Green Light with Chris Long - Mike Sando! On JJ Watt To Arizona & Russell Wilson. NFL Ref Sarah Thomas! On SB LV & NFL Rules.

Episode Date: March 2, 2021

(01:10) - Welcome and a Special Birthday Announcement. (06:10) - Mike Sando on JJ Watt to Arizona, Russell Wilson's Future and NFC West Outlook. (43:35) - Sarah Thomas on First Woman to Referee Super Bowl, Referee Life and NFL Rules. Sign up for your DraftKings account at https://www.draftkings.com/sportsbook and use promo code : Greenlight Green Light with Chris Long: Subscribe and enjoy weekly content including podcasts, documentaries, live chats, celebrity interviews and more including hot news items, trending discussions from the NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, NCAA are just a small part of what we will be sharing with you. http://bit.ly/chalknetwork Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

One thing that stood out is all of these teams, except for maybe the Saints, are iconic branded franchises, right? And Russell Wilson's obviously talking about his brand and his legacy to put that Raider, you know that Raider shield, right? It looks cool. Your dad wore that shield. The Bear C, you know, the Dallas Star. You see those things and that's marketable.

And you're a hero in those cities and fan bases. You're anointed forever. The St. Louis Rams shoulder patch, circa 08, right? there under the Reebok emblem. Happy Tuesday, everybody. This is the Greenlight Pod. I'm your host, Chris Long. I want to wish my Bubba a happy fifth birthday.

My birthday's today. He doesn't always listen to the pod, but Waylon, love you. Cannot believe you're five years old. It is actually insane that my kid is five. The way I think about it, three of these time periods and he's going to have his learner's permit and by the time he's 15 I mean who knows cars are going to be driving themselves so he's going to be just like leaving the house

at 12 like going to hang out my friends like hopping in my fucking Tesla I hope that's not the case I actually like driving and I don't want my kid to have a Tesla I guess that's up to me happy birthday big man what age do we cut his uh his tail his he's He won't let us cut his Joe Dirt tail. We've always let him rock the mullet since he was a kid. Then it kind of evolved into a tail. Now he literally tells his mama when mama's been cutting his hair over this pandemic. Don't touch my tail.

So at what age do we put our foot down about that? Or is he just going to be rocking a Billy Ray Cyrus haircut? throughout his entire childhood into adulthood. Love him. One day he's gonna come on the pod. All right, anyways, today we have a pack football pod. We have Mike Sando because right as we were sitting down, we got the JJ Watt news, it was funny because

I was getting ready to do this show. We had Sarah Thomas on the books, Obviously the first female official to call the Super Bowl, along with so many other accolades. And first, she is unbelievable. We've got that coming up in a bit. But on the current event side, really no news was popping. And I was like, man, I just feel like something's gonna happen today.

Maybe something's gonna happen. And it's probably gonna happen right before we start recording the pod with my luck. And that's what happened. So we scrambled. Actually, I threw a Hail Mary to a Mike Sando, who is the terrific writer that currently pens articles for The Athletic and has his own podcast called The Football GM podcast,

and he caught the Hail Mary. So we'll have Mike Sando first reacting to the JJ Watt News. Listen, my first reaction was I was shocked. I was also, I thought it was. was an interesting choice. I was shocked by the Cardinals. I don't think of them, although we've said this before in this pod, like that they're a year ahead and that we love Steve Kime

and love Kyler Murray and, you know, Cliffs holding his own and they're exciting. I just didn't think of them as like a team that if you were trying to win right now that you were gonna sign with. So I think this is a big win for Steve Kahn and for the Cardinals because it says to me, that players are buying what they're selling.

And, you know, JJ's not going to maybe win your championship by himself at this stage in his career, but he's going to help pairing him with Chandler Jones. It's going to be fun. And you've got two Walter Payton Man of the Year patches on the field at once. Never happened before, evidently.

Larry Fitzgerald, if he comes back, and JJ Watt. So interesting. The chalky favorites did not win the race, for JJ Watt and we were wrong here. But what feels good about saying you were wrong on this one is that everybody else was too. Find me a list that had the Arizona Cardinals on it. We thought he was dropping hints. We thought he was a Peloton guy.

Then he said he doesn't have a bike. Then I thought that was a hint to say that he's not going to, he's not going to be a packer because they ride those bikes to training camp. You know, he was fucking tweeting about my. mitochondria, I don't know where he's going with any of this stuff. I'm glad he wasn't doing a big decision thing. So good for him. Went with his gut.

They are at the very least a team that's going to compete for a playoff berth. So although you might look at it and say, it looks like you chose a little bit of money over being a contender, maybe it's not that simple. I will ask Mike Sando about that. Oh, and like I said, NFC West, guy knows the Seahawks pretty well. what does you think about Russ?

I'll ask him about that as well. And then after that, we have Sarah Thomas. So there's a blast from the past for me, a guy who I used to talk to after a lot of practices and games, Mike Sando. Mike, how are we doing, ma'am? It is great, yeah, I'm doing great. We go back to what you were,

what was your rookie year, 08? 08, maybe. 08, that was my first year. That was the year ESPN launched. the 18 Divisional Blog Network. Okay, now they go to, they went to 32 since then, but I was the NFC West guy, so I was there. Yeah, you did it all, man.

You were like the go-to guy on the NFC West. And so, like, in perpetuity as something happens in the NFC West, the first guy that crosses my mind is you. And it's not just that. It's, I read your stuff now, and your stuff's amazing at the Athletic. And I know you got a podcast as well, the Football GM podcast. But it's pretty cool.

something to come so full circle that I used to have to answer to you after practice and now I read your stuff to help me do my job at this point. So it's pretty. It's a weird. It's a weird thing being around for a little while, you know, and now I'm 50 years old now and I'm like, oh, you know, are you 50? I'm 5-0. It's crazy. You know, my first year covering the league was 98. Dennis Erickson, I was covering the Seahawks. The Dennis Erick and Seahawks with Warren Moon. I mean, Dude, you're dating yourself, but like, we had Jeff Passing on from ESPN the other day, who was terrific. You guys are both ageless wonders. Jeff looks like he's 17.

You look 30. You look the same as you always look. So Mike Sando does not age. Well, a guy that people are saying is getting old is JJ Watt, but obviously the Cardinals don't think so. Two years, what, like 32 million? It just can't seem real to see him in a different uniform. Especially since, you know, the last two or three years, he's played most of the game. I think he missed, you know, a couple years ago, but he's had two 16-star games. I'm with you.

It's a weird thing when you see a name like that suddenly changing teams. I know Houston has their own issues, right? I mean, he probably was looking to get out of there. But yeah, three-time defensive player of the year. And I think he still plays pretty well. You know, you probably know what he was, but he's going to help Arizona, right? He sure is. And I guess now at this point, one of the biggest unanswered questions of the off season is going to be answered. It has to be Arizona with hard knocks, right? Has to be.

Absolutely, yeah. I think that's a great one. Well, we'll see where these quarterbacks go. I mean, we'll talk about Russell Wilson a little later. If one of these guys moves and goes to a different team, maybe that's the team. But I think Arizona is interesting. It sure is, man.

I mean, and also his decision is interesting to a lot of people. He was not on my list. Was he on yours? Not at all. Like they asked me, you know, when he, when he was available, they're like, hey, do a thing of like what you think the best fits would be. And, you know, you're trying to get into a guy's mind. And I think that's a big joke in media and for everybody of like guessing what's important to a player. Right. Right.

Because most people who've never made that kind of money think, well, if I had whatever amount of millions of dollars, I'd just go play for a dollar somewhere. And that's not how it works. It's not that simple. No. It's as somebody who's been through. the situation where you leave a team. We went through this last week where, you know, fans ask me, what do you think JJ's thinking about? Well, a lot of times

what you're not realizing is that any given player is thinking about 50 different things and factors. You know, if it's as simple as trying to win a championship, you look at the Vegas odds. I mean, which I did a very good job of towards the end, but not everybody's looking at, well, Philly, there was a long shot.

But, like, yeah, I thought Green Bay, in a lot of ways and probably his best chance to win a Super Bowl and be close to home. But maybe that's not what he wanted at all. I don't know. Does it feel like he chose the money over, you know, a contender or is it not that simple?

See, I think it's a bunch of things like you said. So just looking at it in retrospect, now that we know what he chose, you might say, hey, maybe a little bit of a warm weather climate is just a little bit of that. Maybe that's 5%, right? Maybe getting out of Houston was the main thing, right? So then at that point, money is a huge part of it, not because JJ Watt needs the money or he's greedy, but for what it represents.

You know, when you go to a place, that money determines how much they value you, right? How much you're valued matters. And then also where your sort of rank is in the league. I mean, that stuff matters to anybody, right? You come in to a new job, whatever it is, even if you aren't doing it for the money, it doesn't mean that it's not important. And so who was going to pay him a lot? I think they paid him pretty good. Maybe some of these other teams that wanted to add them on the cheap, right?

Like Green Bay knows their championship team anyway. Right. So maybe they're trying to get them on the cheap. Well, show me, how can you show JJ what you have a spot for him or a role and that he really matters? You can do it with money. That stuff makes a difference because of what you're saying, because especially if a room's crowded on a good team and there's going to be a lot of guys who are getting reps. Like it sounds selfish, but you're a football player. player first. You want to, you want to prove you're not washed up. You want to prove that pressure

rates don't mean a shit or whatever it is. You know, the analytics that have been pointing to him trending downward. Actually, some have been trending upward. But he wants to prove he's still got it. And maybe for him too, hey, I want to be paired with somebody who, so I'm not going to get doubled all the time. He looks at Chair Jones. You know, maybe that's the thing. He knows DeAndre Hopkins there. Maybe they've been talking throughout the year. Who knows about what's going on in Houston or hey, how's it? How's Kingsbury over there? That's a big one. Kingsbury is great. You see him on Draft Data's house. That's like our locker room. I mean, it's really chill here. You know, we're not, we're not uptight, man. This is a great place. And you'll come in.

You can, you know, you're going to play a ton. You'll play as much as you want. I think the money also means like, it gives you some security. JJ Watt pulls his hamstring in OTAs or whatever. He's working out this summer, you know. Yeah. And something in his back goes or something. he made the right call, you know. Yeah, I think the weather thing, too, circling back to what you said in the beginning, is something we mentioned on this show is grass, warm weather,

when you're north of 30, and you've been through everything JJ's been through, and a lot of that, I'm thinking about when you have a bad back or you have joints that are acting up, and your coach tells you we're going inside today because the weather's shitty outside. So we're going to run around on bad turf,

two, three days before the game. That makes a huge difference in how we feel. And there's no better grass than Arizona grass. And there's no better weather than Arizona weather. That's good for an aging body, dude. It was always hot. Remember they used to do that NFLPA survey of the fields, like which one the players like the best. It would come out like around the Super Bowl every year. And Arizona would always be high. He gets indoors and warm weather and grass. They play indoors on grass. That grass field goes out of there. It's pretty good. I think that's got to be huge. Think of the maintenance that it requires for him at this age to be what he thinks is an elite player. I mean, what he's doing to do this? And to go out to the practice field on the frozen tundra in Green Bay or Pittsburgh or someplace? That was the, so that that's the big question then in my mind is you had some chalky kind of favorites that, you know, for me, Green Bay in a lot of ways, was outside of the money. I'm just thinking of that. I'm just thinking of that. I'm just thinking.

like a football player was a great fit. Now, you mentioned one that, yeah, if the grass is frozen over, that kind of sucks. And if LaFleur doesn't take care of his players, I'm not saying he does or he doesn't, but you made a great point about calling a buddy, hey, Kingsbury, what's he like? Dee Hop says he's great. That matters. But what do you think is the thing that eliminated some of these chalky teams, like a Green Bay or a Cleveland or a Buffalo? I'll default to money. I mean, I think that's, probably. I think if those teams had had the same offer or a little more, might make you think, right?

But I think those teams are more judicious with their money probably right now, right? They might be a little bit more up against it. They're already good. They, you know, especially for, the other thing from a player standpoint is like, how do you predict for sure who's going to win at all? How many times has a team, a guy done that and you go somewhere and then it's a different team that year, you know? I mean, Rogers has been playing for 15 years and he's won one Super Bowl, right?

You know? Yeah. Drew Greys, one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. He's won one. So you can try to pick your place for less money and then just be wrong, you know? So Arizona, they're probably not going to win at all, but who knows? No, I mean, and that's the thing. You're looking at that division.

Anybody can be really good in that division. They wouldn't be, I think what confuses some people is maybe they're not thought of as like a true contender for a year or two, but we've seen teams that were kind of fringe just catapult themselves into the conversation. And when you have an X factor like that quarterback, you never know. And one big deficiency they've had, they've gotten a lot of pressure,

but they don't have anybody up front that really scares you. You know, they've got like guys, like they acquired Marcus Golden again, who's a damn good rusher. He's had flashes. You had Hassan Reddick who had a five-sac game. Chandler Jones was hurt this past year. So you saw this football team last year,

that threatened people before Kyla got hurt, and I think lost some momentum in that Seattle game. I think a feared pass rush can put them in contention to win that division. Why can't they win that division? Here's why I love it. We got Russell Wilson telling the team that they gotta fix his line.

He's obviously looked like he was concerned about the rush late last year. And now you had this guy to the division? I mean, are they trying to chase Russell out of the division? That's the question. That's like Steve Kime, diabolical Steve Kime, GM's like, Russell's right on the edge here. Let's push him. Let's get JJ. That's exactly. I was thinking to myself. I literally have a question written out. Is he trying to drive Russ out of the

NFC West? So great. Like it's just a chess game. It feels like it's not only going to make their football team better. And I don't want to overhype the signing because it's not like, hey, listen, there are other defensive linemen and rushers that we'll get to in a second who I can make a case for having a better year next year than JJ. But it does when you pair him with Chandler, scare people. And one of the people that scares is Russell. And Russell's talking about leaving. And that has to factor into what you're doing. And I don't think people think about that enough when you're active in free agency playing chess within the division. Yeah, who do you got to beat? They're thinking, okay, we're hopeful of Kyler Murray that he can

take a step and be really good. But Russell's, you know, one of the top three quarterbacks in the league. We have to overcome that. How do we do that? Well, he doesn't like pressure now. He said that, right? He used to run around and all that. Maybe he doesn't want to do that as much. He's talking about wanting to play 10 more years, you know, all those sorts of things. I think also from an Arizona standpoint, this sort of came to my mind. You know, they've like sold out every game since they got that new stadium way back 15 years ago. Yeah. But they have to work for it. Yeah. It's a place where you have a lot of people from other places, right? It's not an automatic ticket. So I think when you can add a JJ Watt, when you're trying to generate excitement around your team

in that market, it's not Green Bay, where they, just show up and there's a waiting list for 40 years. Yeah, it's a huge signing for Arizona, name signing. They can now sell Kyler Murray and JJ Watt. DeAndre Hopkins, Jander Jones is less of a known. Pat Peterson's going to be leaving probably, right? So it gives them a real name, I think, that they can sell too. So you're absolutely right. It's such a good point. And on top of that, it hit me that they played chess in the draft last year. So they thought, and we'll see how it pans out. But with Simmons, right? Um, you know, Simmons. You know, Simmons is in part in that building because of a guy like George Kittle, you know, like the ability

to match up with some of their foes in division and identifying who those are. I think I just think Steve Kime is, there's GMs that I just tend to trust at this point, at this juncture. So we're talking about Russell Wilson. Yeah. You've known him for years to cover in the NFC West and being in Seattle. I think you know who's the most bummed if he gets traded the rushers in that division and I you know you've seen it I've I've lived it um whose fault is it mostly organizational partially russ some variation of that or one-sided um I think that he has a real be the real beef that he has is hey you know we haven't been on the cutting edge offensive We have a defensive head coach.

You know, the defensive head coaches are always going to default to run game defense, minimize mistakes when things don't go well. And so as Russell Wilson has become a more complete quarterback and a better passer, not just a guy who ostensibly always had to have the run game and the defense, as he's carried more of it, you'd like to feel like you're on the cutting edge of what's going on offensively. And Pete maybe stifles that a little bit, just as a defensive coach. It sort of reminds me, this is showing my age a little bit, but if you go back to when John

Elway was the first 10 years of his career, Dan Reeves is his coach. Dan Reeves is a borderline Hall of Fame coach. I mean, he was also the GM of the team, very, very powerful. They went to Super Bowls, but L.A. was frustrated. And they ended up changing to Mike Shanahan, and John Elway enjoyed like this Renaissance. He finished his career and had great numbers and became a great passer, not just a great quarterback leader, you know, two-minute guys. So that could be the legitimate criticism of that Russell Wilson won't have.

I don't understand why it's going public like this. Like what's, I feel like Russell or his camp aren't really telling us everything of what they're mad about. It feels like a little bit of a push to start a fight a little bit or does he want out? Like you don't do this if it's just, hey, I wish we had a better guard. I wish we had a couple of better guys inside. Like the things that he's actually saying, that's not enough to go nuclear, is it?

I don't know. I don't know that it is because, I mean, doing this, you risk like, okay, what about the guys who are there playing alongside you and blocking for you? Everybody knows it's a business, but there's like a certain way that you throw the organization under the bus so that you don't throw the dudes under the bus.

And I'm not saying he did that, but what I'm saying is like, you know, you just have to be careful and listen, I'm sure in a perfect world, he's not thinking he's going to finish his career in Seattle. Right. That's what it seems like, but it's almost like, it's almost like if you're trying to break up with your high school girlfriend, you don't always say the exact reason why. You don't just say it drag it out for like a year. You just don't return the call for a couple. You know what I mean? It's like there's a lack of maturity. Yes, you're, yeah, like just say what you want.

say what you want and you're so right. And adults do that too, though. It's like, okay, they're going to break this thing off. And so, you know what? I just, you almost pick a fight. Or just premature enough to tell the other person what's wrong. And, you know, hey, if you can't meet my demands in this relationship, I'm out. But he's also, like most of these quarterbacks, they want their legacy.

So you don't want to ruin what you had in Seattle or be the bad guy. Yeah, well, you're absolutely, because, If you're trying to get out and you're Russell Wilson, you do want to be the good guy. You have been a good guy. You have been, you know, a model citizen and somebody that Seattle is probably going to look back at in 50 years and think of them as like a sports legend, an icon in the city. You've got relationships that you don't want to mess up. I'm sure he's made business relationships there, not like, you know, people in the tech industry

are going to not want to work with him if he goes and plays for the Bears. But he does want like a good standing in that city. and I wonder if like this this kind of back and forth the way you're framing it is not telling us 100% of what you want eventually leads to a cross wires and then it goes south and then it goes really south that's the worry one of the weird things about it is like Pete Carroll is known for being you know a player's coach almost right right the atmosphere it's not a doom and gloom people like come into work but and empower your personalities you know like, hey, if you want to speak out on social issues or you want to speak out on politics or police brutality or whatever, do it.

Yeah. Have your voice, you know, and that's, that's been a pretty cool thing, right? Like, players like that. But so many of these top players there sort of leave almost to shooting arrows at them, you know? It's like Richard Sherman was salty. Earl Thomas was salty. Marchion Lynch went back and forth, you know. Bobby Wagner stayed, but, but I'm trying to think there's, there's, Michael Bennett, you know, was there. And all these guys maybe later, they'll all be at the reunion and everybody be happy.

But it felt like it was tense. Doug Baldwin a little bit. You know, these were all great, great players, tough players, won a lot of games. And yet they sort of, maybe when people leave, it's always a little messy. But it seems like it's been messier than it should have been for what a good atmosphere it seems to be when they're there. I also feel like he's had a collection of guys who are like alpha, al. Like, you know, like they've just landed dudes who are just the leaders in the room. You're going to hear their voice the loudest.

They're going to be bold. They're going to say exactly what's on their mind. And so I wonder if like a large percentage of them naturally are going to voice their opinions when they leave because that's the type of alpha kind of guy. I mean, Richard Sherman's going to tell you how he feels. Michael Ben is going to tell you how he feels. Cam Chancellor. What a leader is Cam Chancellor. Yes.

Yes. Earl Thomas, can I tell you how he feels? Like, they're just, when you put enough of those guys together, and this is why I think Pete, for all the knocks on Pete, that, you know, some of them are legit, and the analytics crowd can't stand him and all that stuff. And he is playing kind of old school football a little bit too much in defense-fed coach thing, whatever.

But I think what he does really well, and time will prove this out, just like with, you know, Mike Tomlin, he has managed personalities well. Now, I'm not comparing A-B or some of the issues that they've had in Pittsburgh and kept them. But there are a lot of personalities in Seattle and have always been. And I think that they all coexisted until it didn't work out, until the L-O-B dismantled until you couldn't pay everybody until it had to be Ross's football team.

But they did a remarkable job of playing together and using those personalities and harnessing them. Yeah, and I guess in the end, you have to be honest with people and tell them that, hey, we're not going to pay you this much anymore or whatever. That becomes hard, especially for, like you said, those personalities. I mean, those guys are really, you're lucky on your team if you have one or two of those guys. They've had about eight. Yeah, they had eight or ten of them. And one of them, the one you don't hear anything from is like maybe the biggest alpha of them all

in Bobby Wagner. Yeah. And so that's, he's a funny anomaly there because, you know, you just, you don't hear from. him. You know, Russ is different from that, though. You know, Russ is like, remember when those guys were there, though, you'd see those stories come out like, hey, Russ, you know, is Russ one of the guys or, you know, and I think he's always one of those guys who's a little aloof or a little distant from, uh, people in his own way, you know, and I wonder, that's why I wonder like saying these things, you know, does it matter? Does it affect relationships? I don't, yeah, because they might just write it off as just

Russ doing some. Russ being rest. He's a little off anyway. You know. Man, no, I think he's finding his voice, honestly. I think he's always been finding his voice. That's just my take on it. And I think he's still figuring out how to tell people, you know, exactly what he wants. And this is maybe, you know, a symptom of that where you're like, what is going on here? Like, you know, you can just outright say it.

But are the hits and the pressures on him or is it, do you think it's a, you know, a lack of of investment in the O line because he does get hit a lot, but I tell people a lot of those beautiful deep balls you see him launch, he's had to buy time, and he is creating a little bit of a tough situation for the guys in front of him at times. There's no doubt they've had line issues at times in part because they haven't resigned a bunch of guys who were just okay. You know, they had a bunch of guys like James Carpenter or Bruno Jacomini. They're starting players in the league, but someone else is going to pay him more than you're going to pay him if you're Seattle and you've got to pay Shirm and Chancellor and

Marshall Lynch, real front line guys. So they made some choices there that left them without as good of an offensive line. But at the end of this season, if you would have asked me, hey, what are the three things that Seattle needs? I would have been like, okay, you know, I think they could use a slot receiver to give Russ a quicker option, you know, just something that you can get it out.

They need a tight end. They tried Greg Olson, but they could really use that. And then, you know, then I would probably go to, hey, what does every team need? Give them another pass rusher, maybe, you know, that sort of thing. I was not at all thinking this offensive line, they got to get fixed or Russ is going to get killed. I just didn't think that was the issue. Second half of the year, they played really good defensive fronts.

You know, they played Washington. They played the Giants. They played Philly. They played the Rams twice, except in the playoffs. And I think anybody who plays those teams, even though some of those teams are not marquee teams, the Giants defensive front or the Eagles defensive front, I mean, they have players. And I think that those defenses did a good job against Russ and against Seattle. And they were all down the stretch in the second half after he was on fire the first half.

So it was just created this contrast. And people were like, well, Pete got conservative. And it's like, well, who you play is a huge part of it in this league, right? Isn't it who you play? Almost no offenses do great against the top defenses all the time. No, no, no, I mean, it's, it's, it's, when you look at your schedule card at the beginning of the year, we'd look at, you know, do we have a run of teams that are actually going to throw the ball in a row? Like, because there's rushers, you want to get in a rhythm and that sort of thing. Like, do you have a run of teams that have patchwork offensive linemen? Do you have a run of teams that have quarterbacks who aren't mobile? That would be a big one for me. Like, if I get a month straight of, you know, Kyle Orton, that'd be great. But it's not always, going to happen and I think Russ probably knew coming to the season. That back half's tough, but I don't think he, I don't think he understand how, I don't think he understood how sideways

it would get because there was obviously the Seattle, the implosion in the Cardinals game, where they lost that game, the first one in the desert. And then he kind of pulled himself back out, but then he just never got his footing. And that first half, you're right, he was an MVP candidate. So when you, this is a good one you can answer as a player. So for, for, forever in Seattle, even though Russell Wilson was great. When you played them, you're worried about 24, Lynch, or, you know, they're going to run it. And so you play a certain type of defense, a certain type of coverage that, you know, you're going to get, maybe you're going to get beat on some of those throws down the field after he buys time because you're worried about, you got eyes in the backfield and you're really worried about them controlling the game. They're going to play defense.

And I feel like this year, that whole let Russ Cook thing happen where they really were above Kansas City even, above Andy Reed of how much they were throwing it. And I think then teams play you differently. You know, I think when you play, teams played Peyton Manning differently, then they play a team that has a great running game and it's going to hand it off, right? Then you play a Mike Shanahan team. Oh, absolutely.

And the way we thought when we went up there was, yeah, I mean, like, the identity of that football team was a little bit different because this was like in the transitional years where it was going from Legion of Boom as a defensive football team to its Russ's team. Like, you know, my last year was, 15, but we used to get after him and we loved playing the Seahawks because they ran zone

sideline to sideline and we had the front to disrupt the zone. So, you know, where some teams might have had to load the box even more than us, like we felt like if we could stop the run with light boxes or lighter boxes, then we're going to make Russ really beat us. And he's one of the best quarterbacks of all time in my opinion but back then they didn't make him be one of the best quarterbacks of all time with regularity so it was literally marshons team that run game the defense and a few shots that always broke your back in a 13-7 type ball game we knew that was the kind of ballgame it was going to be when we got up there and and you're right the way teams play them is totally different when they're unleashing him and the more they throw the ball in for a second down

it'll change things even more, but you got to have a run game to cash that in. Your run game becomes the change up, and they just haven't had that. And I don't know if that's the way Pete wants to play ultimately either. Yeah. And maybe, you know, they just got Shane Waldron, who was a McVeigh guy, you know, and is going to run that offense there. So we'll see if they can, you know, sort of find that balance. I think tempo's a part of it, too.

They could play faster than they have. Yeah, and I think they will. I think that's going to be a big part of it, which is that's one of the weird parts about this is, okay, if Russell has beefs about how they play offense, I think this coordinator changed helps that. And I think he was sitting in on it. I think he endorsed it. And that's why I wasn't anticipating this to come out, like right after the Super Bowl for him to just go on the offensive. You know, Dan Patrick Schro, Ellen DeGeneres. It was a plan, right?

It wasn't just like he made an offhand remark that got taken out of context. your Pete Carrier like what the fuck the Ellen show like I got to like usually I head coach don't have to worry about what's on the Ellen show but uh yes but it was like he was you know saying these things like and so then that's why part of me was like okay what there's a there's a motive to this that is bigger than because if you if you want to if you think the offensive line needs to be upgraded you can say that internally like yeah what are we going to do you know right and now maybe there maybe he's done that and they said mind your own business So it sounds like to me you think he's not getting moved.

And in any of these, in any of these circumstances, I think we're going to, we're going to encounter more and more. Like the likelihood is that these teams are not going to want to move with Deshawn Watson unless Deshaun just wins the pissing contest. Or, you know, Russ is not going to be for sale. Nobody's rushing to make phone calls to ship Russell Wilson. But do you think, do you think there's any chance? I think that this potentially sets the clock going for the future.

Right. So he's got three years left on his deal. In theory, they could franchise them. He could be there for a long time. But does this now, are they going to be a team now that is at all the quarterback workouts? You know what I mean? We're going to hear about that. And maybe they draft one in the third round or maybe next year they're looking at one.

If he doesn't get traded now, is it fractured enough that they're getting ready to make sure that they could maybe move in a year from now. That wouldn't shock me. The four teams that his agent put out were baffling to me. Okay. So give me, give me the most baffling and then the one that actually makes sense. Well, Chicago is baffling to me because, you know, unless he thinks he can go in there and the GM and coach are vulnerable and he could get a seat at the table if that's really what he wants. Yeah. Go in there and help pick the coach. And then you're in an iconic franchise. I think one thing that stood out is all of these teams, except for maybe the Saints, or iconic branded franchises, right? And Russell Wilson's obviously talking about his brand and

his legacy to put that Raider, you know that Raider shield, right? It looks cool. Your dad wore that shield. The Bear, Sea, you know, the Dallas Star. You see those things and that's marketable. And you're a hero in those cities and fan bases. You're anointed forever. The St. Louis Rams shoulder patch, circa. Oh, eight right there under the Reebok of the Reebok emblem, just right there. Exactly the same. It's right there with the Dallas Cowboys Star. So that was part of it.

Then offensive coaches at the other ones, you know, that was part of it, I think, too. Maybe he's looking to do that. I think Sean Peyton would be huge for him because he idolizes Drew Brees, who's a shorter quarterback. They've built that offensive line to create some better visual throwing lanes for him probably. Sean Payton knows how to fine-tune, tailor that offense to a specific player. He can play Tayson Hill. He can play Drew Brees. You know what I mean?

So he probably thinks he could go set records there. And then you get in the whole thing, okay, sort of like we're guessing on JJ Watt. Does Sierra want to be in Las Vegas? Or, you know, maybe there's a team for everybody here. You know what I mean? There's sort of the team where I could go win and get stats, that's the Saints. You know, the team where I could go down as the hero in lore for Chicago because they've never had a quarterback going back forever, right?

I could do that. Vegas, hey, it's the entertainment capital. Dallas, the marketing, the biggest stadium, the brightest lights.

I could see Russ in a Vegas show. Yeah. Did you see Russ? And I guess the first day he walked into camp, his rookie year, could you ever imagine that Russ would get so quote unquote cool? Never, you know,

I think they were so, I think, what are the, I'm drawing a blank of what they called him when he first got there, like the robot. He was just so, I think he was so, he blew away everybody by how serious he was. Like, he was already like a 60 year old man. He's always been like type A just from watching him like because he played my brother in high school. So you'd see him and you were just like, this kid is the kid who spares no attention to detail.

I mean, the maturity was off the charge. Like he had his life plan. You know, most of us fumble around and you get into this or that. And by the end, you looked back and it wasn't part of some grand plan. You knew this guy so you got that job or you went to this team or in your case or whatever. No, he's like, I think he's constantly every day reevaluating where he's out on his journey to Canton and being, uh, owning a team or something. You know what I mean? Yeah.

No, he's thinking bigger things than, than I guess, then I guess I'm thinking. I'm just thinking about getting these pots out. All right, last thing. Mike, who's a team, I guess, out of that group that lost the most by not signing him? And of all the free agents left, who do you like best? To me, maybe Tennessee lost the most because I feel like they're holding on. You know, I feel like Tannenhill's not going to play that great for every. He lost your offensive coordinator.

Who knows what that infrastructure is? Derek Henry has so long being a running back, right? And then defensively, they lost Dean P. They didn't really have a replacement. Clowny didn't work out. They got bad on defense. So they need to prop that thing up. And I feel like so for a team like that that maybe is going to drop off, that hurt.

Yeah, that really does. When you have Mike Frable there who is with them, right? You'd think you might have the inside track. So that would probably be the team there. What was the second part of the question? The second part is I'll read them to you. The ones left. Leonard Williams, Von Miller,

Shaq Barrett, Bud Dupree, Clowny, and In Gokwe. So out of those like marquee guys, give me one dream fit that's going to work out the best out of those names. Like for Shaq, it could be just staying in Tampa. But somebody who's going to get a huge ROI on one of these guys. Leonard Williams, a good young player. Would he be a Patriot? You'd know better than me.

Would that be a Patriot signing if they have a bunch of room and you're trying to get better quick. You know what? And I don't like throwing this name around, but you know, like, could use a Richard Seymour, not that he's Richard Seymour, but that that is such a valuable kind of dominant,

like they've paid guys up front there that are not sexy names because they're integral down lineman type guys who can do different things for them. Leonard would be the most high profile of those teams. The other day I threw out that I think Leonard would be fun in Dallas because if Dallas is going to be more aggressive than they were this year hopefully they are

yeah he's a guy who who aggressiveness unlocked his game vertical a vertical scheme where he can get off the ball him Lawrence but yeah I mean von Miller shoot I'm buying him low he's going to be incredibly motivated coming off this injury I can just tell he's he's chomping at the bit yeah So like I haven't gone through and thought of like all the schemes and stuff, but, you know, the Raiders need a lot of help defensively and play your old team a couple times a year, but you might not, you might be a playoff team. You know, I don't know if they're going to go win at all. Is there a team you love for him?

I mean, I'm trying to think of who he's been with schematically, you know, he's with Wade, who's not really doing something right. He could be anywhere. I'm trying to, let me, let me think, let me pause for a second here. Let's go through. Yeah, I'm almost thinking like, you know, it's not a Mike Zimmer. I'm trying to think of who the... I'm thinking of somebody who's a rush or way.

I mean, Buffalo would be, and he could just be a sub guy. I mean, they could find ways to play him on first and second down. Buffalo is... You think about their front, and I love Jerry Hughes. I mean, Jerry Hughes has been criminally underrated his entire career, but if you add somebody that really scares people up front

as far as like just winning one-on-ones with consistency, they're a team that's very close and doesn't have a formidable pass rush Mario Addison you know I really like Buffalo so I had Buffalo as a team for JJ Watt too of course he'd have to be freezing there and you know maybe he doesn't want to do that but I like I like Buffalo for them I know this isn't probably what anyone's going to think of from you know everyone gets into the salary cap and all of that but shoot Kansas City could you imagine oh having Chris Jones Let's just say you want to let's just say Andy Reid said make this happen.

Come on a one year. Get healthy for one year, Vaughn. Just get, come win a title for one year. We'll do a one year deal for $15 million. However, it is we'll restructure whoever we have to. See, we're just going to make a run. See, that 15, that version of a pay cut sounds so cool. 15 mil.

We'll just, we'll get this done one year. You just got to eat it for one year. 15 milt. It's going to be a rough year, Vaughn. like that's what you got to sell them on? It's like the clowny sort of rental year, you know, but it's more than that. Clowny got 13 or whatever. You're sort of Von Miller's better than Clowny, but he's coming off an injury.

It's not the best time for him to enter into a long-term deal because you're going to have concerns as the team about his health. What does he have left? So, but for his standpoint, he doesn't want to do a prove-it deal where I don't get paid. Right. You know what I mean? But he doesn't want to lock into a bad deal. He wants a chance to, we'll get one.

bite at the apple and be the highest paid guy. So what if you go and get 16 sacks and win a Super Bowl for Kansas City? Oh, you're going to. And you just crush Drew Locke or whoever's playing for Denver. You get five sacks against Denver, guaranteed. Oh, he'll have a Kaleel Mac Day. Remember the Killeel Mac five sack day? So that's my fantasy.

As I'm thinking about it, one really, you mentioned Clowny, one really good selling point if Snyder and the guys up in Seattle. I say, look, if you're a D-Lyman, come here. Look what we got out of Chedavian Clowny. We've got three and a half sacks out of Clowny. That's a lot. That's just five years of his career. I mean, come on.

Mike Sando, I appreciate you, man. It is great catching up. Love, love, love your work. So if you get a chance to go read, Mike, do it ASAP. Thanks so much, Chris. It's been a lot of fun. Appreciate it. Thanks, buddy.

Really great reconnecting with Mike Sando. Again, does great work. Love is writing. Sarah Thomas is somebody I'm really excited to talk to. I played in, I guess, four games that she officiated. And honestly, I don't remember my reaction to her becoming an official in the NFL, probably because I thought that, and she'd probably tell you the same thing. I can't wait to ask her.

It's not a big deal. Can she do the job? I mean, that's all anybody cares about is how competent you are. And I can only imagine that somebody who's had to work extra hard to overcome obstacles and barriers must be exceptionally talented and exceptionally competent. And most refs you talk to are pretty damn cool. I've run into my old, like, ACC refs before at like a bar or maybe. maybe on a football field because they matriculated the NFL. And those guys are always,

it's just always a nice little conversation. They know the game, they take their job seriously. And she was the first woman to do that on so many levels. First woman to officiate a major college football game, Memphis and Jacksonville State in 2007. And then 2009, she's the first woman to officiate a bowl game, Little Seasons Peace Bowl, Marshall, Ohio. And I just like all these firsts she stacked up.

It wasn't like she became an NFL official overnight. She really grinded for a long time at this thing. So I definitely want to talk about that journey and what a big deal it is that she's accomplished so many first. But also I just want to talk about the rules and like what goes into being an official, you know, behind the scenes. And, you know, helmet to helmet stuff, holding. They're not even calling that stuff anymore. What gives? I'm a D-Lyman.

I got a referee on the pot. I'm going to ask her. So there's a lot to talk about here. Without further ado, let's get to Sarah Thomas. We've got Sarah Thomas here. Gosh, the list of firsts that you've enjoyed, that you've kind of trailblaze for other women in the space. I mean, the list is too long.

I guess I should start by asking you, is there a favorite first of yours at all your, football accolades? Chris, honestly, every season, I mean, just that first game, that first kickoff, that's what I live for. I love it. Stumbled into it because I hated the officials when I played basketball or the umpires when I was playing softball.

And truth be told, they probably hated me. But seriously, falling in love with it. And every time we get to go out there and kick it off, I love it, that first start of the season. One of them, you know, in 2009, I believe it was, you were the first woman to officiate a bowl game, Little Sears Bowl, with Marshall in Ohio. And one thing that jumped out of me is the MVP of that game, Martin Ward, his quote follows as, I noticed her before the game, but that was it. Once the game started, she was just doing the job that the line judge does in every game we play. It didn't matter.

She was a woman at all. Did you take that as a compliment at the time? Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. I want to be an official. I don't want to be designated as the girl official. But I know that I am a female and I'm not going to change that. But still, yeah, I take that as a huge compliment.

Yeah, because I figure it's tough for you towing the line between, like, listen, there are a lot of young girls looking up to me. And, you know, it's obvious this is a positive thing for football. But you also don't want to make a big deal about it. So how do you tow that line? Chris, I don't know if I really do a good job of it because, yes, exactly what you're saying. I know that there are girls. I have a daughter that is watching me, not just on the field, off the field.

But knowing that I just want to be an official. and it really didn't hit me. And I've said this, I was out of game, my second season in the NFL, and a coach comes up to me, and I mean a legendary coach. And he just said, thank you. And I said, for what? And he said, just what you're doing. I have two daughters.

And they now believe they know more about football than I do. And I've been coaching football there in time. Right. So when he said that, I just was like, this is going to, this is going to leave a mark, if you will. Yeah. But Chris, honestly, I have two boys too. And I want them to understand that being with a successful woman, driven woman, that they don't need to be intimidated. And they need to look at her as like a partner and treat her with respect.

And I jokingly tell them, if you ever call her up and she's working just as hard as you are and you ask her what she's cooking for dinner, I will find you. and I will find you and I will, you know the rest. Liliam Nason. I've heard the story about your brother when he brought you to that meeting in 1996. You walked in the door. You say the reception was warm as your first officiating meeting and it was on a whim? It was. It literally was.

I just joined my brother there and he told me. He stopped me before we went in there. And he said, hey, sister, you're going to get some stairs. These are a bunch of old men sitting their ways. And I'm like, I can handle them. So we walk in and sure enough, George Nash is at the front. I mean, he's just an old fellow. And I'm being nice about that.

And so I just look at him and I said, is this where he become a football official? And I can't repeat what he said. And then he said, I guess so. But you know what, Chris, if it hadn't have been for him and those guys at that association meeting, I wouldn't be where I am. They didn't sugarcoat. They didn't just hide, you know,

keep things from me. They even said, he said, I told the guys, hell, she's 23. She's in better shape than all of us. Her eyesight's better than us. I mean, that's all true. That's all true. You're going to be a high school official at this time? That's right. Back in the 90s. And then at some point, you were ready to walk away from officiating period now? Yes. What happened? So, of course, I was, I had two kids during my 10 years while I was officiating high school. And about the eighth, ninth year, my white hat here, Larry Tucker, he said, Sarah, I really want you to be a line of scrimmage official on my Juko crew. And he said, you need to apply. And so I got my stuff together.

And about the end of the ninth year, he says, all right, well, don't apply. He said because he said he'd never hire you. The assigned secretary for the Juko Association here in Mississippi said he'd never hire a woman. And so I just, that 10th season, the boys are getting older, Bridley's starting to play sports. sports, you know, the whole I need to be at home and, and do that. And in any occupation, Chris, I mean, I tell my kids all the time, I don't want you to start at the top. I want you to start at the bottom and work your way up. And that's just like in the world of officiating. So when he told me that, I said, you know what, if they're not going to take me on my merit or

if I can work, I mean, I'm not going to prove myself as a woman. I mean, it's hard enough doing this just being an official. And lo and behold, what I thought was my last game, there was an NFL scout at this championship that I was given the, I guess, granted to work. And he called me up. And he said, I think you got what it takes to get in the next level. And I said he had my attention with NFL. I mean, really, these people exist. And he plugged me in with Gerald Austin, Comfort USA. So I bypass the Ducco level here in Mississippi. And the way I heard it was, there was a call. that, and you may not want to give yourself too much credit, but you kind of saved the day on, what was it, illegal formation or something to that effect? They noticed you running back on the field

to get something right. What was it about that call that wasn't right? So the chains had moved. And that's just the big cardinal sin and what it seemed like, it was forever. They couldn't get the chain set up and it was a cross for me. So when I saw the chains move, I immediately looked at my auxiliary guy and I said, you're still in the same spot. You hadn't moved. He said, it's right. I work on back on month five, it's going to be first and 15. And when I went in, they set up like first and 10 after we marked the penalty off. It was just a little bit of a fubicle. But you fixed it.

Yeah, I guess it did. And they listened, which is great. And there happened to be a scout in the building, which is crazy. I don't think people understand that I didn't know this. I mean, shoot, I've been around referees my entire life. I did not know that there were NFL officiating scouts. What year was this that this scout picked you up to go? to Conference USA.

That was December of 2006, and then Gerald hired me April of 2007. And in 2009, you're officiating a ball game. And then next thing, you know, what happens to catapult you into the NFL? You know, Chris, it was the, I would say, of course, just the crews and the guys that I was around that kept support me and kept, you know, I guess just that camaraderie and the study sessions that we would do and then able to do the training camps. The saints are close by. They were in Jackson at Millsaps and I would go do that.

Then I would go to Metery and I would go to the training camps. The senior bowls and all those places that you can get some, you know, some looks. They were really concerned. There was a couple of supervisors in the NFL that were really concerned if I would be able to keep up with the speed. and agility of the athletes in the power five conferences that ultimately, I think, I don't know what percentage it is that make up most of the NFL. So sure enough, I miss a DOF, offside for whoever's listening. I'm sure everybody doesn't know what DOF is, but.

I didn't know that and I've been called a million times. I think you called me for off sides once. You did our Oakland. I looked this up and you don't have the comment or anything. But I had two sacks in that game. One of them I was off sides. Was that on your side or the other side? I would say the other side.

Thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, I figured it wasn't you. But I mean, it was just so quick at 33 years old that I looked off sides, but I was actually That happens. Yeah, you know what happens. It happens. There's a guy that's retired right now.

And as soon as I threw at a false start and his timing's just impeccable. He looked at me. He said, you missed it. Did you miss it? Did you miss it? I missed it. Yeah. I mean, it timing was, I even told myself jokingly, I said, the only way I'm going to throw it on this guy is if he literally falls out of his stance.

That's the only thing. I'm not, you know. Right. Yeah. So that senior bowl of 2014, players offside, he was a defensive end at Auburn. And then he sacked the quarterback. So I didn't make it to the league that year, 2014. And everybody thought I would be in.

in 2014. So I, Gerald Austin's talking to me and he tells me, he said, they're not going to hire you. And I'm like waiting for the punchline from Gerald, right? And he said, they're not going to hire you. And immediately I said, all right, what did I do or not do? He said, don't start with that self-doubt. And I said, look, you never wanted to like, you know, give me a pet talk when you were getting on my tail after I miss a play or do something wrong game. And I said, I said, I did something or I didn't do something. I said, but let me get a glass of wine first. So I got a glass of wine. But it was that play and how I know it was that play because I go to a minicamp, supervisors in the vehicle, and he goes, Sarah, number 55 will forever be your guy. And so I went and found 55 because he was there.

And I reminded him what happened. And I said, that kept me from getting into the NFL. I said, you've got me once. I said, but you won't get me again. And he said, well, I'm glad you didn't call it because it got me in the NFL. So I appreciate it. And wild guess that you don't have to confirm or deny this guy had one of the most egregious lined up in the neutral zone calls in playoff history. You don't have to say anything. Auburn defense event number 55 sounds like a guy I know that maybe played for the chiefs. I don't know. Maybe, maybe not.

So when you got to the NFL, you talked about like it felt like you deserved to be there that year, but the one call, which is wild. It's just like players. We make a play or we don't make a play in a big moment. And that could, you know, that could slow your ascension down or whatever. It could get you less playing time. But when you get there, do you feel like early on was there an instance where you felt the forces of like doubt kind of aimed at you? I don't know necessarily aimed, but I've seen it in some of the guy officials when they come on, you know, a rookie or their second year. And that first year, it's like you have a good year.

And then that second year, you're not where you believe you should be. And then certain things may happen. And then, you know, there's doubt towards the guys too. But yeah, sure, sure I felt it. And maybe it was warranted. I was a rookie official in the NFL. Yeah, yeah. But you know what?

Here's the thing. When there's a rookie official that pops on the field, I probably don't notice that it's a rookie official. like you know being real like the first female rookie official you're always going to deal with just an extra bit like they all those official guys mostly look the same to me until they got the flag in their hand but like you know when there when there's a woman on the field like it's a momentous occasion and it's in and there is a difference so i wonder if like at any point you did feel unwelcome yeah i mean there was there's uh yeah i mean there's but it wasn't necessarily competence bills

confidence for us. And there's some great coaches that didn't play the sport, right? A lot of them. But it was a huge learning curve for me at each level, honestly. Yeah. And, you know, another thing, the guys that have played it, them reading the defense as an official. And I would always read the offense. And whenever I was on my second year, I started picking up defenses. And it really made it a lot easy, not easier, but I could, I could sense things before. they would happen. And that's only, that's only progressed and made me a better official. But all of that to say, Chris, the great versus the good in the NFL. I mean, it's a small percentage of, you know, that separates a player. Yeah. And the same thing with an official.

And so if we constantly look at the doubt or whatever, and you don't start with number one, you won't, you won't have the longevity in the NFL. That's something, you know, I want to come back to the situational awareness thing because you just mentioned it one of my questions is going to be like do you as an official when the ball crosses the 50 and it's on like the 40 yard line or there's a sudden change are you thinking shot like we're probably going to get a block them up take a shot it's just one situation like football situational awareness and knowledge you guys have that too it sounds like you guys are are trying to anticipate a type of play you might see And as soon as the guys come out from the huddle and set up, I mean, you're immediately,

I'm picking up who I have. And, of course, I'm looking at who's defending name. Yeah, there's, yeah, third and long or fourth and short. What are we going to do? I mean, it's, yeah, it's constant. The football IQ is what I like to say. And, yeah, situational awareness. A lot of people like that in life.

But, yeah, no doubt. What about coaches? Like, when they come up to you because I've seen coaches do this or they've been like, hey, we got this play. We're running all week. You know, they're going to come conference with you before the game and tell you, presumably, to look for this abnormal thing we're going to do? Well, Chris, we meet with the coaches.

Yeah. We'll go and we'll have our pregame meeting in their office there at the stadium. And, of course, we'll ask them, is there anything for us or anything that maybe we should look for your team or the other team? And they'll mention it. They'll mention it. But this year, it was, I think everybody was just happy to be out there. Right.

What's the most dangerous spot on the field? Is it the umpire? Yeah, I would say the umpire would have been the most dangerous. But, you know, I've been hit. I mean, Kyle Rudolph crushed me in another way. Carl Rudolph hit me too, man. I didn't like that so much. You broke your wrist though, right?

It was the, like, what, how did that happen? Busted play, quarterback. Usually the quarterbacks are run straight at the, I was the line judge then. But usually they'll find us because they know we're the line of scrimmage. Right. And they've got time, they can run. and dump it right before they go beyond us. But this quarterback, he just flared out.

And when he did, I've got to watch him make sure he doesn't step out of bounds. So I take his eyes off of the receiver. And the defender, and sure enough, as soon as I peek to see if he's stepping out, he wings it. And I go to turn to look at feet. And I mean, I got trucked. And I believe it was Troy Aitman and Joe Buck. They were like, oh, she's going in for concussion protocol. and I tell everybody, nobody even asked me if I had a headache.

I did not go through concussion protocol. Oh, so that's false because I read that you did. Okay, that's good. All right. I just knew my wrist was, something was wrong with my wrist. Okay. And when I got in that tunnel, I tell everybody I lost my religion. I mean, I was so mad.

I was like, you got to be kidding me. The girl got hit on national television on Christmas Eve. And so they take me back there to the trainer's room. And I said, they're going to x-ray me. And I just looked at them because women have child. child bearing years, you know, they have to put this thing over us when they do an x-ray. So I said, hey, guys, by the way, I'm not pregnant. And they went, oh, yeah, we've never x-rayed a woman in here.

So that was, that was funny. And so it's broken, and I'm sitting on the trainer's table. And it was a one-sided game when I left, seven minutes and something. And then I look up and there's about four minutes and something left to go on the game. And I said, put this flint on. I'm going back in this game. And there was a player on the trainer's table. And he looked at me, he said, you're one.

bad whatever and I said the NFL security said you're not serious or I say oh yeah we're going back through that tunnel I love that I love that let's go I'm ready to play again all right here we go my kids though the funny thing is at the end of the game you can imagine the amount of text message phone calls I had and so I called my kids and they mom are you okay and I told him yeah I just have a broken wrist and they said well you do know you got run over by Kyle Rudolph on Christmas Eve because it was Christmas Eve oh that's good that's perfect How about number 53? How do you pick your numbers?

Like, we make a big deal out of picking our numbers. How do you all pick your numbers? All right. Well, this is funny. Number two is what my boys wanted me to get when I got hired because that was their baseball numbers at the time. Number two was already taken. So 53 was out there and I was like, you know what? I'm one 53 in the developmental program.

I was like, just take the one off and give me 53. And then somebody said, Sarah, you got to be kidding me. So you're the first. So you were 153, and now it's like you're in the league is 53. It's kind of weird. But you know what, Chris, it doesn't matter what number I have or initials I have on the back of my jersey. Yeah. Because it doesn't help me with fourth and inches at the goal line.

No, you're right. But some of our numbers make us look faster or slower. You know what I mean? So I just figured maybe. And this is another question. I've seen you scoot, man. Like a lot of these officials can really run. I wonder how many miles a game y'all actually log?

Have you ever like, I'm sure they got you all hooked up to Fitbits and whatnot. We've got these trackers, like the Bourne supremacy or whatever, what Jason Bourne had. We've got those same trackers. All the best athletes in the world have them, Jason Bourne, Sarah Thomas. They didn't get me one of those. So what does this say? How many miles a game to, I guess it varies per position on the field. Like maybe a line judge is going to move more up and I don't know.

Yep. So I average anywhere from six to seven miles a game. I believe the back judge is the one that probably has the most anywhere from probably eight to nine. Yeah. There's got to be some good athletes. Who's the best athletic referee that you know of that people are like low key, they should know about this guy or girl? You know, so I could go your age group of 60 year olds.

No, I'm not going down to that I haven't to either. I don't know. Dino Paganelli's pretty athletic back judge. He was in Super Bowl with me. Okay. Sean Hockey is pretty good. let me tell you something, Ramon George umpire. Ramon George.

He was a player in the league. Oh, really? Yeah. So do you think he sees the game better than other officials the first day, like what we were talking about earlier? Have you ever talked to him about that? Yeah, and he and there's another guy in the league, TK, Terry Killen, he played for Tennessee.

It's funny to hear them talk about it. They understand the game. They can see a read that's coming that, of course, someone like me couldn't, but they both have said they really did not know their, the complexity of the rules and what all we had to go through right but yeah romay george can scoop he is good tk's good too i would never know the rules that's why it's so interesting asking about them um how about like with the game changing just talking about rules right now the game's changing shorter passes like kind of more bubble screens like the passing games changes people are getting

to the run game through a bunch of different ways like so how do you call something like blocking down the field, like a legal blocking down the field. Like how are you guys handling that situation with the way the game's changing? So IDP ineligibles are, gosh, forbid if they're down there and they blocked and we've got no PI. But that's the whole thing, Chris. You're right with these bubble screens and the RPO's. If there is any glitch in the timing from the quarterback or whatever, those offensive

linemen are going to fire them. And we'll give them tweeners, you know. About two yards, but I got, they'll fool you because if they drop back at all, then they really probably got three or four yards from where they're starting because they're already behind the line of scrimmage. Right. But it's all in timing. It's all in timing.

Yeah, because we always feel like they get away with stuff. And one of them would be holding, which I just stopped looking for holding calls after a certain point in my career. Maybe it was because I wasn't good enough to get them anymore. Or like in actuality. But then there's also like the league kind of seem to de-emphasize holding. Do your best to explain to me washed up defensive end in the NFL what holding is today in 2021 in the NFL.

I think there's still a lot of discussion around that. But yeah, you know, especially you being a defensive end, we want to see that material restriction. You know, and once they restrict you and your feet, you're beating, then yeah. Um, matter of fact, I mean, that's, that's last year it seemed in 2019. That's what I should say two seasons ago. We, uh, it seemed like we were, you know, wanting to call holding off a technique. Yeah. Like the technique, the technique might be bad or a lot of backside holding. I remember that, that year, uh, when it really didn't have any effect on the play. Right. Because there is that kind of like, you know, if you're going by the book all over the field at any time, you could have.

probably a foul somewhere. Right. But there is like a certain common sense equation you got to put together in your head. Like, does this matter? Right. Sure. Absolutely. You know, there's rules in place and I'll never forget this.

This is what my white hat told me in high school. He said, sure, there's rules. But don't let the rules get in the way of a really good game. You know, to be so tiki tag or Gerald puts it this way, the spirit of the game. Yeah. I think in 2019, you saw a lot of the technique. This year there was more emphasis on clear and obvious. And there's got to be restriction.

And sure enough, that's what we had a clear message from Malta Anderson this year. Because there's a really tough one where like an end is burning a corner and he's ripped under. And he almost puts himself in a chokehold, you know. And there's like a fine line between what's restrictive and what's a tackle just continuing to rotate and allow that rusher to continue his path, you know, on a loop. the quarterback like there's a lot of gray area there. There is. That's true. When he's just, when you're ripping through and then like you say, you almost buy that rip, you're your clothesline and you know, you're causing it.

Yeah, it's tough. And then by that time when all that happens, yeah, you're, you could be right close to the quarterback, but a lot of times that ball's out, especially this year. That ball is out so quick. That's the thing about, yeah, the ball is getting out quick and sometimes you've got to get desperate to get there and sometimes you're getting held. Another one is a lot of times, and this one that is one that kind of bother me was if I get pushed into a quarterback's legs,

or if I'm getting held around my neck and then let go at the last second, well, I'm going to fall forward and hit the quarterback low, and then I get hit with a flag. You know what I mean? So do you feel bad for us? Well, Chris, I'm going to tell you,

I'm glad I don't have to call that. Right, right. Because I love when you hear the white hats talk about it, it's tough. It's tough. You know, and it's just like the, I remember when I got in and they were the defenseless receiver,

and now it's defenseless player, both offensively and defensively, but our inner thing in the world of these devax not going to be able to hit them. And they've adjusted. So, you know, when it comes to the RPS, you're talking about, yes, tough. I'm just glad I don't have to call that one. No, I know. I know.

How about helmet to helmet? Can the offensive players take a little bit more of the blame in some of these helmet to helmet hits? Yeah, you know, Kristen, it's tough for us. when we are on the field right on top of it. And they're here. They both are coming in. I think this year we had one that I'm not sure maybe it was an offsetting. Like it was both up.

Oh, yeah? Yeah, you're probably right. It probably could be just as much offensively as it is defensively. But it's a tough call. What do you look for for like intent? We were talking about this offline. A lot of times these conversations between officials and players really interestingly happen, like one of the first nights of camp or like,

Like the first, really in training camp, the first day we have a big padded practice and you have officials come in and help us get through our practices. A lot of times at night we'll meet and in the big auditorium will be players just firing questions at officials. So Sarah's been here before. Yep. I love it. So the thing is, and that was a huge thing this year with the rookie officials and of course

players. Yeah. Not having the mini camps and the training camps and, oh, because those meetings are great. They're great for us, y'all. but when it comes to the use of helmet, it's posture. Like when you just seen, you know,

took his head and go after him, we've, I threw a couple this year and then I've, we've counseled with some of the guys to pick him up. Like they missed him. Yeah. Because the changing in levels is the thing that's really hard. Like at the last second,

I feel like the posture can, you know, if you freeze frame something, you slow-mo something, it can always look worse than it is. Exactly right. That's exactly right. And one, one huge message about us as officials, mechanically.

Yeah. Our mechanics being in the right place to be able to make. And when you're talking about the quick passes that are coming out, we're not moving as much. Walt doesn't want us moving as much. And so you're right. I can look at posture, but if I'm running and not sitting, there's a lot of times my eyes are moving while I'm running. And so I could see the intent, but then I miss it. So we tried to just settle in and sit and watch.

Do you know when you've made up a call that's not so great? Like, how much do you get to look up at the jumbo trying to be like, oh, shit? Like that was me and I just got to move on to the next play. You know, it's funny, Chris. You do. You got to have that short-term memory and move on to the next play. You do. But sure.

Sure, I've looked up. There was one play. and I looked up at the Jumotron. I went, Helen Keller could have made that freaking call. How did we freaking miss that? You know, it was interception. But I'm watching the blocking in front. And I got to his feet late.

And when my downfield guy ruled interception, I'm like, yep, he banged that one. He nailed that one. Then I looked up to the Jumbotron. I went, what in the world? You know, I'll tell you one other one. I called a fourth time out my rookie year. Oh, did you really? In the NFL?

Yeah. You talk about wanting to crawl under the turf. Tom Brady did this this year, a fourth down. Remember that? They were out of downs against Chicago. So listen, if it happened to Tom Brady, you'd have it to a rookie official. It was funny, but you know, the thing is,

is communication is so key. Yeah. So key. And the crew I worked on this year with Sean Hockey League, I'm telling you what, that crew, I mean, they could have all worked the Super Bowl. We could have gone out to work to Super Bowl. Great communication.

I mean, me and my, sideline partner, Chad Hill. We'd come up with nicknames every week. I'd be Goose. He'd be Maverick or vice versa. Bonnie Clyde, Sonny and Cher. We'd, you know, we'd have a good time. And we just, everybody, we really communicated.

And when you have a lapse in that whole fourth time out. Yeah. Yeah, you just, the communication is key. You talked about the team, the communication. You guys have like a little mini team, right? How much you got, y'all talk during the week? and what's that kind of weekly product? Because I know there's like people have jobs too, right?

So, you know, how does that all fall? Really? I mean, I'm like, I feel like I borrowed time. I don't, I work pharmaceutical sales for a long time. And I literally would rob time away from that pharma company. I don't want to say. I don't want them to come back and get me to like the NFL football. Yeah, we still talk.

I just talked to Chile yesterday. I talked to hockey lady the other night. We're still talking. Yeah. But yeah, we'll have a, would have a meeting for about two and a half hours. pregame, of course. And Sean Hockley is awesome how he does a pregame. I mean, we are close.

It's like a family. And the chemistry, you know the chemistry off the field leads to the field. Has to. I mean, I mean, we click. It's great. What's the book on you? Because we know the book on the officiating crews that come into town. Because Saturday night, we sit there and we're like, all right, we got X crew.

They're up on ICT. they're up on, they're down on holding, so just know you get held tomorrow. They're not going to do. What is the book on Sarah Thomas? Because I know you do self-scouting. They'll tell you, it's funny. The coach told me, he said,

we all know you better not be in that neutral zone with you. Goes back to that senior bowl thing. There we go. You'll give me once, but you're not going to give me twice. You know, some of the receivers. would probably say I don't throw enough DH, but that's, that's a two-step process. And the ball's out so quick these days. But, you know, Chris, I just call what I see. And I want the guys to be able to play.

A receiver complaining about not getting the call? Yeah. I've heard of that happening once or twice. Well, if I'm a player and let's say I teleported back on the field, all of a sudden I could run again, and I said, I wanted to argue a call, or I wanted to have you look out. out for something. How can a player do that? What's the key to a relationship on the field

between player and official that's going to be constructive towards you being more informed on what's going on in that matchup but not pissing you off and making you not want to look that way? I'll jokingly say you get more bees with honey. And it goes back to that whole self-awareness, your football IQ, just, I don't, I don't care, Chris. They can come up if they say anything, and I'll address it. I understand. I mean, I've been, I've been told I needed some, some blankety blank type glasses, and then I looked at him, and I was like, well, where do I get those? I don't know where I could get those. You know, I just, I like, and then, again, something happened, and what other players was upset? And I looked at his teammate, and I said, why is he so angry? And goes, I don't know, you know, it's just, but if they wanted to come to me and they want, they just come to me, tell me, ask me. Yeah. Yeah.

last question wrapping it up here the Super Bowl which is obviously the enormous milestone for you and all those women watching at home that you talked about who are you thinking about I know your kids might be a simple answer but as that national anthem's happening as you're taking the field I know you're focused

but what are you thinking about in the moment as far as the implications of what you're doing this game kicked off and that crew and replay. And I remember the first Super Bowl I went and watched. I didn't watch the game. Of course, my kids were, but the crew. I wanted us as a crew and everybody that I talked to that congratulated me. I said, you just put this crew in your prayers and you pray that we go unseen.

We have precise judgment, clear vision, and we get this game and it's not about us. So it's about that crew. And did you stop and smell the roses like a day later or three days later? At some point here, you got to be happy. You got to be excited for what you've done. Yeah, you know, I mean, that Monday when we traveled back, we had a good little time here in Mississippi. But then we're going to have a, we're going to take a little trip, a little roadie to South Florida somewhere. A bunch of girls and we're just we're gonna we're gonna have a good time.

Sarah Thomas, uh, remarkable, remarkable journey and, uh, golly, I'm just inspired reading about it and having shared the field with you, um, a lot of respect for you. And if you ever find that official who called me off sides on that second sack, uh, in 2017, let me know. I don't think it was you though. Hey, look, and to you, Chris Long and what you do and what you stand. for. I mean, you're an amazing individual, was a phenomenal player, and your legacy will go on and on and on. I appreciate you.

Appreciate you. Thanks so much, Sarah Thomas. See you soon. Thank you.