Green Light with Chris Long - Roger Goodell’s BLM Video. Jessica Brand on Police Reform. NFL Mailbag Questions.

Episode Date: June 8, 2020

0:37 - Open and Chris' Thoughts on Roger Goodell NFL Video. 13:21 - Jessica Brand on Police Reform in America. 1:05:30 - Mailbag. Brutal Police Training Video (referenced in ep.) That Teaches Cops to Kill: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETf7NJOMS6Y&feature=youtu.be Green Light with Chris Long: Subscribe and enjoy weekly content including podcasts, documentaries, live chats, celebrity interviews and more including hot news items, trending discussions from the NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, NCAA are just a small part of what we will be sharing with you. 🌍🏀🏈SUBSCRIBE NOW ⚾🏒⛰️ http://bit.ly/chalknetwork Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

And again, black people 12 times more likely to get falsely convicted of a drug crime, five times more likely to go to prison for drug possession. We mentioned all the disparities in arrest rate, but then what happens after that? It's very clear to me that this is a systemic problem. Greenlight Pod. I'm your host, Chris Long, and I have a really informative show for you today. I apologize that it is late Monday, but we had a really good pod last Friday with Michael Bennett and Devin McCordy.

We figured we'd let it breathe. And also, quite frankly, I was a little. bit behind this weekend. It's never easy to strike the right tone, to find the right guest, to, to, you know, kind of achieve that balance of, hey, this is a sports podcast. We're talking about sports, but also every sports issue right now is kind of dealing with this awakening going on in our country, which is long overdue. And hopefully it will last. And hopefully it's not a couple-day thing. While we're in it, I'm going to be as in as I possibly can. I'm going to bring guests on that that lend perspective to my majority white

listenership. I appreciate y'all. I know you guys are interested in these causes. I also know that right now in a time like this, even if you want to do the right thing, say the right thing, it can be complicated. After you've done the A1 prerequisite, and that's acknowledged that there's a problem, then getting past that and saying, what are the solutions? Well, for a lot of regular people, it's just having these conversations and holding peers accountable. And a lot of these conversations, that are happening are tough. They're revealing people you know. They're also dealing with a lot of people who want to throw disingenuous stats out at you,

talk you in circles, having information, arming yourself with information, reading, researching on your own. That can be really valuable. And that's where I think, you know, having this platform, lending it to somebody who can do that is great. And that's why I have Jess Brand coming on today. She's a former public defender. She started the Wren Collective.

That's a social justice advocacy group. I also worked with her a great deal at Players Coalition in a few capacities. And she's great. She really breaks things down so you can understand them. She's not some sensationalist person. She's going to back up her assertions with hard data. And she's going to make sense of things. And she's going to help me and help us make sense of some of these cries to defund the police,

maybe what we're missing there, why that's maybe being a little. bit misrepresented by the rallying cry. And then also, you know, as you go out and talk to people about not only police brutality, accountability among police officers, but also the criminal justice system, she's going to help to kind of give you the facts and the perspective that you can go out and have these conversations with no cognitive dissonance. I mean, even if you have, you know, if you've arrived at the conclusion, albeit late, that we have a problem with systemic racism in our country, we have a problem with the way our country's police. you need information. You need to be able to go out and spread that word and do it with no doubt in your mind.

Talking to people like Jess really helps that a lot. And I do my own research. I'll continue to do my own research. I'm curious. I'm inquisitive. But that can sometimes not be enough without the context to frame what you're reading. So Jess will come on. We'll talk about systemic racism and illustrate the systemic nature of this problem and how exhaustive it is from, you know, you're meeting a police officer to getting into the criminal justice system to how you're sentenced, uh, etc. How you're tried by your peers. If you're black in America, also we'll have a mailbag after that.

Um, and again, you know, I want to strike that balance. So continue to give me feedback. Who do you want to hear from? What do you want to hear about? Uh, we will be getting to sports. I mean, for sure. Listen, this stuff's been going on for a long time. time and we've talked about sports throughout the entirety of this problem.

The fact that the light is shining on it doesn't mean that we're not going to talk sports. I got Bruce Ariens coming on on Wednesday. It's going to be awesome. He's the perfect coach to talk to because he's done a lot of really good things to be inclusive. He's tried to move the ball forward in his own way. His perspective will be valuable. But I also want to hear about Tom Brady. I want to hear about the bucks.

I want to hear about, you know, how you're balancing the concerns about COVID. And then also training camp, an abbreviated runway for the. those guys. So there'd be a ton of sports to talk to. Just bear with us. I appreciate you guys. Hopefully this helps you get into the nitty gritty without feeling overwhelmed. Sports-wise, today I guess I could talk about the Goodell video. I know we're a little late, but to give you my take on it, I'm cynical as the next person. I've worked with the league on stuff like this. I don't think they got it when I was in meeting rooms with ownership. I thought They were incredibly, you know, tone deaf in the ways that they would, they would talk about some of the issues that CAP was bringing light to.

They also seemed to just at times willfully ignore the problem. But this is a start. And I know it's the commissioner. That's who we've heard from. I know that saying that Black Lives Matter or that we're against racism seems to be a very, it's a low bar to set. but it's a start. And when you have a 70% black league, it's an important thing to acknowledge,

and that's what guys want. And so, you know, that video went out, led by Mike Thomas and 18 other players on Thursday night. And within the day you had Goodell answer the bell on that. And yeah, I'm cynical. Yeah, it's just a start.

Yeah, you got to follow it with action, but at least he did it. Now, was it a bit of an alley-up? Yeah. Do you possibly set the league up down the line to say, you know, hey, we did what you asked. Now leave us alone. Yeah, but I don't see that going this way.

I see it going differently. I think the heat stays on them through the season. I think it would be players protesting this conversation is going to continue. And big shout out to, you know, the guy that the unsung hero in this whole thing, Brendan Minner, who's an NFL employee, he's 27 years old, white guy, who orchestrated this video from his apartment in LA, just started cold calling essentially dudes to get going on this video. And he started with Mike Thomas.

And of course, he defers a lot of the credit. He said that he saw the need for this and watching the NFL whiff on their statement and then also listening to his black peers, working for the league on Zoom calls. And it became apparent to him that he needed to step up. And I think that's big. It's an illustration that sometimes we have to take the lead and do things that otherwise,

you know, maybe employs a league who don't look like us wouldn't feel safe doing that. This dude stepped up and he could lose his job over something like that, but he turned it into a really, I mean, if that was truly his idea and I'm not going to extend my cynicism to this kid because I think he was probably doing the right thing. and it wasn't an inside job where you're teeing up the commissioner, you know, with some sort of a nefarious scheme to say, oh, we checked that box. I think this kid truly went rogue, and I think that was a good thing. You can tell me I'm naive. I think that, again, Roger's statement is a start. He's got a long way to go.

And I think part of what needs to happen here, and people will look at that and be dissatisfied with it, obviously, because the elephant in the room, and that's the captain. doesn't have a job and that's directly as a result of the league blackballing him and that might be true. But the reason he can't say that is legal. You know, I believe it has to do with the settlement. I don't know that you can expect Goodell to publicly make that statement and invite massive litigation against the league. Now, what he could do is maybe they find a way to get cap back in the league. And they can do that without acknowledging the problem.

And the action is acknowledgement of the problem. Whether that's right or wrong, that's why to me he didn't answer that question. And hopefully Cap does get a job. I think he probably could still play. I mean, it looked really good last year. You can't convince me with all the dog shit quarterbacks in the league that he can't help somebody. And if you really want to be part of solution, maybe he can be a leading voice for you. You can't tell me he hadn't been effective.

I mentioned this last week on the pod. I had a guy asked me on a Wednesday in June 2020, years after Cap demonstrated. if Cap selected the right time during a game to draw attention to his cause, I would say so, 11 p.m. Wednesday, June, whatever it was, 20, 20, years after the fact. And you're asking me that question. He's in the forefront of our consciousness when it comes to this stuff right now. And I've had multiple people in my mentions say, hey, I was one of those people in 2016 that totally wrote off Cap and said, you know, he's crazy. He's crazy. He's radical, this sort of thing, and I see that there was an absolute need to listen at that point, and I'm sorry. So better late than never. Cap can still be part of the solution. A statement by Godell is just to start. Yes, I'm cynical.

Yes, it was a bit of an alley-U, but the players, kudos to them, especially Mike Thomas. These guys don't want to be talking about this stuff, but fix the problem, and they won't have to. Athletes can move the ball in a big way. I'm glad these guys are doing that. even if some of them didn't speak up in 2016. Some weren't in the league. Some were just quiet. It's better late than never.

And you can't underestimate the power of players. So we need ownership to speak. We need to step off the ledge. That's the real risk. They can hide behind Gidell right now. They don't have to get in the weeds with their local fan base, some of their sponsors locally and that sort of thing. I want them to step out like Gail Benson did.

Mara and Tish met via Zoom, didn't really have the same condemnation. Benson said that she's disapproving of police brutality in any form, essentially, to paraphrase her. I mean, she was specific and she made a statement, and that's something that I get a bad feeling that most owners won't do. But we'll see. One thing to keep an eye on when it comes to the NFL on the COVID front would be

mandating players acknowledging their risk, which would therefore theoretically clear. clear the NFL from liability for unsafe work environment. So that's one thing to keep an eye on from an okey-doke standpoint. If you're really cynical and you should be, you need to keep pressure on the league. And until they do enough, and that includes, I think, giving cap an opportunity to regain employment,

I think they'll always be looked at as part of the problem. I think it's important to look at the NFL and say, Listen, I think at certain points, we lost that of the fact that the NFL didn't start racism in the country or that the NFL isn't the criminal justice system. The NFL isn't police, but until the NFL stands up against those forces and confronts it with a league that's 70% black, they're part of the problem. And denying cap employment is just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, you look at the Rooney Rule and the failings in their hiring practices. I mean, they're complicit. They didn't start the problem.

They're part of the problem. They can be part of the solution. And if anybody looking at Roger Goodell saying Black Lives Matter is so disgusted that they have to watch a different sport, good fucking riddance. I mean, you've been watching black athletes risk their bodies for your entertainment. And I understand that you, quote, unquote, pay our salaries. But humbly, I would say, as a player for 11 years, it's a supply and demand thing.

Not only first, you should realize that if you walk away, there's going to be another person that's going to take your place to enjoy football. But two, we are giving you something of value too. And the reason players get paid so much is because enough people think that we do give something of value, and that's entertainment. We miss sports so much right now. And so athletes play a big role in entertainment, but on the flip side of that coin, they play a big,

role in being a role model. That's what you've asked for. And our role models are asking that the NFL stand up and acknowledge the things that are going on in this country that everybody right now is trying to fix. And we're all on the same team. But it starts with acknowledgement. And the NFL at least did that. We'll see where it goes from there. Let's get to Jess and then we'll do a mailback. So joining me now, somebody who I've worked with before a bit with Players Coalition and somebody who has a plethora of information experience. Previously, a public defender, now running the Wren Collective Group, which is a social justice advocacy group.

It's Jess, I know that it's been a crazy week for everybody, but for somebody who's entrenched with this stuff nonstop, where's your head at right now? I mean, it's a devastating time. You see so much pain. That's why people are flooding the streets in the middle of a pandemic. It's also a really exciting time. I mean, for so long people have been fighting against police brutality, mass incarceration, issues of systemic racism.

And you're actually saying real local traction and movement and people paying attention and people in the streets who weren't there before. And I think, you know, if we want to have a positive and hopeful spin on this, there's this idea now that things can really actually change. And I think that piece is really exciting. I think you're absolutely right. I mean, there is a there is a sense of hope that kind of has been paralleled by this. sense of anger and unrest. I think the latter has to happen to achieve that sense of hope. And I do think that we're at least talking about it. And it isn't everybody's consciousness. I mean, this is the most I've seen it in everybody's consciousness in my entire time as an athlete and as an adult in this country. So, you know, and there's people who are certainly late to

the party, but I've found it interesting. We're trying to get more folks involved. I think that right now is the litmus test for if you actually care. If you're waiting till the next George Floyd, and there have been thousands, you're probably going to be too late. But at this point, everybody's welcome. There's a ton of questions that I know people have. And having worked in this circle for a while,

I always tell people whether they're, you know, a neighbor of mine or another white athlete or somebody who knows what the right thing is but can't formulate an argument so that when they go and discuss this with their peers and there's people that are throwing disingenuous stats out and talking in circles, they can be armed with the right information. So that's why I think education is so important, and I'm constantly doing it myself.

But I think conceding that systemic racism is very real. And by admitting that, you're not saying every police officer is a racist. What you're saying is that the system creates disparate outcomes. And these are undeniable. Yeah, I mean, I think that's absolutely true. I mean, look, we believe in facts and evidence, in this country so you can look at numbers and they're revealing. We know that throughout the entire system from arrest to people who died at the hands of police violence, to people who go to jail

for certain crimes, to people who serve sentences, it's just longer for people of color in this country. And really only by ignoring like decades and decades of research in addition to just if you walk into an American court room, you really have to ignore all of that. If you are going to say there's not systemic racism that pervades. the system. And that's a terrible thing to say, but it's an important thing to acknowledge. But it's also okay. We acknowledge really, really bad parts of American history, right? We had slavery. We had Jim Crow. And only by acknowledging these things, can you actually move past it and reach a better solution? It doesn't make people inherently bad people to acknowledge that there's biases

and flaws in our system. It's actually what makes people good people is that they can realize where the huge cracks and thought lines are and then work to improve them. Yeah, I think there's this sense. among people that you talk to, there's this feeling of resistance that comes from not conceding some of these things because they're going to, in turn, walk themselves into being the bad guy. If you benefit from a system that you didn't create, that's not, that admission is not, you know, to say that you're a bad person. It's just this is the acknowledgement that, you know, our peers in the black and brown community in the United States, especially the black community right now, have been trying to be heard about

for eons. And I think that's the biggest thing when you look at this. I mean, sure, we want reform, but there is also a process right now where people are desperately trying to be heard. And it's just a fundamental thing. Are you even listening? And so, you know, Malcolm Jenkins, I thought, did a great job. My last year in Philly came out one day on a Monday and the people wanted to ask him questions, the reporters and the media, and he busted out the the flashcards, the big the big post boards. You still aren't listening. And, you know, people laughed at him and some people criticize them for that, but here we are a few years later. And that's insanely evident. So. And I think it's also made worse by the fact that you have political actors in this country

who try to tell white people that if they acknowledge that there's racism and if we try to heal those problems, they can't live, white people won't live a good and dignified life anymore. And that's just not true, right? This is the richest country in the world. There's enough for everybody. People can have housing. People can not go to jail. People can run through the streets equally, and that can all be okay. But when you have sort of a president who stokes these fires and says, well, they're coming for you, which isn't true, then people kind of tribalize and refuse to listen. And that's a real problem. And I think now we're seeing some of the unraveling of that. Yeah, I think some people get into the this fearful mindset that is stoked by the bad actors that you mentioned and Trump is obviously

one of the main culprits. But he might have done us a weird favor in that like the lights come on in the cockroach scatter. I believe that a lot of people have nowhere to hide right now. He has pushed us into this. And it's not like these things didn't happen under Democratic presidents and that sort of thing. No one's denying that. This shouldn't, this should not be a partisan an issue to me. I think that's where a lot of people miss the boat. But we have, we have been pushed to this impasse in our society right now where people are forced to reveal their ideologies and choose a side. And this isn't one of those things that there's certainly nuance and we'll go into those things. But I feel like, you know, in acknowledging something like this, that there is a problem.

That is a side choosing impasse. And if there's any positive that's come out of all this bullshit that Trump has created, it's that we know exactly where you stand. And I think he's emboldened certain people. And that's good news because now I know who's who. Why we're here. Big, big illustration today that I was looking at just popped up online. And we're looking at custody deaths that were being highlighted in a one year span between 15 and 16. So you're looking at these deaths in police custody. 13148 deaths in police custody in the U.S. 21 over that same span in Australia, 13 in the UK. It's unbelievable. And most people would concede that we kill people, you know, as a police force, or police kill people way too much over a thousand shooting deaths alone last year and usually

about a thousand a year. The use of force rates over that same studied period highlighted 273 instances per 100,000 black people. And you look at for white folks, that's 76 per 100,000. And, and that's ridiculous. I mean, that's undeniable. It's ridiculous. There's two, there's two steps to the acknowledgement here. One, that we have a problem and two, that the problem affects black people at a higher rate than white people. I mean, if you can't get on board with that, keep listening and, and we'll walk you through that. But let's start with the defunding police thing, because that's what's really come out of this this week. That's been the rallying cry. Why is this a viable? option and why can the phrasing be misleading? Yeah, I mean, I think when people here defund police,

they get afraid because they don't understand what it means. But look, there's a pool of money in every city and county in America, right? And you can spend that money on policing. You can spend that money on schools. You can spend that money on homelessness. You can spend that money on health care. And so city councils, mayors, they have to make a decision about the budget. And for decades, so much of that budget has gone into increasing police forces. So in New York, I think there's a, I think there's a, was a good study between 2014 and 2019. They spent the increase in police budgets went up 22%. They spent over $40 billion on policing and corrections.

They spent almost $10 billion million on homeless services. That's a huge difference. So when people are talking about defunding the police, they're saying, where should we put that pot of money. And should we decrease? A lot of them are talking about decreasing. Some are talking about total abolition of police forces, but it's different. People are talking about maybe we need to rethink where our priorities are. Maybe if we actually put money into our public schools, we wouldn't have kids who are out on the streets committing crime sometimes. Maybe we would have people who have viable employment options, and then they wouldn't be committing crime. Then we would actually be a safer community.

And I think the other thing people are saying is, look, we know that putting all this money into police forces hasn't actually made our community safer. I mean, homicide arrest, for example, are incredibly low in this country. At most, police are solving about 60% of homicides. And in some cases, that's as low as like 20%, right? The police solve right in St. Louis is incredibly low for homicide. So even when there are a lot of them, so maybe we should think about, okay, how can we actually solve these things and deal with crime and harm in our city in a smarter way? You know, if you had a cancer treatment that wasn't working that was never solving cancer, when I was never curing cancer, you would stuck with it and you would find another form of treatment that was more effective.

But for some reason, we keep putting all this money into policing, even though we know it's not solving crime. It's really harming a lot of communities and maybe there are other better solutions. And so basically what a lot of people who are talking about defunding are saying is, actually maybe we should spend our money more wisely. Right. Yeah, and that makes sense. I mean, when you look at it like a reallocation of funds, that's the way the government works. That's the way, you know, our society should work. And especially coming out of something like a pandemic. And there's a lot of unknowns and what it's going to take to pull ourselves out of this thing. We're going to need every dollar. And it's clear, as you highlighted, and correct me if I'm wrong, that there is no evidence of more policing equals less crime. And could you argue, Jess? I mean, if somebody were to say, well, of course, if there's less police, there's less police to identify the crimes? Could you, is that a valid argument? I mean, I don't think so for a couple of reasons.

One is you're requiring people, you're relying on people to report crime, first of all. And when you have a lot of mistrust between communities, especially communities of color and the police, which there obviously is right now, people aren't actually a reporting crime. So those rates of understanding where the crime is, those are a little misleading anyway. I think the other thing to think about is maybe that's okay. I mean, maybe because what crimes are police investigating in the first place? Do we really care if people are smoking some weed on the corner? No, I did it last night.

Right. No one came to your house. So nobody cares. So, you know, do you care if a homeless person has to sleep on the street? No, I don't care. You know, they have no place else to go. They don't like it either. So it's not necessarily a bad thing if you have fewer police officers to be rooting out some of these things.

The other thing is you actually then could have people who respond to some of this stuff who actually understand trauma, who actually understand mental illness, because you could take that money and invest in people who actually know how to deal with these problems, right? These are not equipped to show up to help someone who is having a schizophrenic breakdown. They have no idea how to do that. It's in fact, totally unfair that we ask them to do that. And those things really escalate very quickly. What if we put that money into a bunch of doctors and social workers?

You're actually signs and see it. You'd be a lot safer. And so, yeah, so maybe you'd have fewer stops for marijuana, but you'd have much healthier society and community. And I think that's a net plus. I think it's a great point. I mean, this isn't just to rag on every police officer. There are a number of police officers who are put in positions that they are not groomed to,

to confront effectively. And you're talking about police aren't necessarily. social workers. I mean, there's, they have to be trained to do so many things and they're still not trained, in my opinion, uh, to, to a standard that we can be happy with. But then you lump in a ton of these encounters that would be best suited for somebody with the expertise outside of a police officer. So I mean, yeah, it's, it's wild to think that moving some money around to make better use of, um, of, of, of city budgets that are strapped, federal budgets that are strapped. I mean, that's common sense.

That's things we can get behind. And your example of cancer research, you wouldn't just throw more money into the same, you know, it's the definition of insanity. It's not been working. Let's try to get a different outcome. And that's what they're doing in Minneapolis right now. I mean, where are they with that?

How realistic is that? And what could that look like? Well, I think you don't really know yet. I mean, the city council's resolution. And for those who don't know, the city council came at last night, and a majority of the council members have said they're willing to disband or defund the Minneapolis Police Department. But what that means is sort of left up for a lot of community engagement and community input.

And I think that's great because the community, you know, there's so many activists there who have been working on this for so long, really amazing local organizers who have thought deeply about this. And so they're going to take the time to really listen to those people before they make some decisions. But it could look like any number of things. You could take a lot of that money, like I said, and invest in an alternative responder for. You could take that money and invest in a program like cure violence. So cure violence basically takes community interruptors. Often people who have been involved in the criminal justice system and their past,

and they go into communities where they're from, and they help. They basically mentor usually young men who are sort of at high risk of committing violent crimes, and they provide programming and skills development and time. tons and tons of counseling for them. And that's the thing that has been shown to reduce violent crime. Murders plummeted in Chicago when they invested in that program. In Philadelphia, you saw stuff for crime really, really go down. So now Philadelphia was going to bring back that program. And sure enough, that money has been frozen with the COVID-19 stuff that's happened. But the police budget went up $14 million. Minneapolis could take that money and put it into some kind of violence interruption program that's actually really

effective. So there's a lot of options. It's so exciting on the table in Minneapolis for how you actually keep a community safe and protect communities and protect people against the police violence that's happened time and time again. And I think that's that's key because if you're talking about turning a little bit more of the allocation, these resources over to the community to interrupt. And by the way, highlighting again, that it hasn't worked, policing has not worked the way it's been in that city and many others. This diversion to interpersonal violence, the people who don't want to hear about it usually pull, which is black on black crime, or what about people killing people? Well, number one, the people killing people and communities

are not getting paid to do it. Number two, the police aren't able to stop this stuff. And so why don't we turn it over to groups like you mentioned that have track records of improving the way their communities conduct themselves as a whole? And so I think it's great. And also, you look at this like Minneapolis being a case study, if they do, you know, pass some sort of unprecedented legislation in that city, is there a sense that, hey, the better we do with this, the more other people are going to look to us as the model? I think so. I also think, I mean, even just by doing this that set a standard for what's happening and what's possible in other cities, right? So when you realize this is possible in Minneapolis, Austin, which is where I live, the city council is really

rethinking, what kind of ordinances and limitations do you put in place on the police when there's been a lot of violence here too? And I think this ratches it up, right? Because if before, all you were going to do is ban chokeholds, now that looks pathetic, right? You actually have to think through budgets and violence interruptions and accountability measures. So too in Philadelphia. I mean, it's wild what's happening there. There's so much activism around the city budget. And right now, if they increase the police budget while Minneapolis is saying, we have to rethink policing entirely. It really makes those political actors look like they have no political will.

And that matters to elected officials, right? Because they can get voted out of office. And if they look like they don't have the same political will as people in other cities, they realize they may lose office, frankly. And so I think this puts a lot of pressure on other people right now, regardless of kind of the long-term outcome of it. Federally, they're talking about one of the hot button topics on cable news right now is Democrats with some sort of legislation they're bringing to the table for reform.

Have you seen much on it? And what are some of the issues sometimes with tackling this thing at a federal level rather than local? Yeah. I mean, I do not want to kind of who pooh-poo like really well-intentioned. mentioned government actors because there's a lot about this bill that is good. It's 136-8, but not read- Nice. Yeah, I read it this morning.

Yeah, right. Over-poppy. But, you know, I just sort of just zoom out for a second, right? Policing is local. Police budgets are local, right? So to think that you can solve the problem of police brutality federally, is it a little like when people claim you can fix mass incarceration federally, right? You have 1.5 million people who are in state jails and prisons in this country. So federal bills aren't going to change that.

Policing is the same way. That being said, there's a lot, I think, that is good about this bill. Obviously, we should not have chokehold and we should not have no knock warrants, right? They end in death time and time again. They don't increase safety, right? No knock warrants, which allow police to just kind of run into your home at one or five in the morning, dressed like a SWAT team unannounced, a big shocker that that ends up with people dead. Yeah, guess what?

Guess what? You come in my house at one in the morning. I'm not going to hear you whisper police at the door that you kicking it down is going to wake me up. And I'm shooting. Yes. And like I'll have to check my guns. Right. Totally.

Where's the Second Amendment crowd then? Yeah, not. They're very, very quiet. Thoughts and prayers. I think it's the same thing. But, you know, so I think that stuff is really good. it also increases the power of the federal government to go into place cities where there are bad police forces and work on consent degrees and issues subpoenas. They have a lot of that power

now already, but that's actually been shown to really matter in terms of reducing police violence. So I think, you know, that piece is good. There's other pieces, you know, having not read all 136 pages that I'm more skeptical of. Like, it will give state attorney general's power to also so investigate local police forces. Again, my attorney general in Texas is probably not going to investigate the Austin Police Department anytime soon. Florida, right? I mean, any number of states.

So it'll be good for some places, not for others. Yeah, absolutely. And as a whole, I mean, we're talking about whether it's defunding police or reallocating resources, however you want to talk about it. The goal is less pointless encounters. That's one of the goals. You know, as far as where are the, these encounters are coming from, there is a ton of evidence that police are a lot more likely

to run down a black citizen than a white citizen for a number of reasons. And so how do you see biases? What's the easiest way to illustrate bias in policing? And we're not talking about killings and brutality even. We're talking about just stops and that sort of thing. Yeah, I mean, stop and frisk is probably the one that everybody's sort of heard of and everyone, everyone, everyone knows. And so, you know, I'll go to Philly again because there's a lot of readily available data there. But, you know, they looked at a random sampling of cases about a year or two years ago, the ACLU. And they found, unsurprisingly, that black people made up, I think, 71% of all stop. And I think this is actually my favorite or least favorite statistic about this

study. And Ridenhouse Square, which you know, right? Yeah, right there. Right. Okay. So, you probably didn't see a lot of black people living there. I think it's 9% of the population. They made up 75% of all people stopped in risk in Rookhouse Square, which is wild. But it's, you know, because police have a lot of biases and they see a black person in that community. And that's who they stop. And so, you know, it is this great idea that we can root out racism in policing and in an American society. And I hope that one day that happens.

but in the meantime, just end stop and fritz. Just stop arrest for quality of life offenses. Stop arrest for a lot of these drug possession offenses. And you're just going to eliminate these disparities. Because if you say, it's like, again, like thoughts and prayers in the gun violence movement, right? If you say, well, we're just going to try to work together to create some solution. All that means is that black people are going to be screwed by police over and over again

because you're not going to end racism anytime soon. Yeah, I think when people are saying, let's have a conversation about stuff. The conversation is the is kind of the prerequisite. The action is what's needed. And I mean, we can conversation racism away or think we can. But I think we're a generation or two off from being in the place we want to be. In the meantime, let's do some substantive stuff. And stop in frisk would be one. You know, I was looking at the New York City statistics dating back to 2002. And, you know, of course, the reason this is implemented is to stop violent crime and gun violence and that sort of thing. Or that that's so they say less than one percent. of the time are they finding a gun and less than 3% of the time are they actually finding, you know, criminal activity. So dating back to 02, 10% of the stops were white people in New York City, 80% were black and Latino. You can't explain that away. It's when you're talking about police intuition, which is a dangerous thing, anybody's intuition to solve crime. I mean, that illustrates very clearly where your intuition leads you, whether it's subconscious or it's

actively racist. And so, you know, for anybody saying, and this is one of the largest departments, these are some of the largest departments in the country. I mean, here are the facts. These are evidential facts. Like, this is real. So I don't know what you could argue with me. Look at it. In Milwaukee, between 2010 and 2017, 700,000 stops. And in over 50% of them, police failed to demonstrate reasonable suspicion. And over that time, black people were six times more likely to get stopped. And and searched in pedestrian traffic stops. So it's not just, these aren't cherry pick.

You could go state to state, city to city, department to department. Everywhere. And I think, you know, the way people argue and you hear this is what you hear from police unions,

right? Or like sheriffs or police chiefs sometimes. And I don't, I don't mean to say, by the way, that every sheriff or police chief is bad. There are lots of good ones in this, in this country,

but they are really being stained by the bad ones. But what they will say is, well, if we stop, stop and frisk, people will be dangerous. And there'll be more crime and there'll be more guns. And of course, you know that it's not true because you just cited statistics about the number of guns that are actually recovered during stop and frisk. That's negligible.

But what happens is they get out, they give a press conference and a newspaper will print that. And they will say, well, the head of the union says this. And then the public defender says, you know, why. And then the public has no way unless they do their own digging, which people don't have time to do to really unpackage what's true in there. So I think we need some better reporting when people are covering crime and covering these policies that actually is willing to call BS when someone says, well, this is going to make us a more dangerous society if we end up there. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's pretty simple. A few of these statistics would go a long way.

And, you know, if you were to posit that, oh, well, I'm a racist and I think that black people are going to more likely have, you know, whatever police are looking for them on them. I mean, there are studies like ones in North Carolina that this is, this is source from, you know, police departments in North Carolina. This is a police study. Black people had two times the rate of search and half the rate of contraband discovered as their white counterpart. So, you know, I'm not sitting up here saying that like white people are inherently more dangerous. I'm just saying that hypothesis isn't necessarily supported everywhere. And there's plenty of statistics. And we can go down the line, you know, if you're listening and you're saying, well, I need to hear more. while we can't do a whole pod on just stop and frisk or investigatory stops,

but studies all over the country, Kansas City's police study, black people are three times more likely to get pulled over in an investigator, in an investigatory stop and five times more likely to be searched. So, I mean, the list goes on. And then you look at arrest rates for drugs because I've worked a lot in PC on dealing with, you know, the fallout from the war on drugs, biased policing when it comes to drug arrests and sentencing and that sort of things. There's all types of figures that show you that across ethnicities, the same usage of certain drugs and black people are getting arrested

six times over in some cases. I mean, in New York City, black people are arrested at eight times the rate for marijuana and 15 times more in Manhattan. So the usage rates are the same between white and black people, but the arrest rate is way higher. So I don't know how you argue with that. I mean, I obviously don't have a good argument, counter argument, unless you're just going to make things up. I mean, I think also, you know, we're talking about a lot of stop and frisk and actually making the arrest. It's also, I mean, you see a lot of biases and how people decide to enforce laws. And I mean, the Amad Arbery case is an incredible example of that, right? Because everyone knows if the races were reversed,

no prosecutor in America would say, oh, this is just a citizen's arrest now. No one would say that. And no police officer would say that, right? If a black man had hunted down a white guy on a job, that man would be in jail five minutes later, if that. If he survived that arrest, right? But those laws get invoked.

And officers and prosecutors, right? They're not immune from this criticism. and they're a big player in this, they see it through a lens of race. And so they will apply that law. Or self-defense laws are another really important example of this, right? Who gets stand your ground law, which allows you to shoot if someone basically makes you nervous, right? Black people don't get that. There's tons of black women in prisons across this country who have fired back at their abuser, right?

long-standing domestic abuse survivors. And they don't get the benefit of those laws. And white people just do. And so, you know, we really have to think about how do we eradicate a lot of those laws that allow racism to guide who gets arrested and who doesn't for even very serious charge? And, you know, a case that I just thought of, that was one of the more heartbreaking among so many, was the Philando Castile case. To me, this was absurd.

I mean, undeniably absurd. You know, like we see so much, first off, you get stopped. He's given four different conflicting demands from the officer. I mean, how do you keep your hands on the wheel and grab your ID and you're announcing that you are a gun owner? You have a gun. And this is this intersection for me where the Philando Castile case

brings in so many of these issues. One, how many times have you been stopped by police? Okay? I mean, the numbers were crazy. I don't have them offhand, but there, you know, tens and tens of times. He's been stopped for routine stuff, these unnecessary encounters that lead to eventually a tragedy.

And it centers around the fact that he is a gun owner and is very forthright with that. And where was the NRA? Where were these people that were all for, don't tread on me, gun rights and protecting our citizens from tyrannical government actors. And so this is a textbook case that if it were a white person in that car, there would be protests like we saw in Michigan with the same type of folks.

So it can be maddening, but we're here for police brutality. I mean, we could talk about biases and stops and all that sort of thing. And they lead to instances like the George Floyd instance. But the lightning rod has been people dying at the hands of police. So that's the main event. That's what's gotten people into talking about all levels of our criminal justice system and the biases in lesser tragic situations. So number one, can we make the case for police being incredibly violent in the United States?

Yes, we already did it. Those statistics at the top prove that. But the case for them being even more violent in dealing with our black and brown communities is pretty clear, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, I think he rattled off some of the statistics, right? But, I mean, you know, one I think of the most jarring is that black people are three times more likely to be killed when they're in non-threatening situations. I mean, like George Floyd, right? Like Philando Castile.

I mean, that is absolutely astounding. And you just can't take that away. And by the way, I mean, reporting on police use of force and police excessive force is actually really quite. limited. So it's probably, you know, the excessive force when you actually were to bring that it's probably even a lot more astounding the disparities of brutality there. But I think that three-time stat is is really, really telling. And for sure, I mean, you look at the case of George Floyd in that terrible video. I think that why this, this garners so much attention, rightfully so, and allows, you know, allows people to come into the conversation and talk about all the things exhaustively

that we mentioned is because it's so visible. It's so, you got such a visceral reaction, rightfully so, from seeing a man die on camera. And it's very easy to identify. But there's so many things we don't see. I mean, imagine had there not been a camera there, those guys know that they're on cell phone video. These cops at these riots or these protests,

they know they're being filmed and that's how they act. So like, to me, it's, you wonder, it's a tip of the iceberg thing. And, you know, even when control for, talking about unarmed black Americans because so many people point out statistics about well so many had a gun and that sort of thing they're three and a half times higher a chance to die at the hands of police if you're unarmed and black you know then your white counterpart so that that it's a pretty simple discussion there when it comes to that yeah i mean i think you're right that

it's the tip of the iceberg you're right that it's absolutely outrageous but then you know what What is happening in this conversation is you're realizing brutality takes a lot of forms, right? When police lock you up and arrest you and put you in the back of squad car, that's a form of brutality, right? It destroys your life. It destroys your family. It destroys your future. And so when you watch those numbers trickle throughout every aspect of the justice system, when you watch, you know, I don't know if you remember the, in Baltimore, there was the gun force, the gun task force in Baltimore. And they were shaken up people in the streets.

they were robbing money, they were, you know, planting evidence and they eventually got caught on camera. Right, that's its own form of brutality. And that only happens against black people. And that's rarely caught on camera. It's rarely talked about. But black communities know it. People who work in the justice system know it. Prosecutors know it.

They know what their police forces are doing, right? Full of defenders know it. But, you know, most importantly, again, the communities that are impacted by it know it. And it only, it really only impact the black and leather. in this country. And again, it's not to say that, you know, white people don't get killed by police or get beat up by police. If you're sitting there and that, and that's your, that's your reason for not jumping in, I'm going to have a hard time believing that you actually have a problem with police brutality because it's clear as day. And you look at studies like the one in Charleston,

over a 10-year period. This is Charleston, South Carolina. Excessive force complaints, right? There's probably a ton of them because this stuff happens. It's unacceptable. But these complaints happen and they're upheld at seven times the rate for white citizens. So if you're black and you make a complaint about police brutality, which we know happens often in our country, we see it on camera, you know, there's anecdotal evidence, there's there's real data evidence. You don't have a great chance of being heard. And if you're white, more often than not, even the police are going to side with you over the police. So it's just that to me is one that, perfect. illustrates what we're talking about. It'd be one thing if it was just the fact that police

are violent and they at least were faced with consequences, but the accountability part of it is why people are so mad. Yeah. And after a while, you stop making those complaints, right? Why would you make a complaint to a police department if you know nothing's going to happen about it? You know, the more likely situation is you're going to be targeted again because you made that complaint. So there's a real deterrent value in terms of accountability there. I mean, you know, when I was a public offender, we had tons of cases where the police or a prosecutor did shocking things, really, really shocking things. And you would never want to file a complaint or put that out in the world because you're afraid for your client and you're afraid for their safety because retaliation is a real thing. And the police know the police know the guys in the community.

They know the people who are on the corner. So if you complain about violence pause to your community, you might be the next target. And it's very easy to make a staff, right? You just make up a reason. Yeah. You know, a fundamental problem. We're talking about police killings. 99% of them aren't charged after killings.

I mean, you're talking about people that, sure, they are in dangerous situations. I'm not protesting every time somebody dies at the hands of police. There are certainly sometimes where a police officer is forced to make a decision. and their life is on the line. But what we've seen is that most of these are just not like that. And that's what's been exposed. And then on top of it, the accountability is not there. So, you know, it's like Chauvin in Minneapolis. We all know about the multitude of complaints. Even one of the other cops there had six of his own. I think Chauvin had 18. And again, to your point, Jess, I mean, it's a tip of the iceberg thing.

People stopped complaining after a while and out of fear for retribution, out of a sense of hopelessness. I think one of the other officers had to had to settle because he had need and kicked a black man in the face, dislodging some of his teeth and bruising his face. And so anybody who's looking back at that and saying, well, we don't know enough about that situation. I think we know quite enough by seeing these guys act in public when the cameras are on going back, that these were really legit complaints and far too often these guys get off. Talk about police unions because I think that's one thing that's easily identifiable that is allowing cops to escape accountability. Police unions are so powerful in this country.

And what happens in contract negotiations happens behind closed- because it is not sexy. Who cares about police contract negotiations? And that is where all of the sort of not all. That is where a lot of the problems start. So police union contracts protect bad actors, full stop. And they do that in a couple ways. And each one is different. But many will prohibit the investigation of anonymous civilian complaint. So if you are afraid of retribution, that would be one way you might make a complaint. And in some contracts, that's not going to be investigated. Bleas union contracts allow for the expunction of certain complaints and personnel records after a period of time. Now, think about how wild that is.

If you are convicted of a misdemeanor in this country, you may never be able to have that conviction expunged. Arrest records are really hard to get expunged here, even if you were found not guilty or the case has dismissed. And yet, just complaints in this country about people who carry guns and have a bad, and can make arrest get dismissed because of what's happening in police union contract negotiations. They also require a pretty serious arbitration, and there's a lot of limitations on how that arbitration occurs. So in the rare case where a police officer is actually disciplined by the police chief

internally, then we'll go through arbitration. And that results, I think, in like a quarter of the officers getting their jobs back, maybe maybe even higher. It was higher in Minneapolis over a decade. it was 50%. Yeah, it's, I mean, it obviously varies a ton, but it's wild. And Radley Belko, who writes for the Washington Post,

has done people want to do some Googling, has done a lot of good work on this. But, you know, punishments get reduced, and it's why people who have 18 complaints stay on the force. And so, and I want to be clear, like this is not an attack on organized labor. Police unions are really different than labor

in very important ways. And one of those is, But when there are worker strikes in this country, the police are brought out to break up those strikes and disperse workers, right? You don't see that in any other police or in any other union, right? Teachers aren't coming out and going out against the Teamsters, for example. And the Pennsylvania, I think the Pennsylvania First Police Force was actually developed to break up union strikes. So they are fundamentally different than what you see. They're also state government after, right?

we have constitutional provisions that protect you and me from illegal searches and illegal seizures by the police because they are government actors. So it's just when we talk about the power of police unions and the need to reduce them, it is really different than how we talk about organized labor in the rest of this country. And I think that's important because people who are taking money from police unions right now in elections are saying, well, I'm taking it because I believe labor and I believe in the powers of people. And I just think it's a little bit different. But these contracts are so important and they protect against accountability and the

negotiations often happen in the shadows. Although I think you're going to see that about to change in some places. Hopefully. And one thing they can do and I wonder if you support this is the fact that, you know, like I'm just, I'm just looking at this thing and with common sense. And I'm saying, how do police unions get to donate so much money to candidates that are going to ensure that justice is served? And is there any hope that at some point that changes? I mean, there is a huge amount of pressure being placed on, especially elected prosecutors, right?

Because the link between police unions and prosecutors, I think, is pretty clear. Prosecutors holds police officers accountable in courts. So there's been a big push to ask. those people not to take money. You can see it in the L.A. D.A. race right now, for example, which is, you know, L.A. has one of the biggest prison jail systems in America, and it has a lot of police abuse. So Jackie Lacey had taken money. George Gascoen has not. And I think you're going to see this replicate itself over and over again in some of these races. And they have a lot of money. They can really influence elections. And they have for some time.

The California police unions have a ton of money. I just say look no further than the union dude up in Minneapolis or Minnesota. Kroll, I think is his name, who not only in typical police union fashion, circles the wagons, blames the victim, did that with George Floyd, but also has a number of complaints against him. And some of them are very troubling. Not just that. I mean, you look at the dynamic, which illustrates that it's not a simple fix. There's so many forces at work, even if Minneapolis is a city and the mayor are trying to do the right thing, which I don't know if that's the case.

I got to look closer at Bray's track record, but I know that they were trying to ban certain warrior-style tactics, which are taught, quite frankly, watching YouTube and watching these seminars that these guys put on by kind of quacks that, you know, if they're ex-military and they're just bloodthirsty and they kind of, they foster this atmosphere that is looking for conference. confrontation, you know, the way I look at it. And they tried to get rid of that in Minneapolis. And they, I think they were successful, but the union up there said, you know what, fuck it, we'll give it to him for free. And this guy, you can watch him on YouTube. I'll, I'll tack that on at the end of this pod so you can, you can reference it. But is absolutely nuts if you watch this YouTube video. And he's booked almost all year. So the city's trying to change the culture, even when it is, the union swoops in and offers the class for free. And the guy that killed Philando Castile had been at these seminars. And this guy who rolls up to a car

and is so shook by just the traffic stop, his fear turns into violence because he's like, what do I do? I've been trained to kill. I've been, you know, it's just this mindset to me that Not only, you know, I'm digressing a little bit on the culture part of it, but unions, they're like roadblocks to change. Huge. And I don't mean unions. Sorry, I don't mean like, because again, I tweeted something about police unions and left some air between police and unions the other day.

And somebody was like, not all unions are bad. I'm like, okay, you're missing the point. No, they're really, really different. But yeah, I mean, it's a big problem. And again, as we're running through the levels of this thing, we're getting to the criminal justice system. And again, thank you for your time. And we'll wrap it up soon.

but criminal justice system. It's not just a police problem. It's not just a union problem. It's not a brutality problem alone. It's not a bias problem on the ground. It's also what happens in our criminal justice system, which we talk about a lot at PC. Black men are sentenced to harsher sentences.

You know, and I've seen varying figures, 20% higher generally. I mean, it can be higher depending on the state. Yeah, I mean, at every level. right, at, you know, probation length, at parole links, at drug sentences, at murder sentences, at every level, they're much higher. And actually, the statistic that speaks the most to me is that one in five black men who are in prison are serving a life sentence. That's incredible, right? That's so many people who we have said, you are going to die in prison. You know, and so the length these

sentences are really, I think, applied exclusively, not exclusively, but disproportionately to black men in the country. Yeah, and seeking mandatory minimums, the percentages with which folks are seeking these minimums for black folks, it's off the charts compared to white counterparts. So, I mean, at every level, it's, you know, the arrest rates are disproportionate and the sentencing is disproportionate. So like at each level. I mean, mandatory minimums were designed that way, right? That was. You know, the arrest rates are disproportionate. I the specific purpose of the crack cocaine, powder cocaine disparity that Congress put into effect, right? We knew who used cocaine and we knew who used crack. And so we punished one with a much higher

mandatory minimum. We're just starting to unravel that and not entirely. So, you know, it's by design. It's, I think as some people say, it's totally baked into the system. And again, black people 12, 12 times more likely to get falsely convicted of a drug crime, five times more likely to go to prison for drug possession. We mentioned all the disparities in arrest rate, but then what happens after that? It's very clear to me that this is a systemic problem. Again, and even the juries, the people that try, you know, the folks that are asking for a harder look here, there's problems there. And Batson v. Kentucky and 86 deal and that we actually had to confront the way we put our juries together, but I've read anecdotally that jurors have been removed for things like going to an

HBCU. It's insane to me that you're really going to infiltrate that arm of the justice system, which is supposed to be totally objective with disproportionate amount of white people intentionally. Yeah, I mean, you know, in Batson, right, which is a case that says it's unconstitutional to strike people of color or strike anybody on the basis of race. I mean, you're not. supposed to strike white people on the basis of raised any either. But, you know, we know it most often happens to black people. That case has been toothless because all a prosecutor has to do is make up a reason for their strike. And it's fine. So I've seen cases where a prosecutor says he looked at me funny. And that is enough to what's called a Batson challenge. Right? I mean,

oh, the person says he's had a few too many encounters with law enforcement. Well, if that's going to be an excuse to remove someone from a jury, then you're going to automatically not have a lot of black men on your jury because most black men will tell you they're distressful of the police. The case doesn't even provide a ton of protection. But, you know, prosecutors use their strikes that way. Judges allow it to happen. And on we go. So we've hit, you know, a few levels here for people. And I again, this is not for anybody listening. It's not like a hey, asshole, you're wrong. It's like if you're not sure, hopefully these. you know, these statistics and these anecdotes really help you realize that there is a problem. And again, they're peer reviewed. I mean, these aren't, I didn't pull these out of my ass. I know I wasn't the best student, but I can, I can read. And, you know, now we have to look to solutions and attacking a lot of these problems are the solutions. Obviously, the conversations

we mentioned is important. But if you're in, you know, if you're talking to white listeners out there who are just waking up to this. And again, I want to highlight that if you are ignorant to this stuff because you didn't live around it, that's one thing. That makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, for you, you were raised to think the police are always awesome and they've done nothing but serve and protect you. It's very different for your black counterparts in this country.

What can we do to try to chip away at this once the protests subside? And now we have the floor. People are presumably listening. What can we do? I mean, I think this is the good news. news like so much because your local elected officials have so much power and your vote really matters in those races. I mean, you know, people often think like, oh, if I don't vote, it doesn't matter. But Virginia had a race a couple years ago that came down to, I think,

one vote. So it does really, really matter and how you engage during these elections matter. So, you know, we have to really think in the active voice about who has power. Your mayor in a lot of places has power over the police budget, who is the police chief, right? The New York City mayor has so much power. The Philadelphia mayor has so much power. The L.A. mayor has so much power over these people. So are you calling your mayor? Are you making demands?

What are your demands going to be? Are you showing up where your mayor is? Look, people, it's a lot of elect officials don't get public pressure and you can be part of that public pressure. And then, of course, who do you support in those elections? You know, most people don't know who their city council member is or who their county commissioner is. But in a lot of places, they're controlling the budget. And so are you showing up to testify at those hearings and saying, I want the money in schools because 22% of kids in the public school, the only 22% are proficient in math.

And I think that's where the money should go instead of in policing budgets. You know, you can show up at those meetings and you will really be able to crowd the room. and that will be unusual because those rooms are normally empty. Who is your prosecutor, right? There are a ton of prosecutor elections coming up in this country. And, you know, obviously full disclosure, I work on a lot of them. But that matters, right? There are a new crop of prosecutors who are actually prosecuting these cases

and holding officers accountable. And we saw that that was a big problem in Minneapolis. I mean, Amy Klobuchar, who ran for president, was the prosecutor in Hennepin County for a long time. and her track record of police accountability was abysmal. So who you elect in those races is so important, and they're happening in major cities like all over Florida, for example, right now.

In Atlanta, this week. So there's a lot of your vote really matters, frankly, your money matters in those races, and what you demand of people in those races really matters a lot. So I think for people should really dig into their local communities because voting for president is so important, please vote, right? This race is so important. But we can't forget that everything, so much of the criminal justice system and policing

is local. And that's where those solutions are going to come in. Well, that's a great point. I mean, certainly the president with all the chaos and the shit show that's ensued, has given a lot of people cover on local levels because we're all, you know, we're feigning to get to the polls in November and do this thing. But that's not going to do it alone as just outlined. And so holding people accountable at a local level, educating yourselves.

I'm continuing to educate myself. And I've been at least involved in this stuff for a couple of years on at least a fringe level. There's always more reading to do. There's always more conversations we had. But action is what we need. And it starts with you. So I really appreciate you guys listening. Every time I talk to Jess, I learn a lot.

So this was great. This was very clutch. I appreciate the time. Back at you. Thanks for all the work you do. So that was Jess Brand. Again, previously Public Defender, knows a lot about this stuff,

been in the trenches. Wren Collective, it's a social justice advocacy group. She continues to make a difference. And I think, I'm sure when she wakes up at the morning, she's got a lot of battles to fight. Being on a podcast is not always one of them,

but the educational aspect of this thing is huge. So a lot of what she talked about there should be eye-opening. And, you know, you could say, I doubt the source until you turn blue in the face, but at some point, it's undeniable that there's enough smoke here. And there is a fire. So let's put it out.

Mailbag, little sports. Clemente Tequila, very loyal follower, always a lot of good questions. Shows up in the mailbag a lot. He asked me two questions. During my career, who are the three hardest hits that I've taken from any players, who are the players that hit me the hardest, and then who was the best of the best? defensive coordinator I played for and why? Jeremy Zuda hit me the hardest.

Jeremy Zuda was a guard from Rutgers. I actually put this on Instagram recently. I think my soul left my body. I was pursuing a, it had to be 2014, one of my last years with the Rams. I was pursuing a reverse. I didn't have force. I was running the sideline. Secondary contain.

A lot of times, a defense vends job, fans are always like when they see a perimeter run or they see, you know, a jet sweep or reverse. they're like oh where was the d end on contain well defensive ends um are are not force guys on reverse on reverses uh depending on the system certainly not in systems that i played in so what you do is you end up running like like a wild dog uh you know after a car um on the highway and there's bodies everywhere it's hard to keep your head on a swivel you're waiting on the force guy to come down whether it's a corner of safety and just set that edge just make it so i don't have to run with no visibility for 20 yards and get blown up. And that's exactly what happened. Jeremy hit me in the

back of my head, hit the ground first. I was very proud that I popped up. I didn't feel anything. Sometimes the hardest hits you take, they don't hurt. What hurts the most are the chips. Like, you know, and we got a lot of chips in St. Louis between me and Rob Quinn, you know, you would be fully engaged with a tackle, maybe a long arm, your ribs are exposed, your stomach's exposed, and a 225-pound running back, kind of takes a gather start and just unloads into your side. And, you know, I've had bruised ribs as a result of that. Brose-ribes suck. I've had crack ribs.

I've had freak things like tackling Adrian Peterson by the ankle and landing on the back of his cleat and fracturing your sternum. I mean, that one was painful. Yeah, it's always, when you're watching at home, it's never the plays you think. who is the best defense coordinator you played for and why bill belichick i mean bill's the guy who runs the show there i know that you know mattie p was the de-coordinator but i i have a reason to believe that bill is calling a lot of the shots so if you count bill belichick uh i'm going to say bill belichick is is the best de coordinator i played for the best defensive mine i played for

he got that team two years ago to win a super bowl with that defense that a year prior and a lot of the same faces got absolutely run over, and we knew they would against my Philadelphia Eagles. You know, and we were a good defense the year we won the Super Bowl in New England, but we weren't that great, and we were number one in the league in scoring defense. I mean, we were giving up about 15 points a game. A few plays here or there, and statistically, you could look at that and be like, oh, that's a historically good defense. We were not historically good or historically counted.

it. But the next year, there was a dip. That defense became a problem. And within a year to turn a defense that got run up and down the field by Nick Foles into a unit that could go on that run in the playoffs, especially culminating in that Super Bowl. And, you know, I know that Jared Gough, you know, there's questions around him and the usage of Todd Gurley, but that was a very good offense. And to hold anybody to that point total in the Super Bowl is crazy. and they did it with not a ton of talent. I think one of the big things was Stefan Gilmore and what he allowed them to do and transform them in a way, but also just the game planning was crazy. I mean, that was an amazing game plan. And, you know, Bill, that's Bill. Now, my favorite decorinator was probably Greg Williams,

motivation factor. That guy would get you to run through a wall. And he was somebody that no matter how much he gave it to, he could take it, he could take it. You could dish it, dish it out and also take it and have fun with his players, but also instill fear in them. I never had so much fun as playing with that group that we had in St. Louis. And, you know, things didn't line up because of Greg's suspension and because of some of our players, myself included getting injured and shipped out of town.

If we'd have had that group with a decent offense and Greg as our coordinator, I think we would have been pretty damn relevant. And a lot of people would have remembered that defense because we played Hall. We played violent and we played physical and a lot of that I owed to to Greg Williams and his motivation and just the way he The way he gave you permission to go out and fly around I mean it was just like you just felt like this is what we do we fly around We just fly around And of course, you know I know some of y'all are chuckling I never got paid to do anything Greg never offered anything that that shit is so blunt out of proportion

plan C podcast asked me what's your advice for a new podcaster i keep hearing consistency also trust yourself and i say that on a day where we put out a pod late in the afternoon but uh we're we're customarily doing it on monday morning so i'm not being consistent or practicing what i'm preaching but be true to yourself i had a conversation with will Compton at Bustin with the Boys. He had me on their podcast and he jokingly asked if we're competition. I said, no, because I really believe if you're true to yourself, but then you change who you are, because a podcast is kind of who you are, in my opinion. You can certainly work at it to make it, you know, really compelling factually and do a lot of research and have good

takes, but a podcast and every dude in America has one right now. So separating yourself could be a little bit like pissing in the wind. But a podcast is kind of reflection of who you are if you're doing it right. So if you're being true to yourself and your numbers aren't what they need to be or what you want them to be, you have to consider like, do I really want to scrap being myself to change and adhere to what the competition is doing so that I can sell more? You're kind of compromising. So I would just say consistency, stay at it. And if you're good enough, you'll have success. Now distribution,

that sort of thing is it's not easy. Like, it's easy for me. I retire and I have a podcast and I turn the switch on and it, it's great. And you might be looking up at me like, you know, at playing C podcast or whoever else has a podcast and saying,

well, you're very lucky. And I agree. These are really real hurdles for some podcasters. But I also look up at some other people and I say that. Like if you work for a barstool or a ringer or, you know, one of these established distribution platforms,

you know, you're going to roll the ball out there and have some listeners because you can draw ears and eyes to your stuff very easily. So I certainly can't relate to just starting from nothing. But when it comes to athletes, like I've done this the bootstrap way. I'm not expecting you to feel sorry for me. But it's, it's, there's, there's levels of, uh, of ease, uh, when it comes to getting your message out and getting your voice out. And, um, I would just say be, be consistent. be yourself. John Delaney asked favorite non-athlete

celebrity friends. I'm going to go with DJ Premier and Patrick Callahan. These are musicians. It's a great chance to name drop. We could just keep going. But Primo is a good dude, legendary producer,

had him on the fishbowl, talked to him one-on-one at length, but also just a supporter of my charitable endeavors. The way we got hooked up was he liked water boys and kind of hit me up and came down to some, some games and has been to literally came down from New York just for a,

a waterboys event in Philly. It's like amazing, dude. We barely knew each other. And so to show that support, I really think Primo is one of the most down to earth, humble people that's at the top of his profession, very inquisitive, motivated, and loves everybody. He's just a person that, you know,

he doesn't take shit from anybody, but he has a lot of love for people. And I think it's a great way to live. And Patrick Hallahan, you know, one of the key forces in one of my all-time favorite bands in my morning jacket,

a hell of a drummer. And drummer is always, they're kind of like the unsung heroes to me. And, you know, when I took my dad to some MMJ shows, first thing he said was, look at that dude how hard he works back there. He just busts his ass back there,

wailing on the drums. And, you know, some of my favorite songs. He's, he's very central when it comes to the sound. And not to mention, getting a chance to meet those guys, they're all awesome dudes. But Pat and I kind of hit it off, and I talk to Pat with some regularity, just a really good soul and somebody that cares about people. And a great family man and a very interesting dude, too. There's a lot more to him than music. And there's always a lot to talk about. So, Primo,

Pat Hallahan, and also fans of each other. Primo likes MMJ. Pat, obviously, when he found out I was friends with Primo, was freaking out. So shout out to those guys. Somebody asked mayonnaise or butter when making a grilled cheese. Maneers with nothing. Fuck mayonnaise. Unequivocally, fuck mayonnaise.

Unless it's like tuna salad. Then I can't see it and it's not like mayonnaise consistency. I know people tell me there's mayonnaise and tuna salad. If I can't see it, it's not going to bother me as much. I know that might not make sense. to you guys, but fuck mayonnaise. KL. Photos asks, would love to hear stories about the toughest O-Line men you ever went up against

and how they were nasty to play against. Yeah, there's one guy for me, Brenno Jocomini, he's a guy that not a lot of you guys might know. He was not a journeyman in the NFL. He started for a number of years, but not a guy that was a household name. He was a typical right tackle in the older sense of the term right tackle being the physical run blocker who doesn't take shit from anybody

you know that's why left ends are tougher than right ends i'll just say that uh uh breno knew his limitations and leaned into his strengths and his strengths were vice grips he would just hang on you he would hold he would hit you late he would finish piles you would drive you over the pile when you shed a block in the NFL a lot of the NFL a lot of of guys just take their hands off guys and put their head in the in the gap you know just just you know you make a you make a shedding motion and you put your body in the gap but just being in the gap doesn't mean that tackle went away and breno never did so a lot of times you'd be like okay i'm in the sea gap i'm waiting for marshawn lynch oh no i'm getting driven over a pile because breno

doesn't quit he's very tough yeah did i wear him out sometimes absolutely he wasn't the best past blocker in the world, but I always respected him. I think he respected me. And we enjoyed the battles. And yeah, he embodied the Tom Cable thing. Let's just say that. And finally, O'Hara Kell asks favorite highway men tune. You know, I'll rank them one day.

I think we can make a whole segment out of that. I don't know how many podcast listeners really in my era enjoy Whalen, Willie. Chris and Johnny, but I guess the best verse on the song Highway Men is Johnny's verse. I fly a starship. That's the best verse on that particular song. As far as Highway Men collaborations, I actually like their individual stuff much more than the stuff they collaborated on, but it was still fun to see them work together at different junctures. My favorite album, of any of those four guys' albums was live at Folsom Prison. Just for the simple fact that you have to imagine the time and the place,

Johnny Cash going into a prison among men who are forgotten by society, some really bad guys, some guys that might have been in there for no reason, guys that might have been over sentenced. It's like just run the gambit of the downtrodden and in some cases, irredeemable of society. And to do a show in front of all those guys, man, that's crazy. If they had to do, you know, a Folsom Prison reboot,

I'm taking Chris Stapledon. I think he would be tremendous when it comes to something like that. Now, you have to, like some of those songs, like Greystone Chapel, and you can hear it on the, on the album, I think the guy's name was Glenn Shirley, brought him that song the night before. He's an inmate. So you've got a legend, a music legend, singing a song that he learned the night before from an inmate in a prison. Some of the most soulful stuff that he did was right there in that prison. And actually my favorite Johnny Cash song might be girl from the North Country, which is him and Bob Dylan, strangely enough. Now, my son's name is Waylon. I do love pretty much all of Waylon's music. But I don't know if he's my favorite highway man when it comes to music.

I mean, and the second part of this question was his favorite Highwayman tune, and you'd have to quarantine with one of them and who would. it be. I would say Willie Nelson. I know there's going to be a lot of weed jokes here. That's certainly relevant, but I have my own weed. It's funny. It's like people are like, you know, well, me and Willie

probably both smoke some pretty good shit. So I just think Willie seems cool. I've enjoyed Willie's stances on things. If I had to go to a big party that I was like going to rage till 4 a.m. And we had a limo and we were just tearing up a

city, it's going to be Whalen. If I had to drink at a dive bar, it's going to be Chris. And obviously, I'm going to smoke with Willie. I don't know what I'm doing with Johnny. Johnny was a... Johnny had a real dark side. And he seemed like a great dude, but I don't know if I'd want to party with Johnny out of all those guys.

I could be wrong. He could have been a lot of fun to party with. Yeah, when it comes to Whalen, I'd say freedom to stay. If you know that tune, that's the... the song me and my wife dance to at our wedding my lovely wife meg um and probably willie the wandering gypsy and me which uh which is a classic uh and then for chris it's silver tongue devil and sunday morning coming down anyways that is uh that's a brain dump there for you um a little bit of everything today again we got bruce arians on wednesday and that should be

fun. There will be some football. There will be some tough, substantive conversations had, but I look forward to talking a little bit of sports on Wednesday. Thanks for, thanks for listening, and we'll catch you then.