Habits and Hustle - Episode 33: Strauss Zelnick – ZMC Founder, Former CEO of BMG and Fox

Episode Date: October 15, 2019

Strauss Zelnick is the founder of Zelnick Media Capital. Zelnick is best known as the chairman and chief executive of Take-Two Interactive Software Inc., a video-game publisher responsible for blockbuster franchises such as Grand Theft Auto, NBA 2K and Red Dead Redemption. He joins us on the Habits and Hustle podcast to discuss his story, leadership, the importance of listening with empathy, and much more.  Youtube Link to This Episode Strauss Zelnick ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass O. Welcome to the Habits and Hustle Podcast. A podcast that uncovers the rituals, unspoken habits and mindsets of extraordinary people. A podcast powered by habit nest. Now here's your host, Jennifer Cohen. All right, so today on Habits and Hussle, we have Strauss Zelnick, who, if you don't know who he is,

you should definitely listen to this podcast because this guy is probably seriously one the most impressive people that you will ever see. The guy is the CEO of Take 2 Interactive, the chairman of CBS just oh by the way on the side. Obviously the private equity stress media, right? A ZMC, it's only media capital. He's a former CEO of Fox and then he left Fox to go run Crystal Dynamics, right? You're a game company, huh?

And then BMG Entertainment. That's how, so when I was working at BMG, when I was a little girl, I knew of you, right? Because I was living in Toronto, and I just knew there was like, this mogul who was the CEO of, was a BMG entertainment, right? It was. It wasn't Burdlesman. It was division of Burdlesman. It was division, but you weren't, you weren't at Burdlesman you were the I was I was CEO BMG the the the recorded music division

apps yeah and I was just like wow one day maybe I can meet him and here we are exactly and then 20 years later. You're just disappointed. Yeah not at all not at all not a disappointment at all which is usually it's rare right because usually when you meet people on you it's kind of like I am like it's a let down, but not this one. So I don't even know, oh yeah. And also an author, he wrote a book called Becoming Ageless, and he's literally the fittest CEO, probably in the world.

Well, it's kind of, it's at least what the public says, but I'll take it, I appreciate it. No, well, it's the truth. So let's start with just the fact that you're 62 years old. And I said to him when I walked in, he looks like he's a Spenderman button because he looks like he's 30. And I heard that your fitness regimen

is off the chain crazy. So because this is Habitson Hassel, I want to know what you do to stay in such a six shape. So you asked me to tell the truth as opposed to the PR version. Yeah, I don't want the PR version. Because I think the problem with answering the question, which I will answer the way it's posed is the implication is everyone should do what I do.

And then, you know, they'll be awesome. And I don't really like, I don't believe in that, nor do I give that advice. I think it's really important for everyone to find his or her own level of fitness. And especially if you're not getting exercise now, I think it's really important to start slowly and gently. And I don't recommend people that they go from sort of a relatively sedentary level to being

incredibly intense. That's not the way it's a way to get injured and a way to reject fitness as opposed to embrace it. You can tell that you have done this before. You're very savvy and media. Great answer. So now tell me what you do. So now what I would do.

I train between depending on the week because I'm busy and like we all are in a really bad week no matter how bad the week is, I'll get five workouts of different types. Okay. And in a really great week where I was, you know, had the time and the inclination on my train as many as 11 or 12 different times. Each session is between 45 minutes and an hour. If I went out for a four hour bike ride, I'd count that as like two or three workouts. Oh, you would.

I wouldn't count that as one workout because it isn't. It's more than that. But generally, when I'm here in the city, so for example, last week, I had a week that worked out really well. I had 12 workouts. Each, no session was more than an hour. And within those 12, there was a great deal of variety. I'm a big believer in variety. Because if you don't do variety, first of all, you get incredibly bored. Secondly, you're going to hurt yourself. Race you cross-train. So I cross-train. Right. And. And I cross train sort of emotionally and intellectually along with physically.

Okay, so let's just start with what time did you wake up in the morning to start? So in the morning like today I was up at five o'clock. Okay. And I was on my bike in Central Park at 6am. Okay, so what did you do between five and six? I'm a, so that's a great question. I used to, because I wanted to sleep longer, because I like to sleep, and everyone needs to sleep. I would look at my workout time, which was six, when I was meeting my friend's cycle, and

I'd roll it back to the last possible moment where I could get out of bed, brush my teeth, put on my gear, get on the bike, and get outside. And when I found, so maybe I'd get up 25 minutes before the work, which would give me enough time to get organized. And what I found was by cutting it so close, I wasn't really psychologically ready for the workout. And I would have to sort of drag my body into it. And I wouldn't really feel good about the workout

until maybe 15, 20 minutes in. And so what I realized is, for the price of getting up 15, 30 minutes earlier, I can bring my body in mind along, and then when I'm finally ready to start exercising, I'm in a much better psychological place. So why do I get up an hour early? I get up, I have a spiritual moment, I have time to shave if I'm shaving that day.

I don't shave everything. Freshman today. I am shaved today, I know I was gonna see you. No, that's right. And I can do some email if I want, and I can feel very organized for the day. I can get an espresso, and I can even just sit and relax for 10 or 15 minutes,

which I sometimes do as I anticipate the workout. What is a spiritual moment? Are you praying? I'm praying. You are. You're actually praying the more you. Okay, what is a spiritual moment? Are you praying? I'm praying. You are. Okay, what's your background? My background's Jewish, but it's not a Jewish tradition. It's sort of an ecumenical tradition. See, I thought you were German.

I am German, but they're German Jews. But I thought you were like, I know they're German Jews. Now I feel like a total moron, but I'm going to edit that. No, I won't. I meant like, I thought you were just solely German. No, no, I worked at a German company. But my prayer practice is a very ecumenical, non-denominational prayer practice.

I mean, for many people, it's really a lot like meditation. So it's not like you're not reading the Torah, authorlessly. Okay, so what kind of, like, what prayer are you doing it? And if it's not good? My own, I mean, it's my own sort of spiritual connected listening, reflective, meditative moment. Are you saying like words?

Are you just like humming? Or what do you? No, I'm saying words, but they would vary day to day, depending on how I'm like a mantra. Not really. More like an expression of gratitude, expressions of our love and concern for people I care about and an intention for the day.

Oh, so you do an intention for the day too. I do, yeah. How long have you been doing this for? About eight years. So because I was going to, I mean, I don't know because I never met you until today. Have you always been like super into like fitness and help? Been fitness for a long time, but not always.

But I'd say really at this level of intensity for the past 15 years. Oh, okay. But I started off very slowly many years ago, and I started getting into fitness in a more serious way in my mid-20s. And then every decade that I aged, I increased the volume and the intensity, because you need to. I agree, that's, tell me about it. I know, like, we all look great at 16. That's what I always say. It's really easy to have like a tight ass and great abs

when you're like 21 and they get much harder. You're gonna work much harder for less results, which is kind of really depressing in a way. I mean, not, for me, not less results, but you do have to work harder and smarter and with more expertise. Well, with more expertise, for sure. Well, because you also lose lean muscle mass as you age, right?

You're not necessarily. If you do weight bearing exercise, you know. I was gonna say, but that's why I always say, like, strength training workout is like having at some kind of strength training exercise regimen is much more important than just like hours and hours of cardio. So that's what's gonna say.

So you go today, for example, then you go for your bike ride for how long? I always just have for 45 minutes. Okay, and then what? Like do you work out again? I'm gonna work out again when we're done. Really? Okay, so liquid you're gonna do when we leave.

I'm gonna work out with a trainer and that'll be some movement work, some weights work, and probably knowing him some cardio work at the end. And that's for an hour? Just shy of an hour, probably 55 minutes. Now, do you work out at home? Do you work out? No, that'll be it at gym.

Which gym do you? It's a gym nearby, it's the Harvard Club. I'm like so curious. I also work out at Equinox. I belong like so curious. I also work at Equinox. I belong to Equinox. I go to Equinox, Jim's all over the country. I belong to Performance House here in New York. Mendes Boxing, which is a boxing gym, pure yoga, which is a yoga gym.

You like yoga? I do. I do. You're a yoga person. Well, I'm not an expert, but I like it. See, I can't get into it. I feel like I cannot calm my mind. I know they say it's so great for you and blah, blah, blah, blah, but I like it. So I can't get into it. I feel like I cannot calm my mind. I know they say it's so great for you and blah, blah, blah,

but I cannot get my... I'm trying to hot power yoga then. I've tried it, but I'm looking at the clock the whole time. Really? Because hot power yoga is really intense and really hard. If you're... I mean, a flow class that's not a heated room for someone who wants intensity could be boring. When you do it in a hot room,

it feels very, very intense. Right, it does. And so for me, I agree with you. I thought I never liked yoga because I found it slow and dull and not really exercise. Hot yoga really got me into it more. Also, yoga's really good for recovery. That's good for your mind, it's meditative.

It may not be your daily. You may not find it a daily activity appealing, but I don't go daily or even go weekly, but I do do yoga now and now. I just find when you have such a limited time, you do have to choose. You want to choose what you like. And I'm a hardcore person,

so you can see why I like the more. So you like berries. I like berries. I like berries too, but it's great? I like berries. I like berries too. I like berries too. Yeah, I love that kind of work. And because I also feel like I've done something afterwards. I never like to feel that, oh, God, I spent an hour and a half.

Because those classes are also hours long. I mean, I don't have two hours to get there. And in L.A., a lot of these good classes, you've got to get there early. You've got to do the class for an hour and a half. You've got to leave. It's like a half, you gotta leave, you're all sweat. It's like a day process, so it's very, very difficult. So I'd rather just do what I like and whatever else.

But so do you usually do like a double day, like do two workouts in a day? Like how often would you do that? Well, certainly in a week or a 12 workouts, I've done a bunch of two a days. But sometimes you count, you said, like if you do a four hour bike ride, that's two. So that's rare, though.

I would say I do a two-day, depending on my schedule, three to four days a week. So my average week is probably eight to nine more counts. Well, you know it's really funny. Because I do take a rest day. You do take one, right? I try to, yes. And then you don't do anything on that day.

I really don't do anything. A lot of people say it's a rest day and they're like, oh, a rest day, that means I just left a wait. That is not a rest day. I really don't do anything. Like, a lot of people say it's a rest day in there. Like, oh, a rest day, that means I just left it wait. It's like, no, that is not a rest day. I take a real rest day. Right. You have to recover. Your body needs it.

I know. And actually, a lot of experts will say you really should take two rest days. A lot of people who are in great shape do take two rest days. Absolutely. I agree. Also, it's not good for your adrenals. Like, you're like burning yourself out. Yes. Like, I'm in the best shape when I actually am not like always going so hard, hard, it's not good for your adrenals. Like you're like burning yourself out. Yes.

Like I'm in the best shape when I actually am not like always going so hard, hard, hard, hard, and take some time off. But like it's more for the mental. Yeah, it's psychologically. Psychologically, it's very difficult, right? It's funny because we're actually starting to do this podcast on Woodway treadmill starting next week, which would have been,

you would have been great on it because we're not like obviously running and doing this, but you're just walking slowly, but the idea behind it, of course, is like, I really always promote activity and wherever you can get it, you might as well multitask, would have been great. It's like, involve people, Mr. Fitness over here. I like woodware treadmill. Yeah, they're the best ones. I don't run on anything besides that.

And I'm not just saying that. But they are expensive. They are very expensive. But for someone who runs all the time, and I'm prone to an ankle injury, it's kind of the only thing I... Makes a difference. Makes a major difference for the shock absorption.

The Peloton treadmills are great, too. I haven't tried that. Yeah, they're really great. And they're much less costly. Do you have? I don't. But I've worked out on them. Do you like Peloton, though? Do you have bikes at home? I actually don't have that. Yeah, they're really great. And they're much less costly. Do you have? I don't. But I've worked out on them. Do you like Peloton though?

Do you like bikes at home? I actually don't have a Peloton, but I've tried the Peloton track class. Yeah. And my trainer Andy Speer is a head trainer for their tread offering. So I train one of my trainers. Yeah, doesn't he work at like men's health

or men's fitness? He's also a fitness model. Yeah. Oh, he also a fitness model. Oh, he's a fitness model. That's what it is. Right, right, right, right. Okay, that's why the name sounds familiar. Yeah, he's well known.

Oh yeah, well, I just remember, because yeah, I remember seeing him. Okay, so how about your diet? What do you eat? So, I mean, I have the idealized diet, but what I'll actually eat is mostly healthy diet, but I like sweets. Okay, so. And'll actually eat is mostly healthy diet, but I like sweets. Okay, so.

And I do eat some bread. So, you know, my doctor, Peter Athea, will say, when asked about a diet, if you want a shortcut into the right diet, stay away from all processed foods, certainly stay away from processed carbohydrates, stay away from added sugar, stay away from alcohol, everything else is fair game. Oh, and no fruaches. No fruit.

Hablifruc, do you drink, do you eat fruit? No fruits fine. So my diet is, does include fresh fruit, lots of fresh vegetables, lots of salad, lean protein, sometimes not such lean protein, a limited amount of whole carbs, but it also includes some bread, some pasta, some sweets, no alcohol, no drink. And so I would love to be able to say, I'm into clean eating, although I find the phrase sort of upsetting because it's like, that means if you're eating a regular diet, it's somehow dirty eating. I know, I know. I don't think it's very helpful. It's you're eating a regular diet it's somehow dirty eating.

I know, I know. I don't think it's very helpful. It's just a catch-war, a catchy way of the diet. I would say the diet, you know, written down, I occasionally keep a food diary. One would say, okay, that's a good healthy diet except he has dessert a lot. And my justification is I don't drink alcohol, I don't drink fruit juice, I don't drink soda. Why is so much a problem? I obviously don't smoke,. I'm obviously... Why is it so much of a problem? Obviously, don't smoke.

But my vice is some sweets, and for me to totally cut that out, probably would be good, health-wise, and fitness-wise. It's hard, you'd be lying if you didn't say it would be good, but you have to honor and acknowledge the stuff that you like and like. And also, you're a human being. I mean, you can't... Yeah, how do you want to live? You can't be like that, huh?

How do you, yeah, exactly, you're having a... So for me anyway, I've made that decision, and I don't, but again, I'm not promoting it as like, you should do what I do, because if you want me to tell you what you should do, is you should have my diet excluding for bread, the pasta, and the dessert. Right, but we're not, yeah, you're not,

we're not asking you to say, we're just, why don't you do? But what do I do? I eat a, you would consider a normal diet, but we're not, yeah, you're not, we're not asking you. We're just, why don't you do? But what do I do? I eat a, you would consider a normal diet, but what I don't do is I don't eat fast food. I don't eat a lot of fried food. I eat some, but very, very little. And I don't add lots of sugar, oil,

or butter to things that I eat typically. Who cooks you or your wife? You do? You don't have a chef? No. Really? No. Okay, with all this, like, I don't live that way.

Well, I would think that you live for sure that way, given like your entire like pedigree of like employment here, but that's a whole other thing. No, I cook. I'm the cook. Really? Yeah. Now, is your wife as healthy as you? She's very healthy, but she, she's not focused on health and wellness the way I am.

Right, you're like hardcore. Yeah, she's not even soft-core. Yeah. She finds us annoying. It does, she, okay. I find it, I love, I just not her as fine as. She finds it vaguely annoying. Yeah, it's true, Like more than vaguely annoying.

More than vaguely annoying. Probably more. So are you not doing any of those intermittent fastings, keto's, or no other? I don't believe in keto as a diet. I think if you want to lose weight. Have you tried it? Sure.

But if you want to lose weight, sure, cut out a food group. Doesn't matter which one. I'll put my other one. You'll lose weight. Cut out protein. You'll lose weight. It's not sustainable. Cut out carbs, you'll lose weight. So all the keto diet is, I'm just cutting out most of the carbs in my diet. Are you going to lose weight. Cut out protein. You'll lose weight. Cut out carbs. You'll lose weight.

So all the keto diet is, I'm just cutting out most of the carbs in my diet. Are you going to lose weight? Yes. Is it? Short term. Short term. Is it sustainable? No.

Is it a better way to lose weight, short term than cutting out fat? Yes. Is it more healthy? Well, all the studies about the health of one of these diets, the health of the diet is swamped by the fact that the people who go on these diets lose a bunch of weight. And so if you're overweight, you're not healthy. And when you become the correct weight or underweight, you get a lot more healthy. So even if you're eating too much fat in your diet, you will be healthier as a light person

than as a heavy person. Yes. So, I don't believe in keto diets. I certainly don't believe in the whole 30 at all. I don't even understand it. I don't know why. A lot of these diets, to be honest, I'm confused. It still doesn't make sense.

That makes sense. And then there are certain things you really should do, like how lots of fiber in your diet. It's really, really good for you. And there's evidence that it reduces markers that are bad for your cardiac health like cholesterol. Exactly. But I think also what happens is there's so much, you're overloaded with information.

People are overloaded. And there's more people obese today than they have been ever before. Ever before. Like it's a 45% of people are 40% of Americans. 40% of Americans are more obese and this is with all the different apps and all the different diets and information and membership everything and right now like when I was like when I started

to do this whole fitness thing which was I did it because I naturally loved it but it was like I was like one of the only ones doing it. It wasn't like the popular cool thing. Now it's become like a very trendy thing, like, you know, with sole cycle becoming a major brand and all these other things. And yet, people are not, it's obviously there's a correlation that's not jiving somewhere, you know what I mean? I think it's too much information

and people having a little bit of information is very dangerous. Yeah, and people looking for a quick fix. Well, yeah, or- As opposed to a healthy lifestyle. Or, yeah, but I think they do a little bit of this diet and a little bit of that one. And if you're not following anything

like these trendy fat things, exactly, it's gonna work, it's gonna actually to have the opposite effect. You know? So that's interesting. So then let's go, we'll going to actually have the opposite effect. So that's interesting. So then let's go, we'll come back maybe to that, because I actually know I want more question about that. Because I actually heard that you started your own fitness but training group. Is that true?

Well, I, a bunch of friends and I started a fitness group in the mornings. And it happened almost unintentionally and organically. But yes, today we have a fitness group here in New York called the program. The program. Yeah, that was sort of tongue and cheek and then it stuck. That's funny. So how often do you guys get together and do that?

When I'm in the city, it's four days a week, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, if I'm traveling, it might be fewer days than that. So if you're not there, it doesn't happen. It does happen, but it happens a little less regularly if I'm not there. You like the head coach over there, or the head person? I'm not, actually, I work with two or three other people

in the group to manage it. Wow, so that's also, so you'll train with your trainer, you'll bike, you have this thing called the program. That's right. You hit training on some days. Yep. And when you do hit training, how long do you do it for? 45 minutes to an hour depending on the session.

Closer to 45 minutes. Most of it. Do you have the trainer or yourself? With a trainer or with a friend if I'm not in one of the classes. Oh, so you do the classes? Okay. An Equinox or wherever? Equinox classes, but also the program goes to classes.

So the program goes, so you guys just do it as a group. We do it as a group, but we go to different places. Like an accountability group, come in. Yeah, yeah, it's not. Workout buddies. It's more like a team than it is an accountability thing. Like it's not people who do it feel like it's a lot of them are former varsity athletes and they'll say,

wow, I haven't had an experience like that since I was in college when I was on a team. Like a team, that's a really good idea. I think it's also it's very motivating. It's a really motivating. It's a great atmosphere. It's not competitive. It's very cooperative.

They're varying levels of fitness and varying levels of age and both men and women. It's a lot of fun. It's great. I'm going to do that. That's what you should do. I know. I want to do that next time.

But no, I want to work out one on one. I want to see what you're made of actually. You'll be disappointed. I will stop saying that. There's no way. You're the antithesis of that word. I will say. It's true.

We'll get back to the book in a second. I said to you before we start filming. Another reason why you're so crazy impressive is you have literally like nine million jobs that are like so high level and yet people, one of those things would be like, how would someone define their whole entire like professional career. So how are you able to be like the chairman of CBS and do take to and your private equity thing, just those three alone?

How do you divide the time? Are you really good with time management or? I think I'm pretty good with time management. Remember, my interim chairmanship at CBS is just that it's interim. Right. And I'm chairman of the board. I'm not employee of the company. So I'm not the board. I'm not executive of the company. So I'm not the board.

I'm non-executive. So I don't have operating responsibilities there. Right, so you're not going every day. No, no, of course not. And I don't operate the company. That's what the team does. So what does that mean? So what do you do if you're the interim chairman?

What does that mean? You're responsible for convening the board and running the board meetings and you have a fiduciary responsibility of the shareholders in that role. But you don't have an operating job. So just to be clear. Yeah, no, I understand. They wanted you to take over for less moonbes.

No, no, no. I saw it. I reported in the press, but that's not true. Is that not true? Would you have done it? No, I'm not. But it wasn't. But you did with not offering other jobs. Not offer, but that's not true. Is that not true? Would you have done it? No, but it wasn't. You do it with not offering other jobs. Not offered, not asked, not interested.

You're not interested at all. It doesn't matter because that was never the deal. But when ultimately I was asked if we're going to do it, the answer was no. And obviously now it's been announced that CBS and Viacom emerging that Bob Bakish will be the CEO of the new company. So it's all moved anyway. Well, how Bob Backish will be the CEO of the new company. So it's all, it's all moot anyway. Well, how long will you be doing this interim?

Until the merger. Until the merger. So when the how long will that be? I, the company I'm not sure has said, but relatively soon. Okay, it's still impressive, nevertheless. Thank you for saying that. No, it's due. In terms of the other stuff, look, ZMC is a holding company in a private equity firm

and take to interact as a public company that has an external management agreement with ZMC. It's an unusual structure, but it really means that ZMC and take to go together. They're not at odds with one another. ZMC is in the business of buying and building and then managing companies. Take to is an entertainment company in the video game business. And I've always found that, you know, I'm interested in investing.

I'm also interested in operating and I get to do both. So like, take two, that's Grand Theft Auto. Also Rockstar is under there too, right? Grand Theft Auto is a Rockstar game. Red Dead Renemption is a Rockstar game coming from two K is NBA 2K, Borderlands, which is Borderlands 3 is about to be released, BioShock, Civilization, WWE 2K, and many other hit titles.

And then we have two other divisions, private division and social point. And it was a map, well, Grand Theft Auto is a massive, it's still enormous. It's still enormous, it's still enormous. Yeah. This episode is brought to you by Vonage. Is your business ready to integrate live video chats into your app? Yeah. meetings and classes. Live video enhances every conversation. Go live on your terms with Vonage. Learn more at Vonage.com. This episode is brought to you by FX's The Bear. The hit series returns with Jeremy Allen White in the Golden Globe winning role of Karmie.

He and the team will transform their family sandwich shop into a next-level spot, all while being forced to come together in new ways as they confront their past and reckon with who they want to be in the future. FX is the bear. All episodes now streaming, only on Hulu. But I guess, forgive me, because I'm not like, I don't play video games, and my kids are probably not old enough. But I know what's going on a little bit with the Fortnite and all this.

So how does that business, the Fortnite and legal legends and all those, does that interfere with the Grand Theft Auto? It's a very different one's individual one's group, right? I don't believe so. I don't think that that entertain one particular form of entertainment specifically cannibalizes another. There's plenty of room for hits to coexist. And I know a number of people in our business thought that Fortnite directly affected their releases,

but we didn't have that experience. At the same time, the Fortnite was a big hit. Grand Theft Auto Online was setting records. At the same time, the Fortnite was a hit. We launched Red Debt Redemption 2 and it sold 25 million units. It did. Yeah, so we've been doing great despite the success of our competitors. And what I think happens when our competitors have big successes, it just creates more energy

around the business. A more consumers come into the market and that's benefits all of us who have hits. That's true. I don't see it as a problem at all. And even if we're a problem, what do we do about it? We just have to do the best we can to put out more hits. That's true. Good answer. So how did you become like obviously I said you were 62 but you were the CEO of BMG and the CEO and president of Fox. You must have been like 11 years old at that time. You know when I became president of 20th century Fox I was 32. How did you even get that job? That's so young.

Well, I'd been president of the largest independent, a company called Vestron, and I made a big hit. I green lit a big hit. Which one? Oh, I saw. That's the first picture I ever green lit. So I saw that you were involved with dirty dancing. You green lit that.

Okay, so that puts you on a whole new level. I got, and we had a good run at Vestron, and I wanted to move from Vastron to a major studio and I was given the opportunity when Joe Roth became chairman of Fox and we had had a previous relationship because he'd produced pictures for Vastron so we knew one another. Okay. And then Joe and Barry Dillard and Rupert Murrard hired me to be president of the studio. That's young. It was yeah it was young trust me I knew I knew I was. Were you the youngest ever were you the youngest of that being a studio. You know it's pretty young business me. I knew I knew I was Well, you're the youngest ever were you the youngest of that being a student?

It's pretty young business, so I'm sure I wasn't Wow, how long were you the CEO there? COO No, not the CEO I was there for four years and then but then you went to be then you had BMG also in Europe like a little baby I was young. I was 36 when I went to BMG So like you keep on getting these like top tier jobs at it Like such as young age. What do you think that? What was the reason like? What isn't about you?

I mean obviously we know that you're obviously motivated and disciplined, but what do you think with the qualities that kind of Led you there, right? Like well, I was fortunate. I had a number of opportunities early that each one led to another one. I think there's always that intersection of serendipity and capability and hard work. And at Fox, Joe Roth was looking for someone who he could trust who would run the business side of the operation, and we had known one another, and I was a good fit. So you're just like a really small, really good with numbers and information. Obviously, went to Harvard, you have like,

I saw, you know, dummy, obviously, but I mean, no, not definitely not. But like, is it just like your brain works at a faster pace than the majority of people? Or like, were you always just an overachiever at a young age? Like, no, I mean, I thought I was. I had a very high opinion of my achievements, the majority of people or like were you always just an overachiever at a young age like? No, I mean I thought I was. I had a very high opinion of my achievements but I actually wasn't true. The first time I really did well at anything,

objectively was when I was at West Lane which is where I went to college and I did do very well there. I was really good. Yeah, that was the first time I life when I actually exiled it something. But previously I know I hadn't been an overachiever But I'd always been highly motivated. I was always interested in the entertainment business and in terms of my skills It's were you an athlete in like high school. No, I was a student. You were very much more than yeah, I wasn't always creative. I was a singer songwriter and I was a writer and I wanted to be a performer so I was like many people working creative and it's initially thought I'd be on the other side, but I wasn't talented. That was a problem.

I was motivated, but not talented. So why do I think I've had some measures success in the business? I hope that I have the ability to crystallize a strategy and organize a team to pursue it collectively in service of greater goals. And those skills, I think, if I, you know, to drill down, I'd say however you define them, I've some leadership skills,

I hope I have good communication skills. And I do seem to have the ability to synthesize a lot of information pretty quickly and arrive at the right conclusion. It's even bad then. So you kind of work always on that trajectory. Like when you, even though you were on the creative side, you're obviously very academic. And then, but you keep on getting like even, it goes, you know, like I said, I think I'm just like dumbfounded because every mass, every massive media company, you seem to have ran at some point. And I'm quite.

But it isn't about being fast-forward numbers, although obviously I have to know my way around numbers. And I certainly don't think I'm a genius or anything of the sort. And after all, this is not rocket science. This is entertainment. It isn't. But the operation of it is- The operations are complex. It's making it complicated the operation of it is. The operations are complex.

It's speaking to be complicated. Yeah, and you have to get things right. I also respect creativity enormously. And if I have a talent, and I'm not sure it's much of a talent, it is identifying talent and other people and bringing out the best in those people, encouraging them to work within our system, insisting that they pursue their passions, celebrating their success, getting out of the way of their work, and then supporting them in whatever way I can. And then we run a very rational, tight, non-chaotic business operation.

So we have a very ambitious creative organization, led our creative teams and a very gentle, rational, focused business operation. And those two things go together well and lead to great results. More with our guests, but first a word from our sponsor. Is there something that's standing in the way of your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals? If so, better help online counseling can be a great option for you. It's super convenient and you get the help you need on your own time at your own pace. They have licensed professional counselors that are specializing everything from dealing with depression, anxiety, relationships, and so much more.

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And now they're offering 20% off your first purchase by visiting nativedeodorant.com and using the code habits that go to native deodorant.com and use the promo code habits for 20 percent off your first purchase. So what do you think makes a really good leader then? I know you said you have great communication skills and you know. Oh God, I hope I didn't put it that way. No, you didn't say it like that. Don't you?

I would say listening is part of being a great leader, listening with empathy. But certainly having, you have to have a point of view about strategy. You have to understand what success should look like. And then you have to have the ability to gather together an A plus team to build the tactics that support that strategy and then to create incentives so that we all move in the same direction to execute the tactics that support that strategy and then to create incentives so that we all move

in the same direction to execute the tactics and service of the strategy and to reach our common goals. And that's probably what most people define as leadership. But leadership is not showing up in a meeting and being charming or charismatic. Leadership is all those building blocks of working with everyone, so okay, well, what is it that we're trying to achieve? What is our strategy to get there? What are the appropriate tactics? Who's going to do that? How do we assemble those teams? How do we pay for it?

And now, what do we do tomorrow? Chief, did you have a mentor? Do you have a mentor? I have mentors now. I didn't have mentors when I was younger. I think I was probably too insecure to reach out to people. Really? Yeah, I don't think I had the confidence to go to people who were more successful and say, I need help. I think I felt like I had to do it all on my own. Now, at this age and stage, and for some time, I have no trouble relying on people who

are smarter and more experienced than I. Really? And I do have people I really count on. Who are your mentors? Well, the journal just actually ran a piece on this. Really? Yeah, and they do it in an article on it, but included among the people I really turned to

are Barry Diller, who was my boss at Fox and who's obviously the very famous entrepreneur in the media business. Really, I don't know who we ever heard his name. Don Gogel, who is the CEO, Clayton DuBalier, and Rice, a big private equity firm, a known forever wonderful, kind, smart gentleman who's in this space. Michael Dorneman, who's on the board here, who is my boss at BMG. He was the CEO of Burdelsman Entertainment, which was RTL and BMG. So he wasn't the

overall CEO of Burdelsman. Who was the overall CEO? Thomas Mittlehoff was for a few years towards the end. So he was at Burdelsman too. Where to now? Yeah, Michael Jordan. Well, he's on the board of take two, among other things. But yeah, but you're on the board of CVS amongst other things. So what does he do also? He's. He's. He's even 11 jobs too. No, he doesn't have 11 jobs.

He has his own consulting business in the media space. And then Dick Parsons, who was the CEO of Time Warner. Right. I see. And he's an old friend and primary matter. So you basically don't hang around any losers, really? What I mean? What I mean?

I wouldn't define anyone that way, but I'm fortunate. I'm around with really great people at every stage of life. I mean, a lot of my friends are really young. Like, I don't just hang around with like old, old, other old people. And I certainly don't define my friends

based on their professional achievements. So I have friends of all ages, all walks of life. So do you mentor anybody? I do, it's a big part of what I do. Really, okay, how many people do you mentor? More than you want to know. No, I want to know. I want to be one of the activists.

There's like a couple hundred people. It's a lot of people. How do you, how do you do that? I have to find the time for it. It's one of the most important things I do. Do you actually like, like, one on one with 200 more than 200 people? Certainly not every week, right?

People come and go. But in terms of the people who I would say over the course of one and a half year period, I would engage with, it's probably around 200 and not an ongoing basis. Oh my God. And some of them pretty regularly. Some of them not so regularly.

Do they, I, they people who've all reached out to you or did you, like, how? Yeah, they've all, I mean, I certainly don't reach out to them. Well, no, I people who've all reached out to you or did you, like how? Yeah, they've all, I mean, I certainly don't reach out to them. Well, I don't, I don't mentor you. But what I'm saying is, no, no, what I mean is like, maybe you like, it was like, friend of a friend or whatever. It can be, can be anything.

So, so like, I want you to mentor me. There we go. So maybe not, maybe not on camera. Maybe not on camera, that's fine. But like, 201, then you'll have. There we go. Oh my gosh, I cannot believe you have time to do all that. That does take time. I often, I mean, first of all, I bring a lot of people who are your

coach and try to help to the gym with me. That's right. You're a lot of meetings in the gym. Part of it, but I do a lot of the phone, do a lot of the phone, sometimes on the weekends. And also, there are people who don't want to go to the gym. I don't drag people to the gym with no interest. So could be a meeting in the office. So then, when were you on the cover of the men's business? Men's business, yes. About six years ago. Oh, that was six years ago.

Did you get ready for that cover? Because you were pretty ripped, though. And I think I'm in better shape. I'm certain I'm in better shape now, because my goal to be in better shape every year than the prior year. I'm sure I did some prepping for the cover, but I don't do anything insane. If I'm going to do it, like there's a picture of me shirtless and becoming ageless. Yeah.

And did I do some prepping for that chore? You know, but it's not Photoshopped, it's lit. It's lit, right? It's all about the lighting and the goal. It is lit for sure, and exactly the lighting and the angles. But I don't do a kind of crazy prep, you know, the prep where... Yeah. Yeah, because I know what that prep is like, and I prep people, believe it not, for shoots

and for the movies, friends. Really? It's like how to do it, but I didn't do that. Okay, how do you know? How do you know? Tell me how you'd prep somebody. What would be the prep? The prep starts around, I mean, you can't take someone's terribly, terribly, out of shape

and make them look good, but about two weeks before you would start, and it's all diet, and you have them drink over a gallon of water a day starting about two weeks before, and obviously you cut calories, and you cut a lot of carbs out. And then by 10 days before, you're super carb light. You're eating, you know, almost skinless steam, chicken and broccoli and limited amount of anything that has sugar in it. And you're very calorie light, very water heavy. Then about three days before you taper down the water

to about half, two days before, even you taper down down even more, and then a day before you eat a bunch of carbs, and the morning of, you know, you have a donut, and some water, and you'll look great. You should be like a bikini pro coach. Yeah, so by the way, none of that, none of that's particularly healthy.

No, it's terrible, and also, you do. And I don't recommend it. Yeah. I don't recommend it, A. And B, it strikes me as silly, and I didn't do anything like that for the book. All I did for the book was, you know, I probably tightened up my diet, cut down some sweets and the like,

for a week knowing the 10 days, and I probably did have a little water and then cut some water. I definitely did that, because that's relatively easy. Do you take any supplements? No, I mean, I take some medication that my doctor recommends. I don't take supplements. I don't really believe in them.

Protein, if you need protein in your diet, you certainly could have 100% way protein, no added sugar. There's no reason to have added stuff in it. I don't drink caffeine anymore, but caffeine can enhance your workouts. I'm not even gonna express so you said you have. I drink decaf espresso. I don't have any complaints with caffeine, but I have high blood pressure just systemically. So if you have high blood pressure, you really shouldn't have caffeine because it just makes it worse. But I have no coral with caffeine and caffeine is a good pre-workout. Yeah, I know. That's what I did.

And all the pre-workouts, no problem as long as you don't have high blood pressure, protein is fine. Other than that, the science says that most of what you're going to find in supplements is not going to do anything for you. Yeah, no, I... And certainly I don't believe in anything off-market illegal and not scientifically tested. And I do not believe in, you know, steroids stacks and the like, if you're in the bodybuilding community, you're in that world, that's just a fact. It is not healthy. No, I agree with you. It's just not healthy. Do you? You're taking a terrible risk. I agree. And I think that, but you know what, I think that people,

at that information of course, is out there and then people forcing that to shortcut and it's not it's a shortcut to to nothing because it will backfire. You know, just like a lot of these bad diets. Vitamin water just dropped a new zero sugar flavor called with love. Get the taste of raspberry and dark chocolate for the all warm all fuzzy all self-care zero self doubt you grab a with love today vitamin water zero sugar nourish

every you vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass oh you have a night routine to go to bed exceptionally early what do you do I like I think you should try to get seven or eight hours of sleep. Because of my schedule, I don't typically get that much sleep I get between six and seven. That's not quite enough for me. I'll take a nap on the weekends, try to get a little bit more. I don't believe in short sleeping

unless you're truly a short sleeper, only about one percent of the population really are short sleepers. Yeah, no, I know. But you should be trying to get eight hours of sleep the night. Well, sleep is one of the pillars of wellness and health. Unquestionably.

You know, I'm also a big believer in sleep hygiene. So sleep, what? Hygiene. So darkened room. Oh, okay. The right temperature. A comfortable bed. I can sleep with a clean person.

No, no, having like one of the things of people, I never did this before. I kept the blinds up because it was obviously dark, went to bed, and I get up early in the morning, but I live in New York City. There are lots of, there's lots of ambient light. So now my wife and I keep the blinds down, the room is quite dark.

You'll sleep better in a darkened room. Yeah, and a cool room too. And I don't keep my phone near my bed, and I try not to be on a screen before I go to bed. Really, for how long before you go to bed? I don't really have it. I don't have a time constraint, but you know, it must be a feel like an hour before you go to bed. But basically, I'm trying not to be highly stimulated by work or even by entertainment before I want to go to sleep.

Do you have any habits that are very specific to you that you do every day? Besides the exercising? Well, I do every day, besides the exercising. Well, I mentioned that I pray in the morning. And the praying, right? We've got that. Is there any other habits? Not really. I would say exercise for sure, daily prayer.

Do you watch TV? No. No. There's not one show that you like. I know there are shows I like because my wife likes to watch television and she'll point to stuff and I am chairman of a television network, so I watch those. But you really don't do anything with that.

Basically, we just like, I don't exist. I don't regularly watch a lot of television, not because I have anything against it. I'm in the television business at the EMC as well. But it's a matter of your time. And it is not realistic to exercise a lot, have a wife, have kids, have a bunch of jobs, mentor

people, read, and also to watch lots of entertainment. That was my next question. I said, you ever read? Like just for fun. I do read, I mean, obviously read news during the day and then I try to be reading a book at any given time, although I don't have a book right now. I was going to say, what's the book there? I have a book that I'm about to read, but I haven't started it yet.

What's book? It's the Richard Holdbrook biography that a book that I'm about to read, but I haven't started it yet. What's book? It's the Richard Holdbrook biography that everyone says is great by George Packer, but I haven't started it yet, so I can't recommend it. But what was the last book you read? The last book I read, I've forgotten actually the one I just finished before this. The last book I read that I thought was really great was American Kingpin about the founder of the Silk Road. It's a great read. It's very cinematic. It's like watching intelligence show.

Oh, yes. It's a thing. It's a thing. That's good. Do you prefer, if you watch a comedy person, you would drama person, are you like an action person for like by watching a movie? Yes. Any of them. Yeah.

So like dumb comedies. So who's your favorite? Like, since you're in the entertainment space? Who's like, who's like, uh, who's your favorite actor? So given that I am sort of in this business with a lot of talented people. You could say one of your, okay, who's one of your favorite? I think I'm probably not going to go there, but- You won't say one of your favorite? No, I think I'm going to leave that one alone.

I thought that's very like, that's a very little- There's so many that are my favorites. They're all my favorites. They're all your favorite. As a kid, you know, which one is your favorite all my favorites? That's people ask me my favorite video game Is it's like I don't think I'm gonna do play video games? I do not do your kids play video games They're not avid gamers, but they play how well do your kids 26 24 21. Oh, wow So they're in college and pass college exactly are they in the entertainment world to my middle kid

It works a vibe comp. He's in the entertainment world too? My middle kid works at Viacom. He's in the entertainment world. Oh, in which area? Corporate development. Oh, okay. And the other two? Nope. They're not doing anything entertainment-wise.

Correct. But they finished school? My daughter's still in school. Did they go to Harvard too? No, no Harvard. No Harvard kids, okay. Please not yet. Not yet, right?

Maybe soon. You never know. I have all these big jobs. Which one was like, which genre do you love the best? Do you like music? Do you like the TV movies, video games? I mean, they've all been great along the way. I really do love the video game business, but I'm probably saying that because it's what

I'm active in now. Yeah, I do it now. I loved the music business because I had been a musician. Right, you said that. And I'm music really resonates with me. And it was a really fun business because I had been a musician. Right, you said that. And I'm music really resonates with me. And it was a really fun business when I was in it. Movies were really challenging. I love motion pictures.

Being in the movie business is really hard. It's a tough asset class. And I used to say, my boss got to say yes, 25 times a year. I got to say no 10,000 times a year. Yeah, oh, I got that. That's a good one. That's so true, right? So that was a movie business.

And then eventually I get to be the guy who could say yes 25 times a year. But that was hard. You know, you were as head of a studio, you're delivering nose to people who've served dreams. That's a whole life, right? Much less so in the recorded music business, where you put out a lot of product. And much less so in the video game business because the creativity in the video game business

exists in-house. So the movie business you're taking outside pitches all day long, most of which will never get made. Even the ones you say yes to and then putting it up will never get made. And then it just goes sit on the shelf for. So that's not true in the video game business. Our pitches are internal and the vast preponderance of our internal discussions will go to prototype them.

If we have a team at one of our labels, and they're really excited about doing something, then we have the resources to back them to do that. But they're not, we're not, and this office is not, you know, I don't long line of people coming in to have a great idea for video game game because it's not how video games are made. So I have to admit I like that we don't have that activity here as part of my daily brief. I also love the fact that of all the businesses I've been in, video games are the most rapidly growing. So if all these industry tailwinds, and anytime you have tailwinds, it means you can afford to take bigger risks. And when you take those risks, more often than not, things that work out, you know, least so-so.

Right. Because the business is growing behind and around you. Isn't there more money in the video game world now than because than the movie business? Yeah. It's a huge business. I mean, because you're selling, if you're selling 25 units of something.

Million. So I've been selling 25 million units. And then like with movies, obviously, like it's all, I feel like now at the movie business it's all like Marvel it's all the same movies that they've done like six or seven ten times you know I think that's an overstatement we some of the big hits are obviously things that we've heard about we make sequels and

video games as well and also in the movie business you know people trying new things every year a lot of that you'll find that festivals right the festival so I don't think the movie businesses anymore or less sort of commercially oriented than it has been for a very long time. But of course the biggest hits are what you would expect. They're either new intellectual properties that you've never seen before, but that are just awesome and blow you away. Or they're sequels to beloved franchises. And that's true of many businesses. It's true of the video game business too. Out of the 25 that you said that you Greenlit, name me five other ones that I would know. Well, when I was a fox, our team made the abyss sleeping with the enemy, home alone,

die hard too. Many, many, many. Which ones did you say no to? That became like massive hit. Oh, there. So not many. Okay. But when I was a bestron, so not Fox. Okay. We had a picture and development that was, it was the title of the script was 3000. And it was a very misogynistic picture about a, about a prostitute and a rich guy and Los Angeles, and it ends, the ending of the picture actually was, the guy opening up the door of his limo and pushing her out into a gutter. And we were like,

for your woman was like that? No. So you figured it out. So I finished reading the script and I said, over my dead body will this picture ever get made here at Vestron and we passed on it. And they took the picture to Disney and Jeff Katzenberg and his team reconceived of that as a comedy called Pretty Woman

and had it rewritten as a comedy and sort of Pignalean comedy and obviously it was a massive hit. So to say that I didn't have any vision for it as an understatement, that's the one that got away but it didn't really get away because it was a dark melodrama. Well, I mean they changed it because they had the talent figure, how to didn't really get away because it was a dark, they changed it. A dark melodrama. Well, I mean, they changed it because I had the talent to figure out how to change it, but I did not. So that's one that I really, I really, really missed. That's a big one too.

And the worst part is I literally did say over my dead body, well, this get made here. And it's like, and then that's like, yeah, mass of it. What are my favorites? Is there anything else that's the only movie that's ever, that's ever happened? The movie business doesn't tend to, you know, it isn't typical that you will take a pitch and turn it down and in that form it will be made elsewhere and turn it to a hit because remember what typically happens is all pitches die. You know, you're thousands of pitches

turn into development projects none of which ever gets made. So it's very rare that you would be an executive at one studio and you would have something pitched, you would turn it down, it would go elsewhere, it would be developed, it would be made and it would turn into a hit. I mean, there's so the odds of that happening are very, very slim. So there's something like at a BMG entertainment when you're in the music world. Like, I think a lot of people don't really understand how, like, you have labels within labels and deals. Like, jive was under BMG, RCA was under BMG. I know you've got to get out of here.

Yeah, it's okay, I just want to check. Okay, how much time do we have before I got to like, let Strauss out of here? About 10 minutes. Oh, okay, okay. Okay, so basically, so how you have like labels and subsidiaries, how does it work though? though, at your level, what are you doing? It's such a great question.

I'm fond of saying I'm not sure much work goes on in the corner office, but I look, I think what I'm doing is what I described earlier, which is hopefully helping everyone agree on a common mission, vision, goal set, strategy, culture, set of tactics, incentives, and outcomes. Are you okay in the deal? And then, you know, then we have daily execution and I'll weigh in on stuff that is important for me to weigh in on.

But like, first, you know, because, you know, for jive, let's just say jive, because remember Britney Spears was on jive? I do. And, and sinker, or RCA. Okay, so what was the deal? RCA and jive because remember Britney Spears was on jive and and sink or what or RCA? Okay, so what was the D and jive or differently? I know I'm saying RCA. I don't remember who was on who I went to ultimately went to jive. Yeah, right. So let's just say jive. Started at RCA Germany. Right. So they had okay. So is BMG I'm sorry. You had the deal with jive which had Britney Spears and and sink. So did you do that deal? Would it be like you did the deal with Jai, which had Britney Spears and NSYNC. So did you do that deal?

Would it be like you did the deal with BMG to have that relationship? Or? The Jai relationship already existed when I got to BMG, but I renewed that relationship, I think twice while I was there. And so are you, so are they working as a separate entity?

They were definitely a separate entity. So you're not signing any talent to anybody's big question. You're not signing talent. You're not personally? No, not, yeah, but like at your level, you know, you're only overseeing everything. I would have a relationship with certain people who were, who were talented people who worked with us.

But no, I didn't typically bring talent into the company. Maybe okay, very, very occasionally. I'm just curious, because you said you had that, like you were a musician. and I had a really good... Yeah, but I wasn't in A&R. The A&R group reported to me. I know, but because you had like a powerful position, I would think that maybe you can like, you know, weed away. This is why it's good that I don't play video games.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, not my job. Yeah. There was a job of the label heads and the A&R teams, and I think, you know, I was not a seasoned capable A&R executive everyone's got a point of view. What was that line? Everyone has two businesses, their own business and show business.

So naturally I could have decided I would be a great A&R executive, but I don't think that's the job of the head of the label group. As I define the job for me, now someone like Doug Morris, who was a record man or a Clive Davis, a record man, a Doug ran a big group, he ran the overall label, but he was a background in recorded music and I could imagine that he would weigh in on acts and actually decide, yeah, your name, but I rarely would be involved in decisions like that. It's not what I did. And it's not what I do here. It's not what I did at Fox. As I

said, what I do, if I have a facility for anything, it's not what I do here, it's not what I did at Fox. As I said, what I do, if I have a facility for anything, it's finding the talented people who do that really well. It's one of the reasons I don't take credit for any of the hits I've been involved with. Because I didn't make them, I didn't choose them. I really, I don't deserve any credit for them, genuinely. If I deserve credit, it's that I had the presence of mine, structure the company appropriately, and bring on board the most talented people in the world. And then I help them express that talent.

Maybe I deserve some credit for that, but the hits don't belong to me. And knowing that about myself is powerful. And what happens often is people get in positions of power where they could decide to do whatever they want. And suddenly they'd say, well, be really cool. I should go, I should go sign something. Because then they'll thank me at the Grammy Awards. It's like, no, no, no, I don't do that.

It's not what I do. It's ego, that's more, yeah. So I try to keep the ego out of as much as possible. And the more I'm willing to sit in the back seat and not get the press and not get the accolades, the more successful we as an organization will be and I'm good with that. I don't, you know, at the end of the day, the CEO gets altogether too much credit as it is.

I certainly shouldn't get what I get, never mind more. Well, okay. What do you think of social media and entertainment? Like, what do you think of that whole? Look, I mean, we in the entertainment business rely on social media for marketing and for engagement and excitement. The part of social media, I would say, like least, is the haters.

The fact that it's like an otherwise polite person gets behind the wheel of a car with all the windows rolled up. And next thing, they're screaming and flipping people off. And I sort of feel like social media is like the car with the windows rolled up. Yeah, it's so uncertain. And suddenly people feel empowered to do and say things that they would never do, interpersonally. And I don't know that we're benefited from, you know, the ability in, you know,

in 146 characters to insult someone with no information. And I don't think that has served us politically. I don't think it served us us politically. I don't think it served us from a marketing point of view. But it's hard to complain when we rely on social media for our marketing. So I'm not complaining. We're part of this world and we benefit from it. But I would observe that the voices of the haters can be amplified. And that's before you even get to manipulations, foreign governments using our social media

or bad actors using social media to target people they're competitive with or don't like. And- But it impacts I feel like the, you're in the space of entertainment because now I feel people are getting television deals or movie deals not based on their numbers on social media. It's becoming the new medium to make a celebrity

or a famous person, right? Versus like the old school way, right? So it's all based on this other, that's what I was kind of curious what you thought of that. Like do you find that's gonna be happening more? Or it's like, No, I think it'll be a backlash. You know, it'll be a backlash.

Why do you say so? I just sort of feel like, you know, Andy Warhol's tongue-in-cheek comment that, you know, in the future, everyone will be famous for 15 minutes as come, and it will go. I think eventually we're gonna go back to a world where celebrity is not enough,

notoriety is not enough talent is required. Right, but talent also, like, look at all the shows like American Idol, the voice, all the, I'm watching your clock, don't worry, I got like six minutes. They're trying to create stars off of these platforms or these like, are these talent shows, right? And then you have all these millions of people who are watching. And then the idea was like, you have those eyeballs on you and they're going to go on.

But I haven't seen really anybody so far become like a breakout hit except for the first season of American Idol with like Kelly Clarkson. There have been, I mean, I don't have the names to my tongue. They're having some pretty big stars. But, you know, besides like Kelly Clarkson. I don't even know, but there have been. A few other. For years have been built. A few from American Idol, the first couple of years. I sort of feel like. A blonde girl too. too. The, as I said, I think notoriety shouldn't just be enough, have a little talent. I agree, but that's more, that's a very,

I agree with you on a much more of a, on like a deeper level, but unfortunately the world that we live in, I feel like people are getting opportunities based on social media. Yeah, I'm hoping that'll change. I'm so, I'm hoping that changes. You think it's going to have that backlash.

I do. When my experience in life and certainly in entertainment is everything that becomes conventional wisdom always changes. Exactly when you think that's the way it's going to be, that's when it changes. When do you think it's going to happen? Oh, well, if I knew that.

And then, when we're thinking. When we're less expected. Yeah, right. When you're less expected. What more thing? And then, Lisa, expect it. Yeah, right, when you're Lisa, okay. What one more thing, and then I'll let you out of here to go work out with Andy or. That's right, Andy's nice. Andy, what's your next step by being take two?

Do you have anything like, are you gonna write a new book? Are you gonna be free? We don't have another book planned right now. I think right now, having been really busy for the past year and a half between the book and- Or 62 years. A bunch of other jobs. I think it's a good time to focus on what's on my plate now

and build ZMC, build take two. And I'll stay open minded. But I'm reasonably busy right now. Keep it this way. So as of now, you're just going to be content doing what you're doing. I think that's right. Well, I think that's good. I don't think we can keep you any longer. I think Andy's waiting. So thank you so much for doing this podcast.

But thank you for having me. No, you're right. You're an excellent guest. And how do people find you on social media? If they want to know more about you. Yeah. Well, the program is on Instagram. It's the program underscore NYC. Oh, right. And I'm on Instagram just under Strauss Selnik and I'm on Twitter also under Strauss Selnik. Are you one of the people that has the car rolled the windows rolled up in the car on Twitter? No I'm pulling. I'm trying to be polite at all time. You seem very you very humble and very polite. You're you mean a great impression. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks, thanks for having me. Bye. This episode is brought to you by the YAP Media Podcast Network. I'm Holla Taha, CEO of the award-winning digital media empire YAP Media, and host of

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