Habits and Hustle - Episode 217: Mark Manson - How to Stop Giving a F*ck

Episode Date: February 21, 2023

Mark Manson is the 3x NYT Bestselling Author of "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a F*ck". After navigating life as a pick-up artist, a blogger, and eventually securing his legacy as one of the most successful authors and independent publishers in self-help and motivation, now landing a movie deal with Universal, Mark settles in with Jen to discuss it all. He warns about the good and the bad that can come from relying on other's wisdom in the "self-help space", as well as approaching how others like, Tony Robbins, Et al. make their success and how it falls on the consumer to be careful in utilizing the tools of these speakers/authors. Mark explains portions of his life wherein sometimes 10 guys would pay him thousands to watch him flirt with women and coach them, to acquiring an audience through his blog, and finally writing one the best-selling books in self-help history at nearly 15 million copies sold and counting. On top of all of that, wouldn't you know, he co-authored Will Smith's autobiography from a couple years ago called "Will" which of course, prompted a conversation around the actor and the infamous "slap". Mark is quick, witty, charming, and open to every part of his life no matter how past it may be. Maybe you've read one of his book, but have never known who he really is. Perhaps you've been looking for a more blunt approach to self-help and this is where you'll find it. Regardless, he's a great interview and this is a fun episode! Don't miss it! Jen's Bigger, Better, Bolder Mastermind starts in March! Apply now to be considered. Join Jen’s new Facebook group! Find out Jen’s secret to getting anything you want out of life Follow Jennifer: Instagram Facebook Twitter Jennifer’s Website Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I got his Tony Robbins, you're listening to Habitson Hussle, crush it. Today on the podcast, we have Mark Manson. He is a three time New York Times bestselling author. His most well-known book is The Settle Art of Not Giving a Fuck, which probably has been the highest-selling book in its decade, almost selling 20 million copies. He also runs one of the largest personal growth websites in the world, more than 15 million

yearly readers and a half a million subscribers, making him one of the largest and most successful independent publishers in the world. This was such an amazing podcast episode you guys. It was, first of all, I just really, really like Mark. He's super real, very down to earth. We covered so much stuff on this podcast. Universal made a movie out of the books that I'm not giving a fuck with him. He's just crushing it. He also, by the way, for those who don't know, he wrote Will Smith's autobiography, called Will. I mean, this guy is, he's everywhere, he is incredible. I really can't wait to share this episode with you. And please, for those

who I always forget to mention it, if you guys can remember to leave me a review, let me know how you're enjoying the podcast, what you thought of this episode, both on Apple, Spotify, wherever you're listening to this, it really, really helps a lot. So thanks and enjoy. Poor guy. This is like, you've been here for hours and we have any. That's too much. I'm sorry, yeah. God.

It just told me this is like a three hour podcast. I promised I was not gonna be three hours. I promise you. I mean, it might be two. No joke, okay, okay. I am there. This is exciting for me. I just did a little Instagram story on this

because we have Mark Manson on the podcast today and for those of you living under a rock, he wrote the book, the subtle art of not giving a fuck and many other books. And that book, I think I said this in my story is probably one on the top or has been like touted as the one on the top books of the decade sold 20 million copies plus. How many of the sold so far? Well if you add all my books together that's where the 20 million. Oh I thought it was that one alone. So son ord I think is 15 or 16. Oh just 15 or 16. Just 16 million. Oh that's nothing. It's like oh my god you're such a loser marve. So much less impressive. Oh my God, really? It's just 16 million copies of one book.

And then you're follow up book. We're saying, this is what I was like, oh, I want to have this on the podcast. Even though it was like a smash hit as well, you're saying, how many did that one sell? So it's coming up on a million worldwide. And it's, which is funny because by any, I mean, 99.99% of books don't sell a million copies.

And yeah, right. I'm not sure it's hell, it's not. That's what sir. But it's funny because it's following up, Suttlerr, you know, our perception of what success is is very relative and it's very influenced by like the recent past and recent experience. And so coming after Suttlerr, it was very, very hard for that to not feel like a letdown. Like a failure of some kind. But yet, even though you know psychologically, intellectually, that it was still an enormous

hand. Yeah, it's, you, there are many moments of having these silly arguments with myself in my head where it's like, you know, my, my primal instincts are like, oh, you're such a loser. This is such a, this is bombing. Right. And then my like higher-minded, more intellectual part of my brain is like, no, you have to keep perspective. It's hard though. To keep perspective. It's very hard. Like, do people even recognize, do they even connect the dots? Like do they know that you're the guy that wrote that book? Like, when you go out in public and do they come up to, do people know who you are at this

point? I get shit back then. I joke that being author famous is the best form of famous because everybody loves your work but nobody knows what you look like. And so I do get recognized occasionally, but it's just sporadic enough that it's still very enjoyable. So I'd say once a month, I'll get recognized on the street. Really?

Yeah, and it's like a nice ego boost. It's like, oh, sweet. Exactly, but it's not like ruining your life. No, it's not a, if it was every day, it would probably get tiresome, but it's just seldom enough that when it happens, I'm like super grateful and feel really good about it. What's interesting is like, okay, so I read that book forever ago, like I told you, I feel like everybody on the planet that I know has actually

read that book, and, or at least in their audio books, but, you know, and I find it's still so super relevant today, even more so today. But I was going to say what's interesting is that like it has this like it's like the anti-self-help book, but yet it's self-help and it's very psych, like you're very, you're not a psychologist, but you play one in the book, I guess, right? I get mistaken for one often, right? Because there's a lot of stuff in there that's very much, it has that psychological element to it, right?

Or like human nature element. So can we just go back to the origin of your beginning? I mean, I know you're from Texas, but how you even got to be that person to even write that book, because like I said, like, who are you? Who are you, Mark? Well, I think I have one thing that's very inherent to my personalities. I'm a little bit of a chronic contrarian.

I was very rebellious growing up. I've just always kind of naturally looked for the problems or flaws and things. And I think when I was younger, that caused me to be a very negative person and cynical person. But I think as I grew older, I was able to kind of harness that in a more productive way. And so I think what makes subtle art and just my work in general, so appealing is that it doesn't, there's a certain amount of,

I think emotional pressure that comes with positivity. Like life is just really fucking hard, and I can curse, right? Well yeah, I mean the name of your book in itself is like curse, right? So just checking. I've been doing a lot of like TV and radio. No, I'm different.

It's not that you ask, though, because I just noticed that in like Apple, they put like an e-next in my podcast for explicit, I didn't even know that was even there. So, apparently it happens all the time. Apparently you're explicit. Apparently, yeah. But yeah, I think, you know, there's a certain kind of emotional weight or pressure that comes from

the expectation of positivity all the time. Because life's really hard and things suck and things are complicated and I've just found a lot of relief and the acceptance of that and and kind of learning to to channel that and work with it rather than fight against it. And so from the beginning, that was always kind of the goal of my work. I think I grew up in during a period of the self-help industry or personal development industry that I classify as delusional positive, like kind of like a delusional level of positive

thinking stuff like the sea. Isn't that still happening now? It still exists, but it was, that was like the primary message of the industry, you know, when I was a teenager in my 20s and buying books and consuming a lot of this stuff, you know, the secret was the biggest book in the world. Yeah, all right.

Which is literally believe something that is true, that is actually not and delude yourself and the believe in it will come true. But. No, but I think that first of all, that's still like right now a huge trend is manifestation. Yeah. Looking in and you talk with us in your book,

even back then, people like giving themselves positive affirmations, even if they don people like giving themselves positive affirmations, even if they don't believe it to be true, say it over and over and over again, I feel like everything in life gets recycled again. It was a trend back then, and it's now, I think, hitting a stride again. Yeah, it's interesting.

We don't need to go too far down this rabbit hole if you don't want to, but self-help is very No, go ahead cyclical So you see the same ideas pop up Generation line you do Generationally yeah, so if you think about like the classics of the self-help space Thinking grow rich power positive thinking I'm okay. You're okay Power of now. is that considered? Sure, power of now, Tony Robbins stuff in the 80s.

They all have very similar messages. They're just kind of packaged differently. And here in 2023, we look at all those books and we just see them all as classic books, but those books all came out 20 to 30 years apart. So think and grow rich came out in the middle of the Great Depression. Power of positive all came out 20 to 30 years apart. So think and grow rich came out in the middle of the Great Depression. Power of positive thinking came out height of the Cold War.

Twenty Robin stuff came out height of the Reagan 80s. The secret power of now, manifestation, all that kind of cosmic, woo-woo stuff came out in the mid-2000s when Eastern spirituality was kind of making, woo-woo stuff came out, in the mid-2000s, when Eastern spirituality was kind of making this big comeback in Western culture. So. I didn't realize how many years apart, that's so interesting.

Okay, sorry, go on. And you can take this all the way back to the 1800s. So I really studied, this actually ties in kind of orthogonally into the success of Suttler. Like I really studied the industry before I wrote my book and I, if you actually pull up my book proposal for Suttler, I point this out in the book proposal and I said there's so, and I argued that, you know, in the next 10 years, there's going to be a classic self-help book for millennial, the millennial generation. It hasn't been written yet. And so my goal is to write that for the millennial generation. And then I kind

of went through a section where I identified, like, these are the hallmarks of what millennials experience, they tend to be more cynical, They tend to be more honest and upfront about their emotions. They tend to they've lived through the the first major decline and You know, they're the first generation to be worse off than their parents were at the same age So there's a there's a certain degree of like pessimism but realism about problems in life and realizing that you don't get to control everything and that you have to accept something.

So that informed a lot of the kind of early packaging or marketing of the book in my mind. So interesting. Like by that point, I've been blogging a lot of these ideas and hashing them, testing testing them, you know, on social media and with my blog audience. So I kind of knew which ideas were resonating really well, but in terms of like packaging everything together

and really creating like a message that was gonna stick around for decades. Like that was something that only came together when I started thinking about the book. So when you already had a very successful blog, right? So how did the book even come to be? So because before that, you were in a pick up artist, weren't you?

Yeah, back. Explain cake talk about that. I want to hear about the evolution of your work, right? Sure. So I too was an awkward and emotionally stunted adolescent male. You too. Wow. Believe it or not.

So the game, the Neil Strauss book, the game came out, I think I was 19 or 20. And I just got in my heart broken by my first girlfriend. So I was like the perfect, you know, perfect level of maturity, perfect level of like heartbreak and anger, perfect level of like total confusion towards women when that came out. And so I got, I dabbled in that subculture quite a bit and I had a bunch of my friends

were into it and you know, we go out and try the lines in a bar or whatever and it was, yeah, it wasn't that successful, but it was interesting because that subculture, you know, really what the pickup artist thing was, is it was like a masculine excuse to actually work on yourself. If you got past like the cheesy pickup lines and like the top hats and weird stuff that they did,

you would actually find like very deep and interesting conversations on a lot of those message boards about trauma, childhood, broken families, childhood experiences, beliefs like shame around sex, around intimacy. Really? Yeah, and so for a lot of guys, including myself, this was the first time that we had ever been exposed to a lot of guys, including myself, like this was the first time that we had ever

been exposed to a lot of these conversations, especially with other men. You know, maybe you would talk about this with like a really, really close female friend. But not with like two guys talking. Yeah, you never get a, you would never see a group of guys sitting in a room together and talk about their childhood traumas together.

And this happened in that community. And so I think there see a group of guys sitting in a room together and talk about their childhood traumas together. And this happened in that community. And so I think there's a really, there's kind of like a non-obvious positive element of that subculture that was people who didn't really spend a lot of time with it, didn't see. It's funny too because most of the friends that I had from that period really went on to become amazing dudes. And.

Really? Like, what are they doing now, those guys? Super successful on a bunch of different fields and great relationships, marriages, kids. Like, it's, most of the guys left that scene after a year or two. Like, they came for a reason, like either they're heartbroken or they're confused,

or they need to build social skills. But then as soon as I got it, they left. It was really only kind of a toxic minority that got stuck in this like weird festering massage in a brood over a period of time. Yeah, yeah. So I visited that subculture, spent some time in it, dabbled in it.

Meanwhile, I started creating blogs and e-commerce websites. I read Tim Ferriss's for our work week. I wanted to do the whole work at home and your underwear, make money while you sleep. You know, the dream. Living the dream, yes, exactly. So I was creating a lot of websites and stuff like that on the side. And one of the things that guys in the pickup bar industry or subculture would do is that

they created blogs and they would kind of share stories of like, hey, here's the day that I went on last weekend. She never called me back. Can you guys take a look at it and tell me, what went wrong? You're right, right, right. And so there was a lot of that going on. So I also started a blog,

like a dating blog on the side. What was it called? It was just my like pseudonym, which was, it was entropy, which was really, which was actually my gamer name in high school. It would just show how deep the nerdy this goes. Oh my God, I love this.

This is so great. But that's why you're so likable though, right? Like I said before we've been started, you're like so different than I would have expected you to be just from the book vibe. You know, I thought you were like a Tucker Maxx would have expected you to be just from the book vibe. You know, I thought you were like a Tucker Max, I told you. Right. Yeah.

I think people expect me to be super abrasive and snarky, but I don't know. And arrogant. And you're so the opposite. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe I've mellowed as I've gotten older, I don't know. I don't know. You seem like I don't know.

I don't think it's it's who you really are. Yeah. Feels like it anyway. So I started writing about my dating life. And back then I had a pretty raucous, I mean I partied a lot, I was drinking a lot, I was going out a lot. And I was starting to have success in the dating world. We've seen a lot of girls and hooking up a bunch. And so I was writing about it and I kind of developed this little cult following

in Boston. But wait, did you have success around it because you're kind of like learning from the pickup artist world, like how to kind of navigate? Because a lot of the stuff, as you know, it's like human psychology, right? Like people, doesn't matter how attractive you are, how talented you are, it's about how you, that's how you kind of carry yourself, right? And you learned body language and... Honestly, I think a lot of what made the Pickup Art or stuff quote unquote work was like the placebo effect, which was like, these pickup lines don't actually work,

they're actually very cheesy and stupid. It's just, they give you a false level of confidence to convince you to actually walk across the room and talk to that attractive woman who you were scared to death to attract to before or talk to before and then ended up going really well. But it would have gone well anyways, even if you didn't have the line,

you just needed the line to give you that of the confidence to go do it. So I think the provotto or whatever, too. But it would have gone well anyways, even if you didn't have the line, you just needed the line like give you that that Consumance to go do it. So I think I think the bravado or whatever to I think in a lot of cases I think a large percentage of the quote unquote success that guys Experience in that industry was really just that okay, and I kind of figured that out Pretty quickly like the lines never sat well with me. I was like, you know, I'm actually like pretty fun and funny just being myself. So if I can just get my foot in the door, like find a way to like open up a conversation,

I think I'm okay from there. But again, I think a lot of the most valuable stuff from that community was, again, some of the deeper, less obvious stuff, like helping guys become more aware of their emotions, helping them become more aware of their insecurities, understanding things like body language, social etiquette, basic social skills, how to be polite, how to be funny, how to be respectful. How to socialize, basically. Yeah, and I think what also gets missed too is that, you know, a lot of the, I mean, there

was a lot of disrespectful behavior encouraged towards women by some companies and some coaches in that industry, but a lot of it was just, I mean, a lot of it, there was a lot of just false provotto. It wasn't even necessarily about the women per se. It was kind of just dumb locker room advice of like, oh bro, you gotta, you're the fucking man. You gotta let people know you're the fucking man. It's like whether it was a woman in front of you

or another guy, it didn't matter. It was a lot of these guys were just kind of like puffing out their chest. So it was a real crash course in just social dynamics, social skills, romantic dynamics. And while there was a lot of cringy things that went on and definitely there were certain sectors of the industry that were misogynistic and not healthy, I do think it was net positive for most of the guys involved. So anyway, I kind of developed this little following around my blog of guys in Boston and started to kind of be known as a party hound and a player, I guess.

And then the weird thing that started happening is guys started asking me, asking me, like, go out with me, you know, like, go to a bar with me to like see how I did it. Oh, like, to kind of coach them. Okay, help them. Yeah. Like, I just want to see like how you talk to these girls in person or whatever. And I was like, all right.

And then it started happening enough that I was like, I know I was completely broke at the time. So I was like, well, how about this? If you give me like 200 bucks, you can come spend this hang out with me for a Saturday night. And to my shock, like, you can come spend this hang out with me for a Saturday night. Into my shock, like, you know, a dozen guys signed up. And I was like, oh shit, all right. I'm a 500 bucks, you know, let's see how far this can go.

So I did, you know, and then once I realized I'm like, oh crap, I'm a coach. Like, I need to to teach these guys things. That started precipitating the research and the investigation into what is actually effective here, what a different people need. And I did that for about two years. And I ended up, I managed to kind of grow that audience nationally. I did it all around the nationally. I did it all around the country. I did it in Europe. We're still taking guys to bars or yeah, like all across the

country. Yeah. How much were you charging at the end? At the end, I think it got up to like $1,200 or $1,500 a day or something like that. For some guy to come watch you do this at the bar. Well, it actually, I mean, what I, what you quickly learn is that it's, you know, for me to walk up to a woman in a bar and chat with her and like get her phone number or something, it's cool, like for the guy watching, it's cool for about three minutes. Yeah, yeah.

But then they don't actually learn anything. Right? It's kind of like, you know, so it quickly turned into like, okay, why don't you go talk to that woman at the bar and make a fool out of yourself and then we'll see like what, what actually, you know, what are you doing wrong here? It's like, and it's funny because I, I'd say 90% of the time, it was guys either just had poor social skills, like they really

just needed somebody to stand there and be like, you know, don't stand that close to somebody, you're invading their personal space or like't slouch, look people in the eye when you talk to them. Like basic stuff like that that most of our parents teach us, but a lot of these guys grew up without their parents around or without a role model. So it's weird, it's almost like you're being paid to like parent somebody.

I mean, there were clients where I'm like, did you take a shower today? No. Okay, first rule, you do not leave the house without taking a shower, you know? Really? Like it's on that level. And I think the whole industry kind of gets misconstrued

as this like evil conniving, mad, the super genius nerds and their evil lair, like conspiring how to trick millions of women into bed. And it's like, no, these are guys who like, didn't learn basic hygiene, didn't learn basic social skills, often suffer from extreme social anxiety. A lot of them are on the spectrum

a lot of them grew up in Extremely there I had a lot of clients that Either grew up in an incredibly religious households where like they literally were not allowed to date period right Or they grew up in an extremely high-pressure household, where it's like you have to go to med school, you have to become a doctor, or we're gonna disown you. And next thing, they're 28, they're a doctor, and they've never been on a date in their life,

and they have no idea how to start. All their friends are getting married. And so it's 90% of the time, you're really just helping kind of underdeveloped men, socially underdeveloped men, develop the social skills and the basic romantic skills that most of us learn in high school and college. Right, so did you just take a boatload of people at once to the bar, or did you teach them a class?

Were you taking at a time so early on I would I would take I think up the five and then and yeah and we would do like classroom during the day and then go out at night as time went on, I started to realize that it went from five max to three max to two. And I think by the end, it was I would only do two at the most because it's just, you need personal attention. It's so much of it is... Personal attention. Yes, exactly. It's like what these guys are lacking is personal attention.

Exactly. Nobody has spent enough time with them to tell them, like, hey, dude, like, you know, it's, you've got this weird tick when you talk to people and it kind of creeps, creeps them out. You should stop doing that. Like, it's, you need, you need enough face time to be able to tell them that. Totally. And yeah, after about a year, I got rid of the classroom stuff too,

because it was mostly stuff, you just read in a book or, you know. But a lot of these things, you know this, like a lot of this stuff, comments sometimes isn't so common. Like people can find a lot of information on this, like life coaching on Google or on YouTube, but they still paying a meal,

like thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars for masterminds and for some guru to tell them what to do. Yeah, it's a weird aspect about this industry and that it almost, so this is the weird thing, too, is like, it's like the more money they pay, the more, I guess, accountable, they feel for like, oh, I better get value out of this. So the more they listen and the more they care and the more they try, I noticed that was another great lesson, interesting lesson from my time in that industry, it was that like often raising prices

made people try harder. Yeah. And care more. Didn't always, but sometimes it did. But then there are other times too, where it's, people would, would be in the market for a coach and they'd be like, well, this person charges $1,000 a weekend

and this person charges $2,000 a weekend. and this person charges $2,000 a weekend. Well, clearly, the $2,000 person is better. Right. Perception of value. Yeah. Right? Is that because if you charge more, it must be better. Yeah. And obviously, that's not always true. So eventually, I wanted to get out of that industry

for a few reasons. One was that it felt very, I became convinced that any, any like really, anything more than a superficial change isn't really possible in a weekend. Like, you can teach some basic social skills. You can help somebody get over an anxiety a little bit. You can build a little bit of confidence, but most of the quote unquote breakthroughs that happen in like an intensive, you know, say 12 hour coaching period, they don't stick.

And because it's really what you're dealing with, you're not dealing with like, oh this guy in the bar is afraid to go talk to, pretty salient or whatever. Like what you're dealing with is years of bullying, years of social anxiety, ostracization, I'm not saying that right. Ostracization, yes. Ostracization. It's hard work toization, I'm not saying that right. Astrocylation, yes. Astrocylation.

It's hard work to say, actually. You know, lack of socialization. You know, you can't. I think embedded deep into your DNA, you can't just see. That's, but what do you think about like, how Tony Robbins seminars, all these seminars where people go away to do their date with destiny or they go do whatever they're doing for four or five days.

And they're so motivated. I'm curious what the percentage of people who actually stick to that, because most of the time is the same as repeat customers going back all the time, right? Which I have a big problem with. I know that's why I want to, you're a perfect person. Like can I tell you something? That's why I loved reading your book. Like, everything you were saying, I know, that's why I want to, you're a perfect person. Can I tell you something? That's why I loved reading your book. Like, everything you were saying, I resonated.

Because you were speaking like truth. Yeah. It's, I have such an ambivalent, like, love hate relationship with Tony, because I think a lot of the information he gives is very good. Like, a lot of the advice is that is very good. Yeah, I agree, I agree. What I hate is the business model and the implementation.

So I think one thing he does, and he does it extremely well is, and I learned this when I was coaching too, is that if you can, we used to call it state pumping. So if you could elevate a person's emotional state and make them emotional, you create the perception of permanent change, even though nothing is permanently changed.

All the only thing that's to change is the emotion. So one way to do this, and it's actually ironic, because Tony does the exact same thing. So one of the ways we used to do this, and it's actually ironic, because Tony does the exact same thing. So, one of the ways we used to do this, you know, let's say I take three guys out to a club and we're there to like learn how to pick up girls or whatever. Well, obviously there's a lot of expectation, there's a lot of anxiety. So what's the first thing you do? Well, you go to the dance floor and you get everybody dancing

like an absolute maniac. That was always the first thing I would do. And if things were going really well, then I'd get them to do silly things. I'm like, you know, we're like sitting there dancing on the dance floor, like idiots. And I'd be like, let's do 10 push-ups in the middle of the dance floor.

And they're like, that's crazy. And so next thing you know, we're do 10 pushups in the middle of the dance floor. And they're like, that's crazy. You know, it's so next thing, you know, we're doing pushups in the middle of the dance floor. And it just seems completely wacky and out of place, but there's actually a really important utility of that. One is you get over, you know, you get that first embarrassment out of the way. So it's, it's one, you know, once you've been embarrassed, once you realize, oh, nothing bad happened, I'll do it again.

But the air factor is kind of eliminated a little bit. Exactly. But then the other thing too is it's just like in a very physiological way, you have, you have amplified or elevated the person's emotional state. And so they're way more excited, they're way more energetic, they're way more motivated. And so suddenly that difficult thing of talking to an attractive stranger doesn't feel so difficult anymore. It's in fact, sounds a little bit fun.

And that's great for that night. The problem is, is, you know, the next weekend when they wake up and they're still their nervous self and they go into that club and they're like, oh, man, well, maybe I should try to dance on the dance floor by myself, but that's weird. And, you know, they're right back to square one. Like, it's the real change only occurs over a very long timeline of kind of rewiring neural circuits, re-reforming social habits, emotional habits, altering people's expectations, altering people's identities,

like their perceptions of themselves. You can't do that in a weekend. So I think what Tony does really, really well, and it's ironic because Tony uses the dance thing. Like, if you ever go to, or Tony Robbins seminar, have you been to one before? I have not, but I have a bunch of friends who have gone and I've watched a number of his videos. He has people, he's blaring music and having people dance constantly and a lot of that is to elevate people's emotional state

I think his argument would be that it when people's emotional state is elevated makes them more open to feedback and Lessons which is true But it also gives this false sense of change. It gives us false sense of progress. And so I think, and I hope this is unintentional, but what I think happens with the seminar model like that, and it's not just Tony, you know, you could say this about landmark, you could say this about a dozen other companies. I know, yeah, I know. We're just using him as an example. I mean, it's the most prominent one. Right. And we all know who we at, right?

Of course. Yeah. You know, somebody, you take somebody, they're very depressed. They're very anxious. They're very insecure. They feel a certain level of hopelessness. They go to the seminar. They spend a ton of money. Go to the seminar for a brief three day window. They feel good. they feel a little bit of hope they feel like oh my god I changed and they leave the seminar feeling great and hopefully

a little bit sticks and I'm sure some stuff sticks I'm you know this episode is brought to you by global ex ETFs start your investing journey by exploring exchange-traded funds. Exchange-traded funds, more commonly known as ETFs, create baskets of stocks, bonds, and other assets that you can buy in a single trade. At GlobalX, they specialize in ETFs that track emerging technologies, like the rise of electric vehicles, as well as strategies aimed to potentially generate income, and much more. To discover how you can add ETFs to your portfolio, visit globalxetf.com.

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You nailed it though, it's that hope. Yeah. Because people need hope to kind of move on and carry on, right? Yes. That's the first part of this. Yes. Hope for the future and hope for themselves. That it's like, oh, I have now seen

that I'm actually capable of being this different person. So I think that is very valuable. But then the problem is that, you know, habits take time, identity change takes time. And then it's only four days have gone by. So pretty soon, you're back to the same old you, and you start feeling hopeless again, feeling a little bit depressed. And then I think things can go one of two ways, which is one is, well, shit, I need to go

back to do another Tony Robbins seminar. Exactly. You become addicted to the self-help seminars. Yep. And I've seen this with people I know, they have, they're just, they're just, they're, they drain their savings. Yeah, it's sick. They're going over and over and over and over again.

They're giving him thousands and thousands of dollars. That's gross, yeah. You know, it's, but their life isn't really changing. Yeah. You know, but they get addicted to that high for like a few days. Yes, and that's the really gross side of it. And I don't think that happens to a majority of customers, but I imagine that is the majority of their revenue is repeat customers.

It's definitely repeat customers. The other, so you get those people, they go one of two ways, either like I need to go back, the other direction is it actually makes them feel more hopeless. And this is something that doesn't get talked about all of it. Right. Talk about it. Yeah, but it's, it's, if you actually look, so there's actually been a lot of psychological

research on self-help material and self-help seminars. And it's super interesting. And they find that overall it is beneficial. It's like, it's net positive, it's not as net positive as therapy, but it's good, it's better than nothing. It's kind of like a therapy light, I guess. But what's interesting is that there is a significant minority of people are actually worse off afterwards. So they feel worse about themselves, they feel more depressed, they feel more anxious.

By the way, it's true about therapy as well, but it's... Oh, why is that? What's the reason behind it? I think, well, I think in the case of self-help, it's, you know, you're depressed, you're anxious, you feel hopeless, you go to the seminar, you feel great, you come back, you feel depressed, anxious, hopeless, and you realize you're like, there's nothing I can do, it's not me. Like I'm broken, and I need somebody else to fix me.

But I can't, I don't have the money, I don't have the resources, I can't be going to a seminar every weekend for the rest of my life. Or what happens, I would think, sorry, I was going to interrupt that, I would imagine I haven't been, but you go and you get all these people like mine, did you all together in this community,

like wow, everything's going to be great. And then you go back to your real life and you're like, oh shit, this is my real life. There's a crowd out there, right? Yeah, it could be. It's one thing I know, and again, this goes back to my coaching days. It's, you know, people who come into this industry, they tend to be in a vulnerable position. Like they don't feel very good about themselves.

They don't feel very good emotionally. A lot of times they're very unhealthy. And they have a propensity to blame themselves. And so if you as a coach or therapist or a guru, seminar leader, whatever, if you give them bad advice and it doesn't work, most of these clients don't blame you. They blame themselves.

They're like, oh, well, you know, Mark knows what he's doing. You know, it didn't work for me. So I guess there's something wrong with me. Or like Tony knows what he's doing. He's helped, I mean, he's like, he's a keeper. Yeah, he's advised president, so whatever. It's like, so if his advice doesn't work for me, it must be me. And that's dangerous. Like, that's a really dangerous, uh, and again, this is why the personal attention aspect is so important. Like, the reason therapy is so efficacious is because the therapist is in the room there when that thought is happening to catch it and be like, don't go there. That's not true.

You know, therapists can be wrong just as often as anybody else. Like one in one, you're saying, yeah. Exactly. But if you're in a self-help seminar with 5,000 people in the room and you start having that thought, you're like, wow, look at all these people. Like, it's working for them, but it's not working for me. What's wrong with me? Well, Tony's not going to come off the stage and be like, hold on.

Don't hold that thought. Exactly. Everybody time out. Exactly. Everybody time out. Exactly. Because it always does pick that one person, maybe it could be you. But that's what social media I find too, right?

It's this whole idea that you looking at everybody else, it's like you're comparing yourself, which is a whole bad slip of wrist from the fur at all, right? Because you always think what's wrong with me. Why am I not living that life? Why am I not happy? Why am I blah, blah, blah?

You know, and that's something you did this in the book, even before social media was so rampant as it is now, I feel. But sorry, I didn't mean we were like, I was like, we're going off on, because you're saying that from the whole pick up world, how did you then, so you were kind of doing all this research on these cycles of books of for self-help,

and then what happened? Oh, well, that came later. So. Right, right, right, so, right, so the transition from pickup to, kind of, sort of, yeah, so now you're decided you don't want to do the pickup stuff anymore. How did you kind of exit that?

Yeah, so I decided to exit for a couple of reasons. One was because of everything we just talked about. Like I became very skeptical of how helpful you can be on such a short time span. I also just left because I'm like, you know, by then I think I was 27, 28 and I was like, shit, I don't want to be like, I don't want to be like, I don't want to be like the creepy 40 year old

hanging out in bars, like talking to college girls. So I was like, I need to find, I need to find a way to turn this into a real career, you know, this is, I can't do this anymore. Which parents think by the way, be being that person, could you came from a pretty affluent family, right? Like, yeah, you know, dad and stepmom were pretty horrified. Um, mom, mom was a little more open-minded

and trusting. She didn't get it, but she was like, you know. He's gonna figure it out. You're smart, you'll figure it out. Yeah. Dad and his dad mom were pretty horrified. Really? I'm like, you know, there are a lot of awkward Thanksgiving's

of like, when are you gonna get a real job? Where'd you to add you for a living? What was this? My dad owns a small plastic manufacturing company. Yeah. And your mom? My mom was in the travel industry for a long time. Okay, just curious, okay, continue.

So I was kind of looking at the situation. By this point, the blog had grown quite a bit. And you've always been a good writer, right? Like, that's always been like one of your, yeah, really strong, so okay, so. Yeah, so, and I also enjoyed it a lot I actually enjoyed the writing. I you know, it took a couple years But I started to realize I actually enjoy the writing a lot more than the coaching. Okay

So I was like, you know, maybe maybe I can find a way to make the writing side of this work uh, and so I started developing the blog building the audience there and then I I self published a book Which was called models attract Attract Women Through Honesty, and it was basically, at the time, I kind of thought of it as like my mic drop. I was like leaving that industry, because by that point, there was a lot of toxicity going on. It's funny because a lot of that is kind of resurfaced with like the

Andru Tate stuff the last the last year too, but a lot of that like, you know, alpha male, don't be a beta like, you know, put her in her place. Types share. Yeah, you know, and you're right. There's always cyclical though. Like you said, when did you put that book out? So that came out 2011. I loved it. So 12 years ago. Yeah. And it's, yeah, if you think about it, because it's my generation, we went through the pickup stuff to kind of, you know, our generation of men

needed that to kind of grow up. And I think Gen Z now is hitting that age. Yeah. Where they're looking for that. So yeah, I wrote that book and it was basically like, it's, I wanna write a book that is, how to be more attractive, how to have better relationships,

but from like a very emotionally healthy standpoint as a man. But also acknowledging, you know, kind of the, the social pressures or expectations of like, the man is always supposed to initiate. The man is expected to take the social risk, the man's supposed to be willing to be embarrassed to be rejected, but right from a healthy point of view,

like instead of like, this like macho, the city thing. instead of like, this like macho, the city thing. So that was that. And it's funny because that book came out and it was crickets. Like, at first none of the guys wanted to hear it. You know, I got trashed on forums. I got called like a beta bitch and like,

really? All this stuff, yeah. I was like, all right guys, good luck. Yeah. I'm like, good luck. Yeah. That's so funny. Yeah, enjoy, you know, enjoy Circle Jerk in your mom's basement.

I love it. It's hilarious. It's so good. So, the book did eventually kind of through word of mouth. That industry kind of cleaned up its own act over time. Over time. And I actually became very happy and proud of how well that book ended up doing. It took a few years, but it ended up, I mean, at one point on the pickup artist subreddit,

it was, there was like the pinned post at the top was like, don't ask any questions till you read Mark Manson's book. And it kind of became like the first, any guy who came into those communities are like, you need to read models. Before you talked to anybody or ask any questions, read. Really?

Yeah, it was like my book and maybe one or two others. So they're like, read these books and then, wow. Okay. So I became very proud of that. So it was actually, it worked out really well. But at the time, you know, at the time when I left, I was like, oh God. I could have that. So my thinking at the time was like,

what I also discovered from the coaching was like, there's no such, like all these guys would come to me. They're like, you know, I go on all these dates and girls never call me back. Like, I don't know what's wrong. And early on, I'm like, oh, well, you just didn't try the right text message, you know? I love it.

Like you got to tease her more. What would be the text message that you would tell people to do? Oh my God, I don't even remember. If someone doesn't, you do so, Rev. I'd really don't. So someone doesn't text you back, what do you say? You just, you move on with your life.

That's what you say now, right? That man. I don't know, there would probably be, you know, what would it be? So being funny, would you say? Yeah, probably some stupid like Deplicating will it be send a meme or you know a joke or I don't know yeah I it was probably something like that. It's like okay. Well get it you get her to laugh

Then you follow up with the question and like yeah, I do you know exactly what you would say that's probably That's probably what the advice would have been. So get rid of laugh and then follow up with a question. Yeah. Okay. I like it. I would take a note. Yeah. Yeah.

It's like one that once you respond, you know, although she's hooked. Although it's today, it's probably weird with like the red, the thing, messages being marked red. Oh, yeah, yeah. See, this is why it's hard for me to talk about this stuff because I, it's true. I was in this industry pretender. I was in this industry between like,

pre, you know, WhatsApp and like, I still work, is this still the same? Like, I think that the principles will never change. Yeah, the principles will never change. But this is why like the tactical questions, I'm like, I don't know, dude. Yeah, the tap, but I think I would imagine, not to give you another, you could have a whole new career, but I think this is helpful for women who are single, right? Because you are that quintessential guy.

So can't you give advice to women on the same thing? So this actually ties in to kind of where my career went next. So my, what I realized after a couple of years working with guys is like, okay, your problem isn't that you don't know what to text girls. The problem is is that you're super needy

and it's just really repellent. Yeah. I like so like, that's exactly right. Like and it's just really repellent. Yeah. I like so like, that's exactly right. Like if you give them some like bullet points and what's the like not to do. Yeah, so it's a, like no tactic here is gonna save you from yourself. Like you really need to look within yourself

and figure out like why are you so needy, why are you constantly craving validation or approval. So I started writing about, and what I realized is that that's pretty much every guy who ever came to this stuff. Like, the problem is not that you don't know what the text or don't know how to respond or whatever. There's some emotional issue going on. So I started writing about those emotional issues. And it was, and initially it was geared towards men

but something really interesting happened, which was I started to develop a sizable female audience. I would think so. Yeah. And it was crazy because I was specifically writing for men. You know, it was like, this is why she never calls you back. And then it would get into like how needy dudes behave and how to stop being a needy dude.

And then women started emailing me like, oh my God, I sent this to my brother. Like, this is the best thing I've told her. This is, you know, and- Do you remember the movie, he's not that into you? Yeah. Was that like around the same time when women started to really kind of look at you

was that too? I think that was a little bit before. Oh, is it? I remember. Yeah, but it was interesting because I was completely oblivious to the women's dating advice. Right. Like I had no, had paid no attention. And I started getting a lot of emails from women. They said, you know, I know you're right for men, but this is better than anything I've read that's written for women. Like, have you written anything for women? And eventually I got enough of those emails that I was kind of like, huh, maybe I should just write for everybody. You know, I started looking at a lot of my articles.

Because isn't it, doesn't it, doesn't it, doesn't it apply to vote? It does. It does. The only thing that changes is, well, I mean, the only things that are different, sex gets a little bit different because obviously men and women are different that way. Yes. Have different parts. But then the social expectations, like the cultural expectations are different as well. So it's like, men are expected to initiate, but then the social expectations, like the cultural expectations are different as well. So it's like men are expected to initiate, but then women, and this was the thing that guys never understood is that, you know, like, oh, women have it so easy, like they just like stand around and look cute

and all the guys talk to them. And I'm like, you know, if you actually think about it, it's actually not that easy because anywhere you go in public, guys just like start randomly coming up to you and talking to you, like that's really intimidating. And how do you, if you're not interested, how do you tell them you're not interested without them getting pissed off

and taking it personally? Right. You know, if guys being super creepy and following you, like, how do you deal with that? And so there's, there's a, you know, and women on the other hand, see guys and they're like, like, wow, guys don't have to deal with creepy people following them and intimidating them

and they don't get bothered when they're in a coffee shop or in a bookstore, you know? Like, and like, wow, guys have it so easy. And they, so there was a lot of interesting disconnects on kind of the social expectation side of things. But I also think what's women though, like how many times are you here, like, oh, he's not calling me back or what am I doing? Like, why doesn't he like me or why this girl, you know what I mean?

Like, it's the core of what you were doing to those guys. It's the same shit. It's the same shit. You're too needy. It's exactly the same shit. You don't know who you are. The art of the style, art of giving a fuck.

Like, you don't care enough. Yeah. People indifferent. Like, don't care so much. Like, don't have a life. You know, all these things. And it is similar to that, most of the female dating advice is very tactical.

You know, so it's like, oh, oh, don't call them back for three days. That used to be a thing. Yeah, I remember that. It was like, don't call them back for three days, which is fucking stupid. If you like a guy, just call him back. It's one of the things that I started preaching at a certain point was like, if you get your emotions straight, everything else takes care of itself.

You don't have to worry about anything else because you're not worried about rejection. You're not worried about getting your feelings hurt. You're not worried about, you know, not being liked enough or whatever. So it's, it's, get right with yourself, get your own life in order, figure out who you are, what you love, what you care about, who you want to meet, learn how to express that effectively, and then be confident when, like, be okay with hearing no for an answer. And in your set, like, that's, it'll take care of itself after that. Right, right, right. Or you would hope, but yes.

Yeah, eventually it will. So they started getting women as clients or women as audience, yeah, readers. And so from there, I kind of, I rebranded my website and changed everything and just became Mark Manson and started writing for everybody. And that was 2013, early 2013, and as soon as I did that, the audience exploded. Like it was, you know, with the combination, with all the women coming in and then at the same time, you know, social media was really, I mean, social media had been around for a while, but that was the first time ever that things kind of like went viral on social media. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But you're okay, so could the book came out what year the art of the set-a-long? Sorry, it was 2016. 2016, okay. So, yeah, so you're... Yeah, this was 2012, 2013. Did you have like a big email list and a big audience before you even wrote the book? Yes. How big was that audience?

Yeah, so we, let's see, from 2012, I think in 2012, it was around, I want to say, like, 100,000 people a month. Wow. Okay. And then by 2015, it was, I think it peaked in 2015 at two million a month. Two million, wow. So it 20 acts in two years.

That's amazing. And it was, you know, it was one of those kind of perfect storms. I think a lot of things went right. One was opening up my material to both genders. Like that was really crucial and important. I think being, I think I recognized the viral potential social media before most people. You know, it took a few years. Back then, it was like writers at the New York Times or the Atlantic like they didn't

know what SEO was they didn't know right they didn't really they didn't have a like they maybe just hired a social media manager they would just kind of just post the article and forget about it on Facebook right meanwhile what I realized is that if you write a really good title and create a really good thumbnail image. Like people start sharing your stuff. So you knew that already. I figured that out. I kind of figured it out on an accident. But thumbnails more visual like video.

You weren't doing video back then. Well, it was, I'm not using the right word. But like when you post an article on Facebook, it like pulls an image from the other one. Oh, you mean like an image. So I used to spend a lot of time thinking about like, okay, what image do I want to be pulled for this? What title?

What description? Cause I realized there was, so I basically just realized virality, I think a year or two before most. Right. Which is super important. So you're ahead of the curve. Huge. So when you got the book deal and all that other stuff, did you, did it kind of have that tipping point

because you right away your entire audience that you already had embedded in, bought the book right away? Yeah. And then the algorithm started and made it go viral? Yeah. You know, the book, I got my book deal in that period. One of the smart things my agent did is she started looking. Molly?

Yeah, so Molly, shout out to Molly. Actually, I know her name is kind of like a... She started looking on Facebook for authors. Yeah, for... Oh, really? So she came after you Molly. Yeah. Yeah, a real. Does she find, so she came after you Molly. Yeah. Right.

Yeah, a number of agents did. I think kind of word got out that this was happening that people were building these massive audiences. Who was one of them? Nothing. Like when you were doing this back then, James Clear. James Clear, right? So we'll see the only one.

Like who else was your, not competition. There were a bunch. So Tim Urban, wait but why started so James James Started his blog I think 2011 2012. Okay, same time frame. Yeah Tim urban. I think started 2013 Wait but why calm, you know like the stick figures. Oh, yeah, yeah, this is name. Yeah, I didn't know that okay. Yeah, okay Sorry Tim urban Oh, yeah, yeah, this is name. Tim, I didn't know that. Okay. Okay. Sorry, Tim Urban. There are a few others.

I'm probably blanking on a few. I think Gretchen Rubin started her blog around the same time. So yeah, there's like a whole kind of like click of us that came up. But Gretchen Rubin's book, it was called Happy This Project. Happy This Project. Didn't yours kind of surpass that one by a landslide? Yeah, but I think she built her initial audience. Her own at the same time.

Around the same time, yeah. So people are all circling you to sign you for a book. Why did you go with Molly? So Molly, I love telling this story. Molly is a very aggressive New Yorker. And it's really interesting. Like, so I took a lot of calls with agents. So to give a little bit of context at the time,

this was probably 2014, 2013, 2014. So at this point, I've been five years. I'd like scrapped and clawed my way. I was like living, you know, when I started, I was living on friends' couches. I moved back in with my mom for a while. Like it was hard days early on. Really?

Cause you're keepin' from a rich family, though, too, right? But they didn't support you, basically. No, no, no, no. Okay. No. And I only know the cause I heard you say that before and other people's podcasts. Yeah, I, uh,

or an interview. No, I never asked for money. And that wouldn't have given it. Yeah. You would be like, why don't you go get a job? Yeah, and I'll be a kick-of-artist. Yeah, and then we'll talk.

So there was actually a very, there was like a lot of, I also felt like a very large amount of pride of like, I wanna do this myself. Yeah. So, you know, I went back a little with mom for a few months. X-girlfriend of mine was supported me for a little while. Like it, it, it was month to month for a few years

when I started out. And then after five or six years of client and scraping and grinding, you know, I get to 2013, 2014 and it's like built this huge audience, I'm finally making decent money. How are you making the money now? Was it just from advertisers on your blog? Or yeah, mostly like affiliate stuff,

but I had some, I had like e-books, so I had the self published book. I had a couple online courses that e-books, so I had the self-published book, I had a couple online courses that I was selling through my website. Horses on what? Just basic, you know, relationship skills. Got it, okay. Conversation skills, you know, all the, the shit I used to, the coach basically.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So, I had a very strong sense of self-sufficiency of like, I got here on my own. I had to build everything myself. I, you know, I'm making money myself through my own website. So there was a little bit of like skepticism at, I guess, conventional media. So when agents came and started knocking, I was like, well, and by then I had been working on subtle art for maybe six or eight months.

I knew I was gonna do a book. So when all the agents came knocking, my attitude was like, okay, yeah, I could do a book with a publisher, but if you do it with a publisher, you only get 20%, your royalty is 15 to 20%. And in a lot of cases, as you know, the publisher does not do what they say,

that they're gonna do for you. Yeah. You know, I had heard some horror stories. And by that point, I had already self published a book, and that book was, I'm getting between 70 and 80% royalties on that self published book, and that book is doing really well, selling a couple thousand copies a week,

or not a week a month. So I'm making like a really nice six figure income off of that. So I'm like, well, you know, why give up that extra royalty? Like, I've got this huge audience, I've got an email list. Totally, why didn't you self publish that book? So none of the agents could answer this question. And it was funny too, because a lot of,

I mean, I talked to a lot of really nice, nice agents and had good conversations with them, but it was funny because they were, all of them that I talked to, they were really trying to be my friend. Like they were trying to be like really cool. Like what are your favorite books, man? Oh, I love that one.

You know, like we'd have these like really chill 45 minute conversations about whatever. And then I got on the phone with Molly and she just like very abrasively starts like bombarding me with all these questions about my audience and my monetization and my revenue and what do I want and you know and then she starts saying like, well, if we pitch it to this publisher, they're probably gonna expect this.

And if we pitch it to this publisher, I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, who says I'm gonna publish it with a real publisher? And she was like, what do you mean? And I was like, well, I've got this audience, like it's self-published if I want. And she was like, you mean you don't know if you wanna publish a book?

And I was like, no, I'm still, I'm actually curious, why do you think I should do it? And she was like, you mean you don't know if you want to publish a book? And I was like, no, I'm still like, I'm actually curious. Like, why do you think I should do it? And she was like, I don't know, but still like, stop wasting my time. And she like basically kind of hung up on me. And I was like, wow, all right. She's a prickly one. But then I started thinking about it. And I was like, you know, what is an agent?

And essentially an agent is like the bad cop to your good cop, you know, because it's like you wanna be chummy with your publisher and your editor and have fun conversations and talk about your favorite books. But it's like, if you're negotiating contract and that contracts worth a lot of money

and you don't wanna get fucked over eating an agent and you're just gonna come in and start being like, you're fucking us over, you're not going to do this. You go by the level, you know, I'm like, okay, yeah, I want her on my team. Molly got the job. Yeah, I'm like, I want Molly to be my bad cop. That's great. And she's, you know, and that's actually one thing I learned from my dad. My dad, my dad taught me this great lesson.

So as I mentioned, my dad has a small manufacturing business in Austin. And I used to work summers there. And it's like, yeah, it's not glamorous. So you're basically in this giant warehouse shop making plastic in the Texas summer heat and getting paid not well. But, you know, it's one of those formative experiences when you're 18 that kind of sticks with you. But the cool thing about those experiences was that I would be on the shop floor all day,

you know, producing the plastic hanging out with with all these blue collar red neck Texas dudes. Learning how an industrial company actually functions. Then I go out and lunch with the president. It was funny because the main supervisor of the shop floor was this guy named Ed and everybody hated Ed. Heeded him. everybody was always telling they're like don't talk to Ed. He's gonna ruin your days, gonna fuck you over. He's gonna do this. He's gonna do that. And after I've been there, this is like my

first summer there. And I remember after I've been there for a few weeks, I've just heard all these horrible stories about Ed. So I went to lunch with my dad and I was like, hey dad, I gotta tell you something. I don't, I don't know if I should tell you this. He's like, what's that? Like, man, everybody hates Ed. Ed is the worst. If my tet just starts laughing. And he's like, really, what have you heard about him?

And I should tell him some of the stories that I heard. And he's like, all right. He's like, let me tell you another story about Ed. He said, when I hired Ed, our quality control went up 40%, productive output went up 20%. He starts listing all these stats of just like, Ed just like complete game changer,

made everything more efficient. And he was like, he was like, what do you think about that story? I'm like, well, yeah, but like, and he's like, look, Ed's an asshole, but sometimes it's good to work with assholes. And I remember that lesson stuck with me a lot. Like there's a, I even wrote an article,

I'm trying to remember what it was called. It was called like why it's important to be an asshole or something like that. And it was all about that. It was all about how like there are moments in your professional life where it's, I call it the asshole switch. Like it's important to be like, turn on an asshole switch and be like, okay, this can be unpleasant for everybody, but we're all gonna be better off for it. We're gonna have a very unpleasant interaction.

I'm gonna call you out on some bullshit. We're gonna argue about it, but it's gonna make things get done and it's gonna get done better because of it. And I think it's as an individual, it's important to like learn how to recognize those moments and flip that switch. But I also think in teams,

it's probably optimal to have an asshole on the team's own time. It's true, actually, right? Like not everyone has to be your best friend. Yeah. And like you learn that like with the agent situation, right? But I think because that ed situation was so prevalent in your life,

that's probably why you gravitated to Molly. I, you know, and I I like one of my biggest values in life is honesty and trust. And the great thing about Molly is I always know she's being honest. Yeah. And it's funny because I know where you stand. Always. And it's funny because I'm, these days I'm friends with a bunch of other authors who are really successful And and I've some of them have relationships with it like their agents basically just kiss their ass

Yeah, all the time tell them what they want to hear and It's I know I can pick up the phone and and Call Molly and ask her a question and I'm gonna get an honest answer and it's like It might not be what I wanna hear. And that's actually really, especially, and okay, okay kids, here's a lesson for you. The higher you get up the success mountain, the harder it is to find people

who are gonna be honest with you. Totally, and like you see that now, like I was gonna say, you've seen that probably as you got more and more successful. Yeah, and seen it in others. And other people around you, because as you get more successful, you're probably professional circle is getting more.

Yeah. And you see that everyone just surrounds themselves with yes, man. Yeah, and it's, I don't even think it's conscious. Like it's just, it's human. We like being told things that we want to hear. And so we become biased towards the people who will say the things we want to hear and we'll keep them around a little bit more.

And so true. How do you keep that like level of down to earthness as that? Like it sounds to me, is it because not you can be, you can use yourself in this as an example, but like it is really hard, right it because not you can use yourself and it's an example, but like, it is really hard, right? Cause as you get more successful as all this stuff is happening, it's human nature. That you gravitate to people who like make you feel nice and sweet and say nice things to you. Cause like, you just, it is what happens in human nature,

naturally. How do you keep yourself like on the ground and down to earth? I think it's a combination of two things, or there's two things that I do that I think is very helpful. One is just having very solid relationships with friends and family. It's important to have people in your life

that knew you before. Totally. You know, you were whatever. Who still see you that way. Right, who don't think of you as a big deal. Yeah. Right. Like, it's funny, I brought my mom once to one of my events

and, you know, afterward, like, we were hanging out backstage afterwards, and I was like, so what'd you think? How was it? She was like, don't take this wrong way, but I was really fucking weird. Yeah. But that's good. It's good, yeah, it's totally good.

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through that room? What's the feel? What's the vibe tear is going to come through that room? What's the feel? What's the vibe? The good news is you don't have to know in advance. Patrick Florida and his design team at their two design locations in Cyprus and the Woodlands or your living room can help you make all those decisions and give you a lifetime warranty. 281-370-8022. So what year did you meet your wife? I met her 2012. So it was interesting to me also because I see this myself. When people had a peak, like a success peak, they get rid of those people, right? And they marry someone else who's like they like marry up or not like what I would think about. Sure. Right. But what they see and perceive is like a status symbol for themselves.

You know what I mean? Which is so gross. It is. Well, it's interesting because this is one of the things I talk about in my dating book, is that it's toxic to see most people, most people who have poor relationships, it's because they see relationships as status games. It's because they don't feel like they're something. It's more because of themselves. And you see so insecure. They feel inadequate themselves.

And so as a result, they see relationships in terms of like, I don't know, yeah, status. Scoring points on a scoreboard. And they're like, oh, well, she looks like this and has this background so that makes her more, you know, a better catch than this other person, you know, and it's...

It's a hundred percent and I see it, that happens almost always, by the way. Not, it's not the exception at all. Yeah. And I mean, it's, I think it's because usually that person, and if you get to know that person, you can see that deep-sated insecurities. Yeah. That's why they're doing that, right? Yeah, it's because you use that person. And if you get to know that person, you can see that deep-sated insecurities. And that's why they're doing that, right? Yeah, it's, I always try to be aware with myself

is that it's more likely than not that this is gonna go away at some point. You know, maybe it takes five years, maybe it takes 25 years, but at some point, I'm just gonna be a random dude. But you're never gonna be a random dude. And I'll tell you why, because you already had the success behind you

to say you had this big, you had this book, you had this movie that was made on your life and your book. Like, even if you don't have the, you know, the, I guess the very, the success that it's at that level at that moment, you still are successful because you had it already. Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense?

Sure, but it's... That's why you were bad example. Let me keep telling myself that. Okay, okay, go ahead. It's very important for you. You asked how I keep myself grounded. Okay, go ahead. But I do think it is important to keep that awareness that this, it go like because I'm sure if girls you meet girls all the time. Yeah,

it's but you're not as in forefront. I know you're not like in the in the front as much as yeah, but the movie. Well, yeah, I mean, we'll see. We'll see. But it's it's I try to keep that awareness in mind that this is likely temporary. And I'm sure we're going to talk about Will Smith at some point, but Will. I was going to go right into it. Okay. So Will's grandmother has a fantastic line in the book. Let me just say something because I don't know if people know, but Mark wrote Will's

huge biography, autobi biography called will. Yeah. And I'll think most, I don't think there's everyone know that. I don't think it's like common knowledge that it was you who wrote that with him. Yeah. I mean, it's, if you open the title page, my name is there in a much smaller font. For people who read the book, he's not exactly a love, a beloved person these days. Right. No, no, it's complicated with him, but with him. But you said his grandmother would say.

So when he first went on his first tour, so a lot of people don't know, he was a hip-hop star in the 80s before he was an actor. Doesn't everybody know that? Not our age, I think so, but. Okay. Okay. I thought about it. You know, first. First Prince of Bel Air. Yeah, but it's, yeah, a lot of kids don't know that. Okay. I've been surprised how many people were like, wait, he was a hip hop star? Like, yeah.

Oh, okay. One of the first hip hop Grammy ever. Really? Yeah. Fun fact. Fun fact, okay. So anyway, when he went on his first tour ever as he was getting on the tour bus,

his grandmother told him, she said, be nice to everybody you meet on the way up because you might have to meet them again on your way back that. That is a great line. I like that. That's a really evident I love that line. Yeah there's a lot of wisdom in that. That is a lot of wisdom in that. What I was gonna say just to finish was I'm gonna say earlier is that like you may not have relevance in that. What I was gonna say just to finish I was gonna say earlier is that you may not have relevance in that particular moment later on in life. It was a relevance, but you'll always have had the success.

Yeah, it's- Relevance and success are different in the moment in that moment in time. Yeah, I think what I mean is, the ego gratifying stuff, being recognized or, you know, getting offered contracts to do movies or TV shows or whatever. Like that will probably go away eventually one day.

But you're still young. I mean, you have a whole life. Like you're gonna have a cute, more hits. Like things keep on like elevating for you. But it's so okay. So this kind of brings a full circle of like, I feel like it's very important for my own sanity, but also my own creativity to constantly be aware

that this is very temporary, that this is probably not, because I think it's by that constant awareness of knowing that this could be temporary and this might not last. It, it, I don't know, it brings me like some degree of peace. Like, I, I feel like if, if I went, if I proceeded in my career with this expectation of like, no, this has to last or I have to become even more famous now like it would put so much pressure and Expectation on myself totally that it I'd make myself miserable. Where's it from like, okay, you know

You happen to hop on the this roller coaster here you stumbled upon it. I like enjoy it See where it goes enjoy the highs highs, enjoy the lows, whatever. But it's not gonna last, right? So. I'll keep on saying that with you then, just to make you feel better. Thank you. Yeah, I'll go.

To see if this is my delusional negativity. But listen, it works for you, right? Because it keeps you honest, and I think that you have more peace because of it. Absolutely. That's what I noticed just from the essence of you versus a lot of people I meet who are very famous and they got that the partner that's way more elevated

and famous and beautiful. And it's constantly searching for more and more and more and they're so empty and lonely and sad inside. Yeah. It's really sad. And I see it all, but it's especially for more and more and more. And they're so empty and lonely and sad inside. Yeah. You know, it's really sad. And like, I see it all, but especially living in LA, it's like all you see here. You see it quite a bit here.

And I- It's like uncomfortable. And I have to say like, being a tourist in the film industry, it was a little bit shocking and off-booting. Yeah. The way I got treated in the film in the street versus how I get treated in like my other

professional relationship. Or really? The amount of ass kissing, like, almost, like the anxiety that happens when you walk, when the talent walks into the room. It actually reached a point, it got awkward at a certain point. Like when we were making the film, you know, I'd be like, you know,

we'd have like a little bit of food backstage or like offset or whatever. And the, wow, the sandwich is really good today, you know, and it's like, we shoot another scene and then I come back 20 minutes later and it's like another tray of sandwiches is there. I'm like, I didn't need that. I ain't, but there's some PA who's like,

oh my God, Mark said he likes to sandwich, he's gotta go get more sandwiches, you know? And it's, it actually, I'm really glad that the shooting only lasted about 10 days because I started getting uncomfortable. Like it, I became almost hyper aware of the things I was saying or doing around other people because I knew they were putting so much weight

on my words and actions that like if I made a joke that came out the wrong way or made a comment, you know, a snide comment about something that isn't really a big deal to me but I'm just kind of making a comment, a snide comment about something that isn't really a big deal to me, but I'm just kind of making a comment. I don't know, just like everything was being blown out of proportion. Totally.

And it made me think, I'm like, God, like I don't even know how, like if you were like Tom Cruise or somebody like, I was gonna say how the fuck do you live? How do you live? That's why, I was gonna say, like how do you live when you're actually like a real a, like I'm gonna ask you about Will and the cycle?

Because it's so awkward and off-putting. When I first moved here, I was an assistant at a place called Three Arts. It's like a management company because I was like really super young and at the time, I'm sure you remember, those jobs still is super coveted. These assistant jobs for these top agents

and managers and bullshit like that. And I literally lasted seven days. I could not do the job because of the bullshit that was around. I could not stand it. Everyone's kissing each other's ass. I couldn't, like the kind of messages that we were getting from the agents have how to like deal with the clients. Yeah. Like doing this shit shit, we would have these people, I'm not gonna mention her name, she'd call, and she'd be like, can you order flowers? I have to do this thing, and I would be like, and I'm Canadian, I just moved from Canada at the time. I'm like, well why are you calling me to order the flowers?

Like you could have just called the florist. Like I didn't understand the kind of nonsense that really goes on. And I saw it, and in six days I was like, oh my God, this is such bullshit. And how to live in that world is so awful. Yeah. It's like not, it's not for, it's not for me.

But anyway, okay, I just wanted to kind of like put my little two cents in, because I, and I've been around a lot of these people, and it's uncomfortable for me to even watch how people deal with them. Yes. And like how they have to like have to, no wonder so many of these people are anxious and nervous and hyper-aware and because everyone's staring at you 24 hours a day.

It's crazy. So to bring it to Will, how did you even get to the place where it was like, hey, Will Smith wants to write a book? How did you even get to the place where it was like, hey, Will Smith wants to write a book? Like, how did that even happen? Well, it's interesting. So I think to kind of answer our own question here, what I learned, what I noticed rather about Will

and the people around him after a couple of, spending a couple of years around everybody, there's like layers to an onion. So if you're a random person off the street or somebody that he's meeting just very casually in a professional situation, a PA on set or an assistant in a meeting or something like that, there's a certain kind of, you get like celebrity version of Will, right? So he's gonna be very friendly and charming,

but it's gonna be very impersonal. You know, it's an interaction that he has a thousand times a day. Anytime he goes out in public, people recognize him, scream, you know, they're fans, whatever. That's kind of the outer layer. If you get to a place where it's like, okay, you're a person that he's gonna see and work with repeatedly, there's a little bit more comfort there

and a little bit more authenticity, like he will open up a little bit. But it was funny, actually, you know, working on the book with him, I honestly feel like it took maybe three or four months before I even started getting like actual real material. And I, at the time I found it kind of frustrating and I thought it was him, you know, I'm like, wow, it's kind of hard to get him off autopilot.

He's done so many interviews throughout his career. But then I realized I was like, you know, it's, I think it's more that I, in hindsight, I think it's, I had to kind of earn my way in. You know, it's like, I had to stick around for three or four months and show that I was trustworthy, that I wasn't gonna, you know, that I was reliable, that I got along with his team, that his family members liked me before he'd kinda go to that next level. What is the next level?

The next level is, I think, probably the first level that it's actually him. Yeah, I'm right. You're interacting with him. Which is what though, because I don't believe that he's that affable. Hey, look at me. We saw that already would happen.

Yeah, yeah. A lot of times when people have that... He's a complex individual, like anybody. For me, it took, yeah, I'd say maybe the fifth or sixth trip I did with him. First of all, it took, I think, probably four trips for me to just end up in a room with him one on one for more than 10 minutes.

There are always people around. Who is around, like who are the people? Always. Personal assistants, managers, family members. He's always, that dude works. family members, he's all like that dude works. It was so hard. Like his schedule was so packed with so many like, you know, even if he's doing a movie on the off days,

he's doing some sort of ad thing for something in Japan and he's got a meeting for a charity. He's meeting kids at a local university for some charity that he's got a meeting for a charity, he's meeting kids at a local university for some charity that he's doing a thing for, like there's always something, always. There's meetings. Is it, like give me a day in the life of a coffin? It's hard to pick, like, well, I think,

it's hard to give like a typical day. I'd say that there's two different ones. You know, if he's making a movie, it's very I'd say there's two different ones. If he's making a movie, it's very different than when he's not. When he's making a movie, it's the movies, the full focus, and the rest of us are just trying to fit ourselves in until he's got two hours off here. He's got an hour here. But those situations are hard.

It actually got to the point. By the second year I worked with him, I kind of told his manager, like the manager who's of the book project, I told her I was like, look, like, if he's on set, it's not even worth me coming because he's, even if I do get FaceTime with him, he's so distracted and like we're not getting high quality time, we're getting interrupted constantly, that it's really not worth me being here. So yeah, when he's doing a film, it's like it's full on 12 hour days, 14 hour days, super intense meetings all the time.

When he's not doing a film, it's a lot more free-flowing. It's more fun. He's got a pretty, not gonna surprise you. He's got a pretty awesome life. Really? You know, so, you know, there'll be, it'll be hanging out at home for a few days and then he'll have, there'll be some event in like France that he's

MCN or appearing at so he'll fly to France and then he'll spend a week there, he'll do you know, maybe a couple of events there and maybe bring one of his kids out and hang out on a yacht for a couple days and then he'll go to Miami for a week. And it's all very like kind of seat of your pants. Flu, yeah, it seems fluid. Like there's no- Yeah, it's very fluid. There's always something going on everywhere he goes. There's somebody wants something.

So. And where did you fit in? Like, how did you have to like have a look? How did you have a life if you have to work around his life? Great question. Right. You know, it worked well because I'm very, I like chaos a little bit. You know, I'm not super structured in my life. You're malleable, I guess.

I'm very malleable. I'm not huge on routines. So, so like habits and hustles not really. I mean the hustle for sure. Habits I'm working on. Yeah, yeah. You got the first part. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, it's funny because a couple of people on this team told me really early on they're like, if this is going to work, you need to be flexible. Because it's yeah, there's crazy stuff, schedules getting erupted. I mean mean there were times like I got flown, I would get flown out. There's one time I got flown to Atlanta and I basically just sat

in a hotel for three days and they're like yeah, he doesn't have time and then you know got sent back to New York. So, it's what you do, you get to sit there and wait for him or can you go and work out, can you go for lunch, can you go for whatever? Yeah, I mean, it's, but if they call you, you gotta come right back. Yeah, it's, you're kind of on call basically. And look, it's not the worst thing in the world. Like they put me up in the St. Regis and I'm like ordering room service. Right, right, right.

You're not at the double tree, you know? Exactly, exactly. I'm waiting for you. You know, I'm being taken care of. Right. And at that point, I was working on my other books, so I was actually perfectly happy to sit in the hotel room and write for 10 hours a day,

with no other obligations. So, you know, I had to learn how to be very flexible. The biggest thing for me was to learn how to not take things personally, because especially being around such a prominent person early on, so this is a funny story. So the first time I wrote anything for him, yeah, which anybody who's a writer and author has published anything, like you know the insecurity

that comes with writing and something. So he and I had had, I think, a few meetings, and there was one story that he and I both really liked, and I decided I was like, I'm just gonna write up this story, like two or three pages, and I'm gonna try to write it sounding like him. It was kind of my first shot at sounding like Will.

And so I wrote this up and flew out to meet him. He was shooting a movie who's in Columbia actually. You just flew to Columbia? Yeah, okay. Carter Hanna, yeah. So go meet him on set. I'm like, hey, you know, so I wrote this thing at this point, it's still early in the process. So I don't realize how insane his schedule is and how unavailable both physically and mentally. He is what he's on set at a film. So I'm like super excited. I'm like, hey man, I wrote this thing. I want you to check it out.

And he's like, yeah, yeah, leave it here in the hotel room. I'll check it out, next time I get a break. I'm like, okay, cool. And like, leave it on the desk in the room. And he goes back to film set and I like go to lunch or whatever. And it's, I think shooting is going to break at like 2 p.m. So that's when he's going to read it. And so I'm like, looking at my watch, I'm like super nervous. Like, oh god, I hope he likes it. I'd shown it to his manager, his manager loved it. She was like, it's great. Don't worry. He's going to love it. She was like, it's great, don't worry.

He's gonna love it. Like, okay, cool. So two o'clock comes around. He goes back to his hotel room. I'm like, all right. You know, waiting any minute, I'm like, literally just sitting in the lobby. Like, all right, any minute now, I'm gonna like get called up there.

We're gonna start talking about it. 230 comes. Three o'clock comes. By this point, I'm like freaking out. I'm like, oh my God, you know, it doesn't take an hour to read three pages. Like, there's a problem here, he's not happy. I'm gonna get fired.

Like, this is, shit's gonna hit the fan. You know, I'm like pacing in circles. I'm like, oh God, like, well, it was fun. Well, it lasted. Right. You know, 330 is still nothing from him. Finally, it's like four o'clock. He comes out of his room, goes back to set, and then his manager comes out, and I'm like, what happened? She's like, what do you mean what happened? I'm like, what happened? Like, she's like, what do you mean what happened? And I'm like, well, I left the pages for Will. Like, it's like, I don't know, I didn't hear from him. Like, did something go wrong?

And she's like, she's like, start laughing. And she's like, no, he took a nap. Like, she did. I'm like, he didn't read anything. Oh my God. I'm freaking out. I'm freaking out the whole afternoon. I told her, I was like, I've been pacing in the lobby

for two hours because I'm thinking that he's like reading and she just started laughing and she's like, he was up till 5 a.m. shooting last night. Like, he hasn't slept. She's like, it's not you. And I'm like, oh, okay. Okay, exactly. That is really funny.

Deeply first read your stuff. When it did you like it though? Yeah, it went great. Okay, exactly. That is really funny. Deep re first read your stuff when it did like it though. Yeah, it went great. It went crazy. It's a problem. Yeah, yeah, it honestly like our, his and I working relationship was fantastic. When you saw how often did you see him? Like was it? Yeah, the problem was getting FaceTime.

That was honestly the biggest challenge of that entire project. A key and I, we get along really well personally. We meshed really well professionally. I think our skills complemented each other really well. It's the, I'm very good at theme and structure and outlines and understanding, this idea should come after this idea. Whereas I really struggled to sound like him on the page. Whereas he was great, like, you could, I could go to him and I'd be like, hey, right, that story you told me yesterday, like, can you write like a one-pager in your own words?

And he could write it and it would be great. Like, it would be fantastic, and I could literally just copy and paste that in so what I was working on. Really? Yeah, so what we ended up with was I, we did the outline together, and then I did the first draft, and then he went through and revised his own.

Stories and nested it? His own style and language onto it, and added little details and things like that. So he like embellished it, you know, kind of the way I thought about it, it was like if we're building a house, it's like I laid the foundation and built the framing, and then he went through and like painted it

and decorated it. Right, put like yeah, exactly, put his touches on it. Yeah. But did you, like how often But how many times did you actually see and were you seeing it for big chunks of time? Was it like five hours? Cause you need to get the stories out of town. Yeah, it was.

And you need to get the nuances. It took a while to kind of, so early on, it was, they would just kind of fly me out to tag along with him randomly. And that was useful for maybe like two trips. Right. But this is two years you said of your life doing this, right? Yeah, well, I worked with him on an off.

So we started in 2018 and the book came out end of 21. So it was three, it was a three year project. Yeah, that first year it was a lot of just kind of tag along, which I think there was some utility in that just because it's such a foreign world. I used to call it Willie World because it's like you're in an alternate reality when you're around somebody that famous,

like the security, like they come in and out of hotels in ways that you didn't know you. Like I mean, how? So I didn't realize this, but pretty much every five star hotel, every high-end restaurant, every airport, major airport, there are secret entrances. Yeah, the back doors and stuff like that, right? Yeah.

So it's, we would, you know, he came to New York once for an event and we left the event through some backdoor, you know, tinted windows SUV picks us up in an alley, drives us to a restaurant, lets us out in an alley, they open the back door, we walk through the kitchen, and then there's a secret dining room that, and this is a restaurant that I had been to multiple times, and I had no idea, there's a secret dining room.

Was it a secret dining room? There's a secret dining room? There's secret, so high-end restaurants will have secret dining rooms for celebrities, politicians, heads of state, things like that. So they go to the kitchen, yeah. See, then the movie is all the time, that's real. Yeah, it is real. And then at the hotels, they go into the back entrance,

like people see you and the lobby, don't they walk in through? So what they would do is they'd bring him in through the service entrance. So the same place that they deliver the laundry, that's where celebrities go in. So you go in through the service elevator, they take you up to whatever your floor is, and then they've already got security on that floor to escort you to the room. So yeah, it's crazy. It's great.

Your whole life is different. Whole life. Whole life is's crazy. It's great. Like your whole life is different. Whole life. Whole life is like that. It's strange. It's also really exciting, fun. Like it's, I kind of miss it a little bit. Did you like it? Yeah, like I loved being attached to it. Like I love that it wasn't my life. Right, but you could be like the outside or kind of perched in for a few days.

Yeah, like that's why I called it Willie World. I used to tell, you know, when they would call, I used to tell my mom, my wife, I'd say, you know, I'm gonna go visit Willie World for, I'll be gone for a week probably, maybe longer. And to see nice, so how big is he? He's great. He is nice.

Did you see any like, like, obviously he's got like some deep-sick anger issues Right, you didn't see any of that No, I mean so it's interesting His his Achilles heel is and we talked about this in the book his Achilles heel is the women in his life. He feels very He feels an irrational level of protection towards Jada, towards Willow, and towards his mom.

And actually comes from his mom. So his father was a very violent alcoholic. He used to beat the shit out of his mom all the time and Will was the oldest child. And so Will felt like it was his responsibility to intervene or help or do something to stop it and he never could. I remember I'm talking to Oprah about that actually. Yeah. about that actually. Yeah, and it's really, it's interesting because that came up, that story actually came up pretty early in our interviews. And it was funny because as soon

as it came up, I was like, wow, that's like a defining component of your personality. Like that should, we should open the book with that. And he was like, really? Like, he was like, And you did, didn't you? Yeah, we did. He was like, wow, it's like a really dark thing. And I was like, yeah, but that is like the whole arc

of who your development over your whole life has been that. It's like you are the scared, nine-year-old boy, failing to protect his mother, and like all of the struggles you've gone through throughout your life are just you playing that conflict over and over again. And so yeah, it's funny, like if there's one thing that could set him off, it would be attacking one of the women in his life. Like it's a very irrational trauma- He didn't get attacked. I mean, Chris Rock hardly attacked her

by saying something about the bald head or about pro-peach. I don't know. But it was, did he seem like a good dad? Was he nice with his kids? Was he nice? Did you spend time with her too? Yeah, I spent time with everybody. Were they all traveling with him?

Or did they all travel? They come in and out. So he's on the road all the time. And so Willow or Tray would travel with him for a week or two. Jato would come out for a week. And then he'd go home for a few weeks or a month like they're all very You know, and they all have their own careers too. So everybody's pretty transient. Yeah They're all a little bit like nomadic, but they they convene in a lot of places together. So I

Like you never saw him lose his temper or anything like that. No, but see, it's one of those things that he probably should lose his temper more often, because if he did, then- That's what happened. Exactly. Yeah. You know, he's one of those people. It's like, it's like chronic, nice person syndrome.

Like, Because he's, is he nice to- He's unbelievably nice. He's unbelievably nice. And it's funny, like, because he is, is he nice? He's unbelievably nice. He's unbelievably nice. And it's, it's funny, like, when I was, so when you hang around somebody that famous, you, you spend a lot of time waiting and idling cars and hotel lobbies and, and the only, the only people around you are the security guys. And so I got to know a lot of his security guys. Yeah.

And it's a fascinating industry because all those guys, you know, they've all worked for other celebrities. They've all worked for like heads of state and things like that. So, and they don't share stories, but like you know that they've seen some shit. And I remember, I remember I was talking to like one of the security guys and he had actually been head of security for Madonna for like 20 years. And I was like, dude, you must have seen some shit.

And he was like, you can't even imagine. He was like, if you ever, he's like, I can't talk about it. But man, if you ever wanted to write a book about some stuff, he's like, I can't talk about it, but man, if you ever wanted to write a book about some stuff, he's like, I've got some stories. But uh, he asked me, I remember, he asked me, he said, uh, he's like, have you done a lot of celebrity books? I said, no, actually, this is the first one. He's like, you've never, never worked with a celebrity before.

I was like, no, it wills the first one. And he looked at me and he said, you got the best one. Really? He is, this is why, so I came out and like after the whole slapping, a lot of my readers got kind of upset and got angry emails of like, you know, I thought you said he was a good guy and I can't trust you anymore because

how could you work with something? And it's like, yeah, whatever, go fuck yourself. So I wrote a piece and one of the things I said is I was like, look, we all do stupid things and make mistakes. But like, you know, his level of like genuine kindness and generosity, first of all, it's really remarkable and he does it even when nobody's looking. Like it's... That's what I was trying to ask you. Even when nobody's there, when nobody,

like there are things that nobody knows about that he's done that are absolutely incredible. Like it's honestly, it was very inspiring for me. Really? Yeah. Yeah, he made me want to be a better professional. Really? Yeah.

Like the things I learned from him, the book is primarily about his personal life, but I told him at one point, I was like, I was like, do these last two years have been like a masterclass on like how to, how to be a professional in an entertainment industry. Like it's, he's great.

That's amazing. I mean, also based on what happened. Have you spoken to him since that whole thing? A little bit. A little bit. You guys text each other, call each other. Can you so busy? Yeah, it's text.

You never get to get them on the phone. Yeah, we texted a little bit after it. You know, we went back and forth a few times and had some conversations. You know, I was very vocally supportive of him. And I think, I mean, I don't know. I wasn't keeping up with it, but I, maybe I was like one of the only ones.

So, he reached out and thanked me and we talked about it a bit. Oh, he did. Yeah. It did, it's so, life is so relative, right? Like you, with him, like the people don't know who you are because he's so big, right? But like you and yourself is very much like,

in your world, you're a celebrity, right? And you go to his world, I'm like, who are you? Like, what folks have you written for? Like they've been know about what you've done, you know what I mean? Is that funny? How life works like that? Yeah, yeah, it's, yeah, yeah, it's strange. It's really strange.

And I think it was weird to, I grew up watching him. So. That's right. I'm saying like he's like an icon for people like us, right? Like for us, I mean, I remember, like he like epitomized like he was a star from the hip-hop days to Muhammad Ali. There's no one really bigger than him, really, in that world.

Yeah, I mean, there's a few people. Madonna. A few people on the same level. Yeah, let's say me, but no one. Yeah, I don't think you get more famous than him. Do you think his career now is ruined, though, because of what happened? I don't think it's ruined. So I think the interesting thing about, so I think people are going to say it was ruined,

but I don't think the slap ruined it. There's kind of an unspoken truth out here in Hollywood, maybe people here in LA are more aware of it, maybe not, but, you know, the film industry, star power has been in decline for well over a decade at this point. Because of social media problems. Yeah. Social media people are, you know,

it used to be when we were young, you'd go see the new Will Smith movie, you'd go see the new Tom Cruise movie, you'd go see the new Arnold Schwarzenegger movie, it didn't really matter what the movie was. It was you'd go see the new Arnold Schwarzenegger movie it didn't really matter What the movie was it was like oh, it's Arnold Schwarzenegger. So of course. I'm gonna go see it That that's changed that doesn't exist anymore now people go see franchises. They go see the new Marvel movie or the new Star Wars movie That's exactly

So there's no mystery there's no level of mystery in people's lives anymore. Yeah, and there's why and there's no There's no level of mystery in people's lives anymore. Yeah, and there's why. And there's no, you know, the celebrity themselves is not the focal point. That's not what people get attached to. So I think there's already been a pretty steady decline of star power for a long time. And will and his people have been very aware of that.

And actually will was kind of one of the last holdouts. He was like one of the last celebrities that could still get a good turnout to movie theaters. So I think it's- That's true actually, now that you think about it, I think, but even the rock who always had like a big movie,

his last movie, Bomb, I heard. Yeah, it's- Which is not very rare for them. And what I've heard too is that post pandemic. It's like you know that whole industry is in complete chaos like nobody knows what works anymore. You know, I think the new top gun movies is the outlier. That is the only outlier. Yeah. But everything else is just kind of like everything's falling flat. Nobody knows what works. So I think, you know, I think in terms of being an A-list Hollywood celebrity, that decline

is probably going to continue, but it'll probably be blamed on the slap post-talk, but I don't think that's what caused it. I think it's just times are changing. Yeah, I mean, I guess that's true. It's just, he will work again though. I'm sure he'll do movies, he'll do other stuff and people will like it and life will go on. Are you gonna do any more celebrity books like that though?

Have you been asked to do any more? Has that book, because that book's sold exceptionally well, right? Yeah, it did really well. How many episodes? Up until the Slap. I was gonna say, up until the Slap. I right? Yeah, it did really well. How many epaedays? Up until the slap. I was gonna say, I'm gonna slap. I was gonna say, but I'm sorry Mark.

I said, go to get paid based on the royalty. I know, I got paid. So I'm sure you did. My check got written regardless. So I'm not- Did you get an upfront check? Did you get royalties also? Yeah, I got a-

Advanced. A piece of the advanced, yeah. And honestly, for him, that book money for him is- He's not doing it for the money. It, you're good, yeah. And honestly, for him, book money for him is, he's not doing it for the money. It's chum chicken. Come on, I mean, give me a break. That guy needs money.

Like, I need a whole, and he's like, give me a break. But it is funny and kind of sad to see the chart of book sales. Yeah. You can go on book scan and see the chart. And it's like, that last week in March, it just falls off a cliff. Oh, God. I think it was probably, I think it was,

it sold a million pretty fast in like a month or two. I think it was pretty close to two million probably. Wow. Worldwide, which is still amazing. But it's like your second book. Yeah. You still, you still basically though, like catapulted him by like 50 million now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, and it's, I think had the slap not happened, it probably would have been significantly higher. But, the person, I would have wanted, I would have read the book more to know, like what is inside of him. That's so surprised. That is the irony.

It's that, if people, and I wrote this in the piece that I put out as I was like, you know, if you people actually read the book, this would not surprise you. Like he had a long history in his teens and 20s of sucker punching people. Like he used to just walk up the people and punch them out of the blue that he

had people he had problems with. And you wrote that in the book. There's a whole chapter about it. And he had to learn why, you know, this is the thing at the end of the day, right? It's like, I think we got spoiled. The guy, he was such a perfect product of great PR for so many decades. So true. That we took him for granted. We sort of think that that's actually who he is. Like we forgot. So true.

He's a dude from West Philly who got in trouble for fighting. Like that's not fiction. 100% that is who he is. But his image is a fresh prince. Yeah. No matter what happens. Yeah. Like that is how people want to, because you, you, you facts are not reality, right?

I mean, so facts are not your beliefs, right? Yes. So it's like what we want to believe to be true, no matter what the facts are. Yeah. Are you going to do it? So have you still have you been asked? Yeah, I've been asked by a few other people.

You know, it's not something I'm like actively looking for. I'm open to it. I think it would have to, again, it have to be like a very, very prominent person. Like who, who would be your ideal person to write a book for? Oh, I would write the shit out of Tom Brady's book. Oh, that would be a great one.

I would love that. Yeah, I'm a big, big Tom Brady fan. Yeah, it'd have to be somebody like that. It'd have to be somebody that I really personally respect and admire. And then they'd also, one of my, when I first met with Will, one of the first things I told him is I said, like, look, for me to be on board.

By the way, I'm gonna to clip that for Tom Brady. I know them. So I'm going to send that to them. I'm talking to you already. No, no. No, but if you can hook that up, maybe I'm going to. That would be a great one. Brady is, is I think it's, you know, well, anyway, no, no, no, tell me, tell me, tell them curious. So the thing about Brady, I think, would be incredible to kind of investigate,

because everybody knows he's competitive and he's like works really hard. And like, so this is the thing, this is what I told Will when I first met with him, is I said, the thing I'm asking myself, because obviously, you know, you're talented, you're famous, you're charismatic, whatever, you're smart, you have to be all're charismatic, whatever, you're smart.

You have to be all those things. What I'm looking for is like, what is the thing that you can say that nobody else can say or 99.99% of people can't say? Like, what's the, what is the absolute unique thing? And for me, with Will, it was, he actually has this unbelievable capability of for resilience for overcoming incredible amounts of hardship

pushing himself through unbelievable amounts of struggle and pain and training and discipline. Like his pain tolerance is the highest I've ever seen in an individual. And that goes all the way back to his childhood, dealing with the family, the home that he came out of. Like the rest of us would not come out of that home. Yeah, the way, as functional as he is. So, for me, that was when I found, when I tripped upon that with him, I was like,

that's got to be the central thesis of the book. That's why it's called Will, it's not just his name, it's like. Oh, Will. It's his undying will to overcome everything. Oh, I didn't even know that, that's great. Yes, yeah. So it's, I think with Tom,

the thing that's remarkable about Tom is that everybody who's ever played with him says he's the best teammate they ever had. And I think there's such an opportunity to investigate like, why is that? What does that look like? You know, like it's because there have been a lot of huge stars in sports who have been total assholes who have had drama and beef with people Who have had left teammates and coaches with bad tastes in their mouth? Look at Michael Jordan, right?

The best in the world. Yeah. Yeah, undeniably the best undeniably also undeniably an asshole and and So what I find really remarkable about Brady is that all of his teammates just have these like gushing, you know, when they're asked about them, they just gush about him. That's an interesting one. Yeah. So yeah, it have to be somebody like that level and they'd have to be doing it for the right reasons. It's, I'm not interested in a PR campaign or whatever.

It's like they need to be bought into it. Like really care about it for the right reasons. Yeah. Okay, so what else do you work, by the way, we started off, you're like, this is not gonna be a three hour podcast, is it? I'm like, no, don't be ridiculous. No, just two and a half, two and a half, two and a half.

Two hours and 45 minutes. Okay, I'm sorry. What are you working on now that people can, besides, of course, you have your movie. That is amazing that you've got a movie deal. I mean, nobody ever gets a movie deal. The fact that you have a movie deal and they're making a movie, the movie's out. Congratulations. Thank you. What else are you working on? So I'm actually, this is so LA, but I'm a... You're open-knippin' era one. No, I'm just saying.

Making a yoga studio. Exactly. You're going to become a life coach. Yeah, there you go. And then teach yoga at night. I am Oscar yoga on the beach. That's what we're doing. Exactly. I've never thought about that. I am Oscar yoga.

That's a great hybrid, actually. Yeah, it's just my calling. I love it. That's hilarious. Okay. it. That's hilarious. Okay, we said that. I'm actually hiring in the process of hiring a video production team. Okay. I've been asking myself a lot, like what, you know, coming back to personal development. let's get back to that right. It's At a certain point as a writer it's hard to keep writing about these topics without repeating yourself It's impossible. Yeah, it's like human anxiety doesn't change. Yeah

Relationship problems don't change like 100% the same thing the same advice that worked 10 years ago works today It's gonna work 10 years from now. So just packaging it. Exactly. So I, and I think traditionally what happens to self-help authors in my position is that you kind of just end up rewriting the same book for like 30 years and caching checks. Just calling it something else. Yeah. 30 years in caching checks. Just calling it something else. Yeah, and I really don't want to do that.

That doesn't feel, it feels, it's not exciting. I'd rather retire and go do something. Forever, forever. Right. You have such ethics though. That's pretty amazing actually. So I've been asking myself, the one thing that can change is the format of the advice.

And some formats are more useful than others. So, you know, some people, the same way like some people learn, you know, visually better than reading or, you know, better to audio or whatever, some people learn better through doing with coaching versus talking. I've been thinking about like, what sort of formats are possible with video. And I've actually been really inspired with this younger generation of YouTubers and some of the creativity that's coming out with them. Like Mr. Beast and stuff? I've seen his stuff.

Yeah, like Mr. Beast, Air Act, there's a guy named Ryan Trayhan that does some really cool stuff. Oh, it's a lot of like kind of man on the street, challenges, things like that. It's really remarkable. And I feel like there's a really great pivot from that. Cause I love the content they're doing but they're primarily like 24-year-old dudes who've

not sound like an old person, but haven't really lived life. Exactly. Well, this is what's happened, right? Exactly. How about Mr. Beast, like 24? 24, yeah, 24. So, it's their content's extremely entertaining, and it's really inventive. But there's, as a 30-something-year-old watching it,

like I craved this depth that's not there. Like Mr. Beast did this video of a guy, I think he spent like a hundred days in a house. He couldn't leave the house for a hundred days or something like that. And this guy was socially deprived. Like he had nobody to talk to. He had nothing to do for months.

And I think if he succeeded, he got like half a million dollars or something. So it's gonna put his kids through college. It's like- Oh, there's other things. Yeah, it's gonna have this incredible knock-on effect for his family. Can you watch TV? I don't remember the exact rules. But the guy suffered.

It was clear. Yeah. Socially, yeah, isolation. Because Mr. Beast would go like 15, 20 days between checking in on him. And every time he came, the guy would be like, oh my god. Oh my god, so good you're here. So glad to be talking to somebody.

Really? You know? I go Google that after. It's really fascinating from a psychological perspective. So good you're here. Ah, so glad to be talking to somebody. Really? You know? I'm like, Google that after. It's really fascinating from a psychological perspective. But it, I felt like it was such a missed opportunity because, you know, Mr. Beast, we kinda just come check in and be like,

oh, okay, that's weird. And then like leave. You know, he wouldn't, he like didn't invest a game. Right, yeah. Like what is, what's the mental process that's going on here? What is the emotional process? What are the emotional struggles? How are you feeling?

It's been 20 days since you had a conversation. How has that affected you? Why don't we sit down and talk for an hour and see, obviously we'll, we're not. That's a great idea. So I love this idea of kind of using this, this YouTubey challenge format, but using it like more,

instead of like giving away more money or doing like blowing up crazy or stuff, going deep with it, right? Like, and like for instance, I think back to bring it full circle to the coaching, you know, it's like take people's social anxiety and there's all sorts of ways you can kind of coach them through social anxiety. You can take them out to a mall, have them try to get them to talk to strangers, things

like that. But what if you tell them like, hey, I'll give you a thousand bucks for every stranger you talk to. And then you kind of like film them going through that process dealing with the rationalizations, the defense mechanisms, the insecurities, and kind of like chronicle that process. Because it's, it's, what we don't like to admit is that incentive is probably the biggest lever

for behavior change. You know, like, and also money incentive, by the way. Yeah. And it's been proven by the way. Yeah, yeah. Like, if you want to change a habit, put money on the line.

And so I look at Mr. Beast, I'm like, well, he's putting a shitload of money on the line. Time. And there's, and it's super entertaining, but it's like, what if you put that money on the line on like something a little bit more productive And it's super entertaining, but it's like, what if you put that money on a line on something a little bit more productive or like developmentally interesting, right? Like, do a video of like, like one of the videos I want to do is find like a local gem around

here and maybe take a group of like 10 people and be like, all right, if you show up at this gym at 5 a.m. every day for like the next two months and do a full workout and don't miss a single day, like I'll give you $10,000. Yeah. You know, it's, and then see the motivation, see them, like, you know, because eventually they'll be that initial excitement,

but a weekend the motivation starts waning, the excuses start popping up, see who drops out, see why they drop out, interview them afterwards. That's a great idea. You know there's just so much to learn and glean from that. You have not have to, you haven't done it yet, not one video. No, I'm currently so I'm hired a few people and I'll probably hire a few more, so we're gonna probably start production next month. There's a time in everyone's life when you wake up in the morning. Take that first sip of motor oil out of that old mug, steer out the window, and realize it's time to upgrade your vehicle. CarBingo.com for people who are serious about selling their car, and where you can get a real offer in two minutes.

They'll pick up your car and you get paid on the spot. Dallity 7 Car Bingo. Or find carbingo.com today on the world wide web. Make a decision that everyone can respect. So who do you need to hire? Not to sound like you know who but. Who do you need? You know what I'm talking? It's an inside joke. So who do you need to hire to make this a reality for you?

Me and Marco way back on the stage, you could have lots of inside jokes here. Yeah. All the whole three hours. Yeah, four hours. This is not gonna be three hours. The... So... This is kind of reminds me by the way, Mr. Beast like stuck in the house for a hundred

days. You're stuck in the house for. Yeah, there's a prize after this, right? Oh, sorry. There's a circle. It's progressively getting smaller. Oh, my God, I got him. Sorry, it'll be too loud.

If we can get it, you're right. From all the hours. Okay, go ahead. So we, Oh, the team. Yeah. So this is part of the exciting thing for me. Like this is all new.

Right. Did you think of this yourself? Was this your idea? Just okay. Yeah, I just, I, I became a fan of a lot of these, these YouTube guys and I love what they're doing over the last year. I really love what they're doing, but then at the same time as,

and I think a lot of it's age, but I think a lot of it too is the background I come from the kind of the psychology and personal development. I'm just like, God, there's so much opportunity here. Yeah. There's so much opportunity. Ryan Tray and did a whole video series of him, he started with a penny on Venice Beach

and he got all the way to the East Coast. He like traded it for things. So he traded for a pen and he took the pen, traded for bottle water, sold the bottle water for $2, took that $2, bought two bottles of water, sold those like and managed to get himself. Stop it. All the way to the East Coast.

It's like a 20 video series. It's incredible. It's like one of the best things I've watched in years. And. He got from California to New York. These cars. No way. Where?

Not in New York or where do you go? To Mr. Beast. Yes, I'm saying. Okay. But yeah, I think North Carolina. So on a penny. Where did he sleep? He bought a hammock.

On the way. Yeah, he had a whole strategy. He managed to get a bike at some point, started doing door dash deliveries. With the penny. Start dog walking. Yeah, everything started from the penny and he made it all the way there. And it's it's such a cool series too because it's a real, um, well, there's a few reasons.

One is it's it's actually a very honest portrait of America. Yeah. So he goes from state to state and you really and he interacts with dozens of strangers every single day. And he's basically asking them for things, asking them for favors, asking them to buy something and asking them for support, help. And you really just get this incredible sense of like, wow, 99% of people are really good. Like they're just good people everywhere that you never hear about and you never see. And so that in and of itself is really inspiring. But then there's also this other element of, you get to see, it takes them a month

and it starts wearing them down. Like he gets visibly exhausted. Yeah, for sure. It starts losing motivation. At a certain point, I think his dad flies out and spends a day with him because he's just like destroyed. Wow. You know, so it's, it's, it's a really cool journey that you get to go on with him. And yeah, it's, it's a new format that like hasn't really existed before.

Like you could never do that on television. Never. Never. Um, that's a great, that's amazing. It's incredible. And it's, it's, you know, there's a, there's a group of guys out here in Venice, another huge YouTube channel called Yes, Siri. And it's funny because they, I met them. Um, they wanted to meet me to, they wanted like some advice. They were, me, they wanted some advice. They got a book deal and they were in New York and they were like, hey, can we get lunch and ask you for book advice? I get dozens of emails like that all the time.

I was like, all right, who are these guys? I click on their link to their YouTube channel and it's like six million subscribers. And I start watching their videos and it's the most incredible fucking thing. They have a video where they go door to door saying if you could travel to one place in the world, where would you go?

And the person like says a place. And they're like, okay, let's go. And then they find a person and they take the person to like Africa. And like, they actually do it and that's the video. Like, are you serious? Like in the moment? Yes or yes in the moment like they're just like answering the door and they what happens if that person has A job a life well, so most people turn it down because either they don't believe them or they're like no I've got so they do it until someone says okay, let's go. Yeah, and then they film it

Yeah, it's so cool. It's so cool. Yeah. That's so cool. You could imagine a production studio's legal department. I can't even imagine. I can't even imagine. That's crazy. Yeah.

Yeah. And it's the other reason I'm really excited about this format. You know, one, it's so new, it's so young, it's a new generation. You know, we were talking earlier about the generational turnover. You know, it reaches a new generation. It's fresh. It's fresh. It's a new challenge for me personally.

And it's also just like I really, and this is the last thing I'm supposed to say And it's also just like I really, and this is the last thing I'm supposed to say is somebody who just made a movie. I've done a lot of projects in conventional media. They've overall, I'm very grateful, they've been great projects, but as somebody who came from the internet, like blogging and scrappy, like creating scrappy content

doing podcasts, I find it to be very old and stodgy, and I don't, you know, I think this is the future. It is the future. And so I wanna be a part of it. And so that, that's super exciting to me. It's like finding, finding my niche to fit into in that world. So who do you hire to help you? You hire people who are production people, who are hired to find these people to story tell with you. Who do you hire?

So yeah, I've hired a producer and I've hired an editor. It's kind of like the first two key hires, and then I'll probably need videographers. I might need more production people, depending on how crazy the productions get. Do you buy a chip for this? Yeah, roughly. I have like a number that I'm willing to lose. Okay, okay, that's good, that's good.

That's good. Can't you get someone to underwrite it like a brand or a concept? Yes, so I think the idea is to get a first handful of videos out, kind of proof of concept to ourselves first. Yeah. Okay, this is something that we can scale and consistently make. And then start going and looking at brands. I mean, I already have a YouTube channel,

I get brand offers all the time. Yeah, but you have like what? Like 700,000 or something on there. Yeah, like 650. Yeah. I did my research on you. Yeah, there you go. Yeah.

So it's, you know, there are monetizations there. Like I'm not, not worried about that. Yeah, not like you need to worry, but the money. I'm not worried about that. Yeah, not like you need to worry, but the money. I'm not saying you did, obviously, you don't have to. But I'm just saying like that, you know, is that just part of the plan? Like, because it would cost, I mean, Mr. Beast spends millions and millions of dollars.

Which I think, and he actually, it's funny because when I first discovered him and went and watched all these videos, it was very interesting because it's like four years ago, he's giving people like $5,000 a year later, he's giving people like $25,000 and a year later, he's giving people $100,000. Anyway, it's worked out its way up to $1,500,000. He's spending millions of dollars per video.

I heard all the money he makes, he puts right into the production. That's why. But I think there's a diminishing returns to that. 200%. People, they don't respond any better to 100K than 10K. No, it's just a lot of money. Exactly. It's just a lot of money. Exactly. That is the main. So when is that launching that whole project? Later this year. So we'll start initial shooting next month. So we're talking it's February. Start shooting in March. So probably start posting April or May. Oh wow, Sue. Hopefully fingers crossed. I mean, it was like, you know, timelines that

what's the, there's a thing called Hofstetter's Law, which is every project takes twice as long as you expect it to, even when you account for Hofstetter's Law. Even when you account for that. That's a good one. I like that. I'm by the way, I know this has been forever. It has. I mean, I feel, I don't feel terrible,

but I feel kind of guilty because I'm like, oh, it won't be this long, but I really thoroughly enjoyed you being a guest on the podcast. Thank you. This has been great. Thank you so much. I mean, so people, if we have not read the book,

of course, he's got a lot of books. Just go check out Mark Manson. It's at your.com, right? Like the smartmance.com. Mark Manson.com. Uh, uh, Yeah. Oh.

Okay. I have the scoop of same. Oh my God. Do you also have like a hot male account? Or like, what? Wow. Or what are those? The one with the other one. No, Mark, Mark Manson.com is owned by an old guy named Mark

Manson and he won't give it to me. He's never had a website there. He's never, he's owned it since 1999. He's never had a webpage. I've offered him a lot of money. He won't take it. I've offered him Mr. Beast money and he won't take it. Are you serious?

I'm like literally waiting for this guy to die. I can't take it to get my dot call. And he's doing nothing with it. He's doing nothing with it. Well, obviously he hasn't hurt your business at all, being on a dot net. No. I mean, you are still the first Mark Manson that comes up when you Google your, your, the SEO's there. Yeah, yeah, it's working. It's working. Wow. Well, that's amazing. Thank you so much for being on this. I mean, thank you.

That's true. I can say, go check him out. He's amazing. And he's even nicer in person. I go check out his movie, Universal Studios, and that's it, bye. This episode is brought to you by the YAP Media Podcast Network. I'm Holla Taha, CEO of the award-winning digital media empire YAP Media, and host of YAP Young & Profiting Podcast, a number one entrepreneurship and self-improvement podcast where you can listen, learn, and profit. On Young & Profiting Podcast, I interview the brightest minds in the world and I turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your daily life. Each week, we dive into a new topic like the Art of Side Hustles, how to level up your

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