Green Light with Chris Long - Ryan McGee on NASCAR Banning the Confederate Flag and College Football.

Episode Date: June 12, 2020

0:49 - Open. 25:42 - Ryan McGee on Southern Heritage, NASCAR and College Football. 1:13:11 - College Football Talk. Ryan's Original ESPN Article: https://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/story/_/id/29294475/the-confederate-flag-gone-nascar-races-miss-second Make sure you check out Ryan McGee's new book: Sidelines and Bloodlines: A Father, His Sons, and Our Life is College Football. Available for for pre-sale now and releasing September 15, 2020 https://amzn.to/37mIU7I Green Light with Chris Long: Subscribe and enjoy weekly content including podcasts, documentaries, live chats, celebrity interviews and more including hot news items, trending discussions from the NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, NCAA are just a small part of what we will be sharing with you. 🌍🏀🏈SUBSCRIBE NOW ⚾🏒⛰️ http://bit.ly/chalknetwork Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm down on North Carolina coast, and I may or may not have a jar of moonshine in that house right there from the side of the truck. Amen. I had a bowl of grits for breakfast this morning. You know, I was listening to Johnny Cash while I had that bowl of grits. There are so many ways for me to let you know that I'm Southern that don't automatically offend millions and millions and millions of people. Another week in the books, I want to give a quick shout out to all. Allbirds. We were supposed to start running Allbirds ads starting two weeks ago, but they recognized the moment, and instead of selling shoes, they said this. Normally, this sponsored Reed would

focus on what Allbirds does as a business and talk about one of our newest products, but there's something much more important happening in our country and around the world right now. Acknowledging injustice is not the kind thing to do. It's the right thing to do. As a business, all birds has always stood for the planet, and standing for the planet also means standing for its people. We believe that everyone should be able to enjoy all the Earth has to offer without fearing for their lives because of the color of their skin. And while we admit that we're not entirely sure what the right thing to do is at a time like this, we know that just stating our support isn't enough. We need to take action.

As a first step, Allbirds has contributed to organizations like the National Movement for Black Lives and the NAACP Legal Defense Fund to support their efforts. We encourage you to demand change and make your voices heard. Black Lives Matter. Happy Friday. Happy Friday afternoon to y'all. This is the NASCAR pod. Every week, I feel like we have a NASCAR pod around here at Greenlight Podcast. I'm your host, Chris Long.

And we've got Ryan McGee on today. One of the single most impressive people that I've encountered in 2020. And I'll tell you why. He's a senior writer for ESPN, writes for NASCAR, writes about college football. He has a show called Marty and McGee. Obviously, Marty Smith is the other half there. And he's written books about NASCAR and college football, travels around the country every Saturday, kind of like a game day thing for him.

And he actually wrote an article about me back in college. I found that out today as we were trying to book him. But the reason also he was at the UVA UMBC game, the infamous 16-1 upset that ruined my St. Patrick's Day and probably the entire year as a sports fan circa 2018, 2017. I'll ask him about that. But the reason I was clamoring to get him on the show was because he dropped a bomb on ESPN. This is one of the most righteous articles I have read in a long time. especially considering the context. And I hate throwing the word righteous around.

Listen, my man laid it out for people. This is a guy whose livelihood is writing about NASCAR, essentially, and was elated that NASCAR made the move they made this week. Everybody knows what they've done. They have said no more stars and bars at our races, and this cat was hyped. And he wasn't just hyped. it felt like he was relieved.

It felt like he was, he had felt the burden of seeing these flags for a long time, working NASCAR. And he described why. He described his lineage, you know, his family history and relatives that fought for the Confederacy. He described,

you know, the house he grew up in was, was essentially a plantation, talked about that and basically cleared some, some things up for NASCAR fans. that might be reading that article about the meaning of that flag. And I'll let him tell you more about it, but the powerful piece,

considering the context of the sport that he writes in and about, and the way he wrote about it, he didn't just say, hey, this was the right move, we need unity, this fucking guy dunked on people that fetishize that flag. So I can't wait to have them on. Righteous dude.

Shout out to Ryan McGee. Can't wait. But let me tell you how I feel about the whole NASCAR thing. Okay. I think we got to feel like it's a positive. I know that this is a low bar, but we do. And I'll tell you why. First league to actually do this, but probably the only league that has ever had to take this specific measure.

I mean, you don't even see these flags waving around in the deep south at college football. games. NASCAR is the only league to have to make this measure to codify this. I mean, this is, it's absurd, but they deserve credit. And they deserve credit because they're a business. And a business to me cares first and foremost about the bottom line. And the only way to tell if a business really cares about a cause, and that's a relative term when you're corporation caring about a cause, but the only way to know is if a business is willing to take a hit. And NASCAR has risked their wallet. Now, I don't know how much they sell in merchandise.

I don't know how much they sell in tickets. I don't know how much they sell in, you know, tailgate passes. So you can pull up your Dodge Coachman and fly a traitorous flag above your web or grill as you enjoy some suds and get ready to go watch some race cars. I don't know how much money they make doing that shit. I do know, though, that they probably make a lot of money in TV. Now, we'll see how that goes. I haven't dove into that.

I'll probably ask Ryan McGee about that. The only way you can tell that a corporation cares is by what they risk in their wallet. And this was a risk for them. So this to me actually is contextually more impressive than what any other league has done. They did something that could alienate. I would venture to guess 50% of their customers at least. And if somebody wants to dispel that hypothesis, please, by all means. But angry people speak the loudest.

I do see a lot of angry people on Twitter. And I wouldn't imagine that Twitter is common. gathering place for people who love that flag. So I think we're just seeing the tip of the iceberg on Twitter.com. I don't think the Twitter, I think that flag is more of a Facebook crowd. But that's the only way to know. Does a corporation care about the bottom dollar, the bottom line, and they've taken a risk? I'm personally going to reinforce this move by buying one of those ugly ass M&M jackets,

you know, those like kind of button down racing jackets that aren't great looking, but some people have made it cool. I'm going to join the NASCAR jacket crowd. I'm going to go buy some merch. But when you consider that just a couple months ago, you had a driver, and what feels like years ago was at the beginning of the pandemic, but you had a driver, say, the N-word on a Twitch stream.

I mean, by the way, Kyle Larson, who's the guy, I found this out today, half Japanese, rose through the ranks through a diversity program in NASCAR, short track driver, whatever that means. You'd think he would have a little bit more consciousness, but he spoke that word like he's used to speak in that word. You know what I mean? Now, Bubba Wallace deserves a ton of credit.

Fun fact about Bubba Wallace is that I was yesterday old when I realized that Bubba Wallace was black. I never knew that because I don't really know too many drivers other than like Dale Jr. I don't even know what they look like. But Bubba Wallace is black. And for a full day, I was like, damn, that white guy really just did that. Black Lives Matter drawing on his car.

Pretty impressive for a white guy. But when I found out that Bubba Wallace was black, I was like, holy shit, this guy is risking his safety. Talk about a statement. And some of you guys are going to laugh at me and shame me for not knowing what Bubba Wallace looks like. And I'm pretty sure 50% of you will have never watched NASCAR or knew what NASCAR was until this week. I love this guy. Holy shit, the stones on this guy.

Shout out to him. And shout out to all the drivers who have spoken up. It's really cool. Because this is risk. I mean, you see a lot of white people arriving to the party this week. And there's been a lot of talk about how to welcome folks that didn't realize that racism existed on a scale that it does in our country, that systemic racism exists in policing and the criminal justice system. We've had a lot of white people that are just arriving to the party, and that's great. And they're speaking out.

But let's just make something abundantly clear right now. Speaking out against racism is it's the right thing. And it's also something that if you do it right now, you have company. You're not alone. In that world, this is bold to speak out against something like that flag. And I think any driver that's posted, I've seen a number of them post using the hashtag Black Lives Matter. That ain't like those Hollywood folks getting together and do a gray scale, dramatic video pledging to end racism. them. This is something where these guys are going to go to work and they're going to feel the

eyes on them, especially a bubble Wallace. And I protect this man at all costs, as people say on the internet. What a fucking legend. And he made that black and white clip art handshake that Drew Breeze used look really cool on a car. Didn't look as cool on Drew's Instagram. Looked very cool and very powerful. Most powerful uses of clip art I've ever seen. Shout out to Bubba Wallace. Easily my favorite NASCAR car driver of cars. And I've actually been to a NASCAR race. I've been to one in Martinsville, Virginia, Southern Virginia. And it made me uncomfortable. I'm not going to lie. I had a good time with my friends.

But when I tell you, there aren't just one or two flags, there are a lot of flags. Like the ratio of American flags to Confederate flags is like a one-to-one thing. You know, if you've ever been to a NASCAR race, you know that's true. And I haven't been back. You know, one of those things where I could run around ripping down every Confederate flag. it was like not one of those things where if a dude rolls up in a crowd waving a flag proudly you're like I'm going to rip his flag down or some shit like that like there were enough people that you weren't getting out of there so I just watched the race and left the next day we camped

in the infield and I got to say like it sucks it just sucks because it is a cool ass sport like these drivers are unbelievable and it takes away from what they do Because as NASCAR realizes and it's high time to realize, you are alienating a lot of fans by allowing those flags to fly in abundance and high at your races. Now, another thing I noticed there, I got to walk the infield and stuff. I got to meet a lot of pit crew guys. There were pit crew guys that I played against in college. A lot of college football players are pit crew guys in NASCAR, and a lot of them are black. And I wondered at the time how they felt about things.

Obviously, not a question you ask because cars are whizzing by at like 200 miles an hour. But it stuck in my head. I was like, how do they feel coming to work every day? It just sucks because I know they love what they're doing. And I wouldn't imagine that, you know, I'm not going to generalize and say that all these drivers are racist. The guys they work with are racist. But when you look out in the crowd, that flag was just, uncomfortable as much as it was featured in Martinsville. And I think it's a big deal what just

happened, but I have reservations, not in the action. The action is necessary, but the results. Number one, I got three reservations. Number one, the Mississippi flag, which is basically a cheat code for racist right now, will be the most popular flag, state flag in America. It's going to be the biggest riser. If flags had jersey sales, this is the Lamar Jackson of jerseys in the last year. That's what it's

going to be for NASCAR fans. They're going to be, oh, got to get on flag.com and get your Mississippi flag where you still can't. Because if you haven't seen a Mississippi flag, there's a Confederate flag that they just were like, oh, if we just put it in this flag and make it smaller and surround it with some colors, there it is.

It's like a cheat code. Second problem. I think that down the line, eventually this rule yields more diverse fandom in NASCAR. Again, I think it's a really cool sport. This is going to be a tough time for minorities to dip their toes in the water when it comes to like, hey, well, the flags are gone. Let's head on down to Talladega. Don't think it's going to work that way. The symbolism is now gone, but you can't remember.

move the people that brought the flags in for years. I doubt that, you know, even if buddy who's been to 100 races and brought a Confederate flag 100 times can't bring that flag anymore, he's still there, and now he's mad. And I think it's going to be a tough time for minorities or anybody who would support this ban to dip their toes in the water and go to a race. I think it could get ugly. I think the beehive's been nudged, but it needed to be nudged. And you'd better believe grown white guys who aren't in the least bit oppressed who make that flag, their like rebel battle cry will oppose this quote unquote PC culture shit. They're going to bring flags in. There's going to be dudes sticking flags up their ass like drugs

through LaGuardia. Like you're going to have to cavity search dudes. Two of a dude is just waddling through the gates at Daytona. Just waddling. You don't need to search people. There's going to be people like strapping flags to their chest and then like taking their shirts off. It's going to be a shit show the first couple years. But I'm hoping that eventually it is a place that can yield more a more diverse fandom because I think it'd be really cool. And I think at least if guys aren't going to NASCAR races as an immediate result, I'm going to reinforce this thing possibly. I'm going to buy some merch. I'm going to watch more NASCAR. I'm going to talk about more NASCAR. The race, give me a few years. The sport? I'll get into it. Now, the third

problem is the tattoo loophole. I've seen a number of dudes around here in Virginia and all over the country with tattoo loopholes on this thing. I don't think that's going to be hard to enforce that. I feel like they're too far gone anyways. And I wonder if there's going to be. going to be a big uptick of tattoos. I talked about, you know, that Confederate, the Mississippi flag, rather, the loophole is going to be the biggest riser in flag sales over the next year. There's going to be a lot of people strolling into tattoo shops trying to get tattoos. And by the way, all Confederate tattoos look like they were done in the backyard. So maybe a lot of those tattoos are going to be done in, in backyards.

And it's not going to be something that tattoo art. I'll have to ask a tattoo artist how he's going to handle that or she's going to handle that. in the next year. I don't know if maybe some of these tattoo artists are like, I just won't tattoo that. You know, when I was a kid, I saw the flag everywhere in Virginia.

I mean, not like in Charlottesville where I live with regularity like in the city, although there's that big ass statue. But much like NASCAR fans, I never fucking noticed it. But now they're all up in arms that they're going away. Me? Not so much.

I saw the flag a lot. especially when you Virginia's not deep south, but when you leave town you'll see the flag. You'll see it on people's trucks passing through. You'll see people riding out with their pickups and they've got multiple

kind of like those smaller flags on the back of their truck or they have a bumper sticker on the back or if they're big pussies about it, they'll be like Heritage's not hate. Just tell me you're a racist dude. You can just tell me that.

And listen, maybe this whole thing's a wake-up call for some people that just have no idea what that flag means. Maybe some younger people who are being raised in households that are like, it is heritage, not hate. Hopefully, if there's anybody with an honest bone in their body that sports that thing on the rag, this thing will wake them up. But in Virginia, you do see it. I saw it a lot on T-shirts and belt buckles. And I think for some kids, they did not get it. But eventually you turn 12 and you learn history and you move on. It's just way more normal than I think a lot of people realize that live up north.

And it's normal like up north in some places too. I've seen like somebody post a picture in Colorado with some guy with a Confederate flag and a Colorado license plate. Is he from out of town or is he just like, hey, everybody, like, pay attention to the fact that I am a fucking racist. I don't know. I mean, like Kid Rock. He's from like Michigan.

He's always doing that Confederate flag shit. So, you know, we're going to have McGee on. McGee's breakdown. That's again, that's Ryan McGee. NASCAR, senior writer. My favorite part about his breakdown, because he's been all over the place in just 24 hours, I mean, by now,

I'll try to get something out of him that you haven't heard on first take or something else, but the article was that good. He's been everywhere. And he's been speaking slowly to people. He basically mentions a key point here, which is that, I mean, you shouldn't even have to make this point, but after the traitorous confederacy,

lost the war. If that flag had any honor left, it got co-signed by murderous clan gatherings, illuminated by burning crosses. It's synonymous with the bombing of black churches. The list goes on. It's synonymous with terror. And this is why someone like Nikki Haley is so full of shit. If you remember her monologue, that whole Dylan Roof hijacked the flag. You know, before Dylan Roof, it was just this peaceful heritage. Like, fuck out of here. intellectually dishonest puppet. Shannon Sharp posted this day. Shannon Sharp just,

he's unrelenting. I love him. William T. Thompson, who created the Confederate flag, and this was shared again by Shannon, quote, as people we are fighting to maintain the heaven ordained supremacy

of the white man over the inferior or colored race. A white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Upon a red field would stand forth are Southern Cross, jammed, preserving and beautiful contrast, the red, white, and blue.

That's, I guess, give some context of, you know, what that flag's about. So this isn't some First Amendment shit. Like, nobody's sending you to jail for wrapping yourself in that dumb flag. You know, I've seen people posting pictures defiantly under the NASCAR post with the flag.

Like, you've tweeted your, dumb stock photo of the Confederate flag. Your account's going to be here in the morning, I think. Nobody's going to haul you off to jail. And by the way, these comments are so bad. You can't tell who's trolling. You really can't. I saw a couple that were like, holy shit. And then I rose it was a really good joke. And then like I saw the opposite as well. I was like, that guy's funny, but he laid it on a little too thick. And then you're like, click on the the profile and it's pretty evident that it's a serious reaction. I think I got like Hep C just reading these comments.

But it's not just the comments. A driver has left the building. Ray Cicorelli, I think that's how you say his last name, Cicorelli. NASCAR truck series. He has said, I'm out. He has seceded from NASCAR.

car unironically uh elliot city maryland is where he's from and that's way down in the panhandle if you look it on a map it's basically in florida it's basically birmingham elliott city maryland um listen if you can find a wah-wa in your home state you can't really even do the southern pride thing let alone argue for this shitty flag which is quite the argument um but ray is out ray can't stand it, not standing for it. And I support his method of peaceful protest. I am all about if it enraged you that NASCAR does not allow that flag at a race, riding your little hot rod or your pickup truck, and just go west, my man, just ride into the sunset. I might start watching NASCAR truck series now. I might support NASCAR truck series.

his Wikipedia has been updated by the way go check that one out NASCAR holler at your boy I like driving pickup trucks also a great sequence on Twitter today Beam designs who makes helmets for NASCAR racers they were talking shit to people about NASCAR's decision they were going back and forth with people towing that this is soft line

and people were coming at them and they were saying yeah check back next week when we'll have Jimmy Johnson's brand new helmet blah blah blah very quickly did Jimmy Johnson drop a bomb on beam designs due to recent tweets I have decided to end my relationship with beam designs ah this is uh that's that's that's that's a thing of beauty life comes at you fast I think was the tweet that frame that sequence for me um so yeah NASCAR nice work and you're never going to stop some people for flying them at their homes listen, I've driven by a bunch of those flags on people's front porches.

I actually think it's great. I think it's kind of like when you walk into a hotel room with a black light. It's good to know where the trouble spots are on the bed and around the room and on that couch in the hotel that's only there for one thing. You've got to be careful in hotels. But it's good to know that NASCAR can now consider having an abundance of black fans at their sport one day. Not soon, I don't think, but someday.

And I think that's exciting because it is an exciting sport and more sports are good. Now, if we're lucky, maybe we'll follow through on making the KKK a domestic terrorist organization. I will not hold my breath. I do have Ryan McGee joining me now. So I told you I got the man of the hour here, Ryan McGee. And he has had a busy 48 hours. Right, how are you doing, man? I'm tired, Chris Long.

But tired in all the best ways. You know, I'm literally sitting in my truck because my family owns the world's smallest beach house on the coast of North Carolina. And my wife and daughter are asleep upstairs. And I'm like, you know what? I can zoom this up in the truck as long as the Wi-Fi will get there. But yeah, but it's been great. I mean, it's, but I've never, I mean, I've been with ESPN most of my adult life. And, you know, you bust your butt on everything you do.

I mean, just like you always have. And you just hope that it connects with someone. You know, I've worked on so many pieces that I loved over the years and then sat there and waited for the reaction and there's nothing. And for this one, it hurt writing it. It was also cathartic writing it. And I meant every single word. And you just hope that it on someone's radar, just anyone.

And the reaction to it has been stronger than anything I could have imagined. And it's been encouraging to react. That's the part that I'm happy about. Well, you know what I think is great. It's not just, you know, the article hearing people speak out, whether it's a driver like Bubba, who actually, this is how little I know about NASCAR. When I first saw Bubba Wallace speak out,

I was like, man, a white guy in NASCAR, that's guys got some balls. And then I saw a picture and I was like, oh, Bubba Watson's black. Okay. Yeah, okay. He's got even more balls than I thought because I think that, you know, if you're, A, writing an article that's scathing when it comes to a flag that's so heavily represented, represented, you know, at races or B, you're a driver, you're, of all the

sports leagues, you're taking the most risk, I feel. Do you think that's accurate, or do you think that I'm looking at it wrong? No, no, you're not looking at it wrong, and I think that, you know, it's that whole heritage, not hate thing, and there's people that, they, they have great pride when they fly, they just don't understand what it is that they're doing. A lot of them do. I think most of them do. And so, yeah, you're under, you are, NASCAR has been criticized a lot and fairly over the last 20 years for abandoning in its roots.

You know, you're talking to a guy that was born in Rockingham, North Carolina, and we have a beautiful historic racetrack that sits completely empty. And the reason is because NASCAR pushed away from its southeastern roots 20 years ago, going into markets that it needed to go into and expanding, you know, just like college football. They were chasing the money and got so big, so fast, and they lost touch with a big percentage of their, you know, core fan base is what they call it. And there are people out there who believe, and there were certainly people in the building at NASCAR for years who believe that if they banned the Confederate battle flag, then that was just another thing for everybody to raise health.

about about their abandoning their roots. And I think that's where that fear came from. And it was unfounded. It was embarrassing. I think when certain people think about the fact that they didn't pull the trigger on this before they did. But yeah, I think that's where it goes to is that that fear of abandon. Right. What do we hear about? I'm not a politics guy. Yeah. But we always hear about that that unmovable voting base of 20 whatever percent or whatever it is that just that keeps people from speaking out on things that normally would speak out on. Right. And you know it's in their heart, but they won't do it because they don't want to

abandon that voting base and on the left or the right. And so I think that with this, it was this, for years, it was this fear of, are we abandoning, you know, this base? And I don't think that base is as big as everyone thought that it was. So you don't think it's as big because, you know, that's why I was trying to pin down, like, you know, and the angry folks will always speak the loudest. So, you know, you're always going to hear the most trolls and that sort of thing on Twitter, but I'm going through the comment section.

I know that's not representative of, you know, NASCAR's fan base as a whole. But there's a lot of people that are besides themselves. What do you think the percentage of people that get this are? Well, I'll give you an example. So when I first started covering motorsports in the mid-90s, when the ESPN first paid me right out of college to go to the racetrack, I went to the Darlington Raceway, which is the old school, it's the oldest speedway, asphalt speedway in NASCAR. The Southern 500 is the signature race.

If you won that race in the 60s, a guy dressed up in a Johnny Reb costume would climb on the hood of the car and you do a victory lap and he'd be in Victor Lane with dual competitor flags, you know, while you took pictures. When I first started covering races of Darlington in the 90s, there was an old man with the card table right at the entrance of the Winston. garage selling nothing to a competitor flag. And there were 30 of them flying all around him, little ones, big ones, you know, ones with the Delano Hart's 3 on it and Hank Williams Jr.'s face on it. I mean, all those. I haven't seen that guy in 20 years. I'm sure he's dead because he was really old then.

When I first started covering the Daytona 500, hundreds of Confederate flag, this is in the 90s. This is the opening scene of Days of Thunder. There's Confederate flags in it. This past February, I spent a day walking around. around just seeing if they were in Confederate flags and the best I could come up with was 15 campground and this was at which uh track this is the Daytona 500 in februa yeah you do you think do because when I went to martinsville that's the only race I've been to I just drove down and somebody's got a an RV and drove down they had a good time but I will admit the abundance

of those flags made me uncomfortable and it wasn't one of those things that like hey if a dude with that flag rolled up to, you know, a cookout. And, you know, there's, you know, 10 of my friends there. I'm going to be like, hey, buddy, can you fuck off with that thing? But rolling up to a NASCAR race, you're kind of outnumbered. It's not like, it's not like you're going to get out. Yeah. Nag one of those. There were a lot of flags in Martinsville. Yep. You know, and there's different groups with that thing. There's the, there's the, there's the Dukes of Hazard General League crowd that just think it's, you know, a symbol of being Southern. And then there are the people who are 100% flying it because, you know,

so what does a rebel do if you're telling them they can't do something? They rebel. That's what they do. It's the guy I saw the line at the subway here on the North Carolina Coast the other day. They had a shirt with the Confederate battle flag on it. And underneath it, it said, if this offends you, ask me about its history. Well, that guy is just, he's looking for something.

He's looking for a fight. And so, um, so, you know, if you're flying in indefiance, you know, if you're flying it at all, it's for all the wrong reasons, whether it's ironic or whether it's, you know, because you know, because you genuinely hate another race. But at the end of the day, it's the perception of it. I mean, what I've had to talk about, I talked about with Scott Man Pelt last night. What I've had to talk about is this perception of what that fan base is and what NASCAR is. And I'm telling you right now, I'm in that garage my entire adult life. I know who those people are.

I know where their heart is. I know that the people who run NASCAR now, not necessarily three years ago or 10 years ago or certainly 40 years ago, I know who those people are, and I know who the drivers are. And I know what they believe, and they don't believe in what that flag stands for. I don't believe for it.

And so if it's an Alabama race weekend in the fall, I will do this a lot. I'll be at the Talladega, Super 2 on Friday, And on Saturday, I'll either go to Auburn or I'll go to Tuscaloosa, and then I'll go back to the track on Sunday. And when I do that, and I walk into the press box, you know, at Jordan Harris Stadium, I get the rolls of the eyes like, hey, how was a NASCAR race? And because they just don't understand why I'm committed to it.

Brad Dardy, who wore number 43 in the NBA because he loved Richard Petty, co-owns the team. That's spent his entire life apologizing and having explained himself to Michael Jordan and to all these people about why he chooses to go to work in a place where a symbol of hate is flown. Now we're not to do that. And it's that perception of this is what people think you are. And it's what those people at the racetrack were for a while. But I don't believe that's who they are anymore.

I'm with you. I think the loud people get the attention. Yeah. They don't represent the rest of us. It's unfortunate because it's such a cool sport. Like what cross-section of America does not like cars that drive fast? Right. None. You know, like everybody likes cars that drive fucking fast. Race cars are cool. Race cars have always been cool. They're always going to be cool.

And I want to get you to the racetrack and show you that. Right. But I don't want to have to immediately have to explain. You know, I took my daughter to Vegas. She was 10 years old. Dumbest thing I ever did. We just had, we were in Nevada. I'm like, hey, let's go see a show, whatever. It's containment and distraction the entire time, a stressful time. Because it's like, I don't want her to see the hooker flyers. and I don't want her to see, you know, we're going to dinner at Paris. I don't want to see the girls in the garden dancing on top of the slot machines.

It's containment distractions. When I take friends to the racetrack a lot of times, that's how I feel. Hey, look at that. Look over here. Look over that. Because I just don't want to have that conversation. But it's inevitable because you can't, you can't hide it. I thought you did a great job in the article, obviously.

Not only being vulnerable. And some people who probably hate your sentiment would call it white guilt. I would call it just being a realistic person and knowing your history and being cognizant of the fact that, like, hey, you weren't here for those seeds to be planted. But, you know, it's the tree has grown and we got to cut it down, man. I mean, like, it's just the reality. It doesn't mean that it's your fault, but this is real. And I thought you made it very clear to people in historical context. Some of these people, and I think about kids because, you know, growing up in Virginia, I mentioned this earlier in the pub.

I saw a lot of these flags, whether it was t-shirts, belt buckles. I listened to country music artists that in my 14-year-old brain, I didn't put two and two together that they were putting this flag on different memorabilia. I've seen guys with Confederate flag belt buckles that are like 13 years old. Usually what happens is you learn history, you grow up and you grow out of it. So I would just hope that like, especially the youth, reading your article, watching what NASCAR has done, might get the message that there's more to it than heritage, not hate.

Because I think that young people are the most susceptible to believing that this is just a southern staple. When it's not, you can love the South and have none to do with that flag. Yeah, I mean, listen, I'm down on North Carolina Coast, and I may or may not have a jar of moonshine in that house right there, right on the side of the truck. I had a bowl of grits for breakfast this morning. you know, I was listening to Johnny Cash while I had that bowl of grips. There are so many ways for me to let you know that I'm Southern

that don't automatically offend millions and millions and millions of people. Just because I'm trying to be cool. You know, there are so many different ways to go about that. If I wear a Richard Petty STP belt buckle, you think that doesn't say that I'm from North Carolina? No, I was thinking of New Hampshire. Right, yeah. I don't need a Confederate flag to,

to express that. So yeah, to me, Chris, it's about the history of it. And in the column, the reason I laid out my family history and folks haven't read it, I mean, I'm a direct descend of the slave owners. As so many people in Virginia are, you know, my family still owns the house where at one point my, my, you know, my forefathers owned slaves on that property. My brother still owns that house. My brother has met multiple times with the descendants of those slaves and they've stood in the field and they've held hands and they've pride and um you know i will be buried in the family cemetery next to that house alongside family members who fought in the civil war and when you walk into that cemetery what do you see there's this flag right here yeah it's

it's the stars and stripes because that's the flag that that my great great great-great-uncle and great- great-great-grandfather who were taking prisoner war at Fort Fisher outside of one went to North Carolina and not 30 minutes from where I sit, hauled to a prison camp in Elmire, New York. When the war ended six months later, they had to walk 600 miles back to North Carolina. They spent the rest of their lives trying to reconcile what they had done and what they had fought for. And they were buried beneath the flag of the United States of America because they were American citizen. And so if they recognize that,

then some Yahoo, who has the same background that I do, maybe not even as strong, he doesn't have two legs to stand on trying to tell me about heritage versus hate. Because I wrote this in a piece too. There was a time when the swastika was a perfectly lovely symbol of the sun

thousands of years ago. And it was that way for thousands and thousands of years. And then, you know, It was ruined a century ago. And if you turn it into a symbol of hate, then you throw it away. And I don't care what the background of it is. And you made a great point. I mean, if there was any decency left in that flag or honor, it was obliterated after the war and into the 1900s.

So after the article now, have you received a lot of hatred? Have you received like any threats? Have you received support? Is there anything that surprised you? Like, has there been one big name that reached out and validated this for you? Not that you needed the validation. Well, I mean, I've received a call from President NASCAR. I mean, during the Martinsville race at Wednesday night, you know, right after the story posted.

Like, I admire Steve Phelts very much, the President NASCAR. I've known Steve for a really long time. We used to sit in meetings together during my brief regrettable time on the payroll of NASCAR. And he, the emotion in his voice when we talked. And can you imagine the, the, the strength. level of sitting at the computer at 4.59, the day of a race at Martinsville, and right before you hit Send, that says Confederate flags are banned, you imagine, after 70 plus years of stock car racing and the flag being so tied to that in so many people's minds. And so to hear the

emotion in his voice, it just told me that it was genuine, not only his reaction to it, but just how he felt about what he had done and what the organization had done. But for me, though, it's about hearing from friends from high school, you know, from Travers Ress, South Carolina and Raleigh, North Carolina, where I went to high school, that I know damn well for not small portions of their lives. They have felt very strongly about that flag, and they also have had very strong opinions about people of color. Yeah. And when I hear from them and they're like, I'm thinking now or, you know, I'm having this conversation with my kids or, man, I hope you know that I'm not how I was when I was 18. Those are the ones that mean to most of me.

I mean, you know, I've heard from a lot of, I've heard a lot of famous people, a lot of people that I work with at ESPN and people that I haven't worked with before that I have done shows with over the last 24 hours. And that means a lot. But in the end, I just want to change somebody's mind. And so a small boy I went to high school with that I know felt very strongly on the wrong. out of this thing. If I got him thinking, Chris, that's a win, man. Absolutely. And it's one thing to get people that already presumably agree with you to pat you on the back, but to be able to convey something that makes somebody reconcile with something like that and take some inventory, that's huge. How about Bubba Wallace putting his safety on the line?

I mean, like putting his, I mean, I don't know if that's a reality, but if I'm him, I'm thinking, like, geez, I've taken a step that possibly compromises my feeling safe in some of these spaces. And this is the guy who was raised with social media. I mean, basically ever since, you know, he's in high school, he's been on something. And I mean, this is a guy that has played video games live on Twitch forever. You know, and very early on when he was just breaking in, was already on Twitter, and everything he tweets, there was at least one idiot that would come back with something.

offensive. Always. Yeah. And so he, he handles it so well. And, you know, I've covered that guy since he was a teenager. And, um, and I know his background. You know, he's from Knoxville, Tennessee. I don't just love him because he loves the falls, but that doesn't hurt. Yeah. And, uh, but he, he's a, he's a Tennessee guy when he was nine years old. He had a cousin that was shot by the, by an officer from the Knoxville Police Department, very controversial. The officer thought he was reaching for a gun. He had a cell phone in his hand. There was a gun in the back seat of the car. It was lawsuit after lawsuit and trial after trial and it went on forever. That's when that started when Bubba was nine. Right after Bubba won his first NASCAR event,

bought a brand new tricked out Jeep and was driving through Virginia. He was head on his way to Richmond, got pulled over. And it went from you failed to give a turn signal while changing lanes to five or six police cruisers and multiple canine dogs sniffing out his car. And These are the things that he heard about forever, but had never experienced it growing up in Moresville, North Carolina. But now he was. And so it was very personal for him. And so what he has said forever is,

were he given the platform and were he to reach the level that he wanted to reach professionally? He was going to do everything he could to make sure that more people who look like him felt comfortable coming to the racetrack because he loves it. And it breaks his heart, just like what we're talking earlier, it breaks his heart to love racing so much. And it's something, he's been going to the racetrack with his dad's

and so he could walk. And he wants people to experience that. But his friends of color are like, dude, I'm not going there. And so I give him all the credit in the world because you don't want to use the word opportunity when it comes to the situation that got us to where we are now with the protests around the world.

but it's an opportunity. And Bubba saw that. And he has moved the glacier a little bit. And you're right. And he's done it at his own peril. I don't know that Bubba spends a lot of time worried about his physical safety. I don't think anybody does, but it's always in that, like, when you speak out on issues like this, I mean, you know, you can only hear so much.

Yeah. You can only, you can only, you can be, listen, as soon as I mute this conversation is the greatest invention in the history of Twitter. So if I post, you know, I would love to tell you, I have gone through the, you know, a couple of thousand, whatever it is, comments that after the link I posted. I have not. I went through a few.

I like to pick out one jackass and just make it known. All right, I'm not dealing with these people right here. That's a good strategy. Yeah. Well, and I tried the other strategy for about 10 years. And I'm sure I think it took about 10 years off my life. So I'll sort of want to do it with this. But I think Bubba is very,

measured with that too because you know I mean you know the deal man I say there's like a 1,000 follower rule every 1,000 followers you gain Twitter becomes a little less fun oh yeah and so so so but Bubba handles all of it he'll pick one guy um a week basically and just say all right yeah this is an idiot and this is what I deal with the little people know but he he so being a virginian Wendell Scott who was the only other full-time black driver in the history of the cup series retired in the early 70s. He's from Danville. His family, the Wendell Scott family, his children and grandchildren, have become very close

with Bubba. And when he sits down with them and talks to them about what they had to deal with, I mean, a black family telling a race car into the Monroe, North Carolina, there's Starlight Speedway in 1965. I mean, can you imagine? It's unbelievable. The one race you won was in Jacksonville, Florida, and the early 60s and he still doesn't have the trophy because they said, oh, there was a scoring problem and they put a white driver in Victory Lane for no reason other than they didn't want Wendell Scott pictured kissing, you know, the missed whatever, Jacksonville. Wow. And so all these years later, he's in the NASCAR Hall of Fame. He still hasn't received his trophy for his win. So when,

when Bubba has aggressively gone and had those conversations with Willie T. Rib and with Bill Lester and with other drivers of color, you know, he knows who he is. And he knows what he symbolizes. And he takes that very seriously. And it would have been easy for him not to, but he's chosen the much harder road. And to your point, I think this came up a lot during the last dance and some of this stuff. A lot of these fans that wax, you know, romantic about the days when athletes were tougher and that sort of thing and had thicker skin.

Social media, I think, takes these guys through the ringer. And whether you play football or NASCAR or the NBA, I think you're even more equipped to deal with criticism because you've been dealing with your whole life. You know, like even for me, I'm so glad there wasn't Twitter when I was coming out. But because, for one, I would have spewed some dumb shit. Like I would, you know, embarrass myself on Twitter,

cringy stuff that like only an 18-year-old can tweet and somebody would be finding it now. But I can remember getting on like rivals.com or like this neighbor or, you know, some of these. Twitter for an 18-year-old turn of the century was message boards. I can only imagine how much the vitriol and the hatred online would affect a young kid now. So I think that gets lost in the shuffle. Guys are, they're ready to step forward and do this stuff like never before.

So the market hit. How does NASCAR explain to me like I'm dumb how NASCAR makes its money? and have they taken, I know they made this decision out of wanting to be right, but I think about if this hits fans and stands, what percentage of revenue is that? I mean, I would assume it's not as much. Yeah, it's not as much as I think people think it is. What NASCAR knows when they sat in a room at the start of this week

and said, all right, Wednesday we're going to do this. They talked about two things. They talked about, you know, what would the impact? to be, you know, image-wise, financially, attendance-wise, whatever. And they get a little bit of a free pass on that right now just because of the pandemic. Now, Talladega in two weeks, there's going to be 5,000 fans in the stand. You know, like I do, in the shadow of Anniston, Alabama, there's going to be at least one idiot. It's going to try to sneak a flag in there.

So let's just saw it. But that's the part they talked about, which is how big of a crap storm is this going to be? And, you know, when the fans do come back, when we go back to do. Daytona in February. When they go back to Darlington, you know, for the actual Southern 500, you know, Labor Day Weekend, which hopefully they do, you know, what could they potentially be dealing with? There's, there will 100% be protests. There is going, I guarantee you at, if not at Talladega somewhere soon, there will be

a line of 30 pickup trucks, all flying giant competitor flies trying to run laps around the parking lot. So they've already gone through what are all the scenarios. And I think the financial loss is going to be minimal. I think it's just a question of, you know, how quickly do you recover with the people who say they love racing and see when they're going to come back, you know, with an American flag versus a Confederate flag.

But again, I just don't think it's that huge percentage of people. It will become bigger. Like I talk about that, you know, a couple of dozen Confederate flags at Daytona. They're going to be a lot more than that next February, just simply because, you know, Rebels, don't like being told what to do. Exactly.

You hit it on the head. The guys that I've encountered and know that love this flag are the guys that they're going to try to wave it harder. And, you know, I think this could help the TV stuff because sponsors won't be as, you know, apprehensive about attaching themselves to a sport where you see this on TV and in the, you know, in the parking lot and whatnot. I think you could gain fans because, like, for instance, I spent more on Haskar this morning than I have on the NFL since I retired. I bought some intimidating

slides this morning. I just tweeted out that I'm supporting NASCAR now. And I really am going to buy merchandise because I think it's like as an athlete, as a sports fan, I want to lean into this thing in a sport that I don't know much about it. I'm going to say, you know what, I'll pick it up. I'm excited about it. I want to positively reinforce this action. So they're not sitting there and do my little part of. So they're not sitting there in a year and be like, we did the right thing, but it really hurt our wallets. And that's a reality. But you're right. they could ease into this thing with COVID because 5,000 is a lot more manageable than X amount of people that you usually have at a racetrack. So I don't know if they took that into account.

How do they enforce it, though? Because I see, okay, so I see three loopholes here. Right. Number one. Well, two loopholes, really. Number one, you've got the Mississippi flag loophole, which I think is going to be, is going to be a big loophole for these dudes. I think they're going to be like, oh, we just bring in this flag that has a smaller Confederate flag. It's Mississippi flag.

And then the other one's the tattoo loophole, which I see a bunch of tattoos, you know, stars and bars around here. I don't think, I think that's, you know, they're too far gone and you can't have a guy to remove his tattoo. But how do you enforce it? Because to your point, people are going to come harder with this stuff. Well, I think the initial concern is going to be the big stuff. You know, the initial concern is going to be the flag itself. And the flags that are flying in the infield that can be seen live on Fox and NBC, every weekend.

That's going to be goal number one. And I can tell you this. I mentioned I was on the, I worked at NASCAR briefly in the mid-2000s. I worked for NASCAR productions, which is like NFL films with race car. Yeah. And,

but I one time, a couple times got on a helicopter with the licensing people and watch them fly around these racetrack facilities. And these are just so you know, you could take multiple super domes and put them inside the infield at Daytona. I mean, these are massive facilities.

I was on a helicopter. I want to say it was at the Auto Close Speedway out in California. And I flew around with these license of people, and they had this giant set of military binoculars and a spotter with the radio. And all they did was fly around looking for illegal merchandise sale. And I watched them shut down. I mean, dozens of these guys.

You know, from an actual tent to just the guy with all the teams, shirts on his arm like you see when you're leaving a concert. Right. The cheap t-shirts. And I watch them take all those guys down in the course of about two hours. And so they have the ability and they have the playbook to find every flag and to get rid of every flag and to do it quick. And I think they want to be seen taking them down. I think if there is video of that flag being taken down somewhere, they don't see that as a loss. They see that as a message, which is, all right, this guy tried it. and guess what it didn't go work. And as for like the belt buckle crowd, you know,

there's going to be the guy that wears the t-shirt like I saw on Subway. There's going to be the guy that wears the belt buckle. And I think initially, you know what, I'm going to let belt buckle guy have his win. If that helps him sleep that night, that's fine. But I can't see that on Fox, you know. And I think that's what NASCAR's biggest issue. Because I think this could be one of those things that, you know,

in the immediacy, doing the right thing doesn't open the floodgates for people who might have previously felt uncomfortable showing up to a race to show up because it might be tumultuous for a few months. It might be this first year with the band. There's a lot of growing pains, but I think eventually five years from now, it will pay off and you'll see more diversity in the crowd

and people more comfortable. What about legends? Because I'm talking about for me growing up, those names that I would have easily recognized. Obviously, Dale Sr. is not with us, but, you know, Richard Petty, guys like that, how important would it be for one of these guys to speak up and give approval? Because I feel like a lot of these older fans tether so much of their fandom

to these guys that they grew up watching. Well, I'll say this. I mean, Bubble Wallace drives Richard Petty's car. That's Richard Petty Motorsport. It is the stylized 43 that Richard Petty himself designed and drove for decade and has still owned that car. And I love the king so much. And this goes back to when I'm a kid.

You know, if I'm just talking to you as a lifelong motorsports fan, the king is my guy. In my office in Charlotte, it is, I basically have five shelves with just nothing but, you know, Richard Petty stuff. I mean, I've collected it since I was a kid. But the king is really old school. And the king was not super helpful when Janet Guthrie was trying to race. But the king also, I've talked to.

about Wendell Scott earlier. The king wasn't out front about it because you just didn't feel like he put in the 1960s. But Wendell Scott, who didn't have two nickels to rub together as he was packing up to leave the racetrack, all of a sudden there'd be an engine seat. Or there'd be a brand new set of tires. And the Pettys, the Petty family would leave that for them. Like, oh, man, oh, gosh, we lost, we forgot so-and-so.

And they left it for Wendell to pick up and take with him. So there's always kind of been that secret back channel of support. Yeah. And now, with all that in mind, if you told me that in my lifetime, I would have seen Richard Petty's 43 car at the Martinsville Speedway with hashtag Black Lives Matter on the rear quarter panel. I mean, it wasn't that long ago, Richard Petty was the one who said, you know, anybody on my team who kneels or in a national anthem can go on a pack

up and go home. Right. And I think that, you know, Richard Petty's changing. Right. And now you could use him to come out publicly and say, but, But if you watch the way that Richard Petty interacts with Bubba and when Bubba Wallace almost won the Daytona 500 and his first time out with the Petty's just a couple of years ago, his first starting that race, you saw the emotional Richard Petty's face. What I tell people all the time is, if you want to be a Bubba Wallace fan, then help him get some sponsorship.

Yeah. That team struggles for money. That's not a top-tier team, even though it's Richard Petty. And so I told me, Bubba has had a really difficult time in his career. gaining corporate sponsorship for whatever reason. And I think the biggest reason is because on paper, it's I could support the black driver. But do I want to support the black driver in an arena that's covered in Confederate flags?

Right. So I'm hoping that that will change as well. But yeah, if Dale Earnhardt was here right now, I'm convinced. I know he'd be on the right side of this. Yeah. His son is. Yeah. Oh, Dale Jr. is the fucking man. He's the guy.

Yeah, not just because he seems to be an awesome dude, but, you know, the second generation athlete thing. And just he seems to be the perfect kind of humble guy, progressive guy to be a change maker in the sport. And by the way, when I was at Martinsville, I walked by the king. He was, you know, I got to go down in the infield. And by the way, as in a set, the guy has an aura. You know how Dave Chappelle said Rick James has an aura? I've been around a lot of athletes. This dude walked by and it was like the Red Sea parted.

He's the coolest dude of all time. The coolest dude of all time. Yeah. So we want to see evolution. That's the point. Like, you know, we want to see people evolve there thinking. Otherwise, why would we, why do we argue this stuff? Because if we're just arguing with each other and we all believe this is right,

we're not changing anything. So, you know, to see somebody like him evolving and being more out in front of it and out loud with it. I mean, I can't tell you how many people not to go down the cap road, but last four years, I had people and obviously I spoke in support of CAP. and there was not a lot of support. And now this weekend, the floodgates are open, people are open their minds. I've had a number of people, even on Twitter,

say, hey, I was one of those people who didn't get it four years ago. I get it now. So evolution's awesome. The king has an aura for sure. But Dale Sr., I did some reading, and it seemed like all signs point to the fact that I don't like speaking for people who aren't here to speak for themselves,

but it did seem like he would have been the type of guy that explicitly would speak out against anybody criticizing this. Del Earnhardt's mission, particularly in the last couple years of his life, his mission was much like we see with Del Arnard Jr. now, which is Dale Sr. was all about making some money for Dale Sr. But he also was about pushing the sport into the future. You know, he was so excited. And he died the very first race that Fox televised.

And I mean, your dad will tell you, It was, dude, it was, and I left the USP in work for Fox for a minute. It was the number one initiative in the company. And so the hype level was off the chart leading into that first race, the one that unfortunately, the Donor Hart Singer passed away. But he called Fox and said, I will do whatever you need me to do. Because he was all about whatever it was going to take to move into the next level for motorsports. And he believed it could be as big as any sticking ball sport.

And so, you know, as much as it pained him to pull up roots from places like Rockingham and Northwoods or whatever, he was at the leading edge of the push to race in Southern California and Las Vegas and, you know, and these places out west that NASCAR had met him before. He'd chastised drivers if he didn't feel like they were doing enough to promote the sport. So he would have seen it as the right thing to do. But on the, even on the most just callous level, he would have. of seeing in his way to make some more money. Yeah, and expand the reach of a sport he loved and, you know,

ultimately gave his life. And I remember watching that race. I mean, I remember where I was. That's one of those sports moments that you just don't forget. Terrible tragedy. Hard right turn here. Before I let you go, I want you explain some NASCAR stuff to me. I wrote some questions down about sport as a total layman.

First off, what's going on with COVID? Okay, because they were. were one of the first ones to get going again. Now we've got what looks like maybe a second surge. You're talking about 5,000 people in a week or two. You're talking about coming back to the homestead in Miami, June 21st in Talladega. What are your thoughts on that being a moving target? Well, I have, and I studied it extensively when they first, they were the first, I mean, the UFC had come back the weekend before. I think the American Cornhole League was already, it wasn't a lot. And so NASCAR, NASCAR.

I would argue not being a UFC guy, I would argue NASCAR was the biggest sport to come back first. It's certainly. It's a little safer than UFC to come back. You know, a guy bleeding in your eyeballs in the middle of a pandemic. But I always said the two sports that lent themselves to social distancing were NASCAR and golf.

Yeah. And their headquarters are very close there on I-95 in Florida. And so I think there were a lot of, I know there were a lot of conversations there. So they were so vigilant. If you didn't wear a face mask, not only were you escorted off property, but you were fined of $50,000. And I don't know if you know this, but, you know, gas can man and tire changers,

$50,000 is a hit. That's a big fine. And so, you know, I watched them at the Darlington Raceway for days before they got there. And they've done this at every track ever since with miles of red tape, like literal red tape, marking off the lanes. And this is where your team works and your 16 people have to stay together. And your 16 people have to stay together. the driver stays in his RV until the last possible second.

And all these men and women were wearing face masks and helmets and gloves and fire suits anyway. Matt Kenseth, who replaced Kyle Larson after Kyle Larson was fired during the quarantine, Matt Kenseth lasted as two races before he'd even met his pit crew. Because he was in this car. He walked out in his helmet and they were all in their helmets, and he just got in his car and went on race. So I've been impressed with what they've done and how, They have, despite the fact that the states they've raced in, have maybe been a little too aggressive with the reopening policies,

particularly around Darlington. But I'm a little... Talladega literally, Chris, it's the world's largest grandstand. So you spread 5,000 people out in that grandstand. Social distancing is not a problem. The backstretch is the longest straightaway of any oval racetrack on planet Earth. So you park 44 RVs back there, which is what they're going to do. There's plenty of...

at least for social distancing. But it's just the message of it. You know, I just, but it's no different than, I'm at a beach on the North and South Carolina border. And just a few miles south of here in South Carolina, they act like this thing never even happened. Right. And so that's what I worry about coming back too fast,

and that's not just about NASCAR, it's about college football too. Yeah, it's about college football as well. Help me pick a driver, or how do you pick a driver? If somebody comes up to you and they're like, you starting from square one here dude like i like spott you know maybe i'm i'm a sponsor guy i like the colors of some race cars i i like a personality like how do you pick one well you know chase elli who's dad was awesome bill from dossaville i've only known chase this he was born

um and he's a badass i mean he is he's he's he's he's a good i got a 15 year old daughter and she really loves her some chase elli he's a good looking dude and uh he kind of got this baritone voice. He's now kind of starting to discover that voice. He's still a young guy. He's winning a lot of races now. There's no question in my mind that he's finally starting fill that prophecy. I mean, you talked about second generation athlete, man. You know, when your dad's a first ballot hall of famer and, you know, awesome bill from Dawsonville and for a year or two was one of the biggest names in all of sports during the 1980s and you live in your own town of Dawsonville, Georgia, Charlottesville, wherever, you know, there's a lot that comes with that. And he's

He's handled it very well. So he's a studders. The guy named Ryan Blaney, who he's a second generation racer, comes from Midwestern dirt track guys. Again, young, good-looking, and he's a Star Wars nerd like me, so I like them too. Okay. And so, and I point people toward Bubba all the time.

You know, the group of young drivers that have come along in the last few years, the best I've ever seen, the best I've ever seen. And, you know, it hurts that Dell Jr.'s not racing anymore. And Tony Stewart and Jeff Gordon and all these guys are, retired. But, you know, that happens. They retire. So find a new guy. But yeah, any of those, any of those guys, those are your dudes right there. You would love Ryan, right? You would love Ryan Blaney. Okay. Ryan Blaney. Okay. My brother Kyle, who's more than NASCAR than me, says that Ryan Newman would be a good one as well. Yeah. And Newman, Newman's been around a long time.

And all Newman did back in February was kill himself and then walked out of the hospital two days later. So that might have been why. Yeah. He. So here's how focused race car drivers are. Ryan Newman has an engineering degree from Purdue. He went to Purdue at the exact same time as Drew Breeze. Never saw Drew Bruce play football. Because Ryan Newman would leave campus on Friday and go race all weekend. And then come back on Monday.

So people ask him all the time about what was it like watching Drew Breeze of Purdue? He's like, I don't. I have no idea. I was an engineer and a race car driver. That's pretty impressive. How about working out? Do these guys really work out? Like I know that they lift because I had a buddy.

I don't know if you played at Virginia. You remember a guy named Brian White? Oh, yeah. Yeah, B White. He was living in Charlotte and he was part of a crew for a while and he was like, man, the weightlifting setup is pretty damn good. How serious are these guys about actual fitness? Because I think they're athletes.

No, they are and they're super serious about it. And again, when I first started coming sports 25 years ago, that wasn't always the case. You know, Dale Earnhardt, Sr., worked out by throwing bales of hay around and driving tractors and knocking down trees. and I'm not making any out of it. And the 12-bounded bicep curls. Yeah, it was all Paul Bunyan kind of stuff, right?

You know, it was Rocky 4 in Siberia. That's how he worked. Yeah. But now it's super serious. I mean, Hendrick Motorsport, they go and they recruit college athlete into a pit-proof combine. And that's how your guy ended up, you know, in the opponent of pit-proof. They worked these guys out. And their trainer is the guy who was the trainer for the Yankees for those.

30 years. And so it's, I mean, you would be stunned if I got you on Pitt Road at how many guys you might recognize. That was the thing. Yeah. When I was down there at Martinsville, I got a pass and I was walking around and I ran into four or five guys from the ACC, guys you would remember that were like, hey, we played against each other and that sort of thing. And I'm like, holy shit. And by the way, a lot of black guys working on pit crew. Yep. And that's the part Pitrow as you got to work on my whole yeah yeah and you that was good by the way but yeah but nobody but no and that's the part that no one understand is that listen man again I go back to when I first started covering the sport and that garage was full of nothing but old gray-headed white dude who I was

so excited to meet because they raced in the 60s in the 70s in the 80s and I'm wearing them out wanting to hear their stories I walk through that garage now and it's just that that that's what that's why the flag was so evil because it betrayed those guys who worked so hard to reach the pinnacle of the sport and guys who played other sports at the highest level and now they're at the highest level of another sport and they have to almost apologize they do that apologize for this is well or just their friends going man i can't believe that you're doing this but yeah no no and jimmy johnson is an animal yeah he's a he's a machine that dude he will run a 500-mile race on a Saturday night,

and on Sunday morning, he'll be back in Charlotte and he'll run a half marathon. How much weight do they lose? Like a Jimmy Johnson? Water weight, yeah, water weight. They'll lose, I mean, during the course of a race, they will lose 15 pounds. And they obviously pissed themselves, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they don't shit themselves, though.

It depends on how bad their day is going. I've been in victory. Tony Stewart one time refused to get out of the car. because someone had to go find him a clean fire suit. Yeah, that makes sense. He was dehydrated. Yeah, and Tony would say this if he was talking to this right now. Tony is really, really, really old school.

I don't know that Tony's ever been in a gymnasium. Like he didn't have to like walk through to get to somewhere else. Now, I think it's changed now that he's retired and has a little time on his hands. But back in the day, I mean, he was A.J. Ford old school, he was eating steak and potatoes and drinking beer and getting in the car. and if he was dehydrated, you know, whatever. Power through it. Who is the best of all time guys that you hear drivers talk about it? Because I see them getting fights sometimes, right?

Yeah. I see sometimes it spills over into, you know, outside the car. Who is the guy that they were like, you just don't fuck with that guy? Well, and you go back and watch some of those fights and you'll see me. I've had guys go over the top of my head like Jimmy Superfly Snooka. trying to get to another guy. I've had crew guys pick me up and throw me out. I'm not a big guy.

They'll pick me up and throw me out of the way because they're trying to get to the fight. Now, dude, I've been, I was, I was one night at Charlotte. Matt Kenseth is the most mild-mannered dude. And one night at Charlotte, I think it was Brad Kislowski. So they park all the 18-wheeleres, the haulers they call it. These are the headquarters for all the teams. They park them about, just a few feet apart.

And so it's a really tight little alley. and I was following Brad Kislovsky to ask him a question. And Matt Kenseth went flying over the top of me and shoved me out of the way. And he jumped on Brad Kislovsky's head. And it was total WrestleMania. And the only people in that thing were the two of them and me. I'm like, the hell, I need a camera, right? But no, I've seen some fights.

But, I mean, of the current guys, Newman's the one because he's a fire plug. He literally has no neck. Like he's, you know, we all his joy. Yeah, you always joke about it. You go through a football program and, you know, you find the guys with no necks. And he was, he literally,

I used to write the NASCAR power rankings every week for you to spend outcom. I just referred to them as no neck Newman. Yeah, well, maybe this is why my brother suggested Newman because he sounds like just an animal. No, no, and he's a complete,

I mean, he's a fire plug, dude. He's just, I mean, it's, it's, none of these guys are tall.

You know, there's been a handful of Dale Jarrett, uh, Michael Waltrip, I mean, there's a handful of guys were six feet tall, but for the most part, AJ Floyd's a big, was a big dude in Indy car, but for the most part, like people, I love Mario Andretti. Everything that you loved about how cool Richard Petty is,

Mario is just as cool, but with an Italian accent. Right. Has won the Indy 500. He likes crapes. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. But people, people are stunned how tiny he is. Same with Jeff Gordon. Jeff Gordon, that's the most handsome dude you'll ever meet.

And people are stunned how. but race car drivers, for the most part, historically, have been little guys. Like the jockey thing. I don't want to fight any of them. I don't want to fight any. And you can tell when a guy's a real badass is when there's a fight happening,

and he takes his helmet off. Because he's scared. When Jeff Gordon would fight, he never took the helmet off. But some of these, Ryan Newman would completely take a helmet off. See, that's so funny because code number one in football is keep the helmet on and throw uppercuts.

You know, if you take your helmet off in a football fight, everybody's like, this guy wants to die, actually. Yeah, yeah. So a little college football before we roll out here. Where are we at right now with everything? I heard about the Bama players getting tested. To be honest, since the world got turned upside down, I have not paid attention to it. Yeah, no, and I don't think a lot of people have. And honestly, man, I'm a little, and you're talking to a guy that co-hosts the show on the SEC network, right?

And I grew up, in fact, right here, look at this. I'm where I've got a, I've got a go who's going. There we go. this cup right here dude is probably from not like 1985 my dad was an aced referee forever i know i read that i didn't know that he and i were shameless shameless plug or wrong on a book so uh i got one good story about what's the book called real quick for people it's called sidelines and bloodline september 15th my dad my brother and i write a story all my dad's great football stories and my brother and i telling stories about listening to coaches uh you know question my father's

relationship with his mother. Right. But yeah, there's a couple good Al Groh stories in there. Coach Groh could get a little fired up, as you know. But yeah, he can't. Yeah, he absolutely. So this, this, this cup right here, this is probably like a 1984, like Barry Word special right here, this Virginia Cup.

So, yeah, so that's, yeah, this is before the golden days of Virginia early. First sideline pass I ever had was right there at Virginia. And Barry Ward scored the game. I was 12. Bear Word scored the game win touchdown. and while I was taking a picture of it, the linebacker who missed,

who wiffed on the tackle plowed over me, dude. I mean, I don't know how he didn't break me in half. He knocked you into the Astro Turf. Oh, yeah, but it was the coolest thing ever. I immediately popped up and was like, this is the greatest job in the history of the world. I'm not big enough to play, but I'm going to figure out how to get paid to come.

And you were at the, I heard the story, not just your dad was an ACC ref, and, you know, the whole history of, I knew you in college, you wrote an article about me, but the UMBC story cracks me up with Virginia. Yeah, that was my Ernest Hemingway moment because it's the only game story I wrote completely drunk because they were like, you know what, man, we had two riders.

I live in Charlotte. We have two riders there, and we both been there. And it was all three really bad basketball games. And even with a couple of good matchup. And my coworker, David Hale that covers ACC FreeSpy.com, Hale looked at me. He goes, man, get out of here. He goes, talk your wife, go out. We don't both need to be here for a 16-1 game.

So my wife takes an Uber-U-U-U-U-U-U-U-U-Town. I go to the parking deck and throw my crap in the truck, this truck right here that I'm sitting in. And we went to like, she's a big, she's not into sports at all. So we went to like this jazz club, no TVs. Everybody is, you know, it's jazz, man, whatever. I'm making my wife happy. And I'm knocking down rums as hard as I can go. And I thought, you know what, I should check on the game.

and I got on my phone and I checked CBS website and the second half it just started and the freaking UMBC's up like 22. I can laugh now, dude. I can laugh now, but only because we won it all. But that was one of the worst nights in my life as a sports fan. And it was St. Patty's Day of all days. Oh, yeah.

And here's the worst part. I was up at a wedding for my brother-in-law and my in-laws, they have a lot of family in Baltimore. So I roll up to the wedding in Jersey and everybody's got these UMBC sweatshirts on and they're giving me like the nudge like, you ready for tonight? Like, but everybody's fucking around because they know it's not going to happen. Of course. Yeah.

And I see the lead balloon to 15 and 20. I'm like, we're not just going to lose. And the irony is my whole life I've wanted nothing more than to see that 16 one upset. Nothing more. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And we saw it. Congratulations.

Yeah. I've watched so many 16 stay close to the first half. and I'm like, we are the ones. And if this is the sacrifice it needs to happen, it's what needs to happen. So me running down the street, grabbing my backpack out of the truck and running down the street. And I get to the arena with like four minutes to go. And the UVA fans are already crying and walking out. But he ended up, that's what I wrote about.

I wrote about this one guy was laying on a bench. And he's just squall and crying his wife. And he goes, I was not alive for the shamanade game, but it couldn't have been this bad, you know. And could not have been. Oh, yeah. And so that was my whole lead was, you know, these wailing, these wailing, weeping Virginia fans leaving. And so I follow my story.

I mean, drunk. I file my story. And the next day, I tell that story on Martin McGee and my editor calls and he goes, we need to have a discussion. And so the matter of goes, first of all, it's the best post game story you ever wrote. I go, thanks.

He goes, second of all. Drunk more often. Second of all, if you do that again, you're fired. I'm like, all right, fair enough. But yeah. The best part is yesterday I was I was cleaning out a box looking for some memorabilia. And I pulled out of Sports Illustrated from after we won the Natty. And me and Heath Miller and Tom Sannie, if you remember those names, obviously you would.

But we go to Minneapolis to watch the game. And literally in the background of that shot with the guys on the court celebrating, me and them. with our hands up. So the first time for S-I, the cover. School, man. It was one of the best nights of my life. But, yeah, football, as promised, like, are we going to have a season?

Are we... You know, everybody, this was going to say earlier. You know, Utah and a guy that I co-host a show on the SEC Network. And I don't know why they wouldn't just wait until August 1st. I just, I don't, you know, I get it. I get the kids already in town. you know, everybody's twitchy because there was no spring football and you got to catch up and get in your workouts, whatever.

I get all that. Yeah. But I just, the rush to get back makes me so nervous. And I think, yes, we're going to have college football. We have no idea what it's going to look like. And people can tell you that they know what's going to look like and they're lying to you. And I think it's going to look different depending on where you live. I think if you live in Virginia and if you're in Asia,

ACC country, I think that you might see something that's very different than what you're going to see if you try to go to a USC Stanford game. You know, so I think it's, I think it's, or Stanford games, they've been socially distancing at home a lot lately. I know. Yeah. I was giving Zach Earts shit. There's like 10 people in the stands. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I went to spring game at Stanford one time and it was literally in the soccer stadium.

And there was a bigger crowd to sand volleyball court next door, which honestly, honestly, was a better time. Yeah. But the point is I think that depending, it's going to be a very regional thing. And I think there's still going to be some schedule overhauls coming. Because, I mean, it's no secret. The ACC and the SEC have been having quiet talks about, all right, if this thing goes south again, no pun intended, then, you know, instead of getting on a plane and going to fly in Oregon State, would you rather stay here and play Mississippi State? You know, so I think there's some of that going on. I think Notre Dame would rather just get on a bus and go to Northwestern again.

get on a plane and flying to ACC country five times. So I, but all that, all that's TBD. And anyone tells you it's not, it's lying. But I just get nervous, man. I just, I get that everybody's twitching and impatient and I get that the outside world is coming back very quickly, particularly in the southeast. But, um, but, you know, the, the, the, the positive COVID tests are the ones that we know about.

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And so, so I don't, I don't have any idea what it's going to look like. And it'd be tough to justify having kids hard. at work in big bunches, big groups, if you're not having the students back on campus. I mean, that's it. Yeah. And I mentioned my dad. My dad was a university president and I was of a division two school. And he was on the NCAA president's council, um, as the D2 rep for years. And what I've been trying to tell everyone is, is that all due respect to Nick Sabin or the strength

and conditioning coach who keeps giving interviews or the AD or the commissioner, at the end of the day it's up to the university president. If they decide that it's not in the best interest of the student body to be back, guess what? Y'all might not want to hear it, but the 100 guys in the football team are part of the student body. So ultimately, you get some university presence. They go, the hell with this, everybody's going to take their classes online, then that's going to include the players, too. Give me a team real quick with the most to lose this year if they don't have a season. That's prime to do something you might not expect and might not see it. Um, It's a great question.

I feel like we're, the Alabama era under Nick Saban is teetering just a little bit. You know, I think that they last year were making mistakes that they just don't make. I'm talking about quality control stuff. I mean, it's game 11 and they got 12 men on the floor, you know, or they can't get a certain set of guys out or trotted out in time. And so I think for the first time there's cracks in that armor. So any lost season at this point, I think, is a season closer to whenever the end of the saving era is going to come.

And so I think they're getting closer to that, maybe than people realize anyway. They certainly don't suck. I mean, they're great. And they're stacked. But as far as winning, going to the college ball playoff every single year, last year was the first time I thought this is, and the rest of that division is getting better. all the time. And so any lost season at this point for Alabama, I think, is, you know, one step closer to whoever the next coach is going to be. And do you think Clemson's going to be hurt by this whole Dabo stuff in the recruiting department or does it just not matter because

they're the new Bama? I think it doesn't matter because they spend so much money on recruiting. And Dabo is so good in that meeting room, man. I mean, and you saw, you saw the way those guys were rally in the middle of all the flag stuff on Wednesday and Thursday. I'll still looked in on the fact that all those Clemson players were coming out in his events. And you know the deal. If the guys playing there tell you as a recruit, dude, it's fine. Yeah, I think that's the whole key. And that's why it's good that guys, if they like him, stick up for him from the outside looking at. I was critical of his statement that was more of a word salad than a statement. It was kind of the antithesis of your condemnation of the flag

thing. He was dancing around it, you know, like, like, like, like, like a pro. So my only issue with Davo is that sometimes she speaks in these platitudes and, you know, I thought this was a moment where he could have stood up. So I was wondering if, if maybe their recruiting got hurt, but it doesn't seem to your point like the players are backing up some of these outside concerns. We'll see what happened. And we'll see. And we'll see how much it's used against him. You know, to me, it's all about how creative are the other guys that can use it against them. Exactly. You know, but yeah, I would do. I just, you know, it's hard, but it's also easy to just go on and say,

I know how he feels about this. Just go on and say it. He's bulletproof. What are you afraid of? Your boosters are going to be like, hey, Davo, you can't coach here anymore because you said the Black Lives Matter, the first time, the first swing at it you got. So what happens to players that if they don't see this year,

they're prime to go to the draft this year. They're not going to wait around another year, right? No, I mean, I don't think so. I mean, you, you know, it's, I think it's certainly different for different guys. And I wrote a story a few weeks ago about there was a stud first baseman for Louisiana Tech. And, you know, two years ago, in the middle of the season, they lost their stadium because the tornado went right through the middle of campus. They ended up finishing the year, you know, it was a lot. They lost most of the games down the stretch because they're playing at a local high school.

They just were exhausted. And then this year, they were rolling. This dude was leading the nation home runs and hitting four something and all that. Best senior hitter in the nation. And then this happened. And so the conversation I had with him was, what do you do? And the MAA draft is going on right now. And he's like, even if I'm drafted, I want to come back and finish my business.

And I love that. But I think it's probably particularly at the Clemson, Alabama, you know, Georgia at that level. I mean, you know, man. It's also football, too. Yeah. I mean, you risk a lot taking that field even for a second. If the lead calls you go. And so, yeah, it'll be lost seasons for a lot of guys.

But honestly, too, it'll also solve problems for coaching. Because this year of eligibility that a bunch of guys have gotten back in the spring sport, it's a log jam. That's a problem, you know, because coaches kind of have a rhythm to how they recruit. So the big schools will be fine. But, yeah, I mean, you tell me, but I feel like if the league calls, you know, I'm always going to sign. I'm the writer nerd who never play college football.

So I'm always going to lean toward, man, I hope it's rah, raw, be true to your school, but it's end of the day. Yeah, and I was like that. Like, I could have came out of my junior year. I had a bottom of the first round draft, but I also had means. And so my dad played in the league for 13 years. I had an opportunity to come back, and I felt a strong connection to my teammates. But that was also a different time.

There wasn't as much player empowerment, and there wasn't as much players speaking out. So, yeah, we'll see what happens. Ryan, I appreciate the time, my man. I could talk for three hours. You've done an awesome job. It's good catching up. And one more time, give me the plug for that book coming out that I will read.

And I'm not a book guy, but I will read it. I appreciate that. Now, sidelines and bloodlines. It comes out September 15th. You can pre-order it now. I think the covers on Amazon now. We just approve the cover. But yeah, it's me, my dad, my brother.

And, I mean, you know the deal, man. When you're born into the sport, you learn it at a little bit different level, certainly in a different way. And for me, sitting in the grandsons at Virginia or Georgia Tech or Notre Dame or wherever and listening to everybody, you know, call my dad a blind mofo. That's an interesting way. But we love the ACC. I don't love the ACC reps now because they do things like they did in the Wake Forest,

North Carolina game last year and so on and so forth. They've been taking heat. But when I was a player, I just, I thought we had a really good rapport with those guys. The ACC, I'll always be nostalgic about the Doc Walker days, the Raycom sports era. I mean, like, ACC is, it's not the SEC in history, but it's got its own history. So it's way. And you and my, you shared the field with my dad. I mean, my dad's last, my dad's last full season was 08. And so you get a lot of the same. And so you guys were absolutely, and he worked so many Virginia games. So there's a, there's a, there's a, a, there's a, a lot more Virginia stories in the book than, uh, than anywhere else. So at least I hope to help to sell a couple in Charlottesville. But that's awesome. We'll,

we'll push them hard here in the, in the four three four. Ryan McGee, really appreciate it, man, and, uh, come back anytime. You call me anytime, bud. Okay, buddy. Thank you.