Habits and Hustle - Episode 140: Dr. Amishi Jha – Professor of Psychology – Cognitive Neuroscience of Attention and Mindfulness, and Author

Episode Date: November 2, 2021

On today’s show we have Dr. Amishi Jha. She’s a professor of psychology at the University of Miami and serves as the Director of Contemplative Neuroscience for the Mindfulness Research and Practice Initiative. Over the last 25 years, Dr. Jha has been researching the science of attention with elite athletes, the Military, and medical professionals. She’s the author of PEAK MIND – Find Your Focus, Own Your Attention, Invest 12 Minutes a Day. Some of the topics we cover include de-centering, the power of training attention, mindfulness, practices that help with training your mind to be less distracted and so much more. We do a deep dive on attention, and how it’s really a superpower you have the capacity for…one that you can unleash!  Tune in! This episode is full of actionable tips. Youtube Link to This Episode Dr. Amishi’s Website Dr. Amishi’s Twitter ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I got this Tony Robbins, you're listening to Habits in Hustle. Fresh it. Today on the podcast, we have Dr. Amish Jha, who is a neuroscientist, specializing in the brain mechanisms of attention. Dr. Amishi researches mindfulness techniques to optimize your focus, even under high stress. She studies how we actually pay attention, the process by which our brain decides what's important out of a constant stream of

information it receives, both external distractions like stress and internal ones like mind wandering. She did a TED talk called How to tame your wandering mind that went viral. She is presented to everyone from the Dalai Lama, to the Pentagon, to NATO. And she's spent over the last 25 years of her life researching the science of attention through extensive work with the US military, medical professionals, elite sports teams, and much more. I really, really enjoyed speaking with her. Her new book is called Peek Mind.

And she gives practical techniques that we can actually implement into our lives to make us pay attention. She says that we spend almost 50% of our lives not paying attention. That number was, to me, crazy. I really enjoyed this conversation. I hope you do too. Let me know what you think. All right, so today on Happens and Hussle, we have Dr. Amishi Ja, who is a specialist

in neuroscientists and she specializes in attention from how to focus better, how to not wander your mind, which is of course a huge problem for probably everybody, and She wrote a book called Peak Mind. Find your focus, own your attention, invest in 12 minutes a day. So you're saying in 12 minutes a day, we can learn techniques to be, I guess, to pay attention better or to be more focused. Yeah, I mean, definitely we can use 12 minutes a day. You've got to learn the techniques, sort of a longer ramp up, just like physical exercise. You want to make sure your form is right, you know the moves, but then the daily exercises

is 12 minutes a day. So can you just start, let's start from the basics. Like what is attention exactly? Because you've been researching this for 25 years or so, right? So- So attention is this success story of human evolution. The brain over the course of evolution, like our long, long, long ago ancestors

had this very big problem, that the brain could not handle processing everything around it. It just didn't have those computational capacities. So attention was devised as a way to kind of sub-sample the environment. Like, get a piece, look at it carefully, and then sample another part, et cetera. So it allowed us to understand our environment, but kind of in bits and bytes. And so, kind of fast forward today, that is what attention is. It is this powerful brain capacity that allows us to advantage some information

over other information. And whatever it is that we pay attention to, our brain can know more about that information, which is why it becomes so powerful in terms of our lives, because essentially everything that we pay attention to becomes our life. And that means that the things we aren't paying attention to tend to fade into the background and don't get the kind of access to us that they might need. Well, you know what I loved about your book. It was very, I resonated a lot with me. And like I said from the beginning, is that I feel like a lot of people, if they read it, when they read it, they'll see themselves in it. And you said a lot of very good facts. One is that 50% of our lives basically, we don't, we're not even like, we don't even

like, like, even paying attention to. They just, it just passes us. And a lot of information, even in like an eight minute conversation, four of those minutes were not even like, we're not even like actually there. Right. That's a huge number. It is.

And that's a real wake-up call for most people. I mean, you might get that sense of, I don't feel like I'm quite as present in my life, but then when you actually see the data, over and over again, and the striking thing is, you can't pay people to make that number go up. I saw that too. Yeah, and over again. And the striking thing is you can't pay people to make that number go up. I saw that too. Yeah, and you can actually motivate it. And it doesn't matter how intrinsically interesting or important the topic is, attention will slip away. I mean, we've got to, as you

read in the book, a neurosurgeon who's mind-wondered, you know, or a Caroline pilot who's mind-wondered. And sometimes for the kind of populations that we work with in my lab, there's consequences. I mean, essentially attention becomes life or death. Absolutely. I think you even said like in all the experiments, 100% of the people, not one person can actually focus the full time, even if you paid them, even if you do all these things. So that's just part of human nature. It's part of the way the brain was organized. In some sense, it makes sense, right? So if we go back to our evolutionary ancestor and we talk about

why they developed attention, like sampling the environment, if all that happened after they were, had this capacity, is they paid super duper unflinching focused attention. Imagine they're at a watering hole, you know, or an ancient creature, and they're focusing on just hydrating themselves and paid no attention to the rest of the environment, then get eaten.

Right. So having un-shifting focus is a problem because you need to be able to have this kind of buoyancy. That part is okay. And being distractable is okay. And I would hope that understanding that 50% of our lives we spend in this sort of moving up attention about without real knowledge gives people some hope like, okay, it's not just me.

It's not just that my mind does this, this is the nature of the mind. But the worst part, unfortunately, I mean, that sort of normalizes things. But the worst part is that under high stress circumstances and even day-to-day ups and downs of life, things like stress and threat and negative mood, it can make that number go up. And that's when we get into trouble. Right. And then it doesn't feel just like normal distractability. It feels like you can't overcome it. Well, yeah, you said this kryptonite, right, to the attention. So the three things are stress, you said mood, and what was the, D, my attention's gone. No problem.

Stress, threat, and poor mood. And poor mood. And then your attention diminishes. So if you have a high stress job, if you're a mom or a dad and you have kids, like how can we actually make it better? Like is there all these things about like positive thinking, all these like thoughtful things that people say to do

to actually help kind of bring your, I guess bring your thoughts back to your present? Do you think that you're saying basically they don't really work? Do they work? Give me some information. I mean, I think that when you think about, so there's so many different things,

that I short answer is yes, there's absolutely something you can do about it. And there's ways in which we can get better ownership over our attention. A lot of times these days, it feels like we just don't have access to it, it's gone somewhere else, right? Whether it's getting pulled by our social media feed or demands of your life, you don't feel like you really have

a hold on this capacity. And then if you don't, you don't feel like you have a hold on your life. And so the you don't, you don't feel like you have a hold on your life. And so the question becomes, how might you train it so that you feel like it's actually in your command? And what surprised me as an attention researcher is, you know, I dedicated my life to this. I studied attention even as an undergrad. So for quite a long time.

And I personally had a crisis of attention when my children were quite young. So my son was not even three years old. So I really resonate. This notion of parenting challenges and career challenges. They're not just like ideas for me. I'm this is exactly what motivated me to try to figure out a solution because what I realized is that I was not there for the things that I thought

were the most important things, right? Reading to my son, I felt like I was gone. I wasn't even aware what I was reading on the page. The thing that was coming. So true. That's why I love that. But that's why this book, I'm telling you, it's so true. There's like all those things you stay like, you can't help it.

Your mind just kind of goes somewhere. I feel the same way. I'm reading these books to my kids. I'm so spent and tired. I don't even know what I'm just kind of going somewhere. I feel the same way. I'm reading these books to my kids. I'm so spent tired. I don't even know what I'm reading. It's a gobbly gook. And I can't even understand like this book is made for a five-year-old

and I have no idea what I'm talking about. Right. And I think that sometimes of course we're gonna have other things that preoccupies, but when it feels like you wanna be there and you can't, then it doesn't feel so good. It feels like, this is literally the most important thing I'm doing in my entire day. I mean, I have this child, this child

is precious to me, or whether it's your spouse or even a meeting at work, whatever it is, you want to be able to have access to that capacity on demand, right? And so what I did at that point is when I was starting to feel like this was happening, I'm like, I know about attention. Like this is my expertise. I'll just look at the literature and figure out, what do you do to get your attention back. Well, I was sadly disappointed because nothing in the literature that existed at that time, this was back in the early 2000s, really gave good instruction on what an individual could do to increase their attention in a manner that was really going to show up as hard data, which show that your attention was better. So

that I was really disappointed. What this field has not progressed to the point of helping individual people that I got very curious. How are we going to do this? How are we going to actually help people? Because I know I'm not the only one experiencing this. This is a part of the human condition and especially the modern moment of trying to have a parent and a professional.

It's not random or I'm not rare. And so the thing that really surprised me is where we ended up finding the best solutions, which was actually through something that's been around for thousands of years, mindfulness meditation. And most people when they hear that term meditation, they think, oh yes, Bobri tree,

you're like, oh, I'm supposed to do this thing every day. It sounds like a real pain, because I can't get my mind to stay still. I didn't really have all those notions about meditation. I had a different kind of bias against it, frankly, because I grew up as an Indian woman. And I'd seen my parents meditating since like some of my earliest memories that I kind of blurried, walking into the bedroom

and seeing my dad already dressed, beds made any sitting there doing his meditation every morning. And as I developed, as I became, you know, grown up in a professional and a neuroscientist, I thought, that's great for them, but no, this is not, I'm not, that's not something I would do. I never even connected the dots until a colleague of mine, a really, eminent neuroscientists said that term meditation, one set a conference, and I was

like, what? Yeah. And then I got interested enough to start practicing myself. And I realized that one of the reasons it might have been part of the world's wisdom traditions, one of the reasons it might be actually, Stadika has been sticking around for thousands of years, is because it actually helps people do this thing that I didn't have access to anymore, pay attention. And because the practices, if you actually hear

that the instructions are all about attention, meditation, at least mindfulness meditation, is entirely about showing up in the present moment and guiding your mind and training your mind to do that. So once I started myself and I was like, you know what, this is related to what I do in the lab. Let's put it to the test. Let's put it to the most rigorous tests we can.

And then now study after study after study, more than 15 years later, we're continuing to find that it's helpful, not just to busy professionals like I was at that moment, but people like soldiers and firefighters and medical and nursing professionals that are operating especially during this COVID period of time, I mean, some of the most intensive, unrelenting circumstances you can imagine.

So this is why I find fascinating, right? Because you're talking about, at the end of the day, to pay better attention, to have better attention, to be more present, you should be meditating, right? Like people come on this podcast, I can't tell you how be meditating, right? Like people come on this podcast, I can't tell you how many people, right? And I'm like, what do you do? Like, give me some of your habits. I mean, I don't like 90% of the people I do this, I meditate. And I, that's when I lose my focus. Exactly. You're like, yeah, whatever. I'm like, whatever. Because first of all, I, and a lot of people I know, it sounds nice and theory. And I think it gets lost a little bit because now every social media influencer's on there.

I meditate, I meditate. It's lost, it's meaning. It's lost total meaning. And, you know, so then what happens people try, I've tried it many, many times. And within a kid, you know, 10 seconds, I won't even say a minute, I'm thinking about what am I gonna have for dinner or lunch or tomorrow or what's

Happening or I get anxious because I'm like should I have so many things I have to do I can't just sit here and like you know Om myself here and so And I think a lot of maybe type A personalities would feel that way Is there and so right so I would say I guess I have got a couple questions to it So I I was under the impression I have got a couple questions to it. So I was under the impression that there's other forms of meditation, like running is my meditation. So when I get into that state of my state of mind

while I'm running, then I can kind of calm down and that that would be my form meditation. That's the way I kind of rationalize my behavior. So I guess my question to you really is, are there, when you say mindful meditation, is that like a specific type or is there different types for different people or different modalities? Like, if I have anxiety, if I have this, if I have that focus problems, is there lots to do or are you just saying, maybe practice more Jennifer because it's a good idea. I mean, first of all, 10 seconds,

if that's really the amount of time, you're better than a lot of people that have been practicing meditation for 30 years. Really 10 seconds. So if you can actually focus for 10 seconds while you're meditating, that's a win. Really? So let's actually take a step back

because I think you're not the only one that feels like, yeah, that's great, but not for me. I mean, I was that person. I was a complete skeptic. In fact, I only was I a skept person. I was a complete skeptic. In fact, I was either skeptic. I wanted nothing to do with it, frankly, because in addition to the non-rigorous aspects of it, it was part of the very, I mean, aspects of my cultural background

are quite sexist. And I was not interested in, it's like meditation wasn't supposed to be practiced by women. And then I was like, there's no way I'm doing this. Like, no way, no thank you. No. So it was like a, you know, really trying to take a look at what is the actual thing we're doing?

And remember, I'm a neuroscientist. So for me, the aspects that were interesting were the brain training or cognitive training parts. So maybe if it would help before we talk about why it might be answering your questions about while there are other forums and is this special and all that? Maybe I should say a little bit more about what attention is and kind of really break down the various systems because that's where it connects so much with mindfulness.

I think that'd be great because you do have three subsystems. Yeah, so talk about that. You're a good student. Yeah. I told you I read the book and I like I said, I really, it speaks to me and I think it's very important. Well, that makes me feel good. So it is the case that this thing has been around.

This system has been around for a long time. And it allows us, if you think about what attention is, it really is the fuel for our ability to do things like think and feel and connect. And that sounds like, well, that's so complicated, set a stuff, but it truly is. So, how does it work? How does it actually do all these complex things? Well, it's broken down into three main systems that my field has discovered through, you know, many years of research,

decades of research. And so let's talk about what those are. And I was like to use metaphors for this because I think it helps kind of anchor around what we're really talking about. metaphors for this because I think it helps kind of anchor around what we're really talking about. So the very first system has to do with, like I said before, selecting information, but it's about the nature of the information. So for example, you're in a room and you know, somebody you want to talk to is on the left hand side of the room, you're probably going to devote your attention to that part of the room because you can catch the ride and try to have a conversation. So that would be an example, right side of the space versus the left side of the space, the metaphor I like to use is attention as a flashlight or a torch, depending on the part of the world that you're in. So the notion would be wherever

you direct that flashlight, you're going to get better information. It's going to be crisp, clear. If you're in a darkened path and you point a flashlight somewhere, that's a life saver that allows you to get information that's really, really relevant for what you're trying to do, which is probably make your way somewhere safe, if you're in a darkened area. And it ends up that that same ability, we can direct internally. So we can direct our flashlight internally. If I said right now, feel the sensations in the bottom of your feet. You're like, oh yeah, I can do that. Before I said that, I'm sure there were sensations happening in the bottom of your feet, but you were not aware of it.

So quickly, we can direct that flashlight to internal sensations, but also to thoughts, feelings, memories. And this is what I mean by attention is so important for thinking, feeling and connecting, because that's exactly how we process information. We need to select it to kind of get more granular details. So the focusing, really, you could call the flashlight, you're focusing ability, which most people when they hear that term, that's usually what they think. But there's actually two other systems of attention that are not that. But when I talk about them, I think you'll see, oh yeah, I can get out attentions like that. So the second system is actually the exact opposite of the flashlight, which is about narrowing and privileging, this I call the flood light.

So it's broad and receptive, and you're not really privileging any information. And the way to think about this kind of flood light is, and I've got a flood light right above my garage, which is kind of a motion detector. So anytime it goes off, it's like, oh, was there a neighbor walking by? Was there a raccoon? I don't necessarily have an. So anytime it goes off, it's like, oh, was there a neighbor walking by? Was there a raccoon?

I don't necessarily have an idea of what it could be, but whatever it is, it illuminates that for me. Or if you're driving somewhere or even walking, and you might see like a flashing yellow traffic light. Usually that means like, be cautious, be aware, be alert. And that's what this system is formally known as, the alerting system.

So when you're trying to be alert and your attention is functioning that way, you're broad and receptive and you're ready to act, but you don't necessarily know what to do next. You're waiting for something from the environment to tell you. So just to contrast. And again, we can be broad and receptive about the extra environment and even our internal environment. Like if I say, you know, is there anywhere in your body that you feel tension,

you can kind of kind of broaden out and you're like, well, maybe my left shoulder's a little bit tense, but, you know, again, you're just broadly allowing whatever occurs to rise to that conscious awareness. Right. So then the third system of attention, I think of it more like kind of a manager, it's formally called the executive system.

And it's because of this notion of an executive of a company, the job of the executive is not to do every individual thing, but to make sure that what's happening with the enterprise, like the goals of what you wanna do and the actual behavior align. And so if you aren't managing, there's gonna be a mismatch and then things are gonna go totally south, right?

So, and I refer to that one as a juggler. It's essentially keeping all those balls in there and a lot of us feel like that's what we're doing in our lives, we're ensuring that everything we do is aligned with what we wanna be doing in the moment. So, let's just start there. That's the way attention works. It's like complicated in these three,

but these three systems allow us to kind of parse the way we use it. And so then, let's go back to your question about mindfulness meditation. So the main thing to realize is like, well, what is the pain point of these systems? When do they have problems functioning properly? And the main problem tends to be because of something again

that is this very powerful thing the brain does, but when it happens on its own without us knowing it can be problematic, something called mental time travel. Right? So, and I, yeah, I thought you probably had that. Yeah, I was going to ask you about that. Yeah, but find that to be again, one of the things that I do a lot, right? Right.

And a very productive thing to do, actually,, we as human beings, we have this rare capacity to travel in time and actually travel into other people's minds. Like if I'm going to see, well, I wonder how Jennifer likes the way that I'm giving this answer. I just did a little mind-traveling, right? And to your mind, to take your perspective to kind of understand what you think of me. So mind-traveling, time-traveling, this is displacing us from the here and the now. But when we're doing this productively, let's just talk about time travel right now, we can rewind the mind of the past to kind of reflect on past experiences, to learn from them, or we can fast forward to get a sense of what we might do next plan, deliberate, think

about the future. As we're doing that, you know, things can be very useful, but under high stress circumstances, in fact, circumstances that this threatening, negative, and stressful consequences are quality to them. Now when we rewind the mind, we're not simply reflecting on the past. We are ruminating. We're all reliving. We're regretting and we're looping on that over and over again. Or when we fast forward, we're catastrophizing and worrying. And so now what happens is that your attention is not here, it is stuck in the past or in

the future. But everything that you need to do in your life is actually happening in this moment. Any action you have to take, any decision you have to make, any interaction you need to have, or even thought you need to have for the moment is happening in the here and the now. So what we want is the way to not have mind wandering always happened in this way,

and we want to develop an awareness of when it's happening. Vitamin water just dropped a new zero sugar flavor called With Love. Get the taste of raspberry and dark chocolate for the all warm all fuzzy all self-care zero self-doubt you Grab a with love today vitamin water zero sugar nourish every you vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass. Oh So like I'm sorry. I'm going to stop.

So for example, right, like you're talking about all of this and I'm listening. And so I do people technically, the mind, sorry, mental time travel. Do they think about the past or think about the future when kind of the time, the time allotment of being able to focus normally starts is like kind of like come into its end type of thing. And is that a bad I know you're saying it could be a good thing because it could be productive.

But the rumination part is what gets to be a problem. I think I do that like a new thing of the same thing over and over again. Are you saying that like mindful meditation helps train your brain so that when those things happen, you're more aware of it and you can stop it and it's... You're so right. So what I knew, exactly. You're going to exactly where I'm going to go next. Which is essentially that if the problem is mental time travel and getting hijacked into the past or the future, what you'd want is a training program that said, stay right here right now. And by the way, be aware of where your attention is moment

by moment. And that's the match that we found with mindfulness meditation. Formally, the way that I talk about what mindfulness is, and that's just this intrinsic capacity that all of our minds have. It's paying attention to present moment experience without editorializing or reacting to it. So I find this so calm. It's like, obviously you're saying it's so like matter-back,

but it's so complicated. And also when you're bored, right? Like people, like things get boring after a while. It's like it's, you're mind tends to wander, right? Like these are all things that when you're bored, when you're anxious, when you're all these things. But that's all fine. But let's just first understand, like like we do have this capacity to be in the here and the now. And I bet you could think of an example of something you do where you feel like completely present. Right, what I do is mean I like, or when I'm focused when I feel,

actually when I feel super, I can focus when I feel that whole flight or flight, like I have to right now, but then it can only happen for a very finite period of time or whatever. Like, do we something? But how often during a 24 hour period, right? Do you really, I get to do what you really like? Well, that's the point.

The point is you're going to need your attention much more than the moments that you really like. Sometimes it's going to be the moments you really don't like. That's my point. So that's why you've got to cultivate this capacity. So if what mindfulness is, it's like, we all have this capacity, you know you do. You just gave me examples of when it shows up in your life.

Can you train for that? That's the kind of innovative question, right? As somebody who knows about physical expertise and physical training, it's the same question. I'm not gonna call it training. So we're doing the same thing just for different kind of domains of the human experience. That was my question.

Okay, I found this thing called mindfulness. I understand what it is. What do you do to train for that? So that it's not only in those moments where I intrinsically may show up. It's any moment I might need it. So that, and that's really where the motivation for the term peak mind came from.

It's like, you need to have this thing on demand. And so you've got to train for it in the same way that you've trained to be physically fit so that when you need your body to function a certain way, like I was think of the soldiers that we work with, they don't train because they love it. They don't train because of any other reason other than they may need to take their buddy and drag him off somewhere where he could be in danger or she could be in danger. Totally. And so that's why we train.

We train for those moments that are the unexpected, the unknown and our lives are filled with those. So what I really loved about learning about mindfulness is that it gave a basic mental push-up to allow us to train all three of those systems of attention, just in one exercise. And I give like a whole bunch of exercises that you could try out. So now all of a sudden it just doesn't become this abstract thing of yeah, I can meditate. It's like, oh, I have this capability is built into my brain. I have all three systems of attention. I also have this capacity to be mindful. How could I bring more of that into my life so I can show

up when I want to and show up when I need to. So can you give us a couple techniques? Like just talk about some of the techniques. Okay, so then what would be like, okay, so here I am, 10 seconds in, now what do I do? Right, so let's think about what you actually did even in those 10 seconds, right? Usually you're sitting in some quiet place, your eyes are closed or at least lowered, trying to reduce the visual stimulation. And you're given the instruction to probably focus on something, let's say breath-related sensations.

So, no, I'm not good with that either. Well, let's just say that that's the, let's say that's gonna be my assignment for you. Okay. For this week, I want you to take one minute, not 10 minutes or 12 minutes, one minute, and we just sit quietly, lower, close your eyes. And I want you to have like a more,

like this is an important activity. So take it seriously, you know, upright, like to say upright, but not uptight. So you're kind of taking it seriously, just like you're having an important meeting, but now you are with your own mind. And you're going to just first start out by keeping that flood light broad and just check out the fact that you're breathing. It's happening. It's happening all the time. So you're just tuning into the fact that you're breathing.

And then you're gonna pick a breath-related sensation that feels kind of prominent. So it could be, you know, you could check it out right now, but is it the coolness of air, is it your shoulders, or abdomen, something that's breath-related, but that you can really feel strongly and it's salient to your experience. Then for this one minute, you're gonna take that mental flashlight of attention

and just focus it there. Just keep it steady right there. So, can you do that? Trying right now, okay. Okay, so I'm gonna be focusing on. Is that the fact that I'm doing my breath? No, no, no, you're not focusing on doing your breath. You're actually queuing in to a sensation,

like the coolness of air, like feels something, like, start just now I see. So just a kind of pinpoint one thing and like, and then focus on that. And not think about, I didn't say think about focusing on it, just literally, like, that's where my attention is, just like if you were washing your children at the park and you see where they are, you're on your attention is on them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're not thinking about what they're doing, you're just looking at them. Same idea, but now you're focusing on your breath. So that's what you're doing next. Next instruction, when your mind wanders to whatever else, take that flashlight, return it back.

Okay. That was so much easier. Sent that down. Yes. That's how long. Wait. So how long do you meditate the day by the way? Right now I'm meditating 12 minutes a day. You're doing the 12 minutes, okay. What were you doing? Like how long, I know people who like to do 20 minutes as they're practiced. That's right, there's plenty of things to do. So anyway, it's not, it's simple but not easy. That's the first thing I'll say,

but notice what I didn't say. What I didn't say is if you happen to be one of those weird people whose mind can't just do this, then you might have to redirect your flashlight. I totally normalized as I said, when your mind wanders and it could be a nanosecond, I don't care how long you were on the breath,

this important piece, the win is to notice, oh, I'm not there, bring it back. So what we did in that short exercise is we exercised the flashlight, we exercise the flashlight, we engage the flashlight, we kept the flood light present, and then that manager that executive function keeps us on track. So repeatedly, over and over again, we're exercising all three of those systems. And the win.

So, most people focus on the fact that they get caught up on the fact that their flashlight isn't staying where it's supposed to. It's like, oh, it's all over the place. I don't care about that part. Really what I care about is that you notice where it is in every moment. And when you've decided that you want it to be on breath-related sensations, you move it back. Now, doing this is not so that Jennifer can be an amazing Olympic-level breath follower,

like nobody cares about the breath. But now when you want to look into your six year olds eyes and figure out what's going on, you're fully there, all of you is there. You have trained for this moment to be fully available for whatever is needed. You're not distracted away. You can actually be there when you want to.

Right, because you can bring your focus back. Right, but the wind is noticing that you're not there. That's the thing that most people don't see to get. It's like the reason we can't pay attention isn't because we lack the capacity to focus. It's that we don't know where we're focusing. So one of the first flat practices that I offer, which is very similar to what I just guided you through,

it's called find your flashlight. Where the heck is it? If we spend a lot of our energy feeling like we're all over the place, but we don't realize it's because the flashlight is not only going to where I want it to, but it's getting yanked around all over the place. And things like threatening, stressful, negative, self-related, even exciting, and interesting things, yank the flashlight. So, you know, our world is filled with our flashlight gets pulled, but we're trying to direct it somewhere. That's the experience of being human. So, I hope that answers your question regarding what mindfulness and why does it relate to attention?

I understand. I'm thinking about other things because I'm thinking about like with all the social media happening and it's just getting more. Like every day there's a new platform even like popping up, right? And with our minds, we're supposed to be able as now like people who are in any profession to be like, to be somewhat proficient in Instagram, on Facebook, on TikTok, on Now Clubhouse, on this one, on that one, because our attention is so spread out, it's even more difficult. Have you seen, I'm curious what the actual increase in rise has been in the last five

years, eight years, and people's lack of attention. Has it gone up 10,000 percent? Do you want to know how much people's attention spans have changed over the last 15 years in smartphones? Zero. Zero? Zero. Our attention spans are no different. Evolution doesn't work at that scale.

The fact that you feel pulled by different platforms where you feel stressed by the fact that there's a lot of stuff in stimulation and environment is a sign that attention is working actually exactly as it should. Because think about why it evolved. It evolved to allow you to do what you wanna do, but pull you away when something else important

is coming up. But now social media companies and social media apps are designed because they know the nature of attention. That's why, why do you think your face is on all the social media apps? Because you are attracted to your self-related functioning. Not you Jennifer, I mean all of us. Oh no, I agree with you.

And what do you think gets us? What gets our attention pulled away, a threatening or fear-inducing headline, potentially something related to maybe the broad category of like sex drugs, rock and roll? Anything that is in our like evolutionarily selected for attention goes there, but that's not a flaw of attention. That's how it was designed. No, right. So when you hear that ding, ding, ding,

then you might have to know. But it's not even the dopamine hit. I mean, the dopamine hit may be, may or may or may not be real, but what happens is, Oh, if you don't think it is, or, well, I mean, people definitely get that little, it's like a, what happens in, you know, slot machines.

Right. Like the notion that there might be a reward, but the thing that happens before that is attention just went there. The reason it went there was because it's seeking something. Right. It's a seeking or wanting system. But that's, I can't think wrong with that. So you're telling me with all of this, all the different social media, all the technology

that are phones, everything else, you're telling me that our attention is just the same as it was like 20 years ago. Yes. It has a capacity to pay attention is the same, but let me explain that. It may not feel like you can pay attention the same. Why? Because that same flashlight that you used to be able to sit down and say, I'm going to write this report and you didn't have the ding of the phone or the you know whatever notification popping up or text messages Even you didn't have that stimulation pulling it, but you still hold that capacity

So this is the puzzle of modern life the puzzle modern life is okay my attention is the same I still have these capacities. I have all this extra simulation. Right. How am I going to actually manage it? Most people think or most advice is Take your phone and like, you know, put it under your bed or throw it in the trunk of your car or break up with your phone. It's not going to work. Probably it's not going to work first and foremost because we need our phones. We need to live. It's a modern life requires it. So what's the next thing you might be able to do to manage this happening? Well, the first thing you might think about is related to that

mindfulness practice we just talked about. Find out where your attention is moment by moment. manage this happening. Well, the first thing you might think about is related to that mindfulness practice we just talked about. Find out where your attention is moment by moment. That'll give you those choice points to realize, okay, just because the notification came right now and my brain is naturally doing what it does, getting pulled in that direction, I still have that executive control that says, I noticed right now in this moment that my mind has moved to the phone. Is it necessary? Is it aligned with my goals to pick it up?

And the answer may be yes, then you should grab it. But the answer may be no. And then you got to redirect back to what you were doing. And that is a hard thing to do, which is why we need to exercise for it. So it's the redirection. It's the two things. It's the noticing and then the redirecting. Right. The noticing and the redirecting. So to the point where it doesn't matter what is pulling

your attention, it doesn't matter if it's social media or if it's a dog or a different. Yeah, it's like your test line. You're like, yeah, I noticed that that's happening. That doesn't mean I'm going to act on it. I have a choice of whether to act on it. And how about these things like they say multitasking, right? Don't multitask because if you multitask, it will cause this to happen on it. And how about these things like they say multitasking, right? Don't multitask because if you multitask, it will cause this to happen as well. Your brain, you can't, you can't. Think about, we help people,

what you're doing when you're trying to, and I really feel for people that think that multitasking is good for you because it's couldn't be further from the truth. Right. Multitasking is the worst thing you can do for your attention. Remember what I said,

that attention's designed to kind of recalibrate everything else the brain does in line with what it's currently attending to. So like we know this from just simple experiments where we show people faces, the whole rest of the brain gets calibrated to face. If you show somebody a book, it gets calibrated to a book. So it is really changing the configuration of the brain.

And I like to think of it as like, I mean, to make it really tangible, it's like if you had a studio apartment, think of the brain as a studio apartment. And the studio apartment does lots of, you can do lots of things. You can throw a little dinner party. You can cook an important meal. You can actually work there. But when you have to do those things, you're going to rearrange the furniture to optimize for that task, right? If you're cooking, you're going to have like your food's going to be everywhere, and you're going to have prep space, et cetera. But now it's bedtime, we're gonna put all that away. In some sense, those are two different tasks.

There's the cooking task and the, getting ready for bed task. And the reconfiguration for those is energetically costly and real. So when you multitask, you're trying to do both those at once, which you cannot, because you only have one flashlight. You do not have 10 flashlight. so if it's potentially demanding, you can only keep your attention on one thing at one time.

But you're requiring all this reconfigurating. Like, your rearranging the furniture over and over again, it is exhausting. And what we see is that when people try to do this, they tend to have less and less attention, and they make more errors. They're slower. There's a lag time between going back and forth.

So if you feel already fragmented and overwhelmed, you're going to make that go up by multitasking. Right. So then what happens with people like entrepreneurs, or people who have side hustles, when they're like, we're living in LA, perfect example, everyone has. No one is what they say they are. You'll go anywhere anywhere I know I'm not really I don't really work a star

but I'm a producer I don't really like do this I'm like when someone's trying to do too many jobs or like does that then lower their attempt that would lower their ability properly for success down the road because they're too fragmented, right? And they're not, they're tired after your brain gets tired, I would imagine. Yeah. And I'm not saying, you know, some things in life like you can't help it. Like as a parent, you can be trying to do work. But if your child needs something, you're going to get up and go do it. And you're going to be interrupted. But your work will be affected by that.

Your work will be affected. That's the first thing to notice is like when you can, and you might not always be able to, but when you can monotask, monotask, don't miss your opportunities to monotask. When you're trying to do deep work, shut off all those extra notifications, put your phone to the side, put it on silence, advantage yourself. So the chances of you being able to pursue a line of thought in whatever work you're doing are possible. The problem is people think, oh, I shouldn't do that. I should allow myself to kind of go back and forth. That's when I'm saying, no, it's not helping you.

It's actually making things worse. Right. So then people who are trying to do like, they're working their day job, okay? And then they want to have a dream to do something. Is it better for that person just to quit that job and focus all their attention? I know and I don't think it's hard because, you know, real life happens, right? You need to make money. You need to stain yourself.

But the truth is, is the percentage of, or the possibility of success way higher when you focus just on that one thing versus trying to do two things, three things because again, you're attention. But let me just diminish it. With stress, mood, blah, blah, blah. And blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,

stress, mood, I see, I can't forget. But, no, it's stress, mood, and threat. Threats, yeah, you got them, you got them. You got them, yeah, yeah. But what I was't put for you. But no, it's stress mood and threat. Threats, yeah, you got them. You got them, mom. But what I was going to say is, okay, first is this, you are never doing multiple things at once that are potentially demanding. It may feel like you are.

The word multitasking is a myth. The thing you're actually doing is called task switching. Your brain is not capable of multitasking. So if what you're actually doing is task switching, know that and then try to minimize the times that you have to task switch. It doesn't mean you'll never task switch in your life. So if you've got like your main thing and your other thing, know that when you're doing one thing and you're trying to go back and forth, it's like yanking that flashlight and

rearranging that bedroom, you know, that studio apartment, right? It is going to have consequences. So I think I'm all I'm saying, I'm not going to tell people how to live their lives, but I will say, no, that what you're doing by default, just should happen to do that. Doesn't mean it's the right way. And it's not even the best way for you to be successful in anything you do. No, all right.

But you aren't multitasking. No, that that's not true. You are not, if it's intentionally demanding. Now, walking, like we were talking earlier about walking on the treadmill, most of us that know how to walk will not have trouble walking and talking at the same time. But if I put you on the edge of a cliff and said, walk and talk, that's a lot harder because you have to pay attention to the walking task. Right.

Autopilot. Like, some things are obviously on autopilot. When exactly. When it's over learned, we can dial down the need for attention engagement. But most things that we call multitasking, they require our attention. Even if it's just having the phone sitting there beeping at you every time that happens, it grabs you, then you got to go back. And then it grabs you and you got to go back.

So do you need to do that right now? Maybe you do. It's true. It's true. It's true. It's true. More from our guests, but first a few words from our sponsor. Entrepreneurs are always on the lookout for effective new techniques and ideas to level

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Social media, whatever else. So then, can we talk about these things that you do talk about how your attention change, like where your attention changes your perception, right? So can we talk a little bit about that rule aspect? Yeah, yeah. It goes back to what I was saying a little while ago, it's kind of a weird thing to say, Like, what, my attention changes my perception? Yeah. I mean, think about when somebody is hearing you versus listening to you or looking at you versus really observing. I mean, those are qualities.

We can, we know what that feels like. When somebody's actually listening to us, we know what that feels like versus, it's like, yeah, yeah, the words words were registering, but not actually understood. I think my husband, sorry, going, well, I've been on the giving and receiving end of being, right? Right. Like, so that's like the whole thing. You're not listening.

You're like, you can hear me, maybe. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But here's the other thing to remember. Remember, we talked about those three systems of attention in the brain. Those are what we call call mutually antagonistic. They fight each other. If you are really, really focused, if I'm laser focused on something,

I'm actively suppressing the brain networks that are broad and receptive or managing. If you are really invested in something and somebody walks into a room, invested in busy doing something focused on it, somebody walks into a room, invested in busy doing something focused on it. Somebody walks in the room and says something to you, it will take you a beat to figure out what they're saying. And that is not because the person doesn't care about you, because I certainly know that I've been the person that it's not heard, what was said.

It's because the brain literally needs an extra moment to recalibrate because the flood light registers something but barely, so now the flashlights got a shift over. So when I say that attention affects perception, it's that literally as early as 100 milliseconds, so 100,000ths of a second, your brain responds differently when you're paying attention versus not.

And then that cascade just goes throughout the way you're trying to do it. It permeates everything from that point. Exactly. Attention, K everything from that point. Exactly. Attention, Croger Shoppers. Did you know there's a world of innovative services and patient care right in store?

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how do you pay attention to attention? How do you really practice it? So you're saying, do we need to do this daily? Do we need to be meditating daily, even if it's for like a minute and then add on? Well, look back at the title of the book, what I'm suggesting, and it's not just my recommendation, it's based on study after study that we did. We asked people, and these are people that are high stress,

high demand people, like all those groups that I described to you We said okay, you're gonna join this program and we want you to for the eight weeks of this program or the four weeks of this program Meditate do mindfulness meditation practices like the one we were doing for 30 minutes a day and Nobody did him for 30 minutes a day. Yeah, right. God But we said put that program before he did many just said no no thanks. Yeah, but we look to see Well, first of all as a group the people that did the program did benefit their attention got better by how much Thomas did they benefit about 10% About a 10% improvement in their ability to pay attention that is

Signific that doesn't sound like much. Well 10% I Thought it would be way higher than that. Think about it, like 10% over, unless I'm not calculating. Well, but think about the kind of consequences we're talking about, okay? So, for example, these are, let's say, soldiers. Right. And if they are missing the right target or shooting at the wrong target, 10% of the time,

think about the devastating consequences. That's a good deal. Or a neurosurgeon. Or a neurosurgeon, or a teacher, or frankly even a parent, if you are really missing stuff, a tenth of your time, that's not that good. I guess if you break it down like that, that makes a big difference.

It's one in 10 times you're not there. You're making, well, you're actually making mistakes a lot more often, but you're recouping that. Anyway, so what I was saying is that they didn't practice the amount of time we said. They were all over the place. Some practiced a lot, some practiced little. And then what we did is we said, okay,

give us the honest truth. What did you actually do? And then we said, at what point, at how many minutes per day do we start seeing significant benefits? And at what point do we see really no change at all? And it was really 12 minutes started being this like important mark.

If people did more than 12 minutes a day, they benefited and the more they did, the more they benefited. If people do it 20, 30 minutes, it's definitely gonna benefit you more. But if you did less than 12 minutes, it really had no impact. So that's why I encourage people to build up

to about 12 minutes a day, study after study finds that doing that about three to five days a week helps your attention. And if attention is the fuel for your ability to think, feel and connect, and it really is, well, you want more of that. You want it on demand when you want it. Wow. So it is actually like physical activity. It activity. It's very much. You know, when people ask me, well, how long should I do? And it's the same kind of it's literally it's having the same and sometimes people ask me these like, these questions, I'm like, don't it's assumed so it seems so like basic. I feel like you probably think to me, girl, don't you understand? I said,

I don't know. No, I think you understand me because you understand the way the body works. You understand that there needs to be a certain threshold. But you're right, because if someone says, well, can I do seven minutes of exercise a day? Yeah, go ahead. Well, you can, but it's not gonna do a damn thing, or every day is very daunting, though. So when you just said now, three to five times, at least like you work up to it.

But you definitely work up to it. To make it a habit. That's right. And in the book, I give, I mean, again, based on a lot of 15 years of research, like, what can you do for the ramp up? If you have, you know, what can you do daily to start yourself even having this practice that you do? You don't want to start off. You could start. You could try, try with 12 minutes a day, but I encourage people to do, if they think they can do five, do two and a half minutes. If you

think you can do two minutes, do one minute. Break, like make it a very reasonable goal and attach it to something that you do every day. Right. Because then you don't have to worry about like, where am I gonna fit it in? Like I would say to people, you know, like my dentist said to me once, like, floss one tooth, you know,

and I'm just like, I'm not gonna floss one tooth. I'm gonna get out the floss. I'm just gonna do the whole thing. Do the whole thing. So it's that idea, yoke it to something that you do every day, and then build up. And really, the most important thing about building the habit is get that experience of the win, which is like, I did it.

I had a one minute goal, and I did it. Don't miss out on the chance to feel good about that, because then I'll keep you coming back for more. Absolutely true. I totally agree with that. That's what anything was like fitness, weight loss, anything it is. It's like the best motivation is you actually like

following through with what you say you're gonna do and like just keep it up. I think attaching it to something else like that you do in your day. So then getting back to the same thing. There's a habit. So how do we limit the distractions? We just keep on practicing that,

and that would kind of over time just help us limit out, like kind of limit the distractions that we have during our... I mean, you're gonna have much more awareness of when you are right now defaulting to responding to those distractions. You're gonna say, I don't wanna do that, right? I don't wanna go pick up the phone right now. I don't wanna actually respond to that email right now.

You have more choice points in your life. And that is not like a minor thing. It's like, it gives you more presence in your life. And it shows up as like, I'm more here than I was. Because I'm not, and by the way, all of the things we've been talking about so far have all been distractions in the external environment, way all of the things we've been talking about so far have all been Distractions in the external environment right like the phone of this or that

Remember what I said before that the flashlight is the same way on the internal environment is the external environment So now it may be not a notification on your phone, but a thought that pulls your attention. That's true That's more actually it may be exactly It's actually not so much the external. I just been been focusing on those things, but it's really what's happening. It is. And then what you can actually do, if you practice these practices, and you really cultivate the ability to direct that flashlight,

notice when it's pulled away, and then redirect it back. If you have that muscle, that really that strengthening of that attention muscle, now when that thought appears in your mind, that says, I don't know what's going to happen. The worry or whatever it is, you can think, you can notice that, oh, wow, look at that.

I went to the worry and I'm spending a lot of time here. Then you've got some choices. Can I redirect the flashlight back? And by doing that, by the way, you're not suppressing, you're not making a story up. You're just taking your attention to moving it over here. It's like you're moving it back to something else. You're never going to be able to do that if you don't notice that you've moving it back to something else. You're never gonna be able to do that if you don't notice that you've done it,

you've moved away in the first place. It's the noticing, I think, is the number one. Like you said earlier. And that's what I mean by pay attention to your attention. It's paying attention to where it is moment by moment. There's no shortcut, just like there isn't really for physical activity. Right, there's no shortcut with anything in life,

to be honest, right? Yeah. So you're staying, so someone came on the podcast recently and they're like, when someone has negative thoughts about themselves, how do they, though, that was the, that was the conversation we were having. And so I was like, okay, how do you stop negative thoughts? And she's like, you say, one, it's happening. I'm not going to think about this anymore. And then move on. And I thought to myself, oh, does it work that? It doesn't sound like, or like when people,

or other people who are like, you know, how do you change the way, you know, when people have like bad thoughts about themselves, or they feel less than or insecure, well, start thinking positively. It's very like, it sounds very like kind of polyonic, right? Like, oh yeah, just do it. It's much more difficult it sounds very like kind of polyonic, right? Like, oh, yeah, just do it. It's much more difficult than

I would say. I would say. It's not just difficult. It's a bad idea. Like I would say, don't do that. And I don't want you to look what I want you to tell me. You're the neuroscientist who specializes in this. I want you to start out. Let's just first think about what I have. Let's start that again. Do that again. I want you to start that. Think about what, let's just first think about what happens. That should be a sound bite.

Let's start that again. Do that again. Exactly. It's so true. Please. So, the idea that you should push away, deny, or suppress negative thoughts is a very, very bad idea. And it's an ineffective approach.

I call it a failed strategy. So why is that? It really does come back to your attention. When I say, and the studies that have been done on this, by the way, I've been around for a very long time, a very common one is like, it's called a white bear study. So you basically bring people into the lab and you say, okay, for the next five minutes,

you want you to think about anything but a white bear. Do not think about a white bear. Repeat to yourself, don't think about the white bear, and then you stop them and say, what are you thinking about right now? What do you think they say? White bear. So the reason that suppression and denial don't work

is because frankly, even though you think you're not, you're actually bringing it to the center of your mind. Totally true. It's like when I say, I am not going to eat that piece of cake. I'm not going to eat that piece of cake, and then I eat the entire cake. It's true, though. Why do we do that?

Though, why it's like if we do that, even though we clearly don't want to be doing something. Right. We really don't. And then we even tell ourselves, don't, don't, don't. Why does that make us do it even more? Well, because you're highlighting it to your attention system and your attention guides all these other behaviors.

You're basically saying to the executive control, like, yeah, you can override your other goal of not eating the cake, go ahead and eat it. It's so prominent. So the solution isn't gonna be to bring it more to the front of your mind by saying, don't, don't, don't. It's gonna be handling it in a different way. So how could you handle it differently, right?

It's not willpower, it's not discipline. Well, it is a kind of discipline because you're gonna practice the way to do this. But so the first thing is to notice the strong urge that exists. Not deny it, say it is here. The desire for this cake or whatever it is, is really here.

And I think about it more. More about thought of yourself, like you know. And I think about it more. Or a bad thought of yourself. That's what I was going to say. I'm like, I'm not good enough for that job or that guy, no wonder this guy doesn't want to be with me or sadness. Or lonely. Okay, that would be a far less. So let's do that.

Well, I'll tell you one that happened to me recently. I have a 19 year old and he went away to college and during that period of time, I was so sad. I was so sad. And of course, you might start out by saying, well, just don't be sad. Just don't be sad. Get back to work.

Focus on what you're doing. Don't be sad. Of course, it didn't work. And for me, it kept coming up during my meditation practice where the mind would wander. And first of all, I kept noticing, oh, look at that. When the mind wanders, that's exactly where it's going.

It's going back to that sad thought. So then I had like this kind of shift in the way that I oriented toward it. I said, I'm going to actually take some time and I'm going to allow. I'm just going to allow that feeling to be present. Like, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to allow it. I'm not going to think about it. I'm not going to push it away. I'm just going to sit here with it. Like, I'm here. I'm here. I'm gonna sit here and I'm gonna allow it. I'm not gonna think about it. I'm not going to push it away. I'm just gonna sit here with it.

Like, I'm here. I mean, she's here, just breathing. And she's got this thought that's here that says, I feel very sad that, you know, Leo's not here right now. And a shift started happening. I noticed my capacity to hold that. I wasn't pushing it away.

It was here with me. And then on its own accord, it kind of dissipated. It just't pushing it away. It was here with me. And then on its own accord, it kind of dissipated. It just kind of went away. And then it comes back. And then I noticed it again. I allow it. But I oriented it to it so differently. I didn't focus on it and say, you go away. Why is it thought there? Over and over again, I allowed and accepted that it was here. And then I let it, you know, neural activity is constantly changing. And I, and we know this. So a really handy thing to do is first cultivate that noticing capacity. And then stay with that noticing. Don't hyper fixate on it. Don't push it away because pushing it

away, actually, everything you're pushing away is actually in your attention. just allow. And I promise you that the mind will shift, the mind does, that's its nature. And it'll start changing the way you have a relationship with your own mind. And you know, we do this already. We might even do it with our own children. Like, if there's something going on and they're upset about something,

you know that it's gonna pass. Like, they're not gonna always be upset and they couldn't find their favorite blanket. But you kind of are there to be a safe space to just allow the sadness or frustration or whatever. You're just witnessing it. And if we do that for ourselves, we start having a lot more capacity to live our lives without feeling so compelled by things, so pulled by things, or so living in a state of

denial. Would you give us an example though? That's a good example of, that's more of a passing moment though, your son, because at the truth of the marriage you've got a son who's in college, probably a very nice boy, obviously close with him, give me how that would work if someone has really bad thoughts about themselves, would they feel less than? Because those thoughts, those kind of feelings when you sit with it can have other type of... So let's talk about what you do in that case.

And it's actually, it was within the example I gave because you treat it the same. So this is something formally called the term is de-centering. But let me just describe what I mean by that. So, essentially, the shorthand is thoughts are not facts. That's the first way to think about it. And de-centering means basically, you're going to take the observer's view of your mind's content.

So I'm sitting here and I'm actually kind of having a bird's-eye view of my experience. I'm gonna say to myself, Amishia is feeling sadness right now or Amishia is feeling lonely. I'm watching that. I'm not experiencing it in the same way when I'm watching it occur. And that's, it's de-centering or diffusing. I'm kind of unyoking my direct experience with it, because I'm over here watching it. And as you do that, you start being able to look at it in a different way.

It's almost like when you forget that you're watching a movie and then you realize, oh, that's on the screen. That's like not me. That's, I'm immersed in that thing. Our thoughts are just things created by our mind. We do not have to believe everything we think. We do not. And we forget that.

We somehow think if I thought it, it must be true or real and I'm compelled to live in that reality. Well, try this de-centering practice. Try this bird's eye view of your own experience and see what happens. My sense is just like happen with me with my son. And I'm seeing on me, she's a caring mom

and she's having a sad thought, right, about her son. And that shifted me. I was like, oh, I was over here. It was like not stuck in whatever it is. And it's even more important to do when it's self, a self, you know, damaging kind of thought. Because really, you have to remind yourself, thoughts are not facts. I'm going to say it again.

Thoughts are not facts. No, I like that. What do you think of like, transadental meditation and all these other types of meditation? Yeah. So do they work like? Well, so, I would say I happen to study this form of meditation because of its links to attention. It was the different.

Well, so, so, first of all, what is meditation? And I want to just kind of demystify that term again, as a neuroscientist, meditation is engaging in a certain kind of activity with regularity to cultivate certain mental qualities. It's just, I'm doing it because I want something to happen. Now, with mindfulness meditation, we're engaging in these practices

to be more present centered in this non-reactive, non-editorializing way. We're trying to get the raw data of what's happening, which means sometimes we've got a distance ourselves to say, oh, I'm not actually the world's worst person. I'm having the thought I'm the world's worst person. That's a more accurate account of your present moment reality. Right.

So that's what mindfulness is trying to do. Something like, let's say, compassion meditation is actually engaging in practices that allow you to feel the suffering of another person, for example, and work toward alleviating that suffering. It cultivates a different kind of mental state of a compassionate heart. Transcendental...

It's a different type. It's a different type. How many types are there? Many types. I mean, this is the world's wisdom traditions, right? I know, sure. So they're everywhere. So, and then, transcendental meditation, I mean, there is research on it. It's not my

area of expertise, but it's attempting to help you cultivate a transcendent quality, like something bigger than yourself. And there's many overlaps with mindfulness training. A lot of it has it with this sort of concentrated aspects. The pieces that I'm particularly excited about and I find very valuable with mindfulness is cultivating this capacity to notice, to really notice what's going on, and to do it in a way that is as ordinary and not storytelling as possible. Like not conceptually elaborating. That's the kind of formal way we talk about it. I'm adding a story about this moment, just like you were saying, I'm not, I'm thinking about my breath. You're'm thinking about my breath.

You're not thinking about your breath. You're just breathing. Right. And when I say focus on your breath, you're just taking that flashlight and saying, coolness, pinguiliness, itch. You know, whatever it is, it's just like you're just giving,

you're a data reporter back to yourself. Right. I mean, because there, people I know do this transadental, how about this Kundalini kind? What is that about? Not to say, I know you're not an expert in all meditation, but yeah, I mean, there's so many different people listening. Some people might be meditators already. So I'm curious, is there like, are all these different ones? Like I said, does this one help more this? Like attention, if you have an attention problem,

if you have ADD attention deficit or is this the mindful meditation as the one for you, not transadental? Well, I mean, if you have depression, anxiety, chronic pain, problems with your relationships, immune function challenges, or you want to live a longer life, the data suggests mindfulness training is a good way to go. This is not unitary because like I said, I happen to have the blends of attention on this broad topic of mindfulness.

Mindfulness has been studied for the last 55 years and the results are very consistently positive regarding its benefits. There are definitely benefits to doing, the reason that these things have been around for thousands of years is because they benefit people in different ways. I don't want to deny that.

But for me, in my interest, it was to see how do we help people, how can we train the mind, train the brain in a way that allows people to have more access to their present moment experience? Because whatever it is, a deep sadness, a frustration, an anger, or physical pain, you're going to have to deal with that moment by moment. Absolutely. So, I mean, it's not really a question. I'm not coming to you as saying, you know, there's all these different meditations and

I want to sell you the mindfulness brand. Like, I don't care. I don't care. I don't care. But I'm brain scientists. No, no, no, you're brain scientists. I'm just curious because I feel like if someone's doing one type and they want to switch over or if I'm someone who's, who knows, I'm not uncomfortable with this when people are doing these alms

and affirmations. Yours don't. But this is where you don't need a particular worldview. If you've got a breath and a body, you can do it. And in an attention system, you can do it, which is why it appeals to me because I didn't want to be engaging as a scientist, right? Any particular worldview. I mean, I don't need to have any particular worldview to focus your sensations, focus your mind on the sensations of the breath.

But I want to go back to something you said a while ago, regarding running as your meditation. Yeah. I knew you're going to say something about that. You never did. Yeah. So running is a really amazing activity, you know, I'm not really. I'm very injured right now from it, but that's the sad

point. In the world's history, people have been running for a good benefit for their mind and body. And you probably, you know, have been doing it for quite a while, which might lead to a repetitive yeah, exactly, exactly. But, um, and people say often, like, can I just practice this when I run? I'll feel all my breath related sensations. I'll feel the body moving. And I'll say 100%. You can do it while you run. You can do a mindful run.

In fact, the other thing that we do, I could, you can totally do a mindful run, but hold on. I'm going to say more. You can do a mindful run because we teach mindful walking. What you do with mindful walking is instead of focusing on the breath, you focus on the sensations of actually your feet touching the ground. You can do mindful eating where you're experiencing the sensory experience of the flavors in your mouth. It's about applying

that orientation of a present-centered data-gathering mode, where you're not telling a story about the experience or reacting to it. You're just there for the actual experience. So you can do it for anything. You can do it while you're running. Now Now here's the thing. The reason that I think it's important to do something that is what I would call stillness practice is because it allows it's almost like it's like heavy lifting for the brain. You know, there is nothing else going on. Like this is the thing. You've been sure. If you want to really experience your mind wandering, there's nothing more boring than paying attention to your breath. It's going to wander a lot. So if you want lots of wins, I'm like, ah, I noticed my mind wandered.

Get it back. Oh, I noticed my mind wandered. Get it back. That will happen a lot more often. I trust me, I know. Because I've done it so many times. It'll happen a lot more often. So a lot of more opportunities to notice

that mind wandering and come back. And what you cultivate through this, the thing that I think is really important, which you can cultivate parts of it while you're running. But what you cultivate through this is like, no matter what is happening, I can be here for it. I can create the worst story of myself. I can create the most doomsday scenario. It shows up in my practice when my mind is supposed to be focusing on the breath and I go

to this terrible thought. I can be here for it. I can notice it. It occurred. I can come back to the breath. It's like it creates what we call mental toughness. And you know, why is that useful? Because most difficult moments of our life, we need that. You cannot, I know you won't do this even though you run.

If you're in the middle of a difficult conversation that you know you need to be there for, you're not gonna go take off and run. You're gonna actually sit there and what your mind does in that moment, if you have practiced this capacity with your own arising thoughts, you're gonna be much better at being able to listen not just here and really take it in

in a way that I think you'll help. So basically mindful meditation also helps with mental toughness because it's teaching you, you're really training your brain. It literally is like training your brain. You're literally training your brain. You're literally training your brain. And like it's not fancy is actually what works is what I think is very interesting.

It's very ordinary. There is no bells and whistles. Like, you know, again, one of the of the dangers of Indian women with the topic of meditation I'm like, oh am I going to start levitating or something? It's always like, it's mystical. I'm like, I'm so sorry, but this is the most plain and ordinary thing of existence. And frankly, that's all we have. All we have is this moment in our lives. You know what I think this why I that resonates again so well for me is that I wrote a book, my first book was called No Gym Required, right?

And it was all about giving people simple, easy solutions to say, you know, more healthy, more fit. And there was, it was pretty basic. It was like, you know, like it was like squats, lunges, push-ups, eat, you know, eat the perimeter of, you know, when you're eat, go to the grocery store, go to the perimeter of the grocery store, like things that were like're eating, go to the grocery store, go to the perimeter of the grocery store. Like, things that were like common sense that weren't so common sometimes, right?

Exactly. And people were like not liking it because it was too basic. And I'm like, well, unfortunately, and now things, I mean, the truth, the people don't want to know are here that the fact, and it's just it didn't want to like it. It was just the fact that it wasn't sensationalistic. It wasn't a bunch of like magic pills and you know, do this, you know, with,

you know, sound your head and sing, you know, Mary had a little lamb and move your pinky and you're going to lose 20 pounds. People want like magic pills. And when it's, and then unfortunate part is like your brain, like your body, the basics is actually the most effective. And that's what works the best. When you try to fancy it up and like add all these bells and whistles, for who? For what? It's like for long-term, long jevety, what really makes gets the results. And in fact, the people who have the best, I'm going to take it to the physical, who have the best bodies who look the best, who are the healthiest. They're not doing anything fancy.

They're doing a squat, they're doing a lunge, and they're doing a plank, and they're eating a piece of chicken and some broccoli, and they're calling it a day. You know what I mean? Like, and a sweet potato or whatever. My point is, everything now has to become so much more commercialized to kind of stand out, right?

Like, how do I stand out to make a million or a billion dollars? And the reality is it's like this is what I like about this little thing. This is not like rocket science. It's literally for anybody and everybody who can, you can just sit down right now and just do it. You don't have to learn anything more than that. And I'm not coming at this as a, as a simply as a curious person. I'm coming at some, I'm coming at this as somebody who, then I'll research on top of it. Took this to the test and really wanted to see objectively,

not even people reporting that they feel better, but objective. Yeah. The brain basis suggests yes, this is actually changing people's brains and functioning so that it's healthier. Whether you're doing a dance to your favorite artist in the office parking lot, are being guided into Warrior I in the break room before your shift.

Whether you're running on your Peloton tread at your mom's house while she watches the baby, or counting your breaths on the subway. Peloton is for all of us. Wherever we are, whenever we need it, download the free Peloton app today. Peloton app available through free tier or paid to description starting at 12.99 per month. What are some of the other myths that you've,

like, are popular that you wanna, or can you dip to bunk? I think that's really important. Yeah, well, one of them you already mentioned, which is this notion of positivity in the context of dealing with our lives. So oftentimes, people will say that if I have a negative thought, I should try to replace it with a positive thought, or that that somehow is going to balance me. So, and then also, frankly, if you're in a very high stress situation,

people might say, well, if you're feeling stressed, like just you got to boost your mood a little bit, cultivate positive emotion. So think about all the good that might be coming out of the situation, or how might it go that could be even better since you don't know. First of all, I'd say those are fine activities to do. There's nothing really necessarily intrinsically wrong with them. But the problem for at least

the populations that I'm working with, which are high stress, high demand people. Remember what I said we were talking about earlier that attention actually gets depleted over high stress and high demand. It's very potentially costly to try to think on the bright side. So when you're requiring your attention to think up a different version of reality. And so it ends up and we've tested this now in a lab that under high stress circumstances, trying to be positive and cultivate positive emotion makes things actually get worse. Really that too.

Yeah. In fact, if we compare people that get positivity versus mindfulness, we find that mindfulness can under high stress. If you do nothing at all under high stress, you'll see that attention significantly declines in most people. Like we're talking academic semester, we're talking high pressure intervals. If something is demanding and continues, you're going to have less attention. When you then introduce something to say, oh, can we train them in a different way?

Well, positivity, it actually makes them degrade just like doing nothing does. So in some sense, it's like doing nothing under high stress. And mindfulness keeps people steady. Their attention just stays the same. Their mood actually also stays the same. Their stress levels don't go up even though the explicit circumstances may be more stressful. That's amazing. Does it also help?

I mean, I'm sure this would help. We didn't speak about this with people who like kind of like lose their shit fast or like impulsivity or reactionary. So that's the other thing. It kind of gets you take that flashlight and bring that flashlight internally and it kind of helps with being more calm.

Well, the end result, I think, after long-term is your more calm, but for me, I'll just tell you my personal journey with it. Because in some sense, as you become more aware of your own behavior, you're going to be more likely to align it with what you want to have happened. So, you know, you, you, you, you know, let's say you, something terrible happens like your, your, your, your houses leveled in a tornado. Of course, you're going to be devastated.

Like, you're going to have a strong emotional response, but just spill a cup of coffee. That's not the response you're going to have. Like it's not proportionate to the situation. So what you start realizing is like, okay, even if I'm having a strong response is this appropriate or necessary, and do I need to act on it, right? So little things like I feel very angry right now.

I'm writing a nasty text message or email. Should I actually send it? Like to have that second thought takes that awareness of noticing what is occurring right now. So the regulation of emotions. Exactly. The regulation of emotion is so, so key.

And what I've noticed in my own life is sometimes I won't catch it fast enough. I may snap. Like I'll may snap my husband or even my kid sometimes, I apologize much more quickly. And it's like I may snap. Like I'll may snap my husband or even my kid sometimes, I apologize much more quickly. And it's like I caught it. I just it's like the training left the station, the words are coming up, but I'm watching my mind saying, this is a strong reaction. This moment, probably a little too strong. Then I say, you know what? That was a very strong reaction. You didn't deserve it

and I apologize. And that changes a lot. You can't undo what you've said. But the awareness that you have in that next moment will make everything that could transpire a lot less terrible than if you didn't catch yourself. Absolutely. So that's where it's tied to the experience of calm, eventually yes, but calm in terms of your interpersonal dynamics for sure. Wow, this is so helpful. The book is called Peak Mind. It is out October 19th, right? And you've done some amazing work and you've helped, like you've talked to him, it was at like Souljur's NATO. I mean, everybody I feel like has been like, who else have you spoken with or like spoken to or dealt with everybody? A lot of different groups. And it works with the matter of how the most stressful to people in college, to neurosurgeon, to soldiers,

to, I mean, it's amazing. And it's only going to be 12 minutes a day if you practice and train. That's right. Thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I really appreciate it. Thank you. This is going to be a lot of fun. No, this is amazing.

The book is called Peak Mind. Where would people also find you if they want more information about you or your book or your works or your TED talk? You can watch your TED talk, it's very good. All of that they can find, if they can remember my first name, amishiamisagie.com.

Oh, that's so easy, of course. Wow. Well, thank you. I know that you're going off to do a bunch of other ones. She's doing Joe Rogan tomorrow. So I feel very honored that you came on before him. So thank you so much Yap Media Podcast Network. I'm Halataha, CEO of the award-winning digital media empire YAP Media, and host of YAP Young & Profiting Podcast,

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