Habits and Hustle - Episode 108: Dr. Alan Castel – Professor in the Department of Psychology at UCLA; Learning, Memory, and Aging Specialist

Episode Date: March 23, 2021

Dr. Alan Castel is a Professor in the Department of Psychology at UCLA; Learning, Memory, and Aging Specialist. Through constant study, analysis, and research Dr. Castel deconstructs our misconceptions on memory and memory loss. Shutting down the myths while acknowledging the merits he gives us concrete steps and answers for how to improve our memory and just why we lose it or how it changes. Are puzzle games worth it? Exactly how much is determined by genetics? What foods to eat, what things to drink? Dr. Castel has the answers and you might be pleasantly surprised to know what some of them are. Don’t forget to check this one out. Youtube Link to This Episode Dr. Castel’s Website Dr. Castel’s Book ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Blazing deals, boundless options. It's Hot Grill Summer at Whole Foods Market from June 14 through July 4. Fire up the grill with quality cuts at the best prices. We're talking animal welfare certified meat. Check out the sales on Bone-In-Rib-I, Beef Cabobs, and New York Strip Steak. Round out your barbecue with plant-based proteins, slice cheese, soft buns, and all the condiments. Plus, sales on fresh strawberries, peaches, and more. Don't forget to pie, either.

Get grilling at Whole Foods Market Terms Apply. When there's a penalty on the field, referees are there to sort it out. When there's an accident on the road, that's where USAA steps in. We help make the claims process easy, so drivers can get back on the road fast. Making the right calls. That's what we're made for. Membership eligibility and product restrictions apply in our subject to change. USAA means United Services Automobile Association and its affiliates.

San Antonio, Texas. I got his Tony Robbins you're listening to Habitson Hussle, Crescent. Alan Castell is a professor in the Department of Psychology at the University of California, Los Angeles. He studies learning, memory, and aging, and is interested in how people can selectively remember important information. He received his PhD from the University of Toronto, did a fellowship at Washington University in St. Louis and has been at UCLA since 2006. He lectures internationally to people of all ages and has received several teaching awards. His work has been

featured in the New York Times and Times Magazine. His new book is entitled Better With Age, The Psychology of Successful Aging. And we have him here. So hello, Alan, nice to have you. Thank you, it's nice to be here. Oh, so great. I really enjoyed your book and you know, what I would I really like about your book and about your whole philosophy. There's no real smoke in me or just really kind of really like brass tax of what things really are. And so let's just dive right into it. The psychology of aging and how to age well. Should we start with memory?

Because I think memory kind of is a very, it kind of correlates nicely with aging. Sure, and I think any time you talk about aging, people immediately say, oh no, I'm starting to forget him. Does this mean I have Alzheimer's disease? Or what can I do? Yes. And usually, when we start to notice these challenges,

there's our things we can do. And it doesn't necessarily mean we have dementia. But it's good to pay attention to your mind and your body to notice You know, is this a name that I know very well, but I just can't access right now Is it on the tip of my tongue or is it a name that I never really got in the first place? And so even coming over here I'd refresh my thoughts. It's Jennifer not Jessica I know could you I think you did call me Jessica Yeah, because I've assisted in Jessica and there's you know similarities So you almost have to override all of these.

And as you get older, there's just more in your brain. There's more genophers, there's more Jessica's. And so these names are very familiar. So it's in some ways a retrieval challenge. It's not that I never encoded your name. It's that I just can't retrieve the precise name at this time. Well, okay. I want to, let's, there's two parts to that.

The two things I wanted to ask you. Number one, is there an age that we do naturally see a decline in these things? Is there an approach? I mean, I know everybody's different and we're going to get into all the different brain trainings or ways and tricks we can maybe like help our memory. But is there a point in our life that it does start to be a concern? Well, it's hard to pinpoint exactly and like to say different people,

and that's kind of the exciting part of the psychology aspect that we can put off how long before we experience really staggering declines. But I think what's striking and probably surprising to most people is these declines can start as early as the age of 20. So wow. Yeah, and I don't think we notice it because they're subtle. They're not changing, but by the time we're 30 or 40

or when we're multitasking or distracted, then we notice it even more. So I think in our middle to older age, we start to think when we're multitasking, we write it off as well. I didn't sleep well or I'm multitasking. When people are 50 or 60, they might start to notice some sharper declines, and that's when people become concerned. Is this dementia? Is there something I can do about it?

And of course, I'm not a neurologist, and so if you are very concerned, you can get objective tests to see. But oftentimes, people are just very concerned. And we refer to this as the worried well. You're worried about these changes, but for the most part, it's just kind of natural normal aging. And it's not something to be terribly concerned about, but there are things we can do earlier in our lives to ensure that we have a good memory later. So that's what I want to talk about. What can we do earlier in our life to help our memory in the later years?

Yeah. And I think that's the biggest thing. And as a psychologist, I'm going to emphasize things that I think are very important. Having said that, sometimes the best advice or some advice you get is to pick your parents wisely, meaning that there's some sort of genetic component to all of this. Right. And there certainly is, you know,

genetics do play a big role. But I think our lifestyle and the things that we do can play as big a role if not more because we have control over them. And so the best thing you can really do is engage in some sort of lifestyle habit that you can take with you for the rest of your life. And probably the best thing to jump right ahead, that you can do to ensure you have a good memory. A lot of people think it's brain training and brains, you know, stimulating your brain is great speaking in another language, doing crossword puzzles, but crossword puzzles,

but by and large, the best thing you can do is physical exercise. The mind and the body are intimately connected. And a lot of research, really good research that randomly assigns people to stretch or walk over several months finds that the group that walks three to four times a week for 40 minutes does better on many tests of memory up to a year later. And the part of the brain that's really involved in memory, the hippocampus, which tends to decline by about 1% after the age of 50. So it starts to shrink, and that accounts for a lot of these memory decline. In the group that was walking, actually, their hippocampus increased in volume by 2% after

the first year. So this gives evidence that physical exercise plays a big role both in the brain structure but then in performance, how well you can remember information. And you know these studies are ongoing and you know it doesn't mean you're going to increase the size of your hippocampus by 2% every year but the people who benefit the most are the people who are doing the least. So if you're already physically active, great, but if you aren't, you can really harness your brain by engaging in physical exercise. Okay, so then what happens with people who are physically active? Well, that's where you want to have maintenance and kind of keep it going.

And walking is one way to do it. There's many different things we can do, biking running and it really depends on the lifestyle You keep ping pong, you know some people are gonna get into different things and I think Variability is good. You don't want to do just one thing So if you're always walking that's great, but then maybe try doing something different So I I've actually started to you know sometimes on my longer walks I'll walk backwards for a little bit Now I'm using different muscles and it's challenging. I do that too.

Yeah, it's almost like half your body gets a bit of a break. You have to be careful, you don't trip and it's something, but it's challenging. So I think those are kind of the key things is this, you know, routines where you're doing physical exercise, but still challenge yourself. And that's just one way to do it. There's many things you can do. Of all the podcasts, I would have loved to do this one on the treadmill for that exact reason, because I know you say the number one, I wouldn't say secret, but the number one thing you can do to improve how you age is walking.

I mean, I'm a big fan, I'm a big believer. Unfortunately, I did hurt my knee. So now we're sitting in my kitchen. Right. But I always heard also that it's funny that you say that crossword puzzles, mind games, brain games, like that is not the number one thing that helps with your aging process.

And it is physical activity. Because I think we've all been told and seen that it's those crossword puzzles that are the most important thing to kind of keep your brain active or like alert, right? Absolutely. I think anecdotally that's what a lot of people will share. People who have very sharp minds and older age might say, well, I always do the New York Times crossword puzzle or I do it every day. And the truth is that might be beneficial, but there's no really good research that shows that that is the one thing where we randomly assign people to do crossword puzzles versus not.

You just can't really do those studies. And what's interesting is what actually tends to get better with age is verbal knowledge. So as we get older, we accumulate more verbal abilities, we're better at communicating and proficiency using language. So in a way that crossword puzzle is strengthening a strength. It it's good you're retrieving kind of lower frequency words and challenging yourself, but that's something that you actually can do pretty well in older age. So I always say look if crossword puzzles if you get excited and you enjoy them, keep doing them, that's great, but that doesn't mean that's the one thing

you should be doing. You should be challenging your brain in other ways, learning another language, doing something else, and don't forget about physical exercise, because the truth is there's probably not just one thing you need to do. There's probably many things, and that's kind of how you train your brain, is by variability, trying new things, keeping healthy habits. So it's likely a collection of a lot of things, and I think probably the key, and we'll probably return to this at the end, is balanced, that you shouldn't just be going on these five mile runs every day, or a 10 mile walk every day. Maybe some variability.

Walk, run, swim, bird watch, crossword puzzles, and interaction with other people is really important. Right. They say that socialization is the other really big one for people as a age. But in a time like now, when we're all in this pandemic, this is my first day back doing a live kind of in-person thing. You're my second guest.

And there's a major issue with isolation right now, because people haven't been able to socialize as they should. And because of that, they're higher rates of depression and all these other things. And for the people who are older, what's an outlet they can do when they're, I guess you're gonna say Zoom calls or calling their family or friends on the phone,

but that human interaction is so important. I think it's important for people of all ages. In fact, we think of older adults as being vulnerable for a lot of things, but it's actually a lot of younger people who are experiencing a lot of mood changes, loneliness and anxiety. That might not be expected, whereas we're used to older adults, not used to, but you often think of as older adults being more isolated and lonely. Some of the recent research we've done as well has shown that older adults are actually fairly resilient. They're not a big fan of social isolation, they're not seeing their family

and grandchildren, but they've also lived through things in life that are much worse than this, let's say. Right. Right. And so when they look back on their lives, they can say, look, this is not ideal and I don't like it, but I've also lived through things that have been much worse or I haven't had it much control over. So I think it's interesting to look at this, both from a perspective of a younger person and adult who might be caring for an older person and an older person because the lens might be very different. We all might experience this isolation or loneliness, but communicate it differently and might have different needs. You know, not everyone needs a zoom call every week. Sometimes a phone call might be good or just

seeing somewhere on the street even if they're further away just having that sort of face to face, but not close distance might be useful or even writing a letter. Like a lot of people are now sending mail again. Or email someone you haven't been in touch with in a long time because now you have a flexible scheduler, you wanna see how they're doing.

So I've had a few family reunions by Zoom and they're both interesting, but they've also been a good seed for me to then follow up with that. One person I hadn't seen in a couple years and send them an email or find a way to talk on the phone. Blazing Deals, Boundless Options, It's Hot Grill Summer at Whole Foods Market from June 14 through July 4. Fire up the grill with quality cuts at the best prices. We're talking animal welfare certified meat. Check out the sales on Bone-In-Ribb, beef kabobs, and New York strip steak. Round out your barbecue with plant-based proteins, slice cheese, soft buns, and all the condiments.

Plus, sales on fresh strawberries, peaches, and more. Don't forget to pie, either. Get grilling at Whole Foods Market, terms apply. Well, you said something again that about how it actually is that people, especially in this pandemic, the anxiety, the loneliness, the isolation feeling, is more, it's happy more than to a younger generation. Because I know in your book, which was very surprising to me, was that you did say, even

without a pandemic, that the aging population is, you know, all the research happier than the younger generation, which I found to be another thing I was like, kind of like, oh, I'm learning so much, learning so much great information this way. That's very much why I wrote this book is to talk about some of these myths or stereotypes we have about old age. A lot of people first of all want to avoid old age. We hide our wrinkles and die of hair. So physically it might not be very appealing. We're scared of it. We're scared of losing friends and family. On the other hand, people who live a healthy life into old age are surprisingly happy for the most part.

These are averages and have a lot of life satisfaction. They've lived a long life. That mood might be different than a younger person who's not sure their life, what they're going to do might be anxious. This might stem from what's known as this positivity bias. That as we get older, we focus more on the positive things, positive information, positive stories surround ourselves with the people we care about. Having met my mother?

I think we all have a case study that we could analyze. And I think it makes us think like, what will old age be like for me. I think we all would hope we have some control over it, that we don't get it cancer or dementia. And from a psychological standpoint, if we can avoid those sorts of things, I think we do have a lot of control over it. And we can do a lot of things to enhance our mood.

And maybe some of these are biases. Like you really do look away from negative things or don't want to be around people who are negative. And we also have to be careful not to get scammed because the flip side of this positivity bias is if someone calls you up and you're a little lonely and is offering you these wonderful opportunities to get rich, you might think maybe I should follow up on these sorts of things and that can be really disastrous. Right, is it more naivety or just like inability to kind of, you know, or you're just not, yeah, or you just, you do tend to look at the glass half full.

That might be part of it. I think as we get older, we do tend to trust people more or want to trust people. But what's interesting is in terms of scams, telephone scams and email, internet scams, often it's people with advanced degrees who are more likely to be scammed. And you'd think it's just the opposite. Like if your father and mother has a lot of degree or was an accountant, you'd think, oh, of course they're an engineer, they could think their way through why this wouldn't be the case. But the research shows that actually that's a fairly vulnerable population. And it's a population that has a lot of money too. So pursue.

Why is that, you think? I think because logically, you could maybe see your way through why some of these scams could be real or could result in something that might be helpful or you try and rationalize them. Whereas other people who might not have advanced degrees might have more street smarts. It'd be like, this is crazy.

I wouldn't trust someone who just called me up out of nowhere and offers me all these opportunities. So it's be like, this is crazy. I wouldn't trust someone just called me up out of nowhere and offers me all these opportunities. So it's so interesting. You just said that right now, because in the TED Talk that I did, I'm going to get into your TED Talk soon, I did talk about that too, that sometimes being too smart doesn't work to your advantage. Because it stops you or sometimes starts you to do things.

Because you can the ration out that the ability to justify and rationalize things can get you into trouble. Or like, you can, you know what I mean? I think you need to keep it simple sometimes. Sometimes, yeah. You know, that's something that's a life lesson. And the more mistakes we make when we're younger, or things we've seen, the more aware we might be as we get older. Whereas if you've let a life where everything's logical and falls into place,

and you might be able to not see yourself, you know, thinking that these things could be bad things, and you need to avoid them. So, you know, that's the cost of wanting to trust people or look for the best in people. Can you talk about some other myths that, you know, are out there? Yeah, sure. I mean, I think the biggest one is memory declines as we get older. And I know that's not necessarily a myth, but I think it doesn't capture exactly what happens. And actually, I think what happens in our research really emphasizes this, is as we get older, our memory becomes more selective.

And one reason this is, is our metacognition. In fact, we're hyper aware that our memory is declining, and we want to have some control over it. So then we focus on the things that matter most to us. And we know we won't be able to remember everything, and then we focus on what we think is important. And I think that's a skill that younger people might benefit from. Yeah, absolutely. And so this awareness and anxiety that might be associated with worrying about your memory can lead to this. In some cases, a very kind of savvy use of more limited memory. Well, yeah, and also I saw you did

this and I think in your TED Talk, maybe was it that, you know, if you miss 10 minutes of the beginning of a movie and you ask your kids, they'll like give you every like little detail about what you missed, which is probably not much. Right. But you ask your wife and she'll give you every little detail about what you missed, which is probably not much. But you ask your wife and you're like, you miss nothing. Because you are able to also pick the information that's important better. Exactly. I think as we get older, we're better at sifting through what's important and what is. Often we're worried about forgetting things, but forgetting can have some adaptive value, because we do want to forget,

discard things that we don't need. Whereas when we're younger, our sponges were picking up on everything, and everything could be potentially important and used at some point in the future. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I think that might be, in a sense, what wisdom could be as we get older,

is kind of figuring out what do we need to hold on to, what do we need to work with, what can I kind of tuck away for later, what can I tuck away for later, what can I offload to either a device or to a friend or spouse. Right. And as we get older, we realize we can't remember everything, but when we're younger, that's not so much of a challenge.

Absolutely. What are some tricks that we can remember people's names or other things to help improve our memory? Yeah, it's probably the most common thing when people say memory. They say, oh my gosh, I have the worst memory for names. And the truth is, it's not that people have the worst memory for names. That names are by their nature very hard to remember. There's not a good reason someone's name David or Alex, unless there's a good story behind it. So the way you can kind of trick your memory into remembering things is attach it to something

you know already. So that's a mnemonic. So I always give people the mnemonic that my last name is Castel. And I've told you this, it rhymes with pastel. My great grandfather was a painter. So now you can kind of connect Castel to pastel and then you have the pronunciation.

But of course these mnemonics, you know, you kind of have to get creative. It's hard to do like why Jennifer and not Jessica. I know many people call him Jessica. Exactly. And they lead to very predictable errors and people will then say, oh, thank you, Dr. Pastel. You gave me that great nomonas to remember your name. I'm not sure if they're joking or not, but I can see, you know, the glimmer in their eyes that like, I remember part of this because we had a conversation about pastels and artists and castels. So then you have a fighting chance, but I think the truth is, I always think that, look, I might not remember your name, but I'll remember we had a conversation or that we met through friends and all these other things that, to me, are more important than your name. So as a memory expert, I have no trouble saying, look, I study memory and I know why I forgot your name.

Your name is also my sister's name, but which sister? And that's just how memory works. And memory doesn't work like a video camera. We don't have a kind of a, even though it feels like we might have a very detailed memory for some things happened in the past. Often this can be reconstructive and small details changed. The more we tell the story, the more confident we feel about it. One example I gave as well in the TED Talk you mentioned,

is even if you see something hundreds or thousands of times, you all remember the details. In fact, you might even be more prone to forgetting them. One example is the Apple logo. We've all seen it. It's on devices all over here. But if I asked you what side the bite was on, you might struggle to remember it. I would remember it.

Right. How many people, what's the data on how many people remember without seeing it? Yeah. People are almost at chance. But then if I said is there a stem or a leaf and in which way might the stem or leaf point You know when we ask people to draw this they're kind of all over the place and then they'll say well look I'm terrible at drawing it, but I know I know it. I know it. I see it exactly But then when we give them very much like a lineup with eight different alternatives that different in terms of where the bite is

Where the stem is fewer than 50% get it even though people are are very confident. So that, I think, is a good illustration. And honestly, I'm sure you're still, yeah. Yeah. Even, of course, you're going to forget names, because you're forgetting things we see all the time. And, you know, a human memory system is not designed like a computer memory system. And in some ways, it's frustrating because we'll forget this or that. But in some ways, I think it's unique unique and it allows us to kind of mentally travel back

in time and re-experience something that happened 50 years ago. And that's one reason I found, you know, studying aging. So fascinating is I had older grandparents who would confuse me for my brother, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Get her names mixed up. But they could tell us, you know, how much the milk or lemonade was that they bought at the grocery store yesterday and how it was cheaper than it was last week and what store has a better deal. So clearly their memory is working at the level that to them is important. And why are they choosing that? Yeah, is it because? You know, it could be that the era they grew up in, they want to save money or these

things just stick. And I think it's the same, whatever you have expertise in, you're going to remember those things in a more detailed manner than things that you're not. So, of course my grandpa has probably cared about us, but of course you're gonna get names confused as you get older, but it's interesting that it's not everything that just declines. In fact, there are some things that better with age

or at least that you can selectively focus on because they're important to you. Right. Mornings are coming on strong with dark and bold from community coffee. I feel like bustle loose, ah, bustle loose, come on! Get, get, get, get, get, get on up, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that.

I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. That. I'm not gonna say that. I'm not gonna say that. more and they're trying to remember how much of it sure and did not just distracted doing a million different.

Yeah, I think attention is kind of the precursor to memory. Right. And if you're not paying attention, then you don't really have that chance to remember it. And in terms of personality, certainly that can play a role. I think there are some people who are just curious. Yeah. And they're curious about different things. And what interests you might not interest me.

And we did a study at UCLA looking at this idea that kind of curiosity guides memory. And we presented people with different statements and asked them to guess the answer, like, what was the first product to have a bar code? Right. A lot of what country was the first country to give women the right to vote? And instead of telling people the answer, we asked them how curious are you to learn the answer. And then we had them guess and people made all sorts of mistakes. And that is another key. The learning is kind of this errorful learning where you make a few mistakes and then you're given some feedback. So, and then we followed up with these people a week later, even a month later, and asked them these same questions. And it was the questions that people older adults specifically

were most interested in that they later remembered a month later. Right. And it was the questions that people older adults specifically were most interested in that they later remembered a month later. So they remembered the things that they were most curious about, but they forgot the things that they weren't interested in. Whereas the younger people kind of just in general remembered a collection of stuff. And so I think that shows that memory becomes more honed in terms of curiosity that if we're interested in the bar code, we'll remember it, but a lot of people say, no, that's so low.

I don't even, I can't. I'll tell you it's Riggley's chewing gum. And you're like, great, I don't even want to know that. Right. But if I told you it was New Zealand, it was the first country to give women the right to vote. You might say, oh, that's surprising. I would have guessed five other countries first.

That's what you might remember a month later. And that's even more of the case as you get older. So instead of it just being like a personality, I think it's like a selectivity that as we get older, we just become more honed or more specific in terms of what we want to know. Yeah, like you said, the things that we're curious about are genuinely interested in. Yeah. You'll end up remembering. And again, I kind of feel that's like with any age though, not so much with just older people. Sure. And I think it's probably true with a lot of people that if you're interested, it'll stick. But I think as we get older, there's so much forgetting.

Yeah. But those are the things that will actually stay, the things that you care about are like interested in. Yeah. How about like, how about the myths about that as you age or as you get older, why is it that we wake up earlier, earlier and earlier as we age, why is it we get more set in our ways as we age, because these are things that when people are like, oh well, now she's to set in her ways for so and so, right? Why is that happen? Well certainly circadian rhythms change as we age. And this is not true for everyone, but for the most part,

when we're younger, our kind of optimal time of days later in the day, sometimes in the evening, if college students will typically stay up late, doing a lot of studying, as we age our circadian rhythms shift typically, so that as when we're older, where we're more our optimal time of days, earlier in the day and sometimes in the morning and Studies have shown this when you test an older adult at their optimal time of day They're doing as well as a younger adult that their non-optimal time of day

So these effects can be pretty big right and again I noticed with my grandparents who would be up at six or seven right? Call me up and they've already done five or six things and I'm barely out of bed. But in terms of the habits, that's interesting because certainly as we get older, our habits might become more entrenched or pronounced. We just had more, you know, we go to the same restaurant, we see the same friends, we do the same things.

And some of those habits can be beneficial. Like, if you're going in the same coffee shop, you'll see the same friends, you'll have this kind of structure. But that's not to say that as we go to older, we always fall into these habits and we can't change and a lot of older adults are interested in trying a new restaurant or often when people retire, they do want to take a new trip somewhere. So it's not that you can just say like, people are just, those are their habits and they can't change them.

I think we trust ourselves more We know we like we don't like right but I do I mean Again, maybe it's a personality thing, but then again, I think it can be the combination right because Even as I age and people I know age like you know my mom or whatever It's like you tend to want to do things that you're comfortable knowing that you're not. Like, they're not, you're more risk adverse as you get older. And it makes sense. You don't want to slip and fall. You don't want to get lost in a part of town that you're not familiar with.

And when you're younger, taking those risks could be beneficial. You're kind of foraging and looking for new opportunities and mates. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. I think when you're younger, it's kind of this selective optimization where you kind of know what works for you. You know, these other things might be risky. They might not be fruitful. So why take those chances?

And sometimes I can be frustrating. If you're like, hey, mom, let's go do this or do this. And I'm like, no, I don't do that. I'm not going to. And you're just at different stages in your life. And it's not to say what she's doing is a bad thing because she's restricting opportunities. It's just that, you know, she might not have the same resources you have or maybe her knees are not as strong as they used to be. So she doesn't want to take risks that could be kind of result in things that

really limit her mobility. More from our guests, but first a few words from our sponsor. More from our guests, but first a few words from our sponsor. Well, guys, if there's ever a service that I need, it's this one. It's called Belay. And if you're like me and sometimes don't know or how even to begin to delegate your workload and you're spending a lot of time with hours that are not productive to your ultimate goal, this is a service and a company you need to look into. But lay is an incredible organization revolutionizing productivity with their virtual assistance,

their bookkeeping, and social media strategy services to actually grow your company and your organizations. You know, they learn that you can learn how to focus on productivity rather than the profits to actually have a much more successful company, right? Belay's productivity guide is a compilation of their most tried and true resources for actually mastering time organization tips, delegation advice. I mean, guys, this is really a great, great service. Learn how to boost your productivity and accomplish more with Belay's resource. Your personal guy to a productive work week.

Visit belaysolutions.com slash habits to download it free today. That's belay solutions, B-E-L-A-Y solutions.com slash habits to download it free today. So I always interesting you say all of that, but then all of that else might be interested in like reading a new book or finding a new movie. Absolutely, right? So everything is everything is relative and it's not like one brush to paint everybody, but I do find like, you know, happens with me, happens with everybody I see. Like that, those are, I kind of feel myths that are, there's like some accuracy to them, right? Yeah. And I think stereotypes often, that's why they are stereotypes.

There's some reason we have them and they do fit. And, but it doesn't mean necessarily we need to fall into them. And sometimes I can be beneficial, but sometimes that's not the case. And, you know, one thing that I was caught that as we get older, we actually don't feel as old as our age. And that's kind of perplexing. It's so true, though. But that can be cost and benefits.

Like, so I think the research shows that after the age of 40, you tend to feel subjectively 20% younger. Yeah. You know, when you're 50, you don't feel 50, like I feel like 38 and 40. And so, you know,

why is that psychologically the case? And it keeps us young maybe makes us you know do things that you know don't fit the age stereotype. Well look at my knee for example. I mean not to keep on bringing up a knee but no it's important. You know but I'm telling you it's like I think I'm still 24 and I can do the same wear and tear in my body that I did before. And then I never got hurt back then, but now getting hurt, right? Or if you did get hurt, it heals really quickly. So you're much more resilient.

Yeah, you don't feel like it's risky to do those things. But I'm always caught when people say, like, oh, I had a back injury when I was 35 and people just said, oh, you're getting older. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's part of it, but it didn't feel. But I was probably doing things without stretching or kind of Right, I've lifting car seats and doing things that I wasn't doing when I was 25

25 right so there's there's reasons, but you know within me it's interesting because you could say it It's just age, but your other needs the same age Exactly Well, then I would argue is because I'm putting more wear in tarant this one because it's it's overcompensating for a different injury. Absolutely. And I want to bore you with all the like, regular world decals. No, it's fascinating. And as you get older, actually, you'll notice people do talk more about their injury. Oh, you know, they share because these things become more important.

Whereas when you're young, you know, like it's in the injury, let's move on. Exactly. Basically, but I think as we get older, you know, if you notice the conversations often it's around like the weather, or you know, injuries or hobbies. Yeah, why the weather though, just kind of. I'm not saying wonder, I think it's because it's common to everyone, it's a good conversation.

Yeah. And it's also something we don't, naturally, it's very interesting. We don't have control over it. We know, you know, we both, we both grew up in Canada, I think that's the accent. So I think it's, you know, you have to take into account the weather here in sunny

Southern California not so much, but I think people, you know, I know my father-in-law will look at the weather and other parts of the country where his son is and so on. So I think it is just an interest in nature and the things we can and can't control. Or just something that you it's easy act. It's like accessible information. Sure. something that you it's easy act is like accessible information. Is there any kind of research on people who live in cold climates versus people who live in warmer climates in terms of their aging or their memory? You know, it's always you could see a lot of these snow birds moving from the floor and there could be a million reasons for that. I don't know if that could actually lead to any longevity. I think what is important when you make

those moves is to make sure you're around kind of a social community that you connect with. And so a lot of people will move and then realize they had so many friends back home, or they move because they're friends have moved, which can be very healthy, or they move because grandchildren have moved. But that can, you know, then you realize, well, we move for the grandchildren, and now we don't have friends around. So I think having a community around of people

that you enjoy interacting with, whether it's swimming, playing golf, reading, privilege, anything, going to the senior center, those sorts of communities are important, and I think the actual weather, whether it's more of a call that might not play as much a role as we think it does. Is there a difference between longevity and aging? Because I feel, and it could be just my social circle, or where I live, or whatever, there

is an obsession now with longevity, like how to, you know, anything that they, anyone can do to like seem and feel younger, they're biohacking the hell out of them. Right? They'll do it. I mean, there's all sorts of things that are happening. I think aging has negative connotations for as longevity doesn't. So it's just a nice euphemism. In a way. But I mean, would you want to live a long life when 30 years of it would be in a terrible state for your dementia or would you rather live a shorter life where you were relatively healthy. So I think we need to think of this in terms of kind of the meaningful years we have to live.

And talking about successful aging in some ways is tough to know because what a success mean, it could mean different things. To different people. To different people. Right. So we want to make sure these are kind of meaningful years, maybe to some people that would be productive years. Yeah. To others, maybe to some people that would be productive years, to others maybe not.

You know, we don't just want to add years to our life, we want to add life to those years. Right. And I think that's probably the most important thing to consider when we think like, how can I age well, but also in a way that that's meaningful and you know, keeps me happy and the people around me happy. So when you wrote the book better with age, you know, the psychology of successful aging, what were you talking about then? Were you talking about that, about how to age with happiness and with health and? I mean, those are some things that were,

the pursuit of happiness is something we're all interested in in every age. So I think really the point is not to be happy or healthy. I mean, hopefully those would be the byproducts of engaging in active lifestyle, being curious, being around the people you care about. But I really had to rethink what it meant to be successful at this.

And I interviewed many people for this book, including people like Maya Angelou, and Bob Newhart, Jack Lillange, John Wooden. It was Frank Geary. It was a lot of fun. I mean, you did was a lot of fun. I mean, you did interview amazing group of people. Was there one through line through all of it?

Well, it's funny. A lot of these, you could say are anecdotes and these are outliers because they're not people. Exactly. But they all had different things to say and some of them are happier than others. It's not just because they've reached fame that they were happy in some cases.

They were workaholics. I also interviewed a lot of other people who were just retired, happy, active, postal worker. The more I started doing this, the more people would say, oh, you have to interview so-and-so. I know they're 94 and still doing this. So there were a lot of great interviews.

Probably one of my favorite ones was with John Wooden, who was the UCLA basketball coach. And he was, I was always a fan of great interviews. Probably one of my favorite ones was with John Wooden, who was the UCLA basketball coach. And he was, I was always a fan growing up in Canada. He's been a UCLA basketball. So I'm just so happy to be here. And so I got to meet him and interview him. And he was amazing. I'm just an incredible person.

And he had lots of stories. And, but you know, he had a busy calendar. It was hard to get a slot with him at age 94, and then I'm a few times, but he set kind of... Even at 94? At 94 he had a handwritten calendar, and it was a busy calendar, people dropping into CM, but he made time for me, and the irony was that the day before

I was gonna meet him for an interview, he called me the night before to remind me that I was coming with him. And I was thinking, this is amazing that a 94-year-old has to remind me and has the where with. And I was thinking, this is amazing that a 94 year old has to remind me and has the wherewithal to think about it. So, you know, the interviews in the book, it's kind of the highlights of it, but he said it comes down to kind of two things, and this is what he said not just about aging, but the two most important words in the English language to him,

and I should have you guessed, but I won't put you on this spot. Yeah, you could, but it go ahead. He said the first one was love. And it's really be around the people you love, do the things you love. And he had a long successful career. His wife sadly passed away well before he did. And he would still write her letter every month.

He wouldn't sleep on her side of the bed. So he felt there's a tremendous loss there. But he had a huge extended family and players who would be visiting all the time. And the second word was, and he had me guess, that's why I was gonna have to hide. I completely struck it up, but the second word caught me by surprise,

but I think it's a great one, sure, you can try it. Okay, the first is a lot. Yeah. Community, I was gonna say. It's definitely related to community, but it's balance. And he said, you have to find balance in your life that there's not one thing and you know work can be incredibly rewarding, but you have to balance it with family or other pursuits. And the balance is not just

kind of this physical, this emotional or mental, but it's also physical. And one thing people don't think about, yeah, as we get older, is after the age of 65, one in three Americans are going to suffer a fall. And that fall can result in a broken hip or collarbone. It happened to wooden in his apartment. He fell in the middle of the night, going in the bathroom and broke his collarbone and his wrist. He lay on the floor because he couldn't move and waited until the next morning until a caretaker came and he took him to the hospital. And he was lucky.

He could have died. He was in his early 90s. And that happened all along. And it happens, I mean, it happens to many people, but we don't really focus on it. We think about our own memory. We have to keep our memory sharp. And really what we have to do is stay on our feet. And in Wooden's case, he was lucky.

He even had a life alert, but he didn't use it. He didn't press the button because he didn't want to bother anyone. And so that's another barrier psychologically, is that we might not want to admit or cause, you know, trouble to someone else. So I always tell people, people will talk about brain training and computer-based brain training and, you know, how do I keep my memory sharp, is it crossword puzzles? And I say, probably the most important thing you need to focus on is your physical balance. And you can practice this every day. And I a great tip from an older adult who told me she brushes her teeth every morning standing on one leg for one minute and then switches legs to the other. And you know, instead of the treadmill, we should do the balance. Because if anyone

tries this right now, if you stand up and try balancing on one leg, you might do it for 10 or 15 seconds, then you notice you can't hold it and then try with your eyes closed. It's even more difficult. So then imagine you're 50 or 16, you're getting up at night and there's a carpet you might trip over or a pet on the way to the bathroom, you lose your balance. We often can regain it and those are near misses and they happen all the time. But when you lose your balance and you break your hip, you're in the hospital, that's

kind of the first step towards less mobility, less independence, and ultimately death. Absolutely. And so it's kind of a scary thing to think about, but it's also something, again, we do have control over. If you practice your balance five to ten minutes every day, it's probably more important than the crossword puzzles or the brain training or these other things. Absolutely. You know what, Sinch?

Because you're right. I mean, when people fall, older people fall and break a hip or whatever else, that is the beginning to the end right there. That's when it becomes, it's like a quick rabbit hole down, down. Because you lose your mobility, then you're in the hospital, and then people have to take care of you. Then you're not walking.

And we know if you're not walking, your hippocampus might shrink. It might shrink, exactly. Your memory is tested to climb. So all of these things, I think, are related. So when Wooden said balance, I'm not sure if he meant exactly in this way. But it's certainly a topic that I'm so interested in.

And I think we all need to be, because when we say, what's the one thing, there is no one thing. And we do need to find balance in our life. And if you're doing a lot of running, then you probably should do something else to balance it out. The end to the end, everything. And that's what, again, with the knee, but the truth is that's why, right?

Because I was so hardcore and one modality that I didn't recover or give myself that recovery. But there's always a need for that in and the yang, so with balance. But it's interesting because I'm sure a lot of these people, like you said, when you're interviewing them, and they're successful, quote-unquote, it's because a lot of them workaholics, too.

Yeah, and so I don't think there were a role model for balance. And I think that's the struggle we all have, because if we find something interesting and rewarding, we're going to throw ourselves into it, the running, the, you know, our jobs and so on. And I think we learn, especially during a pandemic, how important balance is that even if we didn't like our commute to the office or all the other, it wouldn't be bad to have it one or two days a week. Yeah, exactly.

And then we could really balance things out. So I think we, in a sense, this pandemic for me at least felt like a mini taste of what retirement could be like. So you still have a job and responsibility, but now you're all in one place and maybe you're not around the people that you're usually around. And at least for me, I noticed how many of them are like my friends of social circle that I have lunch with or see and bump into in the elevator. When all of that's gone, you realize something's really missing. Absolutely.

Also the gym. A lot of people are going to the gym. I mean, it's not just to be working out. It's because you develop a social community. They're your senior friends. It becomes part of your daily fun in a way, right? It's motivating, it's socializing, it's kind of socializing, and small groups.

And maybe not for a long period of time, you don't need to go out to lunch with someone right seeing people at the coffee shop the library a community center It can be very rewarding and sometimes we underestimate that so we do if we move to another state or country or do something like that You know, there's gonna be some challenges as we get older. No, absolutely. I mean, I think that's a very to get very true with the trueism Yeah how about how about other things, like some key points or key learnings from all the people that you've got? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to summarize it all. I try in this book to do that.

That'll all just another. I think the summary that I give people are the ABCs of successful aging because it's kind of more digestible in A can stand for attitude, because if we have a positive attitude about aging, we're more likely to walk or be around people who, you know, share that part of that. Like like minded people, like be around the fall. Although it's good to be around other people

who've shared differences and opinions and so on, but you know the people who bring you down or the people who, you know, don't bring out the best in you. So that attitude about aging can be important. And then B is balanced, like we talked about already, both physically and mentally. don't bring out the best in you. So that attitude about aging can be important. And then B is balanced like we talked about already, both physically and mentally. And I think the last one is kind of often forgotten is seek for connection. You know, connect with the things you love that you find important, but also the people that you want to be around. And that connection can be important, you know, especially during

a pandemic, how can you stay in touch, not all of it is Zoom, whether it's writing a letter or making a connection with a new person, which can be very challenging during these times, but sometimes a person of a different age, and sometimes older, and also enjoy spending time with someone who has complementary skills. Is there a way, you're saying earlier,

and I think we got sidetracked about people who are losing their memory, for example, in dementia? Is there a way to revert any ways people can start reversing that besides what we talked about? Is there like foods that are besides all the stuff we always hear, you always hear about, you know, salmon and blueberries for marine omega-3s. Is there like any kind of new information up there that we can believe that it's tough for dementia, especially, you know, Alzheimer's, a form of dementia of the most common because there's no drug, there's no treatment that really has proven to be helpful. So that's why I think everything we have to focus on is prevention. And I think if we've seen it happen to our parents or grandparents, that might make us more aware of it and more anxious. But I think there are things we can do such as physical exercise,

being around people, you know, playing music, listening to music, reading fiction actually can be surprisingly good for your imagination and mind. And these are things we can do that we might enjoy. I'm always hesitant to recommend this salmon and blueberries and so on because- Here that all the time is the same thing. I think it's definitely dark chocolate. But you have to look at the effect size, like how much is it going to offset dementia for you who's already probably got a fairly good diet to begin with. And if you're just eating blueberries by the pound, you're losing balance, right?

Like a balanced diet is probably more important than I'm going to eat blueberries for dinner instead of. So I think, you know, finding the right amount. So balance in every part of life, right? And how you eat. I think so, yeah. I think that's how physically active you are, how much you work, how much you socialize with friends and family.

Because I think it's like a portfolio. You don't want to focus just on one stock because that stock could tank. Maybe the research shows this in mice that never eat blueberries. They get this big benefit. But if you're already having a fairly balanced diet, for even coffee comes and goes and red wine to a lot of these are correlational studies, so we don't know what causes what. Right. So, you know, sometimes the red wine one is, if you're having one to two drinks of red wine

a week, it might be because you're doing it socially with other people. And maybe it's the social component, and then the red wine is a part of that that can really lead to longevity. So it's really hard to know. It's hard to know, but I think if we don't know, you should have had your bets. Don't start drinking red wine because one study told you two cups a week is what you need.

But if you're drinking, you know, if you're having social interactions and a glass of red wine is part of it, that's probably not such a bad thing. So is there any kind of supplements or like that you would recommend? Would you think of like, oh, Meg, we all hear about the Omega 3? Is there anything that we don't know about that you know? This is a great, not to say.

I know you're, I start the podcast by saying, what I love about you, Alan, and they're not about like here, take this magic pill, and this is like, you know, a research psychologist. So if I was a medical doctor, I might have more insight as to what deficiencies or what the latest thing is. But I'm not.

I also feel like a balanced approach is, you know, if you are missing some things, you could benefit. Like, if you're, you know, if you're vegetarian or if you're doing this, maybe that's something you want to rethink as you get older, like, is this diet going to suit me well in the next 10 years of my life? And maybe it will and maybe it won't. But I think that sort of balance might be important to consider. Is there any kind of information again that for all the people you interview that they were,

that they swore by doing this ex thing that kept them young or kept them from aging rapidly? Yeah, Bob Newhart told me you have to have a sense of humor. I think that's the one commonality I saw among everyone. And you know, this is from comedians who I interviewed to the most serious person you'd interview that you have to realize that taking things with the grain of salt and knowing, you know, have control over everything. And having a good laugh, I think that's something people especially appreciate as you get older. And when you're younger, maybe you're more serious or concerned or uptight. Right. And as you get older, you can certainly have those qualities.

But I think we all appreciate a sense of humor, and you're going to need it. You hurt yourself. Funny things are going to happen to you. Your body starts making funny sounds. Your hair starts growing in places you never thought of. So if you can laugh about it a little bit, and share that with others, I think that's

another important thing. People don't talk about loneliness because there's taboos around psychology and not feeling that way. But the more we talk about it, the more comfortable we are knowing other people feel that way or experiencing these challenges. So what can we do sometimes together to ensure that we age well? Breathe in, breathe out. Get dressed, head out, grab some friends, camp out.

Get hyped up, vibe out, grab some friends, camp out. Get hacked up, buy back. Take your dean, let it all out. That RRI co-op, we're here for all the outs. We want you to spend more time outside our doors and in there. Try it out, check out, think it out. RRI co-op, all All at visit arei.com. And like you also said earlier, like when John Wooden felt being not wanting to ask for help, I mean, being getting comfortable with asking for help

when you need it, right? It's hard to do. I mean, I think we all strive to be independent and have control over what we can do. And I think even if you give someone this opportunity to press this button for help, psychologically, there's more to it than that. Some people might press that button very quickly.

And many times. Exactly. I know some people like that. Exactly. I think I'm related to something. I think we also know people, you can see that saying, like, no, they don't want that, or they don't want Alexa listening

into every conversation. They don't want these things. So I think psychologically, that becomes very interesting. How can we improve our lives knowing how people behave and that some people might behave in a different way. Right. You know, also a thing I saw in your book and I wanted to ask you about it was how you, how you How you reframe something is a big indicator of how much you remember, right? Like the wisdom test versus the memory test. Our expectations, the language we use, it's not fair to ask someone how old they are, but if I said how young are you or you look very young, just reframing it that way makes us think

differently about age and studies have shown that when you give an older adult a memory test, there's something called stereotype threat. If I say we're doing a study on aging and you're our older adult population and we're going to test your memory and a younger person is administering the test, the older adult is going to experience some anxiety, which can impair their memory. And that doesn't account for everything, but if you change some of these things in a subtle way, say, now we're going to test your wisdom, maybe instead of using a computer, it's a paper and pencil test, and maybe the person who's administering it and an older person as well, that reduces the anxiety and older, it also tends to perform

better. On the same test, it's still the same objective memory test. It's just presented in a different way. So as a psychologist I find that very important that our expectations really do matter. Well, I think reframing as a psychologist right is something that people talk about a lot with anything right like how you even some as overall confidence no matter what age you are right. If you how you reframe how you see yourself or what you're saying out loud and whatever else changes your perspective, the perspective around you. So that kind of falls in line with what you're saying. And so if we rethink how we think about aging, that might benefit, you know, the next cohort.

Yeah. If you don't think of it as something we want to avoid, or something we should hide, or, you know, gosh, this happened to my parents, what will happen to me. If we think of it, that can be a positive thing. If we're doing some, that can be a positive thing. If we're doing some of these things that can lead to it, surrounding us with being around people who have positive energy, having expectations that we have some control over things, but not everything, having a sense of humor.

I think all of those things, staying curious about the things we really care about, but also realizing we might not remember anything. Right, right, right, right. That's okay as well. You remember the things that are important to you. Exactly. Yeah. Am I missing anything with you?

You said to me on the way, and that you are writing a new book, right? Yes, I mean, it's after writing this book, and it was, I thought for me this is an important book because I really wanted to talk about aging, but I think more broadly speaking, I'm very interested in how people can see the big picture. I think that's something that happens as we get older, maybe as there's a pandemic. We start to say, what's really important to me. My next book is going to focus on those sorts of things that can allow us

to see the big picture, the bottom line, the executive summary, like you said, if someone said, well, what was the podcast about? It was an hour long. I don't want to hear the hour long version. Why is it that some people can kind of summarize it in two or three minutes and tell them, go look at these other things if you're interested. Or as other people kind of struggle

and remember some details, but forget the bigger overarching themes. It's something I struggle with. I think we all do. I know, it's actually true. And you know, it's funny. Again, like all of this is so relatable, right? Like I see myself doing it as I'm getting older. Like, you know, I'm like, oh, it was about this, whatever.

Or just watch the teaser or whatever, you know. Where do people find more information? Your book is obviously called Better With Age. And it was a Wall Street Journal best seller, wasn't it? It was featured in a Wall Street Journal in Time Magazine. It's available on Amazon. It's still available on Amazon. But if you're interested, that's where you can find better with age. I also have a website through UCLA if you're interested in the research we're doing.

And I hope to be back again a couple of years with a new book. Oh my gosh. So what is that book coming out? As soon as I start writing it. Oh geez, okay. So it's like, I'm still kind of enjoying some of the themes here and trying to take what I learned from writing

the first book into writing another one. Wow, I know it takes a long time. It does. You never sure if it's the right time. I know, well, nothing's ever. You gotta just do it. I think so. I can just put it out there. Yeah. It takes even after you write the book, it's gonna take a. I know. Well, nothing's ever. You've got to just do it. I think so.

I'll put it out there. Yeah. It takes even after you write the book, it's going to take a year to get out. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. This book was probably a seven, eight year journey. Oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh. Well, it's a great read and better with age with Alan Castell, right? You got it. Like Castell. Like Castell. There you go. There I just took one of your tricks. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. It was a really treat to have you here. Thank you for having me. And definitely come back when you have a new book.

I hope so. If I have another question about aging, I know where to go. You know where to find me. Thank you so much. Thank you. time to get it rolling, stay up on the grind, don't stop, keep it going. Habits and hustle from nothing in the summit. All out, a host of bio-jent of fuck going. Visionaries, tune in, you can get to know. Be inspired, this is your moment. Excucess, we in heaven at the Habits and hustle podcasts, power by habit nest.

Hope you enjoyed this episode. I'm Heather Monahan, host of Creating Confidence, a part of the YAP Media Network, the number one business and self-improvement podcast network. Okay, so I want to tell you a little bit about my show. We are all about elevating your confidence to its highest level ever and taking your business right there with you. Don't believe me, I'm gonna go ahead and share some of the reviews of the show so you can believe my listeners.

I have been a long time fan of Heather's no matter what phase of life I find myself in, Heather seems to always have the perfect gems of wisdom that not only inspire, but motivate me into action. Her experience and personality are unmatched and I love her go getter attitude. This show has become a staple in my life. I recommend it to anyone looking to elevate their confidence and reach that next level. Thank you! I recently got to hear Heather at a live podcast taping with

her and Tracy Hayes and I immediately subscribe to this podcast. It has not disappointed and I cannot wait to listen to as many as I can as quick as I can. Thank you Heather for helping us build confidence and bring so much value to the space. If you are looking to up your confidence level, click creating confidence now.