Habits and Hustle - Episode 239: Andrew McCarthy: How To Find Your True Self in Moments of Fearlessness

Episode Date: May 9, 2023

Do you always know what your next calling will be? If not, that’s what we are going to dive into today with guest Andrew McCarthy. Andrew Thomas McCarthy is an actor, travel writer, and television director. He is most known as a member of the Brat Pack, with roles in 1980s films such as St. Elmo's Fire, Pretty in Pink, and Less than Zero. As a director, he is known for his work on Orange Is the New Black. Andrew has had a huge life change and discusses how he found his true self in moments of fearlessness and how you can too. He also discusses how fear can hold us back, his career in the film industry, the habits he’s developed that have played into his success and so much more. What we discuss: 04:07: About Andrew 09:55: Who was Andrew close with? 12:45: Who did Andrew attempt to date? 16:31: Is Andrew still an editor? 17:09: What happened after Andrew stopped acting? 19:19: Did Andrew know he was meant to be a writer? 21:40: What was Andrew’s experience with Orange Is The New Black? 24:41: How did Andrew figure out how to work behind the camera? 29:24: What does Andrew think of plastic surgery? 33:49: When did Andrew realize he made it? 37:36: Does Andrew think he self-sabotaged himself? 45:34: What was Andrew’s most and least favorite movie to film? 50:19: Would Andrew act now? 51:12: What are Andrew’s favorite things to do? 51:53: When is Andrew’s documentary coming out? 55:22: What daily habits does Andrew have? 56:32: What kind of exercise does Andrew do? 57:51: What foods does Andrew eat every day? 01:00:08: When is Andrew’s book coming out? Key takeaways: - You don’t always know what your calling will be, as it won’t always come to you. That’s why it’s important to try out a bunch of things and see what ignites a spark in you. - The feeling of being fearless only needs to be felt for a split-second, to give you the courage to take the first step towards your dreams. - Self-sabotage is usually something we proactively do, but most of us tend to only realize it after the deed is done. Check out Andrew's New Book: Walking with Sam: https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Sam-Father-Hundred-Across/dp/1538709201 Find more from Jen: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen Thank you to our sponsors: Try Notion AI for free right now at www.notion.com/habits Get started today with Disney’s Hulu Ad Manager at www.huluadmanager.com/stream Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Of course otherwise known as my first crush. You guys may remember Andrew from the iconic films like Pretty in Pink, St. Elmo's Fire. Let's not forget Manicann or Weekend at Bernies. But he also is an award-winning travel writer, a director and a New York Times bestselling author. And today we talk all about everything from being part of the Brat Pack and the fame that came with it and had to face your fears and had to travel the world. And his new book, he actually called, he walks the 500 mile Camino de Santiago with his son Sam. We talk all about it, the experiences.

And this was actually a very interesting podcast that covered the gamut. Like I said, about fame, dealing with fame, being a parent, and so much more guys enjoy. [♪ music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing Exactly. And I'm sure everybody says this to you. In fact, I'm curious, not your son because you're kids because they're, of course, your past that. But I bet you the parents to the kids, like all are obsessed, right? With you.

I don't know about that, but I mean, I know exactly what you mean. I mean to a generation of a certain demographic of a certain generation. I am the avatar of their youth. Yeah. Me and the rest of you mean. I mean to a generation of a certain demographic, of a certain generation, I am the avatar of their youth. Yeah, me and the rest of you. You are. And then that's exactly the way I actually wrote that down and wrote the avatar of our youth, because I heard you, I think, on Rob Lowe's podcast

and he was like talking about that. And you're like, it's not really you or them, it's more about what it represents. Like you are like a representation of my youth, which is so true. I mean, I see people literally, they start talking to me in quoting lines or whatever, and literally their eyes glaze over, and they're not really talking to me. They're talking about themselves at 20 odd years old, and, you know, because also that's an amazing, wondrous moment of life when you're just sort of cussing into the world and you're just blossoming and it's like, get out of the way world.

I'm coming out here, you know, and it's an amazing moment. And we rob and I and these are the members of that kind of the Brad Packer, whatever represent that to those people. So they look at them, they see me and whoever else. And really they're just seeing them their own use and they've they project that good will and Affection for themselves onto me and or us and you know it took me decades I have to say to accept that as a wondrous Kind of gift because for a long time. I just thought I was like, oh come on

That's so you know it's in the past or whatever, you know and but to finally, you know I guess it means just getting very old when you turn around and accept that youth is sort of a blessing, you know? You know, it was so funny. And when I started, when I knew you were coming on the podcast, I started to of course, delve into all your stuff.

Like I didn't realize all the other credits, like that you know, that you're a director and you're a Times best seller, all these things, which we'll talk about in a second Which I found so interesting though about this whole year hole I guess how you described the Brad pack and your experiences were so Antithesis to what I thought it would be right because the way you perceived it was super negative But yet like I felt like it gave you guys this like level of cachet that just made and that helped your career not hindered your career. Do you

know what I mean? I do. I mean over time looking back now if I had just if I'd been in the exact same movies I was in and the Brad Peck label did not exist I would have just been some guy who was in some 80s movies and you know I'm forgotten. Whereas it has elevated all of us into this iconic statue of pop culture to be representative of that moment in time. And so it's in Bradpack. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's that.

But at the time, the New York magazine article that it all sprang from was very negative and very pejorative and very kind of scathing. And so we hated it. And it also, you know, I've recently, I'm in the process of finishing up a documentary about the Brad Pack, where I went and I, back and I talked to a whole bunch of the gang. And all of us had the exact same experience at the time, which was, holy shit. We just got some mud slung at us hard. We had no idea how to respond to it.

And in many ways, we perceive it's be limiting to our careers. It's like Marty Scruzezi, he seems to be a burger, not gonna call up somebody's in the brat pack. And that may have been true, but again, over time, it's going to be this iconic fuzzy phrase of, you know, embracing, you know, this moment in youth. And so it's going to be a beautiful thing. But at the time, it was very...

Everyone ran from it or tried to run from it, everyone hated it, and it was cast in a spursion. And so it was a difficult thing at the time to live. It then, I'd say, some people turn the corner on and more quickly than others, like Rob is very, Rob was very savvy, you know, media wise, and he kind of realized, oh, the public kind of love, love this. And so he turned and embraced it very quickly, whereas I just kind of tried to, you know, you don't ever want to be labeled or boxed when you're an actor, particularly when you're young, you're just starting, and suddenly you're labeled as something, and it's like, it's limiting, or so felt at the time, you know. But like I said, you know, and over the ensuing decades and centuries and it's like it's limiting or so felt at the time you know. But like I said you know and over the ensuing decades and centuries it's become something quite other and is you know a beautiful thing now but at the

time yeah as you said it was we hated it and it was not helpful. No what I find also it was just like it was actually so eye opening because I also like again like I was a kid I was like, or 11. I was really young when all those movies were really out and even mannequin, which is later. But I found, like, you know, like, it's what I found interesting is your experience even with the other people in the broadcast, right? Because it, in like, as a person watching these movies,

I would think you guys were all great friends, hanging out all the time, doing all these things together. You and Rob Lover, hanging out and you and Judd Nelson or whoever, and yet you weren't really friends with anybody. Nobody besides the movie. That's when you went on your own. That speaks more to my own sense of being a bit of a loner than anything else.

And I happen to live in New York too, I'd everybody else sort of lived in LA, I think. But and the second, you have to even, the second the Brat Pack label came out, everyone just kind of went ffff and scattered because it was perceived as a negative thing. And you know, all those youthful ensemble movies kind of stopped that instant that that happened because nobody wanted to be perceived as part of any kind of gang or a brat. And so there was a lot of camaraderie, I think, with a bunch of the guys before that,

but after that, it really that ended it in a large way. The very sort of naming of it, you know, dismantled it. It seemed like when in your book, the brat, brat, like you seem like you spoke very fondly just now, again, like a bra blow and all that. Who else were you the closer, if you were people that you were close with, were you close with Jug Nelson?

I wasn't close with any of them at the time. And I didn't, Robin, I would not, Robin, I didn't really particularly get along back. I just was texting for five minutes ago because there's an article in the paper today about his new show with his son, and I know his son as well. And we were just texting back and forth, you know, I was congratulating him, but that never would have happened

even 10 years ago. You know, I, Robin and I, we did not get along, we were just very different guys, Rob loved being a fabulous movie star. That's not who I am. And so, and I have great affection for Rob, because he's so shameless in this way that's so delightful. He somehow gets away with it, you know, in this way.

And I just shake my head and get him all out of his shamelessness. And it's somehow so charming on him, you know. And winning. But I didn't really, I wasn't close with any of the guys. You know, Judd Nelson always scared me. I was sort of like, I didn't know what his deal was. Emilio seemed like the kind of savvy Hollywood insider. And I just felt like some kid from New York

who didn't really know what was going on. So I get in my car, I've never even met. So even though he's my brat-packed brother, you know. But, so it was, you know, it wasn't what it was perceived to be at the time. But like I said, going back and doing the documentary and seeing everybody again, to realize all this affection exists now in a way between us was kind of, you know, a wonderful embracing of a past that I ran from. And even the fact that you did endate the girls, like I assumed before reading this stuff and like

delving in that I would assume that you would have dated Demi Moore, dated Alishini, dated all these people. And like, I was googling and I'm like, and Andrew McCarthy, Demi Moore. Andrew McCarthy, who happened. Yeah, you're not gonna find it. No, you're not gonna find it. No, you're not gonna find it. Like, zip, the only thing I found is that you hit on Courtney Cox where he's read about that and it never happened.

You like went on a date with Elizabeth Schew and she never called you again or something. That's all I found. Yeah, you know, a lot of epic fails there, huh? Uh, you know. But, you know a lot of epic fails there, huh? But you know I was never yeah, that just it wasn't my experience in my life I was living this sort of different life back here in New York and stuff. So I didn't That just didn't happen, you know I did have a big crush on their winning ham when we were doing that film the same almost fire. So

I saw you wrote that. And like, but she was married with kids. That was what I thought she would work out. Yeah, so that didn't work out. Who else did you like attempt and then never, ever, you know, I guess, score with, so to speak? Oh gosh, I don't know. I think you kind of hit the big ones there. I don't know. And like, didn't anyone come after you? Like again, like this is like my perception was totally flees. Like I was expecting a totally different, you know, research manuscript when I got it.

You know, I thought, oh my god, he would for sure be with this, this, this, every single starlet, every single model. And no, I didn't find anything. I mean, you know, there was, I found you with a stripper. That's all I found. Yeah, there were, there were a few moments, but I mean, I wasn't, I also was not letting a very public life. I, I tried, you know, back in those days, you, because, you know, we, that's why I'm not very comfortable in a certain way on social media.

Back when I was, back in the day there, the day there, we're talking about, you did everything you could to keep your private life private. You never exposed anything if you could help. The reason you hired a publicist was to say no to people. So the idea of broadcasting, who you're seeing or whatever was just an athlete to me, and I did everything I could to keep my private life private. Now I mean no one cares, And I just, you know, I did everything. I could to keep my private life private. Now I mean, no one cares. So I mean, you know, it's different. I care, I care, I care.

It must be crazy, right? It's a totally different world right now because right now the biggest commodity is everybody wants attention, right? Everybody is like striving for attention. That's why social media is so rampant. Everyone wants to, they show everything from what they eat to like if they're like walking in a mall,

like everything requires some type of promotion, right? It's like literally the opposite of how it used to be. It is, it's 180 degrees different. Yeah, I mean, you're in a small, there's something in, you know, some of that's a bit sort of desperate and sad, but some of it is I think interesting. I see my kids and they're of a generation where there's kind of this disclosure of things that I would have never Revealed to people that were in my intimate Friends and family, you know that there's something

Lovely about that though that kind of unabashed disclosure of certain that kind of unabashed disclosure of certain foibles and insecurities or whatever that allow other people to kind of go, oh, wow, you have that famous person? I said, I have that too. And so it makes people less alone in a certain way. So I think there's a lot of things that we all complain about about social media. But there's some aspects of it.

I think that are quite interesting and almost beneficial. I think the biggest downfall of social media, of course, is that we don't get bored anymore. We don't daydream. We just constantly default to a device because we can't have a moment of stillness. That's probably the, but what's out there on social media doesn't particularly bother me. You know, you just everyone self-sifts through that crap. I think, yeah, well, I think it depends.

I mean, if you have the ability to curate what you're looking at and following, you can do that. But yeah, to your point, everything is about the next dopamine hit, right? And then eventually those dopamine hits become less and less. So you need more and more. And for kids, it's actually difficult because of the compare game, right? Because you're looking at everybody else

and think that your life isn't as good as someone else's. Because social media isn't real, it's not real life. It's like snippets of people's lives, right? Yeah, I mean, it's, of course. It's a totally different thing. So first of all, I had no idea that you were this very well established travel writer, you like where they edit, are you still the editor at large

at National Geographic Travel? No, that magazine folded a couple of years ago. So I'm not, no, but I'm... How long have you been in a fold? I mean, like, like, a long many years ago? Traveler folded? I don't know, two or three years ago. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I stumbled into travel riding back in like 2004 or something like that. So almost 20 years now, and yeah, it was a big part of my life for a long time. And travel really changed my life in a real way.

So I, and then I started writing about it and stuff. So that was a real wonderful kind of creative rebirth for me when my acting was sort of not of very much interest. So how did it kind of evolve? What happened? So you were kind of like after week in at Bernies and all these other 80s movies. Well, what happened? I walked across Spain. That's your new book, though. Well, I did in that book. Yeah, but 25 years, 27 years ago, I walked across

Spain for the first time on the Camino de Santiago and this old pilgrimage route for 500 miles. And that really changed my life. I found the short answer is I it was revealed to me how much fear had sort of dominated my life in a way that I was unaware of. I was unaware of it, even existence in my life, until I had a moment in Spain where it was absent. And I suddenly felt like myself in a way that I rarely ever did, in the way that I wanted to feel.

I felt, my wife is Irish, she is all these good Irish sayings in one of them is I felt like myself from the toes up. And in that moment in Spain, when I sort of realized I was somehow free of fear for a brief instant, it changed my place in the world, utterly overnight. And so that led me to keep traveling. And because I like that feeling, so I wanted more of it, so I just kept traveling, traveling the world and traveling alone a lot. And that helped me to grow and sort of feel the further away from home, I got the more at home and myself I felt. And

so then I started writing about it. And then I got successful quickly writing about it because of two reasons. Because of A, that I knew the travels are profound life changing thing. And that and I also knew that tell a story, you know, don't sell a destination, tell a story. So I became a successful travel writer, you know, by accident really, and I loved it. I loved it for a long time. So, and now I'm not most magazine's are gone now, so you know, most travel magazines now are just sort of lifestyle magazines. Yeah, but anyway we had a big, so that started me writing and then I grew into books and

and the like, you know, and then I just did like walked across Spain again a couple of years ago with my son this time. Keep coming back, you got plenty of space! Oof, not how you would have done that. You like working with people you can rely on, like USAA, who has helped guide the military community for the past 100 years. USAA, get a quote today. When you download the Croger app, you have easy access to savings every day. Get

the most out of weekly sales and receive personalized coupons toward your favorite items, all while earning one fuel point for every dollar spent. Because shopping at Croger, whether in-store or online is easy, and saving money is even easier with the Croger app. So get the most value out of every trip every time. Download the Kruger app now to save big. Kruger, fresh for everyone, must have a digital account to redeem offers. Restrictions may apply, see site for details. So did you, like the evolution of that was that when you, like, just over

acting, like, did you, what were you, what were you, what were you, right? Did you know you were a writer, like, before and you just kind of writing, did you know you were a writer before? And you just kind of, or did you kind of just kind of, like you said, stumble upon travel, then you started writing, but it, and then recognize that you had this gift of writing. Like, what was the, No, I never wrote anything.

I can school, I was terrible at school. I mean, I just smoked pot every day at school. I was terrible at school. I was kicked out of college after a couple of years. I had no interest in writing or reading. I didn't, you know, I don't think I read a book till I was 30, you know. And, and I mean, I remember where I was when I was in Saigon alone and I spent the day, you know, with this kid who drove by me on his

little scooter and he insisted I hop on his scooter and he was gonna give me a ride. And so I did. And I spent the day with this kid. He showed me around Saigon and like, you know, we showed me around a sagan and like you know We showed me like where his father was arrested and where his mother the garden that she used to public guard She can anyway He I spent this really interesting day with this kid and I went back to my hotel and I was really uh still very jazzed up and I didn't know what to do and so there was just a piece of hotel stationery and a pen and I just wrote it down

and I wrote down what happened and I had the feeling I finished writing that down and I just sat back and I just went like, there I am, there I am. And it was the same feeling I had when I was 15 years old when I walked out on stage in the first play I ever did is the artful dodger in high school and I suddenly felt like, oh my god, there I am. And it was that exact same feeling. And so I just started writing stuff. And I did, I wrote for years without showing anyone anything because I just did it for me to make me feel grounded, I suppose, or whatever

the word would be. And anyway, I had no intentions or ambitions with it until one day when I did. And then that's what happened. And it just sort of grew from there. And you know, I love I'm tend to be a bit of a loner, so I was very happy to, I'm very happy to sit alone in a room and write all day, you know. Right. It seems like it would be more your personality style, right? If that's something that you're naturally conditioned to do.

And then like the directing, so you also like, again, you directed Orges of New black. Did you, you said it in your one of your books or your book, like when you directed Origen's black for Netflix and they basically put the whole thing up on one day, does that mean you directed the entire series or the entire season? No, no, I directed like, I did like three of those a year, you know, so I would just do, and I directed a bunch of, you know, I probably directed, I guess about a hundred hours of television out at this point, and, you know, television directing is an interesting thing.

You know, that was again something I totally fell into. I had no ambition to be a TV director, but an orange is a new, but I directed a couple shows just because I was curious and some shows that I was on, and then a friend of mine was doing this new show on Netflix. And this is before anything had come out on Netflix, and Netflix sent you DVDs. That's how the business they were in. And so she couldn't get anyone to direct on her show because it was like, what's Netflix?

And it's this thing they're going to stream it, and you're like, well, what's streaming? What channel is it going to be on? Anyway, I just couldn't grasp this. And they couldn't get anyone to direct it. So they asked me to direct several of them. And then, of course, it becomes this, what it becomes. And suddenly, I was a very good director

because I directed a bunch of this show. And nothing makes you good as success. So, and then I sort of fell into this being a TV director for a decade, which I still do. I just finished doing a show yesterday. And- Which shall. So TV director, the Blacklist, which is is something I've been doing for 10 years now and

You know TV director is interesting but ultimately the end of the day being a TV director is not that Grannifying a work in my opinion, you know, it's like you're just servicing someone else's vision really, you know So it's nice. It's nice living and it's nice and it's interesting. It's like going to the gym, going to director gym. I always call TV directing. Like, you know, I mean different shows have different styles, so this week you're doing this style, next week you're doing that style, it's like this week you're doing chess, next week you're doing arms, you know what I mean? And so you're getting great shape, but is it ultimately that creatively satisfying? Maybe not. So, so first of all, like so how do you have been like, you said you just fell into it

because they needed somebody, but how do you even know the, I mean, yes, you did movies on the other end of the camera, but how did you even know how to do a director movie? I mean, a TV show, let alone do a series,

all these things, I know that you did, like I said, the blacklist and all these things, but even when you started with the oranges and new black, what, how did you even know day one? How do we even do any of it? Could you remember watching people?

I just said, well, that's a good question. You know, I just spent so much of my life on a set. So I knew how to be right. I was nowhere. I was more comfortable than on a set. And I know how much time is wasted on a set. And I hate waiting around on a set. And what makes you a good TV director, frankly, is being fast.

If you have an idea on top of that, you're Orson Wells. So I was very fast and efficient and decisive. To be a good TV director, you have to be decisive. And so I mean, I just know how making TVs and movies work. It's just what I've done since I'm 19 years old, so I just inherently knew that. And so, and you just have to take the floor

It's you know, it's gonna fake it so you make it, you know, it's seven o'clock 50 people look at you and go what are we doing and you have to go okay? We're here. We're doing this and you know two minutes later you kind of go was that a good idea? But you know you just have to take charge so it was just something I found I had a natural aptitude for And you know, I have every act of neuroses is, so I was found it easy to talk to actors. The secret sauce that I found in my directing was that I had a visual style, which I had no way of knowing until I actually started to do it.

And I love it. It's interesting. I'll have to a point. Would you ever want, because you like writing, did you ever have your written a screenplay, like a movie to be made? Or I know you're doing you said the Bradpac documentary, but that's not. Yeah, no. You know, I write for me, you know, and I don't, I'm someone who likes as few votes as possible in my life. And I like to do what I like to do creatively. And so I haven't up to this point because I like writing for me.

And I have so much history and baggage and disappointment and heartbreak in the show business that I didn't want other people weighing in. And I don't want some 24-year-old executive giving me notes on my thing. It's like, really dude? Come on. And so I write for me. And so I write books for me. I wrote travel for me, you know, and I,

because I enjoy it and it's what I want to do. And I'm going to do this. I go out and make a living doing other things, but I write because I like to do it. So I've kept them separate up to now in that regard just simply because it's, you know, and no matter what I do writing wise, I'm still going to be, oh, he's an actor and he writes, oh, you okay. You know, and no matter what I do, writing wise. I'm still gonna be, oh, he's an actor and he writes, oh, you okay. You know, and there are people that are gonna respond like that, which I don't care. There's nothing I can do about that.

But I literally do it because I like to do it. I do it sort of for fun and for free. And so I've written these books and things that, you know, and they've been successful, which is great, and I'm, because it allows me to write more, you know, so I haven't married those two worlds up to this point. I mean, I may at some point, but for now I just like sort of you know I like to think something up and I'm gonna go do that and I don't have to ask anyone to go do it

And no one has to give me money to go do it, right? So you know when the worst thing about being an actor is just waiting for somebody to give you a chance to go do it You know and when I'm writing I don't have to wait for anybody to do anything I can get up and go to the can go, oh, wait a minute. And just off you go. You know, I had an idea for something and a piece about walking. And I just knew an editor at the time, and you know, I sent it to their op-ed page, and it's in the paper three days later, and it's like, boom, there you go.

Nothing existed, thought it up, did it, and there it is. And that's a wonderful thing. Absolutely. I totally understand that. You're right. It's amazing how long things actually take from the love and idea to actually being on screen. It's like years, right? Like two years. Well, that's one of the nice things in movies, particularly. Yeah. One of the nice things about TV is it's fairly quick process. You know, within a year, you can be doing TV, whereas movies can take decades.

You hear these stories of people that try to make a movie for 30 years, and overnight they're a success. But yeah, it can take a long time. Crazy. I mean, it's beyond. I mean, you say, you know. No one ever got fired in Hollywood saying no. But, you know, so, you know, it's easy to just say no, well, no, we'll think about that.

And, you know, saying yes as a risk in Hollywood. So, it gets people fired, because when things don't work. So, people tend not to want to do that too quickly. Right, right, right. Right. Right. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. speaking engagements, producing a podcast, and juggling my family commitments, you can only imagine what my calendar and inbox looks like. And that's why I love Notion. Seriously, I don't know what I would do without Notion. I use it daily to organize my meeting notes, my upcoming tasks, and project deadlines. And I'm so excited about their newest workspace edition. It's called Notion AI.

Notion AI helps you work faster, write better, and think bigger, doing tasks that normally take you hours in just seconds, which means I can finally find time for me in my busy schedule. Just tell Notion AI what to do, the more details the better, or you can sort of prompt and go from there. Have it write a blog post, make an outline, brainstorm ideas, or summarize a whole bunch of docs.

For a limited time, try Notion AI for free when you go to Notion.com slash habits. That's all lowercase letters. That's Notion.com slash habits to try out the incredible power of Notion AI today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. This is a limited time offer. Try Notion AI for free right now at Notion.com slash habits. I love how honest, why do I have to say you look exactly you have an age very like it's unbelievable. It's a sunny day out. So I mean, I have to say it's amazing.

You don't look like, I mean, you don't look like you're 25, but you definitely don't look like I've heard your 60 years old already. I know. Oh, like, where is the time? I go. Which I have to tell you, I've never blanked at any of my age. I've never blanked. It's never bothered me at all, but 60 is like, wow, that's the beginning of being old. I said, you know, I was famous for being young and always being youthful and the memory of youth. And you look at me and you remember youth. And so people can't help but be slightly disappointed when they see them. Because they go, oh, you're not 22 anymore.

So, but so 60 really made me give me pause. I mean, I'm coming to terms with it now a few months in, but for a while, a few weeks, it's just really a wallop of like, wow, that's what an interesting, you're on the, you represent the youth angst and youth culture. And yet, when, now, you think, now you're 60, however, I'm telling you honestly, not saying it because you're on this podcast, you honestly look incredible. because you're on this podcast, you honestly look incredible. I cannot, you don't look, you can pass for 40 easily. Not of course. No, I swear, did you get in there? Then I'm in the case of you had face lips like,

why do you look so young? I have never had these, it's all this stuff down here that I would love to get rid of. But, yeah, you know, I think plastic surgery is weird. I understand why everyone does it. And I understand why women particularly are forced to do it. But I always find it slightly, because you can always tell.

You can always tell, exactly. You always tell. So I find it slightly odd, because to me, what it always says is, I don't accept who I am. And that's always a little bit sad to me. You know, I have trouble accepting, and I'm not Mr. Accepting,

you know, I'm like, and I wish my face were, you know, I wish we were doing that. But not enough to alter the way I am. That seems like I, like I totally get it. And I don't judge people to do it. It's like I totally understand it and I, and fine, whatever. But, you know, up to now anyway, maybe tomorrow I'll change my mind, but up to today. No, I totally agree with you actually. I find it because you can always tell. And so what it does is you know that someone's done it and altered them. And then on top of it, then you're like, oh my gosh, you didn't like yourself. So you felt like you had to do this. So that it's like this like other layer of like insecurity that now is brought upon them. I totally understand.

Well, and it's a slippery slope too, because you start to go, well, yeah, well, there. And then I should do that. And then I should do that. It's just seems like, you know, you can't see yourself, and very, very, very, we should stop talking about this, because you only see yourself front-on, right? You can only see that, so you make it look for that angle,

but then there are other angles that most people are saying, you know, and they don't quite look right. 100% agree. I find that to be, and you don't live in LA, but it's unbelievable here, as you can imagine. Oh, it's just normal. And I like to say I get it. And women, particularly who want to keep working,

need to understand. I share it for women, for sure, because it's. Oh my God. Business, it's, you know, there's nothing more beautiful than youth, right? So if you don't have it, you know, get hired for jobs. Yeah, I heard you on like I think it was again the growl blow podcast when I was like researching all this stuff. And it was so interesting because your perspective was so at on point, I thought like on the

nose. I think he was asking you or telling you or something about like Jackie Bistek had some kind of light in front of her when you guys were doing a class or I don't know, movie. And when you guys were talking about it on his podcast and he was like asking you about it. And you're like, you know, it's funny.

When you're like known to be beautiful, like Rob Lowe or wherever, like then you become so much more hyper aware and critical of yourself because that's what you're known for, right? And you you never like that. Like that was like something to you. It sounded like that's what I liked about you. You seemed very, there was like an honesty and like a down to earthness about how you said it. Like that's not the life you wanted to have. Like you'd rather be behind it. Well, I also didn't look like Rob.

I was like, well, you're not to be a sex symbol. You're really cute. Don't you remember like every girl loved you? Don't you not remember this? You know, it's so weird because, no, I was not aware of that at the time. I'm told that it's in the hindsight. You know, I was aware that suddenly

I was sexually viable where I hadn't been a week earlier. A week earlier. But anyway, you're not aware of this stuff. It's a weird thing becoming famous quickly, pictically in youth, because stuff happens and it's weird and you treat it differently a little bit, but it's still your own life. And so you just think it's my life and now now my life's sort of like this, and this becomes normal. And it's just only with distance you realize, wow, that was quite a weird altering time. You know, but at the time, you don't think

that you're just scrambling around trying to just, you know, figure it out. What was the first moment that you knew that something changed impimited in your life? That was, you know, from a normal quote-unquote person to now being super famous. Like, what act or something happened that you're like, oh my God, like, I've now made it, so to speak. Well, I don't think I ever felt at that point like I've made it and I didn't think certainly it was super famous.

I was, you know, I was more successful than I realized at the time. Here's a not very flattering story of when I knew that my life was different. I was doing pretty in pink in Los Angeles, and I was staying in Los Angeles, staying at the Chateau Marmont Hotel, and right across the street from the Chateau Marmont was, and still is a strip club called the Body Shop, which is I can say I think it's the only strip club I've ever been to, but I was taken by a friend to this strip club which I guess is something you do when you're 21 or 22 and we walked in and we sat in the booth in the back and one of the

dancers came and saying almost fire had just come out, it's embarrassing. And I don't think it reflects very well. But anyway, she came out and danced to this theme song from St. Elmo's Fire, which was like Man in Motion, the John Paul song, which is very of its time. And anyway, at that instant, when she's dancing on the pole to, I could be a man in motion like, I'm just like wow my life is just gotten weird and That was the incident I realized That was the big that was the big moment that was your big pivotal moment when they that was the moment that kind of made me realize I guess I'm famous if the strippers dancing to the song of the movie. I meant wow

Anyway, did you did you like it like it doesn't did you like the attention or were you kind of someone who like shied away from it because you seem super You are who doesn't like you know who doesn't like being treated special. We all want Sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, you're saying I agree with you. Yeah, like you know because you see much more of like you seem very Self-aware I would say and also much more of a loner, like you're saying. So maybe the attention was kind of too great too much for a viewer. Well, I mean, who doesn't want to feel special and be treated special and be made to feel unique?

You know, they're not things that are generally very good for, you know, self-development or maturation being treated special and unique. I still like it, who doesn't. But it's probably not the best thing in the world for any of us. But so I like some of the attention. I like being attractive to people. I like getting the benefit of the doubt. I like all that stuff that you get.

But as a more of an introverted person, that kind of constant stuff tends to drain me as opposed to fuel me, whereas I would take someone like Rob, as much more extroverted than that just fuels him. The more you get, the more you grow bigger. You know, always me, it just felt like it was depleting in many ways. And it still does. So it's not something. I think I would be, you know, I'm often very, I want something, you get the same instant I pull back, you know, so I constantly have one foot on the gas and one foot on the brake, which is not a very effective way or a very peaceful way to get it to get anywhere.

So I think I still suffer from that. And I think certainly many aspects of my life would have been more successful and or more peaceful or, you know, easier on those I love if had I if I did not do that constantly. Which I still do. Is that self-sapotage horror that anything? Is that like you self-sapotage? Well that can be the result of it, can it? I, you know, maybe, maybe, you know, that's a result of it. It's, but I don't think it stems from that necessarily. I don't feel wildly, I don't suffer from imposter syndrome. I don't think or anything like that, where I don't, like I don't deserve things.

I think, you know, I don't think life is fair, and I don't think you get what's coming to you. I think life is, you know, I've been wildly fortunate in many ways. So, you know, much more than I deserve. So, but I don't, so I don't know that it was said, that was the result is a sabotage. but I don't know that's the motivation Because like you're I read like about this thing with Andy Warhol wanted to do something with you I don't remember lunch or breakfast or something and you made up an excuse why you didn't want to meet it because you got

Ain't like you had so much anxiety over it like you told I don't know you said you threw your cat up the window or something like that, or your cat like, well, you know, got lost or something. Or like just certain things like that, where it was subconsciously, you didn't wanna do something, which then of course comes into self-sabotage. And I guess the reason why I'm saying is,

like, you know, it talks about Rob Low, or you mentioned, I think, in your brat book, about Tom Cruise and the rich sweater, or something like that, where it's these people that had a lot more ability to kind of put themselves in a situation where they're much more confident and coaxured of themselves, I guess, right? Where they went on to do all these things

where you kind of shied away from it or like something else. So like you were supposed to be in some cover of Life magazine I read like in your book and you didn't you didn't want to do it. So they put Timothy Hutton in the cover or something like all these little things right where it accumulates and compounds where other people would have taken these opportunities and really kind of stepped into them and then like leverage them, you didn't take those opportunities the same way. Yeah, well, when you put it like that. The result is a self-sabotaging kind of thing.

That day you're alluding to with Tom and his red sweater and being not being in this picture of life magazine, there was a 75th anniversary of Paramount Pictures and they had a party and invited like, you know, all these legends of cinema who'd been in Paramount movies, Jimmy Stewart and Robert De Niro and Faye Dunway and Tron Heston, all these kind of huge stars, you know, to the years. And I had just done a pretty pink prepare amount. And so they invited me to come. And I just, I did feel at that day utterly out of place. And I was like, what am I doing here?

And they invited me to be in a photo with all these stars. And I demured. And so they got Tim Hutton to do it. And it was, you know, a month later it was on the cover of Life Magazine. And I kind of realized, wow, I'm not really very good at this success thing. You know, I think, yeah, I mean it says, I'm, my temperamentally, I'm not particularly suited to that kind of, I'd love to work and I'd love to be successful and I would love to have more opportunity and you had I been more capable and or interested and or willing

to play the game that's played, you know, because Hollywood like any industry, it's a small town and it's a place of relationships. And so I never was good at cultivating relationships for means to an end. If I liked you and we got long, great, and we were friends, but I was never good and still I'm not good. I've never been a good businessman at cultivating a relationship for a means to an end. And I don't particularly respect it. I'm awed by people to do it, but I don't really,

it's not attractive to me. Right. Between client meetings, speaking engagements, producing a podcast, and juggling my family commitments, you can only imagine what my calendar and inbox looks like. And that's why I love Notion. Seriously, I don't know what I would do without Notion. I use it daily to organize my meeting notes, my upcoming tasks, and project deadlines.

And I'm so excited about their newest workspace edition. It's called Notion AI. Notion AI helps you work faster, write better, and think bigger, doing tasks that normally take you hours in just seconds, which means I can finally find time for me in my busy schedule. Just tell Notion AI what to do,

the more details the better, or you can sort of prompt and go from there. Have it write a blog post, make an outline, brainstorm ideas, or summarize a whole bunch of docs. For a limited time, try Notion AI for free when you go to Notion.com slash habits. That's all lowercase letters. That's Notion.com slash habits to try out the incredible power of notion AI today. And when you use our link, you're supporting our show. This is a limited time offer. Try notion AI for free right now at notion.com slash habits.

So do you think that in order for people to be like a successful, when I say successful actor, I don't mean, how about a famous successful blockbuster actor, right? It's all relationships. No, no, no. It's not all relationships. But anyway, sorry, go ahead, I interrupt. No, no, it's okay. Do you think is the num, do you think fund a mint like they need to have that quality to be able to truthfully, like, basically build relationships and like

network well and, you know, do all these things. Like being successful requires a lot of things. Talent is just one of them, you know. Talent is usually not even in the equation to be honest from... Well, it's pretty helpful, you know. Talent tends to, you know, rise. And so, but, you know, you have to be able to, you know, I'm much better at it now.

I think because I'm more sort of accepting of who I am, but I would still be better served if I would go to a few more movie premieres or something, you know, and just get out there a little bit more. But you know, it's all part of, you know, a lot is required to be successful beside talent, you know, and I'm not necessarily willing. I love to go to work, like I said, but I don't particularly love some of the other aspects. You know what's fine?

It sometimes works for not, it looks like in some respects, being more mysterious can work for the person. Like, I'm just going to use an example, like look at Johnny Depp, not now, but like 10 years ago, whatever. Like, we didn't know he was super like, he was much more of a reckless where people were that much more intrigued by them. Versus, you know, it gives him a mystery, versus just knowing blah. Yeah, I don't know about you.

Yeah, I mean, I suppose it goes to then, but also being in successful movies helps that is, allows that all to be the case. You know, one of the things that always stood in my way, I think when I was young, I got successful was that I always approached it from a freelancer mentality of get the next job, get the next crumb in front of me. You know, I didn't have the ability to use to sort of keep in my eye on the horizon, where do I want to go, what do I want to be doing.

I was much more like, I need to get the next job. And so consequently, I made choices that weren't particularly good at times. And so movies are less successful. And so then suddenly, if you're not also doing these other things, you get marginalized. You know, so that was largely my own kind of temperamental failing in the sense that instead of having a

freelancer small mentality it would have been more beneficial to thought of a sort of a more eye on the horizon mentality that I didn't have if that makes any sense. It makes sense yeah. Vitamin water just dropped a new zero sugar flavor called with love. Get the taste of raspberry and dark chocolate for the all warm, all fuzzy, all self-care, zero self-doubt you. Grab a with love today. Vitamin water zero sugar, nourish every you.

Vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass O. What was your favorite movie that you've done that we all, like, you know, we all kind of know of, you know, in the... Well, I loved it. I loved doing Weekend at Bernie's. I thought that was quite fun. And I think Bernie is somehow aged quite well. Yeah, it's still stupid, as it ever was.

And I thought of back in movies from back in the day there, then it haven't helped us. I thought it was quite a good movie that no one saw, but it was right around that time too. I thought that was a good movie. And I loved the part I played in St. Elmo's Fire. I thought that part suited me very well. And I knew that it was, I knew that that was career making,

which it was. It was for sure. And then how about like even, I loved,-making, which it was. It was, for sure. And then, how about, like, even... I loved, I know, less than zero. I thought that was a really good movie. I know, did you like that movie? It sounded to me. No.

Was asked or read when I read. No, I thought that movie was a fail. I thought that movie... I think it would have been much better served to stick to the book. And, you know, I agree... We got... It was agreed to do do one movie and then the day we showed up, we were present with entirely new script by an entirely different writer. And on that on top of that, there were a lot of reshoots to that movie because it was

right in the middle of Nancy Reagan's sort of just say no era. So suddenly there were scenes of cocaine being flushed down toilets and things. And I think I was also ill-suited for that part in a certain way. And I felt like I was a bit, because I was successful at the time. I was foisted upon the director who didn't particularly want me for that role.

And so I always felt very insecure and unsupported doing that. Not that it was his fault at all. I just didn't ever got my feet under me in that movie. And I don't think it's a successful movie. I think Robbie Downey is terrific in it. Yeah. And I think it's physically beautiful,

beautifully shot by Ed Lockman. But as a movie, I don't think it's very good. I just don't know why. You know what it was? It reminisces of like Hollywood, right? Like of what happens? And when you're a kid watching it from a small town, it gives off this very glamorous,

or it looks like it gives you an inside scoop to what really happens. Now that I live here, it's actually what happens. It's actually very true. It really is, you know what I mean? I do have people come up to me to this day about the movie, but that movie kept me off drugs. So I mean, it has value. It has value that way. Okay, so let me just, I don't want to, I want to be respectful of your time and I wanted to ask you a couple more questions of this than we can like then talk about your new book, but the Robert Redford thing, why did you turn, turn down whatever he asked you to do? I can't because, again, wouldn't that be kind of like a self-sabotage move?

Like here you have a big Robert Redford who took a big liking to you, gave you an opportunity, you didn't like it. Why didn't you, like, and you never heard from him again? Have you ever heard from him since or not? No, no. And I did, I would go to Sundance Institute, the summer lab that they did for several years there. And yeah, I would, I didn't do that movie.

It was, I forget the name of the movie. He was just producing it. This is back in the early 90s when indie films were sort of a thing, you know, and he was just starting Sundance and it was a, but I know exactly why I didn't do that movie that I was asking is because I had to spend the first five minutes of the movie running around absolutely, completely naked, and I just couldn't see a world where I would do that.

Everything, like, wouldn't they... I mean, even back then, they would never do that, it would seem. Like, maybe now they would, but then? No, if you... I think you're wrong in the sense that back then, if you look at these movies from the 80s, there's much more sex, there's much more nudity, there's much more language, it was, and you know, all-rated movies, you know, nowadays,

we don't have any of that stuff. That's just none of that in movies now. There's all violence, incredible cartoon violence, but there's none of the human kind of, there's none of that, That was always normal in movies. There wasn't a movie I did that didn't have a naked sex scene in it. And I hated doing them. But now that just does not exist now.

People can't even kiss now in the movies. If you stuck your tongue in somebody's mouth now, HR would call you. You know, whereas back then, that's just what we, you know, people would just go for it. Okay, go, you know, and that's what we were doing. And that was normal. So it's very different now.

You're right. I know that I think about it. Like a boat last night was like a crazy sex or porky, Stephen. There's tons of sex in New Zealand. And all these things. And you know, with now that just doesn't exist anymore. No, that's absolutely, you're actually, that's absolutely true. Would you want to act again now? Like, would you act now or you're kind of done with it? Yeah, I just was, I was asked to do a TV, I did a season on the show called The Resident, which is a medical show that I directed for the woman Amy Holden who created that show. I directed the show for her before, so she asked me if I wanted to act and again. I did a season on the show which just finished recently,

and I loved it. I really enjoyed it. It's like, like, breathing to me acting. You know, I've been doing it so long and to have got stepped away from it for like 10 years or so, like I did and to do it again, to realize how much I've kind of grown hopefully and changed and to act again. It was much more effortless than it had been in the past. I really enjoyed it. You know, do you prefer films or acting in plays? Like, what is your preference? Well, you know, unless you're someone in a superhero movie or Marvel movie,

movies don't exist that much anymore. And so TV is where all the, you know, really so a lot of the really interesting work is being done and writing is being done. So, you know, acting is acting though, you know. So it's. I used to do a lot of theater. I haven't in years. I'm not sure I had the nerve for it anymore. But it was just, it was really interesting to act again and I enjoyed it, so I may want to do some more of it. Who do you, is there anybody that now that you reconnect? By the way, when does the documentary

come out for Brad? I'm just finishing it up yet, so I'm not sure yet. Hopefully in the fall. Do you know where is it going to be on? Netflix, Hulu, you don't know yet? I'm just, you know, I haven't sold it yet. I'm just creating it, yeah. Oh wow. And then go stuff.

And are you going to be, so basically, interviewed everybody from, by the way, a lot of these people had no idea where even in the Brad. How big was this supposed to Brad Pat? I just, you know, I did, like a lot of these people, I had no idea where even in the breath, how big was this supposed a breath pack? I just, you know, I did, a lot of these names, like they were in the breath pack, I mean. I know, I'm that way, I didn't like, really, they were in the breath pack?

They weren't in the breath, I thought they were in the breath pack, you know? Exactly. You know, it's a movable feast. I don't know, so I interviewed a bunch of people, like 20 odd people or something, yeah. I'm shocked that it hasn't been done already. Like when I saw that you, so it was, it's an interview to a bunch of people, like 20 odd people or something. I was shocked that it hasn't been done already. Like, when I saw that you were doing it, I'm like, how has this not been done already?

Like, I would think that there's... I know, right? I know. But it's all, you know, I think it kind of had to be done by one of us because in the sense that otherwise it's just a sort of, where are they now, kind of, VH1 special or something, you know, which is like, you know. But I was much more interested in kind of going This was my experience, dude. What was your experience? And you know, and just having conversations like I had no notes or

But you know, I just went to somebody's house everybody's house knocked on the door with my cameras. They did so what What was that? You know, and they can talk to me because they're like you're you never knew you do, you know, we shared it so It's easy than doing some, you doing some talking-hand interview about it, which I don't think anyone would be have any interest in. People have asked me, like they've asked everyone else, endless times over the years, would you do it? No, I'm not interested in sitting there and being interviewed about the Broadpack,

but having an actual conversation with it about people that were in it together was to me interesting and the value personally I would think that you would sell this thing in a heartbeat number one That this is done a bit on like I cannot believe it hasn't even been even done yet I'm surprised that none of the other people from the rap hack thought about doing it right like shocking to me Yeah, I mean I don't know I think a lot of people just want to move on. Yeah. And having looked back at it, writing the

Brad book, I was more amenable to sort of, this sting it had used to have was no longer existed. So I was able to look at it because it wasn't, I didn't feel that anymore. Right, no, I get that. And then is there anybody now when you reconnected with them for interviewing them for the documentary? Do you keep in touch with anybody from the group at all now or now? Yeah, it's mostly, I text a lot with Rob and Emilio now, which is a lot of like, it's nice, it's fun. And how about John Cryer? You still think he's annoying? No, John's lovely. He gave me the most wonderful generous interview for the documentary. He was so

insightful and entailed to it. So, no, John's kind of grown up to be a lovely guy. I always felt, you know, I was luckily able to years ago apologize to John for my, my sort of dismissal of him. You know what's funny? Like, I've all the, of? I've all of you, he's crushed with that two and a half man. He's crushed it. How much money has this guy been with this movie? Joe, you know what I mean? It's crazy. It's crazy.

So let me ask you this, and then we can maybe talk about your new book. But how do you spend your day now? This podcast is called Habits and Hustle. Do you have any particular habits that you do daily? What do you spend your time with? What's your schedule now? You said yesterday you were directing a show, but that- Yeah, I mean, I tend to work.

You know, I've been directing television shows recently. I'm gonna go to Africa in a couple of weeks to write a travel story and I'm in the middle of writing something. So I tend to just sort of keep juggling those three things. And so my schedule is always varied, incredibly varied. You know, I'd say just finished directing yesterday. So today I'm just like, and so you know, I never, that's, I don't know how people go to a job every day and year after year, I could never do it. Right. That my constitution is not like that either. How about in terms

of like you obviously don't drink anymore, even sober for how many years, like 20, 30, 30 years. Yeah. 30 years. So how do you stay looking so youthful and give me some of your tips and tricks? Like when you eat every drink every day, exercise every day, I want to know what I did go spinning this morning, which made me feel great. I did. I like to go spinning case because it just sort of burns off all that sort of stuff that

makes you want to implode Where'd you go spin one of the details? Where'd you go? I went to soul cycle right on my corner Okay, okay, how often did you go? Well, if I'm not working I'll go several times a week if I'm working like I've been working the last month I haven't been at all in a month So if I'm not working I'll go several times a week. I walk a great deal now. That's for that book came out of walking. Yeah.

How much would you say you walk a day? Five miles, two miles. I walk five to ten miles a day when I get some time. Yeah? That's great. I mean, I find walking a really extraordinary thing for the brain and the spirit, you know, I think walking, you know, it is solved by walking as the saying goes and I think that's very true. Yeah. How about food? Do you eat every day? What supplements are you taking anything? I want to

know what you're doing. I'm telling you what, I had a tomato mozzarella salad for lunch. I'm telling you, I had tomato mozzarella salad for lunch. Okay. And I had a bowl of commute for breakfast, puffed commute, and some almond butter and rice crackers. So you eat as well? This is fascinating discussion. By the way, it is fast. I will tell you something.

I don't know if you know this or not. This part will go viral. If I do a clip about what you're eating and what you do for exercise, people care more about that than all this other stuff. Yeah. You'd be... Yeah, so that would be... Yeah, that's what I've had to eat so far today.

And I've promised my son I'd take him to sushi tonight, so. Oh, that's so cute. Okay, so you eat quite healthy. Mm, you know, but we had pizza the other night. It was really tasty. I tried to eat. I tried not to eat wheat, but I cheat all the time. I had a guy, I had a nutritionist tell me, in 1999,

that I was allergic to wheat. And he said I was gluten intolerant. And I said, what's gluten? And that was long before. So I ate no wheat for a number of years, which was really hard to do back in the early 2000s, because now everyone doesn't eat wheat. But yeah, I had never heard of what gluten was.

So that actually did change my life when I stopped eating wheat for, you know, it made me much sharper, less bloated, less, you know, I found that all the things they say about it to be quite true. But now everyone eats like that, and it's just sort of this thing but And now since everyone does it I eat weed again Contrary right just to be conscious. Yeah, or lazy. I think is the word How about like at the do eat do eat meat are you a vegan vegetarian like a lot of meat?

Yeah, you know, I never took comfort in food in my life until the last several years. And now I understand that notion of taking comfort in food. And I wish I didn't. I was much better off when I didn't have fine comfort in food. But yeah, it'll turn off meat. I actually eat a lot of meat.

And I love a good steak. OK, good. Me too. OK. And now let's just quickly talk quickly about your book because it's not coming out on audio next month? Like, it comes out, you know, audio and published in stores and what, you know, and hard copy on May night. I may not. Okay, well, that's good to know. But I like, I love that, I love how the origin

of it. Because I think any parent can relate to it, right? You wanted to find some, you wanted to do something with your kid because he was getting older and spending quality time. By the way, me and my friends, my husband, and I talk for this all the time. So how was that experience to do that with him? Well, it was extraordinary. I walked this walk in Spain for 500 miles, 25, 26 years ago,

and if you talk earlier, and it really revealed my character to me in a way nothing else had. And so, you know, it was during the pandemic, at the end of the pandemic, we were all bombarded with so much fear during the pandemic and told to be so afraid. And I said, when this pandemic's over, I'm going to go walk again in Spain because I needed this is just bombarded with fear. I need to burn this fear off me. And then my son, you know, he had just suffered his first romantic breakup and he was heartbroken. And so I said, why don't you come with me to walk cross-bane? And he shocked me by saying yes.

And literally the second he said that, he said, yeah, I'll go do it. I went to the computer and bought two plane tickets and two days later we were on a plane because I knew once he kind of got his feet under him again, he would not want to do that. But, you know, and to the character on day two, he said, you know, Dad, what is the point of this fucking walk?

And on the last day when we arrived in Santiago, a month later, 500 miles later, he said, that's the only 10 out of 10 thing I've ever done in my life. And, you know, over that course of the time, we also did happen to, you know, get quite close and into me. You know, you spent a lot of time walking and talking and fighting and all sorts of things. It was a really profound, and I had the luxury that you rarely get with adult children, which is time.

And I didn't have to press him for everything. I just sat there and waited and walked next to him in silence. And when my son was kind of like, you could never sit him down and talk, but you get him moving and eventually it all starts to come out, you know, and I was felt very privileged to sort of be there for that. And they kicked up a lot of stuff about my father, so the legacy of fathers and sons and, you know, so it's a travel book in the notion of walking across Spain, but it's also this sort of father-son kind of journey in that way. So I found it a very powerful potent experience.

That sounds amazing. Well, I like the parts that I read the majority of it. I thought it was really well done. And I'm going to get in trouble because I think you have another interview. So I have to wrap you. I have to wrap this up. Okay. But I will say the book, I think every parent can relate to the book.

If you are, I mean, I love the concept. I would do that with my children. My kids are very small still, but I would love to have, you know, every parent would love that opportunity. And the fact that you've got to do this with your kid and have this experience for life is I think amazing. Yeah. Well, I mean, I certainly never forget it.

I don't, you know, let's see if he will, but he was, you know. I mean, all this research I've done, and I've interviewed every, you know, expert in the world, and parenting or whatever, all these, this one-on-one experiences that you have with your kids are so memorable, not just with a parent, but with a kid. And it like really, really helps them, like as for the parent, but for the kid. And it really helps them, as they get older,

reminisce in the memories that they've kind of, it's amazing. And I think that it's that. Well, and it also helped him see me as a person, as opposed to just as guy who's his father. He helped to see this is who you are, to him to see me. And as parents, we tend to sometimes protect that image.

We want to stay the parent of the child. And it's like, you know, I kind of, this is me Sam, you know, when he got to see that, warts and all, and that's, you know, there's a risk in that because, you know, we have this idea of something and he got just got to see who I really am. And so, you know, that was valuable. Totally that. How old is he now? He's 20 now. 21 now. He's just 21 last week. Yeah. And where is he good at school? Well, he's in London right now at the Royal Academy

in Dramatic Arts doing some courses. So he's an actor. He's on the show called Dead To Me. He was on the show. Yeah, remember Dead To Me, that's right. That's right. Amazing. We follow in your footsteps after all. Well, hopefully not. He has his own footsteps, but, you know, he's acting. He's quite good. He's quite talented. And he's much less fearful than I am. So maybe that'll serve him well. That's really amazing.

Well, I forgot about that. He's a dead smith. Right? Well, listen, like I said, I know you have another interview and I want to, I'm trying to be worse. I have a bunch of questions, but I want to let you off the hook here. Well, we can we can call back and do it again Part two because I literally I have a whole thing here, but again, I'm gonna get in trouble Well, when I'm in LA maybe I'll come see you. Yeah, will you do that? Will you let me know when you're here?

Will you promise me that? I'm serious. You're here in May, right? You're here in the end of May I'm there in May're here in May, right? You're here in the end of May. I'm there in May, somewhere in the middle of late May. Okay, I'm going to, okay, I'm going to make sure that happens for part two. Because I feel like, like I said, I feel like I have, like, a whole lot of interview here. Okay, it's fun, I enjoyed it. Thank you, I'm honestly, thank you so much for being on this podcast. I thoroughly enjoyed it more than just because you are my childhood,

but because you're human being that like has self-awareness and humility and a whole other vast amount of talent that's beyond just being a cute guy from St. Elmo's Fire. I'm waiting for it. Yeah, I from St. Elmo's Fire. I don't wait to insert. Yeah, I enjoyed it. It's a lot. Hope you enjoyed this episode. I'm Heather Monahan, host of Creating Confidence, a part of the YAP Media Network,

the number one business and self-improvement podcast network. Okay, so I wanna tell you a little bit about my show. We are all about elevating your confidence to its highest level ever and taking your business right there with you. Don't believe me, I'm gonna go ahead and share some of the reviews of the show so you can believe my listeners.

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