, again, when you're really trying to stretch yourself, you're taking on something that's bigger than what you can do, you're going to need, you know, know, a support group, somebody there to spot you, even if you don't ever drop the bar, drop the weight, you might make it to the finish line without help. It's still good to have that support system there. So that's part of what I hope people get, man. You know, like you said to me, bro, please reach out because we all are struggling a little bit. And we're the only

people who really understand this lifestyle, what it's like to play football, have your identity and something since you were probably six, seven years old. And then, you're you know, ripped the band-aid off. And now, like you said, the only thing you can do is look back. So one of the things I found myself doing is like, well, okay, I tried to reject looking back. Yeah. I wanted to look forward now. I almost tried to like, I wanted to erase the mental conditioning of football when I first

retired. So I stopped really watching it. I'm traveling. I'm in the art. Did a nice little ayahuasca retreat. Oh, oh, yes. This is good because we were like, you texted me yesterday and you were like, Are we going to talk about Iowa-Waska tomorrow?

And I was like, boy, it wasn't on the menu, but, but all you got, say, yeah, so you did this. Yeah. So it happened. I was trying to do it last December. And it just so happened that the trip gets delayed till May. And so it was right after I turned in the final pages of this book. So it really was therapeutic for me.

Like I got to unpack that whole, you know, football experience, write it, put it to the side. And then I was really trying to, I thought. I was hoping that the medicine was going to, like, untrain me, you know, all the mental conditioning I've had through football and let me really, like, see what is my purpose that is bigger than just, you know, ball. And it was an experience. I don't, I haven't done, I hadn't had much experience with psychedelics before then. So you go, it was in Peru, right?

You go right on the Amazon jungle, right in the Amazon jungle, right on the outskirts. So you're off the grid. There's no cell. service, no internet. You're there for five days. Three of the days, you go through the ayahuasca ceremony. The first two days, I don't feel anything to give you the medicine. Everybody else is having, I can see the dude next to me. He's like, sleep in a fetal position, smiling and laughing. He's having like the trip of his life. And I'm sitting there. My back hurts. I've been sitting for four hours, you know, my legs crossed waiting for something to happen. And nothing

happened the first two days, except it kept telling me that I needed to, like, forgive a bunch of people. So I was kind of like working through these blocks of forgiveness. And then I'm like, I wanted to show me my fears. I wanted to, like, I wanted to, like, I want to transform from this. And the last night, they gave me a triple dose, like, to the point where the shaman, even when they were about to give it to me, she's like, are you, are you sure? And they're like, yeah. So I'm like, all right, we're going to go there. And for four hours, the first night I had a vision, for four hours. I had a conversation with a snake in a vision. You saw her?

I saw a mother ayahuasca, you know. And I believe you. That's the thing. Like it's like ghost stories. You know, I'll read people on YouTube or watch people talking about their, their experiences, but I'm like,

I don't know this motherfucker. He could just be making something up. But you saw the snake, the mother ayahuasca. That's supposed to represent the spirit of the medicine. And we talked for four hours about everything, bro. And it was like mind-blowing. But really,

changed my mind on, like, you know, what I'm supposed to be doing, this idea of like, we, you know, I want to love the world. I found myself, like, really contemplating love a lot. And it talked about just shifting my idea, love from a feeling to an action. And so, you know, even start with myself, most of us, like, for me, it's like, all right, how do I know what I love myself? Well, if I look in the mirror, if I've dressed good, I feel good. You know, I'm like, all right, I feel good.

I love myself. And so when I go out into the world, I'll love myself. do stuff that makes me feel good. And I'm like, I love that person or I love my partner because I have these feelings. Doesn't mean I'm loyal. Doesn't mean I'm doing anything with action. I'm just, I feel the love. Yeah, that's the bare moment. Yeah. And so it was like, all right, now turn that into an action. Like, what do you do to love yourself? And it's like, okay, well, to love myself, I got to have some, like, discipline. There's things I can't do if I love myself, right? There's things that if I want to be healthy, then I need to work out, not just because I want to.

to look good, but because I love myself, right? Then it's like, okay, now all of a sudden you start to look at your partner the other way. It's not just a feeling. It's like, what am I doing in my daily actions to show that I love you? That's going to teach me lessons of how to love my kid. It's going to teach me lessons of how to love my community. And so it's like this, starting with yourself and then letting that radiate out was really

a lot of what I got. And then at the very end, I have a conversation. I see my ancestors. So I see, I talk about them in the book a lot, how I would have, conversations with my two grandfathers and my grandmother right during the national anthem right before kickoff. That became like my routine. And so during this ayahuasca trip the last night, I'm sitting and I turn into a childlike version of myself and my grandparents are singing to me and they're telling me, they're reminding me of like who I am as a leader. They're showing me like,

you know, these things that have happened in my life aren't just by happenstance, how they've been guiding the way and setting these things. things up. I just have to remember, like, that I don't bow to anybody, that I am, you know, somebody who is meant to lead. And then they're like, you know, just basically letting me know that they're there at all times. And that jump was, you know, it was, it was a lot, you know, but it was, it really did help me kind of showcase. Like, it's not for me to take my experiences with the league and throw all of it away. It's actually like, no, this process that I'm going through that we've been through, it was all on purpose.

and that is a stepping stone down to something else. Yeah, the road's not over. The road continues, man. So what did the snake look like? I got a few follow-up questions here. It looked like a normal snake. But just like six feet tall. Oh, yeah, I was sitting.

So the whole time it kept telling me to meditate, too. That was that thing. Close your eyes. Don't worry about me. I'll just be here. Oh, yeah, I was like, yo, how do I trust you, man? What's up? But, no, it was really like one of those things that was, you know, it's hard to explain because you're, I wasn't even out of control.

I can, like, one time I, it just got too much and I just asked me like, can I take a break? And it's like, sure. And then the vision pauses. And I'm just sitting in the room, like, aware of everything that's going on. And then, all right, when I'm ready, all right, let's go. And it just takes you back off. I'm like, it's, it was something I never. I couldn't even expect.

You know, you know, I like the shrooms. and so I have messed with psychedelics, you know, plenty, but I just, I've never done this. And, you know, the understanding I had was like, it's going to change you. And then some people, though, they get changed for the worse. And then it's hard to get out of that. I don't know if that was a risk that you were worried about. Well, there is like this phase called like integration. It's kind of like once you understand these things, you unplugged.

So even if you just just take. take five days and you are off the grid where you don't have phone access, internet access, all of that. There's so much information that you have not taken in. Right. Because you're sitting with yourself, right? You're self-conscious. Yeah, you're evaluating now your only voice.

You don't hear all of this stuff. But then now you go back into society and then there's the news and social media. It's like all of these things. Some people have a hard time integrating back into all of that. And I think that was a big part of even before the medicine. And it's like for 30 days, you're not drinking, you're not smoking, you're abstaining from the information you're taking in, you're eating clean. So it's like when you show up, you're already kind of like a very pure version. Yeah.

And so you get to see this stuff, you know, without the influence of the outside world. And then people do struggle with now going back into it. But you're like one of the few who now have this perspective on the world and everything else is still going. So it's, it is a little bit of a, of a change. But I went with my, my best friend. We've been, we've been, he's been my boy since high school. Me and him went. And we had similar kind of experiences.

So after each night, like, we would go play chess and talk about, like, our visions, which was that, that helped for sure. Last question before I get into football. You know, I've always admired your endurance for the stuff you've done off the field, you know, and getting into that. space. You know, I was always in the space, but not exactly in the space. And you providing a vehicle with Players Coalition and doing all that stuff, it was like I was right place, right time to be with you and be able to chip in my two cents and that sort of thing. But I'm a guest in the space. You know,

like you can be an advocate, you can be an ally, whatever it is. But I know that like, I'm staying in the space, but this is like I'm a, I'm a supporting piece of the, the puzzle and like you being a black man dealing with everything you deal with being a leader being ambitious in the space like it's a different burden for you and i know that journey's continued after football i'm kind of wondering because it was a crazy fucking three four years you know like yeah it was that space on steroids and you were in the forefront and there was there was messy stuff and one of the things that was toughest for me was like getting in the space and seeing that like not everybody agrees like you know and everybody wants the same thing in the space but

everybody wants to get there a different way and people want to wear different hats and I just thought you took a lot of shit and you were doing all the right things I wonder if your endurance ever wore out yeah like you know I outlined all of those things right because you were close to it you saw the behind the scenes of how hard it was to like organize players around that time. And that was, that was surprising for me. I assumed, you know, when you raise your fist on the national anthem or you align yourself with people who are taking a need during the national anthem, we know that there's going to be pushed back and back lack to that, right? We weren't surprised. What I was surprised is that was the internal kind of

fighting and how hard it was to really get everyone on the same page. And you realize that even know we're on the same team. We all want, we have different motivations. We all want different things. And what's ironic is we, you and I both know what it's like to be on the team like that where not everybody's here for the same reasons and what that looks like. I think one of the things that helped me during that time was like Anquam Bowden. I talk about him. I hit him up the other day just like, bro, now that I'm reflecting on these moments, like I was catching a lot of those arrows, but he was a guy who was never, you know, never cared about who got credit, who said what, what they were calling him. He's like, man, I'm here to get this done. You know, he had his cousin

that was a real life story for him, somebody who died at the hands of an off-duty police officer unjustly, and he left the game of football to go do this work full time. And so standing next to, like, his poise, even though a lot of people didn't see it because he was no longer, you know, at the podium, he wasn't doing the media because he wasn't an elite. league anymore, you know, his ability to stay focused on the things that mattered in the goal that we were trying to get and not about what people were saying was helpful for me because there was times where I'm getting caught up in it too. I'm like, yo, are they calling me a sellout? Like, I got to respond. I got to say something back. I can't allow this to be, you know,

what they say about me to be, you know, true. It had to be the perception. And it's like, bro, no, just stand on the work. Like, in due time, all of that chatter will stop and your work will speak for itself. And that, you know, that was helpful because here we are, you know, and the amount of work that has been done over those seven years, I think, is bigger than anything I could have even imagined. It's almost like we look back at those moments now, and it's almost foolish that we were even worried about what people would say in and the, you know, the media and all those things when we were on the cusp of creating an organization that would empower, you know, 12 different sports leagues of professional athletes to get involved,

not only just in their communities, but politically in their communities. That's something that's never been done before. And I was, you know, that was at that moment, those were the things that we were shouldering. And it's probably hard for you. I know at times it's been hard for me, like just in my involvement with you. I mean, the backstory for people who don't know is everything that was going on in Charlottesville was, was, was affecting me. But, in a way that, you know, like it's easy for me to say I'm affected, but, you know, like, after this past, I'm going to go back to being a white guy in America and it's going to, you know,

but like I remember being in training camp, being fucking mad, just sitting there watching the news at night, that sort of thing, everything going on in my hometown, came into work. I don't think we were that tight yet. And, you know, I just saw you over at the breakfast table and I'm like, yo, would you mind? Like, I don't want to fuck your deal up.

Right. I was like, Forrest Gov, can I come to the Black Panther Party? I was like, hey, Malk, can I put my hand on your shoulder? Because I didn't want to upstage you or make it about me, but you do want people like me in the fight. You know, but I had to enter it the right way. And I just remember that conversation thinking, you know, like I just want to support Malk because I always admired the way you went about your work. didn't, even if I didn't know you that well. And, you know, fast forward six, seven years down the

line, we're tight. We've, we've, I've been able to tag along for some great work that you've done. And, and, you know, I've gotten a front row seat at you, like having to take these arrows and be called a radical, you know, by people that don't like you, but by the people, you know, that are supposed to be with you, you know, people are throwing the word sellout and that sort of thing around. So it's got to be hard because I know after football, I've met a lot of people who think they know who I am because I put my hand on your shoulder, you know, and some of them have this whole idea of who I am, how unreasonable I am. I hate America. I hate, you know, all this stuff. And really what I'm doing is supporting a very valid mission for equality in America. You know,

I've wanted, I want you and people that look like you and come from different communities than me and that sort of thing to enjoy America as much as I have. you know and so i i've always struggled with the the after football of people looking at me and having these preconceived notions i know it's probably even harder for you because you're the guy with your fist up no but i think the one thing about your narrative that that i think you know was interesting to me or i always appreciated and i think you can talk more about it and it would probably make sense to people is that like you didn't you just putting your arm around me wasn't the first that wasn't the entry point right you know asked questions at first like

like, hey, can I just, I want to understand what's going on. Yeah. And without taking like, not feeling like you personally were responsible for or there was an attack, you know, on you. I'm not taking a person. You generally listen. Right. You generally listen to, all right, what is happening in the communities?

And when you listen, you even, like, you heard stories and you're like, that doesn't make sense. Yeah. And that, and it was like, that was really why you kept showing up. Or at least that's what it seemed like is because you actually took the time to, to like, all right, listen to what these issues are. How does this actually function? And even for me, I had to realize like, yeah, if I want an ally, then I have to allow

some space for people to learn what is going on and figure out how they play a role in it, right, without taking it over, without becoming now guilty or anything like that. You did exactly what I think we all would want. It's just somebody to, one, listen and then two, put their arm around us. You don't have to go, you don't have to be front line. I'm with you. Take it over. Right.

I'm with you. I'm thinking about you. I see what you're doing. Right. That was important. And if you throw me the alley oops, I'll make a play for you. But it was always you were going to be the point guard. And Q was going to be the point guard.

And for a while, Cap, Eric, those guys, you know, when we were working together, I can remember these calls were going on way before there was any anything that people knew about. I mean, you and I talked, I think, for the first time on a conference call when I was in New England. And, you know, so the roots of guys trying to get to. together and then the exhaustion that followed of like, hey, you know, everybody's trying to get on the same page, do the same work, but it's not working out, you know, as a group. I felt for you.

So I know it's not easy and, you know, I just wanted to because this is a football show, but Malch's done a lot more than football and I've been there to see some of it. So game day is the perfect pizza day. So make Little Caesars the official pizza sponsor of the NFL part of your game day. Order online during our pizza pizza pregame one hour before and three hours after NFL kickoffs, plus all day Sunday. To have your NFL game day covered, choose your favorite Little Caesar's pizza or pick the toppings you crave. It's a pizza pizza pizza win.

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I was like, can a secondary grow up over the course of a season? Because, you know, you look in that secondary. There's a lot of guys down. You know, they played Bradbury inside a bunch. That's a whole different deal. You played nickel. You know it's like with the emphasis on having to have three corners in the NFL, the whole thing, that's changed over time.

I don't know if you noticed when that's changed, like over the course of your career, when nickel became a really important position or what went into it. but on top of that, can a secondary grow up? Can you fill that void with somebody outside? And is it a bad thing to put your best corner inside? Like Bradbury's in their bunch right now. It's what they got to do.

But what do you think about that's a little situation? Man, I'm personally, and maybe it's selfish because it was like, it was my favorite position to play. Yeah. And where I thought I was the best, but I felt like the nickel is actually like one of the more valuable pieces that you can have because he basically played. three different positions. He's playing

a linebacker. So he has to understand run fits. He's playing corner except he doesn't have the sideline his help. You know, so you've got to understand coverage and where your help is and how to take away leverage. That guy's also making calls. He's got to blitz. So there's

this player's got to be one a cerebral player. So usually you'll lean to the veteran guy who can understand that, have that bandwidth. But it's also like you need talent to play in there. It's hard to cover those shiftier route trees

that have got more space, more closer to the quarterback. So you've really got to understand coverages. I like veterans playing the position or a rookie who's who that's his only role and he can fit there. You know, but it helps when you have two corners. You got Bradbury and Slay on the outside.

That helps your secondary so much. So now you've got Blankenship in the post who's developing well. And so you're just looking at your safety and your nickel, whoever they are, you don't have to be the most talented, but they've got to understand coverage and help because they don't have to stop everything. They're the two, the strong safety and the nickel are going to be closest to linebackers, closest to the run fits.

They just got to understand, you know, how to win that. You can set them up for success with coverages. But that's going to leave Slay and Bradbury to be one-on-one. They're going to have to, you know, win those matchups in order to really provide that help on the outside. But I mean, when you look at our Super Bowl team, it was built off the D-line and then some really, like we had a bunch of injuries. So it was me, Nigel plan, you know, manipulating the defense and coverage. And then Darby and Jalen Mills holding up on the outside. It wasn't, you know, it weren't the locked down corners out there. They could play. But our scheme

lent to it, right? They knew their role and that's all you had to do. And I think that's really for me has always been the easiest way to get away with like a lower level of talent is make the defense simple make it easy easy to execute and then they can do that versus anybody um it's a dynamite segue it's a dynamite segue into jim schwartz and a second of his defense i would you explain that but but at what point your career did nickle become a thing like you know a bigger thing do you remember like some some moment where you're like all of a sudden yeah it was it was when it was when um And I talk about this. I'll go back to this book,

but I talk about it in my book, the transition from being a corner to safety and then really finding out that nickel was my best spot. But I had to convince all of these coordinators to put me there. And really when I got to Philly was the first times where they were like allowing me to play that nickel position. I started having the best years of my career because I'm closer to the football and I can do all of these things.

Right. I can manipulate the run. I can cover receivers. I can cover tight ends, cover backs, play deep in the coverage. You've got so much more versatility when you've got a guy that can do all of those things, as opposed to if they put 12 personnel on the field, now you've got to go base or they put 11. Now you've got to change the nickel. When I was out there, you can play now nickel against anything.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. If you got a tight end who can, if you got a nickel who can hold up, cover big tight end, hold up in the run game. like yeah you can be a lot more adaptive with your personnel you know so and it's like the rams we just talked about this the rams played the eagles and you know that star position being so valuable jalen ramsie one of the things you took for granted was that you had a swiss army knife who could fit in the run front you know they run cover three they run cover four he can fill that backside a all that stuff and you know they got Kobe deran in there who's younger he's smaller you know It's a hard fucking job.

A lot of people look at the corners outside. They look at the D-line. But the nickel, if you don't have it, or if you had somebody like Jalen Ramsey, who's being asked to do a lot, like, that's a real luxury. So, or yourself in Philly. And so I guess my question to you would be,

for people getting familiar with Jim Schwartz, if they missed the Super Bowl run, what does he do? You know, like I always thought of him as a real simple cat. You know, it was about the players and it was about some simple, concepts and mixing in some some blitzes and pressures at the right times but he was going to let the rushers eat uh what did you like if somebody's like hey malc explain jim schwartz how do you do that

yeah i would say jim schwartz is he's an adaptive coach right so this his first year he's going to have his scheme i think when he first got to to philly he was more of a split safety kind of guy uh ran combo coverages and you know he's got the wide nine where he's going to lead with the D-line. The D-line will get the right-away for everything. He's going to try to get pressure with four, hold up in coverage with combo coverages and split safety, you know, defense. And that was kind of it.

But he changed once we weren't built for that. And he started to look at Seattle a lot. And so did I. I really love, like, the Legion of Boom playing single high where everything now can look like split safety, but you really don't know if we're in single high if the safety's in a certain week, if he's insert in strong, if he's inserted in the middle,

is it really quarters, but it's all kind of the same principles. And it's very simple. What that allowed guys to do was, you know, this corner, this left corner has the same job every time. The right corner has the same job every time. Nickel, same job every time. And then the only three players that really have adjustments

were like the free safety, strong safety, and linebacker. And that allowed me to say, you know, so that's my role. Okay. I look at the formation. Where's the offense trying to attack us? Right? So are they, if there's three receivers to one side,

I know they're trying to get a receiver on the mic, I can switch with the mic. And it's very simple switch. Or they put a fact that they've got that they want to create a one-on-one on the backside. Well, okay, me and the mic will switch. And this now is just like, there's nothing you can do to put us in a bad position besides throw to the corner, who already knows which routes you're going to try to hit them with

and vice versa. That made us play. much faster, even if we didn't have, like, you know, a guy who could lock you down all day. We at least knew what we were doing. We knew the weaknesses of what we were doing and how you had to attack us. And so we just meet you there. And I think that was to me, like, one of the best things you can do as a coach is create a defense that is tailored to the players in it. And it make it simple so they don't even have to think of the scheme.

They're only thinking about the offense and what's coming. You talk about Jim, we talk about that Eagles run. Who's a guy that you don't think got enough credit for the effect that they had on that defense or that team? Yeah, Patrick Robinson. That's the first off the top of my head. Yeah, like, you know, he, because he was on the, you know, he was on the street as a free agent. And I remember him hitting me up like, hey, what, you know, I'm just looking to get on a team

and play, get a good year football under my belt. And I had been with him in New Orleans. And so I'm like, he knew kind of the room that I had. He's like, he's a guy that plays really well when he's around a group of people that are focused. Yeah. Man, but he, I think he was rated like in the top two corners that like pass a rating that whole year. He was great. Yeah, played phenomenal.

And, you know, we talk about guys you don't have to worry about. He's blitzing. He's that nickel position, right? Blitzings covering guys got us through a bunch of injuries and then had that big pick six in the NFC championship. I don't have, I don't think we're as good as we are if we didn't have Patrick that year. No, he was awesome, man. And, you know, like, you talk about Patrick Robinson

and bringing him, LG, I can remember LG. It's so funny, everything that came together that year. But, like, I can remember calling Tori, calling LG. You know, Tori was already on his way down, but I was like, let's do this. And then LG, I'm like, bro, this is fucking awesome. I've been talking to these guys. So just like the free agency,

hits that we had with veterans and the way that the veterans were actually recruiting other veterans to come play. Yeah, because we saw it. We're like, yo, hey, we got a lot of young talent here. We just need a couple like vets that keep them all focused and we'll be good.

Yeah. What was your favorite regular season win in that run? Because, you know, everybody talks about the Super Bowl, but there were some moments where they're kind of like, and you've been on a Super Bowl team, I've been on a Super Bowl team, but you know, me, it was New England. It's hard to draw any comparison to anywhere else. Like, was there a moment where you're like, yeah, we're pretty good?

I think there was, there were a few games where we knew it. I think by the time we got to the Bears team, the game, and we were doing an electric slide on the sideline. It's like we knew we were good, right? But we had to reset that when we lost Carson. And I'm like, those, that stretch was probably my favorite because it was like, all right, now we get to really see what y'all are made of. You lose your, you know, potential MVP quarterback. And then now you're an underdog in each of these games.

So I think my favorite regular season game that year was the game against the Raiders. Yeah, that mine too. Because we had to clinch the first round at home. We had to clinch the number one seed that day. And they were, they came to play. It was cold. They came to play. It was physical.

They had Marchion. And the week before, it's hard to remember this, but like, we played New York. And I felt like we were so as a defense. And we said this. You and I were like, yo, we got to worry about us. You know, like everybody's worried about the quarterback. And the Giants hung like 20-something on us. And we escaped with a win.

Yeah. And the next week, it was like we dialed it in and worried about us. And that's where we realized our potential as a team. It's like, we don't always have to be. scoring 30 points. Let's win this thing on defense. I hate buying tickets. I've been playing my whole life, never had to worry about buying tickets. The ticket part is stressful. The game's stressful. Ticket part's really stressful. Buying tickets to your favorite events shouldn't be stressful. Game time is the fast and easy way to buy tickets for all the sports, music, comedy, and theater

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And speaking of BFFs, if you pay attention to the podcast, you know that all of our BFFs are on the Greenlight softball squad. We're into softball so much that Dr. Fax challenged me to a home run derby. Matt and Reed put a little sidebed on it, and after Fax came out on top, it was easy enough for Matt to pay up and Cash App read his winnings. I wish I could have defeated Dr. Fax and helped Matt take Reed's money, but Reed's now, slightly richer thanks to Dr. Fax and cash app with security discounts boosts a free-to-order debit card no overdraft fees cash app is like a BFF for your money so download it in the app store

or google play today and start enjoying your BFF app so if i was to ask you best uniform you ever wore I'm talking about the looks here because you never got to wear the Kelly greens but like mid yeah i know i never got to do the Kelly Midnight green, scarlet and gray. Is that how y'all say it down there? And then, uh, yeah, the scarlet and gray or then the, uh, the New Orleans uniform. What's the best uniform you won in the, worn in your career? My favorite uniform of all time is when we played, I was with the Saints and we went to Philly.

We had the white on whites, white sleeve, white socks, white cleats, gold helmet, and then a tenant visor. I'm like, yeah, okay. This, it was, it was clean. That's by, I didn't get. the chance to wear the Kelly Green, that would have probably been my best. That would have been number one. I really, I'm jealous that the Eagles get to pull them out this year. I got to get me one.

You got to see the Broncos. You got to see the Broncos get-ups from yesterday. I don't know if you saw any of that game, but it didn't see the Broncos. All orange with white helmets, they look fucking incredible. So, yeah, I think the Kelly Greens would have been number one. Okay, bouncing around a little bit, Chief Spags, Defense, you've played for Spags before. I played for Spags before. way different than Jim Schwartz

in that like Spaggs is going to make it a little more complicated and it shows when he plays these young quarterbacks and he heats him up I kind of wonder for you what makes a Spag's defense go because it's been variable like he's had the historically bad defense

you know that's happened you know with us we weren't great but we didn't have great personnel in St. Louis and then you know he's also been a championship you know defensive coach in Kansas City as well and in New York. So what makes his defense go?

Yeah, it starts with the D-line. And I talk about it, you know, in my book a lot. And he probably got the short end of the stick in my book as a coach because I was part of the historically, you know, bad. That year, dude. In the history.

We were all like in St. Louis. We were like, see? See? It's not me. It's not us. Yeah. But now, it was tough because, you know, we were a blitzing team.

We were built for man pressure coming from Greg Williams. and we went to Spagnola, and he's a zone pressure team that's all about the front four. So if you can't get, his defense gets pressure with the front four, and then it's all zone pressures kind of behind it. So if he's unable to get to the quarterback, suddenly there are holes, you know, in the secondary. There's, you know, guys that are the flats that are open, but it's hard to find them if your

quarterback's under duress. And so it's really big for him to have some pure past rushers that can get to the quarterback, you know, in a few steps without having to be too elaborate. But I think he has adjusted, too, over the years to just, you know, what his team does a little bit more. I mean, I played for Spags back in 2012. He's grown a lot, you know, as a coordinator. And I think it's worked at different spots.

Like you said, he's been a Super Bowl champion defense coordinator out twice. So I think for me, if I'm looking at Spags' defense, I'm first have to handle the the front. And then I'm looking at, you know, the zone pressures he likes the most. And I'm going to look to exploit those. But you've got to be able to take care of that rush if you want to. Yeah. And this year without Chris Jones, like the first game, you know, I was really worried about this defense without Chris Jones. Like that's why he makes such a big difference is, you know, you need rushers. And I got no problem with Carl Loftus and some of the other guys they've had in Dana and they played well. But like, that's the straw that serves a drink and a spag's

defense and I wonder if you could remember two or three spaggs calls do you remember any the names of the calls and I can tell you if I actually remember what the fuck of de lineman did i remember there was one called spartan there was spartan is i got across the guards face so i remember that sparrow sparrow that was that was edges that was the edge of yes i remember uh What was the other Spags called? It's been 12, 13 years. We've only learned three defenses since, but I can tell you what Sparrow and Spartan are.

Right. Sparrow, I don't even know why I like the Sparons. Yeah, it's funny. You barely remember some of this shit. But I'm not going to hold you to that. I'm pretty sure if Spags came on the show, we'd be able to at least ace the test. But another guy you play for, Sean Payton,

obviously tough time to talk about Sean Payton. fan of Sean Payton he's been on the show and it's so funny malc uh when he came on like two off seasons ago he we thought we'd have him for like 45 minutes and he was like no i'm just driving through louisiana he stayed on the phone for two hours he just wouldn't stop talking and like that's the type of guy you can tell he is he just loves talk about football he'll go forever and when the whole hackett thing went down i almost felt like he just forgot that he was coaching again and he was still being an analyst. But, you know, like, what do you see when you, when you watch Denver struggling? I know you haven't watched all the games, but do you think Sean can pull them out

of this? Like, what, what makes him great? Because we've only seen him really in New Orleans, and now he's got to take that mantra somewhere else. Yeah, I think what we've seen him do, right, is like in New Orleans, he started in 2006. And he built that program, you know, from the ground up and had success pretty early. Got Drew Breeze and he created a culture that like no matter who came and went, that culture was there. And it was, you know,

there's only a few franchises in the, in the league that have a culture like that, that is as longstanding as his was. And now he finds itself, you know, at a new juncture, but it's 2023, right? It's a different time.

You know, the Bill Parcell's methods don't always work. And, and so I think he, there's a balance that has. to happen of him embracing this team that he has in this year. But he's got to also instill his new culture, but also that team has got to embrace that. You're not going back to Kansas. Like, this is a new, a new sheriff in town. And Sean likes things his way. And when you're not

winning, he's not going to back off of his stance. It's kind of a get down and laydown type of situation. So I think it's really, that's really what I want to see. Are they having fun? because that's what you know Sean Payton's teams to be. They're competitive. They play hard. They usually have fun and enjoy the game. And right now you don't really see that. Yeah.

Who's got bigger balls, him or Doug? You've been a part of the on-site kick to open the second half and Doug with the Philly Special. I know if you boiled it down to those two decisions would probably be Sean. But in general, having that aggressive coach. If you went to those two, I think Doug's a little bit more aggressive, to be honest. You know, like he goes forward on four. down routinely.

Like, that's just his deal. He don't care. But I think that's the competitor and him. We took on that personality. And the same in New Orleans. We, you know, he came in a locker room that in that Super Bowl. Like, hey, we're running the ambush. And like, oh, we're already.

Like, we've been preparing for that. So it's not like he's even shocking us. You take on the personality your head coach. And I think that's, when you look at Denver right now, you don't see that. You see Sean Payton and you see the Denver Broncos. and we're waiting to see like that marriage of kind of ideology. Which culture is going to win out, the culture of losing or the culture of Sean Dayton.

And by the way, I didn't talk about this earlier. You mentioned Super Bowls. Tom Brady wrote you forward for your book. And that to me is out of left field a little bit because you were a thorn in his side, man. Like, you know, I'll always remember just because, you know, Sammy B is my guy. And when he was playing Philly, I keep one eye on some of those games. And I was like, yeah, I wonder if they're going to go beat the pay. Patriots this afternoon.

Y'all went and beat the Patriots. You had to pick six. I can remember in the Super Bowl, you barking at him and be like, Malcolm, please shut the fuck up. Can you please, like, walk over here? Like, we do not need to piss Tom Brady off, but you just didn't care. How did that relationship go?

Like, is there a relationship? How did you go about getting him to write that forward? Yeah. So, like, you know, there's only the relationship from a competitor's standpoint. And just being around the league, being a peer. but as we were thinking about the title of the book, you know, I'm like, okay, you know, who are the type of people that should,

they should write your foreword? And they're like, well, people who, who know you, but also have a, that validate kind of some of the things you're saying in the book. And I'm saying, well, if the title is a legendary defender, then who better to, to kind of talk on that than my favorite opponent. Yeah. And I'm like, Tom is one of those guys who I've had, he's, you know, when he retired, I didn't even realize how significant of, like,

a character he was in my game. Because I'm like, well, if he's not playing, like, who do I go against? Like, where is my motivation? You know, so, and I, but I just remember just a lot of the things I've even learned from Tom as a competitor, you know, I'm in those joint practices. And I'll never get a ball he threw to Randy Moss.

I'm playing, you know, cover two. I'm on the backside safety. We're doing a two-minute drill. So I'm like, you know, for me, even when Brady retired, I'm like, you know, I'm like, damn. who am I going to go against? You know, I'm looking around the NFC South like, damn, he was really a big

part of my motivation every year. You know, but I'm like, all right, who was my favorite? If I'm going to say legendary defender on the front of the book, then I need to, who better to write that narrative or that story than Tom Brady, my favorite opponent.

And I just got a lot of respect for him, like who he made me be as an opponent because I knew I was getting ready for Tom Brady, like constantly, you know, a lot of those moments are in the book as well. So, you know, it was one of those things that he was, he was at least, you know, I've been trolling them these last few years about the Super Bowl. At least he wasn't, you know.

He's got like seven. Fuck, if you're in your feelings, dude. That's a you problem. We could have one. Yeah. The other guy I want to ask you about is Dan Campbell. You were only there for a second, right? But I remember texting you because I was like immediately when they hired him, shocker, I was like,

yes, I love this guy. Yeah. He's like my kind of guy, dude. And I think a lot of people looked at the cover of the, book and they were like oh he's just this dumb jock he's fucking got a big pickup truck and all this stuff but he's a really sharp guy and you know like he's talking about biting kneecaps but there's a lot of intentionality about the way he's going to build this program he's going to hire coaches that played in the league some of our guys you know um he he's a physical outfit he coached under

sean pey he's smart and he was a pretty good player like he had a long career and you played with So, like, were there any impressions of Dan Campbell as a teammate? You know, I played, he was the, he was the coach. Oh, he was the coach. He was the coach. Yeah, I played for him. So I'm watching like, oh, this guy's intense. You know, like, so, so when he got the head job, you knew that that's going to be a physical team.

He brought Aaron Glenn with him, like I said, a bunch of other coaches who were former players. So they're going to be, they're going to be able to relate to, especially a young group of players and get them to play probably more mature than they actually are. Yeah. And we see that. They're a physical bunch. They're, you know, they're gritty. That's all coming from the head coach.

You're going to embody who that person is. So when he's talking about biting kneecaps and all those things, it sounds funny to the outside world, but internally you're like, that means you're dealing with 53 guys that have bites your kneecaps off. Yeah, exactly. And that's pretty tame shit compared to some of the stuff I heard out of New Orleans. Yeah, right. And I played for Greg too.

Even when Greg wasn't doing that, people were like, whoa, just the verbiage. But yeah, no, and that's, you know, you say cut the head off the snake. I'm like, well, that's a metaphor. It's a metaphor. Killed the head and the body will die. Yeah, what did Mother Ayahuasca say about Greg Williams? I had to shed some of that that condition. He definitely had a brainwashed.

Yeah, I mean, so I'm a big Dan Campbell fan. My last question for you is Ohio State related. It's really a two-part question. Number one, why do you think it took so long to find a good quarterback from Ohio State and C.J. Stroud? And then number two, do you hate Michigan, Atlanta, or the Cowboys more? And how would you order that? All right, I'm going to start with this second. It would go Cowboys because it's closer to the Mississippi.

Michigan is a little further removed. Yeah, and you always beat them. Yeah, and I've always beat him, so it's never been a problem. So I would say Cowboys, Michigan, and then the Falcons. Eight week down there. I actually have a line in my book, like a quote. I'm talking about how I would never play for Jerry Jones. I would retire before I play for the Cowboys.

So I'm like, let that stick between the pages forever. As far as a quarterback, look, man, I don't, I can't, you know. I can't. They gave Troy Smith. That was my favorite. I love Troy Smith. He got a bad rap in the league, man. He was pretty good. Yeah, Singletary, you know, had a little rough go there head coach and kind of buried his career. I thought he was pretty good. I did too.

But since then, I think we haven't had many, like, pro-style quarterbacks to come out of Ohio State. And I think when you talk about transitioning to the league, you know, if you're not able to to add that like pocket presence and throwing along with the the zone read and the quarterback runs. It's just tough. Like it's tough to do unless they build the entire offense around you like they, like we've seen with Baltimore or Philly. I think we've had those type of quarterbacks until, you know, Strape is really playing well.

Yeah. And we see him developing. But, you know, it's, that, that collegiate game doesn't always translate to, you know, to the lead. Yeah. No, it's, I mean, especially at quarterback. It's really hard to call. And then, you know, the context around you matters, no matter what draft pick you are.

It's always feel bad for guys because I was there as being a high pick on a bad team. It's like, you know, well, it's easy in a lot of ways because you're making money. You're set. You know, you're going to get more opportunities. But it's a shit show, you know, there. And the expectations are high. And I think Bobby Sloick's done a nice job in Houston with enough pro style elements to, you know, and this guy has done a great job of adjusting.

Tell the people what you did this weekend. Was it the Hall of Fame at Ohio State or what happened there? Yeah, so I just got inducted to the Ohio State's Athletic Hall of Fame. Awesome. That was cool. So myself, and it's about 13, inductees Nick Mangol was also one of them. So that was cool. You don't talk much.

No, it doesn't talk much about it. I was on a panel with him. I'm like, does he hate me? He's just probably like people feel when they first meet. The two of you guys having a conversation. It was very few words in that conversation. But, no, it was awesome. We got to, they played Maryland for homecoming,

so they brought us on the field of halftime, recognized us, all those things. So it was definitely an honor. My parents got to come in and see all of it. It's great. Congrats, man. That's awesome. Well deserved.

We got to see James Laronitis, our guy. One last time, the book is What Winters Won't Tell You Lessons from a Legendary Defender. Legendary Teammate. legendary off the field legendary all in the field uh and a great guest i appreciate you taking all this time bro and uh it's good to see you congrats on the book dude congrats big congrats i know an author so appreciate you big dog all right brother love you hey love you too man