Green Light with Chris Long - Will Chesney On Navy SEAL Operators & The Raid That Killed Bin Laden | Life After With Will Chesney

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

Will "Cheese" Chesney is a certified badass, former Navy SEAL Operator who was deployed on Operation Spear, the raid that ended with the killing of Osama Bin Laden. Hear Cheese tell David Vobora his remarkable story, from working as a dog handler with his beloved dog Cairo, being injured in action, raiding the compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, and struggling with demons after the war. (00:00) - Intro (1:30) - Youth in Texas (5:10) - Joining Navy SEALs (20:30) - Deploying as a Navy SEAL (25:40) - Becoming a Combat Attack Dog Handler (38:50) - Cairo the Dog (46:55) - Operation Neptune Spear: Killing Bin Laden (1:09:15) - Last Operation as a SEAL Operator (1:23:55) - Overcoming Post War Demons (1:29:00) - Cairo's Story Life After with David Vobora is an inspirational and motivational podcast that dives deep into guest's personal stories of hardship, perseverance and personal realization. After playing professional football, overcoming addiction, working with Wounded Warriors, and creating the Adaptive Training Foundation, David knows that life-altering events come in many ways, but they always come. On the new series, former “Mr. Irrelevant” in the NFL Draft, Vobora, talks with incredible guests about overcoming adversity in the face of unimaginable circumstances. David identifies crucial—and sometimes tragic—moments in their lives' that helped shape both their success and who they are today. Motivational Podcast | Inspirational Podcast | Perseverance Make sure to like, follow and subscribe on Life After's YouTube and social pages, linked below: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCaFfMRZJRbo2_57YUmjqylA Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lifeafterwithdavidvobora/?hl=en Twitter: https://x.com/LifeAfterWithDV Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lifeafterwithdavidvobora https://youtube.com/@lifeafterwithdavidvobora?si=IdpcHfEtN5V_UQJn And check out the Green Light Podcast here: https://greenlightpodcast.org/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Navy SEAL Will Chesney is a certified badass. SEAL Team 6 member who got to be a part of the most famous operation in U.S. Special Forces history. Operation Neptune Speer, the killing of Osama bin Laden. As a dog handler, you're going to hear Will talk about his most amazing pup, Cairo. Cheez, who grew up in KD, Texas, ends up back there after his service, drinking himself to death, facing life after moments of a lot of the devastating impacts and injuries that he faced while he served. this episode is ripe, it's raw, and he takes us through his own vulnerable ways

of explaining what it was that he faced post-service. Check it out. Welcome to the Life After Podcast. I'm your host, David Vibora. We're a very special guest. My man Will Chesney. What's up, brother? Thanks for being here, man.

All right, they call you cheese. Where did you get the nickname? What's the call sign? Can you tell us? So it used to be called Cheese. I don't go by it anymore, but last name is Chesney. It was right when the movie came out

was old school, cheese. Yeah, we locked you in a dumpster. I got out. That's awesome. So everybody loves saying cheese, and it stuck. In the team room, I forget who came up with it. It's always how it goes. But after I retired, I just retired the name as well.

Yeah, retired as the cheese that you were in the teams. Well, we're going to get deep into your SEAL team history and all of the incredible, extraordinary experiences and accomplishments. But first, man, let's just start at the beginning. You're Texan, right? So talk about when growing up in Texas. Where are you from? Yeah, I grew up in a small town called Lumberton, Southeast Texas.

Not a whole lot. I grew up in a trailer park. It was a nicer trailer park, but it was still a trailer park. It wasn't a whole lot to do. Go to the mall, play basketball. There was plenty of drugs in the trailer park. But after high school, it just wasn't for me. I didn't have anything I was really passionate about going to school for.

So it wasn't like, you know, school. you were a straight-A student. I didn't have bad grades. Yeah. But I just didn't, school wasn't my thing. Yeah. I wanted to serve my country. Yeah.

And I heard SEAL training was some of the hardest military training in the world, and I love the water. Yeah. So some punk kid from the trailer park in Southeast Texas wants to join the Navy and become a SEAL. Yeah. It was one of the best things I've ever done.

So how did you hear about SEAL teams? Was there a movie? Was there a book? Was it a friend at school? Did you have brothers and sisters? I'm an only child, so. Dad, dad introduced you to it? How did you find out?

Just. Just hear about it, you know? Just, Navy SEAL is the hardest military training in the world, some of the elite. Yeah. I'm a big water guy. Like I love water. And I was in, man. So what, I mean, for you playing sports growing up?

A little football. Okay. Yeah, in Texas, you have to. That's just part of the prerequisite. A little bit, but since we know, we're a little bit poorer, had to get a job. So I did the work program in high school, like half days and I go work. Okay. So I played sports for a little bit.

I just... So you knew the Navy was your one. your way out? Navy's the way out. Okay. And so was it what like senior year when? Like tell me, give me timeline here. What years were you in high school? So we graduated in 2001, left for the Navy in 2002. Wait, so 9-11 happened when you were in? When I was in high school, mm-hmm. So 9-11 happened, left for the Navy in 2002. Tell me about 9-11 for you, because I remember I was a freshman in high school and I remember sitting in, you know, first period and watching the whole thing. So what you were saying?

senior, junior, senior? Yeah, it's a senior. It must have been a senior. What was the impact? Do you remember it? Yeah, I remember specifically being in the library and watching it all happen. What did you feel? Like I wanted to go deploy. All the more clarified what you were going to do? 100%.

Yeah. So what had you heard about? I mean, you heard that it was the hardest training on the planet, but did you study up? Like, I mean, it's not like today where there's, you know, a whole abundance of information that you can find on the web or in books. and guys stories. There's books, Rogue Warrior, all the Marcinko books I read, and then there's a few other books. Charlie Sheen movie.

Yeah, Navy Seals, of course. You know, it's so funny. Top Gun reminds me of being in the Navy more than any other thing in the whole world. That's my thing. I don't know if there's nostalgia I get from watching that. It's a pilot for some reason. That's what does it for me.

Maybe it's Tom Cruise. What did you think of the second one? Very good. It's really good. Yeah, they did a good job. Yeah, I was fired up. It's funny, so I come from three generations of Marines, but my grandfather was,

31 years in the Corps, Lieutenant Colonel, Airwinger. I actually flew Huey's, or sorry, Corsairs, then Huey's and was raided in the Cobra, but Top Gun was our movie. It's actually where I learned all the curse words that I'd get in trouble for later in life. My mouthwash out of soap. You know, my mom at some point switched from the bar of soap

because it wasn't affecting me anymore. Just started using the dial dish soap. I'm going to tell you that. Back to Ralphie from, you know, what's the Christmas movie? Christmas story. Christmas story, yeah. Soap blinding or soap.

So, soap, poison. I'm pretty sure I was close to it. So the propaganda, let's just call it what it is, of some of the appeal to being a part of the Navy SEALs, was an allure to you. What for you was you went into Basic and then ultimately, was there pre-Buds, then-Buds, then? You go through boot camp.

Yeah. A-school, which is just your regular Navy school. Now they have a seal-specific rate, so your SO special operator back when I joined, you had to be, if you had to have a Navy, certain rating in the Navy that allowed you to go to Bud. So not every rating allowed you to go through that pipeline. I actually joined my recruiter.

Don't ever trust your recruiter. Fun fact. Maybe she didn't mean to screw me over, but my rating was IT, if I don't even remember which one it is, but it was for submarines. So it was like $5,000, you get an extra bonus, just go through a little bit harder school. And I was pretty smart kid. I was like, yeah, but it signed me up for submarines. And then when I get to boot camp, I remember being there,

and this chief comes up to me. Chief's big rank, you know, E7. It takes a little while to get there, and I'm just some punk kid from the trailer park just got to boot camp. And this chief comes up to me, he's like, you're wanting to go to Buds, but you're going to submarines, and that doesn't allow you to go to Buds. He's a submariner himself, and he's like,

I'm not going to change your schooling. Like, you're going to be on a submarine. You're going to go to this school. You're just dying inside. rushed me. Like I literally the whole, all of my life drained out of me. What am I going to tell this chief? I'm nobody.

Like, no. What did you say? I really don't even remember. I must have blacked out. I came to. Yeah. He changed it. I remember he was like, you're, I get it.

I put myself in his shoes. Yeah. How many people quit butts? 80% nutrition rate. Some young kid that has a great rating, a great bonus. Gonna be on submarines, gonna have probably a pretty good career. Or I'm gonna go to Buds and quit. And then I'm gonna be a good.

be chipping paint on a ship. So he was trying to look out for me, crushing me. But he didn't know who was in front of him. I had no idea. Somehow I convinced him, though. Yeah. Talk about divine appointment, right? There's a couple of hurdles I had to get through.

Yeah. Yeah, so let's talk about those hurdles, man. I mean, so you're young. You signed when you were 17. I signed up when I was 17. Crazy. And then this conversation happens probably when you're 18, right? And then this whole trajectory and this opportunity comes to go out to Coronado, right?

Talk about landing, you know, at Buds and what that process was like. I mean, most people know what Hell Week is like, but there's a lot on the front end of that, right, that leads to Hell Week. And ultimately, even though you secure Hell Week, you're not officially a seal yet either. So let's talk about just Buds, man. What was your state like internally? Was it one of those where you're like, man, I'm built for this, I'm made for this, I got this? It was a little bit of like, yeah. There was a couple things I felt I might have an issue with.

It's like I went and ran the obstacle course for the first time, and I'm like, uh-oh, this is going to be difficult. Like, that's when I kind of question, like, am I going to be able to pull this off? Was it the physical threshold of that, or was it to nature? Navigating the obstacles properly. But then you sign up for class, and the instructors walk you through it, and they teach you how to do everything. And next thing, you know, I'm blowing through the O course. Same thing with the swim. The trailer park that I grew up in did not have a pool.

Not a pool you'd want to get in type of thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I was comfortable in the water, but I was no fast. swimmer. I showed up to boot camp. You have to be able to do the screening test is what they call. It's a push-ups, sit-ups, pull-ups, run, swim. And that swim, you have to do breaststroke or side-stroke. I didn't know how to do either one of those. So here we go.

They luckily, we had good instructors there, and I failed my first test. Felt the swim, for sure. And then they gave me remedial swim lessons and learned how to do the side stroke. And then past the time, but the times only get faster. That's an easy swim. It's a 500-yard swim maybe. There's nothing. You get to bud, you're swimming five and a half nautical miles, two miles all the time, all the time. Yeah, that's like a normal warm up, right? Nothing. You're in the water, you're a seal. Yeah. You're in the water period all the time.

So for you, the opportunity to learn, right? Because I think, you know, you and I have spent a lot of time together. We, like, you're somebody who you're curious. You ask really good questions. I compliment you for that. Is that part of just your trait as a learner? Like, the better questions I can ask, the more information I can gather, right, the better I can perform. Try to teach myself to keep my mouth shut and listen. Yeah.

Especially when you're around people. Yeah. Do you think that's a trait of any good seal? It should be. Yeah. Some seals like to talk a lot. Well, there's many different cuts from the cloth. Many different.

Talk about your fear of heights, because I think it's so ironic. I don't know what you're talking about. I have no fear. What do you mean? Yeah, dude. I said before you, fearless and everything. I hate heights because heights in public speaking, right? But

just had to get over. So I'd join and then afterwards after I graduated high school, I had a couple months before I left for boot camp. I worked with my dad. He did cell phone tower construction. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sketchy. Yeah. First time I ever took me up on my first tower. It's a monopole. There's no ex-braces. It's a solid pole with stepbolts on the side. You climb up to the top or winch yourself up to the top. At the top, there's a big X with all the intends are coming out of. And I'm tied off to one of the bolts leaning back

the first time. He's standing on top of the X, no clipped in or anything. And he's kicking my equipment. He's a little rope. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're a little rope that you tie to your stepbolts. And he's like, lean back and do your work. And I'm leaning back.

And he's like, lean back. And I'm like, oh my God, you're gonna kick me off the tower. And why are you not clipped in? Yeah. Bro, what if you fall? He was just smooth and fast. right, just steady. So for you, when you say a trait of yours

is like I recognize a fear and rather than trying to work ways around it, like I just target it, go through it, desensitize it through reps. I'm going to go join the Navy to become a Navy SEAL. That's no, not just saying that. Like I'm literally going to go be a Navy SEAL. I'm like, okay, if I can't suck it up

and get up a tower for not a normal job, it's not your typical normal job, but it's a job. If I can't do this job, then I'm never going to be a SEAL. if I can't do this. So you started to prove it before you ever had to jump out of a plane. Let's go see if I can't get over this fear.

Yeah. Do you look back now and look at like, man, that was actually pretty special? It was very special. I enjoyed my time for sure. Yeah, that's cool. All right, so we get back to Buds. You get there, you guys start, you know, there's, how long are you in sort of the first phase of buds before Hell Week?

So you have end dock when you show up. So you go through boot camp, A school. That was in Great Lakes. You get through that. And then I showed up a little early flat to Colorado, California. Bud's is. I showed up at least a month early. I had nothing else going on.

Help out with the class that was going through. And so that was cool experience. I got to help out with the third phase classes. And that's when you got some oversight on the O course. Yep, you just get to hang out. So there's three. There's end dock. And then you get into Buds,

and Buds is three phases for second and third phase. So I showed up early as a white shirt. You don't get a brown shirt until you make it through Hell Week. And that's when you kind of see everybody's in white shirt. Those guys are in brown shirts. you've made it through a week. Yeah, that's a big deal. So I show up as a white shirt helping out

with some of the guys going through third phase and that was really cool to see. And then I did that for a month, maybe two months. And end doc starts, that's a month. Endog technically isn't part of Buds, I guess, but it is. We lost a lot of guys.

We were not a winter class. We were a summer class and a lot of people will give us crap for that. Like, you know, a hard class here. But they beat us. So we didn't have, I mean, the water in San Diego was the water in San Diego. Yeah, the Pacific's not warm

no matter what, man. No matter what time of year it is. It was summertime. But then you end up in the winter in Coronado. So, right? Right. I mean, it's the nature of the beast. They just beat us more.

Yeah. We lost a lot of guys in Endog. Yeah. So you said 80% sort of the average, but what did you start with and what did you end with in your specific class? I want to say we started with just under 200 guys,

and we graduated 22 originals. Dang. 44 total. If you're hurt or you don't pass one evolution, then you're good. You're solid. They'll roll you into another class, let you physically heal up or retake whatever evolution you failed.

You didn't roll. You never rolled. Yeah. Thank God, because then I wouldn't have made it. Was it things like to back to, I mean, obviously you worked through tons of different things that were painful and injured. But was there anything that kind of made you go like,

dude, if this knee doesn't, if I can't get through this, like I might get rolled and I really just got to figure out a way through? No real bad injuries. I got sick once. Okay. Right before Hell Week, and I remember standing there on the beach, we were doing nighttime rock boardage, and I was sick, and I wasn't able to do it.

And one of the instructors came over, and he's like, get better. He's like, I've been watching you. You're solid. It's like, no more of this. I'm like, dude, I'm sorry. I didn't need to get. Yeah, yeah. That was the one evolution where I started to get a little sick before Whole Week.

I recovered. I had to miss. I felt really bad for missing out on an evolution, but bounced back. And then Hell Week started. Thank God I wasn't sick because actually my roommate, I guess I might have actually gotten him sick. he got sick and he didn't make it. Dang. Yeah, there's so many things I need to align, you know, much less just the mindset

between the ears to be able to take it. And Hell Week's no joke, he'll kill you. We have people die in Hell Week. Yeah. You going through Hell Week with pneumonia or whatever, we'll die. True statement. More SEALs die in training than in combat? I don't know about these days.

Yeah. But there's a lot. Yeah. Unfortunately. But you have to train at that speed, right? You have to. Yeah. There's no other way.

Know that that way when you go out there because what you fall back to your level, level of training. I think there's, you know, a lot of different stories and books and movies and things about Buds, but something that sticks out to you, was there a moment when, or even just hearing the bell ring, right, when guys quit, for those that don't know, there's this signifying very, very palpable sound, very visceral sound that goes off across the grinder. What was it for you to hear people quit? And did it affect you in your own kind of internal true north of like, that's just not for me? Not at all.

Yeah, they bring the bell. You have to ring the bell three times when you want to quit. They'll bring it with us. Even so it's a grinder is where we do a lot of our workouts. And then once you quit, they line the grinder with the helmets of guys that quit. But that's where the bell stays by the instructor's office and the big PT grinder. Actually, they've changed it these days. I haven't been to the new facility.

But I'm assuming it's the same. But even when we're not on the grinder, they'll take the bell and they'll put it on a truck. And the bell goes everywhere. So anytime you want to quit, we got the bell right here. Yeah, it's close, man. But I remember being inhale week. week and we ran, I don't know, it was what we call the Elephant Gages. It was a good hike, however many miles down the beach, run down with boats, back with logs or something like

that, but we ended up running down. It was quite the evolution. And then the next day it's sun shining and we're beat. We're pretty exhausted, but the sun's shining on my face. We just got done with that evolution and now we're, I'm getting to eat. It was MREs. It sucks, but I was pretty happy. Sunshine in my face. I'm not getting beat right now and I got some food. and I just hear the bell ringing and ringing. And I'm sitting there eating. I'm like, that stands out to me. Why are people quitting right now?

Like, we're on a break. We're going to tell us to get back in the water, I get imagined. But it was just weird to me, like, just hearing the bell ring over and over and over again. I'm actually having a pretty good time right now. Is there some surprising guys? I mean, I'm sure there's guys that come that look like just Thor, right? 100%. And it's gone.

And gone. Like, look at that guy. He's definitely going to make it. Where'd he go? and just, the water is a very humbling thing sometimes. It'll put you in your place. Was there times when the bell would ring

and someone that you're like, you know, like at some level you bonded with and some person you thought was, like they were dialed in? And is that bittersweet? Is that kind of like an odd thing where it's like, man, like I really like that guy?

Yes. Like my roommate. I really like that guy. Didn't see him again after a week. Like, oh, that sucks. But even one of my best friends, Jared Shaw, I think we were talking about him earlier.

Yeah. He's such a stud. He's such a stud. literally one of the best human beings I ever I know. He said, you didn't talk to me before Hell Week. I didn't even realize I'm sorry. He's like, you barely talk to me. You just never know who's going to be around.

I'm a pretty quiet guy anyways. Just keep to myself. And then after Hell Week, you look around and see who's there. Do you think it helps you to be a little bit of that kind of quiet a little bit? I want to be the gray man. All this that we're doing here is not my style. If you had asked me 10 years ago, if I'd be on camera, have a book, I would have laughed. Yeah, yeah.

No way, not a chance. You're definitely an introvert. Yeah. Sometimes it's just better to keep your mouth shut and listen. Yeah. I could learn from you from that perspective for sure, man. So there was never thoughts of quitting. Ultimately, you know, you secure hell beat with a lot less guys.

What was the feeling? I mean, after being depleted, so sleep deprived. Was there any moment like where they did something unique to your class, like, in the water? Or, you know, I mean, you're wet and sandy the whole time. Whole time. By the end of whole week, guys are literally walking around with bowl egg. Salt abrasions. Everything is shaped. So they give you a brillo pad after a week. And they tell you to go scrub all the roast beef that you have on your body. And it's everywhere. Especially between your legs. We had one guy, his balls. Elephant Titus.

Got it big. Oh, no. That's not the time in your life that you need that to be happening. Yeah. Yeah. I know some guys that in the hospital have had something happen. They're like, yeah. You know, like later on. I don't want any of that. What is wrong with you? Yeah. Yeah. Block it with the sand in the panties.

Yeah, just everywhere you go, just don't touch me. Yeah. After Hell Week, though, I remember getting Hell Week secured and that was great. They give you, they do a ceremony on the beach, it's cool. Shake everybody's hand. It's special, man. Actually, in this facility that we sit right now, which is Navy SEAL Clint Bruce's spot here in Dallas.

And this is actually exactly where I've met Staff Sergeant Travis Mills, Quadruple amputee, where I started my gym, my family. but you know being in this facility again it just there's been so many legendary seals that I've met through connectivity with Clinton you definitely being one of them and I'm you know look at the end of the day I wish I would have the opportunity to serve at any level you know even in comparison but there is probably a little bit of synonymous expression with what it means to be part of an NFL team and you you know you definitely were somebody that I think took moderate talent and well overachieved through hard work and

Just humility. I saw that playing football in high school. Like all the gifted athletes who were the A team that were running bleachers and the coach stops everybody. He's like, why is Chesney beating all of you guys? Like, hey, thanks for throwing me under the bus coach. I know I'm a little fat and poor. He's like, he's putting out.

I want to see y'all. And I was like, okay, well, a little bit of hard work and I put out. Get recognized. Just because you have talent doesn't mean you're going to go anywhere. If I don't have any talent, but I really try hard. And it worked out so far.

So far, so good. Yeah. Well, that's a trait to everybody here. I think people probably, you know, well, I'm not a Navy SEAL. I've done these things. Like, no, you're human. You're human. And guess what?

Like, there's principles, effort and attitude. Those are always in your control. Yeah, that's good, bro. 100%. So you secure Hell Week. Then there's a process of getting teamed up, like officially, right? So talk about, and you first started with Team 4 out of Virginia. Went to the East Coast.

East Coast. So Team 4. Did two deployments there. What was it like getting to? team you know obviously you're green near the you're the new guy just the new guy shut up take out the trash and learn yeah I'm sure you did that with grace it was great yeah I don't want to go back to the trailer park yeah this is where I want to be yeah I joined the Navy to become a seal selfishly and I ended up getting a lot more

out of it than that I got a family out of it yeah so it was very special yeah super cool first deployment Iraq Iraq first one was pretty uneventful we did a little bit of security detail. You remember the first time you took enemy life? I do. Talk about that. You feel like you thought it would feel? We were on a roof.

I was a sniper, and I was on one roof. The assault team was down below. We were driving vehicles at the time, so Humvees, and there was a second building that they were hitting, all the assultors were hitting, and I'm just on this roof,

and I knew all the guys were down there, and I knew they were assaulting the building. And I'm up there with one of our counterparts, Iraqi counterparts. I had a great... Sometimes the forces that you work with overseas suck. My sniper guys in Iraq that I had, they were solid. Nice.

I liked them. But anyways, it's me and one of my guys up there. And he sees somebody moving, being just doing something shady on the other rooftop. And I remember we just heard about guys taking grenades and throwing them off roofs into the Humvees and the end of the assault force down there, and he was being real shady, so we watched him.

He calls me over, I watched him, and I got a clean shot on him, and I dropped him, and he fell behind. There was a low wall. So I got somewhat of a decent shot on him, and I hit him, and he fell behind the wall, and then I let the assault force know that he was doing something, man. I was just waiting for him. Like, did I see a gun on him at all?

I can't say 100%. I saw something. But if he throws a grenade over this roof and he kills one of my guys, He's like, I'm not going to be able to live with myself. So it was a really weird situation. I was a new guy, pretty new, taking a life. It was a split, it was a fast decision that I had to make.

It's like, okay, and it ended up being the guy we were looking for. Nice. So knowing, so I was so new, but after being around for a while, when you see somebody acting like that, at the time, I didn't know that. I was just like, oh God, I'm so new. No, you shoot that turd. Yeah. Like, he's a bad guy. Yeah.

Thank God he didn't throw a grenade. Like, thank God he didn't hesitate a little bit. And thank God he didn't kill anybody. That was the first time. Actually, I was very nervous. Hey, man, have we all good on this? He's like, yes, that's the guy we were going after. I'm like, okay, cool, perfect.

Not only that, during the debrief, I think it was the next day, they actually, some of the army personnel that were there, wanted to say personally thank you for killing that guy because he had been killing people, Americans. He had killed, I don't know how many people, but. Yeah. I mean, you were there to do the job, right?

I was there to do a job. I'm like, oh, yeah, cool. So that was a good shot. Cool. Perfect. So you sort of started, I mean, you're, the amount of schools, elite performing schools that you attended and got different tools in the kit, right? So you could be more valuable.

Sniper school was one of the early ones. What other disciplines did you get into during your team four time? So as the new guy, I got Com school, which ComSchool would be a good school, but it can also be a pain because... Why? At Team 4, right before the mission, everybody seems to lose crypto, is what we call it. Yep. Makes our radio secure. I'm the comm guy with the...

So I'm having to run around. My radio's not working. My radio's not working. And you're the new guy. And I'm the new guy. Don't mess this up. We got to go, hurry up. But it's not the worst thing ever.

Yeah. But I got that school, which I was very happy to get. Like, I'm having no complaints on my end. Yeah, yeah. Get that and then I got sniper school and then I got another school where you're JTAC. You learned how to drop bombs. And that was a little trifecta to have that made me pretty valuable. So some guys sort of like, man, I'm a breacher.

That's what I do. That's my shtick. That's your passion. Yeah. But, I mean, at this time being on Team 4, first deployment or just there and after, was there like, hey, dude, I'm going to be as valuable, like, the idea that you could have an opportunity to be on Dev Group? was that in the back of your head even from the early days?

I heard about it on my second deployment. And when I heard about it, I'm like, okay, well, I got nothing else going on. I'm just going to keep progressing my career. I love what I'm doing. If there's another pipeline to go trial, let's go try out. So you're in your mid-20s, single. Early 20s, I'm...

Yeah. Young, gun in. This is it. You don't even to pay me. I'm playing with all these cool toys. Endless budget. Yes. Yes.

It's everything I wanted. So after, I think I read in your book, there was a time when you saw a dog handler. Was it DevGrew that you saw the first time when it was like I was watching these guys work these dogs and it just sort of like, that's something I want to get into? We saw a demonstration when I was at Team 4. It was a very quick demonstration. Somebody put on a bite suit, one of our guys go run. Malinwall hits them and takes them down.

It always falls. Everybody laughs, ha ha, all right. But we were working. So like, cool, nice dog demonstration. And then we went back to work. And that was it, like no other conversations about it. But then when I get a dev group, first deployment, we're using the dog every night.

Every night. I'm like, okay, I like dogs. I saw at Team 4, if I made myself valuable, I don't have to get left behind. And I got to keep up with all of these guys. Like, if you're not bringing something to the table, you just, we don't. Can't use you. We go do something different.

Cool, we got guys that do. So I saw the value in the dogs. I love dogs. and that was it, I expressed interest, and I was like, cool, you're in. You grew up with dogs? I did. Yeah.

Pit bulls, Rottweilers, some small dogs, but no working dogs. No malawas. No malonlaws. That's a whole different level, right? It's like a velocir wrapper. Yeah, talk about, that's what I say, talk about high speed. Yeah. So let's go from, because, you know, there's gonna be a lot of people

that don't know as much about SEAL teams. So for you to go from Team 4, right, there's a process. You're going to green, going to selection, right? And so there was obviously buds that you had to go through to qualify for teaming up. And then, you know, you end up Team 4 and then this opportunity to select or to screen. You can ask. And if you, going through Buds is easier than that. Then Green?

Yes. Yeah. I'd go through Buds in a heartbeat. Talk about the difference between them. It's like Buds again for Seals. They already know you're not going to quit. Now it's all performance. Can you perform like literally the highest level?

Keep up at the best. when American hostages on the line. Was there any for moments, either at Team 4 or you screened for Dev, that you were, and by the way, Dev Group, we're talking about Steel Team 6 here, was there a time that you were like, kind of in awe of the men that you were around?

Every day. I remember as a rookie with the Rams, being in the sauna one time, and it was Torrey Holt, Orlando Pace, and Stephen Jackson. Talk about keeping your mouth shut, right? I was just trying to not, like, be invisible. and the things that I was picking out for them.

I mean, I get goosebumps right this second, dude, standing on there. Every day is like that, yep. That's cool. Exactly that. I miss that so much. That's like, the question, like, do I belong? I'm on the chopping block every day. Do I even belong in this?

Like, cool, let's see if I got it. See if I can keep up. Because these guys are, like, they're going to bring everything to the table. Is it just like being where you were? They're going to bring everything every day. If not. I mean, I saw it towards the end of my career.

I went away. Yeah. And it was not a good ending. Yeah. Well, we'll get to that for sure, man. Was there ever a time, either in training or in a live op, something that sticks out that was like, it's just comedy. I mean, I'm sure there was somebody that went down?

Was there anything that sticks out where you're like, man, no one would believe me if I told this story? I'll share one from my perspective in football. So we were playing the Green Bay Packers. They're on the one-yard line. They're about to punch it in. And right in the moment when Aaron Rogers comes up to the, to the center really quickly.

I look at my other linebacker and I say, hey, he's going to come inside. And right then he says, that's what she said is we all dive over the bucket. And I got out to the sideline, I look at my bro and I'm like, did you just, that's what she said when they said?

He's like, that was pretty good. You don't pass up those up. Yeah, no. I laid that alleyute for him. Was there anything to six out? Guys, they were just like,

or was there a guy that was like, he'll make me laugh and kind of like, on me. On the patrols end, you're on Night Vision working at night, there's always somebody that falls. And we work together so often that you know everybody on night vision by the back of their head.

So you're not going to get away with it. Somebody's always falling in shit ditches because that's what they have overseas. You slip and fall and everybody laughs him. Make sure he gets up. Like, okay. He's good. He's good.

He laughed at it. And you're not getting away with it. I know who you are. There's all kinds of comedic moments. Some of them are inappropriate. Maybe I don't know if this is family friendly. No, man. You're welcome to share.

I say one of the funniest ones that's not too bad is we were fast roping in. I had Cairo with me and there's this device that we use on the fast ropes that kind of help handlers fast rope with their dogs. Yeah. So at the top of the rope, I got a clip into this device and then I can let the dog go and I swing out with them and then I feed the rope. The device helps us descend safely from the helicopter. We're on the side of a mountain.

The helicopter's going up slowly. Since we're on the side of the mountain, I got the dog attached to me. I bring this device all the way down to the end of the rope. I try to unclip from it. It's flying away, so it's getting tighter and tighter. And Cairo's pulling me down the mountain because of the rotor wash. So he's pulling me this way. The bird's going this way, and I can't get my carabiner undone.

So it's like, all right, and I grab Cairo and I throw him up. And I run up the hill. I try to get it up, and my carabiner stuck. And then he's pulling down and he's going off. And about the third, fourth, fifth time, I'm getting exhausted. And this helicopter is going to take off. I'm like, I don't know if that crew chief sees me on this rope. but if he takes off and I'm still attached to this thing,

we're going to go for a ride. I got my dog. Maybe I cut him loose and he survives. And I don't know. I'm like, all I know is I'm getting pretty exhausted and I need to get away from this helicopter. And eventually, you know, threw him up and I barely got him, got it undone. Helicopter takes off and I'm laying there on the side of the mountain just exhausted.

And the opposite hasn't even started. Like, we just showed up, bro. We got a nice hike in. This is it. Gunfight hasn't even started yet. And I'm laying there. And then it comes up, my troop chief comes over the radio. you're like, hey, cheese, you're all right?

Everybody was on the ridge watching the shit show the whole time. I look over at them and everybody's there. I'm like, yeah, I'm good. Check. Let's go. Luckily, I'm in my 20s. Let's do this. I just need to shake it out.

Oh, man, that's crazy. I'm sure that, I mean, actually, that fits perfectly with where we're going. So, you know, you end up becoming a dog handler. And as that, you know, talk about, like, this is a responsibility that you literally take home with you, right? where other guys, they're just worried about themselves, their body. And you're talking about, like, Halo jumps with a dog. You're talking about fast roping with a dog.

You're talking about all of these different things. And obviously, the dog is an incredible tool in its nose is probably the highest form of its ultimate weapon. What for you was, was there moments? Like, how did Cairo do jumping? This is great. I got real lucky with Cairo. Okay.

So we have master at arms that will augment us at the command. They have to go through screening and all that stuff. But they're dog handlers, their master at arms. That's their specialty they've been around. I'm a shooter, I'm a seal. I've spent all these time with dogs. So the shooters would get the better performing dogs and the mastered arms would get, you know, there's a

hierarchy too. They would get the more problem. It's like you're a dog guy, you know how to fix, work this problem with this dog because you've been around dogs. Me, I'm just a shooter, like, I'm gonna ask you anyways. Like, I need to fix this dog. Plus I also need to operate. Like I'm an operator first.

If there's clearance that needs to be done, just because I have a dog, it's first. You better clear with a dog then or figure it out. then or figure it out. Dog guys don't really, I mean, they will. There's been plenty of dog guys that have shot people. They're up there, but it's not their primary role.

My primary role is I'm a seal, I'm an assulter, and I'm a dog guy second. So I was lucky with Cairo. I got, Cairo was a solid dog. Yeah. So talk about going into deployment and live operations with dogs, because in your book, one line

that just sticks with me big time was somebody that said, you know, raise your if a dog has saved your life and every single dude in that team room. Multiple stories. Yeah. So maybe speak to... I saw that on my first deploy. That's why I want to be a dog guy.

Yeah. And dog guys find the bad people. I like to shoot bad people. Like, cool, let me be up front. Yeah. Let me use that tool to go find the bad guys that need to be taken care of them. So you have dog before Cairo. Was it Falco?

I was on deployment. Okay. The first deployment. And Falco was one of our dogs on that deployment. Okay. When I expressed interest of being a dog guy, his handler who was a master at arms, Frank, a great guy. He wasn't going to be a handler anymore, so I'd be getting, he's going to turn over Falco to me. Right before we return home from that deployment, Falco paid the ultimate price.

And he saved somebody from getting injured, definitely, if not killed. Yeah. He didn't pull through. Yeah. He's tattooed on my arm. It sucks, but, man. Yeah. Talk about, because, I mean, you guys get the same honors to a fallen dog as you do,

100%. When Falco died, we had even the Rangers that we were on deployment with that time, they were just outstanding. We all came together and did a memorial service for him, just like we would one of us. At the command there's a memorial wall for the guys as you drive through the gate. It's a big memorial wall. All of the Fallen Brothers and here's the dogs. Special.

Right next to him. Would you, I don't know if this, this is probably a loaded question. I don't know if there's an answer to this, but is it, does it feel the same losing a seal versus losing your dog, is there a difference? I mean, maybe talk to what the difference is or what it's not. It hurts just as much. You just know it's a dog.

Still a member of the team. I mean, I've tattooed him on my arms. Yeah. But he's a dog. Right. That's what he's there to do, honestly. Yeah. Born and bred, trained, taught for this,

and yet, like, at some level, y'all took an oath, you know, consciously to where the dog was positioned because of its breed, because of his training, because of this otherwise. Is that a tough feeling when, you know, I mean, like, not that Malin Wals are always great house pets, right? But was there a difficulty in that of feeling like that dog didn't have a choice or? That's what they're bred to do.

That's all they want to do. I have people ask me that all the time. I'm like, that dog is bred. That's all he wants to do is work. Why deprive the dog of his job? And it's a human life. I love these dogs. We never put these dogs in harms away.

We always had their back. The team, even my team leaders were very clear. Like, you do not put that dog in a position unless you have to. We're not going to support him. Like, we're not sacrificing any of these dogs, period, unless somebody's about to die. Why take that away from that dog? Let that dog work. And it sucks when they die, but he just saved a human life.

Let him do his job and save lives. Right. It still sucks. Yeah. Is it the same as losing one of my teammates? I mean, it is losing one of my teammates. It's not a human life, but we still... It's a dog, right?

But I love him just as much as everybody else. I mean, that dog is in, you know, they're sleeping with you. They're doing everything with you. I think how much you love your dog at home. Now, take that dog to war and have him to save your life. Like, where your bond is like... It's powerful, man. So, let's talk about meeting Cairo.

So Falco's, you know, no longer with you. You're coming back to find what now is going to be your dog. And so talk about that process. Because the attrition in the dog selection is just as serious as, seal training they go through a doggy selection yeah all the support personnel that can help us they go through a selection it's also interesting like again like that dog was trained kaira was trained prior to meeting you so we go overseas and get them it's like a sport over in europe yeah that's one of their hobbies and they take them to trials and then they can sell the dogs so they raise them until

they're two three and then they'll take them to these trials and they score in these trials and the better they do in the trials the more money you can sell them for and it's that's their hobby so they get a new group of dogs and they'll take them trials we'll go overseas on buy trips and we'll just assess all the dogs, pick up 30, whatever, how many dogs, bring them back, and then hopefully those 30 or 20, whatever, make it through selection. All malinwas? Or is there some Dutch Shepherds too? Yeah.

Those are the two main breeds. Small enough, agile, nimble, smart. You give me 120-pound German Shepherd that's got long hair. Like, great for law enforcement. Yeah, perfect. Put that thing in the back of a cop car. And when he needs to go in the house, nice and, yeah. But I'm faster open with this thing.

I need a little pocket rocket where I can, like, let's climb up this roof, give me my dog, and let that little Velociraptor go in the house. There's nothing wrong with the shepherds. Plus it's so hot when we're operating. Like, shorter hair helps, more agile. Yep. So is there ever a time where they'll use, you know,

male dogs versus female dogs, or does it gender specific, doesn't matter? Mostly males. We had a couple of females. Yeah, interesting. I remember we had a bloodhound, our old dog, and we got him from the Seattle Police Department when I was playing for the Seahawks.

And the Seattle Police Department only uses the females because they're a little smaller, a little more compassionate, I guess, and they live longer also. So I think that was the why behind that. But, yeah, I was curious if there was a, you know, a pro or con in any aspect based around gender of the dog. Females can be a little more chill, but not all the time.

We had a couple of females that keep up. We know the type. We're great dogs. So let's talk about meeting Cairo. You meet Cairo. Cairo actually wasn't the dog that stood out the most right away. There was two. It was Cairo and Bronco.

So I'm a shooter. I show up, get back from that deployment, and I just immersed myself into the dog world. They had come back from a trip where they bought a bunch of dogs. I'm just sitting there watching the 20 dogs, maybe, I think. I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm just looking at the dogs and like, yeah.

I mean, I've seen a little bit on deployment. I saw them work a little bit, but I really know what I'm talking about? No. But the two that stuck out were Bronco and Cairo. Bronco was a little more friendly. Like, when Cairo came out of the trailer, he was all locked on.

And Bronco was, too, but he'd let you pet him a little more. They're same. And every person's different, every dog's different. So there's on the handlers and the trainers there to evaluate you and evaluate all the dogs and then make that match. And I remember they said, you're going to get Cairo. And I'm like, cool, that's fine with me. I really didn't care either way. And it was a very good match because Cairo was shot overseas, ended up working Bronco for the rest of that deployment.

It wasn't as good. And that's all on me. Like, I take full responsibility, but my personality didn't match up with his. Got it. It wasn't, we did fine, but it wasn't. Like me and Cairo, me and Cairo was solid. So Cairo good shot, goes back, you're unsure. Were you unsure if he was going to live,

or was it one of those situations where the wound you thought he was maybe going to end up continuing to work? In the beginning, I thought he was dead. So we, on our deployment, kind of the same scenario we always see. We were chasing four bad guys, two mopads, two guys on each, and they were loaded down. We weren't allowed to engage, so we followed them. They split.

We followed one group of guys and they made it to a tree line in the middle and over. It's all open and they found this one pile of trees. We land a safe distance away and we make our way up to the tree line. They're a bad guy, so we were trying to get them to come out. They're not listening, of course. They're just getting set up in there and eventually we did escalation of force that we call it, trying to convince them to come out. Finally, one of the calls made to send Cairo in,

because that's our next step, send him in. And the tree line was pretty thick vegetation. I lost him. I lost him in the tree line. I see him working. He's gone. So all it did was, he said, the dog's nose is his biggest tool, right?

So I'm trying to position him to where he can best use that and follow the wind. And I started making him away. So I sent him off on the right, started making him away down the line. So there's a little low wall, right, when we got to the tree line, just a rock low wall. And all the guys were pretty much behind that.

So I'm making my way. It wasn't very high, so I'm trying to stay down as much as I can and watch Cairo and make my way down. I lost him. As I'm making my way down the line, I just hear distinct AK rounds. I'm like, shit, I know what's happening here. I mean, there's only two bad guys out there. We don't have AKs. Somebody's shooting at my dog right now, or one of us, but probably my dog. He's on something. He was moving. So I tried to recall him out, get him back to me. And Cairo, like I said, he was real solid. He listened very well. So it seemed like forever, probably, you know, 30 seconds. He's not coming back. Wasn't a good feeling. He listens well.

I'm calling him back for 30 seconds and I don't see nothing. Like, that's not a good sign. Still working it, working it. And then finally, really would seem like an eternity. So I said there was a low wall. Here's the trees, low wall. And I think it had went all the way down to the left and still went down a little ways.

he had been shot through his chest and his leg. I don't think he could hop over that wall or something happened. I think he had to make his way all the way around and find a break or something that was taking so long. But he was shot twice, so it took him a minute to whatever, get over the wall, or find where I'm at. But finally he makes his way around. I see him coming down towards the end, and he's not moving fast.

He's kind of moving so on. I'm like, oh, there he is. And then I started making my way over and he collapses. I'm like, oh, no. If anybody doesn't know what a Malinwall is, they don't collapse. they're like a velociraptor on cocaine. They are a million miles an hour. To see him fall over like that,

I immediately, he's dead. They don't do that unless you're really hurt. There's two guys in the tree line. I got 15, 20 of some of the baddest guys in the planet dealing with two guys. Normally you go stop the firefight. Yeah. You knew they had it.

You got it. You got these two turds. It's the only tree line. So I made my way over to Cairo. And he was still breathing. Make the caller of the radio. He's hit. And it was really cool, man.

It's he, like, it's a dog. But to me, it's my teammate. It hurt. He's dead. Harts really bad. Like, oh, crush me. And then no emotions. It was weird.

Even looking back on it, I think it's just a weird thing. I love that dog. He's dead. It crushed me. And then all of a sudden, I have no emotion. It was almost like, yeah, he's dead. It was kind of like a, good. Not in a good way that he's dead. It's like, it's just no more, let's go deal with the

problem kind of thing. Like they say they tell you like if your buddy, your best friend gets shot in the doorway, what are you going to do? Reach down and help him and then you're just going to get you need to stop the threat. So that's, I guess, what I did. I emotionally shut everything off. Was that the first time in deployment that you felt that shift? Yes. Truly. Yeah. I never had to deal with any of my friends getting shot. Thank God. It was cool. Just turned it off for a second. And then once I saw that I wasn't needed, I made my way over to him. And it was really cool to see, we've been deploying to see us operated at high speed. It's really cool to see. But seeing this was like, it's not one of us going down. It's a dog, but it's one of us going down, right?

That bad of a situation to all the training that we had done just to all come together and pay off. So I get to him. He's still breathing, make the call. I had a medical kit, blowout kit specifically for him. I had one for me, one for him. I pulled out his. As I'm doing all this, one of the other guys, he was a medic. He knew that he wasn't needed on the line anymore either. He heard that Cairo was down, didn't have to ask him. He immediately comes back, help Cairo out.

And it was flawless, man. I throw him the medical kit as I'm taking off his vest. And I literally, as I'm putting on his muzzle, he's already had, he's hand deep in Cairo's chest. And Cairo's trying to bite him. He's not like that. It is what it is. You're stuffing your fingers inside.

dog he's in a wince in pain but it's perfect time and as i'm sliding it on he's stuffing that wound while we're working on him literally the headsheds calling in the bird to come pick him up the pilots didn't have to risk their life sure it wasn't a huge gunfight but you're still putting it on the line for a dog they did immediately flawless they treated just like what are you guys being it was flawless like literally i am stopping him for biting you you're getting him stable as i'm picking him up the bird is literally landing and i step onto the bird and we're off I was like, oh, wow, that worked out. It worked out really good.

And he ended up surviving. I thought he was dead. And then ends up being able to come back, which is even crazier. So they'd put some hardware in his leg, assuming. A metal plate in his leg, fixed up his chest. We get back. The surgeons at the base we were at worked on him. We didn't have a vet staff.

This is what? 2008, 9, something like that? 2009, I think. Okay. The surgeons, you didn't have to work on a dog, but they treated him just like a soldier. Cut him stable, flew him to bath. He looked bad. I didn't think he was going to make it.

He literally laid with him on the floor the whole night just because I thought he was going to die in the whole night. Might as well just lay there with him. Wake up in the morning, he was moving a little slow, but he was alive. We got him outside, like really slow outside to pee. The next day after that, like they took all the tubes out. He's wearing sunglasses, wagging his tail. And it's like, man, how did you?

You got shot twice with an AK. And two days later, you're full Malin-Wall. Savage. It's crazy. Crazy. That's, yeah, that's another level of, like, coach put me back in the game. So he sent him to Lackland. People did there, did a great job, rehabbed him, and that was before the big mission.

So he bounced back. Yeah. 100%. Okay, so let's talk about the big mission. I think people that most of us have probably seen zero dark 30 and then realize the most famous op in Special Operations history. Zero dark 30. Yeah.

Yeah. This is funny. This is sound weird to, yeah. Let's just start from that point. Like, what was misrepresented in the movie compared to what really happens? It's been a while since I've seen it. Where were you first when you get the call? Because although you're part of Steel Team 6, right?

Like, you weren't necessarily in Virginia and you weren't necessarily training at the time. So what were you doing when you get this phone call saying, hey, we need you? We just got back from deployment not too long ago. And then I was at a school, free fall jump master school in Arizona, middle of nowhere, Arizona. Wasn't going to be the best school. It was going to be a little boring maybe. Not my optimal school. It's not racing Corvette somewhere, right?

Okay, but I'm not complaining. It's a personal development. It's a very important school. But at least I was there with my buddy Nick, my best friend, Nick Check. I was like, okay. Even if I got to be here, we're going to learn a little bit of stuff. I got my boy. Like, we're going to have some fun.

So we're hanging out at the school like two days in. And I get a call from my team leader at the time. And he's like, I got you a flight, pack your stuff. year on a whatever, you have three, four hours to get out of there and get on this flight. I'm like, all right, cool. I'm in my 20s. Fairly normal thing, though, to get a call like that. All the time.

It's a little weird, but it's fine. We're always doing it. Was his tone, anything like telling him? No, it's just normal. I get your stuff and come into the beach. We got something. Like, cool, we always have something. So I go back to the classroom and I see my buddy Nick.

And Nick was awesome, man. He was a way better operator than me. Like, no doubt about it. I go into the classroom. I'm like, hey, man, we're getting called back to Virginia. And he's like, not me. I didn't get to call. I'm like, huh, this is weird.

Like, why would they call me and not call you? Doesn't matter to me. Fuck you. I'm going, baby. Enjoy Arizona. Yeah, this is going to suck for you, bro. Have fun here by yourself. I'm out.

I'm going to go do some fun, cool shit. Little I didn't know what we're going to go do. But it didn't matter. But it was just a good chance for me to give him some shit because I love him. So it was pretty funny. I'm like, man, you're a better operator than me. This is weird. They're not calling me.

Have fun, dickhead. That's great, dude. But the next day, you know, it was just, I think we were the only two seals there. There's a wide variety of different branches and stuff. Everybody else in the class is like, hey, where's your seal friend? And when I was like, yeah, he quit.

Classic. So jokes on me. Yeah. Yeah. So we get recalled from that, show back up to Virginia. Things were a little different. It was just a little more quiet than I was used to. Heightened sense of things.

Yeah, it was just different. There's only a certain group of guys that were going. And then we're just trying to keep it very quiet. Sort of like in NFL, there's Pro Bowl guys, and then there's all pro guys. And the difference, the margin between elites and the NFL is small. But then there's those world-beater guys. I'm assuming the room was full of those guys. There was a select.

Not everybody could go. So there's people that were selected. And the only reason I was selected was because of Cairo. That's it. I wouldn't have gone if it wasn't for that for him. Yeah. So they dropped the intel on you. It took a while.

Yeah. But like I said, I'm in 25. I don't care what we're doing. Like, I'm with my family, doing the job that I love. I care a little bit. Like, what are we doing? But I don't care what we're doing. Like, I'm with my boys.

Let's go do something. I don't know, whatever we're going to do. We're going to have some fun. And then it's, they slow rolled us into some, it was kind of vague at first. And then eventually they told us like, okay, this is who we're going after. I'm like, oh, okay. But never get my whole. I hope so.

We had... Had there been times in the past that you'd got in some Intel and... We were always, something's happening, like, oh, we're going to get excited for this, and then up and down, up and down. And so then they did this. So I got to be a part of the Captain Phillips thing. I got to jump in. Didn't do anything crazy.

You got to be there. I didn't believe we were actually going to do it until the ramp opened on the airplane and we were about to jump out. We just don't really believe it's going to happen until, like, oh, the ramp's opening? Like, okay, I guess we're going to go. I guess we're going to go. Here we go, and it happened. Same thing with that. I'm like, okay, the intelligence people did a very good job.

Like, I actually felt bad for them. So what are you going to do now that this is over? Like, y'all dedicated your entire life to this. Like, we dedicate our entire life to our job, too, but we have all kinds of bad people. Yeah. Y'all have just done this for how long? And like, what are you going to do after?

Their intel was solid. Yeah. So we made sure our wills were filled out because we've had problems with guys. thinking they're funny and then they pass away and their wills aren't. Their wife doesn't want to read. What was your first thought when they said this is Osama bin Laden? Cool. Perfect. I hope. Let's go do it. Awesome.

Was there a heightened like, maybe I'm not coming home from this one? Well, that's what we're getting at. So make sure your will was filled out properly and maxed out your life insurance policy. And nobody ever said that before. And we were always deploying and doing very dangerous stuff. This one was mandatory. Your will is 100% done proper. no funny jokes and max out your life insurance. And anybody could have stepped off. I think we did have one guy. Step down to it.

He doesn't have to go. Family kids, something. Something happened. No, you didn't have to go at all. But if you're going to go max out your stuff, we'd seen so many suicide vests. One of my teammates, I was talking with him once about a suicide vest

that almost killed him, and he had forgotten about it. I was like, how did you forget? almost dying. You've seen so many S-FES. You forgot about almost dying. We've been in a couple of HBIDs. That's where the whole house is rigged to explode. Been inside one and luckily our great leadership was smart enough not to go to another one and shot it with rockets until it exploded. Like almost killed my buddy Nick and we got back from that mission and he's like, dude, I saw this huge boulder fly between me. I'm like, he almost died. So we figured we'd see something. Like something's going to blow up.

or we're going to get shot down on the way home. Look where we're going. Like something's probably going to happen. Yeah. So where does extortion come in with just the timeline? So we did the big mission. We successfully completed it. Okay.

We killed him, brought him home. That was the height of my career, man. I used to think that I wish it would have died after that. Just ended on a good note. after that extortion happened extortion 17 we lost 31 Americans we lost a lot of team guys a lot of in special operations community it was a helicopter crash in afghanistan that killed a bunch of you guys so that happened that was a huge hit and then my buddy nick died so it's like fuck so let's go back though we're uh we're getting the intel you guys are prime and prep

right so you're training you're you basically gather everything in virginia and then step down to where were you guys preparing for we had a couple different places we were preparing okay what uh what was there a specific like desert like scenario that you guys were mocking up that was similar to what you were going to kind of entail over there we saw a little bit of a mock up they had his train on but at the end of the day you can't overthink it like I don't want to know the inside of the layout of the house that you think we're going to go into I want to know the outside where the access points are. But it's like trying to learn the whole layout.

There's a couch here. There's a fridge. I'm like, I need to make this. I'm like, no. We train so much that it's kind of pick up basketball. You flow this way, I flow that way. And it just, there's no overthinking it. It just works.

So we had a couple of scenarios that we would do rehearsals and walkthroughs. But at the end of the day, we just needed a lay out of the compound, how we're going to get there. And then everything on the inside just flows. We flow off each other. So we did a lot of training. I'd say, yeah, how many reps? Well, now when we did, we over-trained.

You guys are starting to make it jokes out of it. So compounds built to spec, right, of what they have from the Intel. You guys are reps, reps, reps, reps. We over did it. And it's funny because- Give me an idea. Give me a guessimation. I have no idea.

It was to the point of everybody was getting tinnitus in their elbows were fast-roping so much. Like, all right, like, we just got back from deployment. We're good. We've gone over every single contingency. And guess what happened when we showed up, the one contingency we didn't plan for happened. So speak to that man tell us the movie got that part right

I honestly don't remember the movie so I remember the movie it was terrible I don't know about the intelligence side maybe they did a good job for that but I remember my part or whatever they showed up and they handed him the dog and it's like you're going on a mission I'm like that's not how it happened at all we condense things in Hollywood a little bit yeah right so that was the first time I watched it and I was like well I'll never watch it again and then I remember Chris Pratt was in it and my buddy is very good friends with him I've got to meet him and I'm he's a very good guy.

My buddy vouches for him, and he seems like, oh, Chris is in it. I'll watch it again. I'll never watch it again. We're done with it. But I can't speak for the intelligence side. They might have done a very good job there.

So when we get to the compound, one of the helicopters lost lift, the one that was above. Hold on. So first, you guys take off from Virginia. Is that where you send out from? Then I'll go back. I'm on the same couch I was in Afghanistan,

a month before on deployment. Trying to sleep on the same couch, just seeing if this is going to happen. I don't know. And then it does. We're in Afghanistan, and we load up the birds, do our planning.

Yep. So it's nighttime. They're all jocked up. Just like every other night. It's kind of same. Was there a point? Did anyone, because I've heard mixed sides of this.

In the movie, there's a moment where somebody on the bird says, everybody's been in a helo crash. Everyone's like, acknowledge. just like, yep, up, yep, yep. And I was like, all right, cool. And then it ended up.

You guys had to make a control landing, which is a, aka a control crash. So talk about being on the bird, man. Like, what are your nerves like? Did it feel? Like any other night? Okay. I was trying to sleep.

Same thing. I had my iPod listening to music, trying to fall asleep. What did you have on the headphones? Everything, rock, country, a little rap, everything. But on the way in, the last song was the ACDC, Money Talks, That was a good little pick-me-up on the last, you know, whatever, five minutes out. I'm like, oh, hey, this will do it.

And then, you know, a minute out, I'm like, all right, like, put it all the way. Yeah, all right, get back into it, focus. But other than that, I was sleeping. And then looking at Rob, Rob O'Neill's stupid ass, sitting there across from me, got to look at you the whole time. Perfect. What was, which bird were you on? I was never on a helicopter crash.

Okay. So I was on the one that landed outside the compound. Got it. Did a couple laps around the compound looking for, escape tunnel. explosives, things like that. The other bird lost lift when they were supposed to faster up into the compound. Those TF 160th pilots, man, there are...

Legit. Yeah, it's all there, legit. Yeah. Soft lands into the courtyard. We breached this one door. It was walled in, so there's your things that we always... Well, that's a good sign. Yep.

But now we're flexing to the other gate. By the time they could blow it, though, it actually worked out for our favor. Instead of crashing, soft lands, guys, jump out once the helicopter, please stop turning and open up the main gate blew this one didn't work about to blow this one like no come on in so it actually worked out into our favor got you right here fellas got you come on in we got it how many total seals 23 so not only did the tf pilot save us save that he was like i'll fly this thing out of here

and i believe him obviously it didn't have yeah yeah but those guys are legit yeah they got pair on them dude yeah i'll fly with him anywhere any day yeah okay so entries made right you've swept the out exterior talk about because the again i'm going to pull some some numbers but it it stated that the entire operation was 45 minutes we're ahead of being in and out quick we're in pakistan and people are going to try to kill us yeah they know we're here at this point the crash especially the bird going down like it was well signal people were looking so once you guys make entry right are you you're hearing the comms and the guys that are clearing the house and you're with Cairo. So when you and Cairo enter the building, what are you hearing or what are you seeing?

Other than I just did sweep something else. I didn't even know the helicopter was down until we saw it. We came across on our second sweep and saw the tail sitting over the edge. We're like, huh, looks like our helicopter, but I didn't hear anybody over the radio saying people are down or anything. Like, so it was concerning, but nobody's saying somebody's dead over the radio. So I'm like, okay, everybody's cool. And sure, we got inside. And so I did a couple sweeps once I was inside, same thing. Looking for explosives with Cairo, a bunch of broken glass, some dead bodies, trying to keep him away from the bodies and the glass. I'm trying to keep him fixed onto explosive odor.

Once they start biting people, they don't want to deal with explosives. They want to bite people, right? So just trying to work him, looking for explosives. We've seen lots of explosives overseas, so that was my main focus. Make sure the house isn't rigged. Something. So then that happens, making my way to the second floor. Did the first floor, make my way to the second.

I see Rob walk into the room, and he was, I think I just shot that motherfucker in the face. I look at him, I'm like, hmm, we're busy working. Like, I can't. It was like, cool, noted. And I'm working Cairo, and then it comes over the radio. The call sign was Geronimo. That means it was successful. Bin Laden was dead or captured.

And they're not going to put that out over the radio unless they are 100% sure. Like, that's not coming out unless it's, wow, solid. So I was like, oh, once they came out, we knew it was done. I looked at Rob, and that was the first high-five I ever gave on Target. It feels weird even saying now. If there's any time I was going to give it. Yeah, I looked at him.

I think I just shot that motherfucker in the face. I'm like, all right, cool, we'll see what happens. Watching Cairo, watching Cairo, it comes over the radio. Look at him, he looks at me. I'm like, okay, back to work. Like, it's done. We could have died. I mean, not that anybody wanted to die, but at least we knew it was done.

Like, the mission was complete. So you guys get his body, get it on the bird, getting out. So did they have to end up bringing another helicopter to be able to get everybody back? Brought in another helicopter, picked us up. It's ready. Grabbed as much stuff as we could. Grab the body.

And we got back. And blew the bird that had crashed. Just blew the whole thing. Yep. And you're flying back. Are guys talking? Is there... I have Cairo in my lap.

It's loud. Did it feel normal? It was good. I'm just happy we completed the mission. But I'm also like, okay, we're going to get shot down. We have a long trip to get back to base. And actually, on the ride back, I think I remember somebody coming over the radio saying Pakistan just scrambled their jets.

I'm like, oh, cool, perfect. Just waiting for some fighters to come down on you? See, if we end up into a fireball. Was there a timeline where you're leaving the compound, you're on the birds, and you're looking at your watch, thinking about the time clicks to get there where every single second that passes feels like you're closer to safety? Yeah, I was just holding Cairo trying to sleep. I'm just happy, man.

I don't know. I mean, what do you want me to do? We killed him. I'm with my boys. I got my dog on my lap. It's good as it gets. I mean, it's God's plan. Like, I literally have no, what do you want me to do?

I'm just going to... So what did you have on the iPod then? So me and Falco, is a dog that we lost in my first deployment. I used to always listen to it. It's a great day to be alive by Travis Tritt. So we'd go operate, do some good stuff. Then they'd come back. It was a good night.

Maybe the sun's up. I sit there with the dog. It's a great day to be alive. That was mine in Falco's jam. And then when he died, couldn't listen to it. And then on the way back, it came on. And I was like, okay, this is pretty fitting now, man. Wow.

Yeah, it's interesting to think about me. Your work is done at night, right? Not 90% of the time? Yeah. You know? I mean, so you're hunting bad guys at night. And so that understanding the work day ends lots of times as the sun's coming up. That's really interesting.

Yep. So you get back to the hangar, right, base. This is the fob that was obviously fairly close if you guys made it back so quick. what ensues then when you guys touch down and the body's with you and what happens? There's a lot of stuff I forget these days I was injured by the hangar need. I'm sure we'll discuss that. So I'll get the brain stuff going on. That's a moment I'll never forget for sure getting off the helicopter and walking back inside the hangar.

I just remember I was looking around seeing everybody's alive. Like he's dead too. Like we did it. I see the body bag right there and I look around and everybody's like. We had some guys to get some shrapnel. Like there was gun fights and there was. resistance on target and there was some very very heroic stuff that happened really really um but everybody was live sure guys had shrapnel in them and they got in gunfights but that was a normal night and

i'm not downplaying it but everybody was alive little shrapnel in them yeah it's like fine i'm good i'll take that shrapnel yeah especially after we just killed the dudes that we've been hunting for what the last 15 years yeah so i remember getting off the bird walking into the hangar looking around and everybody's like wow man we did it cool and then afterwards turn over whatever we needed to turn over to the people that do whatever they do you know what I'm saying agency folk whatever they don't know those people they look different I don't know them the nerds so we gave them some stuff and then um they set up chairs for us and they brought in a TV so we did all of our important stuff turnover yeah and then we did a debrief after that they

had some food for us and then we got to sit down and I'm literally sitting by all the dudes that we just did this mission watching the president addressed the state the united states what just happened and there's his canoeed head right over there his body that was a that was a pretty good feeling dude that was a good one that is as good as it gets man it was cool to see america to come together his body's sitting right there as obama addresses the nation it was a great feeling and you see everybody get all excited and you see america come together like 9-11 that brought us in like whoa all that for a split second again. I'm like, why couldn't that have just lasted?

Yeah. That was pretty disappointing. It just didn't last as long. But it was cool to see everybody come together again. Like America came together. I'm like, fuck yes. Look at this. It just fizzled out too quick, man.

Anything about that specific op? I know you said, you know, perhaps that was as good as it was going to get in your experience in the SEAL teams. But anything that, you know, back to the heroics. in the house or, you know, I know memory is foggy at this point, but, but are any other things that stick out that, like, I remember this moment and I knew we were on point or any other confirmation, God wink, kind of that, like, intuitive God stuff where you're like, man, looking back on it, it all seems very surreal. Anything that sticks out? Some of the actions on the guys on target were very heroic. There's a guy that was downstairs.

I forget even who he killed, but he has a gunfight. The woman in there, the dude was fighting back, putting bullets through the door. That's where he got his shrap him from. He killed him by shooting back through the door. You know, some very heroic stuff, took care of him. When the guys got to the third floor, Bin Laden died like a coward. He sent out women in front of him. We thought they were going to explode.

The person that was up there at the top of the stairs grabs these two women and throws himself into a corner. He was just waiting for that. fireball, that explosion, whatever that feeling is, which I felt when I was in that house that was rigged to explode and we're all running outside of it, it's a weird feeling. Like, what is it going to feel like? Is it going to be fire? Is it going to be nothing? So he's like, I had that feeling. He's like, I grabbed those chicks and I just try to keep him away from everybody and I was just waiting to blow up. Some very, very heroic stuff. And he'll never talk about it, ever. Like, only reason I get away with it is because I tell Cairo's story. Yeah, which is really cool. I love that

You talk about the book as Cairo's book. I don't know anything to deal with it. Yeah. I just had to. And I know you're being honest when you say that. It's not about what I did. I really didn't do anything. I babysat Cairo and a bunch of pipe-hitting motherfuckers crushed it.

Like, you know what I mean? I was there. Yeah. It was great to be a part of. But am I anybody special? No. It was a team. It's called a school team for a reason, man.

I can't take credit for, I'm a fake if I do. Wow. That says a lot about your character, man, your spirit. It is what it is. The type of teammate that you are. Well, man. That's Delta Force. That's Chuck Norse stuff, man.

That's all. Yeah. Well, you lived it, man. I mean, it's incredible to me. Was there anything that you wore that op or things you still have or things that they took? Was it, did I read that Cairo's vest is in the 9-11 museum? They sent it back. It was there for a while.

Okay. I guess they closed the exhibit or... So you have... I have it back now. I got his vest. That's pretty special. graduated Green Team to get to Dev Group, I bought myself a Rolex Samariner. Nice.

Engraved our squadron emblem on the back. I never wore it on any deployments. I brought it on deployments. I never wore it on any mission. I brought it on all my deployments. I wore it on the Bin Laden mission because we really didn't think we were going to make it back. Yeah, if there's ever in time. Let's just go ahead and wear this this time.

Hey, why not? So I did wear that. Maybe it was a good luck charm. Maybe it was a good luck charm. You wore it sense? Yeah. I actually should have worn it today. Sometimes I forget.

Yeah. All right. So you've completed the most famous op in history. We've killed Osama bin Laden. What now? Go back to work? What now? Yeah.

What do they tell me to do? That's it. Yeah. So let's talk about sort of the timeline that ensues after this, you know, incredible operation. So after this, get back to work. We're on a trip. I think we're in Florida. It was a pretty fun trip.

and get a text message from my leadership with a long list of names. It was from extortion. Didn't say what happened. I just saw the list of names and I knew. My heart sank. You just know what's going on. So we deal with that.

Lots of funerals. Just a real bad time. Get through that process. Knew just about everybody on that list. I need a few guys. I didn't know everybody, but... It's a good guy to call those guys. Yeah.

My kids after name. I named after one of the guys I was on the bird, like, solid people. Since that happened, lost a lot of guys. We needed to fill in for the guys we lost. So my buddy Nick, he went over to that squadron, fill in for them. A little while they're on deployment,

American hostage got taken. It's a doctor. Nick went to go save that American hostage, and he was shot in the head during it. They showed up to the compound. There was a century outside the door, Nick engages. Guy goes inside.

I mean, Nick knew exactly they're bad guys. They know what's going on. These guys are here to fight. Nick didn't hesitate. Engage the guy at the door and ran right through first man through the door. He ended up getting caught up in a blanket and he got shot in the head. Didn't make it. So that happened, 2011-12.

That one rocked you. That one definitely got me. I got a lot of guys. My hair started falling out. I wasn't dating the most, it wasn't the best relationship at the time. I woke up on the couch one morning and I had a huge bald spot.

I thought it, did my hair falling out? And I thought the person I was dating at the time shaved my head in my sleep. Wasn't the best quality relationship, let's just say. That was your first thought. That's where we're at. Perfect. Awesome. Real good life choices there, bud.

Go over to my friend's house and his wife's like, no, that's not what that. I actually texted him like, do you shave me in my head in my sleep? She laughs. Like, ha, ha, ha, my hair's falling out. Like, it was just my body attacking itself. So his wife's like, it's either alopecia, it's alopecia. So I go to the doctor, I'm like, stress, right?

I'm stress. Like, what's alopecia of the doc? Like, it's hereditary, it's stress-induced. Extortion happens. Big chunks fall out. It grows back. I rock the comb over for a while. Just shave it.

And then a little bit of time goes back. It goes by. My hair goes back. And then Nick passes away. same thing. Just big chunks falling out. But I go into the team room and I'm like, hey, anybody, uh, anybody's seen this? And everybody's like, oh yeah, it's alopecia. I got it in my beard. Everybody, everybody had into my beard. Everybody, all of the beard. Let's Just keep going. Everybody's here. We all got this.

So it's nothing different. But looking back on it now, it's like, hey, bro, your hair fell out twice. My fingernails had fallen out. Like, didn't fall out completely. Just real brittle.

It was nothing but flakes. And it hurt every single thing I touched for years. I don't know how long it last. It was a good one. Every time I grabbed something, it was pain. It wasn't bad pain, but it wasn't fun.

It was just annoying. Like a nerve pain? Yeah. Yeah. And my fingernails were just gone. There was nothing but flakes. I'm like, okay, that's different. So every time you touch it,

it's hurt. every time I grade. So my hair fell out, my fingernails fell out. Looking back on it now, it's like, hey, man, your fucking hair's falling out. You're falling apart. The wheels are coming off, man. And I'm just like, cool. Pound another monster. Everybody laughs at my bald spot. Cool, shave that shit off and let's go. Let's go deploy. It took a lot to get here. I'm not getting off this train until the wheels fall off on the wheels. They fell off. Lots of drinking issues. I always like to drink and have a good time before, but especially after extortion, it just...

It's different. Every night drinking myself to sleep and looking at pictures with my friends. Seen if I can kill a gallon of vodka a night. Yeah, just feeding the demons. Yep. So drinking too much, eventually caught up with me. I went to rehab for a little bit. Started to bounce back.

It paid my penance. Went on my deployment. I no longer was a dog handler. been a lot admission that was my last op so try to get back on my feet a little bit and then show up do my first op with my team i had to go do some other work training guys for a little bit it wasn't really deployment and it was a deployment but it wasn't kicking indoors it was training quick question to do something like try to get the substance abuse under wraps like is that something being active in seal teams or guys sometimes have to do just yeah yeah i mean i figure with the amount

of stress and then you know nature of the job itself like sometimes just like hey we're let's get you right before we can get you back out. It happens. Yeah. So did that, train those guys, and finally I got called with the other guys to come, be an operator again. Yeah. Start operating.

And first off back, I got hit with a hand grenade. And that was my last stop ever. Talk about what went down, both kind of what you were doing, how you got hit, and sort of what ensued after the grenade blast. So we get to the target. We knew that they knew that we were there. through different modalities that we were able to hear that they see us supposedly cool home wasn't the optimal time to be going out there was pretty high a loom but we were there

and it was fine make it work we made it to the main compound and my boss told me to grab my buddy in the ladder and go over to the next building over get on top of the roof and hold security up there so here's the building and I'm get my back up against the building and there's like a walkway and then trees, maybe a little ditch, tree ditch is pretty really common. A little bit of a walkway here and then after that just open field. So when my boss told me that, I just kind of sucked up against the side of the building. I was waiting for my buddy Joey, help him with ladder. We'll go swim buddy him over there.

We'll go climb the roof. And as I'm sucked up, I'm just waiting. I don't want to bump anybody. Just get out of the way. Let guys pass by. One of the guys passing by stops and he starts shooting straight up. It's like, okay, well, I know we're here now. Wait for him to stop shooting.

I don't want to bump him. As soon as he was done shooting, I just peeled off, jumped through the trees, out into the open field to get a better angle. And I'm like, all right, here we go. I didn't have a dog anymore. I'm an assaultor again. Like, let's go, let's get, like, there's some bad guys in here. Just poke your head up. Just let me see it. And then as I'm waiting, it gets fuzzy from there. I thought I heard glass breaking, maybe people were shooting. Just the grenade went off behind me. They must have just threw it out the second floor. The ground was a little soft. a little muddy, so I'm thankful for that.

Didn't roll it toward you. Could have been where I think it absorbed a little bit of it. But it rocked me. It didn't knock me out, but I fell forward on my hands and knees. And like I said, everything gets a little fuzzy from there. Pretty dazed. Pretty days. I thought I'd gotten up off my hands and started engaging into the second story.

But looking back, once we got back to the compound, I was looking at some footage and didn't look like I took any shots. So it's like I'm thinking I'm doing something and I'm not doing something. So as I'm in the field here, I'm looking at the building that we're just getting engaged from, and I just take a right turn, and I just walk off into the open field, and I'm still not behind any cover. I just kind of like wander over here. Rounds are coming. They're in a gunfight. There's bad guys on the second floor trying to kill us, and he's got us through a grenade.

And I just walk over to the corner, and I kind of come to it, and I'm like, what am I doing? Like, I can still get shot. So I go over to the side of the building. I didn't want to say anything. It's like, I'm hit. I'm like, dang it, I get hit. It felt like somebody hit me in the lower back with a baseball bat. Like, I was definitely hit.

It knocked me forward all on the ground. I'm like, dang it. It got me. I didn't know how bad. I was bleeding from my face, which really made me nervous. Because I felt like somebody hit me in the lower back with a bat. So I obviously got the force from behind. Why is my face bleeding?

Did shrapnel go through my head? I was just waiting for the lights to go out. I was like, waiting to get woozy. You get quiet or anything? I just didn't say much. I'm like, God, dang it. Like, how bad am I hit? So I walk over to the side,

and I didn't want to say anything. And one of my team leaders is a great guy. He's like, I'm hit. I'm like, all right. If he says he's hit, like, I'm hit too. You said it first. You said it. At least if he said, I'm hit too.

And I said, I'm hit. So luckily, I got a big ass. I took two forced gump wounds was the main brunt. My ass absorbed most of the explosion. I took it through and through in my hand. I didn't even know about this until after circling. And in my face, kept having the guy. I'm like, look at me.

Like, what is this? Must have just been looking over to the right and the grenade went off. It hit me in the face. It swallowed my eye pretty much shut, and it just hit me here, and it stopped all the way out here. So thank God, I was leaning forward just an inch. It would have hit me in the temple. Dang.

Or I lost my eyesight or something, but it just barely missed hit here and stopped here. So I was like, are you sure I'm good? Like, I'm not going to bleed out. He's like, bro, you're fine. Like, it's just a superficial face. I'm like, right, are you sure? Yeah, check again. I was rocked.

Like, it was in the worst place, but I'm like, man, I'm not going to go lights out. You're not just saying this. Yeah, you're not just saying this

to encourage me, yeah. And then, because I need to check out your ass wounds. So I'm face down, ass up on target. That's a first. That's a pretty exposed.

Pulled out my pants. There's a bunch of bad guys in here, and he's looking at my forest gump wounds. He's like, yeah, you're fine.

Let me stuff some gauze in there. And I was it. He's like, yeah, it's good. They're pretty. So how'd you guys get out of there. Called in the helicopter.

So as we're walking out, we had to walk away a little bit, obviously. There's a bunch of bad guys in there. As we're walking, they were bringing the heloos in to shoot some hellfires into it. And like, everybody get down. We're going to drop the building.

And I'm like, nah, I'm good. I'm already blown up enough. I'm just going to keep on walking. So I'm going to see the bird flight right overhead just shoot some rockets into it, and blow up building. So I'm good. Walked out to the helicopter, got on.

At least I was able to walk off myself. I wanted the guys to carry me. Nobody would carry me. assholes. Help. Help me. So you get on the bird, you're hurting,

but... Get back, everything was fine. I'm not bleeding out. My face isn't bleeding on my dying. Cool. It wasn't that bad. Stitchy up, buff it out. But the underlying...

Yeah. So the... It doesn't seem too bad. Everybody's fine. Nobody died. Two other guys got hit with me. They're okay, but then the brain stuff,

that wouldn't really... Yeah. Migraines, memory loss. It wouldn't really start. started adding up the hair falling out was a good sign of like, I'm not going crazy. For a while there, I used to be pretty high functioning. I was like, what is going on?

Your mind isn't working properly, and you're trying to figure it up by using your brain, but your brain isn't working? And you're like, am I going crazy? What is something is off? And I can't figure it out. I think something's off. Or am I just, am I going crazy?

Or do I not want to be here anymore? Like, what is going on? I can't figure this out. What's looking back on the physical, symptoms, I'm glad they happen. I'm glad my hair fell out. I'm like, you know what, you're not going crazy. Twice. And I'm like, okay, so it's, it was a weird place to be in.

Like, I want to be here with the guys, and I'm looking at one of my friends, and he's going to be a team leader. He's running two, three trips. He's getting his black belt. He's got a family. He's doing some college courses. I'm like, I can't run one trip. You got like four on your plate.

Plus, you're doing all this other stuff. And I'm like, what is going on, man? Like, come on. Like, I might not be the best. I'm the best shooter here, but I can, this isn't, this doesn't feel good. Was there a lot of just staring yourself in the mirror? Oh, dude.

I just wish I died after the Bin Laden mission. I don't know what this is, but this sucks. Yeah, so what, at that point, was there sort of a need for the medical, like, maybe tell them a little more than you'd told them in the past? Oh yeah, I medically retired out. I was telling my bosses. Okay.

You knew all the drinking issues. Yeah. Guys are dealing with their own stuff, and then the brain stuff started great pulses, great leadership. They put me through every single treatment they could possibly, that the Navy had at the time. Taking needles in my neck with the ganglion

multiple times and tried the meds out, migraine meds, psych meds, whatever. Anything. It's just nothing's really possible. But then getting out, there's other modalities out there to use that. Yeah. So.

Might not be a fix-all, but they work. I mean, looking at the arc of your career as an operator, Right, like from this very pinnacle moment of Osama bin Laden and being successful on that. Did it feel like you had something in the tank? Was it all your decision to medically retired? Did they help kind of force that hand? Yeah, they helped.

I mean, the people saw it around me that just wasn't able to keep up. Was there ever one of your teammates that was like, hey? Yep. They had had that talk. Let's all sit down and have a talk, like what's going on. Fun, fun. Yeah. So you end up back here in Texas.

I mean, so, you know, again, I've learned a lot through my own brain injuries in football, but very different impacts versus overpressure. And what you, yeah, and that coup contra coup, what the brain does when bombs or blasts or grenades have happened. I mean, even firing certain weapons, right, earpro or not, they consider a small concussion. I lost my vision the other day teaching at an indoor range. I was doing long gun indoors. I was wearing double earpro. everything got milky.

I lost my vision. I was no longer able to teach. I had to apologize to my students. I'm sorry. I lost my vision. I'm sure people accepted that pretty easily knowing you and who you are and what you've done,

but I'm sure it's still for you is like... It sucks. Yeah. I can't see. I mean, I can see. It's just, everything's foggy and milky. I'm like, I can't really see. Yeah.

So the alcohol, I mean, you and I've had plenty of talks about, You know, what works for a while no longer worked. So, you know, you were drinking yourself. I think at one point you mentioned trying to drink yourself to death. I was drinking myself to death.

Never stuck a gun to my mouth, but I was just doing it like a coward, killing myself booze. Yeah. And you gained a bunch of weight. Oh, yeah, I was 250 plus, 38 waste, 40 waste. I don't even remember.

I stopped counting. What are you now? Like 185. You look great, man. I'll tell you, dude. I mean, I didn't. I didn't know you in that pit of despair, but I know we have a lot of mutual connections

of guys that help pull you from that pit. You speak to kind of the brotherhood and what it meant for guys to say, hey look, you gotta trust us, but you gotta take some suggestions. Let's start to try some other alternative modalities and holistic ways to heal. Yep, 100%.

It's a bad time, Bob. It was a real bad time. But luckily, I got good friends that saw that. Yeah. So we both should. connection through Brain Treatment Foundation. You mentioned Jared earlier, but he was very much the catalyst, right?

He's the only reason I went to the Brain Treatment Foundation. I'm going to California to do this, and I'm not going if you don't go. I was like, all right, you're going to pull that cart. And it worked. He knew what he was doing. One of the first steps to get me back on my feet. So transcraneal magnets, TMS.

TMS treatment. Oh, Kara. She always goes above and beyond, helping people help. Amen to that, man. Yeah, Kara Williams is a special one. And there's, it's amazing some civilians that have committed their whole life to helping, not just tier one operators, but people and veterans and people that have suffered from, you know,

impacts and brain injuries. Because it is. I mean, look, there's this side of, you know, of course, you're going to use certain things to try to numb yourself. And there's the side of like, all right, are we, we need to first understand what's really going on if we remove things like alcohol and drugs. But then there's this sort of opportunity to see, like, every brain and every brain injury is a snowflake.

It's very unique to that person. Right. You know, which is wild. I can see guys still playing that we're in where I play. I'm like, man, how is, you know, how is your brain holding? Right. You know, the magnet stuff, you know, getting into different types of, like you mentioned, intermittent fasting, got big on that. Really great neurological reset and impact there.

Other, did you do hyperbarics? Not yet. I'm wanting to dive in on that. Yeah. For good things. What about the plant medicine side? Plant medicine is great. It's definitely a huge.

The TMS was good, but the plant medicine can be. It's a great tool. I wouldn't want to rely on it. Yeah. But I've seen a lot of guys that have gone through, and it's definitely... Yeah, it's certainly getting a lot of... I mean, our guy, Marcus Capone, what they've done through their program.

I mean, we both participated in that program with the Ibegain and 5MEO. And, you know, I'm like you, it's like, it's not going to fix it. No. It may give you a little bit of a degree of separation to see from a different perspective, and then you got to do the work. Got to do the work. It's a tool. Tool, yeah.

Awesome. And it's one that I wouldn't want to rely on because you're... dealing with some stuff that I'm not even sure we're supposed to be seen. Is it the apple that fell from the tree that you're not supposed to touch? It's, but it's a good tool. Yeah. I can see guys maybe wanting to abuse it and I don't, yeah. What do I know? I don't know what I'm talking about.

It's funny that people like, oh, you're just, you know, tripping or whatever. Like, it's not fun. It's brain surgery. Yeah, it's brain surgery. It's unwinding certain things and the lid of Pandora's box has to open for that stuff to happen. And I mean, I was with some incredible seal. one of the experiences, and, you know, was very rare that it was specific team guy stuff. It was usually young boy stuff or just some of those scars, the different things that actually

built, you know, this sort of house of cards, you know, and it works until it doesn't. And when that all comes crashing down, it takes new skills and new experiences to sort of start to map new neural pathways. Was there a time that you felt like, man, it all makes sense. see that I had to go through this to be who's sitting in front of me right now. Yeah, I mean, like, why did I go through all this? I did pretty well in my career. I made it to the top. Got to hang out with some pretty cool people to be part of some of the coolest missions ever.

And then all of a sudden, like, what the fuck just happened for the last five years? I'm like, I literally remember thinking, like, what have I done for the last three years, four? I'm like, well, at least I got a book on Cairo done. So I'm like, okay, that made me not feel like, why did I have to go through all this? We all, like, we're all human. You all go through ups and downs. Nobody's invincible. But I think, definitely use it.

It's like, what am I going to do with my life now? Like, what purpose is going to get me out of bed in the morning? Family. But helping people out. Like, I'm 39 still pretty young. But I got a pretty good amount of life experience. And I think I can pass that on some people that really need it. So that's what I do these days.

Yeah, you're definitely talking about the consulting stuff. But I'm also looking at maybe doing the coaching. Anybody, whether that's like a big group setting, or having people just doing the one-on-one thing, just trying to relate to people. Like, how did I go through it? That was pretty tough. Well, I can tell you this.

I know you're not a big fan of being in front of a lot of people, but you're certainly good at it. I've heard you speak. I know the story. I mean, we're unpacking the story here, and it's still visceral for me, even though we've hung and we've talked about some of these things before. And, you know, I'll proudly say that, man,

this guy has a huge impact, right? And I think part of it is actually because you're not, you know, Mr. G.I. Joe, Mr. like, you're a sweet man. And you can tell you have a lot of compassion for people and a heart for people. Is it weird when we talk about the book? It's really weird. But the ultimate purpose is now helping people. Like, I was in a real bad place.

I shouldn't be here. Like, I almost died a few times. There's going to be other guys that need that. So, you're not supposed to write a book as a seal. I wrote a book on my dog. I got a book. I'm going to use that platform. I don't love having a book.

I love the product. I love that my dog story is told. I don't love having a book. But now I can use that. I've said the speaking thing was a little rough at first, but I've helped out with quite a few foundations now and just getting up in front of these event after event and getting up there and just talking and speaking from the heart.

Like, help us, please. Yeah. It goes a long ways. Yeah. If anyone's watching and hasn't checked out, No Ordinary Dog, that's Cairo's book, Will's book. Yep. And it tells a beautiful story.

You know, when I read the moment when you talk about the dog handlers talking about who in here has had a dog saved their life, I actually reflected on that too. Not in the same, not in the field of battle. But, I mean, there's so many, when I got out of rehab for my opiate addiction when I left the league, my bloodhound, that dog, just getting him out to go to the bathroom was a big deal. And it's crazy that you can go from this level of performance to like, man, just the fact I got him outside today is a win. but that dog loved me until I can love myself. Yeah.

And this is the fur angels that we don't deserve, man. But I think, I know that resonates with a lot of people. I know people that have read your book that said the same thing. Like, it just brings to life this story, even though you know the ending, right? Like, it's just this connection with these things that remind us that, like, we're human. It's okay to feel, feel all the feels. Oh, yeah. So you mentioned family.

Is that the number one motivating factor today is your son, your wife? That's number one. And then helping guys out. There's guys taking their own lives. And that's anybody. It's not just the military side. It's the first respect. Anybody, any civilian, like, we all go through trauma.

You're not going to get through this without dealing with, you have the ups and the downs, the end in the inning, the good and the bad. It's always going to happen. So just helping people out with that, like, just because it's bad right now doesn't mean you should quit. Just keep going. It'll always get better. Like, what can I do to get better?

Like, sure, I'm in a really bad situation right here, but I know it won't last forever. Is there anything I can do right now to just get out of this? Like, cool, this might be bottom. It might get a little worse, but it won't last forever. So if I can just get that message, it's people. Nobody needs to take their own life. No. Agreed.

That's purpose. Yeah. Do you feel joy today? Yeah. Lots of joy. Ups and downs. I have my bad days. But life is good, man.

What, when you are having those downs and you're aware of it, right? Instead of using destructive habits to try to cope, like what? Is it Jiu-Jitsu? Is it, you know, what is a daily sort of like, if I can do these things that are in my control, I'm set up to be, you know, pretty solid human today. Jiu-jitsu would be one of the biggest tools I use these days. And just knowing it'll pass, like, cool, I've got a bad day.

All right, it might be two, three bad days, and it's fine. Like, what can I do? That's constructive. Do something. Go to J-Jitsu. That's like my number one, probably. Yeah. Yeah.

Move your body, right? Be able to, breathe yoga. Breathing. Yeah. They're going to yoga and doing that. Yep. Get in the pool. Moving your buddy.

Still swim sometimes? Sometimes. Yeah. I'm sure you're pretty proficient still in the pool. Sometimes. I'd rather go jujitsu. Yeah. Is it something specific about jujitsu that you kind of achieve that flow, that state where you sort of get lost in it and that brain shuts off, that conscious incessant?

Hey, man, listen to me telling you about how bad you feel. Is there something that sort of clicks? Getting into the flow. You're moving your body. You're working on your breathing. It's good. It's like physical problems. solving too.

You're having to change. Jitsu is such a paradox. Like, it's such a, you know, it's that idea that, like, someone, you'll roll with somebody and all of what you think your greatest gifts are, they use against you. You know, it's this feeling like as soon as, and the guys are really good, right? As soon as you tent something, they already know, and they're already firing on it. Do you have some guys that you roll with that, like, if you know today's a day that, like, I need that guy?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's fun, man. And that's the camaraderie. Yeah. It's just going to see the guys. let me just show up and say hi to everybody. Next thing you know, it's been an hour and a half,

and you're like, yeah. I feel much better. Yeah. And even if I don't roll, just go hang out with the guys, but you're going to roll. Yeah, yeah, pretty soon you're getting kid up, yeah, man. Yeah, you're going to get it. What, you doing tactical stuff,

you mentioned about shooting long gun the other day and kind of the visual side, are there certain things that you just have to be very cautious of that, or are you just pretty much like, I'll deal with the aftermath of these after it happens? Where we're double ear pro now, maybe no more inside ranges with the long gun. And if I do just have a backup instructor, it was just, my vision's gone like that before. It's not the first time.

It doesn't happen all the time. But now it's like, okay, outside ranges, especially if we're doing long gun. Yeah. Other job opportunities as well. There's other things besides. I enjoy teaching and stuff like that. But if it's going to mess with my head, then maybe we just find something else to do. What about, you know, leadership-based coaching?

And you have so many nuggets that you've talked about here today. Actually, I'd love to ask this question because I wrote it sort of as a plus. But from a SEAL's perspective, what is the number one attribute of a great leader? It's being humble, setting, leading by example. I mean, we had a guy when I was going through a green team. He's cadre. He's a dev group. He is, we look at him, like, I'm going through Buds and looking at a SEAL.

like you're at the year and then he gets up in front of the whole class and tells a huge mistake that he made overseas he didn't have to do that that's leading by example like he fucked up bad and he got up in there in front of the whole class and spilled everything on the table so we would learn learn from his mistakes that's leading by example that's being humble that's giving back yeah showing vulnerability right 100% and he was solid like he was yeah legend, whatever he'd been around, he had done his time. Like, oh, that's him. He'll get up there and like, yeah, I made this huge mistake.

This is what happened. And, yeah, I'm like, wow, outstanding. Yeah. Do you find, you know, I think this is always a comment that is proposition to veterans, which is, you know, the same skills that made you great, you know, outside the wire make you great back here in civilian sector. And, you know, I think some of that,

I remember people saying like, oh man, would you learn to football? It'll absolutely like, unless somebody wants to know about cover two, like I don't think it's going to help that much unless I go into coaching or scouting. But like, I mean, obviously there's different tactical, you know, you were just with the GBRS guys, you know, running and gunning and training some of the cats there. But is there, I guess, you know, certain things that you've seen translate? Like when you go and talk to a boardroom or level of executives, what are the focal points that you're trying to pull?

Because obviously they have the technical tactical skills or they wouldn't be in a position. But what are some of the things that you sort of pinpoint and help to foster as number one priorities? So finding purpose, like that was thank God all the time I found the teams to get me out of the trailer park and find that purpose. You might have to deviate from your plan, but as long as you have, like, I know where my goal is. I'm getting to that goal. I'm going to have to be flexible. Having that purpose that's going to get you out of bed in the morning to get you in that ice cold water. Like what's going to get you out of bed, really?

Like not just like money like okay. What's your purpose? Finding that purpose never quitting. You can be flexible. Yeah. But don't give up. It's going to be hard. Nothing worthwhile is easy. Right. No. Purpose, never quitting. Teamwork. It's a huge, especially in the corporate world. I've heard a couple of times like everybody wants to get that promotion. You're there to work for the benefit of the company. Like if you contribute, you should just get promoted unless you just have bad leadership. Leadership is another one. But, you're there to work for the benefit of the company. Like if you contribute, you should just get promoted unless you just have bad leadership. Leadership is another one. But, but. You're, Teamwork and then communication. Yeah. Solid leadership. Purpose, never quitting. Teamwork, communication. And then just solid leadership. I love the example you gave, man, about that legendary seal.

And, you know, his opportunity to be humble, but also to, like, think about people that I've hired at my staff. It's like, if I don't trust them to run with something fully, why to hire them? And the opportunity for them to communicate, take extreme ownership when they do, cock it up. Right. Because they're human, right? I'll always take an aggressive mistake, right? Somebody that was a little overzealous or somebody that just wanted to take total ownership of it and it doesn't go well, well, they got to own that side of the street too.

Where do you find is there difficulty when you are associated with people that don't have the same level, same standard of excellence, same level of execution that you had in the SEAL teams? It's hard to find. Just kept to navigate through it. Yeah. And then if you don't have to have them part of your team, then I just don't associate with those kinds of people. Yeah, hey, it's not personal, just... It's not personal.

Yeah. And we still be friends, but okay, if you don't fit the job profile, then maybe we just won't do this work together. Right. Yeah, well, respect to that, man. I do want to just ask a funny... Ask for the story, when Cairo peed in your boots.

Can we talk about the night that you're... I guess the morning you woke up? Yeah. Well, why did Cairo pee in your boots? It's totally my fault. I slept in. I didn't take him out because I was lazy, and I overslept the next morning.

And he filled my boots up with piss to say, thank you for not breaking me. Sooner's, wake up, lazy. It's so good that even though you're a SEAL Team 6, you're out here doing these things, and guess what, you're a dog owner at the end of the day. And that dog is gonna do what it needs to do. And that's funny, man.

That's funny. We've all been victim to wanting to sleep and not doing the thing that we know we need to do. He filled them up pretty good. That's hilarious, man. He actually got shot not too long after that. Oh, do you consider that some karma? No.

Poor buddy. It was my fault. So when you get out, talk to me about the timeline and being able to get Cairo. So I know that was a heck of a process to be able to actually, you know, Cairo was still active. He was a spare dog. He was a really solid dog. Dogs die all the time.

He needs replacement dogs, spare dog. So Cairo was a spare dog because he was just plug and play. Anybody could have picked him up, and he just does, especially when he was a season like that, he doesn't need any of the job. he knew the job. So they kept him for a long time because he was just a good dog and finally towards the end of his career

it worked out perfect since if I was still operating I wasn't married. It's a working dog. It's a loaded weapon. You need to screen the dog and screen where he's going. If I'm working, he's not going home with me.

Who's going to take care of him when you're on your trip? You're not, yeah. There was other guys that wanted him as well and they would have ended up getting him because they had families. Since I was going through my medical process I wasn't deploying anymore

and then I went through my medical stuff he went through his retirement and it ended up working out perfect So did you guys share some PTSD He definitely helped me get through some stuff And he He started pissing the bed

Towards the end of thunderstorms Which obviously that was a little weird Like I think you did it once Maybe twice So I guess he started to show some PTSD And then when he was shot in his leg They put a metal plate in there

exercising you can you can start to see him slowing down and a little hitching his step other than that W is great yeah so he ended up getting cancer yep stomach cancer and it was good man he helped me get through my transition yeah I helped him towards the end too that was tough it was that was rough for him yeah and the end might have held on for a little too long but we tried everything that we could yeah just wanted a couple more years out of them than retired life you don't always get what you want yeah he had a good run how did that feel though for you, knowing that you could do everything you could, and at some point, it was just time. It's part of it, man. It's all part of the journey.

It's a hard part. Yeah. Wouldn't be so rough if they weren't such young dogs, man. Yeah, it goes back to the hard stuff, the most meaningful stuff, is always the stuff that is the, you know, hit socks, but it's meaningful because of what you've bonded over. And no one can take that from you. Yeah. I'd rather have a shitty dog that lasted 10 years? I'm like, I don't care when you die or have that.

We're like, fuck. That sucks. But we got that time together. What'd you do with Cairo's body? We cremated him and I still got the ashes at the house. Somebody actually made me a really nice urn. I had the urn that we got the urn that we got him in. It was a little tin can.

It got all beat up and some jihitsu guy saw it. And he was my professor. And he's like, hey, man, let me hook you up. He made a really nice urn for him. So now he's sitting in a very... It's kind of what I love about you, though. Like, you're definitely just the, like, coffee can tin can. I used to carry it everywhere.

Then I got weird about the TSA. They have to check it out every time. Yeah. I'm like, oh. I'm like, oh. It's eventually this is going to go bad. I'm going to punch somebody in the face maybe. What are you going to do with the ashes? Like, nope. No, we're not doing that. So I don't fly with them. Much. I need to get something I can carry a little bit of his ashes just haven't found. You get a tattooed into you. You can do that too. I haven't got a tattoo these days. I'm weak. Dude, it's funny. I got tests too. It's been a minute for me, too. I'm always like, I'm such a baby. I'm like, oh, yeah. So anything around, I guess, sort of what you talked about,

making sure you have a true North. So today, true North for you, I mean, it's certainly serving people and helping your family. But is there something that like, man, I'd like to achieve this? Or I know you're doing some different business ventures, like investing and some other things and just, growing, you're always learning.

Is there anything that you're like, man, this is something that I want to put out in front, man. I really want to target as a goal. I definitely want to knock out my pilot's license. Yeah. I think that'd be fun to do. Call sign cheese. Right, you know, might as well.

But I got a good friend of mine. He's a XPJ. They have a program that to pilot program. Cool. It's a really good organization. It's always going to help me get that going. We can get you up here to DFW from Houston faster. A lot easier.

Yeah, don't worry about that. The truck. I have to throw this one in there, though. That's exactly it. Anything, man, that we haven't hit that you want to speak to? Dude, unbelievable. We covered everything. I mean, we covered a lot.

Just how important, I mean, your foundation is getting guys back on their feet. Well. How important all of it is. It all lines up together. There's other modalities that we've discussed that they can use, but really the baseline is sleep, nutrition, moving your body. and then the blood work literally the numbers don't lie

so get all that lined up you can really get a good solid foundation with that there's other tools you can use as well but that's a yeah I think that with a community community yeah just trust and just like you you know when you're like I'm not I just want to know if I'm losing my mind or not

you know it's amazing when you finally it takes so much to have the courage to say we had a green beret in our last cohort our last class and at week two, he sent a text on the group saying, I'm not right, I'm not good. And as a man who had served in a special operation community

at the level that he did, all the others, suddenly were like, yeah, I'm actually not good too. Like, I'm not so good either. And, you know, I mean, when we're shaking them a lot when we're trying to get them in this process, we've got to get them right up to that point when they want to quit and then they have to step over the line. But I think the, you know, great men like you,

when they can share their story and be vulnerable recognizing that, like, Dude, I'm human. As much as I could turn down a lot of those things, at some point, those things, they rise back up. They do. So being able to speak to that stuff, man, I appreciate just the raw honesty and your story is amazing, brother. Thanks, buddy. Yeah, I'm grateful to be your friend. Same here. It really is. Love you, dude. Love you, buddy. We're both tied into things. Tied in. It would have been even better if we got like halfway to the hug and could do it.

Hi, hi.