Habits and Hustle - Episode 157: Dr. Keith Campbell – Nationally Recognized Expert on Narcissism, Personality, and More!

Episode Date: March 1, 2022

Dr. Keith Campbell is a Nationally Recognized Expert on Narcissism, Personality, and Cultural Change. With the constant misuse and misunderstanding of terms like, psychopath and narcissistic Campbell is here to set things straight. Not only defining and explaining these terms but how to recognize them and what to do if you find yourself in a relationship or employed by a narcissist. It’s complicated, it’s shrouded in misinformation, and Campbell seems our only solution to grasp the topic. Feeling beholden to a narcissist at work? Think you may be stuck loving someone who might not be able to love you back? Prepare for some eye-opening revelations as Dr. W. Keith Campbell guides you through the confusion of narcissism. Youtube Link to This Episode Dr. Campbell’s Website – https://wkeithcampbell.com/ ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail] 📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Vitamin Water Zero Sugar just dropped in all new taste. It was zero holding back on flavor. You can be your all feeling. I'll play and all self-care you. Grab the all new taste today. Vitamin Water Zero Sugar, nourish every you. Vitamin Water is a registered trademark of glass O. Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins.

You're listening to Habits in Hustle, Russia. Today on the podcast we have Dr. Keith Campbell. Dr. Campbell is a social psychologist and a professor in the behavioral and brain sciences. He is best known for his research and writing on narcissism. Dr. Campbell is also the author of several books, including the Handbook of Narcissism, the Narcissism Epidemic, and also his newest book, The New Science of Narcissism. Understanding one of the greatest psychological challenges of our time and what you can do about it. We had a really fascinating conversation on the topic. People used the word narcissism or he's narcissistic or she's narcissistic really kind of loosely

these days. And we talked all about the differences between having a narcissistic personality disorder and just having traits of narcissism, narcissism, really fascinating conversation. I really think that you're going to enjoy this podcast and like I really enjoyed, I really enjoyed having them on the podcast and talking to him. So let me know. Please leave a comment, a review. Let me know your thoughts.

Your feedback is always so important to making this podcast better as we go. So please participate in letting me know. Bye. All right, guys, today this is gonna be a good episode. I hope so. Keith, you got a lot of pressure on you. A lot of pressure.

It's gonna be great. We have Dr. Keith Campbell. Dr. Keith Campbell is the leading world renowned specialist in narcissism. How do you like that? I'll take it. Why not? You might as well.

He has, his first book was a national bestseller called the Narcissism, the Narcissism Epidemic. His newest book is called the New Science of Narcissism, understanding one of the greatest psychological challenges of our time and what you can do about it. This is a topic. I mean, people love talking about narcissism.

They do. Yeah. And 10 years ago, they didn't even know how to pronounce it. And they still don't. I know. But it just, it exploded. It's wild. Why do you think that is?

Is it because the fact that people are becoming more and more narcissistic, that they want to talk about here about themselves? I mean, I think there was a generational change in narcissism, but a lot of that, and young people, has started to turn around, we're seeing a lot more depression, unfortunately. Right. So, after the great financial crisis, a lot of it has been social media, and that everybody has to be kind of their own producer, they're on celebrities, so you got, you know, 15-year-olds out there selling them, you know, 15 year olds out there selling them, you know, selling their image,

selling their brand. So there's a lot of pressure that way, and then we live in this sort of celebrity culture, so there's that part of it. So I think there's a lot more interest in narcissism. Another piece is individualism and social isolation. You know, as we're kind of isolated and individualized as a society,

narcissism becomes more important. We're not talking about our families and our groups and the bowling league. We're talking more about ourselves. So basically because there's a lesser focus on community and much more on individualism. Yeah. And individualism can go bad in a lot of ways. And narcissism is one. Absolutely.

Because now everybody is a personal brand, like everybody, depend not only if you're a company or a product, but a person. And like you said, we are all addicted to social media. So it's like rampant now. Right, because you're out there doing it and you go, I have to do this for work. Because if I'm not out there doing my social media work,

my branding, everyone's gonna forget about me and then what am I gonna to do? I'm not going to have a job. I can't do anything. So I've got to work on it. Everyone else is doing the same. So it becomes competitive branding, right? Exactly. Individuals. And a lot of us don't have that much to say. That's the problem, right? And you're also looking at yourself 24 hours a day. And, you know, also with these filters and not. So when you are not on a filter, you see yourself and you become so upset and depressed. That is what we're seeing at the cultural level.

Will you make a social media world? People who are narcissistic, who are self-focus, they're like, hey, this is my dream. You can have shallow, I can be shallow and have people pay attention to me and like me, and I don't have to reveal too much about my inner messiness. Right, right.

And they're like home run. So they're out there winning. Right. And then everyone else is like, I gotta play the same game, but I don't like looking at myself that much. And well, maybe I can make an image I like and I spend all my time making the image of Keith online and then I go home like you're saying

and looking the mirror in the morning. And go, who is this old dude? Look at that. That's the most depressing thing I've ever seen. And then you get depressed. And so there's a real emptiness. A lot of times people talk about narcissism and emptiness. And I think that's part of it.

So you just focused on an image and you're trying to impress people you don't care about. Really? Just trying to get likes or whatever. Isn't that crazy? It's dark. I mean, this is crazy. Where our world now has become like, how many likes or how many follows you have?

Because other people are, I guess, what is it? They're judging you based on your worth on that stuff, especially if your work is involved with that, right? Like you're not worthy, if you don't have a million followers or 500 likes. They will judge you based on your follower count. Yeah. And I will be judged poorly, I would like to say.

I mean, I don't even have Instagram. I don't even have Instagram. I should, I have a fake account. I look at fishing stuff in occasion. Only fishing stuff in case of. Yeah, fishing and. So you're not a narcissist then? I'm at fishing stuff in occasion. Only fishing stuff, I guess. Yeah, fishing and... So you're not a narcissist then? I'm really not that narcissistic.

I mean, there's that old saying, you know, research is me search. Right. And... So yeah, and like I got issues, believe me, but I could be, my self talk is a little more negative. Right. I tend to struggle more with depression a little bit. But doesn't the

aren't there correlations? Let's start from the beginning. Because I think it's what I find fascinating about your books and about the research I've done, there is correlations between narcissism and depression, narcissism and like all this emptiness and just because you're entitled or because let's first discuss what is narcissism at its core. And then let's discuss, is that the same as having the narcissistic disorder? Yeah. Go on. So yeah, here's the problem with narcissism. It's first, you know, years ago,

no one could really say the word because it's a hard word. It's like an extra acid. It should be like, and it really used to be narcissism. And then they change it, you know, in the old text, it's narcissism. And then they changed it, you know, in the old texts, there's narcissism. And then it becomes narcissism because it's based on the Greek myth of narcissists. And narcissists was this, you know, beautiful dude. And he was looking for the love of his life.

The one person he fell in love with was Echo, the nymph who repeated everything he said and she faded away. And then he ended up falling in love with his own reflection, water and dine, and turned in different versions of this. But he turns into a flower, which we call the Narcissus, or the Daily. And so, and there's a Salvador Dalai, and it's a great painting of this. So this image has been around in art a lot.

It's a hard word to say. No one could say it. And now everyone talks about it, but they don't know what it means. So they're like, yeah, my ex-boyfriend was such a narcissist. Why? He's kind of a jerk. Well, narcissists is a little different than just being a jerk. A lot of jerks out there, you know?

Some are narcissistic, some aren't. So people are using it incorrectly. Part of the problem is there's really three ways we use the term in psychology and the research. The first is there's a personality trait and the idea of a trait means we all differ on these traits. We all have some level of narcissism, some are higher, some are lower, and there's costs and benefits to both high and low narcissism.

Within the trait of narcissism, there's two faces or two kinds. So there's grandiose narcissism. And this is the kind, you know, I've been up in LA here. You kind of think of it, you know, celebrities and the politicians. And it's that extroversion and confidence, and sometimes drive and ambition, fame-seeking, attention-seeking behavior. But that's married with a sense of entitlement, a sense of being superior to other people, a sense of maybe feeling you're just kind of fundamentally better than other people,

antagonism and some anger. So those two things together, that grandiose narcissism is almost like, it's kind of like antagonism with a really pretty face on it. And sometimes you find people who are really just extroverted and attention seeking, but they're nice people. So they can be narcissistic, but they're kind of oblivious and you talk to me like, and they're like, I'm sorry, I just wouldn't think, you know, they're not bad, they're just self-centered. Right. And that's a difference.

Yes. Yeah, and that's this more grandiose side. And then the more vulnerable side is you have that sense of entitlement and sense of importance. I'm an important person. I deserve special treatment, but you're a little insecure.

You have low self-esteem. You're a little introverted. You're a little fearful. So what do you do? You can't go out in the world and be successful because you're kind of scared, right? You can't go out there and be a celebrity because you don't feel good in front of the camera.

You're like, but in your mind you do. So you end up with a fantasy world where you're kind of telling stories about how great you are. In the book I talk about serial killers, I mean, spree killers, that's actually these mass shooters who write manifestos before shooting. And a lot of those manifestos is like the world is unfair because I don't get the what I deserve

I'm going to show you who the real alpha male is So sometimes with this more vulnerable narcissism You see people that seem really insecure and shy but occasionally with the criminality They'll act out to sort of show dominance So is that one is is there is the vulnerable one more? Is it is it worse than the first one than the grandiose one? Yeah, so the grandiose narcissism is really pretty effective in a lot of ways. So if you're in a leadership position, if you're young,

if you're in LA, being a little bit grandiose works, it's going to make you work pretty well. It's probably going to have a negative consequence on your close relationships over time because you're going gonna value maybe new relationships or celebrity over maintaining closeness, and that might have a cost, but it's a bearable cost. And the people that are probably gonna suffer

from grandiose narcissism, or grandiose narcissists or people who love them and wanna be with them that aren't getting what they need. Right. Because they're kinda signed up for different relationships. The narcissist like this is great, but I also want this and this and this. And the person who's more love focused,

like I just really want the relationship. Right. So that's gonna be conflict. And then the other thing those grandiose people do is they get into a lot of power. And then they can do damage in power. So they aren't going to political office or celebrity office.

So that's where grandiosity can get in trouble. So wait, hold on, I wanna ask you something. Yeah. Yeah. So between the, so like, you see like Tony Stark would be like an example of a grandi. Very nice. Because people who are also super likable, right? Yes. They have like a likable quality. Absolutely. And research with narcissism, people of grandios, if you meet them, initially, you like them. I mean, on average, they're just likable people,

because they're extroverted, confident,, you like them. I mean, on average, they're just likable people because they're extroverted, confident. People you like. But then does it change over time? Because I like Tony Stark from Iron Man 1, all the way through, you know? So imagine you're married to Tony Stark. And Tony Stark, she's like, Hey, Tony, I want to take the kids out.

And Tony's like, well, I've got my genius plan. But what is it, Tony? I'm not sharing you with my genius plan because I'm the genius. I'm gonna leave for three months and work on this. You're like, well, what about our marriage, Tony? What's about me right now? So on the surface, they're all fun and happy and they're very likable, but in a deeper way. Yes, I know. No, no, go ahead. Tell me deep committed trust relationships are what fall apart. Right. So if you want a deep committed trust and relationship

with somebody's sort of shallow and self-absorbed, it's going to be a problem. Even though you go, oh, that person's so likable, look how extra, extra vertive air and how charming and charismatic, I really like that Tony Stark. I'd love to be his bro, you know. Right. Right. But you might not get that from him. Is there ever like, like, you could have some of it, but not all of it. Like, you could be a deep thinker, but also be a grandiose. Oh, absolutely. So these things, I mean, the way I hate to say it,

but the way it personally is really complicated, and you find people who are grandiose and kind of honorable, and those people can be really a problem. Because they see. It does affect combination. Yeah, that combination can be really dangerous, because they're really insecure. So people like Tony Stark, you're like Tony your an idiot.

He goes like, no, I'm not. He doesn't care. He doesn't care because he knows you smart. But if he was insecure, he'd be like, I'm not an idiot. I'm gonna prove it to you by killing you with a real laser weapon. Wait, so there's three kinds of grandiose is like a Tony, the vulnerable used to like a George

because he has that right. Yeah, that's the kind of the more, yeah. Like self deprecating. Self deprecating, a little depressive, yeah. And so he's not dangerous per se. Those, they can be, but usually they're not doing enough to be dangerous. Usually they're dangerous to themselves.

So people who are vulnerable and narcissistic are depressed, they're anxious, they don't feel they're getting a fair shake. They go to therapy for depression, and this is why they used to call it covert narcissism, because they go into therapy and they're like talking about their depression. And the therapist in there after three sessions,

was wait a second, you really, you kind of think you're a big deal. You're kind of a narcissist. But I didn't know it. Because it's kind of like a hidden narcissist. A narcissist. He won't expect it. And then it comes, oh wow, I did it.

This person seems shy and kind of introverted and nervous. And I talked him a few times and turned out they feel like everyone should be paying attention to him and that's why they're not happy. So then who would be a combo? So what you find, something like Donald Trump is an interesting kind of a combo character. Or is he the one that, what would he be,

what would he have a narcissistic personality? So that's what I'm gonna say. Well, that's a, that's a longer discussion that maybe. We've got time. Yeah, I know. So what happens is with the disorder, which is a third type of narcissism, when your,

your narcissism is, and your personality becomes extreme and inflexible. So you're very narcissistic and you can't turn it on and off. So when your kids come home, it's a birthday party. It's about you. You know, when you're... Is it that? That's when it becomes a disorder. So that's that's narcissistic personality disorder. Yes. So when it becomes extreme and flexible and then to be a disorder, it has to lead to clinically significant impairment. Meaning a psychiatrist or other, you know, clinician has to say, yeah, Keith, your narcissism is significantly

damaging your life in a couple areas. It might be your relationships, it might be your decision making it work, your ego is too big, you're not taking feedback, so you're not growing enough. It might be your cognitive distortions, your kind of risk taking, it could be different things like that. So they come up with a couple of things. Often it's interpersonal. You marriage is falling apart.

Your family is falling apart. Your work, you get fired at work. If it's impairing in a significant way, it's inflexible. You've been like that since your kid. You're not just hopped up on cocaine or something. They would say, yeah, that's a disorder. The way narcissistic personality disorder is described as it's primarily grandiose, but there's also some vulnerability in it. It's a bit of a mess. And that can be, again, it can be diagnosis and disorder

and treated that way. And an NPD or narcissistic personality disorder is like one to two percent of the population. So this is supposed to be all live in LA. That's the jail guard. All live in New York in LA. Well, you imagine though, you're like, well, I'm somebody who really, I think I'm a really special person. I think the world should know where are you going to go. Yeah, absolutely.

You're going to go straight to all I will. Keep coming back. You got plenty of space. Oof, not how you would have done that. you like working with people you can rely on like USAA who has helped guide the military community for the past 100 years. USAA get a quote today. Vitamin water just dropped a new zero sugar flavor

called with love. Get the taste of raspberry and dark chocolate for the all warm, all fuzzy, all self-care, zero self-doubt you. Grab a with love today. Vitamin water, zero sugar, nourish every you. Vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass O. Well, you know, there's a friend of mine once said to me, and I think it's so true. It's like in order to be super successful and really go after it, you have to have a bit of a, you have to have a level of entitlement to even think like, well, why not me? Why not me? And the truth of the matter is, I think that I have that in me, right?

Because that's, I think it's like, well, if it's gonna happen to someone, why couldn't this X whatever it is, that's been in me? Or, you know, why not? Like, and having that kind of like naivety is it kind of, or is that like, is there like a difference? Or do you need to have that title midnight?

I call it naivety. Yeah, I mean, it's more than narcissism myself. No, I, when I look at it in my sense, it's like I say like, I'm willing to do anything. I don't know if I'll pull it off, but I'll give it a shot. Right. And I'm happy to try. Right.

And so, yeah, that's that, that's risk-taking, that's extroversion, and that's like an ingredient of narcissism too. Right. But it's ingredient of a lot of things. So that's an ingredient of boldness. It's an ingredient of, you know, fearless dominance. That's another trait we talk about. Fearless, fearless dominance. So that's, um, that's a trait they describe psychopathy

with. Or it's an aspect of psychopathy, fearless dominance. In the military work, they talk about Audie Murphy, who is this great, who's most decorated soldier in World War II, who became a Hollywood star. And he was kind of the example of fearless dominance. It's just a bo... Chuck Yeager, the test pilot. Oh, okay. So fearless dominance is somebody who's got,

it's the guts of narcissism, but not necessarily the ego piece. So Chuck Yeager's like, yeah, I'll go kick ass and fly this feet of sound. And, you know, I feel good about it, but he's not walking around afterwards signing autographs, going, hey, getting in front of the camera, let's talk about Chuck Yeager.

Right, right. Because he just wants to go fly the plane. Right. Because he's bold, but he doesn't need, he doesn't need the fans following him around. Absolutely. And love the way you say bold, because, you know, you're obviously, you know, what I'm doing with my life with this boldness. Yeah. And my book that's coming out, like not for a long time. And I used you as, um, obviously as an expert to help me with it. So where is, is, where is the boldness and narcissism? So boldness, do my hands.

Boldness and extroversion and driving ambition. So boldness, do my hands. Boldness and extroversion and drive and ambition are kind of these, you know, we just think it vertical. It's not even, it's not even going to circle. To the circummedient, to circle, it's like Ian and Yang. So boldness is that extroversion, drive, gang, energy piece. And that's really useful for success. It's important for leadership,

it's important for getting anything done. If you have boldness and you're a nice loving person, you're not a narcissist, you're a bold, loving person. If you have the boldness and you're kind of an entitled dick, a little bit narcissistic. Right. Boldness itself is at the problem. It's when you combine it with antagonism.

So Narciss, the thing that we... What do you mean, keep on saying antagonism. I know antagonism is a hard word. Are you saying in the book? I know, it's so technical. So if you take all of personality and you kind of put it into big buckets, every take all of these personality traits, your thousands of traits, boldness and confidence and cleverness and kindness and all these different things.

If you put them all in boxes and say how many traits are there really? They're about five. It might be six, it might be four, but really we come up with, and we call these the big five traits. And they spell ocean or canoe to make it easy. Really? Yeah. So the big five traits are, I'm just do this, openness to experience, which is really about creativity

and aesthetics and philosophy and ideas. And the C is conscientiousness, which we were talking about earlier, which has to do with discipline and being organized and responsible and taking care of yourself, and that's a really important trait for health and a really important trait for wealth. And then you have extraversion, which most of us think about as sociability, like I'm a social person, but extroversion and personality also means drive or ambition or energy.

So there's that extroversion piece, agreeableness, which is about being kind, polite and rule following. The flip side of agreeableness is antagonism, which is about being a little bit entitled, and looking out for number one versus the group. So when I'm talking about antagonism, I'm talking about sort of the opposite of agreeableness. I've got it. Okay. Yes. It's meanness, but it's like being mean and self-centered,

but difficult. Difficult is a good way to put it. Yeah. And then the final trait with the ocean model is neuroticism. And neuroticism is the old fashioned word we use for things like anxiety, depression, and kind of hostility, like hostile aggression.

And so what you see with narcissism is if you take that drive, that extroversion piece, and you mix it with low antagon, or low agreeableness. So somebody is not that agreeable, not that drive, that extroversion piece and you mix it with low agribleness. So somebody who's not that agreeable, not that nice, not that cooperative, but really driven, that's more grandiose narcissism. And people like that are pretty like a couple of people, as long as they're on your side.

And then if you take that meanness or that antagonism and you mix it with neuroticism, with anxiety and depression, you end up with vulnerable narcissism. So those folks don't do as well because they don't have the drive. Got it. But they feel really bad because of neuroticism. That's actually, I don't understand that. Does that make sense? It doesn't. It doesn't. I think about these things as the big five is kind of the ingredients, the basic personality ingredients, and then you mix those together to get different traits. I like that.

No, that makes that makes sense to me. So then what I'm curious about then before we move on to the next thing I want to really talk about is you were saying some of the relationships, like how people have relationships with people like that. And you talked about something in the book about the chocolate cake model or something. Can you just talk about that a little bit? Yeah, I come up with my scientific models.

And I give them these silly names because a lot of science people give these names, like, dude, they're just models. These aren't mathematically specified models. We're just trying to figure out how the world works. Come on. So here's the idea with the chocolate cake model. mathematically specified models. We're just trying to figure out how the world works. Come on. So here's the idea with the chocolate cake model.

What we were talking about earlier is if I meet somebody, if I'm driving around LA and I met a celebrity right now, the person would probably be confident and extroverted. And I'd be like, what a nice guy. I can't believe we got to me. Like I was in Malibu colony once, and I met the guy from police academy, the star.

Remember? I was Stephen Gutten. Good. Oh my God, Stephen. It was so long. I love that movie. I love Tim. I cracked up so much in this guy's drive

with his short prime out body serving with these like weird. It's just a weird, I love LA. It's so weird. I don't even know. It's true, right? But you go, what a nice guy. It's like reality. Right.

So this guy could be a total psychopath. I don't know, but he seemed confident and extroverted, attractive guy. I'm like, what a likable guy, right? So, so here's what happens when you're dating. You go out to the, you go out and meet people and you meet people who are grandiose narcissists and you go, God, I really like this person. They're confident. They're engaging. They seem really successful. And I really feel excited dating them. This is really exciting. And you start dating and it's great for a while. And then what happens in relationships, and this is cultural, but ideally, I mean, we tend

to start with excitement. It's more sexual, it's more passions, more fun, hot. And then it becomes like, hey, let's get some commitment. Let's get to know each other. Let's look in a little bit. Let's think about our future. There's a transition. With grandiose narcissism, there's no transition.

So you start dating, I'm starting dating Steve Gutenberg. I don't know why I'm dating Steve Gutenberg and this example I remember his name. So I'm dating this guy and it's like, I was great, so much fun. We went to the opening of police academy six. I got to meet the guy that does the funny voices. It was, this is the greatest relationship ever.

And I'm like, Steve, let's talk about marriage. He's like, what are you talking about? I'm a frickin' star. I'm doing Police Academy 16. I'm just gonna premiere at and Beijing, man. I don't need this. And you go, what happened? What, I was so stupid.

I thought I was in a normal relationship. So the idea of the chocolate cake model is when you give people a choice between eating a piece of chocolate cake and eating a nice salad or some broccoli or something, people go, I want the chocolate cake, they eat the chocolate cake,

they feel really got a great chocolate cake class. And I felt great, I was all fired up, like, woo! 20 minutes later, I'm like, might I get depressed, might I get sugar high crashes? I'm like, why did I eat that chocolate cake? You're bloated, you're guilty. You're bloated.

I'm like, I'm such an idiot. Why did I do that? Why was I so stupid to eat the chocolate cake again? And I'm like, dude, this chocolate cake. Like, nobody's salad sucks. You don't want to sell it. But if you ate the salad in 20 minutes, you'd be like, I'm a healthy person.

I eat salad, I'm a good person. So that's what happens in these relationships where you date these more grandiose narcissists, you get this big spike of satisfaction, then they kind of crash. Right. And then even crash is worse because you're like, what an idiot am I.

Why was I so stupid to date that person? Like, kind of a narcissist. Of course, he's attractive. This is what he does. Of course, I mean, he's a tract of guy. That's why you dated him. Right, right, right. So you get like, you get like kind of pulled in,

but then it never really ends well. Or it doesn't really, there's never, ever any meat on the bone. Exactly. I used to call it the sizzle steak probably, but no one needs meat anymore. But it's the idea that it's like there's the sizzle in the relationship and the steak. And you get all the sizzle, but no one needs meat anymore. But it's the idea that it's like there's the sizzle in the relationship and the steak,

and you get all the sizzle, but there's no steak, and that's what happens. So what happens in the vulnerable one, in the vulnerable narcissists? Vulnerable narcissists aren't that attractive. You're not really attracted to them. And so they don't do as much interpersonal damage as the other, as the other.

And it's the other time because they're not, they're just not that attractive. So, okay, because a big topic is always is gaslighting. People are always talking about gaslighting. So, gaslighting is a term from an old movie where, you know, it was a husband, I think, making his wife crazy by, and he do different things. Like, he changed the lights and he'd be like, I didn't change the lights. Are you going crazy?

The lights are the same. Right, right, right. And so that's the idea of gasoline. Is it screen with your head? Yeah, it's a, it's a, yeah, some mind fuck. It basically say, you know, reality, the person is changing reality and when you say reality is changing,

they say, no, it's not, you're changing, you're crazy. So what, who does that? And right? No, I know they do that. But is that the grandiose? No, it's not more of a disorder. It would be more grandiose and it could be the disorder as well. And is it common? It's, well, I'll tell you, there's no research on it because it's not. No, because I had a student who did all the groundwork for it and it just, this just hadn't been done. I mean, there's no really good measures of this. So it's a way people talk about it.

In the research, we've looked at Game Plane, which is similar idea, which is like in relationships, and like, I'm really attracted to you and committed. Oh, you are? No, I'm not. Why did I say that? I was drunk. I'm sorry.

Oh, I said I didn't love you. I love you. That kind of, you know. Back up, yeah. That game playing. So it's not really a narcissistic thing? Narcissists do the game playing because it's a way of keeping power

and control in the relationship. Because if I'm in a relationship and I'm the one setting the rules, changing the dynamics, I have all the power. Right, so are they doing it intentionally? Yes. They are, okay, so that's like, so that's an element of how,

because I was watching something, I don't know, I think it was your TED talk, I don't know, I was watching, and I read all the comments. And there were people who were like severely upset with some of them, because they are in these like, really hard relationships. And, you know, we're talking about it now, like more on a, you know, frivolous level,

but then there's also these deeper rooted issues when it comes to relationships in these people. There's a couple issues. When I talk about everything, I tend to be pretty lighthearted about it because the world is so dark and horrible that I don't really see my choice. And also, that's not probably the norm. Right.

And with narcissism relationships, most of it is kind of small because most of us aren't with these psychopathic relationships. Right. But when you talk to people, and I've talked to a lot who have been in these relationships, they're horrifying, and horrible, and controlling, and people will do stuff like the stories. I mean, the worst stories I've heard husbands do is they will, you know, they'll be married, narcissistic husband because I want to divorce. I don't want to pay for it. So what I do is get my wife so pissed off she's going to hit me. So I'd go there and tell she throws something at me and then I call the cops. Cops you up and they have to arrest somebody

for domestic abuse. Oh, your wife just hit you. Right. Oh wow. Then you go to court, say, well, my wife's abusive. She attacked me. You mean you were a dictator and she smacked you like. So that's kind of manipulative kind of. Yeah. Like it's horribly psychopathic and manipulative. And this stuff happens. I don't say all the time, but I've heard this story many times. So is that a psychopath or is it that? Narcissism and psychopathy are kind of like cousins. And when it gets extreme, you know, the difference is, you know, psychopaths, we usually think are like less focused on attention

and have a little less or a little more impulsive, but they're very similar disorders. So I have like a lot of psychopathy looks like narcissism advice for us. I have like Machiavellian in all this. Yeah, Machiavellianism is a personality trait that's supposed to describe really sophisticated manipulativeness like in Game of Thrones. Like some of the characters, like the little finger, there's some of the advisors, they've real sneaky and manipulative.

Right. That's what Machiavellianism is supposed to capture. That's sort of just and manipulative. That's what Mnotmokkye valianism is supposed to capture. That's just the manipulative part, but not so much the self-centeredness because I don't necessarily need to be famous. I just want to have control and manipulation. Right. And is that common in the grandiose? Yes, they related. So sometimes you'll hear people talk about the dark triad.

I don't know if you're first there. Yeah. Down my list here, you talk about, well, the dark triad and the light triad, right? So, yeah, so what happened was people started noticing like, hey, we're doing research on psychopathy, and this guy's doing research on bachievalinism, and these guys who are doing research at narcissism are very similar. Well, what they share is they share that trait of antagonism or low agreeableness. So you take all these sort of traits that have to do with being a little bit mean and self-centered and selfish. And then there's different

faces of those. So if you're just more manipulative, it's Machiavellian. If you're more attention seeking, it's more narcissistic. If you're more, you know, sort of just looking out for number one, and maybe more impulsive, it's more psychopathic. But it's the same, it's just flavoring that, like, here are all the mean people, the mean selfish people. And then let's just try to. So what's the, who cares? So all this is done just to have a label? Like, what's the difference? Well, I mean, So all of this is done just to have a label? Like, what's the difference? Well, I mean, these labels have historic meaning to them. So they kind of came up in different ways.

So the people studying psychopathy, the people studying sociopathy, the people studying narcissism, the people studying antisocial personality disorder. And so people are doing these different things. They're all kind of the same. So we think of them as just cousin traits. They're not just little differences.

I don't make a big difference over labels. Because these things are all on a continuum. Right. So people are studying those things. And then what happened is you got in the clinical world, the world of psychiatry, and they said, well, we can't have all this. There's too much.

So they had these political fights. And so there's no psychopathy. If you go to the DSM There's like a DSM 5 and you know the the the psychiatrist handbook. There's a psychopaths are in there Because no because they have they have anti-social personality disorder and narcissistic personality disorder and if you had a Psychopathy it would kind of fit right across the two of them So because of the fights, the anti-social people won the political fight, so they got their construct in the book,

and the psychopathic people didn't. So then, where does this all, it's so crazy. So where does this all, the, the, these mental health behaviors come from? Is it from childhood, from trauma? Because what you were saying earlier and I wanted to ask you was about social media right because the social media even if you work so much on narcissists It makes you more of a narcissist it pulls for it and reinforces it for sure because if you're if you were narcissistic Imagine you just two random kids in LA and one is like you know what I really like I like people who look at me and comment on how hot I am because I'm really hot Yes, and the other person's like,

I'm really insecure. I don't know how to fit in. I don't really like how I look because my face is a little fat. Who's going to be happier on social media? True, but then what I'm saying is, does it kind of create to monster? So it's reinforcing.

It's really weird. But the people who are not naturally that way. The people who are narcissistic, it becomes very reinforcing of those traits. But is it because, how did they become narcissistic in the first place? Because kids are not normally considered to be narcissists, right?

No, well, so this is the thing with kids, what you see is, you know, for I talked about this, is this basic narcissism with kids. Because you know, you kids are like, they're like, I'm the best and look at my art. But they don't know any different. No, It's how they're supposed to be right to the idea was in life

you kind of start off sort of narcissistic and you get older like why can't be the most important because my other brother has to be and my mom and my dog and then in class and you kind of get smaller as a person and then you but you get bigger because you have relationships. So, Freud talked about that. When, but when you kind of look at all of it, here's what you see, is that there does seem to be some childhood and parenting in narcissism, but it's not as much as anybody thinks, maybe 10, 20% of it. With grandiose narcissism, you see parents that put their kids on a pedestal, that were spoiled them a little bit,

a little more permissive parenting, with vulnerable narcissism, you see the more classic pathological parenting, the abusive parenting, the cold parenting, all that kind of stuff, the more trauma. And that's why I think you get people who are both, is you take somebody with the genetics of somebody who's going to be grandiose and you traumatize him a little bit. And that's we get the vulnerability, but that's another. So those seem to be the two pathways, but those aren't a huge part of it. Genetics plays a lot. Genetics plays more than 50% in about all personality, at least 50% for kids. Oh, yeah.

So like if your parents are narcissistic, the're a chance, the bigger chance that you're gonna become narcissistic. Yes. Yes. Interesting. Yes. So more than 50%. The, I mean, I don't like to say that the chance of narcissistic, of your parents, narcissistic, but when they figure out how much of narcissism can be predicted from your parents,

or from your, you know, your, your, your, your history, it's more than 50%. And this is true across personality trait. Most of how we are, we're kind of hardwired. So you have two kids, right? The different kids. Totally different. Totally.

And you never once go, you know, I could change you into you. You just couldn't, you don't think that, right? Like my daughters are totally different people. Right. And so as a parent, I don't get to pick who my daughters are. I already picked it because I married my wife and we spun the wheel and this is who we got. So I have no control over who my daughter is as a parent.

Oh, I have control is how I'm gonna relate to that. Am I gonna try to meet her on her terms and try to help her develop in the best way? Or I'm gonna say, I don't like the person you came at it. I really like you to be more like me, and I'm gonna change you into me. But so, if you're narcissistic, though, there's a good chance that one of them,

both of them will have a form of it. They will have sort of the traits that could turn into narcissists. For sure. And then you go, what happens? Well, what can happen is you have the parent who goes, you know, my narcissism isn't enough. Jennifer, because I'm not as attractive as I wanted, I wanted to be when I was 35. But my kid is pretty attractive. So I'm going to put all my psychological energy on to my kid's attractiveness in her modeling career. And I'm going to get all my ego needs met for my child success. So parents will do that subconsciously probably.

Yeah, they don't. Yeah, they don't. And so what happens, and this is, I wish we had more research on this and we just don't because it's so hard to find the data, but you just talk to people and they go, you know, I felt like I had a really strong relationship with my narcissistic parent. As long as I was making my parent feel good about himself or herself, you know, either one. But then when I got older and saw who my parent really was, they were kind of fake. And I realized my childhood was a bit of a lie. You know, as a bit of a, you know, I say it's like a western set.

You know, it's like a Potomkin village, however you say that. It's like it was a fake life. Like I thought it was great, I thought it was happy, I thought it was this, but it really wasn't. And I was kind of playing a show and then there's a lot of struggle that comes with that because you've tried questioning a relationship, questioning who you are. So, I mean, I think it can be a real challenge,

but I don't, you know, and I just say, going back to the original question, the other piece that we haven't talked about is the culture. And it's just random luck. So one of my kids can end up with one group of friends. He's really narcissistic, they're sort of showy, and she might go down that path, and my other kid might end up with other friends

who go a different way. It can also be cultural though. Growing up now with social media, where my nieces, I think my nieces food has more followers than I do. I wouldn't be surprised. No, she's very wonderful food and people like to follow her food on Instagram. And so I love this world. It's so insane.

I don't even know. But you go back to growing up in the 70s and 80s and like my parents couldn't even call me. Like I, I never phone. I never phone. I mean, it was just, it's such a different, when the idea of me being harsh to say, I'm like, how, what did I get on TV?

And remember your kids, like if you weren't TV, that was a big deal. Huge, huge. Now, it's like, well, there's a million TV channels. It doesn't mean anything. I know. Exactly. So the culture makes a big difference too. And certain cultures that are more individualistic, that are more low trust, the more urban, smaller families, all those things seem to pull for narcissism and cultures that are more collective, more communal, higher in trust, seem to not pull for narcissism. More from our guests, but first a few words from our sponsor.

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What's going to be like in the next 20 years, right? I know you don't have a crystal ball, but things are all going towards more. There's such strife in the world anyway right now. And it's just becoming going to be mayhem if everyone is such an ego. Like the truth of the matter is before even add to the question, you know, being an entrepreneur even in today's culture is like considered to be super sexy and the hot career. Nobody wants to work for anybody else anymore. They all wanna be their own boss and they all wanna be their own entrepreneur.

So people are just kind of following into this individualistic very much about one for one, not for one for all. One for one, not one for all one for one not one for all Yeah, you know, yeah, yeah, is it a pendulum? Good is like in history does a pendulum swing back or well, I I Don't know I think it does because a lot of what we're doing feels like we're redoing the 70s So I do feel there's historical curves

Well started more you said in the book. Well, no, what you said in the book, it's all sort to get really kind of out of hand in the 60s. Was it the 60s? Yeah. 60s. So a lot of this feels like it really like in the 60s, people started noticing, oh my God, people are self-centered and maybe this narcissism is rising. And this is like 60s, 70s. And I mean, history, 70s people got very into themselves. We had huge divorce, 60s, 70s. People stopped caring about their kids in 1980, 81, 82, was at the low point for child self-esteem in America

because people were like, zero population growth. We got to find ourselves, forget about our kids. So the early 80s was about the low point for kids self-esteem. And then we had the self-esteem movement in California that was in the 80s. I'm going ancient history here. So, Guy named Vasconcelus, who was a state legislator, legislator. He was in therapy, I think, and I could be messing the story up a little bit. Humanistic therapy, and he thought self-esteem would be great for kids, because if all the

kids had self-esteem, they wouldn't do drugs, they wouldn't have kids out of marriage, they'd be doing, you know, they go to school, they go to greats. So they started the California Task Force on self-esteem and social responsibility. That was Republicans added social responsibility. They did this huge book in the 80s, and they found self-esteem didn social responsibility. That was Republicans added social responsibility. They did this huge book in the 80s and they found self-steamed and really do much. Just didn't really seem to make that big of difference. So the educator said perfect, let's put self-esteem in the schools and that will solve all the problems. So they started adding self-esteem to everything. And this is now 90s, late 80s, 90s where the kids are like, I am special,

exercise is in class. We did this on purpose. So we boosted all the kids self esteem through the roof from the 80s to 90s, 2000s. And what we didn't do was make the world any better. So we made them all think they're going to be legends, but then we made the economy worse and worse and worse. So they have all these kids that were raised to think they're going to be a big deal and then they had very little opportunity, very competitive opportunity. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. What do you think about the fact then when you're young, right? And the whole thing, like everybody's a winner, right? Like there's no such thing as, you know, like when they're playing soccer

and these little soccer, they're like, nobody gets a winning thing or a losing, everyone gets the participation. Is that good or bad for narcissists? I mean, you know, when we, Jean Twang and I wrote a lot about this in the narcissism epidemic, and I thought about this a lot with my kids

and soccer and stuff. And I think, I think competition having winners and losers is probably good. And I think most kids, I'm very confident, I'm very confident I'm not the best in everything. And I think most of us figure that out pretty young and we're pretty happy about that. And also like teach the kid in life, there are people who are going to win and you're not going to win every time. And there are winners and losers gonna win, and you're not gonna win every time, and there are winners and losers. I have a big problem with this,

but you can imagine. You can tell, I can just say. I think it's so ridiculous at this point, where these kids are like seven, eight, and it's like, no, I'm like, well, I walk in late, who is the score? Score or no one's keeping score? The way they all support point in life, life is competitive.

I know, and competition is fun. I mean, that's it. Then you're playing for a purpose. Not just like, you know, like maybe I thought maybe I'm just because I'm that way. Maybe I'm just not, maybe I'm narcissistic where I feel like it's my way, the highway. I just think it's so silly. But like when I go for a walk, you know, there are people who think I can just go lolly-gag and go for a walk I like to walk for a purpose am I going to the grocery store?

Where am I walking? There has to be a purpose behind things not just to just do something is that I do completely But no, but that's your very achievement oriented when you say that I mean that's for you sort of saying like I'm like Good, that's achievement you, you sort of saying like, I'm like, that's a achievement oriented, you're getting stuff done. That is nothing to do with narcissism. No, no, I mean, it's different, does it different? Okay, good, that's a different, you kind of have to,

you know, it's just, I mean, I think, I mean, you're bringing up so much and I think about this a lot, you know, being a professor and having kids that are, you know, college and seeing, they're seeing it from both sides. And there's so much competition. There's so, but I don't even know what people are competing over anymore. Because like you said, everyone's like being non-to-beenower.

Well, who are you competing with? You want to be an entrepreneur? You want a network of people who are supporters. You don't want to compete with people. Well, no, the idea is because I feel like people don't, they don't want to have a boss anymore. It's a new culture of like this individualistic. It's very individualistic. And it's so it's it's it's it very it's also very

U.S. it's very oriented here. Yes. Like I just had a podcast with this guy who was all about longevity did the book the Blue Zones right and about like what makes people live healthy happy lives and Dan butineruver's name, and all these in the five blue zone areas, and it's all about community, it's about having friends, it's about working for something more like... Bigger than yourself.

Bigger than yourself. And these are the people who are the happiest, live the longest, do the, you know what I mean? And yet we're like losing a major facet in the world because nobody wants to do that anymore. No, but it wasn't like people got to... So if you... I'm thinking about the date of out of China.

So China is very communal, very kind of confusion society starts to urbanize in the last 20 years. It becomes narcissistic because they shove everybody in an urban environment. You say you get one kid, you can have two kids, and everyone compete. And narcissism starts going up, and the people change. She set up a very competitive individualistic world, and people are gonna have to be narcissistic, because they're gonna have to win,

because if you don't win, what do you get? Well, that's the thing, and that's what's breeding in our country, though, that's what's happening. So the people who are, I hate to say it, have that narcissism are the ones who are gonna win, right? Because the psychopaths are gonna, they can, or the macchibellians, or all the different cousins and everyone else.

And they don't stop. So the other thing you'll notice with very high wealth is that sometimes you'll see higher narcissism. You also, by the way, wealth, you see conscientiousness. I think there's nobody who's kind of lazy, getting really rich. So these people, you gotta work. I mean, I don't like getting it you see conscientiousists. I think there's nobody who's kind of lazy getting really rich. So these people, you got to work. I mean, I don't like getting... Conscientious, I think that's very true. Yeah, I mean, discipline and stuff. So I don't mean like, oh, you're just kind of being

an ego maniac and people are paying you. I mean, these people, you work hard for a long period of time to make money. But you see people are wealthy or more narcissistic. Part of is because if you're, if you've got a great family and you, you make enough money, you're like, shit, I got enough money now, I can't spend all this, I'm taking my kids to Europe. Let's go have some fun, you know? Right, right. But if you don't have that and it's all about ego,

it never stops. Right. So there's no natural place in there where you go like, yeah, I got enough. You know, I got enough, I got famous enough, I got enough money. Like when does that kick in? Will you tell me?

Well, I don't know. I mean, if you need it. So usually the buffer is the social relationships. You go, well, I want to keep my marriage. Right. The social relationship part is like, so it's essential, I feel. You're saying it's a guard rail.

It's a guard rail. Yeah. But it's like a double-edged sword. How do you have a truly good relationship if you are a narcissistic person? But at the same time, if you are a narcissistic, it helps balance out the bad narcissism. Right, and it benefits you.

If you're narcissistic to be in a loving relationship, it tempers your narcissism. It tempers your narcissism. It tempers your narcissism at the cost to the other person often. Can you narcissist speed together? Yeah, and that's what we,'s what, you know, when we were doing like dating research, that's what you tend to find was the best. Like, if you have two people,

they're kind of narcissistic, they're kind of shallow, but they're not gonna hurt each other that badly. Right, because they're both into their own thing. They're both in their own thing. I asked you, cheated on me. Why? Well, I cheated on her first.

Well, do you think it, well, fuck it. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's fine. Like, they're like, whatever. I cheated on her first. Well, do you think it, well, fuck it. You know what I mean? So it's like, it's fine. Like, they're like, whatever. But the problem is you have somebody who's narcissistic with somebody who's really looking for committed,

loving relationship. Right, right, right. And they go, this person has everything I want. I just wish they were more loving. Because they're so successful and they seem competent. So you're saying two narcissists are the best, that's the best combination. Well, I mean, it doesn't work because you can be easy.

Yes, but I mean it's better. Because they're not attracted to that person because then they can be a reflection of what you're doing badly. So then it becomes really challenging with the dynamics. Because if I'm married to somebody who is a psychologist who studies narcissism, and we both think we're the best in the world, It's not going to be good.

But if my wife can be an expert in something else, that I don't feel as a direct threat to me. So what you have to do, I mean, this is called self-evaluation, mate, but you kind of divvy out your success. So you go look at my wife. She's the greatest pro skateboarder in the world. And that awesome. What are you?

I don't skateboard, man. I'll be too hard, but she's the best. And I married her. Right. And like, aren't that that feed your narcissistic? Dude, my wife's world taught a skateboarder. Of course it feeds my narcissism because that's my wife. Right. So you get you get like your your is pride in that. Yeah. So wife is like a Rolex. So like a car. So then like does, but do all narcissists like do the why is it that not all narcissists do that They they a lot of times they date in their eyes Maybe below them because then they can shine right because the problem is when you're worried about your ego

You always have the choice. It's like why can't I have this partner who is my level? But that's not gonna make me look as good if I'm directly comparing to her And let's just a, a different, completely different person. Completely different person. So maybe the safe thing to me to do, and especially because I'm kind of a loser anyway, is I get this kind of dependent, you know, wife who's been traumatized and I give her some options

and I don't, and I make sure to gas slide like the OJ thing in my back to my LA stories. Right, right, your LA stories. We used to see OJ and like we'd run through as you are and we were kids like and we're, where'd he lift near my aunt? Like, yeah, that, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we'd jump over and run across.

You did all that stuff. I mean, this is when I was like, a baby. He was such a big deal at SC, you know? Oh, I know. He was huge. Huge. Would he be a, he's an artist, is it? Oh my God, yeah. I mean, off's C, you know, it's huge. Huge. Was he being, he's an arseist. Oh my God, yeah.

I mean, off the charts, grandiose. Is he, and is he, is he the disordered kind or is he just? I mean, if he did it, I would suggest being imprisoned and murdering your wife is probably, if he did it. But that would be the psychopath. It wouldn't be an art, like, well, what I'm saying is, when it's that extreme, you'd probably say

it's a disorder, whatever it is. Right, but we wouldn't have known that. You know, you have to think, no one ever knows that there was a psychopath until it actually happens. No, you thought, oh, Jay, it was the greatest guy ever. Yeah, and he did those hurts ads, where you've kind of made fun of himself.

And you're like, look, he can even take a joke. He's not a narcissist. He's a pretty likable, successful guy. So just because someone's self-deprecating doesn't necessarily mean that they're not a narcissist. No, they might have a good publicist, or they might be... Or no, a general, maybe they're smart enough

to know how to... Right, they know this to, yeah. Sorry, cut you off. So, and I think I thought there were, but since it's impression formation, they're very good in impression management In the Yeah, that's the radio's one. Yeah, it's so it's if you're if they're really smart about

Impression management So if you're if you're narcissistic and you have a lot of self-control and you can kind of regulate it better But then over time you're not gonna be as narcissistic because you're gonna spend all this time going I got to be humble a little bit just so the surf like me, you know, I got the conditioning. Yeah, so you can actually can, so can, so can, can a narcissist get better? I think so. So what we found in personality, this is sort of the big history is you go back to Freud and Freud's like, yeah, this stuff pretty much done by the time you're six. And then you maybe go to therapy and try to change it. And like, well, that's not so good.

or six, and then you may go to therapy and try to change it. And like, well, that's not so good. And then William Jamesville later was like, nah, really, you got to 18, 20, you know, you can, then it gets sort of set in place. But before then, you can move around. Now what we know, and this is, I think, a really, I'm really benefit, benefit of the personality science is we know people can change the personalities. And we know they're different. Is that true? Yes, yes, 100%. And we know people can change their personalities. And we know they're different. Is that true?

Yes, yes, 100%. And we know. Because we always say people can change. Right. People can change. They're poor. People can change. And we know that people want to change.

So when I ask my class, and I always ask on those big five trades, you know, I want to be more open, who wants to be less open. What generally people want is they want to be more extroverted and less neurotic, more agreeable. But primarily they want to be less neurotic, meaning be happier and be more extroverted. Those are the two big ones people want. And so people do want to change.

And when people want to change, they can change. It just takes effort. The problem you have is when you go, can you make somebody else change? And the answer is, no, you can't make somebody else change. You can't make yourself change very well. So if somebody, if you sit in me like, Keith, who do you want to be? I just wish I were a better parent. I wish I were a little more loving with my kids. I wish I could just have a little bit longer fuse, you know. Like I do. I've been working on that my whole life.

It's not a home, I haven't got there yet. You haven't even knew all your experiences. All my experience, I try to be a great dad. Not there yet. No, am I getting better? Are you getting better? Yes. Of course I'm getting better, you know, I'm improving.

So is it all about an improvement, not necessarily? I mean, it's just your core, are you different? I think I'm different. I think I've really worked at it over time to be, I mean, I was very, like we're talking, I was very chemen-oriented and very competitive and I've dialed that back a lot. But did you only dial a back because, you know,

with age and like kind of like reflection later on? Yeah, I think some of it was, well, I mean, they're getting personal, but I think some of it was, well, I mean, getting personal, but I think some of it I just burned out too. I just got to, I was just doing too much. And it just, I got to the point where like my nerves, I just couldn't, you know, If I do it anymore.

I just couldn't do it anymore. So does someone need to have some kind of life situation where that forces them to change, or because if these are going great, right? You don't have any real reason to change, right? No, that's the problem. So the reason is it's like, if you tell somebody to change,

they're like, no, I'm feeling pretty good. So somebody's narcissistic and like, I'm pretty successful. And life's like, you should change, to be a better parent. Like, my life's kind of killing it. Right. So I'm not really good. Even though your life could be shitty in the personal side.

Right, but you're like, yeah, I wish my personal life was better, but that's not my priority right now. And I'm pretty good and I don't want to give up this other side to get the personal life better. I don't want to give up my ego to make my personal life. So it's hard to make people change, really can't make people change. People though will change.

What you're talking about is kind of the rock bottom thing we talk about or you're in a marriage, you're like, look, I'm leaving you and let you. So there's often that kind of, you know, ultimatum that will seek people to change. But even I don't, doesn't ultimatum work? I don't think it would because it's like out of fear, you'll do it because you don't in the moment, but then won't you revert right back to how you were? Well, I guess it depends on how much the fear is. So you tell me, what are the strategies for narcissistic person to change? And honestly, strategies for anyone who's a neurotic, a change or a whatever they're.

for anyone who's a neurotic degenerate, whatever they're insuant. So with what we change mostly personality-wise is neuroticism because that's what most mental health is. I'm kind of neurotic and they might say, hey, it's manifesting as depression or anxiety or hostility, but it's all kind of trait neuroticism. We want to bring that down. What can we do?

Well, we can give you SSRIs. That will change your personality. That's drugs. That's drugs. Right. We can give you Ayahuasca. And that could possibly, I mean, on average, that lowers neuroticism about as much as SSRIs, but you only have to, you know, And it lasts forever. The longest follow-ups we ever, three months, maybe six months. And then it kind of go back. I think it usually will cycle back, but I don't, I think it depends on who it is and what the, and we just don't have great long term data.

I mean, we just don't have fall. Right. You don't have any of that for years. So that works. All sorts of therapy work, but when you look at therapy or like Jesus, all sort of works, if you have, if you like your therapist and stay with it. Right. And if you go consistently, if you go consistently and do the work, although honestly, a lot of people I know go to their therapist and they just talk to them

for five, 10 years enough. And it's just like, they become like, they're like, buddy, you know, buddy. Yeah, but the bounce idea is off of it. They're not changing. I mean, I've seen people who got gone and have had great results as well. But yeah then I guess these are all things that I, you know, Mr. Rajip, give me some strategies that I have in her. So if I'm, if I'm narcissistic, what I want to do is figure out what the issue is, is that my ego's just too big. I talk about myself all the time. And maybe I want to figure out what those are and really work on that specific behavior.

So I might be like, for me, I'm very extroverted. I will go to conferences and when I talk about it, somebody will say, I'll say like for me, I'm very extroverted. I will go to conferences and when I talk about it, somebody will say, I'll say, hey Jennifer, what are you working on? You're like, I'm working on this and I go, oh, what about this? What about this? Next thing, you know, I'm talking for 10 minutes. And poor Jennifer, who's not as extroverted as me, is just not saying a word because my my energy is too much. So that's not narcissism per se, but that's my extroversion, messing up relationships. I go, okay, I gotta watch that.

So what do I do? Where I go, every time I talk to somebody, I breathe and let them have a moment. But then you have to be super self-aware. Yeah, so I have to make it a committed, behavioral intervention, like I have to watch my, and if I were serious about this for real, I would have a diary and I'd be a journal

and I'd have no, it's like be a journal and I'd have notes. It's like, oh, so I'll do it. I, one of my issues is when I mean, I was going through TSA a couple of days ago and a lovely snow globe for my mother that my, my thought she would like. What's TSA to preach security at the airport security? Oh, TSA security.

Yeah, so I'm going to the airport. I get through the huge line, I get there, they open up the snow globe and say, you can't bring the snow globe on the planet, you insane, it could be a bomb. Well, of course, it could have been a bomb. I didn't think about that this morning. So I thought, well, I could get really mad

and act like a baby or I could smile, say Merry Christmas and walk back Chris the line. And I'm like, I did that. I smiled and said Merry Christmas and walked the line and just didn't get arrested. That took a lot of work. You know what I mean? I didn't get arrested.

I didn't get arrested. And my mother got the snow globe and it was a great Christmas. I've been working on that for years. How did you get to, yeah, so what, so you basically just over time and I started going to meditations like when I drive, it's like, God wants me to be slow. It's like this something I got from yoga. So I just said meditation. It's like a little mantra. I tell myself, these are just basic, behavioral interventions that you do just for a very specific thing.

So for me, it's more and things that go my way I get pissed. So I got to stop that. It's entitlement, snarsicism. I for me, it's more when things go my way I get pissed. So I gotta stop that. It's entitlement, it's narcissism, I don't like it. It could be antagonism, could be just a mean person. You could say, you know what, I'm gonna try to say positive things about people. So one of the things that's really, you might notice this in LA, I don't know,

but it's very hard when you go like, hey, I had this great success. People don't go, hey, great, Keith, great success. They're all like, you know, and so a lot of times people's first reaction is like, damn your success. It's hard to make, it's hard to sell. Isn't that called shopping for you? It is.

So it's sort of taking joy in Keith's suffering would be sort of shun for you. You know, the classic German negative stuff. And telling Keith, he's great when he succeeds would be sort of shun for it. You know, the classic German negative stuff. And may and telling Keith he's great when he succeeds is what we did in psychology called capitalization. That's kind of a silly word, but that's the technical term. Like, hey, great job, you know. So one of those things you can practice is being sort of positive about other people's success. And if that's really hard for you,

just practice it. Yeah. So somebody goes, hey, I got this great thing. You go great. I'm really happy for you. But what you're saying is that you got it, first of all, what am I when I'm hearing is you know, you've got to first have the ability to be self aware. You got to figure out what the issue is. What it is, what the issue is. Then you got to just practice it over and over again. Yeah. Until you get better at it. Yes. Okay. So there's no, there. Yes. There's no magic trick then. No, I mean, when you find extreme personality change, we call it quantum change or something. Yeah. And then at the times you see that, sometimes in war, where you get PTSD, so people have

these war traumas and they'll come out of there. So, you know, and there'll be different person when they come back from war. So that's like a classic example. The opposite side of that would be something like Iowaska or the psychedelics where you have mystical experience and having a mystical experience, people can come out of that,

be more loving, more connected. We're not really seeing narcissism change with psychedelics, you know, that neuroticism pieces. But it's grandiose, sometimes it's taking people who are a little insecure and they come out of the go, like, you know, I could do more with my life. What is it called when someone, like, you know, when you have something to prove, right?

Like there are people, you're saying, you're saying before how, you know, when you grow up with like a lot of rich and tell people around you and then like what happens a lot of times is people can then, you know, kind of grow up with a chip on their shoulder, right? Where they feel like, well, I'm gonna show them. And then they push super hard.

And then, is that like a form of narcissism though? What is that called? It's not? No, I mean, you're right, like not everything is narcissism. No, no. And everyone just uses that word. Right, they're using the term, I mean, narcissism is a constellation of, you know, trades

or personally processes that make you seek ego and seek attention and try to be better than people and it's way of regulating yourself to the star you're on show. But if you're like a kid and that you're, you know, I went to prep school and I was like, I was going to school with the Kennedy kids and so people like, you're a big deal. I went to prep school and I was like, I went to school with the Kennedy kids. And so people like, are you're a big deal?

I'm like, no, I'm not. Right, come here and get some precision. And then you get to this point of view, there's always somebody richer and smarter and better looking than you. And I forget that out very young. And I think a lot of people figure that when they're older. So I think I was blessed in a way that I never,

yeah, yeah, yeah. But what you're talking about is, I mean, this is kind of like elder in psychology. But the idea that you, you kind of get knocked down, you're like, I got to prove who I am. Because my, I had a sense of who I was. I went in this location. I said, Keith, you're not that. You're weak.

And I said, no, I'm not. I'm going to prove to everybody who I am. So that's a way of, I mean, we call it self-regulation. Meaning, I have an idea of who myself is. The world has told me that, I mean, we call it self-regulation. Meaning, I have an idea of who myself is. The world has told me that that isn't, you know, no one sees me that way. And I have two choices. Either I can say, you're right, I'm a loser like the world sees me, or I can say, no, I'm going to prove to you that I am who I say I am. And I have to build a person and compete and rise up to gain that status. That's totally normal.

In writing, you went to a new school, you got to establish who you are. I mean, so this is sort of a normal thing of establishing identity. So I think that's... Well, you said something that you said, self-regulation or self-regulate. Isn't that more of a mental health issue when someone can't self-regulate? It... So the term self-regulation is a general term for becoming the person you want to be

and staying the person you want to be. So if I have an image of myself and I want to keep that image, I do certain things. It's normal thing to do. Because if I, you know, we all think, we live in a stable society, with stable, pretty stable society, with pretty stable relationships,

and we have an idea of who we are. I'm confident who I am because every day I get the messages. Well, if we move to somewhere in another country, we move to North Australia or Bob one New Guinea or I don't know where we're going, maybe we go to Japan or whatever. And we start living there, we don't know anybody and no one's given us feedback.

We pretty quickly know we don't know who we are. Right. Because where's the feedback? Who's telling everyone's like, who are you guys? Like, I don't know who I am. So we have to self-regulate. We have to establish who we are. Got it.

So there's a real social part of doing that. Right. And it's who your friends are. It's what you do. It's the symbols. It's how you dress. We dress a certain way. So people treat us a certain way.

If I had showed up here in a three-piece suit, you would have thought it different. You would have thought it's how you dress. We dress a certain way so people treat us a certain way. If I had showed up here in a three-piece suit You would have thought a different you would have thought of it's a different person. Yeah, uh-huh So we do a lot in our life to create an image and we also want everyone to know the image so we don't have to Negotiate all the time. We want people to get who we are. So they don't treat us differently. I'm pretty informal So I always look informal. Yeah, me too differently. I'm pretty informal, so I always look informal. Yeah, me too. So, I mean, so you do that for a reason, right? It's self-regulation. So what sometimes people use is a more specific term, which is self-control, which is like, I can stop myself from doing

things I shouldn't do or do things I know I should do. And that self-control is really important for mental health. So a lot of our issues are drinking, drug addiction, eating, exercise, sex addiction, any of those things are self-regulation or self-control issues. So that's why it's so important for mental health. Because if you can't control yourself, you can't function. Right. What is this whole approach versus avoidance? Okay, yeah.

So if fundamentally is humans, but this is across mammals and it's across other species as well, they're kingdoms. I mean, this is a very foundational way of motivating. Is there's two motivational sets, sort of like gas and brakes, that we have approach orientation, which is I want goals.

It has to do with getting goals. It's a quizative. It has to do with feeling good. It's like the extroversion. It has to do with reward seeking. And there's avoidance orientation, which is avoidant punishment. It has to do with finding peace and avoidant turbulence. It has to do with risk avoidance rather than risk taking. And so, approach and avoidance

are two very basic ways, and we all have approach and we all have avoidance, but people that are more approach oriented tend to look for rewards. They tend to be energized by rewards, and they tend to go through life one way. And people that are more avoidance oriented are kind of looking at risks and they're trying to keep safe and they're going through life another way. Right. So that basic motivation when you move it into the self, so I'm kind of getting yoga here. I'm taking that these are social psychmodels and yoga. So you take that basic motivation, you move it into the self, the ego, what happens? Well, approach oriented about getting attention, being better, fame, status, success, it's equivititive, getting dates, you know, new dating

partners. And avoidance orientation is avoiding failure, avoiding shame, avoiding guilt, avoiding getting in trouble. Right. So it's different. These are different motives when they get to the ego too. Okay. With narcissism, grandiose, did you see a lot of approach orientation? Which is, hey, this is my chance to shine. I'm an LA. Hey, I got to go. I can go meet, you know, I don't know. I can't remember the names. And an avoidance orientation is more, I don't want to get busted. And you're not, you're going to see that with more vulnerable narcissism. The vulnerable narcissism is more about don't find out, don't wanna get busted. And you're gonna see that with more vulnerable narcissism. The vulnerable narcissism is more about don't find out,

don't find out I'm a loser, don't find out I'm weak. And the grandiose is all about me. Check out, oh awesome. And the other one is all about approach. When you download the Kruger app, you have easy access to savings every day. Shop weekly sales and get personalized coupons to get the most value out of every trip every time,

whether you shop in-store or online. Download the Kroger app now to save big. Kroger, fresh for everyone, must have a digital account to redeem offers. Restrictions may apply, see site for details. Save big on your favorites with the Buy 5 or more Save a Dollar each sale. Simply buy 5 or more participating items and save a dollar each with your card. Kroger, fresh for everyone. So then I'm going to ask you one more question and then we can wrap this, but like what careers

would you say are careers you would find like the in the in the vulnerable and the grandiose? So with grandiose narcissism, you find it linked to things like leadership, especially, so grandiose narcissists rise to leadership, emerges leaders in a lot of situations. Entrepreneurship, we were talking about earlier, you see more entrepreneurship with grandiose narcissism. Again, it makes perfect sense. I got to take risks, I think I can do it. And I've got to convince people to support me. So those are areas that pull from renarsisism and vulnerability doesn't really do well anywhere.

There's no place on earth like, you know what, I really need is somebody who self-centered and insecure, right? But you could have that in the grandiose also just because someone is... Yes, you can have that wrapped up and they kind of Yeah, I feel like you know when you're talking. I feel like Most narcissists I know like real narcissists are super insecure And they're just like you know, they puff their chest out and they could be super you know Extroverted but still be like really insecure in the inside.

They can be both. Yeah. And that's where they get into trouble because they're doing all that reassurance seeking and they're making sure people are supporting them. Validation. Validation, that's a good word. Yeah. Yeah.

So here's the question I'd ask you. Do you really think these people, and I'm thinking LA people are insecure. So if I'm a successful person, but they're out there doing stuff that takes a lot of security. So I think that people, I mean, I'm not the world-renowned psychologist, but I will say this.

I just make and stuff up. Okay, well, I'm doing it all by observation. I will say though, I think I'm okay at it, but I think that a lot of times people who are really insecure try to overcompensate by showing a really, a really like, bravado of like, of confidence and, you know, extraversion, but really deep down, they are insecure and they feel really depleted and they need constant outward validation and external. Like,

a lot of people who need to go out all the time and seek validation. Yeah, they have all those qualities you're saying. They are super gregarious and extroverted and fun. But they're also like deeply broken inside a lot of times. So that is, I mean, that's something we see in in research and we talk about this a little bit like the mask model of Narcissism. This is the old term. It was old. I just got a 2-Tie pop model. It's a little Freudian model But the idea is that there's this insecurity and then there's this shell of confidence on top of it and the way you get narcissism you take insecurity and add confidence and of it and the way you get narcissism, you take insecurity and add confidence. And when we look at people and you say, hey, are you wearing a mask and people will say

some people like, yeah, I'm fake until I make it. I'm insecure, but I gotta look confident. Other people like, nope, not at all. So the people are, there's two kinds of people not wearing a mask. There's people who are just really insecure. Like, no, I'm just insecure. Through and through, man. Yeah.

I'm insecure. And the people like, no, I'm just insecure through and through, man. I'm insecure. And the people are like, no, I'm secure. I'm just not that insecure. Really? Yeah, my child is okay. I'm wired okay. I don't feel bad about stuff. Right, but there's the other group.

Right, but then there's the other groups. And then you get those people that are both very kind of grandiose, but they're also insecure. And that's why I think you're getting grandiosity and vulnerability. So that is a real phenomenon, but that're also insecure. And that's why I think you're getting grandiosity and vulnerability. So that is a real phenomenon, but that isn't the base case. I think that is, well, maybe because I live here. That's why I really care for this list.

And I think I see a combo. I think people here are also like, you get a melting pot of people here who didn't feel worthy or belong and they come to Los Angeles, they come to New York and try to reinvent themselves because they have a... Like, they feel like broken somewhere. I don't think that that's uncommon.

I think that's very common. No. And again, I think that's a very real phenomenon because you've seen it, I've seen it. But I don't think that's the base case. Meaning if somebody says like, hey, you're narcissistic, it doesn't mean you're a broken person

who was out there trying to get attention. Even though, yeah, even though when I talk to people in LA, I'm like, yeah, you should see this. I mean, the people that are out there trying to get attention because they feel that will heal something missing. And I talked to people in LA, like, yeah, you should see. I mean, people they're out there trying to get attention because they feel that will heal something missing. And I talked to, you know, Jim guys, and they're like, yeah, a lot of these guys live because they're really insecure.

And that was their way of, you know, if they can tell they make it. Or feeling confident. And they feel confident. And then after they do it for a while, the insecurity kind of starts to go away. And you know, they fake it till they make it. So that model is a very real model.

Maybe I'm just gonna, you know, I'm in LA and I'm around New York rim. These big metropolitan, like maybe like we were saying earlier, like it's just like such an influx of those that type of person. Yeah, it's a big selection effect. Of all here, right? Exactly. And it's people in selection effect of all here, right exactly

And it's people in narcissistic, but they also felt like they weren't getting what they needed at home and needed to go somewhere else to get that validation, right Which I think it's like and I think so but I'm sorry There's a old story is Dr. Drew you know from love Minds, gave the narcissistic personality inventory, which is like our classic old school measure of grandiose narcissism. He gave it to 150 thereabouts of the paper in a few years, celebrities on the show. And he would just give them the test and he did it really randomly so you could never go back and figure out who these celebrities, which is great. I mean, It's so hard to get these data.

Yeah. And when you look at it, you found that there was a lot of grandiosity in celebrities. It was higher. It was interesting. It was highest. It was like women in reality television. You know, and it was a lot of that was vanity piece. But it was, so you did find it.

Comedians had to kind of high narcissism scores with the highest of reality television. So it was the less talent, more narcissism. Yes. And, but we don't have vulnerability scores, but when you look at Dr. Drew's book, he texts about vulnerability all the time. So my guess is in this population, there's a lot of vulnerability, a lot of addiction, a lot of substance use disorder, so it's kind of things. I just don't of data on it.

I don't know how to get it. Well, I think also what you said, like I'm, because we're living, but you said something else I found interesting about what you just said. Now I just told it last night. Okay. It happens all the time. What was I going to say? Well, I mean, I can't remember what I was going to say now, but it doesn't matter.

I mean, I think I basically answered all of my questions. They would, oh, actually one other question, give some basic strategies for people who have to deal with a narcissistic boss or a narcissistic partner. What, give me some easy. That's a challenge. Easy peasy strategy.

Easy peasy, I mean, I don't think there is easy peasy, but general narcissistic boss or narcissistic spouse either one you a lot who we talk about Gaslight in earlier you need to get a group of people who support your view of reality So when you say this is reality in the boss because no, that's not real your wife or husband say that's not real You have a friend's ago. No, you're real. They're lying So you protect yourself you you get a network. The thing with bosses is there's a couple options. One is you hide, one is you get them promoted out.

So if they're real problem, you say you are so great, you should be working at headquarters. Third option is you just do everything for them and kind of ride their coat tails as long as you can, that kind of remora with the shark model. Right. And again, whatever your life circumstances are, you kind of suck up to the person who ingratiate yourself to the boss so they want to have you around. When you look at narcissistic leaders,

they always have a little groups of- People, they come around, not around. It's a little quail, so you can be a little quail and follow them around. So that's an option. With relationships, you know, get legal help. Just get an attorney, get a coach, do whatever you can to protect yourself.

Like I said, you need a support system, especially if you're going to try to work with the marriage. Another strategy that people have told me about when they're leaving marriages that are falling apart, they call it the gray rock strategy, which is being really boring. And I've heard this from friends who I respect. So, I mean, there's no research on this, but the idea is this partner is like, hey, we're in the marriage, I still want to have Keith in my life, and I want to mess with him. So you just act really boring, like a gray rock. Just like, yeah, yes,

one word to answer is everything's really written down, and you'd hope the person leaves you alone, because they find something more shiny to bother. The gray rock syndrome. Yeah, it's like a method they talk about. Be as boring as a gray rock. Because there's nothing you can't instigate. You know, yeah, because what happens is the guy, oh, we're gonna do this and you're like,

ah, and then you're back in the dynamic. You know, like, I love this marriage and I'm reliving the marriage. I'm a girlfriend boyfriend. Yeah, exactly, it doesn't matter. And so you're reliving the dynamic. I don't want to be in this dynamic. So I can't be the same person I was in the dynamic.

Right. So I have to be a different person. And then why are more men narcissists than women? I think it's basic personality structure with men tend to be more externalizing, which is, we talk about breaking, like approaching avoidance, we also talk about externalizing and internalizing, which are some people with disorders

tend to be more aggressive. They hit things more, they tend to be more alcoholic, and some people do be more depressed, internalizing self-harm. In general, and there's just a very general, this isn't like everybody, just a general, on average, men tend to have more externalizing disorders. So if you look at prisons, men's prisons are much bigger than women's prisons. And prisons are filled with narcissists and psychopaths. So I think that there's just a general gender difference in externalization,

and that's part of it, but there also could be some cultural things like men are allowed, you know, you get more props for being kind of arrogant. If you're a woman, you're more arrogant. It's hard. You got to be more subtle about it. Right. You've called demanding if you're a woman or... Yeah. But I do think probably now with social media and this whole individualized world, I bet those numbers are going to become much more balanced. I, 100% agree with you. With vulnerable narcissism, you see the balance already. We're equal.

It's a grandiose where there's more. I think it's probably changing. And probably, you see the flip with things like borderline personality disorder, histrionism, which tend to be diagnosed more in women. And my guess is that gets balanced out too. Because one idea is that if therapists, as a psychiatrist, we'll see a woman come in

with these traits to go, yeah, you're kind of borderline, but this is a man, it's a kind of narcissistic. Right. And the woman, they'll focus more on the emotional destabilization and the men, it will be more like the power kind of dynamic. But it's this very same or similar disorder. Right.

So there's always a cultural piece that comes in, you know, always, always. Well Keith, this has been very informative. I thoroughly enjoyed this podcast with you. It's been very fun for me too. Um, so glad that you came. The book is called The New Science of Narcissism and you can get it anywhere to imagine, right? Yeah. Amazon. Amazon. That's wherever you're local. You're local books.

I was going to your bookstore. There's none in LA, but we still have one in Georgia. Please go. Really? Wow. I mean, we have, you know, a bookstore we have? Amazon books. You do, right? Probably like an actual store. I'm joking. We're about joking. We have the Amazon books store down the street. You can you can buy it Amazon, but I mean or barrens and noble. I think they mean we don't have one but online. Go the entrepreneurs out there. They need it, man. Help the small business owners. So they're getting crushed. And I would say follow Keith on social media, but he's not on social media, but he is on Twitter. Twitter. Okay. So you have Twitter. Yeah. Not a lot of hot takes coming from. No. Oh, well. Well, that's called. Okay. Okay, so you have Twitter. Yeah. Not a lot of hot takes coming from that. No, oh well. Well, that's okay. So Keith Campbell, the new

Scientist narcissism. This has been super informative. Thank you enjoyed this episode. I'm Heather Monahan, host of Creating Confidence, a part of the YAP media network, the number one business and self-improvement podcast network. Okay, so I want to tell you a little bit about my show. We are all about elevating your confidence to its highest level ever and taking your business right there with you. Don't believe me? I'm going to go ahead and share some of the reviews of the show so you can believe my listeners. I have been a long time fan of Heather's no matter what phase of life I find myself in. Heather seems to always have the perfect gems of wisdom that not only inspire but motivate me into action. Her experience and personality are unmatched and I love her go-getter attitude.

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