Habits and Hustle - Episode 271: Laura Gassner Otting: Why Success Doesn't Feel Like It Should + What to Do About It

Episode Date: August 29, 2023

Have you ever wondered what it would take to write a best-selling book? Imagine going from a phone call, to crafting an inspiring narrative, to becoming an acclaimed author. This exhilarating journey comes to life in our conversation with accomplished author and motivational speaker, Laura Gassner Otting. Laura shares her extraordinary evolution as an author, the importance of a book as a marker of legitimacy, and her unique perspective on public speaking. Laura also dives into sales techniques and the life-changing transition from working in an executive search firm to launching her own venture. Laura's emphasis on the significance of client trust and her candid admissions about the role it played in her success are truly enlightening. She also gives us an insight into her fight against self-doubt, and how her achievements served as stepping stones to fulfilling her potential. Laura has appeared regularly on Good Morning America and the TODAY Show, and her writing has been seen in Harvard Business Review, Forbes, HR Magazine. She is the Wall Street Journal bestselling author of three books, including Wonderhell: Why Success Doesn’t Feel Like It Should… and What to Do About It, Limitless: How to Ignore Everybody, Carve Your Own Path, and Live Your Best Life, and Mission-Drive: Moving from Profit to Purpose. Her books have been translated into five languages. What we discuss: (0:00:01) - Laura’s journey into literature and public speaking (0:05:29) - Sales techniques  (0:13:40) - Overcoming self-doubt to fulfill potential (0:25:46) - Influence of your social circle (0:30:02) - Embracing ambition and overcoming doubt (0:40:17) - Gaining strength through belief (0:45:34) - Success, networking and recognizing self-worth (0:52:09) - Emphasizing the importance of support Key Takeaways:  1. Self-doubt and fear can act as catalysts to success: Laura discusses how she navigated self-doubt and used it to fuel her ambition. Instead of letting self-doubt hinder her, she harnessed it as a driving force towards achieving her full potential. She also shares insights on how to manage fear, particularly in public speaking, viewing it as an invitation to adventure rather than a deterrent. 2. Surrounding yourself with the right people is crucial: Laura emphasizes the importance of the people you surround yourself with in shaping your journey to success. She warns about the dangers of having the wrong people in your circle and stresses the need for a supportive network that encourages and sees your worth. 3. Embracing failure and understanding that it's a part of the journey: Laura shares her perspective on failure, seeing it not as a finale but as a fulcrum from which we learn and grow. She suggests making a list of your proudest achievements and acknowledging the failures and lessons along the way, as these experiences contribute to personal growth and reaching your next goal. Thank you to our sponsors:  Go to HelloFresh.com/50hustle and use code 50hustle for 50% off plus free shipping! Go to cozyearth.com and get up to 35% off site wide when you use the code “HUSTLE” Go to blissy.com/HUSTLE and use code HUSTLE to get an additional 30% off You can save 30% off your first subscription order of Ketone-IQ at HVMN.com/JEN Head over to www.pendulum.com and use code JENCOHEN for 20% off Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off. Head over to oneskin.co and use code HUSTLE15 for 15 % off your entire order. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

I got his Tony Robbins you're listening to Habitson Hustle, fresh it. Laura Gasner-Auding is that's the way you put it right? Okay. Her new book is called Wendere Hell. Her first best seller was Limitless, which I also highly recommend. Before we go right into Wendere Hell because I have a lot of questions, they also saw your TED talk, which was very good. I want to know, how did you become an author,

like double author, what was your evolution? Yeah, so my evolution was in 2007, I got a phone call from Kaplan Publishing and the phone call was this, hi, we'd like you to write a book, are you interested? And I said, oh, come on, who is this? Oh, that was a friend of mine, Craig calling me. And basically what they said was we're writing this change your career series, one about going into nursing, one about going

into teaching, and one about going into nonprofit work. And at the time, I was doing headhunting for nonprofits, university, socially responsible businesses, anybody sort of in the mission-driven space. And I said, sure, why not? I've kind of always wanted to write a book, why not do it? So I wrote a book in 2007, which was this sort of how-to manual type of thing. Put that on the shelf, right? I put it out, I dealt with it,

but put that story out in a shelf fast-forward several years later, it's 2016, and I'm selling that executive search firm to the team of women who helped me build it and I Just kind of had this moment of identity crisis when I'm no longer LGO CEO who am I and I bought a website Laura gasner awding dot com because I'm super clever and Blowing upon it and and the executive producer of TEDx Cambridge called me up and TEDx Cambridge is like one of the big TEDx's. Calls me up and says, it's a big one.

It's a big one. And she says, we just saw your blog post. It's really great. It would make a great talk. Do you want to do a TEDx talk? And I went no way. That's terrifying. I don't want to speak in public.

I've never spoken in public. I don't want to do it. But my kids are in the back seat, and they're like, mom, don't you always tell me we have to do scary things? Don't you always tell me life starts on the other side of the fear and I was like, ah, you don't listen to it, tell you to pick up your socks, but that, that you've brought. So six weeks later, I'm on the stage, I give this TEDx talk and it gets a little attention and I get offers to go speak for money. And I was like, well, the hat's really interesting. I've just spent the last 20 years in the deliverables business where like a four month, six months project,

and I have to finish with like this giant three ring binder, three inch binder of like handing over reports. And now I just go and I talk and you give me money. Tell me more about this job. How interesting. But then I started to notice that the people who were getting paid what I considered real money, right? Like five figures and up all had books.

So I was like, okay, for those people who know I have a book, let? Like five figures and up all had books. So I was like, okay, for those people who know I have a book, let's go back to that shelf, I'm like the nonprofit girl. So that's confusing because that's not what I talk about. And for those who don't know that I have a book, I don't have a book. So I either have brand confusion or no brand. So I was like, I got to get me a book. And since I had written the sort of how-to manual for careers, I had confidence knowing that I could produce, you know, a 40, 60,000-word thing. So I started talking to a bunch of publishing firms to see if they let me write a book under their imprint.

And so I kind of really wrote it mostly because I needed a fancy business card to be legit. Because at the time, I was like, some people get on put on stage for $5,000. some people get put on stage for $50,000 and I don't know that it's necessarily merit-based so it's got to be based in like what are all the specific like markers that they need and a book. A big idea book was one of them. I love the honesty there because it's absolutely true. You know what I mean? Like the truth is now everybody in their dog writes books

because they want to have a business card or something to hawk, right? Yes. And so there's that. And the fact is, you're right, there's a huge gap between the $3,000 speakers and like the $100,000 speakers. And a lot of times it has nothing to do with anything, but the book is maybe one of it.

And having the right kind of contacts, and representation, and all the other stuff to get that. So, are you speaking then, is that kind of how your business is? Now, do you speak most of the time? I do. So, I have a course, and I do some coaching, but honestly, none of that's really scalable. And I really like, I enjoy getting up on stage in front of 500 people or 5,000 people and doing a talk that I know that if I tell a story a specific way, that lady in the first row is going to cry. And if I tell the story in a different way,

that guy in the second row is going to be nodding along. And I'm just, I find it so fascinating. Like, how do you move people by walking that line between being aspirational and inspirational and relatable right? So like I'm one that aligned is like like that person's inspiring they've climbed that Everest they've you know been to space they want a Super Bowl like wow I'm so inspired by them but then there's aspirational like I'm never gonna climb that wow I'm so inspired by them. But then there's aspirational like I'm

never going to climb that Everest. I'm never going to space and never want a super bowl. But maybe I could run a marathon like that person did or maybe I could start a business like that person did. So I'm going to aspire to be like them. So I try to be like I try to inspire people to move but be sort of aspirational enough that they can see themselves in my story. But relatable enough that they can see themselves doing the thing, but relatable enough that they can see themselves doing the thing that they actually wanna do. I just spoke in Austin to like a thousand people, and at the end of the event,

somebody came up to me, and she gave me what I considered to be the biggest compliment in speaking. She said, I loved what you had to say. I laughed, I cried, I feel like you were talking just to me, but honestly, I came up to you because I wanna know who makes your pants, because they're amazing.

Are they the red pants? Are they the red pants? Well, so I have those red pants in yellow and green. And if you don't guess, they are the red pants, but they were yellow, the ones I was wearing up. But the fact that she was like, that was amazing and also you're relatable enough that I feel like I can come ask you about your pants. I was like, yes, I did it.

You won. Yeah, I mean, for me, I did it. You won. Yeah. I mean, for me, this is like a bonus career. I'm having a really good time doing it. And it was so terrifying to me at first that now going out there and just like living into this full version of myself, like a version of me that I didn't know existed four or five years ago has been a really fun sort of like midlife learning opportunity. That's amazing.

By the way, who are those past five because I do like them too? They're by Alice in Olivia. Oh, they are. Yes. Oh, okay. They're great pants. I saw them. I was like, wow, I like her pants.

I didn't see that too. That is really funny. They're good pants. They're really good pants. I have a number of New York Times bestselling authors, Olympic medalists, all kinds of amazing people who now wear those pants because they've seen me and they have seen about those pants.

I feel like I should be like an Alice in Olivia Vassiter or something. You should definitely be that you pay you because they should. Or they're just very flattering on you. I don't know, but I did notice them myself. They, I think they're flattering on everybody. They're those kinds of pants.

Wow, well, okay, now that I know, I'm gonna go to their website after. Okay. Okay, so let's talk about, so did you own the executive search firm and then you sold it? I did, I did, I owned it. I have been working out a big executive search firm

like the like, you know, Markey Best in Class type firm. And I just had this sort of moment of rage one day where I was like, there's a better way to do this work. Like there's a faster, better, more authentic, more integrity, better for the clients, better for me. They can be charged less, I can make more, like everything about, I just like, I saw a better way and I walked into my boss's office one day

and I was like, there's a better way and he was like, there's the door. So I started my own firm mostly because once I realized I wasn't part of the solution for my clients, it left me in only one place, which is that I was part of the problem and that was untenable for me. Wow. So did you do mostly tech people? Is that what you do? No, it was all C-suite.

So it was CEO, CFOs, Chief Marketing Officers, Chief Operating Officer, Chief Strategy Officers, and Board Level positions. Oh, across the board. Like in any of the boards. Yeah. Oh, wow. So all C-suite, senior level, C-suite,

and above for, like I said, nonprofits, foundations, university, social, responsible businesses, advocacy organizations, service organizations. So 501c3 and c4 and then a whole broad range of political people. So you must be a great salesperson. You know, it's really funny that you say that because I never consider myself a salesperson and I am actually kind of a raging introvert. Like I could talk one on one all day long and I can get on stage and talk to 5,000 people, but if you ask me to like, talk to 10

or work a room at a party, I will curl up and fetal position because it's really terrifying, terrifying to me. So the thought that I was in sales really kind of freaked me out at first. Like it didn't feel good, it didn't feel authentic. And then what I realized was we're all in sales. Like every one of us is in sales.

Like I wasn't selling talent, I wasn't selling research, I wasn't selling strategy, I was selling trust. Totally. And if my clients trusted me, then everything else was taken care. Like we all sell trust all day, every day. So I've been sleeping on these blissy pillowcases lately,

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silk pillowcases on the market burn-on. So try nowL-I-S-S-Y.com slash hustle and use the code hustle to get an additional 30% off. Sleep cooler this fall with Blissy. I also think that like the fundamental trait that you someone has to have for success is you have to be a good salesperson. You're going to be selling yourself, you know, for people to like you, to believe in you, to trust you, whatever, you're going to sell a product, a widget. Like, if you don't have that fundamental down, you're going to have a hard time. And that's why people who come from your background, I find always do well, like later on because it's a, you're selling like, you're selling somebody.

You're selling people you're selling somebody. You're selling people literally. Yeah. And I mean, what I realized that the day that I got good at selling was the day that I realized that my clients didn't care about my problem. Right. My problem was that I needed more money. I needed more clients. I needed more because I needed to like make my nut.

Right. Yeah. I mean, I need to close the deal. Yeah. care about that. So I used to go in and I would give this amazing pitch. And I mean, I was so geeked out about, like I was really good at pitching.

And I was pitching, like all the super geeked out, different new way that we were doing the executive search. And I didn't sell any more. And then one day, and I was like, I don't understand. Like I'm happy and I'm thorough. And I'm, you know, I've prepared like everything, like all the eyes are dot all the tears across. Why aren't I selling anything?

Everything's great. And then one day I had the gift of having a friend of mine on the search committee that was making a decision. And afterwards this friend called me up and I was like, I'm like, all right, so we got the work, right? And he was like, no. I was like, what are you talking about? Like, we crushed it.

Like, what are you talking about? And he goes, Laura, do you find the world's best talent? I was like, yeah, we're an executive search firm. Man, that's table stakes. Of course we do. Like I was dumbfounded at his stupidity. Right. And he says to me, dumbfounded at my stupidity. He's like, you learn every other firm starts with that that and you never even say it. You were so busy talking about your process that we didn't even know that you saw our problem. And then the very next search I was like, pitch, I went in and I was like, hi, my name's Laura Gastner-Oding and we find the very best talent.

Now let me tell you how we do it. And I sold every single thing after that. I was like, oh, they don't care about my problem that I need to, you know, catch them. They care about their problem, which is that they need to replace their CEO. And so I show them that I see their problem, that they don't understand that I get their problem, that our problem is, that like their problem is our problem, and so our share problem goes away. And that was such a tiny, but profoundly fundamental shift in the way that I approach selling.

And it's actually changed the way I approach everything. It's the way that I approach speaking. It's the way that I approach parenting. You know, like my kids come home and they have a problem and I'm not like, oh, here's the big solution. I'm like, oh, that seems hard. You seem stressed, right? Like, I have to like see them in their problem.

Yeah. And then everything else changes. It's empathy, right? Like, I think sometimes people always look for a solution. You know, especially people who are more type A, we want to look for the solution, but not take a step back and then just have like, just to be a sounding board or a show empathy, which goes so much further sometimes.

It goes so much further. It took me so long to understand that my kids didn't want the solution until they understood that I recognized their pain. Like, they needed, they needed to be honored in their pain before they could like brainstorm a solution. And once I honored them in their pain, they're like, yeah, it's hard.

Do you want to brainstorm a solution? Yes. And then it was fine. But if I went right to solution, they like ground their feet in. And it just became harder. And I think we're solution, they like ground their feet in and it just became harder. And I think we're all eight-year-olds. We really are, honest. I agree, because even with I, when I have a problem,

I don't, I want someone just to like, listen to me vent. Yes. You know, I don't want that to be like, well, you know what you should be doing? Is this, this, this, and this? Because that just gets you your backup. Right, I mean, it dishonors you.

It dishonors your feelings. It makes you, frankly, it doesn't make you into the hero of your own story. It makes you the victim. It makes them the hero of your story. Right. And we all want to be the hero for our own story. Absolutely. So then let's now get into Wonder Hell and how it came to be.

So it's been out for a little bit and it's already said on the Wall Street Journal bestseller's list. Congratulations. Thank you. And so number one, what is Wonder Hell? Let's start with the obvious. Yes. And then we can move on from this. Yeah.

So Wonder Hell is the space in between who you were yesterday and who you just realized you could become tomorrow. So every time we achieve anything, whether it's this huge thing like selling your company or small thing like selling your very first search, you're like, oh, that was exciting. It was amazing. It was humbling. It was wonderful. And also, I wonder what else I could do. I wonder how much more I could do. And it's overwhelming. And it's anxiety for booking. And it's stress-induc inducing and it's imposter syndrome, you know, introducing. So it's wonderful, but it's hell. It's wonder hell. And wonder hell is the space where the burden of your potential walks into your psyche and goes, Hey, what you got for me? Huh?

Like what are you going to do with this newfound potential, this newfound view that you now can see that you didn't know existed last week, last month, last year. You're going to live into it? You're going to let it pass you by. Right, because once you see yourself doing something, it's very hard to unsee yourself doing it, right? Yes, absolutely. And in 20 years of doing executive search, I noticed that external candidates always left if they didn't get the job. And sometimes it was because they were, you know, sad or they were fender, they were treated badly, but mostly, even if they were treated great, it was because the very process of interviewing for that job, and they literally had to wear the clothes

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Woohoo! You know what's so interesting, right? Like before we even talk about that, right? Because once you see, envision yourself, envision yourself somewhere, like like you know Steve Harvey does do you know who Steve Harvey is you know he's the comedian he doesn't fit that I saw a long time ago that he's like everyone's just sitting first class one time because once you sit in first class you're never gonna want to sit and

coach again because it's the seats are bigger you know you get your cloth the napkin warm nuts warm nuts, the warm nuts, and so you're gonna do everything from that point on to make sure that you're doing things that you can always sit in first class, right? And it's true, right? Like you get like a whiff of the good life, so to speak, and you can't unwhip it.

I guess that's how you put it. You can't unwhip it. You can't unwhip it. So guess that's what you put it in. You can't unwip it. You can't unwip it. So, but before we even talk about that, let's talk about self-doubt in general, right? Because most people, before they even are at that place, I'm curious to get your thoughts on how people can even overcome their doubt

in the first place, to even get to a place where they can vision themselves in that place. Yeah, I mean, I think self-doubt comes in a lot of different ways. And, you know, one of the ways it comes most is when we get to a place we never thought we could get to, we look around and we're like, okay, so I'm just going to keep doing what I did and hope it's going to get me where I'm going. And we know that what God is here isn't going to get us there.

And so the first thing we experience then is failure, right? Like, the thing that we did to get here isn't the thing that's going to get us there, so it's not working. And then the voices start coming into our head. Either those voices are inside of our head, telling us we're not good enough, we don't belong, we're imposterous, or there are people outside of us saying maybe you're dreaming too big, maybe you're too big for your bridges, or you're sure you should do that, it's too scary, right? Most it's because they're thinking, I don't know if I could do it, I'm too scared. But all of these little seeds, like they germinate in our brain and they become like these cancerous weeds, and they admit it's something goes wrong, we go, oh, I guess they were right.

I guess this is as far as I'm going to go. But the truth is, what got us to hear isn't going to get us to there, but what got us to hear is the ability to learn lessons, to build a network, to get us to there, but what got us to hear is the ability to learn lessons, to build a network, to get smarter, to fail, to pick ourselves up over and over and over again. So what we have to remember is that what got us to hear isn't going to get us to there, but it is the foundation on which we build the lessons that we learn to get to the next place. It's not that we're not good, we're just not good yet. Right, right, right, right. But how did we handle people take that and're not good, we're just not good yet. Right, right, right.

But how do we have the people take that and really believe it, right? You can say it, but you have to then act at the end of the day. I think it's understanding that the time horizon is longer. So it's not, like failure is not finale. It's full-cloth. It's the place from which we learn and we grow and we iterate and we change. And so what I often tell people to do is if you're full of doubt and you don't know if you can do the next thing, make a list of all the things that you are proudest of in

your life so far. And then make a list next to them how you felt going into that. Were you confident that you could do it 100% without a doubt you were absolutely going to succeed? Or were you not so confident? What did you need to learn to get there? And what you start building, you start building a track record.

Because emotions have a hard time arguing with facts. So you have facts that you can lay out and you can see, here's a roadmap of the things that I learned how to do. Here's where I failed along the way. Here's where I got better. Here's where I got smarter. Here's what that lesson led to that then brought me to the next thing.

You actually see that it's this longer horizon of where you are. The other thing I tell people to do is on that list of things, the places where you failed and you decided not to go forward, what door to that open that you weren't expecting, that also was something that was interesting. So along the way, like the only interesting people I interviewed in 20 years of executive search were the ones who made right turns and left turns and new turns. So all of the picking yourself up and figuring it out actually makes us much more interesting people. Also, by the way, I have a real bone to pick with this Instagram meme of follow your passion.

Like follow your passion. Says all you need to do is find your passion and then you just Follow it and everything's gonna be great hunky-dory easy money But the truth is that your passion is gonna gut you it's gonna throw you down It's gonna have its way with your bank account right it is going to tear you apart Be falling down and getting up and falling down and getting up What you will do because you're passionate about that thing is what actually makes you good at the thing about what you're passionate. Doesn't your passion deserve that? So I think for me, it comes down to understanding that past is prologue.

The long and winding road that got us to here is full of failure and doubt and uncertainty. It's no different than what's to come. We just have to remind ourselves that even you know, even though we, you know, we find ourselves at higher and higher heights and we think more people are paying attention to us and watching us and they're going to see us fail. They're really not because nobody's paying them attention to us in the first place. No one cares. No one cares.

I mean, my favorite Eleanor Roosevelt quote is, we would worry much less about what people thought about us if we realized how seldomly they did. Oh yeah, absolutely. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. I talk about this kathnazium. worry much less about what people thought about us if we realized how seldomly they did. Oh yeah, absolutely. Nobody cares. Nobody cares. I talk about this kattnazium. Like everyone is so self-involved

that we actually are so self-involved to believe that other people give a sh** what we're doing. Exactly. Exactly. And they don't. All the time, I'm like, you know how word you are that everyone's looking at you? Well, if everyone else is that worried about you looking at them,

I don't have any time to think about absolutely. Absolutely. I'm looking at them in the first place. It's a hundred percent true. Like people are like, well, I posted this on Instagram, didn't you see? I'm like, no, I wasn't paying attention. I was like scrolling fast and I wasn't like looking at it. Sorry.

You know, like, it's just we were so self-involved as a society in general. Or whatever. We have our own problems, our own issues. We're trying to like, you know, level up our own lives. We're trying to level up our own lives. We're not paying any attention. And if people realized that, we would be so much more productive, happy, you name the adjectives.

You know, it's so true. When Wonder Hill came out, there were a lot of people who I really thought were gonna post about the book, tweet about the book, and write about the book, or we're gonna just text me and be like, how's it going? Right, congratulations.

Rickets, nothing. And then there were people who I don't even know who showed up like crazy for me, right? And part of me was like a little, in my feels about the whole thing. Like I can't believe so and so I didn't post it. And there are can't believe so and so I was objected in. And then one day I woke up and I realized you know everybody is going through

something that none of us know anything about and I have no idea what's happening in the world if they're busy maybe they hate me I have no idea but it's their problem until I make it my problem and if I decide to make it my problem that that's like drinking poison every day, right? Like why would I choose to do that? So like there's this great quote by Andrew R. Hall which I'm not gonna get exactly right, but it's something like make your art and while all the other people they're busy thinking about what they think about your art,

just keep making more art. Like just keep going, like just keep doing your thing and your art will find the people that your art is for. And everyone else who cares? Exactly. I always say, you know, you know, water always finds its level, but it's true. Like the truth of the matter is I find that also with my book and everything in life, not just my book, whatever, that it's always the people though you least expect to come out of the woodwork to be the most supportive or you find your best opportunities with. It's never the people that you assume are going to be there. I found it's true. It's really,

I mean, I was, I was also similar to you, it was like, this is really strange. I thought, this one and this one was going to do this and that, right? And it was like, not at all, you know what I mean? Yeah, and I think the danger is when we act generously with expectation of reciprocity, that's where the real heartbreak lies. And so, you know, I sort of had this choice, like, do I stop acting generously? Do I stop acting abundantly?

It's start keeping score. Or do I just say, you know what? I'm just, even though that person didn't post about my book after I posted about their book, when their next book comes out, should I post, should I not post, should I remember how am I gonna remember who posted it? And when I was just like, screw it, I'm just gonna keep being abundant and posted about everybody

and I don't care. Like that's who I am. And if I let other people's selfishness, worst case scenario, or just, you know, lack of focus, best case scenario, affect who I am when I shine my light brightest in the world, then I'm making their problem, my problem. And it's, I don't, I just don't wanna live that way.

It's like a really dark and yucky way to be. True, true, it's hard though, like it's hard not. It's, you gotta really be conscientious about it, because it's easy to be like, you know, keeping score, like I remember, and I'm not gonna do that. But to your point, usually like, you know, you pay it for it, it comes back, does it maybe not with those people,

but it will in some other way. Absolutely, now they'll get me wrong, listen, if somebody actively screws me, I'm not gonna be like, sure, no problem. I'll post about all your stuff, you know. I mean, like my memory is long, you know Right, so fine. I am as I run and wonder how I am quite in favor of burning bridges It takes a really long time for me to burn that bridge, but man when that bridge needs to be burned

I show up with you know bonfire stinks. I love that. Okay talk about that Talk about the burning of the bridges because I think that's something again that's not for a usual, but go ahead and talk about that. Yeah, I just think that there are people who have been in our lives a lot of them because they've always been in our lives, right? Like we've just known them since elementary school or whatever it is, and they're just not additive, right? There's some who, as I mentioned, maybe they see you when they're like,

oh, you can't do the Vets too scary, what they really mean is I can't do that. I'm too scared. Or maybe they're jealous and they see your rise only through the lens of their own stagnation. Maybe they even love you, right? They love you and they don't want to see you get hurt. And so when you come to them with your big hairy audacious goals, they kind of like plant these seeds of doubt. And those seeds, they kind of like plant these seeds of doubt.

And those seeds, they just germinate. Like they just can't help but be fertilized by our own brain chemistry. So I think that there are people in our lives who we give votes to who shouldn't even have voices, first and foremost. We got to stop giving votes in our lives to people who shouldn't have voices. But then I think they're the people who, when they drop these sort of seeds of discontent and jealousy and scorekeeping and scarcity, that stuff is contagious. It's really contagious. And I think it's really hard not to fall into that. You know, there's that old Jim Rohn quote that says, you're the average of the five people closest to you. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. By the way, that quote is bullshit. I mean, he said it, but there's no science to back up. Right, you just said so. And that people kind of glombed onto it. Yeah, people glombed on it. So there is science behind the idea that if your friends are obese, for example, you are 67% more likely to be obese, right? If your friends are smokers, you're 67% more likely to be smokers. Like if your friends have smokers or 67% more likely to be smokers,

like if your friends have bad habits or have, you know, bad behaviors, you are more likely to have them than not. And the science goes even further and it says, he's only going to have to be people that are like in your close geographic proximity. So it's not something you're living in your house or down the street or the friend you have lunch with every day. This is the people you consume every day online. So if the five people who you consume every day online are misogynists, if they're racist, if they're not nice people, if they're scarcity minded, you will slowly become one of those people. Because what they socialize, you socialize, what they think, you think, what they normalize,

you normalize, but they think you think, but they normalize, you normalize. And so for me, when somebody is repeatedly a bad actor, making bad choices, not being, you know, pro-human, right? They're not being a good person. I push them out of my life. I'm done. Like, I end it. And, you know, if you're not so comfortable burning the bird, I think you can also extend the bridge, right?

Like, just take a little longer to return a text, take a little longer to return an email. Eventually, those people will find someone else to pick up all their garbage. Right, and I think a lot of times it can be very subconscious. People talk from their experience a lot of times. If they live a very myopic way and they've only done one thing, don't be asking somebody for advice or listen to someone who's never even done anything even quite like that before. Oh my God, I literally went on a rant about this

on Saturday. I was like, I wanna get T-shirts printed up that say before you tell me where to go, or before you tell me what to do, show me what you've done. Yeah, and the back of it, it's like hashtag. hashtag, give me your PNL. Yeah, yeah, yeah of it. It's like hashtag hashtag. Give me your P N L. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's so true. But we have all of these people. Like I just saw

a post yesterday of this guy who was like, I'm starting a speaker mastermind. And like the whole thing is like, do you want to speak for money? Do you want to get on big stages? Do you want to stop being paid and quote exposure? And I'm thinking myself, he's never made money on something. Why is he trying to tell other people like me and Emily have all this? That's a whole lot of stuff. This is by the way, this is a whole other podcast that I can talk about this thing all day. Me and a bunch of my friends who are on social media, it is one of my biggest pet peeves. All these people selling things that they have no business selling.

But they've never done. They've never done. They're all snake oil salesmen They know they are they're very Shrewd internet marketers and they know how to make a nice funnel and get your attention But the problem is a lot of people who don't know any better don't decipher between the ones who are good and bad And to me that's really awful because you're literally stealing money from a bunch of people. I know literally, literally said to the front of my mind, like, it makes my heart sad that people are going to give these people money. They're crushing it. We don't, not like not some people. These people are making millions of dollars, praying

on people, because they are really good at internet marketing, digital marketing. Yes. Yes. And it is, you know, and it is, and so what's the advice? The advice is if you're going to hire somebody to teach you what to do, ask them if they've done it already, right? Like, have them tell you stories from yes and well. Like, have they done it? Have they done it? Well, like, don't hire a business coach who's never built a business.

Don't hire an exocote who's never sold business. Or, you know, welcome to social media. Right, like it might not even be their business, but like they've helped multiple people sell businesses, right? Like it's just like what, like we, we have to stop asking for directions from people who have never taken the journey. Yeah, 100% I agree. Okay, going back to Wendell, talk about that, you made this whole thing and the book is like an amusement park, right? Yes. Okay, you talk about three towns. It's a imposter town doubtsville and burnout city. Yes. Okay. Tell me about those towns and then well just tell me about them. Yeah, so I created the book to be like an amusement park because the whole idea of the book is like every time we achieve success we think it's gonna be the end. We think we're finished.

We think we got to the end of the journey. We think it's going to be easier from there. It's going to be fun. And it's kind of like an amusement park where you go and it's three o'clock in the afternoon and you're like, I'm a little sunburn, I'm a little dehydrated. And that corn dog and my stomach is not getting along so well with the cotton candy that I'm stress-seating as I'm waiting for the rollercoaster. I don't even want to go on.

Right? So I was like, that would be great. And I was actually talking with my work wife, as a woman who I talk with every Tuesday morning, who has been down the path. Her name is Rahaf Farfush and she said, God, what if you made it like a map and it was like, you are here, right? And so there's these three towns in Posture Town, Downsville, and Burnout City, and Posture Town is where we're like, huh, I think I want more.

Is it okay to want more? Am I allowed to have more? Am I allowed to want more? We have this moment of not knowing if we're allowed to dream those bigger dreams. And so what we learn in the first part of the book about in Poster Town is how to embrace our ambition. The second part of the book is called Doubtful. And that's where like we realize that everything we thought we knew for certain is wrong and the only thing for certain is that we know nothing for certain and that every new level brings a new devil and it keeps teaching us all the things that we didn't know and that we have to figure out the next one.

So that's when we learn how to renegotiate our relationship with these emotions. So all of the doubt and uncertainty and anxiety, these aren't limitations telling us not to go forward, but invitations telling us that we're actually on the right track, that we're pushing towards something we didn't know we could do, and how amazing is that. And then the last part of the book is called Burnout City. And what I talk about in Burnout City is that every one of the hundred glass ceiling shatters, Olympic medalist, startup unicorns, CEOs, entrepreneurs, thinkers, creators, philanthropists, everyday people like you and I, who I spoke to when I found myself in Wonder Hell and tried to figure it a way out.

All of those people actually never found the way out of Wonder Hell because on the other side of their Wonder Hell was just the next one and the next one and the next one after that I learned that Wonder Hell loves a repeat visitor and so it's not about learning how to get through it and survive it It's about learning how to look forward to it and be excited by it and learn from it and and thrive in it instead and then in each of These sections there's different rides that evoke all the emotions that we have. I really like that. The part that I love is you put something about like turning your limitations into invitations. Yes.

It's cute. What is that? Tell the audience. Tell the listeners. Tell the people. Tell the people. So every time we see something we haven't done before, there's a voice inside our head that says, oh no, I've not done this before. And if we change the way we interpret that voice, not as the sort of governor who stops us from going too hard and getting hurt, but as a cheering section that goes, oh wow, I've not done this before and changes it into an adventure. That changes

the way that we interpret these feelings. Just like, you know, they say that the number one fear that people have is public speaking. The number two fear that people have is death. The number three fear that people have is getting bitten by a snake. So like, you're definitely going to survive public speaking, and you're probably going to survive getting bitten by a snake, but you're probably not going to survive death. And yet death, not the number one fear. I know. It's so crazy. This is crazy. But what does it feel like when you're about to get on stage

or you're about to do something that terrifies you? Your heart starts racing. Your stomach starts fluttering. Your knee starts shaking. You start to sweat a little bit. But what does it feel like when you're really excited about something? Your heart starts racing.

Your stomach has butterflies. Your knee is starting to not get seen. The exact feeling. So the way that these your knees start knocking. Same exact feeling. So the way that these emotions manifest in our bodies are the same. So we can either continue them by saying, I'm scared, I'm scared, I'm scared. And we could say, actually,

this is just a sign that I'm excited. Lucky me, I'm glad to be here. And we can elevate ourselves into moving forward. Because the hard thing about doing hard things isn't the hard. It's just the do. It's the getting started. Like you don't have to be brave for 60 minutes on stage.

Just be brave for 60 seconds as you're walking out. And then the momentum takes over and you find yourself in flow. Right, right, right, hopefully, hopefully. Unless you hire one of these guys. Did you have a good time? Yeah, then maybe this is a whole other situation. And then you'd say something, I don't know, I heard it on one of the things, but,

because we talk a lot about transferable skills, but you say something called translatable skills. Yes, yes, okay, what is that? So why was talking before about how everything that got you to hear won't get you to there? Yeah. So say, you know, say you have been working your entire career in sales, for example. And what are the skills that you need for sales? You need to be able to research your prospects.

You need to be able to make the ask. You need to be able to steward somebody through something. You need to understand how to follow up. You need to understand a product. You have to like, there are certain skills you have to have. Those skills are not going to transfer directly to, say, raising money on behalf of a nonprofit, because maybe you're not selling lawnmowers to raise money for a nonprofit, but all the things that you had to do, those skills will transfer over, or, sorry, they'll translate over. So, if you're raising money for a nonprofit, you still have to research your prospects. You still have to figure it out when to ask. You still have to research your prospects, you still have to figure it out, you still have to ask, you still have to store the donor, you still have to understand the mission.

So, a lot of times we think about leveling up or changing our careers or moving it to something we haven't done before as this sort of literal thing. I haven't done it so I'm not going to be able to do it. And we stop at the borders of our 9-5 job also. So we think, what are the skills that I've had there, what's the network, what have I've been able to accomplish in that job? When really we need to do two things. We need to think not just about directly transferable skills, column A, column A, but how does column A translate into possibly column B or column C or column D? And also what other skills do I have from outside

of my paid work, from volunteering in my community or my place of worship or raising my family, what other kinds of skills have I developed? Because those are all the skills that they can translate into other things that we might be doing. So they're pretty transferable and translating, you're still using the same skills that you harness from something else and putting them towards something else. So the translatable and transferable, they still seem pretty similar, no? Well, so the transferable skills is like,

I was a sales person here, I'll be a sales person there, right? It's complete, it's the same thing. But, for what I said, you're saying. Yeah, I'm thinking something different. I'm saying if I'm good in sales, doing selling this widget, I can still take that same essence

of knowing how to sell and sell this other widget. Like it doesn't have to be the same thing. Right, so that's a transferable skill. That's direct. That's, you know, they're very similar. Let's go the other direction, right? Let's go from fundraising into sales. Say you're your mom you'd

stay at home with your kids, you've raised your kids and they are now in school and you want to go back into the workforce. But what have you been doing for the last 10 years in addition to raising your kids? You've volunteered for their schools, you've raised money for the PTA, you raised money for the local you know park cleaning service, you're you're you know all the things that you've done, you've organized volunteers, you've you've pitched people in power, all of those skills, those are all skills that you use in sales. So say that stay at home mom, who has been like the head of fundraising for the PTA every year for 10 years and has raised tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars, she can easily walk into a sales job because she understands how do I research my prospect? How do I create a case?

How do I make the pitch? How do I steward the prospect? Like, she understands how to do that because those skills, while they're not directly transferable, they translate into the same sort of work that you're actually doing. I understand. And a lot of times a stay-in-home mom will say, well, I don't have any work experience. I really can't go back into the workforce, or I have to start the very ground level. When in fact, she has a ton of skills.

She's just not seeing them as a sort of literal transferable way. She's not connecting to dots, basically. Correct. I got that. OK, that makes sense. One thing I love doing is taking ideas and making them real. And that's what this podcast is. And I couldn't do it without a ton of help from amazing people. So when I wanted to start selling online, I found the perfect business partner.

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daily. Plus you guys can take 20% off your first month of any pendulum product membership with this code, Jen Cohen. So go now to pendulumlife.com and use my code at checkout. Trust me, you will feel incredible. So then how do people then, Katie, want, like, I've still on the fact that, like, once you see yourself doing something, it's really hard to unsee it. Yeah. So then how do you get the confidence then from that to play bigger, to dream bigger, and go after things?

Like they didn't get the one job from you, right? But then what? Now what do they do then? How do they do that? How do they, what's there when they call you back because now they've seen themselves in a certain way? What's the next step to kind of move towards that dream or do a little bit more? Well, so usually at that point they have the confidence because they saw themselves

and they're like, oh, I don't know what to say anymore, right? So let's talk about the people who have been told, who haven't didn't even have the interview. Like how do you get the confidence to throw your hat in the ring, right? Yes. And especially women, a lot of women,

like we are told that we shouldn't be too ambitious, right? Like don't be too ambitious. I don't think ambition's a dirty word. In fact, I think ambition is a good idea. No, I don't think so either. I think... I think ambition's great. I have no problem with the word ambitious, driven, audacious, bold, all of them.

Yes. And go with them all. That's amazing. And I love that. A lot of women don't, a lot of women are told to, like, you know, hold back, be quiet, right? Like, don't make a fuss. So, like, don't stand out. Don't stand out, right?

Yeah, yeah. Don't threaten anybody. Don't be too threatening. Don't be too competent, right? All that nonsense. Yes. Okay, so how do we do it? A lot of times, it takes having somebody who can see your promise reflect that promise

back to you. So, if we find ourselves mentors, we find ourselves champions. If we surround ourselves with people who we aspire to be because we think that they're kind of kicking ass, often once we've gotten to know them over a period of time, they will turn back to us and say, what about you? When are you going to do this? And those are those moments that when your champion sees you and really reflects back on you the greatness that they see, it's often hard to see it. I ran my first mile of my life when I turned 39 years old, like, of my life, ever. And I'm now training for my sixth marathon. So really?

Yes. So how did I get from like never running a mile, like Jim Klaasero, to like training for a sixth marathon and being on a master's competitive rowing team Jim Class Hero because it took me six weeks to run that first mile at the end of the mile like huffing and puffing I was all hopped up in and door friends and I was like you know if I string three of those together I could do a three I could do a five yeah and I say do a five K like literally do not run but do yeah yeah but at the end of that five K and I say do a five K, like literally do not run, but do. Like, do a five K. But at the end of that five K six weeks later, it's like a five string two of those together.

I could do a 10 K. And again, the 10 K was like, well, you know, if I string two of those together and maybe 10 fun another mile, I could do a half marathon. And I live in Boston, home of one of the major marathons, you know, this is going. So I decide I'm gonna sign sign up for the Boston Marathon.

Like why not? I'm going to see if I could do it. And I go into the very first training session. And at this point, I had only run 10 miles. I hadn't even like actually finished the full half marathon yet. And the coach was there and I went up to him and I was like, man, I don't know if I can do this. Like I have an I've only run 10 miles. I'm not sure I've got my first half marathon next week. Look, let's see. And he looked at me with this like Yoda like calm. And he goes, normal. You can do it. I believe in you. And I'm here to help. And I swear to God, I looked right back at him. I went, I can do it. You believe in me. And you're here to help. And he was like, yes. And he literally like turned my shoulders and like set me on my way

And just the fact that this man who had trained Thousands of charity marathon runners. So like charity IE slow, right? Not experienced right the fact that this man who had done this thousands of times looked at me and was like, I see you. And I believe in you. I was like, oh, okay. And I tell people all the time that if I have any superpower whatsoever, it's that I can look at somebody and in fairly short order, see what makes them great and reflect that back on them in ways that they can finally see it for the first time ever or believe they're enough to act upon it. And sometimes I really just think all it is is somebody seeing you and being like,

I believe in you, you're gonna do this and you're like, oh, and it just like erases the self-doubt because somebody who you respect sees something in you and if we allow ourselves to see ourselves in the way that our champions see us just once, it changes everything. It's like sitting in first class. I love that. I think it's so true. I think that more than anything, we just need to have somebody.

I said, I just said a whole podcast, but almost. On the idea that it's always, it starts with one person believing in you. And then the rest kind of takes care of itself. And you know, and that's the other thing about burning bridges. Like if they are people who are constantly stomping on your dreams and telling you you can't do it, I think those are the ones that got to go. Yeah, I totally true. Just as much as the ones who see you and believe in you can inspire you. Like I've inspired people to lose 200 pounds in one marathon. I've inspired people to leave full- and run a marathon. I've inspired people to

leave full-time careers to start through on business. I've inspired people to run for office, right? Not because I'm special. It's just because I saw what made them special. I just told them about it. I mean, it was. But that's amazing that you do that, though. A lot of people don't do that. Going back to one of your points earlier, it's like you're looking at the people around you, right? Because those people are going to be the most important people because they'll either push you to be the best version of yourself or keep you hold you down. Yeah, and I'm suppose anything in between.

I think anyone who is not actively pushing you to be the best version of yourself is actively holding you down. Even if they're not actively doing it, I think I think it still sucks energy because we're still all Performing was still all dancing for everyone else and you know, I learned a long time ago Well, I made a promise to myself a long time ago. I should say never to praise in silence Like when I see somebody and they're wearing a pretty scarf I tell them when I see someone and they look like they've gotten fit, like I don't tell you, you look like you've lost weight. I'm like, you look so strong, right?

Like I really believe that we are all just these, like, hurt shy children who just really want to be noticed and recognized. Like I think that they're, I think that they're like a million, billion miles between being loved and being truly seen. Like a lot of us grew up being loved. I worked if we're lucky.

Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, you do your chores, you clean the table, you get good grades, I love you, like you're a good kid. But how many of us grew up feeling like we could fly our freak flag, like fully 100% unfurled in the world and still be loved for being that person. Totally true. I don't know a lot of people like that. So I just, when I realized that that was the difference

between being loved and being seen, I just decided I was going to start seeing people, really seeing them. And I don't know, this is my like, this is my like one woman army. No, I think it's amazing because you and I have a very similar idea, like think, we think similar. I'm always that person who does that and people always looking me like why did you have to say that? I'm like why not like why you always the person who has to always just point out the bad stuff But like I'll go to a random stranger or at the gym be like you look really great or I love that sweater or whatever that is and everyone's like just so weird like? Like, just as easily, you can make someone smile by just saying something out loud that you're thinking,

why wouldn't you do it? Why wouldn't you? And also, you cannot help but be happier when you compliment somebody. I never like, you look great in that sweater. Like, you kind of know, right? You can't, like, you see their face light up and it helps you light up and that drops a little dopamine

hit into your brain. And like, it's just like you live longer. It's just better. It's just like that. It's better. It's just better. I agree 100. Yes, that. Okay, so let me just say this.

So the book is called Wonder Hell. Why success doesn't feel like it should and what to do about it. Laura, awning. I mean, Laura, gasner awning. Is gasner your maiden name? Gaston is my maiden name, but I spent four years working in the White House. By the time I became Laura Gaston are awning,

and I just, there's a lot of good connections, not to know who the hell I was. I think I'm 100% are awning. I think that makes sense. What did you do in the White House, by the way? So, have you heard of the AmeriCorps National Service program? No, what is that?

OK, so it's a service program where young people, 18 to 24, can do community service in exchange for some college tuition. And when I was in law school and I heard then Governor Bill Clinton talking about this idea, I was like, that sounds really smart. You change your community while you change yourself. I should drop out of law school because I hate it here. And that sounds like a great idea. So I did. And he ended up in the White House and so did I should drop out of law school because I hate it here. And that sounds like a great idea. So I did.

And he ended up in the White House and so did I. Get out. So did you, so did you, so you didn't finish law school then? I didn't finish law school. I was 21 years old, but I was working on that campaign. And yeah, and I walked into the White House at 12.01 after an auguration day. And it is one of the proudest things I've done in my life

of a million and a half young people have served in that program. That's amazing! Will you be are you gonna get mad at me for saying this? Will you be there when Monica Lewinsky was there and then? Of course! Yes! Although I will say this, we were the same age but I didn't know her because I was on staff. Thank you very much and she was just an intern. I stayed up like, I was on staff. Like, there was the bottom wrong of the ladder. And then there's like the step that gets you the bottom right on the ladder. Like, I was clinging on to the step of my fingernails making 17,272 dollars a year. And she was an intern. So she was like, maybe a millimeter beneath me on the

ladder. So but for the grace of God, like, probably where I was probably at parties with her, but yeah, I joke around. I'm like, of course, I didn't know her, but we, my staff members didn't talk to the intern. Right, right, right, right, right. Most of us, we were just a bunch of stuck-up idiots. Right, right, right. Oh my god. That's so funny. So what was your first job after that? So my first job after that was working in an executive search firm. That was your first job. Okay. working in an executive search firm. The big search firm. That was your first job. Okay.

So I went right into it. Yeah, I went right into it because I went to my boss who had run the 1992 campaign and his name was Mamma and Eli Seagull and I was like, Eli, I'm ready to get back on the campaign trail, you know, for the 1996 campaign. He was like, well, you're kind of too old to eat cold pizza and get on campaign buses again because by that time I was like 25, which is dog ears in campaign ears. It is? Well, you're kind of too old to eat cold pizza and get on campaign buses again, because by that time I was like 25, which is dog years in campaign years.

It is? Yeah, I'm like 107. And he was like, And you're not really old enough to be the domestic policy advisor. So maybe go work for my friend Arnie Miller. He runs the biggest search from the world at a specifically mission driven type leadership work.

He'll hide out in a non-profit job for four years and you'll come back and do something big on the Gorg campaign. And I was like, awesome, that sounds like a good plan. Two days later, I'm sitting down with Arnie at the coffee shop at the Mayflower Hotel right across the street from the White House. And I'm five minutes into the conversation with Arnie and I was like, you work in Boston. The guy I'm dating right now who I think is the one is about to move to Boston. I should come work for you and he's like, you should come work for me.

So I became a headhunter. That's how it happened, huh? I was like, Mary to him? Yeah, I was like, number one, what do you do? Like, I'll come work for you. What do you do? Number two, I've just celebrated my 25th anniversary with that guy. So, you know, and...

It worked! Oh my god, that is so nice! Yes, yes, yes. That's such a good story. But now here's the thing, like there are so many people who tell their path like I did this and that I did this and that I did this as if it's this like strategic thing. Nobody has a strategic plan.

Like nobody decides when they're 22, exactly what their whole path is gonna look like and then it works that way, perfectly. So I always, like I could tell the story like well I went to the White House and then as I was in the White House I thought what could I do with this roller dex of amazing people and the mission that I want to serve in the world I could connect to that like I could I could tell the story in like this bullshit strategic way but I feel like it doesn't disservice to anybody which is

everybody right listening who's like I don't disservice to anybody, which is everybody, right? Listening, who's like, I don't know, I don't know what my plan is, like, no, no, it's nothing. It's like you play a game of more, like you throw all the cards in the air, and then you like, pick them up as fast as you can, like, you know, like, it's wrong. It's so true. It's so true. And you don't know what cards coming up next, you know?

Totally. So like, it doesn't, I totally agree. You and I think very similarly, Laura. Oh, it's not more so like it doesn't even, I totally agree. You and I think very similarly Laura. Oh, it's not more wars like when you do one card at a time. I mean, like 52 pick up, right? Oh, but also war because when you play war, it's you're just taking the, you don't know what's underneath. It's just random. There's no strategy to war. It's totally a game, a chance. It's all a game of like who have the better cards like who know? Like who know? My entire strategy is do interesting things with interesting people and interesting opportunities arise 100% that's my entire life strategy. I love it and I

Why all my books or just one strategy? No, but that's exactly that is true though That is and then that is very refreshing the book is called Wonder Hell though guys buy it could is good book and so is limitless and then that is very refreshing. The book is called Wonder Hell Do Guys Bike. It is a good book. And so it's limitless. I thought that was very good. Thank you. You know, you're very welcome.

Well, thanks for coming on the podcast. Working people find more about you. Yeah, so as you said, my name is Laura Gaston or Aadang. Oh my good friends call me LGO, so I'm on all the socials at, hey, LGO, H-E-Y, L-G-O. I mean, everywhere, from Peloton to Spotify, Instagram, like LinkedIn, you name it, I'm A-L-G-O.

Really? Okay. Yeah, really. I love that. Okay. And, you know, brand, brand identity, I guess. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I love gasnerodding.com is my website.

Well, thank you again for being on the podcast. I appreciate it. You were a great gas. Well, thanks for having me. No, absolutely. I'm sorry we didn't get to do this in person, but maybe I'll see you at the Taylor Swift concert. I know. Well, we'll have to be in touch. Yes, definitely give me a good shot. I better figure out where to wear still. It's like a thing. I know. Well, where are pair of those Alice Olivia pants? One color or another. That's what I would do if I were you.

Just we're all like one rainbow. Yeah, they're all very flat right? I told you so I think you should wear them. Yeah, but thank you again and I will hopefully meet you in person soon. We'd love that. Thanks so much. Okay, bye. Bye.

Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

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