Habits and Hustle - Episode 255: Jillian Turecki: The #1 Reason Why Dating Is So Hard These Days

Episode Date: July 4, 2023

We've all experienced it: the gut-wrenching pain of a heartbreak and the eventual struggle to understand the dynamics of relationships.  In this episode of Habits and Hustle, we dive deep into the intricacies of relationships, discussing everything from the psychology behind relationship patterns to the role of stress, selfishness, and fear of rejection with Jillian Turecki. Jillian enlightened us with her distinctive insights on topics such as the reality of soulmates and the idea that a long-term relationship requires continuous choices. We also took a hard look at trauma bonds, anxious attachment, and the importance of becoming radically self-aware to break destructive cycles. This conversation was not just intellectual but also deeply personal, as it drew from Jillian's experiences and expertise. Finally, we shifted our focus to some of the more nuanced aspects of relationships. We ruminated on gender differences in emotional connections with sex, pondered over the concept of safety for women due to their vulnerability, and tackled the vexing issue of lost attraction in an otherwise fulfilling relationship.  Jillian Turecki is a certified relationship coach, teacher and writer who for 20 years has taught others how to transform their relationships with themselves. Under the tutelage of Tony Robbins and world renowned family therapist Cloe Madanes, Jillian is certified by the Robbins Madanes Center for Strategic Intervention. Fueled by an insatiable curiosity about what makes a relationship thrive, Jillian has helped thousands through her teaching and writing revolutionize their relationship with themselves so that they transform their relationships with others.  What we discuss: (0:00:01) - How did Jillian becoming a relationship coach? (0:11:02) - Are our relationship expectations realistic or selfish? (0:22:47) - How to break bad relationship patterns (0:33:35) - Busting myths about relationships (0:40:30) - How important is emotional connection in sex? Key Takeaways: There’s no such thing as one soulmate. People come into our lives for various reasons and not everyone who feels like a soulmate is. Not everything is meant to be a life story. Some people come into our lives to wake us up. Some people come into our lives to help us through a period of time. Some people come into our lives to show us some adventure.  If you lose attraction towards a partner, you have to understand why. A couple can bring it back if they understand the why and they work on the why. And especially if there was once a lot of attraction in the beginning. It is something that typically can be resurrected as long as the other things are sort of rectified and worked on.  We learn about our attachment styles and we learn about what we're experiencing on the attachment spectrum, based on who we are relating to. And it's also very dependent on what else is going on in our lives. For example, if we're going through a very difficult time in our lives, we might become more anxiously attached to someone because we think on a subconscious level that this person is going to rescue us and is going to make it all better.  Learn more about Jillian: Website: https://www.jillianturecki.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/p/B4smb80j8Am/ Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/jillian-on-love/id1640172049?ls=1&itscg=30200&itsct=qcode_podcasts&at=1001l36mQ&ct=JOL-Chartable My links: Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I guys is Tony Robbins, you're listening to Habits in Hustle, Creshion. Jill, I was like seriously so hyperparinoid about this podcast because I have like serious post-traumatic stress disorder or trauma from it. I was like, I was so nervous that I was like, I'm not taking a chance. I'm doing it zoom. Just in zoom. Yeah. And, you know, that is what it is. So by the way, for everybody, Jillian and myself

tried to do this few weeks ago. And it was a disaster, which is why I hate virtual podcasts. And you were so gracious for, for now, we're just sitting there like, oh my god, who is this girl and this stupid podcast? Get me off of this. No, it's technology. It happens, you and this stupid podcast? Get me off of this. No, it's technology.

It happens, you know, just have to frickin' roll that. Yeah, I guess that's true. So thank you for being on the podcast. You know, this is a hundred percent. This is, I've been really looking forward to talking to you and this is, you know, take two. And you're a relationship coach and that's basically your title, right? You have a great podcast. I love your podcast. I think we spoke about that for the three seconds.

Yes, yes. So I guess like teacher, podcaster, writer, you know, whatever you want to call me. All the things, all the things. I consider myself to be an educator first and foremost probably. Well, I wanted to let's start the podcast by explaining how you became a relationship coach. What made you become that? What's your origin story? And then we'll get into all my litany of questions for you. Amazing, amazing. So I was a yoga teacher in New York City

for almost 20 years. That was my thing, that was my jam. And I would say, eight years into teaching yoga, I definitely had this sense that I wanted to do something more, but I had absolutely no clue what that was. I also really wanted to get married and have kids. And I had this blueprint, this relationship blueprint where I expected that I would get married.

I would have a child, maybe two kids, and then maybe be teaching my classes with one kid on my hip, like that kind of thing, but also had this deep desire for something for more to really achieve more and give more. I didn't know what that was, so I got, I actually ended up meeting the man who I would be married to at the yoga studio

where I worked. And we had a really great, I always say we had a great relationship before we got married. But I would say it was 95% great or 90% great. And there was 10% that was really problematic. But once we got married, that 10% became the 90% and what was really great about us became the 10%. And no relationship is perfect, but it depends what's in that 10%.

So we got married. The marriage only lasted two years. He, it was really tumultuous. And actually the day before our two-year wedding anniversary, I woke up to bleeding, vaginal bleeding, bleeding because I was the miscarrying turned out. And he called me later that day and was like, I'm not coming home. So, I mean, there's a lot obviously, there's a lot of problems leading up to this, but he kind of bolted. So, you know, the story was always, obviously, there was a lot of problems leading up to this, but he kind of bolted.

So, the story was always like, yeah, my husband broke up with me over the phone while I was having this carriage and my mom had just been given a couple months to live because she had lung cancer. Yeah. So this happened in 2014 and it was like, that was like, I always say that was the day that my world fell

apart. And, you know, I entered what many would refer to as the dark night of the soul. And it was a very, very hard time. It was, I was devastated. And it was during that time that there was a couple of things that play. Well, one I had a coach who lived in my building and she was a couple of things at play. Well, one, I had a coach who lived in my building and she was a coach before everyone was a coach, before it was like trying to be a coach. Right, right. And she found me one day sitting outside and she saw the despair in my face.

And I was outside because I have a dog. And she got me hooked on Tony Robbins and basically it was like maybe you should have, maybe I should coach you. And then she was like, you should really become a coach. It was very overwhelming. But anyway, I started, you know, long story very medium. I started a journey of trying to recover from this, felt like this catastrophe, this tragedy in my life.

And I learned so much about, I became obsessed with relationships and what makes a relationship work. Because I was obsessed with the fact that this didn't work out. And I was like, what the hell man, like what is going on? Like this can't be happening. Something is wrong. And so I literally every day, I think from that moment, have been studying psychology and relationships and all of that. And then I started coaching very soon after. And then I started, I first started doing a lot of family work and couples work. And then I went more, a little bit, more focus on individual work and

here I am today. I got certified, I have mentors, I have all, you know, I, you know, I have two different coaches, mentors and all of that along the way. So it's that's been my journey. Did you, so you started pretty much in 2014? Yes. When it all kind of began for you and. And so do you still take clients? Are you still with clients? Individual? So I do have like a few select individual clients who I've been working with because I adore them

and the progress has been amazing. I run mostly group mentorship programs. I was still doing one in one here and there because look, the truth of the matter is, I was still doing one in one here and there because look, the truth of the matter is, I don't care what anyone says, you can't become a great coach without working with people one on one. You simply cannot. You could call yourself a coach, but you can't, because how would you ever know what it's like to really coach unless you're actually working in the trenches, working one on one. So I spent

years filling my schedule in a way that I don't recommend anyone do because I was just way too obsessive about it, but years working one on one. I was like, I want to reach the thousands. So I had that goal and I did that. And now I'm slowing down just because I do want to work more in the, you know, I've the podcast and I do really love working with groups. So now shifting a little bit because number one, my priorities are shifting and just where I want to put my energy is shifting, but I'm so glad that I spent years working on a lot. I would never be where I am today.

I don't think without that. Do you have a partner of any form now? Like are you, I just said you weren't married. I asked you already. I was like a business partner. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, neither. I'm single and not in a relationship. I was in a lovely relationship over the pandemic,

but just wasn't right long term. The relationships that I've had since my divorce have all been lovely and healthy, I walk my talk 100%. I just, I guess I have a very high standard of what is going to be right for me for the long term fully committed. So at the moment I'm single and one of the things that I love to do is help singles because I am so comfortable single and I never was when I was younger. And so I love helping people sort of trust the process of being single and not feel so alone when they're single. I can't relate to feeling really like alone anymore. I feel so at peace with. I don't want to give any false

advertising. I mean, I struggle a lot. I have my own demons, but I feel at peace not being in a relationship and knowing that I have full faith that it'll happen when it's meant to happen. Do you feel that relationships in general have been more fewer and far between in the last few years? I mean, I don't know. That's become in the new trend.

People aren't dating anymore. People aren't even having sex anymore. That was a new study I just saw. And basically this whole paradox of like too many choices could be part of it, right? Like you end up with nothing. A decision fatigue until people can't really commit. Do you find that that's really something

that you've seen a lot of? Well, the people I work with, they're all dating and having sex or in relationships. So they're not dating or not having sex, that's not something that I've experienced in my practice. People are absolutely doing that, but certainly the problem with dating apps and technology is this idea that everyone is just so incredibly disposable.

And it also makes it a lot easier for those who have a more predatory nature, a darker predatory nature, to get on the apps and just sort of like, you know, go through particularly women, like, you know, they're like candy. So that does happen. I also have clients who've met the love of their lives on the app. So, you know, but yes There's definitely a problem with with things just becoming more people being treated as if they're more disposable That's a great word for it. I've never described it that way, but I think that's a perfect word people are more disposable because yes There's always someone you never know who's going to be there tomorrow or the next white So it doesn't matter how good that date was with that conversation

who's going to be there tomorrow or the next swipe. So it doesn't matter how good that date was or that conversation. It just doesn't, because there's always someone else. That's the mindset that I feel is happy. I've seen, I'm married, but for my friend out there who are single, it's very difficult, it seems. Yes, but the study suggests that it's easier for men to find more quality women on the apps

than it is for women to find more quality men on the apps. But there are, but the statistics show that there are more men on the dating apps than there are women. So there's that. I also think that, you know, call it the pandemic or whatever it is or just because of, I don't, I actually don't think it's just the pandemic. I just think it's the rise of technology. People aren't out there. You know, they're not doing things with their time like we used to. Yep. Because their time is on a device.

So they're not doing the things that would make it so that they could meet people more organically. Right, that's the problem. What's the number one reason why you think relationships fail in the first place? Well, the overarching umbrella of that is fear, but really, but more specifically, there's a couple of things, personal stress, people not managing their personal stress well. And so what happens is that they become completely dysregulated, they stop engaging in their

relationship, they get in their heads, and so they're in their heads all the time, and then they are, you know, stress has a way when we don't stay on top of it, it has a way of consuming us, and when we get consumed by our stress, we get consumed with ourselves. And so we don't actually engage with our partner in the way that we used to. So stress is actually the number one thing. And then what runs pretty parallel to that is selfishness. And it's really hard for people to hear that because you could be a really caring person,

but be selfish in the relationship because people are so afraid more than ever of being abandoned and of not being loved and you know people really pathologically fear rejection. They may not fear rejection in general in the world, but when it comes to relationships they do. And so that's when we all are weird quirky patterns come up when we think even on a subconscious level that our partner is going to reject us, we'll start to do all this protective stuff or we'll be mean or we'll be punishing or we'll just think about our needs and getting our needs met and we don't realize, you know, it's, we're not really taught how to love. We're taught, you know, this is what it is to feel love. This is what it means when someone maybe loves you, but we're rarely taught the art of actually giving love in a way that's pure, in a way that's

giving, in a way that doesn't, it doesn't mean you're abandoning yourself in a own, in a way it's authentic. And so that's the hard part. So I've been sleeping on these blissey pillowcases lately. And let me just tell you, I had no idea a pillowcase could actually get me a better night's sleep. Blissy is amazing. They use a hundred percent mulberry silk and if you're someone who tends to sweat or overheat while sleeping, blissy has your back. It's temperature regulating and insulating properties keep you cool all night so you

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I cannot stress it enough to get 50% off plus free shipping. You guys will thank me. I promise. It is so good. Enjoy. So how do you teach somebody how to love? If we've never been taught it before, where was the first step? Well, the first step is understanding.

Well, it depends who I'm speaking to, honestly. Like, it depends on the client. Some people need to understand first how to show themselves respect and love. Some people, their self-esteem is kind of OK, although I work with a fair amount of people who self-esteem is on the lower end of the spectrum. So loving someone is having a curiosity for them.

It's a having a curiosity about them. What moves them? What hurts them? What are they what motivates them? what inspires them, and then having a desire to be a part of that, to want to meet their needs, to want to understand their psychology and speak their love language. It's so it's learning how to step out of yourself so that you can now try to understand the psychology of your partner and then meet their needs, their core needs. Do you believe there's one soulmate for people or do you believe there's many soulmates? Many soulmates. And I think, you know, someone, you could meet someone who's absolutely a soulmate.

And I mean, we can define that as someone who comes into your life, who presents an opportunity, you both present an opportunity to one another, to be able to grow, and to be able to expand, and to be able to learn how to be more, to be love, and to give love, and to exchange love. And so two people can meet and they can really have that sort of soulmate connection, but they can easily screw it up.

And that's what we do. We screw it up. But that's okay, because there's always someone else who you can do that with. So I don't really believe in one soulmate. I also believe that sometimes people feel like a soulmate, but really that's chemistry talking, that's hormones talking,

that's your dad talking or your relationship with your dad talking or your relationship with your mom talking. So they feel like a soulmate, but really they're just someone who is going to be a big lesson. I believe that people come into our lives for various reasons and not everyone who feels like a soulmate is, you know, not everything is meant to be a life story. Some people come into our lives to wake us up. Some people come into our lives to help us through a period of time, some people come into our lives

to show us some adventure. So, you know, it's dependent on so many things, but no, I don't believe in one soulmate. How depressing is that belief? I agree. I also think it's unrealistic to believe, this is my opinion, that there's only one person for your whole life,

because you, as a person, evolve and change. And so this idea of like having one person that will fit every single need at every phase of your life is basically a societal lie or a fairytale that we try to convince ourselves of. And then when we don't see that happening, we get really upset and that gives us stress and gives us anxiety and makes us feel bad.

Like all the social norms of what we should have. And how do we do about that? Like I feel like that's something that so many people struggle with. Yeah. Well, that's also part of the reason why I teach and I'm not the only one who teaches us just to have realism. Yeah. You know, so, so you're, you're spot on, you know, first of all, who is going to be your soulmate at 18 is not who's going to be your soulmate at 28 or who's going to be your soulmate at 18 is not who's going to be your soulmate at 28 or who's going to be your soulmate at 30 is not necessarily your soulmate at 50.

I mean, if you're with someone all those years, you can, the thing is you have to keep choosing your partner if you're with someone for the long term. It has to be an active choice. Love really is a practice. It's a ritual. It's a verb. People have to be realistic that there are, I always say, you know, you have to choose five things that you absolutely must have in a partner and in a partnership. It is non-negotiable for you. All the rest, you have to be willing to tolerate. So you can have your list of everything that you want in a partner, but that list of what you're willing to tolerate better be twice as long. Because, you know, no one's perfect. And so this idea that someone's going to come into your life and, you know, complete you is really a myth. But we're

all looking for oneness. We're all looking for the one because our subconscious is always looking to find a connection to something greater than ourselves. Some people will say that's nature. Some people will say that's God. Some people will say that's a higher power. Some people will say that's spirit or soul. Whatever your belief system is, but we are always in search of feeling more connected to something larger. And when we fall in love, we feel like we're connected to something larger. I mean, it is that intoxicating. We just feel like, I mean, everything becomes like technical or around us when we're falling in love.

But people really struggle with the next phase of relationship, which is more committed, they think, oh, something is wrong. No, no, no, this is just, this is actually the natural progression. Now you work on the deeper stuff so that you can actually really become each other's quote unquote soulmates, rather than thinking, you know, your soulmate is, it's like, it's not like chupid pointing its arrow at you and hitting you, it's not like that, but we are sold that lie. Well, I think there's a big difference between,

we get, I think we confuse chemistry with what love is or fair mones. Like, I believe that there are some people that you're naturally more attracted to, fermonally, right, or chemistry-wise. And, you know, and what, I think what you tell me you're the expert, but we pick our partners sometimes based on that physical chemistry because we think that's love. Yes, 100%.

The chemistry conversation is complicated because if sex is important to you, and if romance is important to you, and it's not that, it's not on the high on everyone's list, but it is on many people's list of a certain age or stage of life. You have to be sexually and physically attracted to the person you commit to. In no way would I ever suggest, like, you know, you marry the person who you don't find it, you're not drawn to physically, you have to be attracted. But there's a difference between being attracted to someone liking their smell and also the more time

you spend with them, feeling more attracted to them. That's very different than the person who you're crazy attracted to because it's like teenage love. I mean, some people will call it a trauma bond. I just see it as it's immaturity. And I'm not dissing anyone. I mean, I've been there. But we have to change that person who you're like, oh my God, it's like I'm so attracted to. This is what's so difficult.

We have this sort of primitive part of ourselves that's like, I want that person. Then we have a higher mind that has nothing to do with the primitive parts of ourselves that has to be able to step in and say, okay, you're really attracted to this person, but is this person going to be all drama? Is this person going to be a repetition of your patterns? Is it a relationship with this person just going to reinforce all the pain that you had in childhood?

And then as you start to mature and you start to do the work and you start to say, oh yeah, like, yeah, I'm really attracted to that guy, but he's troubled, but by the way, I'm also really attracted to this other guy who's really good for me. And maybe I'm not looking at him wanting to like completely rip his clothes off.

But when I spend more time with him or her, when I spend more time with him, wow, it's like, I'm going more and more drawn, I'm more attracted to them, I'm more in love with them, I'm, I just want to be around them. That's, that's really the ideal. That's what we want. Right, but I think sometimes we can confuse ourselves, right? Because we think to ourselves, and it doesn't happen. It's like because something is new, right? You're always more attracted to someone when you put the unknown, we don't know them. And so it's more exciting. And so you gravitate to that, right? And so how do we stop ourselves from doing that? Like you do it a podcast, I think it was called the art of choosing the right partner.

I think that was, can you give us some of the art of choosing the right partner and not getting stuck in these traps? Yeah, so part of it is having discernment. And the discernment is based on understanding your own psychology and knowing not what you want, not just what turns you on, but what you actually really need. And then what happens is that you start to become attracted to other qualities.

So, whereas maybe when you were younger, or whatever, a year ago, a month ago, you may have been attracted to the person who's the life of the party, you're like, okay, like, yeah, that's what I used to be attracted to. But now I'm actually attracted to someone who's more grounded, who can communicate well. You start to find other things more attractive

because you are becoming the partner that someone wants to be with. You're starting to value things differently. You're starting to understand yourself and your psychology and what you've been through. And also, you're deciding, I want to be a really good communicator. I love, I think it's really hot if we can have a difficult conversation. I think it's really hot when someone makes me feel safe rather than me feeling anxious around them all the time. And so it's not, it's, you know,

it's not quite so linear, but it's really about learning. Look, if you've been burned enough times by a particular type, at some point, you're going to be motivated to change your type. And that motivation comes, what comes with it is that you have to understand what your values are. You maybe have to change, switch your values a little bit. You have to understand your psychology. And then you just start to, you start to recognize, and maybe it's hanging around other people, men or women who embody more than you say, oh, you know what? That would feel really good to feel safe around someone. That would feel really good to

like, you know, laugh with someone as opposed to always like, you know, doing this chase with someone. So it's, it's a process. And sometimes it's a long process. If someone is really deeply entrenched in a pattern and they have low self-esteem, and sometimes it's quite quick. It's those patterns. Yeah, I think breaking patterns are very difficult. Like, is it breaking bad habits? But you break that part of the process of breaking the bad habits is defining what's really what you value.

And what you want to continue to value moving forward. You start you have to start to think about who do I want to be in a relationship. What kind of relationship do I want? What do I find that's actually really sexy and some of these things they change honestly as you age? Yeah, that's true. What is a trauma bond? You said that earlier. Yeah, I mean, I use that I use that term lightly because I think it's one of those terms in the pop psychology zeitgeist that I think is overused and actually misunderstood and the little annoying frankly. But it's whenever it's so I always say that people find each other. So if you have really low self esteem, you know, your self-worth, I'll just give extreme

examples just for clarity sake. If you have really low self-esteem and your self-worth is in the gutter and you didn't, you know, you have, you know, mommy didn't give you, was mean to you or daddy wasn't mean to you, you know, you have some trauma there. You also have some beliefs that you've been conditioned to have by society and family and peers, which is that you have to work really hard to be loved in a relationship. Right? So it's a combination of these forces within a person. Then they're likely going to be attracted to the really charming narcissist, let's say,

or the really charming selfish person because they think, you know, wow, this person's so charming, you know, they haven't done the work to understand, but like, charming only goes so far, and with charming also comes, you know, a whole host of other problems. And so, and then the person comes in and they're, they're, they're showering that the person would low self-worth with all this love, and then the person, they're they're they're showering that the person would low self-worth with all this love and then the person they're putting they're putting each other on pedestals because it's so there's really selfish person or the person who's really dealing with maybe they're dealing with a lot of avoidance. They're going to find the person who's going to be the most confronting to them, you know, about they're going to be,

it's like it's the mirror. It's like here you are. This is the work that you have not done on yourself. This is your problem. I am literally this metaphor here to show you what your problem is and these people find each other and they can work through it only if both people are committed to becoming radically self-aware and working on it. But more times and not it ends in a complete, it ends in a toxic relationship. Maybe it's abusive. Maybe they're abusing each other. Maybe it's just completely unhealthy. Maybe they're just like they can't, they can't make it through to the other side. So that's basically what happens. Their childhood trauma are finding each other. They haven't done the work. They don't have to they don't have the self-awareness of why they behave, the way that they do, and they're almost like foils to each other. That is, you know, a mirror. Is that like co-dependence though too? Or? No, I mean, you know, co-dependency can be can live in that, but it's not necessarily that, you know,

codependency is another thing that's been sort of taken too far. Co-dependency is first and foremost to describe an addict and a non-addict, and the non-addict is wanting the addict to change, the addict, you know, wants to change, but it doesn't want to change, but feels like forced to change. So codependent relationships are basically like, I'm not happy unless you're happy. You have to change and be a certain way so I can be happy, but I'm going to find the person with the biggest problem in the room. And I'm going to, you know, try to fix them and try to change them and then they're going to feel totally terrible and so that's usually that's a codependent relationship. You said something also, I wrote this last time but you know this whole idea of anxious

attachment, I thought that was really interesting because well, you were saying something again, something I was listening to about making excuses for people we have attachment to and how we kind of do that. We do we kind of like justify people's bad behavior because we don't want to see the bad. We kind of convince ourselves of whatever we want that person to be.

Yes. And that is I think what people do most of the time. Yes. So that has nothing to do with anxious attachment questions. Oh, is it different? OK. Sorry. I mean, I think it's just, it's never just one thing

or another thing. I always like a whole, you know, as you know, there's always a host of things. It's always, it's always more complicated. But basically, you know, attachment is a part of life. The Buddha said, you know, life is suffering and life is suffering because of attachment. And it becomes incredibly painful and emotionally dangerous

when we become attached to someone, for example, who doesn't treat as well. So that's what I think that may be what you're referring to. So it's like, oh, even though they're either in the... What's the definition of anxious attachment? Is there a definition of anxious attachment that... What I'd love to have is people having explanations of some of these terminologies that we hear about.

And so people can then figure out signs if this is something that they can relate to for their own relationships that they can figure out. if this is something that they can relate to for their own relationships that they can figure out. Yeah, so anxious attachment and this was something that I struggled with when I was younger. Anxious attachment is basically when you were as a small child, usually there was a parent who was very abandoning, whether they literally abandoned or they weren't really present. So it's really, the theory is like how the child attaches to the parent from the beginning. Is it a secure attachment? Meaning they know when the

parent leaves the room that they're going to come back, you know, or is the fear that when the parent leaves the room, they're never going to come back. Or is the fear that when the parent leaves the room and they don't want them to come back. So anxious attachment is really just its anxiety, its relationship anxiety, it's a fear of abandonment. And in it, there is, there's so much context to annex, it's attachment because you might be anxiously attached to a partner because they happen to be quite abandoning and they happen to be quite avoidant. You know, maybe they're not a very good communicator and then you're in a relationship with someone who might be smothering you and then all of a sudden you're like, oh my god, I'm not anxious to

attach. I can't wait to get away from you. So we learn about our attachment styles and we learn about what we're experiencing on the attachment spectrum based on who we are relating to. And it's also very dependent on what else is going on in our lives. You know, if we're having, if we've been, if we're going through a death of a family member, if we're going through a very difficult time in our lives, we are, we might become more anxious to attach to someone because we think our subconscious level, we think, well, this person is going to rescue me. This person is going to make it all better or I don't feel, I feel unsafe in the world. I feel unsafe in my body. I feel unstable. So I'm going

to cling to this relationship as the source of my stability. And so whenever I sense that it might be unstable, I'm going to claim. So I hope that offers a little bit of clarity. No, it absolutely does. And I think that a lot of what we do is we pick partners based on what kind of whatever has been so far. But there's all these ideas of love languages.

If my love language is A and yours is B and then do we match each other? Like to me, that can't be enough, right? Like if I know your love language is compliments and then I compliment you and then my love language is, you know, acts of gifts. To me, you know, people are always like, you just have to give people the love language

that really works for them. Like to me, isn't there like a piece of it though with that it's's somewhat innate? Either you're into the person or you're not. Once there's too much of this back of, or you're the expert, but how much of these relationships do you think have to be something that is more natural versus constantly being worked on? Right? Yeah, that's a very, very good question.

So let me just a little note about love languages. I think it's important that when we love someone, and this is part of what it means to love someone, that we don't just love someone in the ways that feels comfortable and familiar to us, we love them in the ways that we know that they want to be loved. So that might include within that conversation,

the love language is touch or something like that, but it also includes other things, which is like, it's really important to your partner that, you know, they feel most loved when you cook them a meal or, you know, maybe whatever it is, but you don't, you're like, that means nothing to me, but it means something to them. And so that's the self-lessness that I'm talking about. It's not martyrdom. It's, I'm giving, I'm showing them love in the ways that they, that they feel loved by me and putting in that effort. And so I don't really see that as work. I see that as mindfulness. And it's very easy, the best of us and the best and the best of relationships, we will get mindless sometimes. We will become unconscious. And I think part of it is just being, oh, it's just bringing that awareness, oh, like my partner's a little bit tired today or

if I partner, you know, I'm not, you know, they could use a little more love today. And then you're doing that. I don't really see that as work. I just see that again as part of just being in a relationship. There is that line though between how like certain things should be, it shouldn't be so hard. Right. That you're constantly having to work on the relationship. You might have to go through a season where you have to,

but yes, there should, I definitely don't recommend, for example, if someone is, you know, in seeing someone for six months, that they take their relationship to the next level, maybe that's getting engaged or maybe that's moving in with each other. I certainly don't recommend that if it's just always hard. If they're just always having to work on their relationship, there really actually should be some natural ease to it for sure. But sometimes that ease happens because the people inside of the relationship are not as complicated. They don't have as much trauma and stuff to work through. One thing I love doing is taking ideas and making them real.

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So go to cosyearth.com and use the code hustle and you will save 35% off, site wide, check it out. Like I do believe there's some people that are just not programmed to be great in relationships. And that should be okay too, right? Like there's a reason, like some people are just, you know, like that some people are just more simple, right? They're not as complicated or difficult, you know what I mean? And that is, and so sometimes we're always trying to fit a circle into a square or where into a circle, right? I believe everyone has the potential to be in a healthy relationship.

Most everyone, maybe not everyone, but most people have the potential if they're willing to do the work. If they're willing to do the work, that's the big thing. If they're willing to do the work on themselves. On themselves. Not everyone is willing to do that, but I do believe in people's potential. I don't believe that because I know lots of people who've had horrific childhoods that are in great

relationships and they're due and they are great in relationship. And I know people who've had really happy childhoods who aren't doing great in relationships. So I think that, and I know people who've had really, really terrible trauma and they're not defined by their trauma. And I know people who've had not so terrible trauma and they're really defined by that. So I really just believe in people's potential to be able to be in a healthy relationship

as long as they are willing to work on that and hire someone if they need to. What is the number one myth about a healthy relationship that you've heard? Well, that it doesn't take any work and that it's easy and that with the right partner and you know, there's everything's going to be perfect. That's the biggest myth. Yeah, well, and I guess I laugh at that because that's so, it's silly. You know, how about this idea of like emotional unavailability, right? When you're, you hear that a lot like, oh, they're just emotionally unavailable. They're just emotionally unavailable.

Can you help somebody become more emotionally available? Or is that something that's more? Absolutely. Absolutely. So first, it's important to note that sometimes you'll be with someone who's emotionally unavailable, but they're really emotionally unavailable to you. They're just, they're really just not as into you. They don't have the same, they don't share the same feelings for you. So they're not opening to you because they're conflicted about how they feel about you. Right. And then they'll meet someone else and totally open up. So that's a reality. That's a tough feel to swallow, not, you know, it's a hard truth. But there are just some people who are emotionally unavailable because they weren't taught the tools of, they're just very afraid. They're

afraid to go deep. They're afraid to let anyone in. They're afraid to make deeper connections. Maybe they're going through a stage of their life where they're very selfish. Maybe they are just very selfish. So, but there are people who aren't as emotionally available because sometimes their self-esteem is really low. So they conveniently choose partners who have a really big problem that they can fixate on and then there's never really any intimacy there. So at the core of

emotional availability is vulnerability. It's the willingness to be vulnerable and it's the desire to experience another's vulnerability. So if you're vulnerable with someone and they're not taking the bait, they're not interested, they might even be repelled by your vulnerability. They are not emotionally available, at least to you. To you. That's what I think is important. Or in general, or they could be that way in all relationships. Could be, but I think what you said earlier is more accurate in the way. Like I think that my mother would always say something

to me when I was younger. Like every pot has a lid or every lid finds its pot or whatever it is true. Like, and the movie, like, he's just not that into you. I think there's something to be said for the react, like the realization that sometimes, you know, a cigar is just a cigar that you're not clicking with somebody because it's just not meant to be clicked with, right?

Yes. No question. And we can like trick ourselves and we can fool ourselves to believe it's not us to make us feel better, but really in reality, it's like, yeah, well, that person can be unavailable to you, but be available to that person. Right. So what is it about you? So I feel like that's something that I think as a whole

society, we can't, we do do ourselves, right? Like we think of all the reasons, well, maybe he's, I'm just making this, he's not calling because my phone was in a bad cell, so well, maybe just in a call, you know, all the excuses we give each other, you know, I give out to myself. I agree with you wholeheartedly. And there are definitely people who really struggle with finding deeper connections with people. They can connect really well in the beginning lustful

stage, you know, they can connect, they present themselves as very emotionally open because they're all Google AI for you in that moment. But when it comes to true vulnerability, when it comes to really going to the deeper layers, lust is not love. So when you get to the deeper layers, it's like there's a wall there. How is lust usually lust? I think there's different phases to lust.

I think there's the very beginning, the very beginning a few weeks of lust, couple months of lust. It depends on how quickly or slowly someone is two people are going, how much time they're spending with one another. It depends. It depends. I mean, for some people that last phase is six months for some people to hear for some people to one month. Yeah. That's fair. So it's different for depending on the situation. It's different. I think so. Yes. Yeah. That's different for everybody men and women. How are we the most different? Like what do you see the big in your practice and who all the people you've spoken to?

What would you say the biggest differences and similarities are I guess? Are we speaking within I'm assuming we're speaking within the context of relationship we're're speaking really. Yes, yes, yes, we're speaking. So most women want to feel very safe and cherished. And most of the men, in my experience, they want to feel, it's not that they don't want to feel safe, it's not that they don't want to feel cherished, but they want to feel very respected and they want to feel appreciated. And the experience that I've had is that women's biggest complaint is, you know, he's not present with me like his, you know, he's not present with me. He doesn't pay enough attention to me, all of that. And his biggest complaint will be, I feel, masculated around her, You know, I'm not appreciated for the

things that I do do. And I think that because in general, women are really seeking safety all the time, because we are just more vulnerable in the world, you know, we just are. I mean, you talk to the average man and he walks down an empty street. He's not thinking about who's going to jump him necessarily, but we walk down an empty street and we're very as a woman, very well aware of just how vulnerable we are in that moment. So we're always seeking safety and in that pursuit of safety, it's very easy for women to

look for what's missing rather than what's there. And so a lot of women will get very nitpicky. We're talking obviously very heteronormatively. They'll get very nitpicky of their man and what's missing and he's not doing enough of this and not doing enough of that. And he'll say, well, what about what I did, you know, what I did this morning for her and what I did for that and so it's he doesn't feel appreciated and she doesn't feel understood or seen. And so those are like some of the biggest differences in dating. Here's a really key difference. Most men can have sex without falling in love or falling in lust. A man typically has to form some sort of emotional connection with a woman before he has sex with her

in order for him to continue wanting to see her after he's had sex with her. This is biological. A man meets a woman that he's attracted to. He wants to have sex with her. This doesn't make him a bad guy. It just makes him a guy. He wants to have sex with her. After he's make him a bad guy. It just makes him a guy. He wants

to have sex with her. After he has had sex with her, he can be totally done unless he has created, has some sort of emotional bond to her. When then on the other hand, and this is really primarily the role of estrogen, we'll, we'll once typically, if she has sex with someone who she likes, who she likes, after she's has sex, she gets very attached. And so, whereas men don't. So, it's very important and dating, if you're someone to loop this back, if you're a woman and you have anxious attachment,

or you tend to get anxious, or you know, you've touched very quickly, or you fall for the wrong people, it's important to wait until you have sex with someone until you know that you're on the same page. And this has nothing to do with morality. You can do whatever you want with your body that you see fit. But I'm telling you right now,

from the thousands of women I've worked with who have struggled with this, it's like as soon as they decided, you know what? Like, I don't, because there's this belief that many women share, which is, well, I have to have sex with him in order for him to be interested in me. And that is a lie. And that is the biggest lie. No, no, no, no, no. That's not what's going to get him interested in you is getting in your pants. It's the opposite. It's being able to actually see you as someone who's not just a sexual conquest.

That's going to have him bond with you. So women will lead a lot with that part of themselves because they think they have to. And then they form this attachment to someone who's not formed the attachment back. And that's why a lot of women will get their heart out, especially of a certain age, will get their hearts broken after once the relationship has become physically intimate. So that's a big difference

between men and women generally speaking, that's important to know. Yeah, I like that. And then my last question is, what happens when you're in a relationship and everything else is great, but one loses attraction for the other? Like, how does that work? Well, you first have to understand why. Okay. You have to understand why. So, is it, is that the person lose attraction to their partner because their partner is always a stress case, stressed out, isn't is a shell of the person that they were when they started their relationship, isn't taking care of themselves emotionally or physically, is always making their partner feel like they're responsible for their happiness or and therefore responsible for their unhappiness, is that why they lost attraction? Did attraction get lost because the two of you

are acting too much like roommates and you're not having fun together, you're spending too much time together, maybe not enough separateness, not enough dates, have you lost attraction because you're feeling dead inside. There's something that you're grappling with, maybe in your body, maybe in your mental health, maybe you've lost some of your own vitality

because work's not going well. So there's no stock answer to that because I'd have to understand why the loss of attraction is there. And then we can, with work, a couple can bring it back if they understand the why and they work on the why. And especially if there was once a lot of attraction in the beginning, it is something that typically can be resurrected as long as the other things are sort of rectified and worked on. But they're, but that being said, there are just times where like you look at your partner and you see a brother or sister and once you do that, it's over. Yeah, you're not getting those sexual feelings back once it's hit that spot.

I mean, I am a big believer in that. I feel like there's only so much therapy can help in certain things. You can go to therapy all you want. But if something's not there, you can't force something. That's my opinion. I mean, I'm not the specialist, but yeah, but there's always a reason behind it. You know, we're most attracted to others when we witnessed them from afar embodied in their element in the flow state. It's like, oh, there's this person who's like, you know, doesn't, doesn't even notice me at the moment and they're so in their element. And so if we become disconnected to ourselves and we're never in our element and our partners never able to see us in our element becomes problematic. This was a big problem with the pandemic. People stop going to work. They stop dressing up for work. They start, they start, and they are living together all the

time. They're not seeing, they're not, first of all, they're not separating enough. They're not having enough distance. People are feeling down about themselves. They're in their sweatpants all day long. They're not seeing the person like, go out into the world and come back. And so this is why a lot of marriages fell apart. No, I think that's a really good point.

What have you seen happens post-pandemic with relationships then? Well, I mean, people are, I know a lot of couples and work with a lot of people who are still trying to recover from that. You know, they're still trying to figure out like the working from home thing and it's still problematic. I've seen a lot of people who had pandemic relationships and so they're just getting out of those relationships, right? Right, so yeah. A lot of people, a lot of people. I think basically you actually you answer most of my question,

all my questions. So yeah, I think we're good, Jillian, we're good. Where do people find you? Because if they want to hear more information about relationships, talk about your podcast, you have a book, you don't have a book yet. No, you don't have a book. I'm working on the book, writing it right now.

Are you guys coming? Congratulations. Thank you. Yeah. I have my podcast, Jillian on Love. So that is, it's some interviews, but it's a lot of solo episodes of just educating. And it's basically for all people, like, whether you're in a relationship, heartbroken or single, I kind of try to give content for people in all stages of

relationship. Also tons of free content on my Instagram at Jillian Toreki. I also have a, Jillian on Love Instagram, I'm on TikTok. And then of course on my site, which is my hashtag talk. On my site, which is jilliantoreki.com,

my full name.com. Thank you Jillian. I actually love your solo episodes. I think you do a great job. Thank you. How long have you had the episodes, the podcast work? It launched September 7th. So it's new.

Oh wow, it's so new. Yeah. Nice. Oh wow, I didn't realize it was that new. Congratulations. Thank you. You're welcome. When does your book come out?

We'll see. Probably next year. Yeah. Realistically 2024. You just like writing, is that what you're spending most of your time on these days? That's what I'm starting to create more time to be able to do that. Yeah. So I can get that on turbo speed. Oh, who's your publisher?

I'm not permitted to say just yet, but yeah. Okay. All right. I know. I'm sorry, but I will let you know as soon as I'm out to permitted to say just yet, but yeah. Yeah. Okay. All right. I know. I'm sorry, but I won't let you know as soon as I'm out to permitted to say. Yeah.

Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you again. I really appreciate making time. I'm sorry, but last time. So this was like really a treat. Oh, my God. All good.

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. I'm going to speak to you soon again. So I'll be calling on you. OK, amazing. Bye. MUSIC Hope you enjoyed this episode.

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