Habits and Hustle - Episode 193: Rich Roll - Vegan Ultra-Endurance Athlete, Author, and Public Speaker

Episode Date: November 8, 2022

Pre-order Jen’s New Book: Bigger, Better, Bolder today: https://amzn.to/3hvtqYp Rich Roll is a Vegan Ultra-Endurance Athlete, Author, and Public Speaker. Taking a break from his own podcast to appear on this one, Rich delivers an open and powerful look at his incredible athleticism, determination, and struggles with sobriety. After hosting hundreds of podcasts, watching him sink into the other side so smoothly and graciously is a truly wonderful experience. Nothing seems off-limits. From his drinking in college that led to his addiction issues, his failed first marriage, and his triumph as the World's Strongest Man in his Ultra-Endurance Training in his 40s, Rich has lived a life worth sharing. And he does. Struggling with your own challenges no matter how deep and helpless they may feel? Curious about the mentality of a person who would race hundreds of miles past the age of 40? Give this one a listen. Youtube Link to This Episode Rich Roll's Website - https://www.richroll.com/ Rich Roll's Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/richroll/ ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts.  📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal.  ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website - http://habitshustle.com 📚Habit Nest Website - http://habitshustle.com 📱Follow Jennifer - Instagram - https://instagram.com/therealjencohen - Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/therealjencohen - Twitter - https://twitter.com/therealjencohen - Jennifer’s Website - https://jennifercohen.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Today on the podcast, we have Rich Rule. Rich's story to me is just one that is so inspirational. He is someone who truly just tells you that age is only a number. Rich Rule has one of the top health and wellness podcasts in the world, but more than that, he's an ultra endurance athlete, a vegan, ultra-indurance athlete. But he was an addict and he transformed and turned his world around in his mid-40s, becoming the fittest man alive and winning the ultra-man world championships. He also wrote a New York Times bestseller called Ultraman.

What's truly remarkable that less than two years prior to seller called Ultraman. What's truly remarkable, that less than two years prior to his first Ultraman, he didn't even own a bike, let alone ever race on one. Like I said, he is pure determination and will and his story is really one that is super inspirational for people who think that their time is up and that is too late for them, think again because Rich is an example that it's never too late. It's mind over matter. Enjoy this podcast. Let me know what your thoughts are.

I really enjoyed this conversation. Hope you do too. By the way, that like whole little segment that we just did before we actually press record was so I liked it. That was so interesting. The podcast before the podcast. The podcast before the podcast. And since you are a big podcast or how did you not do that? Does that happen to you all the time?

It's so hard. Ideally, I would love to have everything set up and then I arrive and sit down without having said anything to the guests so it can be totally fresh, but it also doesn't feel like welcoming or hospitable to do that. So I always try to keep the pre-conversation on the kind of simplistic surface level, right? And the minute it starts to feel like, I'm like, hold that thought, like, let's not you know, be true.

But you know, sometimes you end up doing it anyway and then you're like, wow, we should have been recording that. Well, right, exactly. I always find them, some of the best conversations or the best pieces of the conversation happen either before or after the podcast. And they're like, damn, why don't we just like have the cameras going, but to your point,

then it feels very cold and makes the person not feel very welcome. So you have to kind of guide it, I feel, all the time. Making the guest feel welcome and comfortable for me is one of the most important things. And it's gotten trickier as the show has gotten larger. Right. And now we're in this fancy studio and there's lots of cameras, you have cameras here. And certain people get a little bit rigid or freaked out by that. And so the challenge is always like getting people to relax. Because my thing when I'm going into

an interview is the priority for me is always to try to make an emotional connection with the person. The information that they're there to impart is secondary in the way that I do it to connecting with that person. If I can't connect with them, maybe they'll impart the information, but in my experience, the information won't connect with the audience to the extent that I think is possible unless you can feel like, the audience has to feel that these two people are bonding and sync with each other. So back in the early days,

when it was just sitting at a kitchen table, or I would take my travel kit to somebody's house, they're in their environment, they're safe, there's no camera, it was a lot easier to do that. It's harder now with all the fancy stuff and we have lights and all, you know, I don't know what your experience has been with that, but it also depends on the guests. Some people are very media savvy and they're comfortable and that brings its own challenges trying to get past whatever talking points they're

there to talk about to get to the real stuff. Sometimes you have to exhaust that. And then there are other people who this might be the first time they've ever done anything like this. And you know, in those situations, all of the kind of pre stuff before recording, I think is really important. Even if you end up talking about stuff that you wish had been recorded, if they feel comfortable and relaxed once we get going, then that, I think, compensates for what you miss by not recording the kind of stuff when they arrive. When they arrive, that's actually a very good point. I find that sometimes, and I've said this before, that sometimes I have had guests on the podcast who are like very, very big, like a-lister

people who are so slick in what they stay and how they stay at and they're very media savvy, where I find that the podcast becomes very, very bland and vanilla because they're not telling you anything you haven't heard or steaming them say a million times, where I don't even post them because it's just because you become very much like me too. I did that also and it doesn't feel connected at all. And then like I said, I feel the people that are usually the most interesting or the give that have the best experiences or this type of thing are the people who are little less savvy with that, right? And so they don't have the same type of like point

that they have to hit. And the message points and the sound bites, do you find that as well with that part? Yeah, I mean to your first scenario with the media savvy person, then I think, the responsibility lies on you as the host to create the experience. And in those situations, you have a choice.

You can either, this is what I do. I'll interrupt them and throw a curveball at them because you've got to get them off that game. And then you get accused of it. Why are you interrupting the guests? But like, you have to interrupt them. Like, you're trying to create the best experience for the audience. And if you feel like this is boring or this is something that is a retread of things that people have already heard, you have to interject and you gotta like shake them up by giving them something unexpected so that it interrupts that that like pattern. The other strategy is just to allow them to exhaust all of that like we were

talking about before until they don't have any more talking points. And then it gets real. And you can edit out that stuff in the beginning if you think it's boring. So you could do a lot in post. We don't do a lot of editing. I mean, those are rare situations in our case, but occasionally stuff like that happens. And with the less media savvy person,

they just need to feel, again, it's about feeling comfortable and cared for. And if you can convince them that they're in good hands and you're here to like cast them in their best light, I think that that goes a long way. But listen, when you do, I've done over 700 interviews. They're not all going to be amazing. Like some of them are going to be, and occasionally

someone will come on and it doesn't, your responsibility is to the audience, not to the guest. That's a really great point. That's a really great point. As a people pleaser, so that's a very uncomfortable space for me. I have to remember that the people that I'm indebted to are the people who are taking time out of their data, listen to the show. On occasion, it's uncomfortable, but if the guest isn't rising to the level of quality

that I've established for my show and meets the expectations that the typical audience member has kind of, you know, ignored themselves to by being a fan of the show, then you got to like either edit it down into something that is good or you have to say this one's not good enough to publish. Who is the most shocking? Like who was out of the 700, I'm sure you have a lot, but give me a couple people that you thought were like really good that you were. Yeah, it's always, it's like, you know, get this question a lot.

Like, you're choosing your baby. Yeah, I know, I know. You know, I mean, everybody that I invite on is somebody I'm curious about, or somebody that I admire. Oh, yeah, I would never let anyone book the show. Okay, so you take the people you want. It's all on feel and gut instinct. Like I could be more strategic and sort of systematic about it. But I'm really not like I it's just somebody I come across and you know, I've a spreadsheet of people that I want. And sometimes it takes a long time before

they're in LA because I only do in-person stuff. And I'm willing to wait to make that happen. So that's the first thing, like trusting my instinct. And I've learned over the many years of doing this, that that's the most important thing, because in the past, I've run into situations where a bunch of people, you've got to get this person, they're amazing, they're amazing. And I'm like, well, I don't know, I'll look into it. I'm not really feeling it, but I don't know, maybe they're amazing, they're amazing. And I'm like, well, I don't know, I'll look into it. I'm not really feeling it, but I don't know. Maybe they're right.

And then I'll book that person. And it's a flat experience, not because the guest isn't worthy or amazing, but I'm not the right person to have that conversation with that person. And so it has to come from within. But to answer your question, for me, the most meaningful experiences that I've had that stand out the most in memory are generally, I mean, it's fun to interview

fancy a list kind of people. That's always exciting, but really the heart for me is when I find somebody who I think is incredible. That's just somebody doing their thing somewhere relatively anonymously and I can bring them on and like shine a spotlight on them and help kind of create an audience for some amazing wisdom that they have.

And then they're like, wow, all these feet, that's a really cool thing. And I think the recurring theme that really resounds for me and for the audience are stories of transformation. When you have somebody who is, for the most part, like an average person who's overcome tremendous obstacles and distinguish themselves somehow in some specific way, how they got from that place

to the other place is always fascinating. And I think that's because we can all see some aspect of ourselves in that. And we can reap some level of inspiration or strategies or tactics that are applicable in our own life. And that comes through story. For me, you can say these are the five things that you need to do.

But again, back to the emotional connection piece. If you can emotionally connect with that individual and see some piece of yourself in them, as they tell this story, this hero's journey from point A to point Z, those are the stories that tend to rent long-term space in the memory and stand out. So a perfect example of that would be a guy called Joshua LaJonte, who's a guy just randomly stumbled across on the internet, who'd lost like 350 pounds, living in southern Louisiana in the Bayou in like not New Orleans, but like in a very remote

township without any kind of mentors or role models in his community decided that he didn't want to live this way anymore and took it upon himself to make all of these changes and change his diet and became a marathon runner and ultimately an ultra marathon runner and actually won like an ultra race. And he went from looking like Chris Farley to Bradley Cooper, it's unbelievable. And I was the first person who showed interest in that story and was able to share that story with a lot of people, which inspired him to continue. Like he manages trailer park homes and drain sewers. Like he has a very blue collar kind of like life.

But then he, you know, continued to like really, you know, develop this trajectory that he was on and ultimately ended up like on the cover of Runner's World magazine and has been on Good Morning America. And like, that's cool. Cause like I saw it early and I was like, you need to get, you know, being able to continually like encourage him would be an example.

Another one would be. When was that by the way? I mean, I've had a, I had a mod really early on, like probably nine years ago. Oh wow. Wow. And he's been on a couple times. Another one was a guy called John McAvoy, who has some

renown in Great Britain, but not in the United States. And he's a guy who grew up in a notorious, it's a long story. But essentially, he grew up in a notorious South London crime family and was reared from a very young age to become a bank robber, an armed robber, which is like something he should, like it's sort of a good fellow story. Like as a kid, he started scouting heist and then you know with his uncle and all the

family members who were all like, you know, doing out there like, you know, looting and pillaging. And it's a long story, but ultimately gets pinched and ends up in Baltimore prison, which is super hardcore. And he was in like the high security wing with Abu Hamza and like all these unbelievable, you know, like terrorists and all that kind of stuff. And he was serving a double life sentence. And I don't wanna belabor the story,

but essentially- You're not belabor, it's actually very interesting. He ends up falling in love with the rowing machine in the gym and realized that if he was raising money for charities, they would give him unlimited time on this rowing machine. And in short shrift, he ends up breaking British and world records on the indoor rowing machine

from prison serving a life sentence. Oh, my God. So he realized he had this capacity as an athlete that he didn't know that he had. Ultimately, gets paroled. Tells the parole officer says, or whoever was like lording over the decision as to whether to light them out on parole said, if we let you out, what are you going to do? Like what's what are you going to what are you gonna do? Like, what's, what are you gonna, how are you gonna pursue a living?

And he said, I'm gonna become a professional athlete at the parole officer said, I've been doing this for like 20 years or whatever, nobody has ever said that, you know, and they end up letting them out. And he goes to the, the rowing club on the Thames outside London, where all these fancy rowing people were. And they put them in a boat. And he realizes that even though he had this unbelievable engine, he couldn't translate it in

an actual boat. Like it's the kind of thing, kind of like swimming. Like you have to be doing it for a long time, the kid to have that special feel and all of that. So he decided, well, I'll go into triathlon and he becomes an Iron Man athlete and the only Nike-sponsored Iron Man athlete and has distinguished himself and then becomes this incredible advocate for prison reform in the UK and has like testified at 10 Downing Street

and has all these nonprofits now and he's become this amazing human being and like just getting him to, I mean, the way he tells the story, like this is a movie. And now they are making a movie on this guy's life. So being able to tell that, like those stories I love the most,

and being able to say, you've never heard of this guy, but get ready, he's gonna make your hair stand on end and like just let them loose. And that's always like a really cool thing. So those are gonna be two that stand out. There's many more really cool thing. So those are the two that stand out. There's many more, but those are my favorites. And you found this guy just scrolling the internet.

Well, there was media on him in the U.K. Well, there was media on him in the U.K. So he's gotten more well-known over there. Again, this was what I did very early on. I was recently in London, so I sat down with him. Again, I'm putting that one up soon to catch up on where he is now. But those kind of stories hold a special place in my heart. Oh my God, for sure.

And they're so inspirational for an everyday person. Because that just goes to show you people are not at that one anyway. Like you don't know what you don't know. You never even tried rowing until he was in jail. Like who would have thought that he would have been this like master athlete? Right. And to be in such a hopeless state and still find a path right, growing until he was in jail. Like, who would have thought that he would have been this like master athlete? Right. And to be in such a hopeless state, and still find a path forward, to still be able to hold on to hope, to still, you know, to still, you know,

figure out a way to have agency in your life, no matter your circumstances, I think is a really powerful idea. Absolutely. Did you ever think, because like your, your resume is, I think is a really powerful idea. Absolutely. Did you ever think, because your resume is, I think, just, well, not just me. It's so, it's big and it's very, it's so vast. Did you ever think that you would become given from where you were to what you are doing now?

This very well-known, excellent podcaster. That's, like, I feel like this is like probably not what you ever expected in your trajectory of your life, ever. No. I mean, it completely unpredictable in any way. I mean, I started, I started my show 10 years ago. So I wasn't the first, like Joe Rogan was doing his thing in Adam Corral, like a lot of comedians.

But it was a time- Now I'll take a comedian, right? A time before, it was a time before the iPhone. And so if you wanted to listen to a podcast, you had to download it on your desktop off iTunes, and you had to bounce it to like an iPod. Like you had to work for it. It was not a seamless technology. And I fell in love with podcasting when I was training for these crazy ultra races because I would have to go out on my bike for like

eight hours. And I can't listen to music, but I needed something to like distract me from, you know, just the discomfort and all that. Why can't you listen to music? Are you not allowed? Just, no, I could, but I was like eight hours. You know, like music, yeah. And I was like, I need something to like occupy my mind. And I fell in love with podcasting. I was the only person that I knew that actually listened to podcast,

but I was like, this is unbelievable. Like, I'm learning so much and I'm hearing stories from all these crazy people. Why isn't everybody doing this? Nobody was really. But it was clear to me that this was something special. And so before I started a podcast, I'd listened to thousands and thousands

of hours of podcasting. So I had a sense of what the medium was. And at that time, as I said, it was mostly populated by comedians. There wasn't anything really all that unique or interesting happening in like health, wellness, and fitness and stuff like that. So after my book, Finding Ultra, came out in 2012,

I was started thinking like, what do I wanna do now or what's the next creative expression? And just on a whim, I was like, well, I could try this podcasting thing. I know some cool people, like let's just see, and my wife and I sat down and did one, and I was like, that was fun, let's do it tomorrow. Like that was it.

Like there was no, you couldn't make a living doing it. Right, right, right. Like nobody was making money doing it. Like, so I was just doing it purely for the joy of it and for the fun, and because it wasn't competitive, either people weren't clamoring to start podcasts. Nobody was getting into it. Like even though we barely had any downloads or listeners,

it still like went to like number one in health and fitness. And so that was encouragement. It was like, oh wow, like, look, there's my show, like right on the iTunes thing right there. Like this is cool. Like let's just keep doing it. And so it really just grew out of an organic love for doing it for the keep doing it. And so it really just grew out of an organic love for doing it for

the doing of it. And then the technology got seamless and you know more and more people started listening. And but I would have never predicted that it would that it would be like the thing it is today. I mean it wasn't cool to like have a podcast in 2012. And now everybody in their dog literally has a podcast. It's like very, very, it's becoming crowded, but then they say it's not really crowded because it hasn't even started. Whatever that. I think it's still early days.

You think so too? I think that, yeah, although you, you know, there's however many millions of podcasts, most of those are like podcasts that people have abandoned. Yeah, that's true. I don't know how many active ones there actually are because people get into it and then they realize it's a lot of work and it's difficult to do it sustainably over the long haul.

Totally. And I've had to learn that. I've come close to burning out a couple of times. So, you know, I've now figured out, you know, how to do it and maintain that love for it because if I'm not loving it, it's not going to be a good experience for the audience anyway. Well, how about you do a month or a week or what is your schedule? We publish six a month, so every Monday and every other Thursday.

I try to average recording to a week. That's kind of like the typical thing. And you actually do all the prep and all the stuff. I only ask that, me too. But I'm just wondering because a lot of people just like show up and they're like just winging. And then it's kind of like, you can tell the difference. So I'm figuring, I'm trying to figure out and navigate what really what what you think

is like your secret sauce of what makes yours. So is it because you're coming from the right place? The intentions are properly there. It's like what you're naturally interested in with the guests, you make them feel comfortable. Like I think it's a combination of all of those things. I think you have to do you. Yeah. You have to know what your strengths are and what your interests are.

There's no right or wrong way. I mean Larry King famously like you ever prepared for any of his interviews and he's amazing. He's great. Yeah, exactly true. I'm not Larry King and I'm an obsessive compulsive like very driven perfectionist type personality which has its pluses and big minuses. So for me like preparation is huge. Like if they're coming on because they have a book out I'm going to read the book. Yeah. You know if they you know I put probably 8 to 10 hours into every guess before they sit down. But I don't prepare questions.

I just try to familiarize myself as much as possible. And I'll create an outline that has ideas or topic headings or just subject matter that I want to go into. And I review the outline many times over over and then I don't look at it like during, then I show up and just try to be as present as possible for the experience and just trust in the preparation. Blazing deals, Boundless Options It's Hot Grill Summer at Whole Foods Market from June 14 through July 4.

Fire up the grill with quality cuts at the best prices. We're talking animal welfare certified meat. Check out the sales on bone-in rib-eye beef kabobs and New York strip steak. Round out your barbecue with plant-based proteins, sliced cheese, soft buns, and all the condiments. Plus, sales on fresh strawberries, peaches, and more. Don't forget to pie, either. Get grilling at Whole Foods Market Terms Apply. Well, okay, so like, so I haven't even opened my little thing with you, but it's your background was, I know that we got introduced because of Darren,

but I was very familiar with you because I think your background's like sick, because you're not like, you're also, the fact that you became an endurance athlete at 40 plus is incredible to me, which I want to talk about. But you were also, before that, you went to law school. You had addiction problems. Like, your life wasn't what it is now, at all.

In fact, it's fine, though, when you Google you, when I, you know, like, ritual. Yeah. For whatever reason, vegan is the first thing that comes up that you're a vegan. And then the fact that you're in a song called Rich Roll, a song called Rich Roll, or the same thing. I didn't write that. No, no, I didn't.

No, I didn't. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that about you, that. What's that? No, no, no, no. It was just a quiz. It's kind of like how the rich roll, you know, it's like, oh, okay, I'm like, I'm like, maybe he was a fan.

I didn't know. No, no, no. I wish that would have been cool. That would be really cool. That would be really cool. But do people ask you about that? Because I feel like that's like came up so many times and that was like cool.

Well, it's like in the Twitter feed. It's like, it's, you know, it gets, like, my name gets thrown in with like stuff about nipsy hustle and all the time. Because that term rich role is, you know, has a meaning that is, has nothing to do with my name, which is like about how like rich people conduct themselves in the world. Right right right. And then in your

name is retro, which is kind of funny. But so can we just talk about how you went from your swimmer and you are you were like a college athlete, right? You went to Stanford and you went to Cornell for law school, correct? And you were not this healthy person that I'm seeing here, you were totally different. And then was it like when you were 30 or something, you were going up a pair like a flight of stairs? And yeah, so what, so yeah, I grew up as a swimmer.

I was a very kind of insecure, awkward, kind of sensitive kid. I had trouble making friends. I was not a natural athlete. Anything with a ball or a hand coordination, like I'm a disaster. I can believe I tried to play basketball. Like, you know, like, you know,

I had an eye patch and head gear, like not a vision for you in any way, shape or feeling. Really? But I started swimming at a very young age and that was the one thing that I kind of enjoyed and was actually good at. Like I showed some promise. And when you're young, like you're gonna gravitate

towards the things that you feel like, you know, you have some opportunity in. And that was swimming for me. And I did it for fun for years and summer league stuff. I grew up on the East Coast, Washington DC area. But then around like 14 or 15, when like the bullying and all the insecurity got really bad, I was like, I'm going all in on swimming. And underwater, like it was like,

it's like my safe space, you know, it's like you feel like you're in your mother's womb where it feels protected and away from, you know, all the noise and the confusion of what it means to be a teenager and all of that. And I started doing club swimming, you know, morning workouts, 4.45 every morning, you know, hour and a half before school, two hours after school. And realized quickly, like I was on a team that had some of the best swimmers in the country, high school swimmers, like very competitive program. And realized quickly that although I was good, I wasn't like the best. I wasn't the most talented. There were a lot of kids who were a lot better than me. But

I realized pretty quickly that if I put in extra work, I could like bridge that talent deficit gap. And I became like a workhorse, like the one who would do stuff other people wouldn't do. I was always the first one to morning practice. I was more reliable than my coach. He gave me a key to the pool. Like, and I would grind. Like I was a grinder. You know, and so by the time I was a senior in high school, I was one, you know, one of

the top swimmers in my area and was getting recruited by all the colleges and all of that. And ended up at Stanford, which was the number one collegiate swimming program in the country at the time. I got into a whole bunch of Ivy League schools. I got into Harvard and Princeton. And really thought, the mental calculus for me was, these are all great schools. I can go to, and so the differentiator for me

was really swimming, because that was what I was most passionate about. And it was a function of whether or not I wanted to be a big fish in a small pond or a small fish in a big pond. And I just thought, I'll never know what my potential is unless I put myself in that scary situation and see what I'm capable of. So I go to Stanford, the world record holder in my event was on the team, you know, Olympic gold, not aists and American record holders

and all that kind of stuff. And ultimately, I just, I love being part of that team. It was just, it was an extraordinary, I was a pinch me. I was like, I can't even believe like I get to go here and I get to show up at the pool every day and swim with these guys. But ultimately, two things happened.

One was not the right program for me, because it was really catered towards those ultra elite athletes. And so I was doing workouts that weren't really customized for optimizing my potential. And then the second thing was that I was introduced to alcohol. and then that is a whole other story, but that really threw me off my trajectory to say the least. How is that possible? How did you get introduced to Al, not to interrupt you, but how did that happen while you're in this like, like, this top school for swimming? College in the 80s? So it was more like a college experience.

It's more hard play hard, you know, I know I know I know I know really hard and then you know, and it's all about the pride of being able to do it all. But you know, the the first real experience I had with alcohol is actually kind of a cool story. I was on a recruiting trip to the University of Michigan. And my grandfather had been the captain of the University of Michigan's swim team in like

1929, American record holder, and almost made the Olympics like he died before I was born, died when my mom was in college from a heart attack. Anyway, I was on a recruing shift in the University of Michigan and they have a great swim program. I love the coach there. And there was a dual meet and then there was a party that night and I was at this house party and there was a cag and all the swimmers and divers and all that kind of stuff. And a guy, you know, gave me a beer

and the guy who gave me the beer is a guy called Bruce Kimball whose dad was the diving coach at University of Michigan, Dick Kimball. And Bruce, other than Greg Luganus, was the best diver in America. And there's a little story there. But he handsome his beer, and he's holding his own beer, just like keg beer. And he bends down, he bends his knees, and he proceeds to launch into a backflip, and he sticks the landing, lands perfectly,

and did not spill the beer. And I was like, that's the greatest party trick I've ever seen. Whatever that guy has, like I want it, and just party that night, had an amazing time. But for me, and so, the sort of punctuation of that story is that Bruce Kimball ended up drunk driving, carining into a crowd of people, and killing one person or two people,

I can't remember when to jail, his athletic career was over. He had another driving accident where his face got bashed in. And then it was a really terrible alcoholic and has since gotten sober and the like, but like suffered quite some tragic circumstances as a result of his drinking.

And in certain ways, like, you know, to add a little literary flair to it was sort of a foreshadowing of what would come with me. But, you know, for me, I knew deep down, almost on an unconscious, like DNA level, that alcohol did something different for me than it did to everybody else. Because that first time I got drunk,

just felt like the answer to every problem I didn't know I had, like this warm blanket that was enveloping me and just making me feel comfortable in my own skin for the first time, I was like, this is how normal people feel. Like I wanna feel like this all the time. And suddenly I was able to look a girl in the eye and talk to her or just feel like what I thought

it felt like to be a normal person who kind of had a role book for life. And so as a result of that, I started chasing that more and more, and there was a slow denigration of everything aspirational in my life, like all the goals that I set for myself, all the things that I had imagined for my life didn't disappear, but they became secondary to chasing the next good time. And so if you have any familiarity with alcoholics or alcoholism in general, it's a progressive disease. And so I was able to manage it for many years, but my life kind of inch by inch became a little bit more and more out of control every subsequent year until at the end, I was a pretty broken individual.

So, when you were like, so did Swimmy not give you confidence though, just because you became really good, maybe you were not, did you make it to like, I know you didn't try for the Olympics, but you said your team was very much that way. You probably were like one level, maybe not like one notch below. That did not give you any like self-complete Yeah, I mean it was it was great to go from the high school that I went to where I was sort of persona on grotto I had to go into Stanford and being on this one team and feel like oh like people respect this rumors here in California versus you know It was there was something about that, but I had such a deep

was, you know, there was something about that, but I had such a deep seeded insecurity and low regard for myself, that alcohol sooth, that no external validation could solve for me. Yeah, and I think that's part of it. And just, you know, I mean, people are always like, why do you think you became an alcoholic? I mean, you can kind of probe that question forever. I don't spend a lot of time doing that because it doesn't really provide me any solutions

for how to live now. But yeah, I think the other thing that's important to recognize is that it worked for me. It gave me the confidence that I was seeking, like not an earned confidence, a false confidence, but a confidence nonetheless that taught me how to be kind of a social animal because I was so awkward, it made me feel like I wasn't awkward anymore

until I could suddenly kind of embody that person. And that's why people use drugs and alcohol. At least that's why I did. You use them because they work. Right? Ultimately, they stop working and your life goes, hey, why, which is what happened to me. But it's hard to tell that person in the early phases of that condition that they should stop doing what they're doing because it is functioning for them.

But how did it go, hey, wire? I mean, you were functioning and were you still able to swim for many years that way? With three fingers? Yeah, I mean, when you're young, you can get away with a lot. Of course. I could party, you know,

and it's like, I could party till two and still make morning workout and be fine and get good grades and all of that. Right, it's called it. And you don't, you have this like, there's an ego that goes with that, right? But, you know, slow, it was like, I swam well, my freshman year, I never But, you know, slowly, it was like,

I swam while my freshman year, I never swam while again, and I didn't end up swimming my senior year, I quit the team. Like, and I never felt like I achieved my potential as an athlete, I robbed myself of that in many ways. Grades weren't that important, they start to slip, who cares, I'm at Stanford,

everything will be fine. Somehow I squeak into law school, I don't know how I got through law school, because at that time, I'm like, you everything will be fine. Somehow I squeak into law school. I don't know how I got through law school because at that time, I'm like, you went to Cornell too. It wasn't like you went to some like, you know, Schmage Ray School across the street here. Yeah, you know, how did you get in?

Yeah, I was the last person admitted to that class. I was on the wait list. It's a longer story. But I got a call from them literally, like two days before class started and said, we have a spot for you, but you got to tell us like right now. I was living in New York City at the time and ended up saying, okay, and then figuring out where Ithaca, New York was and driving up there without an apartment and everybody had been preparing for law school all summer with this reading list.

I was like, I was in New York two days ago, like doing something totally different. And now I'm like in this, you know, it happened very quickly. And I often think what would happen if I knock out and in or decided to do something else. But yeah, I mean, what would you have done? I didn't get in. What would you have done? I was like, I was like working on film sets as a PA and, you know, I had worked in a law firm for a while when I lived in New York City.

Mainly I was partying because Manhattan in the late 1980s, I mean, it's a good time. Totally. So whatever job I could find to like service that would have been fine with me. But then you finished law school and you worked at SCAT in ARPs, which is like one of the top firms and like, well, I was a paralegal there when I was in New York City. So I didn't get, I wasn't a lawyer at Scadden. Oh, you weren't a lawyer, okay. I graduated Cornell and then I went to San Francisco and I was a lawyer at an employment law firm there called Litleur Mendelssohn for a couple of years.

Is that like a good law firm? It's like the, if you want it, if you're into an employment law, yeah. Like it's just a problem. You're a joke, man, okay. But my point is you were still drinking this entire time. Yeah, and the drinking was getting more and more excessive. And with that comes the shame because you know you're out of control,

but you're trying to hide it. You're trying to pretend like everything is cool. And so you start living this double life existence. The life that you live during the day when you are wearing this mask and you're being this professional person. And then the life that you're living when you go home and no one's watching and you can like let your freak flag fly and you know, do all this crazy shit that you feel compelled to do, but privately you would never admit to anyone that you were actually doing.

Were you drinking before you went to work? At the end, it got bad. Yeah, at the end, that was after I ended up having a marriage and went sideways. And I was living in LA at this point and working for a law firm in Century City, like right across the street here. And then the morning drinking started, the Vachatonic in the shower and the Tall Boy between my legs as I drove to work and sneaking out during the day. And that's just a ticking time bomb, you know, and it all blew up.

Ultimately, when I ended up getting like 2D UIs in a row, like within a, like a six week period, um, here in LA. And after living in San Francisco and drunk driving quite a bit, uh, which is hard to admit, but I did a lot of it. Uh, you realize living down here that the cops don't fuck around. If they pull you over, they just assume you're a Coke dealer or a crack addict and you've got a shotgun under the seat and all of that and they treat you accordingly. I was facing jail time for having to DUI.

It was a dire situation. That really brought me to my knees, but then I had this marriage go sideways. Essentially, it's a long story, and it's a very typical alcoholic story. My story isn't any crazier than most alcoholics. The house of cards that was my life had toppled on top of me. There was nothing like, I mean, I have some crazy stories, but mostly it's just sad and pathetic and lonely. At the end, I was worried about going to jail, worried about getting fired from my job.

You still maintained a job. It's something that people call. Yeah, but it was getting close to it. The second time I got a DUI, the cop who arrested me took my wallet, looked at my business card, and realized that the firm that I worked for was the same firm that represented the Beverly Hills Police Department. Oh my god. And the boss, my boss, the lawyer that I was working for, was handling a lot of litigation

for the LAPD and the Beverly Hills Police Department. And this particular cop knew my boss. So my boss got a phone call and knew what had happened to me. So he was totally briefed on what was going on. And I was like, I was going to, you know, that's a whole other story. But ultimately, like, you know, my time and the lawyer was coming to an end at this firm. And, you know, I was sleeping on a barramatrice on the floor of a shitty apartment with no furniture

in it. My family told me like, we love you, but we cannot stand by and watch you do this anymore and we don't really want to have anything to do with you. And until or unless you're ready to actually get into the solution of this problem. So your family already was intervening. Oh, a big time. They were like, we're done. And you know, my friends had fallen away

and I purposely was isolating like I didn't want to call anyone. And so the people I was hanging out with were, you know, what they call the lower companions. And it was just getting darker and darker. A lower companion. Is that a real term? Yeah, lower. In the parlance of recovery, yeah, lower companion. That's what they call them. Yeah darker and lower companion. Is that a real term? Yeah, lower.

In the parlance of recovery, yeah, lower companion. That's what they call them. Yeah, the lower companions. Wow. Okay. Or just drinking alone, you know. Right, but you're going to find people that meet you where you are, I guess. Exactly.

And that's what that is. Exactly. Is that why you're engaged when you said you still had a girlfriend or a fiance or something at point? I was. Yeah, so I was. Was she an alcoholic too though? No, no, no, no. No, no, no. You know, no.

And that whole thing got married and then the marriage, it ended on the honeymoon and that was the last time I've ever seen her. It's like, it's crazy, you know, like it's just like... There's a last time you ever saw each other. Yes. Yeah. Is she where she now? Is she married?

She lives in the Bay Area and is married and has kids and I'm happy for her. Wow. But you were still able to keep it together by a thread, it seems, but very... Yeah, but that thread was getting frayed, and yeah, it was all, I mean, everybody has their bottom, and, you know, but what is your bottom bottom? Well, I think my emotional bottom was when

that marriage ended on the honeymoon, and it was the most psychic and emotional pain I could ever imagine, because everybody I cared about in my world had been at this wedding and everyone thought that we were married and I had to go home and tell people and face the fact that this thing had exploded in my face, which was deeply embarrassing and shameful. And it was so painful that I, it wasn't like, oh, I need to get sober. It was, oh, I need to drink more now to,

because I can't, like it's so painful, I can't even get up out of bed in the morning. So I had to do that for a while, until finally, I was ready to do something different. And, you know, sobriety is for people that need it. It's for people that want it. It's for people that want it. It's really all about willingness. And, you know, that kind of line in the sand moment is visited upon people, you know, at different stages. It's like the elevators going down, as they say,

it doesn't have to hit the ground floor. Like, you can get off it at any time. It will eventually hit the ground floor. And it's really like how much pain are you willing to tolerate before you're ready to change something. And I think for me, at least the pain of my situation had to exceed the fear of doing something different or letting go of this way of living because it's really insane when you think about it. Like when you tell an alcoholic, like, you can, you can keep doing this and drinking. And here's what's going to happen. You're going to, there's only three places you're going to go, like a jail, an institution, or you're going to die, or you can give this up.

And you have that you can, you can go on this journey over here of, you know, of joy and love and respect and all of that. And the alcoholic will say, I need to get back to you on that. It's so crazy. Which is the insanity of alcoholism and drug addiction, right? It's so powerful and baffling. I'm pervasive.

And I just, I think, got every day that I had that moment and had the willingness to raise my hand and and, and you know, get well. It's Jeep 4x4 season. Make your next adventure epic with Jeep Wrangler 4xE. Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xE and the 3-row Grand Cherokee L. Hurrien now for great deals. Now get 3,500 combined bonus cash and Texas residents get 2,000 bonus cash. Plus owners were less seized if competitive vehicles get 500 bonus cash.

In the 2023 Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited and Grand Cherokee L Limited. Competitive vehicles exclude all other FCA vehicles. Contact dealer for details. Take retail delivery by 531-23. Jeep is a registered trademark. Did you go to rehab? I was your first. So yeah, I was 31 and I ended up going to a treatment center in Oregon. Thinking I'd just be there for like the 28 day spin drive. But when I got there and started being honest with people about how I was living and what I was actually doing, the counselors were like, yeah, we think you should stick around for a while.

You know, maybe you should let go of when it is you think you're gonna leave and just like invest in this. And I was so broken, I really was willing. I was like, I'll do anything you tell me to do. Because the dawning epiphany was me being disabused of this idea that I was in control or that my intelligence was driving me in a healthy direction for me. Like, oh, I'm just smart guy.

I want to make these schools and job and all that kind of stuff. And you're shucking jive with that. But the truth that really landed on me like a ton of bricks was like, yeah, you think you're such a smart guy. You're best thinking got you here in this mental institution, like, how smart are you now? Right? And I was like, I don't know anything. got you here in this mental institution, like how smart are you now, right? And I was like, I don't know anything.

Just like tell me what to do and I'll do it. And that, I think, is why I was able to really kind of get well and embrace sobriety and create a long-term foundation of sobriety. But like, I was in that treatment center for 100 days. And then when I got out, came back to LA and really made sobriety my number one priority. And like, yeah, I went back to my job,

but it was really like- The same job, there was a better way to go to that. Yeah, I was like, they, they like, you know, so that boss, right, who knew what was going on, I was like, I need to go to treatment and they supported me to do that. And so, even though during that tenure and rehab, I realized like, this job is not for me. Like, you know, I was like the square page trying to jam into it around

whole the whole time. But they had been so supportive. I was like, I need to go back and work there for at least as long as I was gone. And I think I ended up working there for like a year after that, knowing like ultimately I got to find something else to do. But really like sobriety was my job. Like just, you know, at least a meeting a day if not to like step work sponsor, like all of like the whole AA thing, like was that was my job. Did you relapse ever? I relapsed. So that was 1998. 13 years into sobriety out of one day relapsed.

So now I guess I'm coming up on 11 years from that day. So that one day? Is it really stupid, like lame, pathetic relapse? What happened? I mean, so I was at Ultra Man in Hawaii, which is this double Iron Man race that I'd raised a couple times. So many questions for you to know.

So I was there for the third time and I had trained an entire year and I was so crazy fit. I was like the most fit I had ever been. And I was there. In 2009, I did well. I got six that year and I was the fastest American and then the year after that I did Epic 5 where I did these 500 manz on 5 wine islands. I have that here. 2011 I went back to Ultraman and I was like I'm here to win and I literally put all my eggs in that basket for an entire year training for that race and ended up DNFing

pulling out with a respiratory condition like I was coughing up blood on the second day and... DNF is it did not finish yeah uh And it was devastating to me like because I was so intent on performing at this race and I put so much into it and Things this and that I mean it happens when you're an athlete like things don't always go your way And in this case they went terribly awry and I I just, you know, I didn't feel myself. I knew you. But how did it happen?

What happened? I think I was so lean. Like in endurance, it's all about like power to weight ratio. And I got really lean. Like I think it was 158 pounds. I'm probably like 178 right now. It's like 20 pounds of power. So super lean.

And I was like crazy fit. Like I could go all 178 right now. It's like 20 pounds of a whole my God. So I was like crazy fit. Like I could go all day without getting tired. And I think because I was at such a razor's edge of fitness, like you're sort of immune compromised, this happens to a lot of athletes too. Like they go to the Olympics and like suddenly they get like a sore throat or something like that because you're like literally like, you know, I'm the edge on the, on the very edge. And I just pushed it too far.

And during that period of time, although I'd never questioned whether or not I was in alcoholic, I'd really made this race and my athletic trajectory, like my higher power. Like I put, I made that the number one priority of my life over my spiritual life. And that kind of detached me from a lot of the tools that got me sober and kept me sober. So I think I was vulnerable. And that relapse was sort of just waiting in the shadows for an opportunity. And in the days after that experience, I was with my family in Hawaii, found myself at a beach bar,

and the family was down the beach, and I was like, I'm gonna have a beer, you know? And then, like, they're still down there. I think I drank four beers in like 15 minutes. And then my daughter, who was like, I don't know, maybe 10 at the time, came up, and she's like, you don't look right, what's going on? And I was like, I don't know, maybe 10 at the time came up and she's like, you don't look right, what's going on? And I was like, I'm busted.

And I knew immediately, like, oh, I can't hide that I'm like kind of drunk right now. And just went to a meeting that night. So luckily, like a lot of people who go out, like it's really hard to come back. And there's a lot of shame with that too, because it's all a lot of, you know, A is about time, how much time do you have and so that was really embarrassing and kind of an awful experience to confront the fact that like after so many years and thousands and thousands of A meetings that I would make that choice but I think in retrospect it ultimately made my sobriety much stronger because I had gotten

to the point as somebody who had 13 years at the time, you kind of, you're like, yeah, I got to figure it out. Like, I know what's going on. I don't really need to do all this, it's the step work stuff. And I don't have to call it my sponsor. Like, I already know what he's going to tell me. Like, I'll just, you know, I can like, I can like everything static like I'm in a good place and That's an illusion and and that's also

Being driven by your ego and yourself well, which are in a theoretical to sprydie which is promised on humility and You know a will beyond your own of your choosing and the like And I had like lost touch with that. And so I got right sized. And that heavy dose of humble pie has allowed me to return to the program and really kind of embrace not only how powerful alcohol is amazed because like holy shit, like after all these years.

And I was right back there, you know. Like I was, if they say like your addiction is doing pushups in the dark all along, and it was like, holy shit, that is so true. And it was scary that I could make that choice after all that I had done to avoid that happening. And so now, I never take it for granted. I'm very aware that it isn't static and every, the supply is beyond addiction to, I think, anybody who's trying to better themselves

that every thought that you entertain, every word that comes out of your mouth, every interaction with another human being, every decision that you make is either moving you towards sobriety or supplant that with like the aspirational version of yourself or you're regressing, it's moving you towards sobriety or supplant that with, like the aspirational version of yourself, or you're regressing. It's moving you away from the idealized person

of your aspirations. And the more you can kind of be present with that idea, I think it makes you a lot more conscious of the choices that you're making, because they seem, who cares if we gossip about that person, what's the big deal? But is that something my aspirational self would do? Like, probably not, seems harmless. But if you really think like, oh, we're on this spectrum,

well, we're moving along this spectrum all the time, it allows me, it's like a reminder, like, oh, those little things matter because all the good things that I've achieved in my life, you know, are because of tiny little things that I've achieved in my life are because of tiny little things that I've done with extreme consistency. It really is about the little things, the little things are the big things. Wow.

That's amazing. That's crazy. I had no idea that you relapsed right after the... What's even more humiliating about it was that I had just turned in the manuscript for Finding Ultra and a big part of Finding Ultra is like this journey to sobriety and I was like, you're fucking fraud. Like you have this book that's gonna come out, I couldn't make changes anymore. It had gone to the printer and I was like, you just relapsed and in six or seven months, this book is gonna come out.

And in six or seven months, this book is gonna come out. And so, I mean, that was like, wow, right? Like, just when you think you're the shit, let me remind you that you're a worker among workers. And it was so humbling. I mean, my sober community knew right away. I mean, I called guys right away. This is what happened and tears and the whole thing. But I didn't talk about it publicly for quite a while

because I was like, if I talk about this when this book is coming out, you know, I was like, I was really afraid, you know, until ultimately like when I had the podcast at the appropriate time when I felt comfortable talking about it, I like told the whole story. So it's public knowledge, but yeah, it was like not fine. I mean, it's what's amazing is that you only did it that one time you had your four beers. It didn't lie. It was

an abender or whatever. It didn't go for days or two days. It could have if I was there alone without my family. Right. Yeah, it would have been a different story. I think you had your when did your wife say? I mean, she was devastated. You know, she was devastated. She's like, I cannot, because my family sacrificed a lot for me to do these races and all these things. Like, there was a, there was a price, you know, that, that, that everyone paid for me to be able to kind of do the things that created the foundation for what I get to do the things that created the foundation for what I get to do today. And that was, you know, really tough to walk through with her. It was an abuse of trust. It was scary for her, understandably.

You know, she's like, oh my God, like you really are an alcoholic. Like, you know, it was really difficult. Did she know you when you were? No, we'd be married for what, 20 years? Yeah, we've been together about 20 years. Yeah, so we've been together. We've been together 22 years. Yeah, I'm almost 56.

I met her when I had a year of sobriety. So she didn't even know, she didn't see you in those moments. No, she had never seen that. She didn't know me from before. But she knew me in early variety. Was the endurance kind of like, you kind of, I've heard and they say that usually transfer one addiction for another,

was that like your, was exercise becoming your new addiction? Or like, Well, I think it can become that, you know, if you've got a, like ultra races, there's tons of fully-tatted people who are like recovering heroin addicts. Like, there's something about the endurance world and even more specifically, the ultra endurance world is very alluring for the recovering drug addict or alcoholic because it's an

extreme. Like, recovering addicts and alcoholics are by definition people who have, you know, have this magnetic attraction to extreme experiences, right? And I think, I mean, listen, people that I know and recover are some of the most remarkable people I've ever met. And I think there's something about that disposition, that attraction to those extreme experiences that is about seeking.

It's about, in a weird way, it's a spiritual quest to see what's out there. What is the truth of myself in the world? And drugs and alcohol are a very unhealthy way of trying to reckon with that or answer that question. Endurance sports are a healthier version of that, but yes, you can have a very addictive relationship with those pursuits, and I've been in that place. So it would be very easy for me to say, oh, well, you know, alcohol was, you know, the unhealthy, you know, the unhealthy, you know, version of this compulsion and like running and all these other things that I do, they make me a better person and that's true, but I don't think it's totally,

I think it would be disingenuous to not acknowledge that like, yes, there is like, yeah, I like me, I like that, I like that. So it just means that I have to be much more aware and conscious of what that relationship looks like, and where it sits in the pecking order of priorities in my life, and that relapse experience was a result of those priorities being out of whack, right? I had an unhealthy preoccupation with that pursuit at that time.

And now for me, it's much more about joy and community. But I think in the early years when I was first starting to train, it wasn't like, okay, I become this endurance athlete in my 40s, I wasn't looking to win races or be a competitive athlete. I was very confused about my life. I had put so much into being this lawyer and then I had this, you know, reckoning with drugs and alcohol. Drought too? Well, a little bit, but it was really mostly almost entirely alcohol. And I had 10 years of sobriety and I'd grown a lot, but I also wasn't really happy with this career path that I had chosen, but really confused. I invested so much in it. What else can I do?

I don't know what else to do. I was having like an existential crisis. I'm 40 years old. Like 40, you'll do that. Like what am I doing with my life? Totally. This feels wrong. But like here I am.

Like I, this, my whole life is based on this. Like what am I going to do? And, um, and that kind of collided with this health scare that I had. I was 50 pounds overweight and just a lot of those addictive tendencies were then placed on food. And I was an emotional eater and kind of a fast food addict. And you know, without epiphany kind of made some serious lifestyle changes that revitalized me and energized me enough to reconnect with

the things that brought me joy as a young person, which is movement. I got back in the pool and I started running for the first time and it really made me happy. And then the ultra endurance thing, there's something about being in an elevated heart rate state and a sense of low grade discomfort over an extended period of time that really deeply connects you with the truth of who you know, like low grade discomfort over an extended period of time that really

deeply connects you with the truth of who you are. Like, you can't escape yourself. Like, you have to reckon with it. And all that time alone on trails and on the bike, I needed that space to really meditate on my life and what I was doing and how I'm going to answer these questions. And it was really soothing for that. Like it really helped me. And it's not like here's the answer and this is what you need to do, but it felt like

the way forward to me, like in a very, you know, kind of way that would be difficult to describe in words. Just like this is, I know I'm supposed to do this and this feels right and I feel like it's healing in some regard. And so that was really why I was pursuing it and it led to all these other things, but it was mostly like a spiritual quest. Like, I don't have drugs and alcohol anymore. And yeah, I meditate and I eat right and do all these things, but like this thing, this thing is teaching me more about who I am and what I'm capable of than

any other thing that I've found. So between 31 and 40, were you still a lawyer? Did you still practice? When did you quit law? Yeah. I mean, I, so when I got, you know, like a couple years in a sobriety, I was like out of the big law firm thing. And then I was a solo practitioner. And then I had a, like I would do little law firm stuff. I had a couple partners and then I went solo again and then I had one partner and I was doing some fun stuff.

Like I was an entertainment transactional lawyer working in like independent films and getting to work with cool artists on, you know, on their projects and stuff like that. But I wasn't making very much money. And I was getting more and more interested in these other things that I was doing, this, you know, the ultra endurance and all of that. So it was a slow kind of phasing out of the law as I got more interested in these other pursuits.

But that resulted in a pretty protracted number of years of financial difficulty. Believing that this could lead to something else, even though that's somewhat delusional, like as a 40 plus year old person, like first of all, there's, you don't make money doing that, like forget it. I don't know. All I knew was like, I need to keep doing this. And this will, like, like the universe will provide. And ultimately, the universe did provide. It just didn't provide on my timeline. And it was really hard. We had cars repossessed and like went through

like we weathered a lot of financial difficulty. That was, yeah, another like level of like humility and faith. Because you had, so you, because the only money you were making a little bit here and there was just doing some law on the side, but how did you, so you just kind of took a leap that this would work out for you? Sort of, yeah, it's crazy.

I don't know that I would recommend it to anybody. I mean, the truth is, yeah, then I got this, there were a couple little mile posts along the way. Like CNN, after I did well in Ultraman, I got some press. There was a little bit of press because, oh, wait, this guy's like 44 or 43, and he's killing it in these races,

and he doesn't eat animal products. Like, how does that work? So people were curious about that story. You were doing a story in that way. Yeah, I mean, now there's tons of plant-based athletes, but at the time, I wasn't the only one. And there were athletes that are better than me and their respective disciplines. But what are you over 40 doing it?

I've never run, I've never done other things. Yeah, I mean, it was like a unique assemblage of all of those little, and the addiction piece and all of that that made for a story that people be interested in Including CNN's like Sanjay Gupta came to my house and did a story so I was like Like Sanjay like Sanjay Gupta is not coming to my house when I'm a lawyer Like and then like I wrote a blog for like that they are like, oh, this is cool. Want it? You know, why don't you write a little thing about your story for CNN.com?

And I did that. And it got so much traffic, they put it on the homepage and it was like the number one shared story. So I was like, there's something here, like, and then the response to that, like I just got flooded with emails and people telling me their story. It was very emotional. And I was like, there's something here. Like, I don't know how to like provide for my family with this,

but it would feel like a betrayal to just go get a job. Right, and not pursue that. And I don't mean that in like a flippant way. Like, I was trying my best to figure out ways to put food on the table when it was hard. And it's not like we ever starved or anything like that. But we had to really cut back and we almost lost our house. And we paid a heavy price, that commitment to doing this.

And it was really Julie. I had plenty of moments where my faith was beyond tested. And I was like, this is ridiculous. I'm going to go get a job. And Julie would be like, no, there's no way. We're in it for the long haul. I believe in you. This is your blueprint. way. Like we're in it, you know, for the long haul, like I believe in you, like this is,

this is your blueprint. Like this is, we, the, the way, the way out of this is through it. Like you have to just continue to pursue this. So she's super supportive. And I, you know, you, and I would think like, oh, somebody you'll call and ask me to speak somewhere. So there wasn't a lot with it a lot. You know, and, but ultimately, I, and then I got the, and then I got this book deal, and I got a nice advance for a first time author, but like advances are spread out.

It was a two-year period. And I've got a bunch of kids, and it doesn't come out to very much in the end. But it's like, OK, well, that maybe will set me up to do other things. And it was just every day, like, okay, how are we going to get through today? Like, what do we have? What do we need? And just really surfing it. And I think the lesson in it beyond the faith piece was learning how to be, and

Julie taught me this, how to be completely neutral and not freak out. I remember we had the repo guy came to take my truck away. And Julie goes out into the yard and greets him and was like, hey, how's it going? Would you want to come in? You want some tea? Like, let me make you, like, she was like, and he was so freaked out, because he used to people losing their shit.

No kidding. He has a worse job, like, he's gonna come and take people's cars away. I mean, we knew we hadn't paid the thing in a while, like, you know, it was inevitable. And what happened to you kind of like tea? He still took the car away, but I think there's, it's like,

there was no denigration of dignity. It's like, this, okay, this is happening, but this doesn't mean that I'm a bad person or, you know, there's no, like, hit to my self-esteem as a result of that because we're doing this other thing, you know. And I wish I could tell you that I couldn't have it that I was like losing my shit, right? She's like, no, like that you have control over how you respond to these external events. And you can either allow them to rob you of your, you know, emotional tether. Or you can handle it with with grace.

And I think there's something really amazing about that. It's as your wife doing that. Yeah, yeah. That's incredible. And it like, I think what we went through would have blown up most marriages, but it really brought us closer together. Did she work at all or do anything to make money?

Or you were doing whatever we could to make money. Yeah, little things here and there and she would cook for yoga retreats and things like that. And you know, we were able to just always kind of just get by. Yeah. That isn't that is unbelievable. The repo story is amazing. That's crazy. So then then you did all the ultra stuff. And then did you ever, like your book became a massive seller, right? Not really. I feel like it was a New York Times best seller. No, it wasn't. It wasn't.

It keeps like getting public, like people keep saying it was a New York Times but it was not a New York Times best seller. It came out in May of 2012 and like, like people in the endurance world, some of those people knew who I was, but I didn't have a big public profile. How did I know, though? I wasn't an endurance athlete.

I mean, did you know about it in 2012? I read it, I think I knew about in 2014, 15, like seven years ago, like a lot of time ago. So it came out, it did fine when it first came out, and I did everything in my, I knew like, I made like pushing that book out into the world like my job because I was like this has to work because I have I need to like I'm trying to create this news. I don't even know what it will be but so I really you know worked over time to like I would do any Radio interview and like you know I did as much media as would come my way for that

and the book sold fine. And my copies, is it actually? I mean, out of the gate. No, and yeah, I mean, early on, like, I don't know, maybe, I think maybe sold like, like, it had sold like 5,000 copies, like in the first couple of weeks or something like that. Like, okay, to date or it, you know. And so what happened was it just slowly built like a word of mouth thing and it like now it's 10,

it's 10 years later and it sells every year more than it did the year before. And that's the thing I'm most proud of. Like everybody wants to make the New York Times bestseller list. I didn't make the New York Times bestseller list but it's become a perennial bestseller. And it can, and it's, the podcast is a big part of that because the audience for that gets people

interested in the other things that I've done. But the fact that it's still being discovered, so I don't know how many copies it sold now. Not like a million. I mean, it does good. Right. It definitely does well. But that's why I thought it was the best time of the year, time's best seller. But also with these ultra-marathons, correct me from wrong, because I follow a couple

people, we have a mutual friend. And like when he does these ultra-marathons or these 100-mileers, there's like a caravan of people that are like caring for you. It's not expensive, like to pay for these people in a van. And it looks like it's a whole production. Each person has like their own mini village following you through. Doesn't that? Yeah, I mean, it depends on the type of event. But yeah, it can be.

I mean, the ultimate race that I've done is expensive. I mean, you get your buddies or you get people to volunteer to do for you. It's not like you're paying. I mean, maybe people pay them. I don't know. Could you have put more like it? You're paying. You're paying. It's a team sport.

Like, I think it's an individual sport. It's not. Nobody, you know, can do those races without a lot of support. And in the case of Ultraman, yeah, they don't even, like so the Ultraman is a double Iron Man race, which over the course of three days, you circum, they don't even like so the Ultraman is a double-iron man race Which over the course of three days you circumnavigate the entire big island of Hawaii and each Ultraman is a Ultraman it's a it's a triathlon. It's a three-day stage race triathlon and

Over the course of the three days you go all the way around the big island of Hawaii Which is a big fucking island. It's huge. Is that different than running a hundred mile run? Well, that would be an ultra marathon. An ultra marathon. Every race is different. This specific race, which was the race that I specialized in.

The first day is a 6.2 mile swim and a 90 mile bike. And the second day is 171 miles on the bike. And the third day is a 52.4 mile run, a double marathon run. And it's a small race, there's only 35 individuals. And each competitor is responsible for bringing their own crew. So you typically have a van that kind of follows you. And in that van are two or three people

and the van is filled with ice and food and backup parts for your bike and everything that you might need because you're sleeping in different places on those nights because you finish the day, you go to sleep, you wake up the next day, you start the next stage. And it's really hard work.

Like I have to navigate, make sure you don't make a wrong turn. Whoops. Oh my gosh. Oh, look what is your friend. Oh, it's Darren. You should answer it. I should answer it. Should I?

Yeah. Darren, I'm doing a podcast with Rich Rural right now. We're in the middle of the podcast and she didn't turn her ringer off. I did turn it off. I don't know how this happened. I don't know. I'm putting you on speaker. Say hi. Say hi. Dude. Literally in the middle of recording. We're literally recording it right now while you're gapping. You did. That is so funny. Okay, I'll call you after. Goodbye.

Darren always stealing my fire. How did that even happen? Oh my god, do you know who else just called me? Well, it was ringing before. And I thought when they the other person called, I pressed, I guess, when I would have I put the ringer on. It's Joe DeSanna, your other. Oh, yeah Oh, my God, that is too funny. He's so amazing. He's so, I thought he was crazy. You're just crazy. He's crazy, too.

Joe's done, Joe. It's like Joe's endurance resume is off the rails. Oh, it's more intense than you. Oh, way more, way more. Well, back then, I mean, maybe, maybe. I mean, he doesn't compete like you did, but he went on a streak where he was just a maniac and he did a lot of crazy shit.

But I feel like you're the same. So, I feel like I'm a little more grounded, maybe. Maybe now you are. Maybe now you are. Because, well, things also, you, I think what makes you so unique is that it's all the pieces put together, right? Like it's the vegan part that was at the time, even though you think a lot of people are doing that. Not that many vegan ultra-man's out there, ultra-winners.

You never did it before. That's very inspirational. You're kind of like you're talking about those two guys on your podcast, those heroes. They're very inspirational. That's what you represent, I think, to a lot of people. Because they think, well, this guy, he was an alcoholic and look what he did. He wasn't even a runner and look what he did.

You know what I mean? So you provide so much inspiration, which is, I think, part of why you're successful, because people really do look at you like that, and it's real. Like, you actually did overcome it. It's not bullshit. Yeah, I mean, I appreciate that.

Thanks. I'm learning to just like say thank you when people say those things. Well, it's because I want it, like my instinct is like to tell you all the reasons why that's wrong. But anyway, but the thing, I think the thing is it's,

I don't consider myself to be particularly gifted or talented as an athlete, but I do, like I said earlier, like I know how to push myself, I know how to suffer, I know how to work, and endurance is a great vehicle for those traits, like it will take you far. So I think, if there's anything about the story, it's more aspirational than inspirational. Kobe Bryant is inspirational. Like, you can't just be Kobe Bryant, but I think that because, you know, starting at it 40 and all of that, even though I have this background in swimming

and there's other unique aspects of my story, again, it goes back to like, can you see some part of yourself in this person? And I think that's powerful. And that's why it's always important for me in the podcast to try to find examples of that for other people because I look to people like that when I was trying to figure all this stuff out

and it was powerful. But you said something that Kobe would be the first to tell you, it was his grinding work ethic. Like he did not stop. It wasn't right. Right. So at what point is it talent versus just like you're in your ability, just to push yourself and just keep on working for our back?

Well, of course, it's always a combination of both of those things. But I think what's great about like podcasts and things like that is when you get to hear somebody's full story because we all look at, we look at people who are higher achievers in whatever category and you just think, well, they came out of the womb that way. And when they tell their whole story, you realize like, they're just humans like all of us, right? Like they did this and this happened to them and they made this decision and that's what led to that, et cetera. But Darren, just interrupted because you were on a roll.

You were talking about when you were talking about when you drank. Well, first, I don't think you told me that again. Oh, it's but the crewing thing. About the crewing of your ultra man and like how you are like how you have a truck and you have ice and food and people and hell. Yeah, and they're like feeding you and like, you know, making sure that you're eating because you don't want to eat. You get in these weird, you know, like as healthy as this person needs, it's like it's

a full on. It's a very intense job. And so to be a crew member for any Ultramarathon race or any of these things is a very selfless act. And it's kind of part of the beautiful ethos of those communities. Like you're not gaining into Ultramarathon. Like you have to do it because you love doing it. It's a very grassroots, like community-based kind of culture, subculture.

And part of that is, like, oh, if you, you know, if you have participated in a race, then it's sort of expected that at some point you're going to give back and crew for somebody else. I'm going back to Ultraman in a couple or in November to crew for another guy. I never crew the race. And I feel like not only am I friends with a guy who's going to be competing, but like, yeah, I should crew. Like that race gave me so much. Like, I need to give back.

That's part of the spirit of that whole kind of world. Would you be able to do one now? Would you train one now? Not the second, not in your broken socks, but maybe. If you trained for one, would you be able to do something? I don't know, maybe. I mean, the last big race I did was in 2017 in Sweden, but. What was that? Now, that was the Otillo Swim Run World Championships, which is like this crazy race

where you... It's a 70, I think it's 70 kilometers, and it takes place in the archipelago of islands off the coast of Stockholm. And what you do is you swim and run across this string of islands, like all day long. So you're traversing, I think, like, 35, 30 plus islands. So, and you do the whole thing in, like, a modified wetsuit with your running shoes on. So you're swimming with your shoes on. And then you're climbing up these rocks and running across these islands in your wetsuit. And then you're jumping back in the freezing water

and doing all day. So it's pretty cool actually. It's a pretty cool race. Oh, I saw what happened in it. Did you do well in it? Did you do it? I mean, I did fine. We were like middle of the pack.

You do it and you do it in teams of two. So you do it as a tandem and you're not allowed to be more than like, I think three meters separated from your partner at any time And I did it with my coach Oh my gosh Which is cool, so but that was so that was five years ago. I mean the thing is the truth is Could I? I'm yeah, I could but it's really more about like is that where I

Want to invest my time and energy and is where I want to invest my time and energy and is that the best use of my time and energy? And right now, it really isn't. Like I get out and train pretty much every day. What do you do now? I mean, I swim and run and bike, I've got some lower back stuff that I'm working through, but I stay connected to it.

But for me, the motivation is like, what am I doing today that can have the most meaningful positive impact on other people? Every once in a while, doing a race serves that. Like, it's cool. Like to be like, I'm going to be 56. Like, if I can go out and do something crazy, like, that shows people like that you should recalibrate your relationship with age, et cetera. But in truth, on a daily basis, like I've got teenagers and they need my attention and I'm running this business and you know, I can host a podcast and reach hundreds of thousands of people with something very meaningful or I can be out of my bike all day training. And that sort of feels indulgent to me at this point. So it's not a function of whether I can or can't.

It's whether it's the right choice. And tell me there's something not. So does that mean, what is the trait, who tell me what, what is the training schedule when you are training? So we get an idea of how rigorous it really is. I mean, it depends on what your goal is. Like, if you want to just finish or you want to like be competitive. Like you, what did you do?

I mean, when I was at the peak of that, you know, really doing it, it got to, I think, about 25, 26 hours a week. So it's kind of like a job, you know. And then when you're not doing it, you're recovering and you're doing all this other stuff outside of the actual training itself to set you up for success. You got to get the sleep and the nutrition and just like you're just thinking about it and doing it kind of all the time. And then you're exhausted all that you're really tired a lot, you know. So you don't have as much energy for other things in your life that are important.

So it's not a sustainable model for living. It's okay. And I'm not a big proponent of balance, like living a balanced life. Like I'm not crazy about that whole conversation. But the truth is, you have to make sure that the values that are important to you in life are always being serviced. Maybe not in strict proportion every single day, but over the period of months

or whatever, like those things have to be tended to, like anything else. And so if you're going to be out of balance because you're hyper focused on achieving a goal or something like that, that pendulum has to swing back to neutral or to the other side at some point. And at this phase in my life, like it doesn't feel like the right decision for me to be out of whack in that way. So you trained though in low intensity the whole time, right? Because that's a lot of like aerobic training.

Yeah. The more fit you are, though, like that like that lower heart rate zone training becomes more strenuous than you think. When you start out, it isn't. It's definitely, you know, it adds up. You probably have to kind of hold yourself back from going faster or doing more, right? Because it's harder sometimes at the beginning. At the beginning.

Right. At the beginning. Yeah. There's a whole education about how to do that correctly. I know. And I think a lot of people, I feel like there's a cool conversation happening around that right now, but I think most people who are time crunched and just want to be fit and gotten run or ride their bike or whatever, they're either going too hard to develop their

aerobic capacity and improve that kind of foundation upon which true fitness and performance is built, but they're not going hard enough to really develop the strength and the speed and the acceleration that an anaerobic athlete requires. So for ultra endurance, you're going to spend most of your time in that lower Z1, Z2 heart rate zone and then choose your tempo moments judiciously. But most of it is in, yeah, kind of like that, more conversational pace of exertion. So, would that mean, I think, I think when was it your friend? Is that Peter Tio talks all about this mitochondrial density? Yeah, density, yes, and fat for fuel and all that.

But what would be a pace that you would run at? Would it be like a five? I'm just trying to think of treadmill to, do you have a run on a treadmill or God for no reason? Not very often. I mean, I think the way I would say it is this. So, zone two is the zone in which or a pace at which you are really cultivating your body's ability to use fat as fuel and that is an energy source that is inexhaustible.

Most people though, when they first start doing this, this will realize that any exertion whatsoever will exceed their zone two capacity and they get frustrated because it takes a long time to really broaden and develop that zone two kind of pace into the foundation upon which the house of endurance is built. It could take years, you need a multi-year plan. So for example, when I first got into this stuff, my zone to heart rate zone would be like 135 to 145. So my heart rate could not exceed 145 beats per minute, otherwise I'm getting into zone three and beyond. And at that time, I don't think I could run faster than 10 minutes per mile without going

overboard. But at my peak fitness, I could run 715 pace without going over the 145 heart. So you get faster by going slower is the most simplistic way of explaining it. That's so fast. And because what happens when you develop that zone-to-capacity is you are developing a tremendous efficiency in that particular movement and that efficiency is born out of movement and that efficiency is born out of a greater mitochondrial density, your ability to metabolize fat for fuel and utilize oxygen to its maximum effect. Okay, but that's like you're running, that's fast to run at the seven minute. Right, so when you look at like Elliott Keppchoghe, you just broke the world record for the marathon

in Berlin the other week. Some crazy percentage of his training is done in zone one and zone two. Something like 77% of his training is done at that very low intensity pace, but Elliott Keptchogi can probably run like 545 miles at like a really low heart hurry. So you think, oh, you think he's out walking. Like, no, but he's so good. So when you get to the elite level, like their zone two is faster than, you know, 99.9% of people can run at max capacity. Oh my God. Who's that other guy, Dean? What's his last name, Dean? Carnazus.. Yeah, what is he going to do in Ultraman? Yeah, he was the guy responsible for really popularizing Ultramarathons because he wrote

a book called Ultramarathon Man. And that was the first time anyone had kind of mainstreamed this weird subculture of people who were running crazy distances because at the time people just thought, well, Marathon is the ultimate distance. Nobody can run further than that. He wrote this book about like these hundred mile plus races and it blew everyone's mind. And really I think created an intrigue around that world because even when I started, like, you know, you go, these ultra-marathon's like, it's just like a bunch of people camping

in a tent that I before and then they go do the race for fun, and it's eagerness, and have a beer. And now like they sell out and there's like, you know, there's like big races with crowds of people and like a lot of live stream coverage and stuff like that that you know is pretty new, but it all began with like Dean's book. So you're not an ultra marathon or you're an ultra like triathlete.

Yeah, like more of a multi sport. Multi sport. But did you ever do an ultra marathon? Not just, no. Like everything I've done have been multi sport things. I mean, an ultra man the third day is a 52 mile run. Right, which is no joke. Yeah, obviously.

But I've never done a 100 mile run. So like, so today's, you know, fast forwarding. What's your day like, like your day in the life now? Like how many hours do you work out? Do you only work out like every day? Is it, what do you eat? Yeah, I mean, today I was going to get up and run and Julie had, uh, I wasn't feeling well, I showed a sore throat and so I was like, my workout went out the window and I had to get my kid ready for school and, you know, all it to make breakfast and do all of that. So, it's like, I don't always-

Can you go after the breakfast or? Well, then I had to go get a bunch of stuff done and then I had to come and see you. So we'll see, maybe after this, I'll figure something out. But like, yeah, so typically though, it would, I try to get out for a couple hours every morning and morning is like when I like to train.

And two hours, you said? Yeah, I mean during the week and then on the weekends, I'll do like a longer ride and a longer run. But when you say like you do two hours of running or you split it up into different. I mean right now I haven't been running very much because of lower back stuff. I'm just starting to get kind of back into it. So if I was running right now, I'd probably go out for an hour like a zone two run and I'd go out on my bike for probably, I don't know, two hours. You don't split it up like I'll do an hour now, they'll do an hour later. No, because I got to get it done. And then like I have a, like, I got to like get to work

and do, you know, like what everyone else has to do. Like, like, like, like, the bills paid. Exactly. Then do you, like, what, what about supplementation food? Like, give me it. Like, what do you eat now? I know obviously you're vegan. Yeah. I mean, I'm whole food plant-based. So that means that I try to eat, you know, I eat entirely plant-based diet, but I try to eat, you know, whole foods close to their natural state. So not a big fan of like a lot of the processed foods that are out there. When you say vegan, it could mean potato chips and Oreos. That's a big difference from eating a whole food plant-based diet.

I think it's interesting when I first started eating a plant-based diet, there weren't a lot of meat and dairy analog foods and the ones that did exist didn't taste good anyway. So, you know, I came up like learning how to like make really healthy stuff and make that like, you know, the foundation of my nutrition. Like, like, tell me some examples because I find it very, I know you're going to say, you don't need as much protein as people think and blah blah blah. But what do you do for protein? Why do you care? Why is that important to you?

What do you do? What what what's behind that question? I wish part of the protein part. Yeah, like why is the leading question about protein? I was gonna say I feel like that's what the first question every vegan will get from a person who's not vegan like what do you do about protein? I think it's like a it's become like kind of synonymous with just I'm a vegan. Like doesn't everybody ask you what you do about protein? Right. And why do you think they ask that question? Because we're so used to eating so much.

Like for example, I don't feel satiated unless I have quote unquote like protein, real protein in my opinion. What's real protein? I knew that was. I knew you were going to say that. Like fish, I'm not a big meat eater at all, but I do eat a lot of fish, eggs, stuff like that that I feel is like a complete protein.

And I don't feel like broccoli or I don't feel like I get enough protein from just having, I guess you can combine. Why is this important? Why is protein? Why? I feel it's important because I think it's number one, it's what people have, I've been trained to believe, but I do feel that if I don't eat, like I work out also a lot, but if I don't eat enough protein, I get nauseous. And if I'm working out, and it's like a heavy day of working out or moving a lot, I do

feel a difference. And so if I have like an egg, let's say eggs or salmon or whatever, it does give me that spike that I feel that I need to be feel satiated. And what does protein do? What is the purpose of protein? It's to help build muscle and to make you feel I mean, it's it's it helps. It's like a I feel Whose podcast is it anyway? I just feel that I feel that it's Something that's essential to my diet in order to feel stationary to help build the muscle, to feel all the different minerals and

vitamins that are in some of these things that maybe you're not necessarily getting in a big way. Right, well, vitamins and minerals are not protein. I know that. I'll take this, I'll, one last question and then I'll answer. Okay, okay, okay. What is protein?

Meenow acids. Right. So protein is built on amino acids, right? There are a number of amino acids, something like, what, how many are there? So many. 13, I think. I think there's more than that., I think. I think it is. I know there's more than that.

I should know. I think there's 28. 20, something like that. You can look it up. Should I check? Okay. Okay. Okay.

20. 20, I don't know. 20 amino acids. 20 amino acids, okay. The majority of these amino acids can be synthesized by the body itself. The essential amino acids are called essential amino acids because we cannot synthesize them ourselves. We need to get them externally.

We get them from foods that we eat. Amino acids are the building blocks of protein and amino acids proliferate in every food that we eat. So it's not that we need protein to build muscle mass, we need an assemblage of amino acids. When we eat the protein, we break it down into those amino acids anyway, right? Plant foods, just like any food, have amino acids in them. have amino acids in them. Everything has amino acids in them. I've just found that this weird emphasis on protein is just highly misplaced the subcession with protein.

It's the subcession protein. This idea that has been pushed by food company marketing departments that have us believing that, you know, if we don't have a protein smoothie upon waking in the morning that we're not going to be able to breathe air into our lungs. And I've just never heard of anyone going to the doctor because they have a protein deficiency. Like it's not a thing. It's not. And that's not to say that protein is an important, it's super important, right?

And as an athlete, like, I want to make sure that I'm meeting my body's protein needs. And all I can tell you from many, many years of experience and pushing myself to places most people, you know, never will is that I've never had a problem building lean muscle mass, recovering from difficult workouts, and being strong, and I'm turning 56, and I'm at an age now where protein intake actually becomes more important as you age, and you know, like sort of muscle denigration becomes more of a thing. So I'm probably more conscious of it now than I was when I was doing all these crazy races, but it's really just never been an issue. And the fact that people are so obsessed with it is kind of hilarious and confusing to me, particularly in light of the fact that we never talk about fiber. People are not protein deficient. Most people are eating too much protein because of the protein.

Right. There's so much meat and dairy and our, you know, most people's plates three times a day. And actually, something, some crazy percentage of people, like between 70 and 90 percent of people are highly fiber deficient, which is impairing their gut microbiome and making it more difficult for their body to absorb micronutrients, et cetera. There's a whole cascade of like negative, deleterious effects because of our fiber deficiency. But nobody's like, where do you get your fiber? Or nobody's, who's telling the carnivore people

like, where are you getting your fiber? Oh, I think it's not so. So anyway, let me just finish this thought. Like, by grazing on a variety of plant foods, and I think variety is really important also for the fiber reasons and the like. I am able to not only meet, but exceed, especially when I'm training, like my dietary protein needs. And it's never impacted like any kind of gains. Like if I go into the gym right now, I've been I've been plant-based for 15 years.

Like I'll put on muscle mass pretty quickly, you know? And I just think that we spent a lot of time thinking about protein and obsessing on protein when there's much more important, like relevant, sort of nutritional questions that we should be grappling with. I get what you're saying. I think it's also a programming thing, right? It's also how you were raised.

Like, I was always raised with like, I'm Jewish, we're always having so much food in front of us, but like, you have to have your chicken. But I'm more about the, I think that I'm psychologically trained to not to maybe think that I'm not satiated or maybe I'm like I'm nutrient, I'm not properly, I don't have the proper nutrients if I don't have the right amount of protein, whatever that amount would be. But that's why I'm actually very curious about people who are vegan because Darren knew of a lot of friends actually who are. Look how fit Darren is. I know it's insane.

And he's the cleanest diet of anybody I know. And the guy is just ridiculously jacked. He is ridiculous. But that's also a lot of this is genetic. And he doesn't, he doesn't work, like he works out every day, but he's not like in the gym all day long. Oh no, he's not. He's 100% true. He's like, he works out for like every day, but he's not like in the gym all day long. Oh, no, he's not. He's 100% true. He's like, he works out for like 30 minutes. Like he's, I know his rocks around a little bit. He used to do this thing, I'm sure you did too, with the, he does the, well, at Laird Hamilton's,

were you doing that whole thing with them? I went there a few times, with not with Darren to do that expy-t stuff. I did not love it. Did you like that? I like it, I still go up there. You still go all the time? Do you go in the pool and lift the. Did you like that? I like it. I still go up there. You still go all the time. Do you go in the pool and lift the weights and do all that?

Are you a big sauna person and cold plunge person? I have a cold plunge at home. I don't have a sauna yet, but I do enjoy that. You do that, okay. But my, I guess my point is, a lot of it's genetics. Like Darren looks that way, maybe because Darren already is genetically conditioned to have that body. Yeah, but look at Darren's brother.

Look at, you know, he is a positive product of his lifestyle. And that guy walks his talk, he doesn't much as anybody you will ever meet. The most I totally agree, but so do you. Yeah, I mean, I think I have like constraints that Darren doesn't have with kids and all kinds of other stuff that make it a little bit different. I mean, we're a little bit different in that regard, but the point being, Darren is not being limited by the fact that he doesn't consume animal protein.

100% not. That's the point. He's exactly, and he's, oh, he's any more barucas than anybody I know. But okay, so give me what you eat. Like, give me it. What, how do you eat your, do you prep this? Or you're in, I do, like, not, I mean, sometimes I just, I get up, I have a little coffee and I'm out the door and I train when I can. And I don't have like, you know, kids stuff in the morning. When I'm feeling hungry, like the best way that I found to start my day is with a green smoothie,

vitamin X smoothie, and that often depends on what's in the fridge, because we have six people living in our house, so I never know what's gonna be in there when I open it up, but generally or typically begins with dark leafy greens, kale, spinach, stuff like that, beets and beets, super important also, endurance boosting, I love beets. Oh, you put beets in your smoothie,

isn't there oxygen intake now? It enhances your body's ability to, yeah, uptake oxygen. Like so it's really good for endurance sports. You know, dark berries, blueberries, blackberries, high and anti-oxidants, chia seeds, flax seeds, hemp seeds for omega-3s, maybe some coconut water. What else would typically go on there?

Maybe some pineapple, I don't know. Some fruit, banana, yeah, of course. And like, either I'll drink that whole thing or I'll drink like part of it, and then I'll thermos the rest and take it with me through the day, and anytime I feel a hunger p of it and then I'll thermos the rest and take it with me through the day and anytime I feel a hunger pang or whatever, I just hit it and that just kind of keeps my energy really high throughout the

day. Lunch, I eat pretty light during the day, so salad is usually what I go to the middle of the day. Dinner, Julie's the cook. Yeah, she's amazing. So you're so lucky. I know you have some cookbooks because it's you you're you're having an easy way of having a vegan life. So if I had someone like Julie in my life, I'd be a vegan all day, but I don't want unfortunately. I think that makes a big difference. But do you think that it takes longer to prepare a plant-based meal than it does for you to cook your salmon and whatever it else. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe.

To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe.

To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe.

To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe. To feel safe.. It does sound like she's an amazing cook though. She is an amazing cook, but also everything that she does and all the recipes in our cookbook are really easy to make. It's all about, like, we're busy. She's got a startup. She's doing a million things.

Everything that she does is stuff she can whip up in like 10 minutes. Okay. She has a couple more elaborate things, or if you're making her cheese and stuff like that, that's a whole different thing. But for the most part, like I would say the vast majority of her recipes and the way that she cooks is like very fast and fluid. Really? I should get the cookbook. So there is this, that's another myth. Like if you're going to be

plant based, oh, you got to like prep to prep everything. And it's a million ingredients. And you've got to batch and prepare meals for the week. And I'm sure there's people that do that. That is not our lifestyle at all. So you're right. Because with Darren, he has the same ball. He puts the baruchas and the shake-on, the shake-on, he mixes it all.

It doesn't sound very fancy. But you need a lot of ingredients, even the salads. You put tons of different vegetables. and the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake- the shake If I just spinach, kale, and some balsamic, and if I have, I'll just shave some carrots in it, or I'll put some lentils in there. Like a trader does, you can get pre-cooked lentils. Just crack them open, put them in there. There's your protein. It's true. I love that.

You can do, there's a lot of simple and run-hacky kind of things that you can do that make it easy. I'm freaking busy. I'm not in the kitchen, like, spending all kinds of time. Like, everything is like this, you know? That's good to know. So, and, you know, for the most part,

if you're eating, the more you're eating these foods close to the natural state, the more your diet is like a popper diet, it's not an expensive diet. Like, yeah, you can get fancy with the chia seeds and the super foods and all that kind of stuff. But the truth of the matter is that the bread and butter of what I eat is like beans and lentils and greens. I don't eat a low carb diet. So, brown rice and a lot of quinoa, which actually quinoa can be a stand-in for rice and you do that with beans. And I eat a lot. So it's like on the satiation point,

I eat huge amounts of food. Huge amounts of food. I'd love to know about, because you reach your satiation point, because these foods are more nutritionally dense and they're so high in fiber that you do get filled up. Like I'm not, you know, I don't go to the fancy,

they eat the tiny little, no way. Like I eat shitloads of food, like I'm hungry. So, I'm like, are you hungry? I can do a snack. That's fine, I ate before I came here. But what I'm saying is like, oh yeah, I'd never feel full, I never feel like, if I'm eating plant-based, I'm gonna be starving all the time.

Like, you're not eating enough then. You're right, you're not eating it. Would you have, so for dinner, would you have for dinner? The same thing. You know, lots of, I mean, a lot of like, you know, like, like for me, I could eat like a giant bowl of like rice and beans and guacamole with like hotung bean pastas, like a very high in protein. So you can have that pasta feeling of eating dinner, which is actually quite low carb and high in protein.

So you get your protein fix, you also feel full when you eat something like that. That would be a go to... Do you eat fruit? A lot of fruit. a go-to. Do you fruit a lot of fruit? Yeah, I'm not afraid of fruit. Yeah, I'm not as fruit. You're not the only one I've eaten fruit. And then I snack on like in my car, I just have like Brazil nuts or barucanuts,

you know, Daring keeps me stopped barucas. A lot of pumpkin seeds for the iron, which when you eat with citrus is like good for keeping your ferrets and levels. Oh, it's like citrus. Yeah, tell me some more stuff like that. I mean, when you combine citrus with a food high in non-heam iron, which is the variety of iron and plant-based foods, The citrus helps with the absorption, basically. And it's also supposed to avoid caffeinated drinks like the tannins and tea and coffee can

interfere with that as well when you're trying to like eat for your iron. Now, what you said you have coffee, so you're not afraid of coffee, you do drink coffee. Yeah, in the morning, I try not to drink it. I'll just keep it to one cup because I can get addictive. Yeah. And I've been off in and I've been on it and like, you know, I think I've a cup of coffee in the morning is fine. So one cup of coffee. I'm not like extreme with it.

So, okay. So then that's how you eat it. I feel like I've covered every... Can I just look at my little... Yeah, of course. I haven't even opened this yet. I talked about your vegan detrating for Aljerman. I love that lower companions by the way. That's such a wonderful word. I've never heard that.

I think we're good here. I think we did it. I've no idea how long you've been on this podcast for like two hours. I'm like, God, I'm so sorry. I can't be forever. Yeah, super fun. You're amazing. I love your podcast. I'm so sorry. I kept you forever. Yeah, super fun. You're amazing. I, first of all, I love your, I love your podcast. I love your story. I've heard just amazing things from Darren. So I'm so happy that I actually got a chance to actually sit down with you finally. So I appreciate this. Well, thank you for the opportunity.

It's a pleasure to talk to you. Thank you for having me. Thank you. We're good people. Fine. Well, I mean, if I want to just not know no ritual in living under a rock, his podcast is incredible. He is the best interviewer. He's so thoughtful.

He listens. You don't interrupt people, which I find to be very. Sometimes I do. Not really. Like I said, if they're going off the rails, then you may be having to hear them back on. But overall, I think it's just, I think you do a great job. Thank you. I appreciate that. Overall, I think it's just, I think you do a great job. Thank you. You're welcome.

I appreciate that. Habits and hustle, time to get it rolling. Stay up on the grind, don't stop. Keep it going. Habits and hustle from nothing in the sum. All out, a host of bio-jent of fuck, Cohen, visionaries, tune in. You can get to know.

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