Habits and Hustle - Episode 206: Why Motivation Is Useless

Episode Date: January 14, 2023

On this week’s solo episode, Jennifer discusses why motivation alone won't get you to where you want to be, why delayed gratification is important to success, and her tips for curbing unhealthy eating habits. She also dives into a back-and-forth with her foil Shanni on what temperature people should set their thermostats to.   Find out Jen’s secret to getting anything you want out of life Join Jen’s new Facebook group! Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. Habits & Hustle Website Habit Nest Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Blazing deals, boundless options. It's Hot Grill Summer at Whole Foods Market from June 14 through July 4. Fire up the grill with quality cuts at the best prices. We're talking animal welfare certified meat. Check out the sales on Bone-In-Rib-I, Beef Cabobs, and New York Strip Steak. Round out your barbecue with plant-based proteins, slice cheese, soft buns, and all the condiments. Plus, sales on fresh strawberries, peaches, and more. Don't forget to pie, either.

Get grilling at Whole Foods Market Terms Apply. When there's a penalty on the field, referees are there to sort it out. When there's an accident on the road, that's where USAA steps in. We help make the claims process easy, so drivers can get back on the road fast. Making the right calls. That's what we're made for. Membership eligibility and product restrictions apply in our subject to change. USAA means United Services Automobile Association and its affiliates.

San Antonio, Texas. We're recording. Oh, hi, everybody. Hello, hello. This is another solo episode brought to you by Habitson Hustle and thank you for joining. Thank you for listening. I appreciate it. This is not really something. It's not my nature to just be blabbing on and on. So I actually, this is my nature to blab on and on. It's not my nature to black on and on on a camera just

As a solo episode. So I'm very happy that I have my foil Shawnee to sit with me give me some encouragement and Just moral support really is what it is. Thank you. I Appreciate that and today we're speaking about motivation and the reason why we're speaking about motivation. And the reason why we're speaking about motivation is I am not a big believer in the word motivation. And the reason why I wanted to bring this topic up is because the first question, a lot of people always ask is, how do I find motivation?

How do I get motivated? You know, and I feel like motivation is a really, really not a great thing to rely on to get you to where you want to be. Because motivation is very much a way, right? Some days were motivated, some hours were motivated, some minutes were motivated, and then we're not. And so to rely on that, and that also goes with, I have to say, a nice sister or brother to motivation is willpower.

Those are both things that you have it sometimes, and then what happens when you don't have it? You know, like, you need to be able to do something even when you don't want to. And so with motivation, I'm never motivated, actually lately, I'm never motivated to work out. Like, I'm never interested in working out because I'm so busy and I can think of a million excuses of why I don't have time and can't do it.

But I don't allow that to happen because I really have gotten used to the byproduct effect, like my mental cognitive state, my focus, and it's just part of who I am and what I do. So if I motivated or not, it doesn't really make a difference, I'm still going to do what I need to do and get the job done. And that is why I think that this is a topic that I wonder why everyone just thinks that they have to like what they do all the time in order to actually do that thing. I think there's like a misconception because there's all that talk about, oh, you're passion, you're love, this, that.

And I think people who have a hard time doing things don't realize that a lot of people have a hard time doing things, but they just build the path. Do it anyway. No, you do it anyway. But you have to build that habit. Of course, it's first you build the habit, but then you do it anyway, even when you don't want to. And the thing is, yeah, you need to have a passion for a hobby, I mean, fine. But a lot of times, in order to have the life that you envision for yourself and also just get things done and self actualize, there's a lot of like shit along the way and that will always be there. That is not fun. And it's not great, but you still do it because it needs to be done. And it's the catalyst for something else to be done or it's a building block for something else.

And it doesn't matter if it's something that you enjoy if the after effects are something you enjoy. And that's how I view it. So when motivation is like this big, hashtag, you know, like motivational Monday, you know, like inspiration, this is the problem, like, yeah, and then what happens after the hour, like when you go to like a Tony Robbins seminar, right?

Super motivating, cause you're all that you get really like, riled up for something and everyone's there and like everyone's like yelling and cheering and it's super exciting. But then what happens when you go home? And I don't know this by the way, I don't know the percentage, so don't quote me on this, but I am curious, what is the percentage of the people

that what happens when after the weekend or the seminar? What's the percentage of people actually maintain when after the weekend or the seminar, what's the percentage of people who actually maintain and actually stay on that path? Or is it a big percentage of people who drop off because that motivation isn't there? I've lots of find out. Yeah, I don't know the percentage.

I'm curious because I find that a lot of these things are super initially motivated and motivating and then they kind of just like wane unless you have another bigger purpose. So I guess the question really is like what is the, what is your bigger purpose? What is your why as why you're doing it? I mean, that to me is how you have sustainable, like, real motivation, or I wouldn't call the, I wouldn't use the word, but I wouldn't say even discipline, discipline is something totally different and we can talk about discipline. I think that what keeps

you doing stuff even when you don't want to is that you have to have a reason why you're doing it. Like, you have to be, you have to have a desire that's so much, so, so, so a part of you that you will do whatever it takes to get there. So I'm going to bring it back to an analogy of like fitness and weight loss because that's my background. Obviously, well, not obviously, but to some, some people know that is no matter how much you, you train somebody and, you know, but to some people know that, is no matter how much you train somebody and you can give people all the tools in the world. But that doesn't mean they're actually going to do any of them unless they actually want to do them, right? Like you can train them, you can cook for them, you can give them all the healthy tips and

tricks and da-da but at the end of the day, it's you. You have to actually want it for yourself to actually execute on those things. So, to me, it's like you have to find your within you, what is like you're going to have the desire and the will to actually do what it is you need to do or you want that thing so badly to actually get the results that you want. But you can't be mad at the results you don't have by the work you did not do. So you want to put in the work with anything even when you're not motivated. Yeah, well, it's like the idea of like success is the ability to delay gratification. You have to really want that success no matter how late the gratification is going to

come. Delayed gratification is another one of these things that I am big, big believer in. I talk about delayed gratification in my book, talk about motivation in my book too. But I feel like delayed gratification is kind of like the thing that is actually not talked about enough, right? Because everything requires a delayed gratification to get to where you need to go. If you're constantly in the moment, you're looking at what you want now versus what you want completely, right? Like, absolutely. Right?

I mean, again, the analogy of fitness and weight loss is huge, right? Yeah, fits so perfectly for this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, fits perfectly for this. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, fits so perfectly for this. Yeah. Yeah, fits perfectly for this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. love food. And if I had my brothers, I, by the way, I don't know if this is politically incorrect to say now because everything is in this world now, but I really believe I'm like a really

fat person living in like a regular size person's body. Oh, yes. Well, I actually, I am a fat kid living in a like normal adults body, but I am like, I'm rounded heart. I'm like, I'm like very robust at heart. And I think, I like think about food 24 hours a day. Like if I'm eating breakfast, I think about when I'm eating lunch, when I'm eating lunch, I'm thinking about when I'm having my snack, when I'm having dinner. But because I know, because I know that this is a truism about me, I've created these, I've created a system around me

where I don't just like gobble everything in sight. Because left to my own devices, I would do this. So that's why it's so important to like know what your triggers are, know what you're like, you're default, like you're default, I should say is, and then reverse engineer, so those things don't happen to you. Because I'm obsessed with food. Blazing deals, boundless options.

It's Hot Grill Summer at Whole Foods Market from June 14 through July 4. Fire up the grill with quality cuts at the best prices. We're talking animal welfare certified meat. Check out the sales on Bone In Rib by Beef Cabobs and New York Strip Steak. Round out your barbecue with plant-based proteins, slice cheese, soft buns, and all the condiments. Plus, sales on fresh strawberries, peaches, and more. Don't forget to pie, either.

Get grilling at Whole Foods Market Terms Apply. So you're winding down with the podcast. Sounds like you have no plans to leave the couch tonight. Nope, you just want to unzip your jeans, slip on a pair of fuzzy slippers, and rip open a bag of skinny pop popcorn, because the only place you're going tonight is the bottom of this bag of popcorn. It's a whole bag kind of night.

It's a whole bag kind of night. Wait, give us examples, because that's so helpful. What are tips and tricks that you use to not gobble food? Well, I gobble food. So for me, because a big part of it for me is about the way I feel, not so much about how I look but how I feel.

Because again, left to my own devices, I can consume and anybody who knows me and who's had any meal with me, would attest to this, a million percent, is that I can consume more food than any human being. I don't care who you are. I don't care how big you are, how small you are. I will eat more than you, no matter what, unless I have ways to kind of, I have a system to create that I don't do it. I just have an exorbitant, I have a huge appetite,

first of all, my appetite is through the roof. So this is where it becomes, here's the, here's the, so it's the system. I'm leaving this, okay, I'm gonna tell you this system, but here's the rub, right, where people don't, this is what people don't talk about, is that the truth

is the more you work out, the more hungry you get. Oh, yes. And cardio makes you starve. But it's a delicate balance, right? Because if you work out, if you work out really intensely, your appetite is even more rap, my appetite is even more ravenous. So it ends up happening. I eat so many more calories and food that I otherwise wouldn't have had if I worked out more at a normal state.

So the real question becomes, is it better to work out at a much more, you know, at a lower state of intensity more often? So then your food, your appetite is more balanced or is it better to work out super intensely and then you're just eating like an animal ferociously. So I'm constantly trying to balance these two things out because of my appetite. Now what I was going to say is, so for, because I love food, what I've done, and part of my system, I actually talk

all about this emigra better boulder, is I eat the same breakfast every day. And the reason why I do that, is because I put that meal on autopilot, so I don't have to think about it. Because left to my own devices, I will overeat, and then I will be eating things that are probably not great for me. And then what happened is that it sets the tone for the rest of the day,

and then I'm just on a downhill spiral. Versus if I eat a really clean, solid, healthy, satiating breakfast, then it's a win, it's a big win. And then I'm much more apt to kind of maintain that for the rest of the day going forward. So just recently, and this is true, just recently I tweaked what that breakfast was. So for the last, God knows how many years I've been been eating I've been eating eggs with a great fruit every day, which was like a great balance of protein. And then I had my my great fruit and my coffee. And then listen to this. I went and got my blood checked and I can see this on my podcast. That's

what I was so confused about. I need to switch it up. And then what happened was I'm a I became I've become allergic right. Right. Right. To that. To eggs. So even though I haven't really felt allergic to it, my blood, my blood coming back says I am allergic to it. So I think my body built up an intolerance to to the eggs. I thought you just went back to it when you said that you've been eating the same one because I knew you told me that you switched it when When you, yes, I remember having this exact conversation asking about the eggs and the grapefruit and then you said you switched it and I was like, oh, are you back to eggs and grapefruit?

So what's the new one? So now I'm very into the shake, the shake, just to kind of get away from the eggs for a while. So what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna have like, I'll be able to go back and forth. So your body can become intolerant, it's just something you eat way too much of. So, I mean, 25 years of being the same breakfast,

you'd think that like, yeah, that's a long time. Even though I guess I didn't feel anything bad from it, which is interesting, but I thought maybe to have some other effects on other things who knows. So now I have a shake, which is banana, spinach. I have chocolate protein, which is banana, spinach. I have chocolate protein powder, ice, almond milk, and that is my breakfast. That's solid.

Super solid. Yeah. But not, you don't wanna, listen, I don't love drinking my calories, to be honest. I like to like, like chew my food, but at least I really enjoy that. And so I've been doing that. So that's one tip, that chew my food. But at least I really enjoy that. And so I've been doing that. So that's one tip, that's one tip.

Another one is don't put yourself in places that you know you're gonna gorge. I mean, putting me in front of a buffet is like the worst thing you can possibly do. It will be the worst thing. You don't wanna see it. I wanna see you at a Vegas buffet. You do not wanna see me at it.

So badly do I wanna see you at a Vegas buffet. Me, you, the to see me at it. So badly do I want to see you at a Vegas book. I'm telling you it's a terrible thing. There's been times when like, or if there's something I really love, like I'm obsessed with carrot cake. And so instead of just having like a one little piece of carrot cake, if it's in front of me, it's gone. So there's another thing I don't necessarily think that's always great for everybody, and that is this idea of like cheat days.

I think cheat days are kind of like really bad for some people. If you know you have an addiction or you know that like you can't control yourself, why would you put yourself in that situation? Because once those floodgates are open, then it's like, it's downhill. Yeah, I don't do cheat days. I hate them because they make me, I have addictions to like pizza and stuff. Oh, I love pizza and french fries. I can. It's a, it's downhill. Yeah, I don't do GDs. I hate them, because they make me, I have addictions to like pizza and stuff. So I can. Oh, I love pizza and french fries.

I can, it's a horrible, slippery slope. Oh, it's beyond. Do you know, I took my kids, I took them bowling yesterday. My little Sydney, she got like a quesadet and french fries and I'm like, this is what happened. I'm like, oh, those french fries look good. I'll have one.

And I got that taste in my mouth. And within 12 seconds, the entire plate of french fries was like inhaled by me. Like, I think she went to the bathroom. She comes back to the bathroom. There was not one french fry left on the plate. Oh. Because I was like, oh my god, like, I don't even,

I like going at a second out of body experience. And I literally go, and it's gone. And so I don't want to even put myself in those situations because it ends up just being really bad." This episode is brought to you by FX's The Bear. The hit series returns with Jeremy Allen White and the Golden Globe winning role of Karmie. He and the team will transform their family sandwich shop into a next level spot, all while being forced to come together in new ways as they confront their past and reckon with who they want to be in the future.

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She, and I think, and I think, not only did she scream me, I think Dylan Tattletail done me or someone did. I don't know. What, you got rotted out? I did. That's brutal. She, I literally, I'm not kidding you with it, within three and a half minutes, those French fries were basically like inhaled.

And that just is one example. I can give you a million examples where I leave most dinners, like, you know, with my, I gotta wear like elastic pants, or like a big baggy sweater, so I can open the first button because I have no ability to kind of control myself.

So I try not to put myself in those situations. That's a trick. And or I eat beforehand. So then I'm not starving when I go somewhere. Smart. We do that for Shabbat dinner. It's my dad always used to tell me that. Like because he always said, don't come to the table hungry,

especially if it's like a family dinner because you're trying to have a conversation too. It was really funny to say that. It's miserable because it's when you came to my dinner at our house. When I came to your house for sure by dinner, you could start. Oh my no, when you're at your aunts from Montreal, they made all those callas. Yes, yes. And I was like, oh, I'm going to have a, it was warm, the calla.

I'm like, oh, I'm going to have one little piece of the calla. I kicked you in. There was like seven callas made. I think I ate six of those seven callas. I went, I kept on going back. Yeah, I'm gonna have one little piece of the chala. I kid you, and there was like seven chalas made. I think I ate six of those seven chalas. I kept on going back. I actually believe that. I remember seeing it. I remember like, I literally remember

how much of the chala you ate. I was like, no, no, no. I love how you say chala. The chala is plural. The chala is plural. A million. That's my problem. So there you go.

I don't know how we started talking about that. Why do we start with this whole thing? It's a, but we're talking about motivation, but then we like, we kind of like took it on a different, we took it down the, the slippery slope of food since this is what happened. And by the way, I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm sure a lot of us have like, you know, food issues or dick or, or like the inability to get out of our own way, I should say it. So that is why it's super important to create these, not roadblocks the wrong word,

but to create these plans and structures around you so that doesn't, so you don't fall. And you know, that so happens to be one of mine. I'm sure you may have another one that maybe that you kind of get in your own way with. And so it's about having some sort of self-awareness and insight on who you are really, like in a real way, not just like bullshit, like yeah, and this way, and that way, but really know yourself to a place where you could be honest. And then you can create a structure or plans around you

so that you don't fall or that so you can kind of be the most productive best version of yourself and get to where you want to be. For me, it's really important for me to feel physically strong, helps me feel mentally strong. It's really important for me to work out regularly because even if I don't like the workout while I'm doing it, the like I said, how I feel afterwards, the sense of focus, cognitive ability, feeling strong, feeling like accomplished, they did it. To me, those are all much, that to me is the win more than anything. So I have to put these other places, these other things in place, so I will do those things.

So eating that breakfast in the morning, that's super solid, that I don't think about and makes me feel like, okay, then I'm setting myself off in a great time, in a great way, will just allow me to kind of, you know, continue the day or continue whatever else I need to get down to be the most productive as that I want to be.

I love that. I always leave a sweater. I know you never think that I get cold, and I generally don't, but in the morning, I am always freezing, and I find that it's hard for me to wake up and get out of bed because I'm so cold, and I would rather stay in my bed. So I always sleep with like a hoodie right next to me,

so then I can put that on, and then I can get out out of bed and when I don't have a hoodie next to me I end up like snoozing my alarm and sleep in for like another hour That's like been one of my like systems that I've had in place for years. I've another Suggestion for you. Please take it or leave it on the heater on like God forbid with you I know you hate the heat or put the alarm away from your bed So it's forcing you to get your ass out of bed. I've done that. I get back into bed.

I swear to God, I've literally done that and I'll just get back into bed. Because it's the cold that keeps me in bed. It's not the tiredness. What's the fricking heater on? By the way, it's too hot. Okay, let me just. I've heard my throat and then it's awful.

You have no idea how this is a back and forth that the two of us. I literally am sitting here shivering, literally shivering in my own home because God forbid I have the thermostat at a place where it's actually warm. She likes it at 75 degrees you guys. I'd be happy with 72.

75 degrees is her preferred temperature. So I think you guys, I think anybody listening to this can understand why I would not appreciate 7575 75 is crazy. So first of all I sleep in 68 or 69. I don't I don't I don't spend my day. You sleep in Yeah, it's because you're supposed to be sleeping at a place that is that's cool. But no one spends that their day operating at that temperature. To people who do. People who don't really do. I don't believe that. 69 is a super normal temperature to exist at. If you want to freeze your ass off, I'm literally sitting here by tea.

Literally chattering. Like I'm like, freezing. Okay? Freezing. I think maybe some guys don't feel it. I don't know what girl likes that cold. I don't know one email. Okay, to be fair, I did put the heater on at 71.

It's not working for some reason. No, first my heat. My heater is broken. Yeah, it's not working. So I have all these little, like, heat. Yeah, many things. What do you call them? Like a little, the little, the little,

I like those, like those portable heaters, like I can call them, like the Dyson one, which is really good. But not radiators. Shoot, what are they called? No, it's a heater. It's called the heater. It's a heat lamp.

No, it's called the heater. It's a heater, but there's a word for it. Space heater. No, but I think it's space heater as an actual brand name. Is it? Like Kleenex? Yeah. I don't think space heater is called a space heater.

So there are like many heaters. Yeah, they're called heaters. Portable heaters. I don't're called heaters, portable heaters. I don't know why she's having a problem with the word heater, because that's what it is. Because like a heater is like, you know, the heater in the house, and you have a little like adorable heater. Okay, which is called heat.

How about this? I'll take any kind of heat. Literally as I'm sitting here doing this podcast, I'll take a fire, I mean freezing. Linda, it's a cool, by the way, Linda, who works with me. But Linda also said, and I repeat, she's wearing always freezing. And I'm wearing a-

Okay, she's also wearing a sweatshirt and a parka and boots and freezing over there, chattering her teeth as well, like me. What, Dylan, Dylan, what are you feeling right now? Are you cold, Dylan? What, what, what, what? See, Dylan said hot hot hot hot. Sorry, what was that?

Dylan said hot, and he's a small person. He's a small, like human. but what you people don't know about Dylan is that he is adverse to like Dylan wears shorts in the winner, okay? He does never he doesn't own a pair of pants. It's a fight with their California. It's a LA winner. This is the Canadian winner. This is, by the way, true, but I will say this. It has been unusual. The funniest episode. Okay, it's been unusually cold in California for like three weeks or eight.

It's been freezing every day. It's been freezing every day. It's been freezing every day. It was not, okay. It was, it was literally an degree. Okay, for a day, okay, listen, okay. I promise you, if you are watching this and not listening, I promise you, okay. My promise you you can if you are watching this and not listening I promise you okay my hand are

Isacles my lips are technically right now. They're actually blue. Okay, but they're always blue her lips are always blue you guys This is not like I didn't freeze her I'm gonna be ruining her equipment god forbid if it's if it's Over 70 over heat while I'm working. This is like you've no idea. She wants to live it. You should get like you should live in one of those freezers.

When it's 75 outside we come in and we put on the AC to 68. No one does. Yes, people don't want it. 75. Not when it's actually freezing cold. Okay, listen. Listen, do you live in like a meat locker?

Like is your like do you actually live in a meat locker? Do you live in a butcher locker? Like, do you actually live in a meat locker? Do you live in a butcher's home? Okay, you would, okay, so it's funny because if you think I like to keep things cold, you would die in my dad's room. It's for reason. How cool. Literally in the 50s, I kid you not.

It's legitimate. And he said he recently, he bumped it up to early 60s or whatever. And I'm like, oh wow, look at you improving. It's an ice box, his room is an ice box. Well, yours is a meat locker. No, no, here's an actual ice. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no great. Okay. But not at night when it's dark and dank, and like there's no, like, dark and, it's dark right now in it's raining.

It's like raining, it's been raining, because like a dank meme. It feels like very like, like, moist and humid. Did you mean damp? Danken damp, very similar. Are they? Yeah, the same thing. Wait, I've only ever heard of dank in the like slang way of like, oh, that's so dank.

Like, you know what I mean? It's dank, you know. Oh my god, like, dank memes, like super cool, like, dank, like dope, dank. I've no idea. That is so funny. I'm too old for you. Okay.

The point is, I don't know what she's talking about. The point is, we like 16 to 17. 16 to 17 is great. This is so boring for anybody who's listening to this. I think that they're actually gonna love this. Oh, I don't know. I think it's like, we're gonna get people who either are really team you on this or really team me and they're going to be like aggressive about it.

Join the Facebook group to discuss it, please. Yeah, let's know what temperature you like to live in my grade in. That would be amazing. This summer, PXU Energy is back. The ultimate summer path, starting 50% off energy charges all summer. Everybody's on it for automatic energy savings. Plus free energy on the hottest day. Don't you see it?

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Getting back to my point of motivation, you know, don't rely on it. That's it. Bye. I'm trying to face the group, thanks. Hope you enjoyed this episode. I'm Heather Monahan, host of Creating Confidence, a part of the YAP Media Network,

the number one business and self-improvement podcast network. Okay, so I want to tell you a little bit about my show. We are all about elevating your confidence to its highest level ever and taking your business right there with you. Don't believe me, I'm gonna go ahead and share some of the reviews of the show so you can believe my listeners.

I have been a long time fan of Heather's, no matter what phase of life I of the show, so you can believe my listeners. I have been a longtime fan of Heather's, no matter what phase of life I find myself in, Heather seems to always have the perfect gems of wisdom that not only inspire, but motivate me into action. Her experience and personality are unmatched and I love her go-getter attitude. This show has become a staple in my life.

I recommend it to anyone looking to elevate their confidence and reach that next level. Thank you! I recently got to hear Heather at a live podcast taping with her and Tracy Hayes, and I immediately subscribed to this podcast. It has not disappointed, and I cannot wait to listen to as many as I can, as quick as I can. Thank you, Heather, for helping us build confidence and bring so much value to the space.

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