Habits and Hustle - Episode 143: Amanda Knox – Exoneree, Writer, NYT Bestselling Author, Co-Host of LABYRINTHS Podcast

Episode Date: November 23, 2021

Amanda Knox is an exoneree, writer, NYT bestselling author, and the co-house of LABYRINTHS. In 2007, Amanda was wrongfully convicted of the murder of a 21-year-old British exchange student, Meredith Kercher, who died in the apartment she shared with Amanda in Perugia, Italy. Amanda discusses the challenges she faced in jail for 4 years. We discussed topics like stoic meditation, negative visualizations, and the creative mental exercises she used to get through this hellish period of her life. It’s truly impressive hearing Amanda’s ability to try to empathize with the people who had wronged her and the professional way she carries herself, especially after having every reason to be resentful. She’s an extraordinary woman and it was an honor to have her on the podcast.  Youtube Link to This Episode Amanda’s Instagram Amanda’s Website ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins, you're listening to Habits in Hustle, Fresh It! Guys, today on the podcast, I've been waiting for this one. This was so interesting and captivating. We had Amanda Knox, who is an exonery, a journalist, a public speaker, and author of the New York Times best-selling memoir, waiting to be heard. If you're not familiar with her story,

between 2007 and 2015, she spent nearly four years in an Italian prison and eight years on trial for a murder she did not commit. Her story is not just compelling, but it is just eye-opening to what happens in the legal system. And this was a really, really interesting podcast. And probably, if not my favorite, the top two two please listen to this podcast I promise you you will not be disappointed here you go. Okay today we have a very special episode I've been really looking forward to speaking to this one

this is we have Amanda Knox I'm sure you guys have heard of her and if you haven't literally go Google it because it's, or don't go Google it. Or don't Google it, that's gonna say, right? Or maybe not. Your story is so fascinating, it's so compelling. I'm so happy that you came on this podcast because I was riveted by your entire journey,

your whole thing for as long as it was going on, and I hate to say that, right? But I was riveted. And so the fact that I'm sitting here with you right now is like, it's like surreal. You know? Well, thanks for having me. I'm glad Jason connected us. I know. We have a mutual friend, Jason Flom,

who, thank you, Jason, for introducing me to Amanda. Yeah, so I don't even know where to begin. I'm so curious about your life after what happened. Thank you, Jason, for introducing me to Amanda. Yeah, so I don't even know where to begin. I'm so curious about your life after what happened. But again, I'm just gonna start with, Amanda was wrongfully accused of murdering her roommate, Meredith Kircher, and it was 10 years ago. No, 15 years ago.

It was almost 15, so 14 years ago, 2007. And actually, today is November 2nd. I don't know when you're going to actually be posting this. But this is the anniversary of the day that I came home and found my apartment at crime scene. To the wow, really. Yeah. So Meredith was murdered on the night between November 1st and November 2nd. Well, that's a whole living hell that I mean, I want to kind of just walk through that whole thing because obviously this is what's, you know, that's unfortunately what kind of people will remember you've ignored, right? And I want to understand what you're doing now and how you've kind of like, how you live your life really. So we're just going to go chronologically, I guess, through it.

However, I want to say, I did read a piece that you did for the Atlantic, which was so well-written. Thank you. You're welcome. And it really kind of shed light on how crazy corrupt that whole situation was. So first of all, and I'm in first of all, you also had two other roommates. Yes. So how come nothing was ever spoken about with these other roommates? Well, they were Italian. They were older than us. They worked for a law firm. And I think also they, one of them, Laura, was away in Rome the night that it happened.

Um, Philomena was with her boyfriend. Um, so she basically had the same alibi I had. Yeah. But, you know, the reason why I, I mean, there are a million reasons why I was singled out, but I think it's like where to even begin. I know, that's exactly how I feel. I'm like, I don't even know where to begin. I have so many questions for you. But that's one thing.

One of them I got, they were out of town. But why did the other one not get single doubt? The other roommate. But why did you get single doubt? Well, I mean, that's like speculating into the psychology of the investigators who looked into the case. And like, ultimately, I can't speak

to what was going on in their mind. What I can say is there are certain things that they say is the reason. They say that they had an investigative intuition that I was somehow involved in this crime. They said things like, oh, she smells like sex. And oh, she is not acting the way that we would expect someone to act here, you know, filamena, my other roommate is like crying hysterically and instead of crying hysterically, I'm sort of shell shocked and like gaining comfort from my new boyfriend, Raphaelie. And so they looked at me and said, well, she is not acting the way that we expect her to

act. However, like one of the things I want to point out about like wrongful convictions in general is that when an investigator is making a judgment about you in a crazy circumstance, like suddenly you come home and find your roommate murdered, like they're making a subjective observation about you and they're viewing you through the lens of suspicion. So I felt like no matter what I did, it came across to them as wrong. So when I cried, it was wrong. When I didn't cry, it was wrong. When I got comfort from my boyfriend Raphael A, it was wrong. When I didn't, when I was calling my parents, it was wrong. So I'm not exactly, I can't really speak to like what they were thinking when they thought

this person, what I can speak to is the fact that from the get go, they were under pressure to solve this crime immediately. And I was the one who called the cops. I was the one who first came home and discovered this crime scene. So I wonder if there was even an aspect of, well, the person who calls the cops is like the first person that they investigate and think, okay, first person at the scene of the crime, like, could this be the person? But again, I don't wanna like speculate into their mindset.

I just know that they claim that I was not acting like an innocent person should. And a lot of people have made that claim about me. I think that that's actually a really irresponsible way of looking at the issue because ultimately, I was not the one who was making decisions about how this investigation should take place and what sort of things counted as evidence or not. That was the investigators and that was the prosecutor. They were the ones who, from the very get go, took this case in a really weird and unsubstantiated direction,

instead of allowing the evidence to guide them on their own theory-making. Well, and also, just to what you said, what was interesting, of course, I understand that part, and the fact that you were American, you were a 20-year-old girl, I never really understood that, because they highlighted so much how your reaction was. That was like a huge point that they kept on making. And even though there's been so much evidence about how people respond to all sorts of different tragedies and traumas, so many

different ways that was completely overlooked that you were a 20-year-old girl from another country. And I also, I feel like I feel badly because I know that you have to answer these questions all the time. And here I am again, when are you in the same situation asking you the same questions and you're so gracious for even answering them.

But so thank you. I'm cognizant of that. But thanks for being cognizant of that. I know, I feel bad because I'm like, I'll fuck you right in again. I'm like, I gotta ask for the same questions and she's like, you know, has to kind of go over and over and over again.

But hopefully that everyone has a different audience and different people and it will help everyone to understand because obviously you work is honorated. But and for the record, like I also understand why, the question why and I understand why it's important to interrogate this issue. If it didn't just affect me, I feel like I would maybe push back more on like,

you know what, I don't have to answer that question. Right. Instead, I'm more interested in it because I feel like this happens time and time again in wrongful convictions cases. This doesn't happen in my case, where there is this sort of victim blamey aspect to the wrongful conviction,

where authorities will point to a wrongful convicted person, which means an innocent person who has been accused of a crime they didn't commit, and say, you're the reason, like you're suspicious. We're not at fault for having suspicions about you. It's your fault that we had suspicions about you. And I want to push back against that impulse and say, no, if an innocent person is wrongly accused,

it's because you projected guilt upon an innocent person. You decided to view whatever their behavior was through the lens of suspicion. And you were wrong. And if you pursued that wrong sense, that wrong gut instinct, despite what the evidence tells you about their innocence, then you are perpetuating an injustice. We all have wrong instincts about people and we meet them for the first time, right?

That's fine. But when you don't allow the evidence to guide you and to tell you what the truth is, and instead you have a gut instinct and you follow that gut instinct no matter what the evidence says, then we have a problem. Yeah. And also though, let's not forget, and you wrote about this in the in your Atlantic piece, the person who actually was the real murderer, was charged with murder on this other kind of like they could in a very quiet way on the back burner while still pursuing it, which is again, how is that even possible? If they know they have the murderer, they're charging him, why are they still bothering you? Yeah, well that's a goes into an interesting like the why of this question is like the thing that is just has always stuck with me and sort of haunted me. Like why? Why?

If you like saw like in a lot of wrongful convictions cases, it's like, okay, they go after the wrong guy because they don't actually know who the real murder was. And like they do DNA years later and they're like, oh my God, how horrible. Wrong. There was a why witness and they just mistook them love blah. Like that is a more like honest mistake. The mistake of pursuing a case against innocent people, even when you have definitive evidence against someone else, like overwhelmed

against someone else, that's more of either a purposeful corruption kind of thing, or it is a mental gymnastics that is, seems like it would be incredible, but actually if you look deep down at the kind of cognitive biases that everybody has, it's just a horrifying example of it. So for instance, there's something called the anchoring bias, where the first idea that you have about a person or the first impression, you have of them,

that impression sticks with you even if you find evidence to the contrary. And so you get into this tunnel vision loop of confirmation bias where whatever the evidence tells you, you always find a justification for it explaining your first instinct. And in my case, I feel like it's a classic example of that, where they said, okay, we have not only have a gut instinct about this person, but we've already rested her really quickly before any evidence came in and

oh, oops, all this evidence is coming in pointing not to her, but to this other guy who has a rap sheet, well, instead of pivoting and saying, oh, we were wrong, it's actually him, they just decided to smash all that together. So they didn't have to be wrong and they didn't have to face the consequences of being wrong both professionally and personally, because I don't think anyone wants to think that they are responsible for putting an innocent 20-year-old girl traumatized in prison. Right, exactly.

I agree with you, however, because it's all about a beyond a reasonable doubt, right? So having him at least gives that beyond a reasonable doubt for your own legal team. Like what would happen with your own legal team? Didn't they run with that? I don't understand. I mean, you'd be surprised,

they again, the mental gymnastics that people do. Like even here in the US, like they'll have like someone who was raped and murdered say. Okay. Maritus is raped and murdered. They get the wrong guy. Years later, they find DNA evidence from the rape kit, they get it analyzed and it points to someone else.

Time and again, detectives and prosecutors have said, oh, well, she just must have had sex with someone else that day. And then this other guy came in and raped and killed her. And we just didn't find his DNA. So like the sort of insane justifications to like say we weren't wrong is not just in my case. It happens surprisingly all the time.

Yeah. So no, it does. I, you know, and I don't want to jump that much forward, but I can imagine what you said you're very right about this whole cognitive bias or what anchoring, I bet you even in your life now when you meet people and you have been acquitted and you exonerated and all that and they know who the real killer is, I bet still and you can say you can tell me like do people like still wonder if you were the murderer or like when they meet you now, are they still have that idea like well did she do it?

Didn't she do it? Yeah, I mean, from what I've seen and from what I've heard, I always tend to have this feeling of, like I know as soon as I walk into a room, there's going to be a version of me in people's heads that I'm going to be pitted against. And people are going to be, whether they're conscious of it or not, comparing me to the idea of me in their heads.

And I think it's even tempting and even fun to go, did she or didn't she? And to like talk about that later. And that sucks for me. I wish it wasn't my reality. Yeah. But I came home to face that reality. And that's a little bit why I've been battling, I'm having this ongoing battle to reclaim my life and my identity because it's not just about reclaiming my freedom. It's about like my whole life has been defined by something that has nothing to do with me, and how do I juggle that?

It's unbelievable. And also, your formative years of your life were literally stripped from you. So I mean, the whole combination, I mean, that's when I said, it's enough to make anyone go crazy. And you seem, I guess I don't know you very well yet, but you seem very common composed. And you kind of understand all the different dynamics

of what happens in this stuff. Well, when you're trapped in a jail cell for four years, you have a lot of time to feel helpless, but also to think. And I spent a lot of time trying to understand the why. Like I said, the why continues to haunt me. And I wasn't satisfied with easy solutions, right? Like, an easy solution might be, oh, just they're evil people in the world and they're doing evil things to me.

Right. But that didn't explain the why to me. And I didn't believe that. I didn't think that my prosecutor was sitting in his office going, woohoo. Like no one does that. Instead, I mean, there are very few genuine psychopaths in the world.

I did not believe that the entire world was filled with psychopaths who irrationally hated me. Instead, the world is filled with real human beings who have real feelings and are genuine and honest and are doing the best they can who are also irrationally hating me. That's a more interesting problem. And so I understand that I am an idea

to people more than I am a person, a lot of the time. And in my own life, the only way that I know how to combat that issue is to just do the best I can, to be a genuine person and to try. It's almost like this double-edged sword where it's like I so understand how insane ideas of me, people can have, but it almost feels like it's almost easy for me to wash it off because it's like, what you think of me has absolutely nothing like there's no part of me that's like, you know, are they maybe just a right a little bit like, no, I didn't murder anybody.

Right, right, right. So like, no, like, so it's kind of a thing. Exactly. But you said even in the time it happened, which is so insid, because when it was going on, you said that like there were times, because there's been so many,

well, documentaries and movies and your own book and other people, which I think is so interesting too, are profiting off of you just inspired by Amanda Knox story and you're not making any based on, and you're not making any money off of any of this, right? Which is like unbelievable to me. I'm not even being like consulted. Oh, how might this impact your life

if we were to use your name and face to promote our film? Like, no. There's this almost this sort of expectation, like, oh, we're talking about you, so that must be a good thing. You must be grateful. And it's like, no, actually, I've seen both sides of this where people talking about you is not necessarily a good thing.

Right. Exactly. No, I agree with you. And like, when you can't do a lawyer that can go after these people, like, no, that movie still water you talk about that too, with Matt Damon. And who was that director? Tom McCarthy.

And it's a big movie. It's a huge blockbuster movie. I don't know how much money it made at the box office. But it's a big movie with a huge star. And they just, people said, like, I saw all the Inventing affair and all the other people saying, it was inspired by your saga and all this other stuff. And like, do you have a lawyer that can like,

go after them and make money off of that? Well, I'm less interested in the antagonistic approach. And I'm more interested in the, what kind of conversations can we have about this overall issue. So for me, when I wrote that piece, it was not to be antagonistic. It was actually to ask everyone to stop and consider that maybe there's another perspective to this based on a true crime genre. Maybe, just maybe, the people who are inspiring your stories, maybe they might have a feeling about being constantly used as content for entertainment products. And maybe,

just maybe, they should have a voice if they are going to be used as content for entertainment. Yeah. And like, I wanted to take this opportunity to speak to a broader issue that is in our culture. Like I think it's a really interesting place that we're at where we're talking about cultural appropriation and we're talking about the misinformation and the misuse of people's identities like the gangster thug or whatever. Like we're noting that there are types of people who have been stereotyped into non-humanhood in Hollywood and in entertainment products. But we haven't talked about actual individual people who keep being recycled as content over and over and over and made to be sort of characters in these morality plays that we keep presenting to ourselves.

And it's like I am not a character, I'm not a black and white character in your morality play. I have my own perspective about my own experience. And I find it interesting that people like myself are not given the opportunity to tell their own stories or to present their own stories. And yet a lot of other people outside of them keep using their stories over and over and over again and referencing them and using them as promotion. Like it's, I can't tell you the number of times that people have said, oh, it's this,

but it's like Amanda Knox, but if this happened and then like I only hear about it on like the eve of its release and people are like, oh, hey, will you do some promotion for us? And it's like, oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. That is so insane to me. Like I did see you had to tweet that you like tweet like Malcolm Gladwell, the whole thing with Malcolm Gladwell had a what was that book called? I can't remember talking to strangers. Yeah, talking to

street which ironically he didn't actually talk to me, which is the I exactly. But like and I don't want to I don't want to rag on Malcolm Gladwell because like in the end, he I asked him to have a conversation with me on my podcast and he agreed and he was gracious enough to do that and he was gracious enough to allow me to call into question his own examination of the case. And like I did not have like bones to pick with Malcolm Gladwell. No, the very least like did the work of doing research into the case. Like I can't tell you the number of did the work of doing research into the case. Like I can't tell

you the number of people who don't even really research the case, they just take what they've heard in the ether about the case and then recycle it in their own content. And it's like, yeah, I can't tell you the amount of damage that does to me and not just to me, but to like Meredith's family. I wonder how they feel about it. Like they're like the Meredith character in the Stillwater film, having a sexual relationship with the Amanda Knox character. And it's like, don't, you know, there's this idea

that it's because it's fiction, because we didn't name them Amanda and Meredith, people should understand, the audience understands that it's not them, but that's not how it works. The impression is still what it is. 100%. You just have to have a glimmer of similarity and people jump right on that and think of that. Do they ever respond to anything that you've... Not to me directly. I know that a few people who interviewed Tom McCarthy asked him, like, oh, have you seen Amanda's, like, Atlantic piece?

And he was actually really dismissive. He was like, oh, well, she hasn't seen the film. So she can't really say and it's fiction. So it's fine. Like, it was disappointing to me because again, like, I'm not here to antagonize. I'm here to have a conversation so that we can all be better storytellers. I completely understand storytelling. Like, I'm a storyteller myself and I take that responsibility really seriously that I do not have a responsibility just to my audience. I also have a responsibility to the source

of my story. And that's something that I think that we've all been failing to do in the criminal justice system, in journalism, and in Hollywood. There's this idea that, like, as long as the audience is entertained, anything goes. And it's like, well, what about the audience that is at the heart of your story and doesn't how they're impacted matter to? Right. No, absolutely. That's a really great point.

So let's go back to when this whole thing was going on. You weren't even that close friends with Meredith, correct? I mean, we didn't know each other a long time. I had moved in, I think, five or six weeks before the murder happened. So we knew each other for several weeks, but we weren't best friends close, we had known each other forever. Right. And then, again, I was so even dead back then,

I would remember being yelling at the TV, because I'm like, what would be the real motive? There's no reason that you would even, like I know they think of some satanistic thing or your sex whatever got a rye. Yeah, that first conviction, they've defined the motivation as, oh, Amanda just wanted to do evil for the sake of evil.

So ultimately, what the judge landed upon was she just decided to be evil one day, like you do. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's frustrating because I think that the thing that the prosecution did was it presented this Madonna horror dichotomy where it took two young women from a tragic circumstance, Meredith and me. We weren't all that different Meredith and I. We both like to read. We both like to go out and have drinks and dance with friends.

Like, we were very similar. And they decided to pitch us as these two extreme versions of femininity, the invisible, ideal victim, and the ultimate sexually deviant violent horror. And that was the painting that they painted. And people ate that up. And instead of the, and the media, which whose job is to hold authorities accountable to the truth, instead latched onto that story and squeezed every last penny out of it that they could. Yeah.

Well, because also, I don't know if people know this or not know this, but isn't there the government or is also in charge, it owns the media there in Italy? Oh, you're talking about Berlusconi. Yeah, that's a really great podcast, actually. That is narrated by Whitney Cummings, all about Berlusconi and his media empire. He's massive. He's massive.

He's massive, yeah. But granted, I think that it's interesting that you mentioned that because I know that I don't know if I would say that the prosecution in Perusia owned was able to control the media narrative. I think that instead, it's more a problem of incentive structures. We're living in a capitalist world where the media has learned that the more salacious a story is, the more money you make. And so they latched on to this tragedy, not because it was a tragedy, not because it was

in the public interest that a young woman was just like murdered out of the blue, but because it had the potential for scandal. And that is why people latched on and it was, and then they just kept going. And I actually was, I read something recently that was looking into the amount of attention that was put on the actual figures in this case, so like Rudy Gidey or Meredith Kirchner. The number of times that they were actually named in a headline, minimal. I don't think like in the UK where there was like tons of coverage about this, I don't think Rudy Gidey's name ever made it into a headline. He's the killer of Meredith Kirchner, never made it into a headline.

Meredith may be made it into a headline like, you know, several dozen times, Foxy-Noxy was in headlines hundreds of times. A thousand, so it's like, what are we talking about here? Like, this is in the public interest, like let's focus on the facts, the case that are in the public interest. And instead, they hide behind this idea that like, oh, we're writing about a story that's like deeply impactful to our community and it has to do with justice and it has to do with crime. So it's in the public interest. But again, anything goes as long as it's self.

100% also, like I think because you know, you're a pretty girl and you, that also sells. And Meredith was a beautiful girl. Yeah, Meredith, Meredith, and you're absolutely right. Because I, and I hate to say this, but I never remembered her name. Meredith, I never really remembered Rudy, like Rudy's name until I was like, a lot of people don't even know Rudy could exist. That's a think like, you know, to be honest with you, and I was telling people that you were coming on the podcast, do you know what people said to me? Well, did she, did she do it? They didn't even realize that because it's a surgery. They're like Amanda Guilty is just in the ether.

Oh right, because it is in the ether, because most majority of people, if they're not like studying the facts of what's really going on, they hear it in the background and they heard your name so many times, they probably don't remember what the actual outcome of this story was. And so I found that to be so interesting to me,

because even in like when I was doing like, oh, yeah, Rudy was the guy's name or Meredith was because your name is like attached to the whole entire defines the case, defines the entire case, which is so, which goes to show why it is so, so important for us to be really, really critical about the, not even just the way facts are portrayed or mis-patraid, but also the things that these tragedies are called, the words that we used to define them. And if we define them as the Amanda Knox saga, that makes it seem like, first of all,

saga calls to mind star wars to me. So it's like, okay, like again, nice entertainment product, but like, this is not, it never should have been about me. And the only reason why I was ever focused upon or even that my, like, there was a pushback in the media by my family was because there was this immediate impulse to take this anonymous person and project all of our ideas of evil and hatred and female sexuality onto her. And I became a symbol for people and I was that symbol to be burned. Absolutely. So at Proger, you can find the highest quality products at a great price in every aisle every day with Proger brand.

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Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. full imprisonment. I was compensated around 18 grand, 20 grand. It was in euros. So you have to do like the exchange for them denying me the right to have a lawyer during my interrogation.

That's it. That's it. And that's only because I took that case to the European Court of Human Rights because they were claiming that I just wallaltzed into the into the police office and started like naming names and accusing innocent people and it's like no, no, no, no. I was interrogated over five days for 53 hours in a foreign language. I didn't understand and I was called into that room and they did not turn on the tape recorder and they just bullied me and scared the living crap out of me and slapped me until I did what they wanted me to do, which was science statements implicating an innocent person. Do they physically stop you?

Really. Yeah. Remember, remember. Are you kidding me? Yeah. It's, and like, they actually, again, they didn't record this. They, they had recorded every interrogation leading up to that. And then they just very conveniently didn't turn on the recorder for that one.

Oh my gosh. And so it's my word against theirs. But they were telling me that I was traumatized from having witnessed a crime that was horrible and that I didn't remember. And the woman who slapped me said that she was trying to help me remember. She was like, if I hit, you know. A lot of people think that the worst experience of that

was when I got convicted and it wasn't. It was the interrogation. There was the only time that I've ever felt insane because I could not make sense of the way that the police were treating me. I didn't understand. And my gosh, that is awful. I didn't know they can actually physically do.

No, they can't. They can't. I know, but there's not, there's no, there's no, there's nothing you can do about it. No, I was alone. I mean, and how many hours at a time were they doing this with you? Depended. I mean, I was in and out of there constantly. And if I wasn't being interrogated,

I was just in the waiting room. Like, I barely, I didn't even have a home to go to even. I know. They closed my entire home off. I didn't have, I only had the clothes on my back. I had like my, my purse and my clothes. and I was staying at my boyfriend Rafael A's place waiting to know what was going to happen and whether or not, like I honestly had no idea. And here I am thinking, is this a serial killer? Did he target our house and might be coming after us?

Like, I don't know. Like I don't know. Suddenly out of the blue Meredith is raped and murdered. I thankfully did not see in, I didn't, I never raped and murdered. I thankfully did not see in I didn't I never saw her body. Yeah. I never saw her body in person. I was later shown crime scene photos, which I'll never be able to get out of my head. But I never actually saw her body. And I think that's actually the difference between me and Filomena. Filomena was there at the door when they broke in her bedroom door

and she saw inside and saw Meredith's body. I did not. And so I wonder if like even just that at the very beginning Filomena is hysterical and I'm confused and not crying. People are looking at the two of us and going very different responses. Well, also very different inputs.

I did not see Meredith's body, Philimena did. So, well, absolutely. That's a whole different experience, obviously. I can't, that's interesting that you say that the interrogation was even worse than actually being in prison. Yeah, the interrogation was even worse than actually being in prison. Yeah, the interrogation was the one time, like prison was horrible. I'm just call it what it is.

It was a very, very bad experience. And the fact that it just kept going on and on and on. And I just could not like, I just had to wake up every day and be there and know that I wasn't going anywhere anytime soon. That was hard. But like being in that interrogation room and thinking I was going in to help the police and find out what happened to my friend and thinking, oh my god, thank goodness I'm alive, I could have been murdered. Like I go in there with a certain set of expectations about my role in all of

this and to have all those expectations upset and thrown into question, like I was already dealing with a surreality of like a murder just happened. That was not in my world. That was just not what was happening in my life. I did not know how to react to that. I did not know how to process that.

And then to have the police yelling at me and telling me, I'm never gonna see my family again and telling me that I'm traumatized and I must have witnessed it. And that I'm the most important person to their investigation. And if I don't help them, they'll never catch the murder. Like I was so confused and so scared.

And I have never felt like that before. I've never been that vulnerable before. Okay, yeah, I mean, by yourself, like it's your, your, your, did your parents fly in from America? So my mom flew in the day that they arrested me. And I'm a little bit convinced because they attacked my phones and knew when she was coming that they felt like they had to get me that night, or else they weren't going to be able to arrest me

because they knew my mom was coming and they knew that she would be able to help me. So they got me while I was still alone. And so what did your mom do when she got there? My mom landed and found out that I got arrested. And so she of course is freaking out and goes to the American Embassy, gets set up with lawyers, blah blah blah,

does all the thing. But meanwhile, I'm sitting in a jail cell, not even being told that I'm being arrested for a murder. I was in a jail cell and they were telling me that I was an important witness and I was there for my own protection. And so I'm sitting there waiting to be allowed to talk to my mom and I don't see her for days. And instead, the first time I actually hear that I'm even being

accused of having any kind of involvement in Meredith's murder is the first time they bring me in front of a judge and that judge asks me how do you play? Like that's how you found out. That's how I found out. I was in front of a judge and the judge says you are accused of involvement in the murder of Meredith Kertcher. How do you plea? And what did you say? Well, obviously shocked. I was shocked. And my mom, basically I walked into a room. There were two people I didn't recognize who were my lawyers.

And they were like, don't say anything. We are here because your mom hired us. We're here because of your mom, don't say anything. Because they hadn't even had the opportunity to talk to me yet. I didn't know who they were. And so I stand there in front of a judge, just says, blah, blah, I say no comment

because mother telling you no comment, and then they whisk me off again. So you're like in a holding cell. Yeah. Like in the same clothes, are they feeding you, or you're just sitting like, I mean, they fed me, they're not kind of like, but you're sitting in the same clothes, when they give you like in the same clothes? And are they feeding you or just sitting like, I mean, they fed me. They're not kind of like,

but you're sitting in the same clothes when they give you like a jumpsuit or something. No, no, they don't do jumpsuits in Italy. They give, I think they actually, I had a pair of sweatpants on. Yeah, I just had like sweatpants on because it was the middle of the night. Like I was wearing, I was wearing rough,

I always sweatpants. You were. Okay, so then they say, how do you play and you kind of are not saying anything? I say, I guess nothing. Like I say no comment basically. And then they're like, okay. And then what happens?

And then I wait until I get to talk to my mom again. And then how did it go from that? Where did your mom save you? When that was first time My mom came into prison. She, I love my mom. She immediately just held me and we cried for a little bit. And she told me that it was gonna be okay and that it was all just a big misunderstanding

and that this thing was like blowing up in a huge way and she, but we had lawyers and it was gonna be okay. Well, we didn't realize was how long it was going to take. We thought it was just this terrible misunderstanding that they were gonna figure it out that any day now the evidence was gonna come in and they were gonna find out who really did it.

And even then, when they had the real killer, it was his fingerprints and footprints in Meredith's blood, it was his DNA all over her body. They still were like, oh Amanda must have told him to do it. So just the whole thing is mind boggling. And then so you kind of your mom was saying it was going to be okay, but no one ever expected it to be as long. So when you were in jail for the, what was it like even, like, what was your days like? What did you do in jail?

Like, do you have friends? I mean. So the first eight months I was in isolation, which is not the same as solitary confinement. I wasn't like, I wasn't just stuck in a single cell unable to go anywhere else and unable to talk to anyone for those for those eight months. I was instead kept in a cell that was sort of apart from everyone. I did have a cell mate, but I was I was not allowed to socialize or talk to anyone else outside of myself, and I was unable to

participate in any of of the prison activities. So if there was an outside time, they took me aside. And I was not allowed to talk to anyone. Why? Well, because I was under investigation, and so I needed to be isolated. I don't know. I was isolated for eight months.

And then I slowly sort of I spent the first like two years leading up to my conviction feeling like Again at any moment somebody's going to figure out that this this is all a big mistake They're gonna let me go home. I was just waiting. I was sort of just waiting for the world to figure it out and then when I was convicted And I realized that the truth didn't matter, and that my innocence didn't matter to anyone, and that like there was no guarantee that I would be a free person, then I had a very different relationship with the prison environment. I realized that it was my home, and whether I liked it or not and that I was a prisoner and that I needed to live my best life

Under the circumstances I sort of had to accept what the circumstances were and figure out how I could live a life worth living So for the first two years you were like, okay, they're gonna figure it out And yeah, I was in limbo limbo And what you're talking to your lawyers and your mom and about when it's happened, like when you kind of in the process of trying to navigate the situation of how to get out of there, like on a regular basis.

I mean, yeah, we were in, we're on trial and I'm just answering all of my attorney's questions. They came and visited me once a week and my family. For two years. Yeah. And where is your mom now living in Italy with you? My family found an apartment and someone in my family was always in Italy to visit me. So every once a week you got to see them. Yeah, so it was six hours a month. Oh my god. Yeah.

And so, my god, I can't imagine the legal bills that you would have to endure for that. And then the second two years, what was the... So then when they convicted you, you're like, okay, this is my life now. What was your life like? Can you just talk about like what was like living in a prison there? Was it maximum security? Was it all... I don't know the distinctions in Italy between maximum and minimum. I was also in a women's prison, which meant that there weren't enough people there

to sort of to separate people into different spaces, depending on like, there's a distinction between definitive and not definitive sentences in Italy. I had never had a definitive sentence while I was in prison because my trial was still ongoing. I hadn't like reached that level where it's like, okay, your definitive sentence is 30 years, whatever it is.

Okay. So I was mixed in with people who were not definitive and who were definitive. There was no distinction. Instead, like on the male side, they always distinguish between, because there's a very different sort of even lifestyle to the definitive versus the non-definite person. It's more like the difference between jail and prison, whereas in our prison, we were all just sort of mixed together. And God, what can I say?

I mean, like habits and hustle sounds a lot more like what I did. What I did was exactly, right? I can imagine, you said, give me exactly, tell me your habits, tell me your hustle. Like what time do you wake up? Like I would literally wanna know like the minut me exactly. Tell me your habits. Tell me your hustle. Like, what time do you wake up? Like, I would literally want to know like the minutiae. Like in a day.

Yeah, okay. So the habits were largely defined. So, wait, that's how I think it can you see? You have a roommate or a prison mate, right? A cell mate. A cell mate. Did you get along with them? Did they change them all the time?

Yeah, there was a lot of turnover. Again, because there's that mixture of definitive and not definitive. So leading up to my conviction, I was in like a four or five person cell and there was a lot of turnover. And a lot of these women were struggling. Like a lot, I maybe was the only person in the prison who still had all of my teeth. Like we're talking people who are really poor, who are really neglected, who have gone through horrific experiences, and who are also guilty of crimes. And so I was sort of thrust into a very, very different world that I was used to. I was, and my sort of hustle in that world was the fact that I could read and write, and that I was fluent.

I eventually became fluent in Italian, and I could translate into English. So I became the kind of unofficial translator for the many, many women who were not Italian, who were like Nigerian say, and who could speak like pigeon English and who couldn't speak Italian. So I often would read their letters for them, write their letters for them, read their court documents, like that was my hustle. It was the way that I, and by hustle, I mean, it was the way that I incorporated myself into the prison community, made myself useful, and tried not to get beat up. Yeah. I mean, is it as bad in the women's size that we, you know, it is in the men's

size, like, is it very dangerous? Is it super violent in the female prison? I mean, there's gonna be differences, obviously, like women are not plagued with testosterone the way that men are. So, yeah. But again, there are a lot of women, a lot of really battered damaged women who never really learned impulse control

or never learned how to navigate conflict in a nonviolent way. So like there was always the there was always the danger of someone just snapping and going off. However, I took great care to be as small and as invisible as possible while I was in prison and also as useful as possible so that people would basically not feel any impulse to like have negative feelings towards me. I didn't gossip. I didn't really incorporate myself into the social world largely out of like, reticence to be in a space where like gossip could exist. I just wanted to be independent Switzerland. I'm just here if you need to read your dot-court document for you.

And to basically just read and be left alone. So did you ever get beaten up then? No, I did not, I get a sort of like deer and headlights syndrome thing where when it happens I just kind of like freeze and and this one time I actually collapsed but not because I didn't faint I just like lost sort of feeling in my legs and I like fell down. Anyway, but then so the habits are largely defined by just the prison routine. Right. I don't get to determine where I am at any given point or when I get to eat or what all of these things like these things are dictated for me. So the few things that I had control over was how do I occupy the hours and hours and hours and hours I have locked in this one room? How big is a room? Well, I guess it wouldn't help because

you're viewers. It's going to be like a 10 by 10 maybe. That's the one that I shared with one other person. And it was one of the more modern prisons. So I had my own toilet and I had my own sink. It was not like one of the older ones where you had to like wait your turn to be taken out of your cell to use a restroom or something like that.

Like we was in your actual unit, you mean? In my cell or cell? Yeah, I'm not unit. I was thinking of like an apartment, which it was. So is there like, is there like a covering or is it safe? Yeah, there was like, actually, there was an actual wall. And of course, there are like little screens that the guards can like look into and watch you.

Like they usually kept it closed. And that was where we had a shower, I had a toilet, we had a sink, and then we had actually a separate like, kitchen-y sink that we could like wash our clothes and our dishes in. And you and your cellmates would share that area. Yeah, yeah. And then okay, so what time do you wake up?

Like what do you do? I tended to wake up around sevenish when the medicine cart wheeled through. It was really echoey hallways. It was like all concrete and so concrete and steel. So you just heard these echoing hallways and there was a medicine cart that went through every morning that like brought everyone their sort of methadone or whatever it is that they needed. That usually woke me up. Then we were given our breakfast which was either warm tea or warm milk

or warm coffee. And then if you bought like biscuits or things, you could dip those in and that was your breakfast. But if you didn't buy biscuits, they won't feed you breakfast. No, there's no food for breakfast. It's just those drinks. Yeah. And then for, and then you had a two hour outside period where there's like this sort of concrete outside area that you can just walk in circles in. So I would do that. And then I come back to myself.

They would serve lunch, which was a starch, a meat, and a vegetable. So a lot of time it was like spaghetti with nothing on it and spinach and then you know with some cartilagey meat, whatever it is. Not great, but I think better than American prisons. I've heard horror stories. It's gonna say they actually give you a balanced diet. There were never cockroaches in my food. Like at the very least, there wasn't that.

Okay, well, I guess that's a win. It's a win, yeah. And then after that, there was another two-hour period that you could go outside if you wanted to. Then you were back in your cell and then there was one hour at the end of the day called sosyalita when you were allowed to go into another person's cell as a kind of like socializing hour. And that was the hour that I would go into other people's cells and write their letters for them. And then that's the end of the day.

So what time did it be in bed by? I would go to bed early just because I just wanted the day to be over. Yeah, so I would go to bed around eight. But what does there to do anyway? Like there's nothing to do. There's a lot of soap operas on TV. Oh, so is there a communal area where you want to be? No, so there were no communal areas except for the outside. Yeah, like we didn't. We always stayed in our cell

if we weren't in the outside area. So every cell did have a TV mounted to the wall. So you guys from watch TV all day if you wanted to? The TVs were on all day and I did not like it. So it was the news all about you all the time and there's no way to control that. So you're in your cell watching yourself on the news. Almost the time I was reading a book and trying not to pay attention to the TV. But your team, I keep on saying the team, your cell

prison name. Yeah, everyone followed the case. Everyone knew what was going on. And it's interesting like the jury is not sequestered there, right? So they also knew exactly every little thing that was going on in the media. Yeah. And they all came to that trial having read all the news and all of that. So there was no like unbiased jury, in my case. So how did it go? I mean, I know, I know from what reading everything, but from your perspective, when did you get that like, okay, this is gonna be now,

you have another chance to become free, or you have another chance to, because you thought this point, it's like there's no hope, you're really kind of acclimated to this is your life. And by the way, were you speaking with Rafi L, or were you guys kind of like, vacation like exchanged letters,

but we weren't allowed to talk to each other. So even like, we would go to, we always were in the courtroom together, but we weren't allowed to talk to each other. We weren't even really allowed to make eye contact, which is why it was a big deal when we did. Like, if we would see across each other, like see each other across the courtroom,

we would usually try to like give each other a sign, like just like, how are you, are you okay? Kind of thing like that. And then of course the press goes crazy. Oh my god, they're having a love affair while on trial. Exactly. I was asking if he's okay. And he was in jail too though, right? Yeah. For the same amount of time. He was in solitary confinement for eight months. And he was in the, yes, he was with me the entire journey in the sense that like we were both on trial at the same time, always at the same court dates, we just were in separate prisons, like separate prisons.

And poor off ILA because no one ever cared about him. Like he writes about it in his book. How he was Mr. Nobody. Like nobody actually cared about him. He was just my alibi. And so he had to be dragged into this mess along with me. Totally. Never hear about him. I never even knew what happened with him. He was just my alibi and so he had to be dragged into this mess along with me. Totally. Never hear about him. I never even knew what happened with him. So he was in solitary confinement and did he get out when you got out? But that was no news. Everyone just like, he just

kind of got out of jail and yeah, and that was it. And he didn't come back to a world that was very warm towards him. Like this was his country and he was treated like a villain in his own country. I at least got to come home to people at the airport saying welcome home. Right, you know. Absolutely. I think a lot of people that were forgotten in this case,

it was literally like the Amanda Knox show. That was it. Yes. And then people come to me and they're like, why was it such a Amanda Knox show? And I was like, well, why don't you ask the prosecutors? And you ask the detectives. Why don't you ask the journalists

who all made it about me when it never should have been about me? Yeah, it's not like it's a girl fault, but that was happening. I mean, you'd be surprised how many people treat it. Like it's my fault. It's unbelievable. A lot of these things, a lot of the stuff

that you're saying is unbelievable. So then when did you get the moment, like, okay, guess what Amanda, we have a chance to get in you out of here? What was that like how did that happen? So it's the way that I um sort of describe it is like leading up to my conviction I just kept getting more and more hopeful because I kept thinking here's this light at the end of the tunnel like with all the insanity that's being said about my case like it's all bullshit so like ultimately when it comes down to it, that verdict is going to be, I mean, as

innocent, she's going to get to go home. Right. I was convinced. Then I was convicted. And from then on out, I was afraid to hope because like the feeling of like devastation for having like my world collapsed when I was convicted. Like everything I thought was true about the world

and about how fairness worked, like all of that disappeared. And I didn't know what I could count on anymore. So I was afraid to hope. And so the entire time that my appeals trial was going on, things were going well for me during my appeals trial. Like the court assigned independent experts to look at the forensics in the case

that was hotly debated during the first trial and lo and behold, the independent experts agreed with our experts saying that all of this evidence was bunk and ultimately it resulted in an acquittal. But like, up to the moment that they said you're absolved of this crime I was terrified that I was going to be sent back to prison again and convicted and that I was not I didn't have hope. I didn't have reason to hope and so

That again sort of like upset all of my expectations. I was sobbing and Funnily enough like a lot of people a lot of the guards who were like help like there, they were like, no, no, you won, you won. And I was like, no, I know, I know I won, but they thought I didn't understand because I was just like sobbing. Were you highly medicated to keep yourself like, I don't know how you would not be? No, I did not medicate at all. It's funny, like I had a number of panic attacks in prison and it was medication was often pushed on me, but I was in a survival environment. And I could not, first of all, I'm not much of a medication person, like even when I broke my foot playing soccer once,

and I went like a week without actually going to a doctor because I was like, oh, you broke it. Yeah, yeah, I think someone crunched my foot. So I'm not much of a medication person anyway, but I also felt like I could not afford not to have my wits about me. So I just, I, I got through that experience instead by practicing a kind of intuitive mindfulness kind of thing. There are a lot of different weird strategies that I just invented for myself that I now realize because psychologists I've talked to have been like, oh my god, you know that's an actual therapeutic strategy. But I would have conversations with a younger version of myself, who I was like coaching through the like basically I would say,

hey, younger Amanda, this is what is going to happen to you. And this is how you're going to get through it. And I basically sort of big-sistered myself through the experience as I was living it. And I didn't always have answers for her like, funny, like I had a very vivid imagination and I would like really really when you're alone in a cell, you get a very vivid imagination and I would like really really, when you're alone in a cell, you get a very good connection. I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine. So like she was always like really confused, like what are you talking about? That is so absurd and I'd be like, no, no, like believe me, this is going to happen to you. Yeah. And this is how you're going to deal with it. And that's sort of how I took this experience

that felt so overwhelming and on top of me, I put it in front of me, and I took this sort of like disassociative, metastance away from it, so that I could look at it, not from a place of like desperation, but from a place of genuine curiosity. And in that way, oddly, sort of becoming like one step removed from it, I was able to have a more global perspective of it, which isn't to say that I wasn't desperately sad, and I woke up every day feeling sad, and sort of having to convince myself that life was still worth living.

Yeah, but that's a very mature way of dealing with something when you're very young. I mean, I'm lucky. I honestly feel like I'm lucky that I had like the sort of disposition to come up with that. Not everyone does and not everyone like this is something I actually was talking with Joe Rogan about because he was like wow you know this experience really like made you a really strong person and I was like yeah but it didn't have to. It also could have utterly broken me. And I could have come out of this experience like a broken angry sad,

like hating the world person and I would have been entirely justified to come out that way. Yeah, you would. So you just got lucky, you feel. I got lucky and I didn't want that like One of the sort of things that I've constantly done is like pushed back against this experience I didn't want this experience to define me and that also means that I didn't want it to change me in a way that I didn't want I wanted control over at the very least myself if I couldn't control my life circumstances I wanted some semblance of control and the only thing I had control over was my own mind. I didn't even have control over my own body really. Right, because everything was

like they would say do this, do that, do that, like you couldn't do anything. I mean, maybe it's also a testament, maybe how you know how you grew up and your relationship with your family. Yeah, I think that's also very key because the feeling that I wasn't worthless, like my family always conveyed to me, like, we love you, we care about you, what is happening to you is not fair, we're fighting for you. That was a sort of constant in the back of my mind, reassurance that what was happening to me shouldn't have been happening that I deserved better. And that made me not sort of internalize as much

the kind of victim blaming that was being pushed on me at a time. Like you're a bad person. This is why this is happening to you This is your fault. Like I get that all the time. And I think to some extent, I've internalized some of that, but it's thanks to my family that I've not internalized all of it. Right, no, they kind of kept you sane. Yeah. More from our guests, but first a few words from our sponsor.

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Equal Housing Lender. How about your friends back home, like in America? Bank of Texas is a trademark of the okay FNA number FDIC equal housing lender How about your friends back home like in America like would they support super supportive super supportive like once a week I had a 10-minute phone call That that was all the phone calls. I was a lot once a week 10 minutes I didn't get to decide the time the prison did but it was the same time every week It was 6 a.m. time. And so all of my friends would come over the night before, spend the night at my parents' house and all be there to hear me talk to my family. Really? For that time in a phone call. So they would all be on that phone call

for you. How many people were, how many friends was that? Filled up the house, people sleeping on the floor. Yeah. And do you still speak with those people? Are they so close with you now to this day? Um, yeah, several of them have like gone on and done different things, so I don't see them very often. No, but you're still friends with them or wow, so you really had a big support system that really kind of helped keep you sane. Yeah, and like, and gosh, I like it's, I've, my family and friends have had a lot of patience because it's not just, it wasn't just the prison part. Like even after I come, it came home, um, navigating how to sort of be in a relationship with me, given this like insane, like I'm even just starting to unpack how not just how it's how what happened impacted everyone in my family and my friends and

how they were personally impacted, but also how our relationship was impacted. Because ultimately like I was gone. I was gone. I was not a part of people's lives for years on end. And in that process, everyone grew and changed. And the thing that we had in common was this struggle, but once the struggle is gone and you haven't had that just daily connection with the person,

what is your relationship built on? So true. So what happened? I mean, it's an ongoing process. It must have been,, I can only, you're 100% so true, even in like everyday life, right? Like, if you don't, people grow apart, and if they have one like one core thing that keeps them together, and that thing is no longer there, yeah, then what do you, what's your relationship? Like, what is it based around? Yeah, especially when you think like a lot of my friends and family like had this idea, like the person I was

that they were friends with that they were their relationship was was a person who hadn't yet gone through that experience. And then I came home and as try as I might to just go back to the life I had before that life didn't exist anymore and that person didn't exist anymore. I was changed. I was not changed the way that the prison system wanted me to, it was to break me, but I was changed, and it's taken me all this time to this day to try to figure out how I've

changed and why, and is that okay? And do I feel like I really have control over that or are there like inevitably things that I don't like about myself that I've taken from this experience? Like one of the things that I'm trying to work on right now is trying a psychologist actually just recently sort of gave me a term for this. He said that I show signs of a thing called vulnerable narcissism, which sounds crazy, but like what it is is a feeling of perpetual shame and blame. I'm the kind of person who will apologize for everything because I constantly feel like everything is my fault.

And that's a kind of narcissism where you think like, oh, what you're feeling and what you're feeling and what you're feeling, it must be my fault. I'm so sorry. And maybe it's not my fault. Maybe you're just having your own day. And I have nothing to do with it. And like, but I feel like this perpetual need to apologize for things

that I that even don't have anything to do with me. Because you're so used to it, that's been like- So used to being blamed. Yeah, so that's you take it upon yourself. So is it- That's how I've like weirdly internalized this experience. And it's not a good thing. It's not a good thing for my relationships.

If I'm constantly feeling like I have personally wronged you if you're just not having a good day, right? Right, right, right. But then, I don't know if the word narcissism should be attached to that because it was slow. Well, narcissism has like a nasty connotation. But ultimately what it means is that I think you're you're you're that core of every issue. Yes. So then what what did the psychologist tell you you can do to kind of help that? He he suggested to me that I continue sort of my stoic meditation practice, which is what I do.

What is that stoic meditation? So meditation in general is just sitting with yourself and present. Of course, there's a million types of meditation. So what's that kind? Well, I mean, I don't think it's really a kind. It's more like I tend to, I am attracted to stoic philosophy. And so when I'm meditating, I'm thinking often in stoic terms. So like one stoic practice is imagining a life that is worse. So say, you know, like say everything is the same,

but I have cancer. Just imagine that for a moment and now come back to real life, how much better do you feel about your life now that you don't have cancer? That is the kind of practice that helps you trigger feelings of gratitude. No matter what your life circumstances are, you can always, always find opportunity to have gratitude if you do things like negative visualization. I like that. You know what can I tell you something? I've been doing this podcast and this stuff for many years. And I've never heard of anyone say anything about negative visualization before.

Yeah. There's always, there's this like sense of like, imagine your best life and get there. 100%. That is so, that to me makes more sense than negative visualization than probably because I'm not a very like You know the whole like meditating and manifesting and visualization like I feel these words are so tired Like everyone just use them as like placeholders. Yeah, they're trying to like speak about their you know You know, they're journaling whatever sure so So like, and like, so when you say this negative, the negative visualization, that actually like resonates

with me because you're right, you're taking yourself in a worse situation and come back to where you actually are. Yeah. And you do, you feel better. Like when you just said that thing about the cancer, yeah, I like to feel like it. You're like, oh no, no. I did, like I was like, I feel like I'm going to put in that,

but you're, but you have kids and it's like, imagine if you lost one of your 100%. 100%. Okay, let's talk. Sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry, sorry. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I totally, that makes that is so impactful. I'm gonna write that down.

And now you just like want to hug your daughter or your son, you want to like have sympathy for the person who's like acting out in the grocery line because you can also do negative visualizations for another person. You can see someone who's not having a good day and go, you know what? They have cancer. And then you're like, oh shit, that explains why they're really not having a good day. Yeah, you can do that. Where did you learn? Where did you see this? Where did you hear about this negative visualization? Oh, this is really bad that I don't remember the name.

The guy I don't have to, but I was doing like these like stoic challenges with my husband when we were pregnant where we would also one of the another stoic practices you sort of put, give yourself challenging experiences so that you can first of all have gratitude for whatever experience that you have on the day today. Like it is very easy to sort of get into this jaded mindset

in your own grind. And so you give yourself a sort of, not a negative experience, but a challenging experience that sort of kick starts your sort of survivals instinct, like instincts. Even if it's just like you're the type of person who doesn't go for a run, go for a run, struggle. Feel like shitty through it. And by the end of it, you're like, damn, I did something new today. And that's challenging. And I feel better for it.

That's a good one too. I like that. Really. Where do I find a list of these Stowec Challenge? Is Google that? Because I'll send you a link to the book that I was reading. It's really short, short and sweet. And also I use Sam Harris' meditation app and there is like a Stoic track. So you can just sit there and listen to like five minute meditations on like different Stoic ideas. I like that. Yeah.

Thank you. Totally not what I was expecting to hear from you today, but that's really, really helpful. So where was I going with this then? Before we got into this whole negative visual, you were saying something. I forgot. Oh, I know. Well, we're talking about how you've changed

as a person and what you came out obviously, like the whole vulnerable narcissism thing. Yes, right. And then what are some other ways you think you've changed that you noticed? Well, so one of the things that I have been navigating is trying to remember that I can be a proactive person instead of a reactive person. So like while I was on trial, I was rendered utterly helpless and my entire life was revolving around having to react to

these accusations that are just happening to me. And today, I am very, very intentional about the work that I put out in the world. I have a podcast called Labyrinths where I interview other people who similarly have felt like they are lost and they are navigating an experience that is overwhelming to them and that they don't know where to go. And they are feeling like their identity is being lost in the process. Because that's one of the things about trauma especially,

is that it's a thing that happens to you that you don't have control over. And then becomes the thing that you're about. Like, oh, I was raped. Now I'm a rape victim. And that's like the biggest thing about me and it has nothing to do with me. It's because some other person acted badly towards me.

Like, I don't want that to be my life. I don't want that to be me. That is that me. And it's that me now. Like, that question, that processing for me is a fascinating project, not just for myself, but also for other people. And I know, I know, I know, I know that not everyone

is on the same stage or ability to articulate those ideas for themselves. A lot of people reach out to me and ask me, how do you even process this? And as well, maybe you just need to talk to a younger version of yourself or maybe we can just talk and we can find out what your perspective is Because I think a lot of people who have been through like crazy intense experiences Want to like the only thing that they can have a control over is the narrative about their own life that they tell themselves Even if they don't have control over where that narrative takes them their perspective that meta-layer is the thing that

any one of us has control over at any time. That's that presence. And not everyone is like soup, it's not intuitive, like how to achieve that presence in that perspective, but anyone can do it. And sometimes it just takes someone across from them asking the right questions. Yeah, I know. I think that's actually very true. You just say 100% like you just nailed it.

Because so your podcast is basically about that. People's experience is dealing with this. A big overwhelming experience, whatever it is. What is in turns and they're like, what has happened? Right. And that they have zero control. Like, how do you, so from, because obviously, did you see a therapist for a while, or you still see a therapist, like, what's amazing to me is like, yes, the fact that you

like had these, these ways, these like rituals or like these like, these ways to kind of like deal with your situation while it was happening, they were like, I think so mature. But like even that, that you can even, even like, acknowledge that whole thing that you just said, is to me, like, again, you have such, you have a lot of self-awareness. I guess when you're stuck in jail, you can think about all this stuff.

But a lot of people just don't have, like, is that what, we always like that. I guess is my question. Like, did you always, were you a natively a person that was kind of self-aware, who kind of figured that stuff out before all this stuff happened? And like, could you seem to be really good at like analyzing you and figuring out like ways to kind of help yourself be better in any way? Does that make any sense? Yeah. I mean, I don't think that I I was young. I know I was very young. Yeah, I think that the one thing that I had I had learned from a young age and this is from like soccer

Yeah, was the experience of like confronting Physical difficulties. So like I had a really intense coach who would push us and push us and push us and so while I did not have like a sense like of Justice pushing me and challenging me in way and emotionally in ways that I was Unready for I did have the experience of being pushed physically and having to like Be able to process How to get through it. So one of the first things that I did when I was finally figuring out,

oh, this is taking a long time. Like I'm not getting out tomorrow was I would just start every day with like, I think I can. I think I can. The little engine that could bullshit, like I think I can. And not I can.

I think I can. Yeah, absolutely I can. I think I can get through this day and just sort of like that that was kind of my internal mantra for a while. And then when I started realizing that well maybe I'm going to have to tell myself that for the rest of my life, then I started asking why. And I got very, very curious about like the human condition and human psychology and how good people can hurt innocent people and still think they're doing the right thing. And trying to navigate why that was happening. It took me a long time to figure it out.

It's not like I had a moment of inspiration. It's just, I feel like I was sort of forced into a mindfulness space because I had to occupy my time. I had so much time and I was not drugging myself. I was not watching soap operas. I was reading books and sitting around thinking and I was journaling a lot. And so I spent a lot of time in my own head.

I got a very good relationship with myself. And since I've come home, I've started a meditation practice where it's not even like, it's not even about writing anything down It's just about noticing so just like sitting with yourself for 10 minutes a day and just noticing where your mind goes and not judging it Not feeling guilty or not guilty for the things that you're thinking about just like observing what's happening and just allowing yourself a space to just exist for a moment and that that just like breath,

gives you an insane amount of appreciation for existence, perspective, and also compassion for other human beings. Because I think a lot of the time, the way that good people hurt other people is we get so caught up with our own existence that we forget that other human beings are impacted by us. Or we sort of justify and lila, and I'm too busy to think about that.

And like, we don't pause. We don't pause, and we just constantly push. And we just need to pause. And I think a lot of harm would be reduced in the world if a lot more people just paused before they pushed. That's a good way of putting it. Look at you, Amanda. No, I think it's a lot more people just paused before they pushed. That's a good way of putting it. Look at you, Maddie. No, it's great.

So do people recognize you when you go out now? Like, do they know who you are? I mean, a lot of people recognize me, but don't know where they don't know where they recognize me. I just tell them, I have that face that I don't recognize. Like, does it happen daily? Like, are you like, I think I know you? Well, I don't go out much.

I don't know. That's another thing that is very are you like, I think I know you. Well, I don't go out much. I like, I don't have. That's another thing that like is very different. Actually, that's a huge thing, it's different. When I was like, when I was before all this experience, I really, really liked to immerse myself in crowds. I really liked to people watch. I like, there's this market in Seattle called the Pike Place Market.

That's like this bustling sort of, you know, farmer marketplace with crafts and things like that. I loved to go there after school and just meander, just watch people enjoy the presence of people. And now I feel very claustrophobic around people and I tend to isolate myself. Maybe that's something I need to work on. Is that feeling of like claustrophobia that I get

when I'm in crowds, especially in enclosed spaces? Oh, for sure. I do not like being in enclosed spaces. I do not like not knowing where the exit door is. Like it's it's very challenging for me. And that's one of the reasons why I sort of live in a kind of isolated space where I have like a safe sort of place to disappear to. I feel like I feel still feel today like the need to disappear sometimes. Really. So, is it how do you meet people now? Like, first of all, you were saying earlier like a while ago about how people could be

very cruel and they say terrible things. Like when you go out and about, do you notice that it's more of a negative? If they do recognize you, is it more of a positive? Like, oh my God, I'm so sorry for you. Which one do you get more of? Definitely more positive. Like in person, it's more positive.

It's the digital space that tends to be very negative. And then like, there's this middle ground space where it's neither like, oh my God, I'm so sorry. It's, or oh my God, I hate you. It where it's neither like oh my god, I'm so sorry It's or oh my god. I hate you. It's more of like oh my god I'm like really want to talk to you right now about the worst experience of your life and like get down So like I I don't know I try to acknowledge that like where people are coming from from a place of Curiosity is not a bad thing like what that means is that's an opportunity for that person to care about a broader issue

That doesn't just impact me it impacts lots of people so I try to be very accommodating of that But it can be exhausting sometimes. Yeah, I mean you know what I have noticed again Maybe this is because now I knew you're coming on, but that recently there's been more press around you than there was for the last few years. Yeah, it's interesting. Like, it's curious that that happened. And I think it happened because of still water.

Like, I think that why? Well, and like before that, nothing was really going on. Like I was just doing, I was doing my podcast, I've been working really hard and interviewing lots of really cool people. Like I had love our Burton on and I had like, I had Brent Spiner on. Like I had all these really interesting people on

and not that many people were really paying attention. But then as soon as I called out this like the movie, this movie and, but not just the movie, like I was sort of pointed to other examples of people having done this in my life and still water was just the latest blockbuster example. Right. I was like, hey, here's an issue,

that is a broad issue that I think we should all reflect upon. And for some reason, like I've been actually pointing this kind of thing out for a long time. Right. I don't know what it is about this moment, but it was resonating with people. People paused and were like, oh, I'm either a storyteller or a story consumer, and I've never thought about it from this way. And that was actually really encouraging to me because it told me, oh,

maybe there is a shift happening in our culture. And we see this with Monica Lewinsky do being the producer of her own show impeachment. Like this is the first time we are seeing shame to human beings being given a voice in their own narratives. And that's something that really, really matters to me at something that I'm doing on my podcast.

And the fact that people are actually thinking, oh, there's something to this is a really good sign. I think that means like we're all sort of deeply appreciating each other's humanity. Even while we still exist in these sort of like online echo chambers that are constantly vilifying other people. Totally. I think maybe it's a little bit of a reaction to that.

Like there are these fake ideas about people that are out in the world. And maybe it's sort of like everyone's sort of feeling it a little more personally now, because we all feel a little bit more in danger of that. Well, it's fine you mentioned Monica Lewinsky, because you're right. She got that, she's the producer of that show, and again, I feel like her whole image has been a little bit morphed a little bit since recently too, probably because of that and maybe because she had a more of a voice.

Well, and because she's like filled out that cartoon cut out that everyone made her out to be. Like just the punchline that she was for years and not like a fleshed out human being, she was just a dick sucker. Yeah, exactly. Oh my god. And to your point before.

It's like Clinton never got nearly the same type of ridicule. It was the Lewinsky affair. It was exactly. It was the Lewinsky affair who, and it's like Lewinsky wasn't having a fair. Yeah, it was. Exactly.

And he was a president. She was just, you know, an intern at the White House. She was so young. She was so young. Same age as you probably. She was 23 when it happened, so she was like a few years old. But can you imagine 23-year-old suddenly like the sex devil? Basically, like it's um, but by the way, you had it worse. You went to jail for it. You know, you had the same type of thing, but the same to the same point. Like you become of you become like this, like caricature of yourself.

And people only know you for that. Like to this day, I hate to say it, Monica Lewinsky, you know, like that's the only thing that I ever think about or remember about her. Even though, and even as she's given this position, totally, to tell her own story, it's still that story. It's still that story. That's my point. That even with her being the executive producer of impeachment, which is by the way doing very well. And yes, and she always

was a very smart girl. No one ever thought that she wasn't, right? Because she to be, you know, to be even an intern for the White House, who can't be a dummy, right? But no one cares. I mean, it's always about that story, even why she's getting some, you know, Good credit now is still the same thing. Oh, she had to do that first and granted like she's now like good for her Doing other things. Yeah, I don't even know. Have you seen 15 minutes of shame? No, is that hers? That's a documentary that she produced and it's not about her She like the first like two minutes of the documentary are her saying, I'm Monica Lonsky and I'm interested in shame because I've experienced

it first and foremost. Let me explore these stories of other people who have been publicly shamed. And that's, that's the documentary. Where is it at? What, where is it being? That's a good question. I bet if you Google it. I heard of it though. Do you know where it's boo? HBO. Oh, it's HBO. So you should be doing something like that, you know? Well, like that's the interesting thing. It that is to say that like, I actually have been pursuing a lot of these ideas

and trying to talk about them, but do you get the opportunity? I think a lot of people think that, oh, I could do whatever I want, and if I wanted to, well, I will tell you that like, I've been coming to, you know, LA, New York for years, proposing ideas. And what I found is the tomacarthies of the world are given the, the resources to tell these stories, and people like me are not. And maybe that's changing now.

That's interesting. I wonder why that is. Well, I come with a lot of I come with a stigma I come with a ball and chain attached and for a long time a lot of people have like taken the meeting with me, but ultimately like does someone want to be associated with me and all the baggage I carry does someone think that they can maybe even see the value in me personally, but can they convince the broader public to take me seriously? And that's like the problem is that I have been pigeonholed as a tabloid character

for so long that even if I've proved myself otherwise, people still associate me with tabloid. Yeah. And I hope that that's changing. I do like, this has been like my husband's like, crusade really. He more than anyone else is just like, it's not fair. You deserve to do great things.

You have a great perspective. And if only people would give you the chance. And you're a smart girl. Even listening to you speak, you're very articulate. And you're like, no, it's true. If you were just, get going. I didn't mean to interrupt you. I agree with you husband over there. You know? No, go on. I want to hear what you're like, no, it's true. If you just get going, I didn't mean to interrupt you. I agree with you husband over there.

You know, no, go on. I want to hear what you're going to say because you're going to say if they just give you the chance. Right. So today, what I've been empowered to do today is to have an independent podcast. Like me and my husband, it is just us, like literally, just us. Occasionally, we have like an audio engineer,

friend of ours, this point who we farm out some of the audio engineering work. But like, you have a nice cast of characters here who's helping you out. Hey. Hey. You've got lights, you've got cameras. We don't.

We just have the two of us. And we, people reach out to us, want to share their stories. And we do the very best we can with the resources that we have. And we do it entirely independently. Real, okay, I want to ask you about this we do the very best we can with the resources that we have and we do it entirely independently. Really? Okay, I want to ask you about this. This is actually very interesting because I did see the New York Times piece. That was then after the Atlantic, right? Okay, so I was saying like in the last

little while, you were, I saw the Joe Rogan thing. And things, thanks to the Atlantic for publishing this piece that I wrote because there's no guarantee that that will ever happen. Oh, right. It was great, though. It was great. I tell you I'm telling you, you're so articulate, you did a grid writer. Thank you. And you're welcome. And then last week with the New York Times thing, what I found super interesting in that was I,

like you would think by, and that's why I was saying earlier, there's been tons of documentaries, tons of different movies we know you're not getting paid for. You're gonna get paid from Italy, from what the wrongful conviction. The only really big paycheck it sounds like you've ever gotten was that big book advance for like four million or three point eight million. Three point eight million.

Harper Collins was great, loved working with them. It was a really great opportunity for me to sort of like just address the facts of the case from my own perspective. Right. I felt like that was super important. I thought that was going gonna be the only time that I would ever tell my story because I thought, okay, I'll just put myself out there

and then I'll go back to my quiet little life. And then of course, the world didn't let me go back to a quiet little life. So, and then what I also found was like, actually I had this really interesting moment. I was taking poetry classes and I found myself constantly writing poetry that was about this stuff.

It was about prison. It was about identity. It was about feeling like I no longer had control over my own life. And I was like, you know what? I'm not done processing this. Yeah. You know what? I feel like I have a red flag, like sort of alarm system now whenever I see it happening

to other people too. And I've slowly turned that into trying to do good work. Like, that perspective that I have, I've tried to turn into good work. Yeah. And then this is what I have to show for. And this way, well, first of all, I was going to say that that sounds like a lot of money to most people, but then you have to pay back all these other people. So you ended up with what, 200,000 of the three points?

Is that actually accurate? Yeah, yeah, like around that number, yeah. Yeah. I was paying off my families for all the things that they had. I had ongoing legal bills. I had, you know, agent fees. I had taxes. And like at the end of it all, I was able to take home around $200,000.

And the book sold well. Book sold well I think. I mean it was on the New York Times bestseller list but I can't, I don't know how many copies like. What year was that book though? 2013? It was 2013. Okay so that's, that was a long time ago.

It was a long time ago. So with all this good that you want to do, how are you like surviving? How are you making money? I would imagine you have a new baby. So it's not like $200,000 can't really get you that far for 10 years in your life. Let's be like honest, I am doing well compared to a lot of exonneries. Like a lot of exonneries come out of prison after like 40 years with a garbage bag and no one gives a shit. That's true. That's 100% that. I would acknowledge that.

I'm only saying that given how famous or notorious you were are, you would imagine you would have so many deals where people are throwing money at you, especially given well. If you go on Netflix, if you go on the deal, right? Like there are a lot of people who want to treat me like a tabloid object. That's true. So are you turning down a lot of shit?

Basically. And turning down things that I feel are either unethical or irresponsible media. And so like, or things that I just don't want, I don't want to do. Like I don't want to do a porn. I have nothing against porn. But that's what you're offered.

I was offered porn opportunities. I was offered like dancing with the stars. And I love dancing, but I don't need to be on dancing with the star. Like no offense to dancing with the stars. So this is like, how did you know not to do that? I mean, I, first of all, I'm not a celebrity. And so the idea of that show is celebrities dancing with professionals and I'm not a celebrity. And so the idea of that show is

celebrities dancing with professionals. And I'm not a celebrity. Like what I am known for is a horrible crime that I didn't commit. And so like I already know that I'm in a reputational grave and I'm having to claw my way out of it like a zombie. Yeah, exactly. And like I have to be very mindful of like it like a zombie. Yeah, I know. And I have to be very mindful of like the kinds of things

that I invest myself in. Totally. And I want, again, to do good work. I want to have a good impact. And I'm not going to do that by like dancing frivolously. I'm going to do that by speaking about big issues and writing and helping other people find their voice and fundraising for the

Innocence project and like these are the ways that I'm doing it and like I've had to sort of fight tooth and nail to have those opportunities. Now granted, like when my husband first met me, I was making minimum wage, working in like a tiny hole in the wall bookstore and feeling like I could not, I did not have like an opportunity to have anything else but like a very hidden existence. What year was this? That was back and I met him in 2015. We started dating in early 2016. So it was like early 2016 that he was like, you know what, Amanda? You get to have a bigger life than the little small hidden life that you have. Like you can do stuff. Like you deserve to do stuff. I was writing for like a

local newspaper and like that is so nice. He's like my biggest believer and he sort of has constantly been like convincing me that I can do great things. And I'm trying to live up to that. That is really, I know. I'm going to cry because that's actually so heartfelt. He's so basically you are working in a small bookstore behind and where, how did you meet him though? He was at the bookstore. No, he's a published author.

And so I reviewed his book for the local paper. And then I, you know, so he's got a great experience because like he's not a true crime guy. He's a poetry guy, right? Like he's a poetry guy. Oh, wow. And he sort of came into this world, my world, and was like, you know what, I'm not gonna Google you.

I'm just gonna hang out with you and be a person with you. And he then, we eventually started dating, and he was getting called boy toy in tabloids, and people photoshopping knives into pictures of him, and people saying that he must be a psychopath for wanting to date a psychopath. And like, so he slowly had to like figure out what was going on with this case.

But like he did not want to see me through the tabloid lens, through the lens of the case. He was just like, hey, you're a real person and you're worth spending time with. And I enjoy spending time with you. So let's just get to know each other. And that he was one of the first like friends, like actual friends that I made post-exoneration

when I felt like maybe I would never be able to make friends like a normal person ever again. So like he sort of made me believe a little bit, not just in humanity, but also in myself. Oh my gosh. That is such a, that's so nice. What is your name, bud? Christopher Robinson. What was your name, buddy? Christopher Robinson.

What was your book called? War of the Encyclopedias. Oh my God, that is really, that is such a night. And you can tell by the way you even said it, how authentic and true that is, right? And like how much of a gift that was, like that is not something I take for granted. No, absolutely not.

I mean, and so because from that, did you quit the job at the books or what did you do? I quit the job and like right around that time, I also, and this is like so much, so many props to broadly, which no longer exists even, but broadly was vices like women's interest arm and they were like, hey, Amanda, we heard you kind of write about stuff. Like, do you want to write about like women in prison for

like little online newsletter basically? And so I started writing articles for them. And that's how I got into the Scarlet Letter Reports. And I did this like Facebook vice series where I interviewed other shamed women. And so I did that. And then from there, I springboard and started doing other writing articles, other journalists. And I started just pursuing opportunities to like get my voice out there. Yeah. And I landed upon a true crime series where I was like telling the stories of true crime, like true crime stories, but really trying to hone in the perspective towards those who were directly involved and not like the sort of like salacious Like, oh, I'm gonna drink wine and like ruminate about a crime that I know nothing about like I really wanted to focus it on like

What is the direct human impact of how we are telling these stories of true crime? I started doing that and then from there Chris and I Developed labyrinths and we've been like broadening the scope of like the kinds of stories that we're telling. So I'm not just telling true crime stories, which I don't, I don't want to just tell true crime stories. I want to tell stories of like human depth and experience. And I feel like the danger of even just like constantly being pigeonholed into true crime is feeling like only there's a special kind of person

who experiences true crime. And there's only people who are directly impacted who could truly understand what that experience is like. And I wanna push back against that and say, we've all been through shit. We all know what it feels like. And you can understand what it feels like to be wrongly accused.

So like we all are implicated by the way the criminal justice system impacts us, but also we can all understand that we don't have to feel like it's a separate entity from us. Anyone can be wrongly accused, anyone can go to jail. Anyone can, because you were that, you represent that to people, which is actually maybe another thing that people are scared because it can easily have been them. Because you were just like, you were the girl next door and it happened to you. And people don't want it sometimes,

even think of that possibility for themselves. I agree. Right? And so it's like it's easier just to kind of push it away and be like, I'm not like her. Or then how else are you making money besides, you're making money from the podcast from LabBrun? So yeah, we have a few, we have a Patreon subscription, we have a few. How does that work

Patreon? Is it like to they pay monthly fee? Oh yeah, so monthly subscribers can decide like they're different tiers, I'm going to be five dollars a month or ten dollars a month whatever it is so they can decide what they want to pitch in and And then, so our Patreon is not Patreon.com slash nox Robinson. If you want to be a subscriber, and you get like, if you subscribe, like our podcast is free, so anyone can listen to it. But if you want to support us, you can subscribe. And then you also get access to like special content, like Chris and I put out every week we do something called

Mind Food where we like go out into the world and we try to find things that are worth reading or worth listening to and we like basically recommend them to our subscribers or Chris and I debate we do a thing called Who's Right where we like take a question and we just debate it between us to show like friendly what even like friendly debate can look like. Because there's this sense of like if we're not agreeing with each other, we can't have a conversation. That's what's happening in the world right now. Exactly. So we're trying to push back against that and say, actually, it's worthwhile to debate ideas just for that sake. Just to be in the practice of being okay and not feeling like your identity is at stake with every conversation that you ever have.

Yeah, because actually it's very timely. I feel like it's especially like God forbid that you're on one side of something and I'm on another, it's deadly now. People will just not family members, friends, I got like rooting for it over like, if you're vaccinated and not vaccinated, God forbid you bring up that topic or Politics, I mean anything is so everything is so divisive that like

You can't even have any kind of real debate now and let's your talk even even if I said I'm a gluten free I don't like vegan I'm vegan to anything. Yeah, so I love that you're doing that. That's great. Yeah No, it's an easy practice. Yeah,. And then how else do you guys make money? I'm occasionally I'm invited to like speak about my experience to public speaking appearances. So that that's a big thing. That's a good one. Do you have a good you have an agent? I do have an agent. Also people just reach out to me personally. Personally, so you'd make a great speaker. I see. Well, the challenge the challenge with that is that to honestly

convey the experience, I have to sort of break my own heart every time I do it. So it's not like I can go on a speaking tour, right? Like I try to keep the number of times that I do a public speaking event at a minimum because it is deeply, deeply challenging for me. And it involves me being in front of lots of people, and I don't love being a big group of people. So my ideal world is one in which I get to stay at home, work on my podcast, and try to share stories. And I'm also imagining lots of really cool ways

to tell my story even. I think there are a lot of ways that it's not fully been tapped into either because the focus has always been on Ditchie or didn't she do it. It's like, well, how about the experience of what is the survive prison? Do you know what that's like? Do you know what it feels like? No, but I know. I can tell you about it.

I have stories. I have stories. I want to one story. I want to one really good story actually. Okay. So a good story do you want a happy story or a sad story? How about a sad story or a happy story? How about a happy story? Okay, happy story. The prison environment there was one separate section and it was for mothers of young children, which meant that in the prison there were toddlers. And they were they were kept separate with their mothers who were imprisoned, but they were not separated from

their mothers when they were arrested. And so up to, I think, two years of age, women with very, very young children were kept in prison with their very, very young children. And when I was in isolation, I was very lonely. I would, there was actually a separate part of the prison where, like, it was like a little garden right near the, like, chapel that no one ever went into. And it was, like, very small, but it was where, it was the extra chapel that no one ever went into and it was like very small but it was where there was the extra space that they had for me to be if I needed to go outside like I was I had the right to go outside but I just they

didn't have a space for me so they put me there and it had there was like concrete walls on two sides and then there was a hallways that were like bars and then like plexiglass windows. And the toddlers every day in the morning were given a walk around the prison with a nun who volunteered there. So the moms had to stay in their cells. So the kids didn't always have to stay in their cells.

They would just be like, tautled around the prison with this nun and just kind of walk in circles around like the building. And in the mornings, when I was doing my walk in that little garden area, I would see them passing by through the Plexibas windows. And eventually, these little toddlers got used to seeing me. And they recognized me because I would do things like clown around for their entertainment when they were walking by. So I would be like, woo woo woo. I'm just like dance for them,

I ain't got them or whatever it was. And so they got to recognizing me. And then one day I happened to be like pulled in, like someone needed me to sign some documents or something. So I was at a desk in like the hallway where like they would pass by and they passed by and one of the little girls was just like,

eh, gola, and then ran up to me and hugged me. Because she had just seen me all the time. So great. And it had never actually interacted with me before. It was just through this plexiglass and then she ran up to me and hugged me. And I was her best friend. Oh my god, that's such a nice story.

It was a really good experience. It was always the hardest for me. And like, I was like her best friend. Oh my god, that's such a nice story. It was a really good experience. It was always like the hardest for me when I was, I miss, I love kids. And like, I miss being around like, you know, young people and so like her coming up to me. And like, also just like treating me for who I am. Yeah. Like, I'm in a prison where I'm considered a monster. And at least this like little girl girl sees me and just hugs me

and it's not sad, it's not a sad story. But that's what I mean, it's not to have to be sad, but it's emotionally charging because of your experience and that someone actually saw you for you and was excited to see you without knowing anything about anything. Yeah. Yeah.

That's a really good story. It's a great story. And also, you didn't know that babies were in prison. I was going to say, one minute here, my mom's going to take babies to what age? I mean, they both get up until two years old. And then they take the babies away. And where they put the ones.

Well, it depends. Do they have family or don't they? And if they don't have family, they go to the foster care system. So for the first two years, they can live in the cell with them. That's a terrible existence for a baby, that's amazing. It's different.

So they're in a separate ward. So there are cells, but they try to make them a baby friendly. They have toys, they have ribs, they have things like that. And they get to go outside. And they get to go outside in a baby friendly. They have toys, they have ribs, they have things like that. And they get to go outside. They get to go outside in a separate area. So they are given, they're accommodated more so that the kid doesn't have a traumatized experience. But at the same time, it's like, it's a jail.

Like it's a prison. It's not like, they're not, you know, like, fun little drawings on the walls. Like it's still a prison. I can't even, I'm also like at two years old, being torn apart from your mom. It's still a prison. I can't even, and also at two years old, being torn apart from your mom, and that was a work. I can't tell you the number of times that women who had their babies finally worked away from them, like try to commit suicide in prison. Oh, I was going to say that. It must have been how, that would be one of the sad stories.

I would lose my mind. Like, I cannot. I mean, now that you have your own baby, I mean, you can't even imagine, right? No, it's a worse thing I can think of. So that's like, by the way, in America, in the US, do they have the same type of thing with toddlers in jail? I honestly don't know that. At a certain point, you can't take the baby away from like a mom.

Like at a certain, like it's literally, like they call it the fourth trimester because like it it's survival depends upon being attached to the mom. So I imagine that there are similar circumstances or they try to give pregnant women or women who have just given birth at least like, you know, a home arrest or something like that. Like it would make more sense for that. But I can't actually speak to that. Like I don't know, especially, I imagine it's prison to prison, it's different.

I do know that there are a lot of programs that try to connect, especially mothers. And that's a whole prejudicial thing. Like it's considered like the experience considered like the relationship between the father and the children is less important than the relationship between the mother and the children. So in that way, there is a kind of, there's a problem for fathers who are now absent

because they're not allowed to be in their kids' lives. But I do know that there are a lot of programs that try to bring young children in to spend a significant amount of time with their mothers. So it's not just like that one hour, once a week experience, but it's like they get to be in a playroom with their mom for like five hours or something like that. Wow, okay, but it's not the same as living there

like in Italy, while the systems are so different. You said some, I'm kind of going back now to close the loop. You said when you used to come here to LA or New York and you're meet with people all the time to do projects and then they meet you and then nothing else. To pitch ideas and stuff like that. Right.

What can you tell, I mean, I don't know if you want to, but like, what kind of ideas were you pitching? Can you talk about one? Maybe someone will listen and be like, hey, you know what? I'm gonna do that with her. Yeah, let's see. What would be a good example of one?

Well, I have, I'm still trying to do any of them right now. I have a number of things that are in various stages of between pitch and development and whatever. I have a number of things that I'm working on. So one of them is a, is actually a, so one of the things that I've wanted to do is show what it, what it's like to go back into the world after you've been removed from the world for such a long time.

So that's so interesting. It's because what I've noticed is that the Exonery experiences one of which, you're exonerated, yeah, you got out of prison, you eat your first hamburger and then no one cares. Right. Then you go back to the world and no one really understands what your experience is like.

And what's interesting is that all exonaries have really different experiences. We all come from different circumstances. We all either our families are still there and they love us and they take care of us or they don't and like you're alone and you're figuring it out. And yet we have this this one thing in common,

this feeling of what it's we know it's like to have our identities and our freedom taken away from us. And how do we translate that back into the world and the challenges of doing that? Because the world moves at such a fast pace compared to prison, and it's so surreal to have a key to your own front door when you haven't been able to open a door for years, like on your own, someone else always opened it. So like, how do you start

dating again when you were wrongly accused of rape? Like, these are all questions that I find are super interesting, and I came up with a comedy series for this idea. Like, at first it was a drama, because I was like, oh, it's really dramatic. But then I was like, you know what? It's even like more surreal and absurd and it's like hilarity. Like the kinds of like just random everyday obstacles that people like who have been to prison, like find themselves in the real world

and they just think everything is just so silly now. Or I have a silly experience of like, oh, like, oh yeah, I have like, that would be amazing. All right, it would be fun. Yeah, so is that, like, oh, yeah, I have this. That would be amazing. All right, it would be fun. So is that, can I say, because someone helping you with that, that we both talked about already? So that one actually was going and going and going and then stopped going.

What happened? Well, people decided to move on. They said, oh, well, it's like, it's- Oh, you pitched it already. I already pitched it. And actually, it was taken up by a production company and all of that. But then eventually, they decided that, well,

this is, it's episodic. Everyone wants something that's going to take you. They want the story that has a cliffhanger at the end every time and that is easy to make. And this one was more of like my ideal vision of it cliffhanger at the end every time and that is easy to make. And this one was more of like my ideal vision of it was every episode you meet a new exonery who's facing a new challenge.

Yeah, and that's so interesting. People love that. Anything regarding any kind of crime is like the biggest area in the world right now. And then to like be the person and like, what I wanted to do was sort of like show like maybe at the very beginning or the end of the episode like this is just a regular person who's been in their life who's like having their challenges who's like going on a date and is a little bit nervous leading up to the date and you sort of only slowly unravel every episode

like what they were accused of and that is the thing that's coloring their experience and they're like absurd like the, like the absurd like visions of the self in the world or like maybe it's a woman who's going grocery shopping for the like, and she's just everyone's sort of like looking at her and you're like, why is everyone looking at her? And she's like picking her apples,

looking at them like the person looks at her and just everyone's just like looking at her and that surreal experience of her like coming home and just like, I would totally watch that. Did you come up with these? Yeah me and me and my husband came up with that idea. So to me these are great ideas. Well, I'm not just saying that because you're on the podcast like those are things I would actually find interesting to watch if they're done like the concepts one thing right. But then if you're if you, if it's executed properly and great actors, like, right.

And the timing of like the comedic timing, that would be really fun. Yeah. Well, and a great example of this, a lot of people are like, well, how do you make something so dramatic, so funny? That's why Tina Tina Fey did an amazing job with the incredible chemism. Did you? Of course I did. Of course I did.

Of course I watched that. I love that show. It resonated with me so much. Yes. And it's like so fucking fun. Yeah. And it did very well. It did very well because it was so,

it was like, it was a really traumatic experience. People like she had gone through something horrible. She was processing and she's trying to live in her life. Totally. I agree. This is the exonery experience as well. You don't think this girl can help you? The one that you're, you know, friends with right now?

Oh. Yeah. I say, I don't even know if I'm allowed to. Oh, I mean, let's let her be. But like, but she should help you. Well, I mean, she's already helping me in a million ways just by like being my big sister and, and, you know, these are really funny though. Those would be really good shows. Well, I try. I mean, see, big sister and, you know. These are really funny though.

Those would be really good shows. Well, I try. I mean, see, this is like, you make some, you make some good decisions though, like of what you're not doing. I mean, of course, to porn. How much did they offer you for that porn? Only 20 grand.

Come on. Are you joking? I'm worth more than 20 grand. 20 grand, soul thing. You're serious? That's all they offered you? Yeah, I think they only really offered me to say, like, we offered Amanda a porn. I think they only really offered me to say, like, we offered Amanda a porno.

I think they were just trying to advertise for themselves and they knew I was gonna turn it down. So, they made an offer that I had to refuse and then they were like, woo. What if they offered you a million? Would you do it? I don't think so, just because I feel like, to this day, unfortunately, I have no, I have friends who work in like

who are porn stars. Well, not porn stars necessarily. I like have nothing against porn stars. And I feel like the sex industry is not taken as seriously as it could. And, but that is in say that's just not my industry. It's, it's, and also after everything that I've been called, like it's the last thing I need.

That's the last thing. But like you would think, given what you've been called and everything around you, someone would have surely have offered you like a million dollars, not like 20,000, which is like a joke. Come on guys, I mean, you're, surely, which is worth way more than 20,000. Well, like I said, I think that they just were making

an offer that they just were making an offer that they knew I would refuse just so they could have the moment of publicity of the tabloids saying, man, an ox offered a porno. Yeah, probably true. Although you never know, maybe after this episode, you can offer like, you never know, right? Someone will be listening, oh, maybe.

I have other really awesome ideas that people should reach out to. 100%. You have a lot of good ideas, actually, because you're very smart in your clever. Is there anything else that I could ask you that I haven't asked you already? Well, I guess I asked you already how living outside

of After Being Exonerated, can you give us one story of that would be really interesting of when you came out acclimating back into the world. I can tell you a quick like joke story. Okay. So fun. Yeah. I'm not known for my punchlines. My husband has been on stand up and I'm more of a I'm just a silly person. I like to like go to run fair and get in character. But when I first came home, my family was just so excited.

We all gathered at my aunt's house. This was right when I got home. The day I got home and I'm there. I'm seeing my cousins who were infants when I left and now they're little people. And I'm hanging out with totally overwhelmed and they have a cake and they bring the cake out and they're like, a man, do you gotta cut the cake?

And I was like, you sure about that? Yeah. I was like, because you have to laugh. You come on. At least you have to have a sense of humor if you're gonna get through life. What you have to.

I mean, actually I do have one question that I was curious. Like when you left jail, how was that experience? When they said that you were free, your ex-honorator, what happened? What was that experience? I have a full podcast episode about that. Really?

I interview the guy Steve Moore, who's an XFBI agent who actually helped figure out that whole drama because usually what happens when you leave prison is you're giving a garbage bag full of your stuff and you push out the door and you have to find a ticket. Like that's the normal way of doing it. But because the prison knew that I was like, I was being hunted down by paparazzi on top of everything else, they allowed this FBI agent with the help of this Italian diplomat to like arrange a car to at least drive me out.

And of course, like there's a car chase people are ramming us from behind we're in the middle of the night we have to go to a safe house. This is this insane story of him like having to orchestrate this whole thing. And in the middle of the night you left? Yeah, I was in the middle of the night

because like I finally got the verdict at like 11 p.m. Like it was all day that they were deliberating and chambers. And then you got back into the, I remember they come. I brought, it was all day that they were deliberating in chambers. And then you got back into the, I remember they cut. I brought, I was brought back to the prison. What were you doing before that? Well, you're like, pacing or... So I spent many, many hours in, in the office of with the prison chaplain who was a friend of mine.

Like I'm an atheist, but he was a very, he is to this day a very good friend of mine. He was a friend of mine throughout the prison process. Just a very nice man. We played music together. And so he brought me into his office and we just sang songs together, cried together, talked. He was convinced I was going home. He was sure of it.

And he was so convinced that he actually surreptitiously brought a voice recorder into the prison, which you're not allowed to do, just so he could record my voice again before I was freed. And he was convinced and I was so scared. And then, of course, I was acquitted, I was freed. And I was brought back to the prison to just gather my belongings. I was not legally supposed to be there anymore.

So they're like, get out, get out, get out. And I had moments to say goodbye to people. Meanwhile, everyone's cheering, banging on pots and pans, like screaming, the entire prison was watching the summer news. And so people are going, Libertah, Libertah, like, ah, so I'm like, what are I calling you? Libertah.

No, Libertah, freedom. Oh, freedom. It's a tradition that we always did when someone laughed. But this was like the entire prison complex, the men's side. Like they had never met me before, but they watched on TV and we're like, hey, back to that. So everyone's going nuts.

And I'm whisked out, thrown into a car, and then it's a car chase, and then my mom's thrown into the car, and she's like, call people on the phone. I'm like, I don't know how to use a cell phone anymore. And like, oh my gosh. So overwhelming. It's a great story. I go into it and like lots of detail on my podcast. That is a really good story. I'm going to go listen to that episode. Yeah, it's good. And it's also like the kind of behind the scenes work. And it's so interesting

to hear it from his perspective because here's a person who volunteered his time to my family to help us. And he had never met me before. He had no idea who I was. And he describes what it was like when we finally got to that safe house. And we were like, it was me, my mom, him, and the person who was hosting us in Rome. And he sort of saw, like, sort of knocked on the door to, like, check on me and my mom or in one room. And I couldn't sleep. Like, I was, like, pumped on adrenaline. Like, I just could not sleep. I was almost like, I won't tell you, I don't want to give it away

because I want you to listen to the last episode. But he comes in and he's like, oh, man, why aren't you sleeping? And I told him why. And he was just like, so I'm going to let you listen to that. I think we're going to have to bring that back to the finger. See? You can do it. You can figure out ways to do clip anger. That's so interesting. OK, I actually wouldn't listen to it after this whole thing.

Because that way I'm going to do a link. Will you promise? Because I'm actually really curious about that. Yeah. And he's a great guy. And he has lots of crazy FBI stories that are fun and tear. I love actually really curious about that. And he's a great guy and he has lots of crazy FBI stories that are fun. I love that. I love that.

Amanda, how do people find more information? They can listen to Labrant, obviously. Yeah. So, Labrants is free, available to everyone. You can follow us on Patreon at patreon.com slash nox robinson. You can follow me on Twitter at Amanda nox and also on Instagram at a.com slash nox robinson. You can follow me on Twitter at amanda nox and also on instagram at amama nox. Oh Amanda Marie nox it wasn't like mama I just like am am a nox Amanda Marie nox. Well I'm gonna say this was truly I think if not like in my top three faith top two

favorites because thanks. First of all, because you're also so real and honest and authentic and I, you, there's not, it's just, it was so nice to talk to you. Thank you. No, really. And thanks for accommodating like my mom brain because like I'm just so tired.

I'm not. This is your mom brain. I can't even imagine what your brain is when you didn't just give birth 16 weeks ago or whatever it was. I mean, because you were sharp and on point and smart. Really, you're gonna have a big future, my dear. Well, that's what my husband says.

I mean, I'm like, we'll see. I'm with your husband. There's no guarantee in life, And that's okay because I'm honestly grateful for everything I have right now. No, I'm swear Chris, I'm with you. Wherever it is. I think you are. Like I, I'm not even worried about now that I've actually met you and spoke to you and like, oh, you were worried about me before. Well, no, because I don't even, you don't know what you don't know. Yeah, that's right. And like, you know, you always came across me like very like smart, like wise and intelligent. But when you meet you, you can see that you're like a kind person and you're a good person. Well, next time, let's hit that treadmill again. 100%.

Oh my god, no idea. I made a set at the table with me. Who would have thought that you would want to do the treadmill after giving her a love it? Love it. I'm in the gosh. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for with me. Who would have thought that she would want to do the treadmill after giving her it? Love it. Love it. I'm in the car. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for having me. You can get to know me, inspire you This is your moment, excuses we in heaven at The habits and hustle podcasts, power by happiness