Habits and Hustle - Episode 387: Emmanuel Acho and Noa Tishby: Tackling Antisemitism Through Uncomfortable Conversations

Episode Date: October 8, 2024

What happens when a Black NFL analyst and an Israeli activist sit down to have uncomfortable conversations about Judaism and antisemitism? Check out this episode of Habits and Hustle to find out. I am joined by Emmanuel Acho and Noah Tishby to discuss their New York Times bestselling book "Uncomfortable Conversations with a Jew."  We delve into challenging topics like the perception of Jewish people in America, the rise of antisemitism, and the complexities of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. We also discuss that having open, honest dialogue - even when uncomfortable - is crucial for building understanding between different communities.  Emmanuel Acho is the #1 New York Times bestselling author of Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Boy and the New York Times bestseller Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man. He is the host/producer of the Emmy Award–winning YouTube series of the same name, and whose mission is to promote dialogue around racial insensitivity and ignorance.  Noa Tishby is the New York Times bestselling author of Israel: A Simple Guide to the Most Misunderstood Country on Earth and Israel’s former Special Envoy for Combatting Antisemitism and Delegitimization. An award-winning producer, Tishby made history with the sale of In Treatment to HBO, the first Israeli television show to become an American series. Tishby is the founder of several nonprofit organizations, including Act for Israel and Eighteen, which combats antisemitism and inspires Jewish pride. What We Discuss: (00:00) Uncomfortable Conversations With a Jew (06:02) Challenging the Negative Association of "Jew" (18:48) Misunderstanding Jewish Identity and Beliefs (26:39) Addressing Jewish Stereotypes and Misconceptions (38:21) Navigating Disagreements With Understanding (43:27) Promoting Unity Through Uncomfortable Conversations …and more! Thank you to our sponsors:  Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers.  Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. BiOptimizers: Want to try Magnesium Breakthrough? Go to https://bioptimizers.com/jennifercohenand use promo code JC10 at checkout to save 10% off your purchase. Timeline Nutrition: Get 10% off your first order at timeline.com/cohen Find more from Jen:  Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen   Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Emmanuel Acho and Noa Tishby: Website: https://uncomfortableconvos.com/  Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/emmanuelacho  https://www.instagram.com/noatishby/ 

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Lock in this special offer by going to www.airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE. That's airdoctorpro.com promo code HUSTLE. We do have today on the podcast, Emmanuel Atcho and Noah Tishby, who I know and I've spoken to many a times. We've actually done a podcast before, an IG live before, but now she is on with her partner in crime or co-author. They wrote a book a while ago. How long ago did you write the book?

It came out in April. In April. Right. End of April. And it's called Uncomfortable Conversations with a Jew. And first of all, I think that's a great title. And what I- We only had one or two thousand conversations about that.

Oh, did you? Yes, it was not supposed to be called Uncomfortable Conversations with a Jew. What was it supposed to be called? Uncomfortable Conversations with a Jewish Person. Really? Or, that's not true. That wasn't even an option.

What was the second one? Uncomfortable Conversations with a Jewish Woman. Yes? Or, that's not true, that wasn't even an option. Uncomfortable Conversations with a Jewish Woman. Yes, that was the first title option. So to play off Emmanuel's first bestselling book, Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man, he wanted to write a book for the Jewish community because he felt the rise in antisemitism in the Jewish community.

And the first thing that he thought about was, well, uncomfortable conversations with a Jewish woman. And then when we started working on the book together and towards the end, it became very clear that we shouldn't call it uncomfortable conversations with a Jewish woman because if my, you know, grandfather would have wanted to buy it, then he wouldn't, right?

A man wouldn't reach out. That's true. That's 100% true. And so then I said, oh yeah, let's call it uncomfortable conversations with a Jewish person to keep it gender neutral. Because in this day and age of like sexism and misogyny, I don't want men to not buy a book because it's a woman. Right. So I say Jewish person.

And I said, heck no. We're not being person, you know, we're not, I'm not for, I'm not big on politically correct or being like proper. I'm Israeli. You're Israeli. Exactly. Of course not. I'm like, just tell the truth, say it as it is. And I was like, I said, I was like, oh, I know what the name is and I know what the reaction is going to be.

And I was like, dude, uncomfortable conversations with a Jew. And he was like, I love it. I love it too, cause also I don't mince words. I'm very similar to you and your personality. But like, why is there even a negative connotation with the word Jew? There is, there's such a negative connotation. But why?

You're the expert in the Jewish people. Because the word Jew or to Jew somebody down or to Jew somebody up or to whatever became a slur throughout the years. You have to understand, anti-Semitism is the oldest form of hate and discrimination that is still being practiced today. So we have thousands of years of tropes and slurs and persecutions and stereotypes to work with. So when you say a Jew to somebody, usually the reaction is negative.

And I was like, why are we having a negative reaction to the word Jew? I want to reclaim that word. I am a Jew. Yeah, it's true. I love that like the title itself lets you know the book is going to be uncomfortable. Because for me as a non-Jewish person, the word Jew makes me uncomfortable because before getting into it being like an ethno religion, is Jew an adjective or is it a noun? Yeah, that's true. Because I don't say like those blacks,

it makes me uncomfortable. I don't say those whites makes me uncomfortable. You wouldn't say those talls or those short, subscribing tall or short people. But when you realize, well, Jew can both be adjective and noun, then it makes it a little more comfortable and reclaiming the power of like saying somebody is a Jew

isn't a negative thing depending upon the connotation. It's also if I'm a Jew and saying it, like all the Jews are going, right? Like as a Jewish person saying it, it doesn't feel like you can do it. But if someone else who's not a Jew doing it, it does have that like, that kind of feels weird. And that's what any other-

It depends on where a person is standing. If you know that that person has some sort of a criticism or underlying racism. Negative connotation. Negative connotation would be like. It's exactly true. But if not, then, you know, hey, Jew, being Jew, being a Jew is amazing. Yeah. I am one.

It's great. You should try it. You should try it. But what's interesting is I heard that you asked Noah, Emmanuel, to do this book like two years ago. Yeah. Not even, I think, well, initially I was under the assumption it was right when October 7th

happened. And then when I like did my research and heard you guys, like, it was like, no, like years ago. Yes. Because that's what it says to me. Like, I guess I, I became much more cognizant of antisemitism since October 7th, because I wasn't so hardcore in the Jewish world

like you are, Noah. And so, was it really kind of getting bad years ago? Before, I didn't even realize it. How did you realize it? Well, in the sports world and in the entertainment world, for those that are unfamiliar, I hosted a daily sports show, played in the NFL for four years. So my real bread and butter is sports.

And there were a lot of famous notable sports and entertainers that were ushering in anti-Semitic comments, tropes, et cetera. Kyrie Irving, the superstar basketball player at the time for the Brooklyn Nets, you know, he made comments saying, I can't be anti-Semitic because I am like the real or I know where I come from, or I'm the original Jew saying that he was the original Jew. Again, I'm paraphrasing, so I don't want to incorrectly say his words, but y'all can look them up. Obviously, Kanye West said Hitler had some good ideas. There was Dave Chappelle who went on SNL and did some things.

So I, in that world of entertainment and sports, saw that these entertainers and these sports figures were saying some anti-Semitic things. And I saw the community, the Jewish community, being hurt by that, reached out to Noah and said, hey, let's write a book. For those unfamiliar, you can't write a book in six months. Trust me, I know. People don't realize it's like a two-year situation. It's like a three-year gestation process. And so it would have been actually impossible for us to have conceived the idea on October 7th and published the book on April 21st or 22nd,

whenever the book came out, just based upon time. So we started this in probably 2022, went under contract in early 2023, and then published the book in spring of 24. Did you guys know each other well before? We didn't, we did not. But Emmanuel basically came to his agent, he was like, I'm feeling anti-Semitism is on the rise,

which I want to commend him for actually not just noticing it, which most people didn't if you weren't in the Jewish community. Even I didn't, like I said. Most people didn't. Except I didn't notice those things that you said. So most people didn't notice that. So not only did he notice it, but he actually reached out to do something about it. And he was like, I want to do something for the Jewish community with the Jewish community, same as I did for the black community. And his agent, which is luckily my agent, was like-

Who's your agent? Well, it's UTA. Okay, you both have the same agency. Same agency, yeah. Same agency. How convenient. I know. And they, he said, hold your horses, I have the person for you. And Emmanuel went on a research as he does, and he's like, I think that's the right person. And he reached out and I was moved to tears when he did.

Because again, I felt I've been in this world of advocacy for the Jewish people against anti-Semitism, for the state of Israel, for understanding the Middle East, for the better part of the last 15 years. I saw what's happening. I knew this was happening. And at the time when Emmanuel reached out to me, it felt very insular. It felt very lonely.

So we were only a handful of us from the Jewish community and the advocacy and activism world that saw the tides have changed already. We knew this already, it's already, the ship has sailed. And most people didn't notice it. And for have to have Emmanuel reach out and say, he literally said to me on the first call, I want your community to know that relief is on the way.

And I started crying. I remember where I was standing in my bedroom and I started crying. Cause I couldn't believe that somebody would actually stand up for something that does, has nothing to do with him, with his community. And he paid for it because he's getting a lot of attacks just for being associated with, you know.

I was gonna ask you about that. Like how has it kind of, has it, cause there's a lot of people profiting, I'm gonna be honest with you, profiting by being very hardcore one way or the other. And there, you know, there are people who are taking it as their ability to kind of elevate their profile. Yeah.

Now there's other people that are really having a hard time. And you're saying that like you probably took a huge hit with that, right? Yeah. I mean, I think criticism is a cost of praise. Yeah. I try to remind people that often. Criticism is the cost of praise. So, I cannot sit here and complain about something and being criticized and being chastised and being cursed out and not simultaneously acknowledged. There are a lot of people that are standing with me, that are standing beside me, that are standing next to me,

that are saying, hey, we love you, we appreciate you. Thank you so much for what you are doing in this world. So, I am constantly reminding myself, criticism is the cost of praise. Yes, there's been a lot of criticism. A lot of people have unfollowed me. People have, I've been at dinner before I shared the story. I was sitting at dinner in North Hollywood at a place getting sushi and someone looks at me

and says, I hope they paid you well. And I was like, who is they? He's like, you know who they are. I say, who is they? She said, you know who they are. I say, who is they? She said, you know who they are. I say, who is they? She looks at me and she says, Zionists. And I was like, I said, look, my intention is to heal hearts,

is to heal broken. My intention is to listen to all people. And I know effort to defuse the situation, Jen, I say, hey, what's your name? She said, you don't deserve my name. I said, okay, well, I hope you have a good dinner. Cause it was her and three other colleagues. I was sitting there by myself. I said, I hope you have a good dinner. Because it was her and three other colleagues. I was sitting there by myself. I said, I hope you

have a good dinner. And I leave the establishment. With that being said, that was the first time I really understood what it must feel like to be like Noah, what it must feel like to be like you, what it must feel like to be Jewish in this moment. Because I got into my car and my windows are so tinted that you can't see out. So you definitely can't see in. But as I'm sitting there driving home, I was nervous. Like if this woman was willing to stop me at this restaurant, might she t-bone me at the light? Might she send someone at me? Might she push me into the intersection?

Like that was the first time I was like, oh, this is what Jewish people feel like in this moment. You know, it's coming from you. That's very interesting, right? Because you're a black man and you probably have had a lot of other racism. A thousand percent. Right?

So it's interesting that you're saying it like that. Like they're coming to you upset with you because you're supporting Jewish people. Because he, here's the jump that occurred in that woman's world, right? Because Emmanuel, just think that Israel has the right to exist. That's it.

That means the Jews are paying him. That is the anti-Semitism that we're talking about that is directly connected to the existence of the state of Israel. That's what that is. And she just concluded that he must be getting paid because that's what the Jews do. And because of my proximity to Noah. Because what's the craziest thing is if you read the book, Uncomfortable Conversation with a Jew, it is not like Noah and I holding hands, walking through a field of lilies. I'm challenging most notions. Even when you get to the Zionism chapter,

it is me saying, well, Noah, Zionism sounds good to the Israeli, but what about to the non-Israel? It's me really not even playing devil's advocate because the devil doesn't need an advocate, but it's me challenging every notion. So even had this woman read the book or seen my most recent Instagram story, she still wouldn't have said that. Because my most recent Instagram story was an excerpt from the book of Noah and I recording the audio book saying, well, Noah, Zionism sounds good in theory, but what about the people who don't agree with it? So it really just my proximity to Noah and me holding a platform and holding space for Noah that said, well, you must be getting paid.

It was wild. It was truly wild. It is wild. And then also, okay, before we even, I have a question about that, but could we just talk about the difference between, if you're anti-Zionist, does that mean you are anti-Semitic? Yes. Yes. Unless you want to dismantle every other country.

But if you just want, to be an anti-Zionist means that you don't want Israel to exist. That's what that is. You can be against the Israeli government. You can be against the war in Gaza. You can be against Bibi. You can be against Israeli policies. That's one thing and it's totally legitimate and valid. Right?

I myself have criticized Israeli government's policies or proposed policies in the past. Nothing wrong with that. But if you are an anti-Zionist, you want to dismantle the state of Israel by all means necessary, including October 7th. And if you want to dismantle one country and only one country, that's anti-Semitism. Just happens to be a Jewish country. What are you talking about? Can you be pro-Palestine and also, and also, or not be anti-Semitic? I am pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian. And I've been saying this for decades until I'm blue in the face. I'm going to continue saying that. I'm pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian, and I've been saying this for decades until I'm

blue in the face. I'm going to continue saying that. I'm pro-Israeli and I'm pro-Palestinian. I want the Palestinian people to live side by side with Israeli people, with the Jewish people, with the Muslims and Christians in the state and the land of Israel. However, you cannot do that with jihadi culture of Hamas. That's not what Hamas wants. That's not what Hezbollah wants.

That's not what Iran wants, and that is the difference. It's okay to criticize Israeli policies. If you want to take down Israel, you are anti-Semitic. And what's fascinating is the question you just asked, I was asking those questions of no one in the book and we were just going there. Because with that first question of like, can you be anti-Zionist and not being anti-Semitic? And we just went going further and further and further because I was like, but no, what if I don't want death and I don't want war and I don't want famine and I don't want displacement? And Noah was like, yeah, well that, Emanuel,

and it was just such a beautiful dialogue and conversation. So yeah, that's really why we wrote the book is the questions you're asking. And by the way, this book is also what I, the questions that you- By the way, just to clarify and put that again, just if people here are listening and hearing this for the first time, if you have a vitriol, a seething hate towards Israel, if you're obsessively kind of disproportionately obsessing over it, check into yourself and see where this is coming from

because Israel is not better or worse than any other country. No country is perfect, but this entire, the fact that there's even like movements that are calling for the dismantlement of Israel, that are calling for the dismantlement of the single Jewish state in the world, nine million people, the country the size of New Jersey,

you think that that is the problem in the world? And those people are literally thinking that the only problem in the world, let's just take down the Jewish state and everything is going to be fine in very much the same way that they said before, let's just kill the Jews and everything will be fine. It's the same threat. And now it's shaping up in Israel rather than with the Jews. It's kind of like not PC anymore to hate on the Jews, but it's okay to hate the Zionists. And it's okay to believe that the IDF is this bloodthirsty organization. That is literally kind of like skewed view that people have that has nothing to do with

reality. Well, the tides have changed, right? Because it used to be the cool thing, let's just say, to be pro-Israel, right? And then there was a huge shift, I think, with social media, with TikTok. No, no, no. It happened before. It was before. It was happening slowly. But now I feel like the number is a percentage of people ages like 21 and under who are really just pro-Palestine, but hate Israel. There's like a lot of that happening. Let's just call it pro-Hamas. Pro-Hamas. Because if you're supporting one side or the other. Okay, fine, pro-Hamas.

In this conflict, then you're pro-Hamas. Right. They found recently, and I don't know the updated number, but a few, a couple of months ago, that 52% of American kids ages 18 to 24 believe that to solve the problem in the Middle East, you gotta give Israel to Hamas. They are supporting a Sharia law, a jihadi culture that subjugates women,

that kill gays, that has nothing to do with liberal values as we know them today. It's completely misguided in the most horrific of ways in their real life consequences. It's not a cool kind of like hip social justice cause that you can identify with and do the right thing. You're literally being played by Iran. If your movement is supported by the Khamenei, by the Ayatollah Khamenei of Iran, you have a problem. You should really look at what it is that you're supporting. So how did you, how do you guys, how do you feel, why do you feel the tides have shifted? Even if it was before October 7th, why do you think there wasn't influx of antisemitism? And how do we shift it to go,

to kind of be much more neutral back to like move the pendulum? Put it back in the closet where it belongs. Yeah, right. Seriously, like how do you do it? I would say from the outside, there's a lot of lack of education and lack of exposure. What I mean by that is in America, especially me, non-Jewish,

when you look at a Jewish person in America, you perceive Jewish people to be white. And that's a part of the tension. It's because in America, more now than ever, there's a tension in society between people of color and non-people of color, between black people and white people to simplify. So if Jewish people are perceived to be white in America,

then every association that you have with white people to simplify. So if Jewish people are perceived to be white in America, then every association that you have with white people, you now must give to Jewish people, thus colonizers dating back to Christopher Columbus, thus slavery dating back to the last 380 years or so, plus Jim Crow, plus civil rights, plus segregation. All the things that you assume of the historical context of white people, you now must give to Jewish people if you assume Jewish people are white.

And I think that's the first step of the misidentification, misunderstanding. Cause if you go to Israel, you then realize, oh wait, Israelis and Jewish people aren't white. And so I think that's the first issue, particularly in the Western world and in America is we have put Jewish people into the white box. Thus everything that is inside the white box is now applicable to Jews.

Exactly right. So when you were asking the questions in the book, were you kind of getting, were you doing a poll with friends of yours and people you know to get what their belief system is on Jewish people? Was it all just you thinking like, oh, this is what I think, what you thought, like how did you compile all your questions? I never asked you that. Did you get questions from your friends?

That's a really good question. That's a great question. I've done this before. So interestingly enough, first book, Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man, I went through about a thousand emails and the questions I got the most common, I started the chapter with and I led with.

For Noah, I did a couple of things. There were some people who lost the tact in asking the question. And I was like, you know what, that's a good dialogue. I want to go there. Noah went to Berkeley's campus one time and somebody said like, you stupid mother effort. You are the dumbest mother effort. And in the midst of so much anger and hostility, I said, wait, there's a good conversation to be had here. The premise of the conversation, at least that was videotaped for us to see Noah was there, I was not, I just saw on social media, was, hey, can you be anti-Zionist and not be anti-Semitic? Because the student at hand was saying, I'm not anti-Semitic, but I'm anti-Zionist. Well, that conversation went left. So I said, you know what, let me keep that conversation from going left, but have the same conversation in the book. I grew up in Dallas in the midst of a lot of Jewish culture, so I wanted to have the

conversation about Jewish people in power, Jewish people in money. I live in Hollywood, live in West Hollywood, and I live literally the street of Hollywood Boulevard. I want to have the conversation about Jewish people in Hollywood. I'm the son of a pastor. I want to have the conversation about who killed Jesus and why do they say that this group killed Jesus or not. So the questions I got were so many questions that were perceived to be anti-Semitic, but

because I know how to ask them and no one knows my heart, let's go there and let's have those uncomfortable conversations. And it's a conversation, if these are conversations that people would have loved to have if they actually thought about this. And if they had the courage to ask. Like, are the Jews white? Are the Jews white? Are Jewish people white?

That's such a, you know, it's such a, it's a conversation. I think you said that before. By the way, are Jewish people white? Answer the question. Absolutely not. We are an ethnic group in and of itself. Some Jews in America or the majority of Jews in America are white passing. But when you go to Israel and you walk around and I always tell that story of a friend of

mine who's a black comedian, went to Israel for the first time. She calls me up and she's like, that was a few months ago and she's like Noah It's not a white country. She literally walked down the street. She's like what is what is happening here? so in Israel 31 only 31% of Israelis define themselves as of Eastern European descent which means the rest of them are either Arab Israelis or Jewish from Arab descents or from Northern Africa or Ethiopia or whatever. So no, Jews are not white, they're white passing. And so the interesting thing here is to a non-Jewish person, the white passing conversation

is the only conversation that matters. Because in America, it don't really matter if you're white or not. It don't matter if you're black or not. What do you look like? What do you look like? Because so many things in society have been predicated upon what do you look like? What do you look like? Because so many things in society have been predicated upon what do you look like? What do you sound like? Yeah.

There was a study that talked about if you have a... I was about to say something really good that you said and I forgot what it was. I'm sure it'll come back to me. I'm sure. But to me, it's a matter of are you white passing or not. So though the Jewish person might care about not being white, to the non-Jewish person, it don't matter if you white. Are you white passing?

Because if you're white passing, you'll get grades from the police officer driving down Rodeo Drive. If you're white passing, you'll get grades from the job, from the CEO who's hiring. Which by the way is true. Exactly. It's not mutually exclusive, it's true.

You do get a pass from the police if you're white driving down the street. Right, white passing, yeah. If your entire family perished in the Holocaust and your parents were not allowed to own houses in various places in America because no blacks, no Jews, no dogs, and you're now being put in the oppressor bucket, it's very confronting and triggering and also historically incorrect. And by the way, I think this also a lot of Jewish people don't even know. Of course not. Like a lot of the questions.

Some of them define themselves as a white Jewish woman. Yeah, they do. It's like you're really, you don't know what you're talking about. And by the way, not even just that question. It's like a lot, when I was going through the book, I'm like, my God, you can give this book

to a Jewish person and they can learn something. Because I think there's so much like misinformation out there. And that's why, by the way, look behind you, that book is that you gave me last time on Israel. That's the Israel book. But what did you find that was the most shocking to you in this conversation, Emmanuel, that you were like, oh, wow, you know what, I didn't really, I didn't know that at all. Let me put a pin to your last thought. When I wrote Uncomfortable Conversations with a Black Man, there were so many things I learned.

Like as a Black man writing that book, especially in this election season, I learned about gerrymandering. Like it heard the term, but never really knew like what it meant and how it was applicable. Like how different areas in society where Black areas are, there are less voting booths,

there are less poll stations so that the Black vote can count less. Like so many things I did not even realize that in writing this. So I think what you said is brilliant and beautiful and Noah said it as well, and that a lot of Jewish people can learn from reading the book as well.

The biggest surprise, I loved how Noah defines anti-Semitism, because when we hear anti-Semitism, you think about it like racism, right? We don't like you because you are black. But anti-Semitism, how Noah's defined it, and I'll let her take the lead on the ton and run with it is, it's not just looking up at a Jew, it's looking down at a Jew. It's not just looking down at a Jew, it's looking up at a Jew, thinking that there's

this mysterious control that Jewish people have or simultaneously thinking that Jewish people are lesser than. That was probably the biggest shock. Everything else wasn't so much as shocking as it was just a beautiful dialogue being heard and hearing. So do you want to- And that definition is anti-Semitism is a ever-transforming conspiracy theory.

So that's what it is. You don't just look at somebody and you say, oh, I'm much better than them because they're this ethnicity and I'm this ethnicity. No, you don't just look at a Jew as something that's below you. You also think of the Jew as someone that is controlling, conniving, has mythical powers almost.

And that is the main thing that people don't understand. It's not as simple as racism because if you say something like, Oh, the Jews clearly control all the money in the world, you think that it's a compliment. But what preceded that for the Jewish community is, uh, let's take that money away and preferably let's put them into gas chambers So we are epigenetically triggered when we hear this knowing oh, no, no, no, no Don't talk about overly too much control or power and all of that. In addition, I am still looking for that Jewish cabal

If you find it, please let me know I would like to be a part of it. Right, right, right Well, I think that's the biggest one, right? Like all the Jews are rich. All the Jews have all the power. All the Jews own all the media. And if that was the case, by the way, why are we in this situation we're in right now when all the media is very skewed?

I'm asking you the question, if that is, why do people have this idea that we're all, well, there's a lot of evidence that it's not the case. Well, it's been around hundreds of years, if not thousands of years. Like this mythological concept of the Jews as the fifth column, as a cabal, as controlling, as conniving. The protocols of the elders of Zion took that concept and put it into this book that became

a huge bestseller in like hundreds of years ago that is still today prevalent in people's minds of this conspiracy theory that Jews are sitting around in a room and deciding how the world's going to work. And again, I wish it was true. I wish. I wish it was true too. This was another great chapter. Maybe my favorite in the book was Jewish people in power because I told Noah at 21 years old, I got drafted to the NFL to the Cleveland Browns. My owner was a Jewish man. Traded from the Cleveland Browns to the Philadelphia Eagles, the owner was a Jewish man.

The general manager of the Philadelphia Eagles was a Jewish man. I left the NFL. My first agent was a Jewish woman. I left that agent. My current agent is a Jewish man. And so I'm like, in my life, Jewish people have held the title of owner, manager, and agent. That's a lot of power positions. So I was like, well, Noah, let's go there. Because though it comes off as offensive, I'm like, in my life, owner, manager, and agent, those are some pretty powerful sounding positions. Let's talk about it.

They're not rich, they're wealthy. That's the big difference between rich and wealthy. It's okay to say, listen, the Jewish community isn't overrepresented. It is over contributing because Jews are obsessed with education and success and have not been allowed to own things or be in certain positions. So they became like highly achieving, driven. That is true. That's great. It's true that a lot of Jews are in positions of power. Between that and a cabal, a control, a conspiracy is sitting down and organizing. That's the jump. It's true. The Jewish community is, you know, 0.2% of the world population, but we're 22% of Nobel Prize winners. That is amazing.

A massive, yeah. It's huge. It's important. I'm super proud of it. I think every Jewish person needs to be proud of it and other communities can learn from it. That's great. But there's no control, power, cabal, all that stuff. Right. That's where you jump into the conspiracy theories.

That's where you jump in. That the Jews are control of it. And by the way, when you have this subconscious bias against the Jewish community that has to do with control and power and obsession, you kind of a thing, over power, right? Then of course you will have a skewed opinion about Israel. Of course your opinion will immediately jump into, oh, clearly it's a Jewish country. Then they're overly bloodthirsty, overly powerful,

overly this, overly that, which goes back to anti-Semitic tropes from like a thousand years ago. Was there anything that you were actually like, kind of like, she kind of confirmed your bias on? Like confirmed the stereotype? Like, kind of like, yeah, like she's like, for an example. I have one. Like for example, you know, her, right?

Like Jewish people, women, Jewish women have a stereotype that they're like strong personalities, controlling, domineering, not to say you are any of those things, I'm just saying. No, not at all. I am nothing of these things. You know, like somebody- Nothing. I am a Wilty Willow, just like wallflowery person is who I am.

Right. Was there anything that confirmed your bias? I didn't realize certain things until getting into the culture. I didn't realize Jewish women are very tough. I had my- You didn't? No. Oh boy. I didn't interact with Jewish women in such proximity and intimacy.

I mean, Noah and I were talking hours on it. I talked to Noah more than my mom. Yeah. For a good year there. Genuinely. How much were you guys talking to each other? A lot. A lot. Okay, how much time at this? All day? Sometimes more. There were days where it was like an all you know, did you guys become friends? Yes. The beautiful part was we were friends before. Yeah. If Noah and I weren't friends before, the book wouldn't have happened. It would have completely fallen apart. But there

were times we would go from 3pm to 10pm. Totally. Just like in a room like this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just talking to things. Until smoke comes up. Yeah. And I think the stereotype that you have enjoyed the most is the Jewish feeding woman.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. What would you like to eat? What do you want to eat? Do you want to eat? What do you want to eat? What do you want to eat? You are good like that though, I have to say. I don't leave hungry. All about it. But no, yeah, we were talking six, seven hours, but it wasn't like, hey, what's your favorite color?

Hey, so quick. No, no, no. It was real conversation. It was real, hard, intentional, intense conversation. Fun. Fun. Life's too short. Just make it fun and deep and real.

And you weren't offended, of course, by anything that he said. Not even a little bit. And I think that's one of the most important things that people need to remember. First of all, I knew where he was coming from. I knew his heart. Intention. And I knew his intention and I knew that he's standing at a place of love and authenticity and real curiosity.

That's number one. Number two, I don't believe in trigger warning. I don't believe in safe spaces. I believe in real spaces. So I, and I say this a lot when I talk to high school kids and college kids, I say, here's a superpower, don't get triggered. It's not your responsibility to worry about my feelings. I'm going to be worrying about my feelings. So I'm not going to start walking around the world being like, oh, don't use this word, don't use that word.

This is like offensive to me. I'm like, I just think of the superpower. I'm not offended So to begin with that's where I'm at and couple that with the manuals heart There was nothing that was offensive or off the table at all. By the way, that's a superpower in life though, right? That's what I'm talking about skills and resilience in my world, right? Like you cannot have these trigger warnings and you're offended easily. You can't do this. You can't say that. I can't imagine what it's like to be a high school kid going into college right now being like, oh, God forbid somebody says something that's hurting my feelings. It's called caudal culture and it's a real problem. But that's a whole other podcast. Listen, I'm from Israel. I was at war as a kid. So I'm like, I'm used to living in a place where

people don't want me. Yeah. And also, but it's made you strong. Yeah. Totally. Yeah. But I heard you guys did fight on this thing. Again, just for my own research in stuff. What were you fighting about then? Do you want to take it? Probably fought about three things. And don't lie. Tell me the truth. No, that's why I said it. Don't lie. It's in the book. It's in the book. Well, we probably fought on three things. The first thing, most notable chapter 16, how this book almost didn't happen. True story, Noah and I, as y'all can tell,

are close friends, but we didn't speak for maybe three weeks, maybe a month. After October 7th, I sat down with Noah to do an episode of Uncomfortable Conversations with Emanuel Ocho, obviously an Israeli woman. I also sat down with a Palestinian woman. The dilemma is- Oh, right.

Which is fine. Sitting down with a Palestinian woman is totally dilemma is- Oh, right. Which is fine. Sitting down with a Palestinian woman is totally fine. It's just that particular woman, if that particular woman is not allowed on any American media because she's so extreme, why are you platforming her a week after October 7th? So I sat down with the wrong Palestinian- One person. Why did you use her?

You could have had the wrong Jew as well. You know, that's a good question that I haven't really had time to explain. When you do a show, as you well know, Uncomfortable Conversation with Emanuel Oste was my own show. I created it. I funded it. I started it.

I booked my own guest. There is no guest booker. I'm the guest booker. After October 7th, it was near impossible to find people to sit down with because I either got to fly them in, I got to drive them in, I got to book my own production, I got to book my own director of photography, filmography, social media, I mean the whole nine,

I got to find a location. So even getting Noah to sit, Noah was flying to New York the same day. So I booked a studio in LA at like 8 a.m., Noah came maybe like on the way to the airport. Probably 40 minutes late, but go on. It's not like, Noah came- Not never usually, right?

Noah came, no. Like right on time, like tears were shed. So that was just Noah. Then in order to find the Palestinian person, I got no after no after no after no after no. Really? I had to drive 1,000%. I mean, I had to drive to San Diego and get my team to San Diego,

book a location in San Diego, pay for a spot in San Diego. Mind you, this was during the NFL season. Again, I'm an NFL analyst. So I'm recording games, watching the football games that I have to cover the next day while driving to San Diego, renting a studio in San Diego,

getting a bus to send my whole team to San Diego, just to shoot this episode, to edit it on the drive back from San Diego so that the world can receive it. So it wasn't so much like, I can't talk to everybody. Right. It was more so. You just didn't know what you didn't know. Right. And, and, oh, I'll leave it there. I'll leave it there. No, no, go, no, no, finish the end. That's the part I want to know. I don't want that. I'll leave it there. I want the end. Well, I think a lot of people, as you said earlier, you can be front-facing one way

and then there can be another side of you. So you can present one side of you and there can be another side of you. For example, tweets and past interviews and stuff that were said that was like, whoa. Also, it's really interesting that you said that you got a lot of refusals from Palestinians to appear on the show because at the time,

which was before Israel even retaliated, there was no defending October 7th. Oh, yes. And she was defending October 7th. Let me tell you something. That's the thing. You're absolutely wrong about that because the day after I- I know.

You know, you're not getting my point. I know what happened on October 8th. I know very well, I have a whole bunch of conversations and write-ups about it. But I'm saying a normal person couldn't defend October 7th. That's true. And the only person that was willing to sit down a week after October 7th and defend October 7th

before the war started was a person that is questionable. Yeah. And I think for me, where I stood as like a non-Israeli, I said, okay, there are clearly people who don't feel how you feel, Noah. Because after October 7th, I posted with Noah on Instagram Live. We did one for like an hour. I asked her everything that could happen that happened. I said, hey, how can I help you in this time?

She gave me a brilliant answer. I posted it on my Instagram story. I get a direct message the next day on Instagram, Emmanuel, how dare you, how could you? I'm so disappointed in you from a black colleague. He said, you only said stand with Israel, but what about the other people? So I'm like, uh-oh.

Yeah, here we go. I made a boo-boo. And so then I was like, okay, I need somebody who doesn't believe exactly what Noah believes. It was easy to find people who believed exactly what. Now, I didn't want somebody who was defending October 7th. That wasn't my intention. But I couldn't just have everybody in lockstep alignment

because somebody cussed me out for my post. So the person who cussed me out, where is this thought process coming from? And it wasn't like a stranger. Somebody I've known for 15 years at this point. So I was like, you're cussing me out for what I said. There must be a different line of thinking that I'm missing. By the way, what I said, she was cussing him out for saying, reach out to your Jewish friends.

Yeah, it was pretty wild. That's it. Just reach out to your Jewish friends. How dare you? I was so confused. I was so confused. So that really was my intention. Going back to the post going, what did I do wrong?

It was like literally nothing. That was my intention and my motivation. It wasn't to be dismissive. It wasn't to be crude. It wasn't to be rude. It was more so, hey, Noah, I'm not Israeli. I'm not Jewish. And there are people in my community saying, hey,

Atchoo, what you're doing is wrong. So I went on this investigative journey as to why are you saying that? Let me talk to somebody who doesn't believe what Noah believes. That's why the book fell apart. That was a sharpest disagreement. Literally didn't talk for three weeks. I didn't know that we would write the book, but we both put our pride ego, whatever aside. And to the conversation, I was very upset.

I was very upset by that choice to do this and to platform that particular person because of the stance that she took on the most barbaric attack in modern history and the most videograph pogrom that was like glee, murdering people with, you know, glee and biblical and religious joy. And then after thinking about it and calming down for a couple of weeks and knowing where Emmanuel comes from, I knew that it's more important for me to follow through and for us to write this book than to be triggered. And I think the beautiful thing for people listening is like, you can disagree. Totally. Like the fact, my favorite thing about this book is that there was a chapter seven.

Totally. Chapter 16 is how the book almost didn't happen. But the fact that there was a chapter 17 is the most beautiful part because we disagree. And Noah wasn't just upset. She let me know she Totally. Chapter 16's how the book almost didn't happen, but the fact that there was a chapter 17 is the most beautiful part because we disagree. And Noah wasn't just upset. She let me know she was upset. So it wasn't like Noah was passive aggressive or quiet or like. No, no, no, I don't believe that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I prefer aggressive aggressive than passive. She put it all on the table. And I responded and I was like, hey, I hear you. I love you. I care for you. I can't listen to you. And she was like, hey, I hear you. I love you, I care for you, I can't listen to you. And she was like, hey, I hear you, I love you, I care for you, but I'm going through too much right now.

And I was like, I love you, but I, and so we just parted ways, but we came back together. So for those listening, watching, who will listen and watch, it's like, it's okay to disagree and not even disagreeing on what you want on your pizza. Like it's okay to disagree on various matters. Amazing things, yeah.

But can you listen? Can you hear? Can you understand? Can you come back together and reconcile? Yeah, and this book, I think to a huge extent is actually showing people how to have these conversations. So we talked about things, something happened. We went our separate ways.

We came together to show people, not just the content of the conversation, but actually how to have these conversations coming from a loving, supportive and curious place. Got to wrap soon. So yeah, okay. That's why I get with that. So besides the fact that this book became a New York Times bestseller, didn't it?

Yes. Congratulations. Besides that, obviously, what else would you hope that people glean from this book that you're trying to like the reason why you wrote the book in the first place besides shedding information, getting people educated? Is there anything else? I think the biggest reason is understanding that we can go further together as a community, whatever community you're in.

So if you are a man, stand beside a woman. If you are a black, stand beside the white. If you are a black, stand beside the white. If you are a non-Israeli, stand beside the Israeli. If you are the Israeli, stand beside the Palestinian. If you're the Palestinian, stand beside the Israeli. I got it, yeah. Mine, like, well, you get it, but not everybody else does. And that's why when I verbalize it,

the person listening, they only hear if you talk to them. So you got it, but like, I need to make sure everybody does in the sense that like, that was a hope for writing the book. Like sit down with somebody that doesn't look like you. And do you have a series in mind? Like you did the one, the first one with the black man with the Jew, do you have another one coming out? Like, Comfortable Conversations with Hamas coming up soon.

Is there another one with the, exactly. Like, what's the conversation with the Ayatollah Avira? Exactly. Man, honestly, like, I just- It's like a good series, you're off to a good start. I see where the hearts are and I go there. I don't pre-plan it. I don't pre-plan it.

That would be, my intention would be impure if I did. So I don't know what's next. Wow. What are you, so what are you working on? You have your show. What are you working on, my dear Noah? Traveling the world. My God, everything.

There's a lot of work to be done. We started an organization called 18 to transform the perception of Israel, the Jewish people, anti-Semitism, and work through media, culture, and education. So we're working hard on that. Wow. So you're just basically, like I said to you, you're like the spokesperson for the Jews, saving the Jews one Jew at a time. No big deal. Yeah. No pressure.

No pressure at all, right? Thank you guys for being on the podcast. I really appreciate you guys coming by. Guys, the book is called Uncomfortable Conversations with a Jew. And thank you guys. Thank you.