Habits and Hustle - Episode 425: Shannon Race: Secrets to Standing Out in Saturated Markets + Branding and Marketing Insights

Episode Date: February 18, 2025

Do you have a great product idea but worry about standing out in a sea of competitors? In this episode of the Habits and Hustle podcast, I am joined by Shannon Race, co-founder of BioMe and former head of global marketing at Vital Proteins, who shares her insights on building successful brands in crowded markets. We dive into a range of topics including the importance of product differentiation, authentic storytelling, and leveraging micro-influencers for effective marketing. We also discuss the psychology of packaging design, the evolving landscape of traditional and digital marketing, and the key factors venture capitalists consider when investing in startups.  Shannon Race co-founded bio.me, a pioneering gut health and fiber supplement company, and serves as a board member and strategic advisor for Koia plant-based protein drinks. With over 12 years of experience in marketing and brand strategy, Shannon is currently a Principal at Starshot Ventures, where she leads investment strategy and advises portfolio brands. Shannon has spoken at industry events such as Create & Cultivate, BeautyCon, and BevNET.  What We Discuss: (01:00) Building Successful Brands in Venture Space (12:26) Celebrity Endorsement Impact on Brand (21:45) Revolutionizing Gut Health With BioMe (30:49) Trends in Wellness and Hormone Therapy (42:20) Entrepreneur Branding and Market Appeal (47:26) Elevating Branding Through Packaging and Storytelling (01:01:56) Enhancing Branding With Micro-Influencers …and more! Thank you to our sponsors: AquaTru: Get 20% off any purifier at aquatru.com with code HUSTLE Therasage: Head over to therasage.com and use code Be Bold for 15% off  TruNiagen: Head over to truniagen.com and use code HUSTLE20 to get $20 off any purchase over $100. Magic Mind: Head over to www.magicmind.com/jen and use code Jen at checkout. BiOptimizers: Want to try Magnesium Breakthrough? Go to https://bioptimizers.com/jennifercohen and use promo code JC10 at checkout to save 10% off your purchase. Timeline Nutrition: Get 10% off your first order at timeline.com/cohen Air Doctor: Go to airdoctorpro.com and use promo code HUSTLE for up to $300 off and a 3-year warranty on air purifiers.  Bio.me: Link to daily prebiotic fiber here, code Jennifer20 for 20% off.      Find more from Jen:  Website: https://www.jennifercohen.com/ Instagram: @therealjencohen   Books: https://www.jennifercohen.com/books Speaking: https://www.jennifercohen.com/speaking-engagement Find more from Shannon Race: Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bio.me/?hl=en  Website: https://bio.me/

Hi guys, this is Tony Robbins. You're listening to Habits and Hustle. Crush it! Before we dive into today's episode, I want to thank our sponsor, Momentous. When your goal is healthspan, living better and longer, there are very few non-negotiables. One of them? Quality. And when it comes to supplements designed for high performers, nobody does it better than Momentus. Momentus goes all in on NSF certification, which means every single batch is tested for heavy metals, harmful additives, and label accuracy. And that's why they're trusted by all 32 NFL teams and top collegiate sports dieticians across the country. Here's the thing, they don't sell every supplement under the sun because they believe in nailing the basics with rock solid consistency. And those basics are form of creatine monohydrate available, an absolute

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Hello, Shadyn. We have you as a guest. We have a great guest, you guys, today. If you're somebody who is an entrepreneur, has a great idea for a business, or has a startup, this is the podcast you should be listening to. All right, because our guest today is Shannon Race. She is the principal at StarShot Ventures, which is a venture fund where they basically invest

in brands, emerging brands, or ideas, which we're gonna talk about. She's also the co-founder of a company called BioMe. We're gonna get all into it. And we're gonna learn about how deals are made in the venture space. What are some like hot things that people are looking at now?

Like what's emerging, what's trending. And so like I said, if you are an entrepreneur, you know, you're gonna like this one, so stay tuned. So hi, Shadyn. Hi. Thank you for having me. Absolutely. I know we were talking so much

before we even started this whole mic thing. I'm like, oh my God, we had a whole podcast before the podcast. I know, I know, so much to say. So much to say, and this happens all the time. Usually some of the best information gets done before or after the podcast. So I'm like, stop this happens all the time. Usually some of the best information gets done before or after the podcast.

So I'm like, stop, don't talk anymore. You just need to have a running like, you know, Q-tape or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. I would be a good idea actually. I think I'm gonna think about getting that, starting to do that. So let's start from like the beginning.

I think the first thing I wanna tell people is that Shannon was someone who worked on some of the biggest brands, Vital Proteins is one of them, and it was sold for, I think it was the biggest sale in wellness products in history. Yeah, huge, huge, huge, huge exit for the vitamins and supplements space. So I want to talk about that because that's a great Akira product to talk about, right? Sure. So talk about, in a very crowded space, right? The first thing is how does a brand,

how does a product stick out when there's such competition, it's so crowded, especially in the health and wellness space. You have a bazillion supplements, a bazillion brands. How does someone create a brand that is... How do you create a product and differentiation in a crowded market? Listen, it's really difficult. I think looking back at the vital proteins experience, we were kind of, it was a really interesting time.

We were kind of in this precipice of like the world and media and how people were viewing vitamins and supplements was drastically changing. Vital proteins was also collagen supplements. And that was very much a category creator, if you will. There at the time when I started working there in 2016, nobody was talking about collagen, collagen supplementation.

It's kind of laughable now. I think back, the girl who stepped into that office to start that job was like, I don't really even know what collagen is or does or what we're doing here, but I'm excited and ready to dig in and ready to be a part of this. And now it's like everybody takes collagen, so it's pretty wild. That's great. So was Vital Proteins the first to start that bandwagon of collagen?

So there were some older brands that had been in the space for maybe a few years, but very, very focused on in the nutraceuticals and like the cosmetic kind of space. Yeah, in the beauty world. Right. So, you know, there hadn't been a brand that came through in the collagen space that was really focused on fitness and lifestyle. And vital proteins in the collagen that, you know, Kurt created was from his own personal journey, his health journey. He was a runner. He was really looking to create a product that runners could take and help extend the

longevity of their joints. And so that was like the birth of vital proteins and very differentiated from what was existing on the market. And as the evolution of the brand went, we started dabbling in the beauty world and other areas too. But it just, Vital had something super special that a lot of these other brands didn't have, which was this idea that collagen was meant for everyone.

And there were so many different benefits that collagen had as a supplement. And a lot of people were really narrow in how they were positioning products. And we were out there really trying to encourage use across a very wide demographic. So yeah, just different strategies. So what is the strategy?

So let's say, so Kurt creates vital proteins. He comes to you guys because he needs money. How far was he along before you guys came on board to help him grow it? We had been, he had been, the brand had existed for about three years, roughly. So I think when I started, you know, we were maybe just getting to like cresting

like 10 million in sales, still very small. And so yeah, I mean, it was, he started building a team around like where he really saw the brand going. It's just so funny. I, we've, we've been working on some internal documents and I pulled up this old vital proteins picture of Kurt whiteboarding in a WeWork when I first started. And it was like, we were really focused on these different verticals that we wanted to really penetrate. And it was like fitness and beauty and nutrition.

And we had people at specific, like the helms of each of those categories and how it was all interconnected. And it's just so crazy to look back at how we were thinking about attacking the market then versus how we ended up attacking the market, which is so, yeah, yeah. Isn't that always the way it is? Like, I think, you know, organizationally, we, you know, the structures are constantly evolving and shifting and, you know, you're kind of figuring out like, what is really working in

our strategy. And one of the biggest things that I was so excited to be a part of and like on the forefront of was building this massive influencer program that ended up becoming the secret sauce of the brand and the mode as we called it to a lot of the success that we built there because we were building community online and really, you know, leaning into expert voices and a variety of different niches and reaching so many more

consumers than we otherwise had through other traditional marketing tactics. Well, that's the thing, right? Like I feel like that's the game now. Like every, that's why the wellness brands like AG1, like they spend a ton of money. Tons. Like probably the most. That's why the wellness brands like AG1, they spend a ton of money. Tons. Like probably the most. That's their whole strategy. That's their whole strategy.

Yeah. But they're also just a DTC brand, an online brand. Well, actually, no, I think they are expanding into retail now. I don't know. So tell people that they... So that's interesting, right? Because then if you are just an online brand, you don't have to, going into brick and mortar is very- Margins are better. You don't have to deal with all of the hoopla that comes with. Well, tell us the difference.

Say, why would somebody stay on, do a business only online versus, what's the benefits of being a business online versus going into brick and mortar? I mean, I think truly it's, you know, the margins that you have. If you're strictly selling through your website and you have your own fulfillment center,

you're vertically integrated, let's say, your margins are gonna remain extremely healthy, which then gives you more marketing dollars to invest in telling the world about your brand, advertising, performance, advertising, influencers, what have you, the minute you start. But that also can be a downside. If you don't have distribution points and major retailers

where people can easily access your product, you're relying on people being willing to go to your website and sign up for an AG1's case of subscription and maintain that subscription. And that's their only kind of real touch point with the brand. Obviously, being in retailers gives people other opportunities to have a touch point with the brand in the physical world. So there's like good and bad to it.

The upside is the marketing dollars. You have so much more that you can reinvest in the brand. Well, I mean, because now isn't it just all about the influencer marketing? Like every brand that does very well spends a lot of money on social media. Like it's no longer the traditional way. But what was interesting about Vital Proteins is that they spent a lot of money on getting Jennifer Aniston as a spokesperson.

Yeah, it's a good story though. Okay, tell me the story because I'm like, why would a brand like that spend, like obviously I didn't know what I was taught. I'm like, how much did you guys pay her? Like in the 20 million, 50 million? Yeah, in the double digits of millions, but it was also, the contract was structured

in such a way that it was tied to performance goals and KPIs and things. It was a really smart deal, which clearly came back in spades for us. Yeah, clearly. And the reason, that's the thing is I've talked before about this with a lot of people, I don't necessarily encourage celebrity partnerships personally as a marketer, predominantly because they tend to be really inauthentic and they're just going to dry up your marketing budget

and probably not produce the results that you're looking for. The reason it worked so well for Vital though is, and this is the story, the lore of it all. So the day before I started my first day at Vital, I was doing some online research and just trying to figure out, okay, where have they been placed in press? Because I started as a PR manager there,

which is also hilarious to think about now, cause I was head of global marketing as I left. So a lot of upward transitions. Wow, you went from PR manager to the head of global marketing for Vital Proteins. Yeah, yeah. That's a big jump. It's a lot, yeah.

And a totally different area too. I mean, they're sisters, but not- There was a lot of interwoven strategic things happening on the marketing front that afforded me the opportunity to kind of like, OK, I'm going to take on this additional responsibility. OK, I'm going to take on this additional responsibility and kind of helped build my path there.

Certainly not what typically happens. I'll forever be grateful for those opportunities. And Curtin trusting me with that and having great leadership supporting me along the way. But that aside- No, I want to hear the story, but first tell me the Jennifer Annes' story. Like, how did it happen? Yeah. So I found a Well and Good article when Well and Good was still, you know, really up and

thriving. I don't know what happened, but where she was talking with her trainer about, you know, what her typical post-workout smoothie is. And there was a link to collagen peptides in there. And I was like, that's really random. Also, ha ha, I'm going to start at this company that sells collagen peptides. I've just never heard of this before.

I clicked the link and it goes directly to the Amazon storefront, vital proteins, collagen peptides. And I'm thinking, oh my God, are you kidding me? Jennifer Aniston, this is 2016 also too, still a small company, not ready to take on a celebrity endorsement. But I was like, this is huge. This is huge. So start my first day, sound the alarm. We did some stuff with it on social. But the craziest part was we ended up getting in touch with our manager who confirmed, yeah, she's a user of vital Proteins Collagen. And I was like, that is crazy. And so through the years,

sporadically, we had tried to work out a deal then. Didn't come to fruition. Wouldn't have been the right time. We wouldn't have really been able to publicly support what would have come out of that. But I came back full circle before I left and moved on from Vital, which was crazy. But the authenticity of that relationship... Well, how did it happen? Like, how did it come full circle? You missed the best part. Well, they, I mean, it was always something like, we always knew in the back of our mind.

She uses it, right? How did you convince her to come on board? And why was, like, because you said yourself, most celebrity endorsements don't really work that well. You're spending a lot of money on a lot of like nonsense. But for whatever reason, she's one of those celebrities that really moves the needle. Well, listen, she doesn't do a lot of brand deals.

And I think that was one of the bigger attractive things about her. At the time, she also didn't even have any social media. So when we were, which is funny, because we were, you know, we built this entire brand predominantly on social media. So we're like, how are we gonna work with a celebrity who doesn't even have an Instagram page? We did get to basically launch her Instagram

with Vital Proteins as like the deal. Yeah, I think she started posting maybe like a week prior to the announcement of our, of our partnership, which is crazy. So it was almost like, you know, so many synchronicities, so many things happening in tandem. It was like beautifully aligned. What was the deal though? Like what, give me the details of what the deal would be.

So she did a commercial for us. We were dipping into OTT and linear TV advertising. She did end up doing a line of college and bars with us, social media posting, event appearances. It was a lot of press. So it worked. I mean, the relationship was really organic. And it just, the fact that she was a user

and had been a user for so long, it just, it seemed that way, I think to the public. And, you know, like I said, she didn't have a lot of endorsements. She didn't do a lot of endorsements. When we talked to her manager about it, it was like, she was excited about this because she's like, this is a product I actually genuinely use.

Right. I'm not just, you know, doing this deal to do this deal. Well, besides Avino and Smartwater, I think Vital Proteins- She had that eye drop too. Oh, I don't even remember that eye drop. Yeah, I love, I think. You're right.

But did you see the sales skyrocket once Jennifer was on board? Because it was a huge part of our big Amazon DSP play, a huge advertising play on Amazon, the different streaming ads that we did. Yeah, it was a big like Amazon DSP play, like a huge advertising play on Amazon, the different streaming ads that we did. Yeah, it was a big deal. I mean, it was kind of funny because the actual campaign itself launched

probably a couple of weeks after I formally left Fido Proteins. It was cool to see it live. But then I was like, my dad would be texting me like, I can't escape this day in Jennifer Aniston. He was everywhere I went. And I was like, my dad would be texting me like, I can't escape this damn Jennifer Aniston video. It's everywhere I look. And I was like, good, we did our job.

That's great. Right, you're gonna use it. You're gonna milk it for whatever, for everything. Yeah. Was it a year? Is it like a multi-year deal? Multi-year, yeah. Yeah, and so.

I think she was five years. Wow, did she own a piece of the company? Was that part of the deal too? I know there was an equity component. There typically is some big brand deals like that. Right. Yeah. Did you try doing any other celebrity endorsements because that one was successful or? Not while I was there. That was like the one that we, I mean, you know,

we looked at other celebrities and you're also trying to move with the market, right? And you're like, okay, she, we know she's a, she's a great user of the, of the brand, she loves the brand, you know, but is there someone else that might appeal to a demographic of consumer that we're trying to reach? And there's always like this push and pull of like, is this right? Is this not? And we did so much, I mean, the amount of research and surveys and just really trying to ensure that this was the right move. That's, you know, there was a lot of legwork leading up

to that. I would imagine. In terms of just, let's stay on like influencer marketing. What's the difference between digital marketing, like influencer marketing? How do you get the biggest bang for your buck online when you market? I mean, it's so different depending on the category.

There are brands, Poppy's a great example. They lean very heavily into their influencer marketing and it works so well because they've really positioned themselves in the space as a very culturally relevant brand. So TikTok was like their number one social platform. Not only is Alison the founder such like an engaging personality on TikTok and was really able to kind of build

a lot of very viral content around her founding story, just her as a person, an aspirational person. But that platform just served them so well from an influencer standpoint. But every brand is different. Some brands can go that path and it works really well and others, they need a more traditional approach, which might be traditional ads that educate consumers or we're actually, funnily enough, with BioMe, like kind of wrestling with this, but working through this right now, because we're trying to re-educate people on a category that's been around forever,

that they have like a preconceived notion of, right? And then we're also trying to really dip into that lifestyle space that I know, like tried and true through my years at Vital Proteins where, you know, I want people to see this as like a cool, sexy, fun brand and not, you know, the fiber products of, you know, generations past. Like Metamucil. A thousand percent. But say it because that's the truth, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because that's a very good point, right? Like it's one thing to kind of be the first to bring a category to, I guess, to the market, right? Like it's one thing to kind of be the first to bring bring a category to, I guess, to the market, right? Like a collagen for vital proteins. Yeah. It's a whole different thing when you're trying to like re like, re innovate or innovate something that's been around forever. Right? So can you walk me through like steps on how you do that? Yeah. I mean, first identifying a market space, or an emerging market, or a market that, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs have told me in the past, because I, you know, being in the CPG space,

you become friends with so many people who are on these, like, very cutting edge brands. And a lot of them are like, you know, I used to just, like, walk the grocery aisles and look at, you know, specific categories that I'm like, nobody's done anything in this space for so long. Like, why am I buying, for instance, Heinz ketchup, you know, Primal Kitchen came out and now they have their cleaner ketchup. But it's like, why am I still like settling for this? It has garbage ingredients in it, tons of sugar, like why wouldn't I create something better for consumers that are wanting less sugar, cleaner ingredients, et cetera, et cetera. And so a lot of it is that,

physically going into a retail store and being like, something here, why am I still buying these old Saji brands? And then others are, you may be looking at market analysis reports and seeing that there's a continued growth in a specific market and you're like, huh, that's interesting. That's a signal that maybe this is something we should think about, like the energy category, for instance, huge explosive market. When you start to see brands and we have interesting insight because we get a lot of deal flow through the VC side. So you're starting to see, oh, there's like definitely some patterns happening with I'm getting a lot of pitches for investing in, you know, energy beverages or, you know, things

and things like that. And you can kind of say, all right, this there's something going on here. Maybe I need to dive a little bit deeper into this market. For BioMe, it was really the former, which was that this was a category that just has not been touched in so long. And there's such a misconception around the benefits of fiber. And people just lack the understanding

that fiber is a foundational health and wellness tool. It is not just for when you can't go to the bathroom. And that is the thing that, you know, I was like through my own gut health journey and everything going on with me personally, I didn't even think of fiber as a tool for gut health until maybe three years ago, prior to this company forming.

It's interesting. I've known about fiber forming, I mean, it's wild. It's interesting. I've known about fiber for, I mean, in terms of for gut health, it is like a primary source. Like it helps your entire digestive system regulate. It feeds all of the beneficial bacteria in your gut. It is literally the food for your microbiome. But like when you're going through, I mean, I'm not an expert in gut health, but I was on

my own personal journey. And the things that I would read about is like probiotics, collagen supplementation is good, bone broths, things like that that can help reseal your gut lining, just eating healthy. Like there wasn't, I didn't recognize fiber as this critical source to kind of completing the pre-pro and post-biotic kind of trajectory that you're looking for in your GI tract. So that's why you're like, you know what, we gotta like rebrand fiber.

Yeah, and awareness, education. I think like I was saying earlier to you, I feel like right now it's all about protein. People are talking about protein. Protein, protein, protein. That's all you hear on social media. Eat more protein. It's maybe because also my algorithm is doing it

because like I'm old. And so in middle age, like they say, you've got to eat more protein for muscle mass and blah, blah, blah. But there is a massive, there's a massive hole in other macronutrients that are so vital. Yeah. I remember when I was younger, when I was a teenager, I kind of never heard about protein

and only heard about fiber, right? It was reversed, but everything comes back around, right? Yeah. And so I guess I'm going to ask you a question that I'm sure you hear all the time. Like why is BioMe different than Metamucil? Well, I mean, first and foremost, it's the ingredients. We went for very clean, very streamlined, like only what you need type of ingredients. Also ingredients that have a lot

of clinically proven benefit to them. So like our daily probiotic fiber, for instance, which is like the number one product that we sell, it's just two clean ingredients. We have glyphosate residue free certifications. We have upcycled certifications, meaning that the food is, it's like upcycled ingredient sources. It's low fog map, you know, it's non-GMO project verified. All of those things were really important to us because I was like, I want like the top of the line, best fiber product on the market that is going to do what it says and keep you healthy in the process. Why not just eat more vegetables or fruit? You should. Why take a supplement? You should. So, and that's like the other thing too. I talk to people a lot. I'm like. And that's the other thing, too.

I talk to people a lot. I'm like, I'm not saying only take fiber supplements. No. You need diversification of fiber. So you should be eating a lot of fiber in your diet. It's just that we live in this modern world with crazy schedules and lifestyles. And to get, for women, on the low end,

28 grams of fiber in your diet a day is really, really difficult. So like some visual examples for you, I think it's 10 cups of non-cooked spinach is seven grams of fiber. There's- What? Yeah. Yeah. So there's seven grams of fiber in one scoop of biome. So like when you start to think about it, you're like, holy crap, that's a lot of spinach that I need to eat. Excuse the pun. Or an apple is four grams with the core and the skin and everything.

And so I mean, I would never, ever, ever tell people not to eat their fiber. They absolutely should be eating their fiber. But this is a way to also help you meet your fiber goals and ensure diversity of the microbiome with different fiber sources that you're likely not getting through your diet. Well, you know, it's funny you say that because I think that like for my diet, I seem to eat the same thing over and over again, right? So I'm only getting one source of fiber.

Like I eat apples all the time. And I eat, let's say asparagus, but I'm not eating as many of the rainbow color vegetables, just because you're right, you're busy. So in like, for example, with something like this, bio meat, is there a difference between the different sources of fiber that you're getting from different fruits and vegetable or isn't fiber just fiber?

There are different sources for sure. There is also different types of fiber. There's soluble fiber versus insoluble fiber, which actually work in the gut a little bit differently. Your soluble fibers are actually going to create more of like a gel substance in your gut. And it helps with that absorption of nutrients. Sorry, I was like, what am I saying?

The soluble fiber, so soluble, okay. Soluble fire helps with the absorption of nutrients. It helps slow down the digestive process. It helps you better absorb your nutrients. And so things like, I actually was just at a conference, and I thought at conference over the weekend, a lot of athletes should be taking something like that alongside their protein post-workout,

because it's going to actually help you better metabolize your protein. So it helps with MPS and things like that, and just get more out of your nutrients. So that's a function of fiber that's really beneficial and soluble fiber specifically, whereas insoluble fiber, which is, you know, what you would associate with imidamusil, or in our case, we have a product called fiber rescue, is going to help really with like cleaning out your GI tract. So it actually creates bulk to help you go to the bathroom

and basically detox your GI tract as it moves through. So different functions. Okay, so that's interesting. So insoluble fat fiber is what helps you with constipation. Yes. Okay, so, because by the way, when people, every girl I know, when they're traveling especially, they're like

constipated. It's literally everybody. I think the women are the only ones that talk about it. I was going to say, maybe, that's true. Let me say something else. Everybody I know when they travel, they get constipated, especially on long flights. And it's like to find something that is a natural way to poop after traveling as opposed to like, I mean, I don't know about you, but when I get

off a plane and like days are going by like my pants and my my belly is like so extended. It's horrible. Also, it's just it like it hurts. It's uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable. I yeah, the the honestly, the fiber rescue product is like what I, everybody takes with them. I'm like constantly sending it to people because they're like, hey, I'm like going on this trip

and I just say, you know, I think- Yeah, how long does it take to like activate? Like when does someone take it? If you're traveling, if I'm going on a plane, if I'm traveling- Within a day. Okay, so should people take it like on the plane? No, so, and the reason being because the way that it actually works is that it's pulling water

in from your organs and internally to help bulk up the stool that causes you to go to the bathroom. If you're doing that on a plane where you're already getting super dehydrated, you're probably not gonna feel the best. You might get a headache, you might just get super dehydrated, you're probably not gonna feel the best. You might get a headache, you know, you might just get more dehydrated quickly. So wait until you're off and rehydrated.

And it's always important to just drink it with a lot of water anyway. So that would be my, that would be my depth. Yeah, that'd be, so what else, by the way, you were saying earlier about collagen is really good for your gut health. You said the collagen also helps you a lot with your gut health.

Yeah. I never heard, I didn't know that. Yeah, it's, you know, the amino acids in it and it creates almost like this coating, this like, and that helps calm inflammation in your GI tract. That was like, you know, when I started working at Vital, it was the first time that I was opened up to this world of more naturopathic ways of healing

your body and wellness. And that was a huge, huge, huge unlock for me because I had been dealing with gut health issues since I was in middle school. And it's kind of sad, but developed a weird kind of relationship with food. I was kind of scared, but developed a weird kind of relationship with food. I was kind of scared to do things sometimes if I would get sick randomly.

It was embarrassing. It was a lot of emotions that came along with that. And as I started to really do research and look at, oh, there's ways I can just heal this with food through eliminating foods that clearly are triggers, that I may have some sort of intolerance to, and just kind of repair and restore more naturally. And that was a huge deal for me.

Yeah, absolutely. Let's get back to the business side for a second, okay? Yeah. All right, so when you got, you said earlier how you got the deal flow, right? When you have so many deals because people are looking for money, obviously, to grow their business. Yeah. And it's different depending on what stage of business you are, right? When you have so many deals because people are looking for money, obviously, to grow their business.

And it's different depending on what stage of business you are, right? Like if you're an early stage versus when you were working, like, well, Star Shop, which stage are you guys on? In terms of like our brands or? Yeah, like, do you look, are you investing in early stage? Are you in? Oh, what are we investing in?

We're more in the growth space. In growth space. In growth space. Yeah. Yeah. So when you get all this deal flow, what exactly are you looking for as people to invest in? So you said earlier about things that are like hot or emerging. Yeah. And you get, do you find out what's hot and emerging by seeing the amount of the same thing being pitched to you all the time? You'll start to see a trend, yeah, and types of deals that are coming through. And also too, we focus pretty much in consumer for the most part.

So food, beverage, vitamins and supplements, there's consumer tech, there's a little bit of biotech in there, but mostly we're focused in CPG. CPG. Yeah. So that's consumer product packaging. That's like snacks and stuff like that. Yeah. So you do start to see trends. There was a massive trend in like everybody was making a bar and trying to make a healthier bar and things like that. Isn't that still a trend? I feel like there's certain things that never go out of style. An energy drink?

Yeah, it is. But you also have to look at, is there an actual differentiation in what's happening in that space? Or is that just a super saturated space that would take so long for you to create something incredibly differentiated that actually might be interesting for an acquirer. So the way that you think about it as an investor

is not just whether or not this investment is going to pay me back, but is there an exit path here? Is there a way to actually see this investment through? And so you work with banks, and you have access to what are different strategics looking for right now. Most of the time, they have very specific categories that they're really focused on. They're trying to build up a portfolio in a specific segment. And so when you have that as kind of like a guiding light a little bit,

you can kind of sift through a lot of the deal flow with a little bit more of a focus. So what right now, what are some trending things that you're seeing a lot of? Well, frankly, there's a lot that's going on in the fiber space. There's a lot that's going on in women's health, specifically around menopause. You're seeing a lot of brick and mortar actually in kind of like the Medi Spa space, which

is interesting. What else have I recently seen? Medi Spa being like... Like injection, like Botox, things like that. There's like a lot of these interesting emerging kind of franchise models. Everything you just said is exactly what I've seen. Because I see the... And by the way, I don't know if it's because I'm in that space of wellness and longevity, if it's just the things that I'm looking at or seeing because it's in my world, or is

that really what the trends are? Because I've seen differences all... I pick up on those trends as well. What I've seen in the last two years, the menopause, middle age women space has skyrocketed in terms of products, in terms of conversation. And it's become like a juggernaut, I guess, in the finance industry. There's so much money in it now. The doctors who are talking about it are making a lot of money.

They're becoming celebrities in their own way. Hormonal therapy is huge. So all these telemedicine places that are hormone clinics are becoming massive. Peptides are huge. That's what I'm seeing a lot of. Yeah, peptides is another big one. Yep. It's just really interesting. I love, love, love to see that perimenopause and menopause are being talked about so much more and brands are starting to cater towards that demographic of women that I think has just been forgotten for since the beginning of time. So it's like, oh, good luck, go to your doctor. You're going to have hot flashes and then you have some luck. But nobody's really talking about hormone health is just so incredibly important for women

throughout all stages of their life, frankly. I think a lot of hormone imbalance can effectively help keep people from experiencing a lot of crazy things going on in their life as they go through each phase of their life. Well, if you wanna know the truth, I actually think it's very dangerous because you're fucking with hormones, right?

You're screwing with your hormones. And the problem is when something becomes very trendy and there's a lot of money that you could be made, that you could make in this area, every charlatan comes out of the woodwork and is selling you hormones or telling you you need hormones or prescribing a hormone. And that's one area that you should not be screwing with

without a trusted medical person. Totally agree with that. And what I see a lot, especially on social media, everybody's talking about like, oh, hormone therapy. Oh yeah, testosterone. Everyone I know is like, is shooting themselves up with like so much testosterone. And they're listening to people who are like ninis

in the business. Not qualified. Yeah. Yeah. And even people who are qualified, you have to be very, very careful because people who are even qualified, they're getting like kickbacks from all these companies and they're making money because every time

they're putting a pellet in your butt, like a testosterone pellet, they're making $1,000. They're charging you two and they're making a thousand. So you have to be so- Definitely. Like conscientious of who you're listening to. To me, that's what's very scary in this wellness space. It's one thing if you're peddling a protein powder or a protein bar. It's the underbelly of the supplement world, right? It's like where people

see opportunity and they take advantage of people. Yeah, snake oil salesmen. Yeah, totally. And by the way, I shouldn't even say snake oil salesmen. It could be anybody, like I said, who's opportunistic. It's like, you know what? I can talk about this. I mean, there's a lot of doctors who, you know, I don't know if they got like a hormone certificate, if there is such a thing online. And they're like talking and talking about like hormone therapy. Like, I'm not trying to like preach on my little, what do you call it? That white? What do you call that thing? Like, I don't mean to

I don't mean to my soapbox. Yeah, I don't mean to be preaching on my soapbox. I'm just very concerned, right? Because a lot of people I know, they're like, they're people are DMing me asking me, they're like, what do you think? Do you think I should go on this or go on that? I'm like, hello, I'm not a doctor. I don't even know. I'm not even. No, for sure, that should be prescribed by a doctor. Like you should be getting blood work done, all of that. And even do it from, but my point is, the reason why, not to digress, but like to me, that's a massive trend right now.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think everybody's looking for whether we want to admit it or not, like the quick fix. I mean, I think everybody's looking for whether we want to admit it or not, like the quick fix. I mean, we could talk about like- That's been like that for all- GLP-1 and all of the things that are happening right now in that world. That's a peptide, practically, right? So that is, like that to me is like, that's the most popular peptide, right? It used to be other ones like CG something, something or BPC 157. That's for like inflammation. I can go on about this for

inflammation, but I won't. I don't want to bore you guys. But what I also, so that's one area in the food space, like Poppy is a good example, right? Like Poppy came after Ollipop. Ollipop was like one of the first ones to come out, which was this like prebiotic or probiotic. Prebiotic. Prebiotic. Yeah. And they were crushing it. And then like, so they were not even pop, it wasn't even the first to market. Right. So how did they, did they surpass Ollipop? Or are they? I don't know. I mean, they've been pretty much neck and neck for years. So they may have, but I'm not, I don't know. So it comes down to like, again, brand, like how do you differentiate? You're the same

product, right? How does one, you know, like surpass another one that was first to market? Like, is it just better storytelling? Well, I mean, I can give you a good example too with vital proteins versus bulletproof, but yeah, which is that's a great example. And we can then we can also talk about Papi and Oli pop and how that all because they're they're effectively the pretty much the same product or they're selling the same product, which is a better for you soda that has fiber in it, but they're doing their their marketing strategies that could not be more different, but the Bulletproof and Vital Proteins of it all,

so Bulletproof, I think actually, I mean Bulletproof was on the rise when Vital Proteins was extremely small. So even though we had actually launched our products prior to them, they became like, they were like right out of the gate, a pretty hot brand. And I would attribute that to Dave Asprey being a personality. I think, you know, their connection to LA and like being in Venice, they had

that Bulletproof Cafe. He, you know, it was, it was very much, they were the ones to watch in the wellness world and, you know, but their entire platform was all based on biohacking. And it was all about like, you all about optimizing your health and wellness, to see XYZ results. And it was really cool because that was also the emergence of this discussion around biohacking and how you could biohack and then you have to like the Ben Greenfields of the world, and et cetera, et cetera.

And Dave Asprey was really at the forefront of that. He was really eccentric, had a lot of, frankly, sometimes crazy things to say. But he really was living, breathing that brand. And I think that really grabbed a lot of people's attention because it was just so unfamiliar and unique and interesting. We, on the other hand, were very much more mainstream,

mass market, general appeal. We weren't trying to tell you how to biohack your way through your life. We were telling you, you know, collagen can help you with foundational parts of your life, like your joint health, your skin health, your, you know, gut health, et cetera. And so it was, I think what ended up happening was the biohacking was really, really hard for mainstream, mainstream America to grab hold of because they're like, what? I don't understand it. It's too much way over my head. And we were really much, we were very much in the space of like, we just want to educate on the benefits that frankly, Joe Schmoe and, you know, Kansas can relate to. And so completely different approaches to how we addressed the market, which I mean, now you see what happens

when you narrow yourself in your focus so much and can't get out of your own way versus when you really think about how do I attract the whitest pool of consumers? I'm glad that you just brought that up because that's a great area to talk about, right? Because there's a lot of conversation on is it better to be more niche because then like you are creating, you know, you're a community and then you're not like people say like, you know, not everyone's going to love you but if you have like, it's better to have people that are like hardcore fans of yours, right?

That are, you know, true blue, but smaller, then like, then just kind of cast a wide net and like, just try to be like everything to everyone, right? So when do you know, or how do you know when you should be niche? Cause it works sometimes like that versus what you were talking about, which is casting that wide net and being much more friendly to like the masses. I mean, I think there's like a common, there's like a couple different factors that really need to be aligned for you to have a successful company that speaks to the masses, but also doesn't wa also doesn't waver from the values of the brand.

I think if you really wanna focus on one subset of community and that is you don't care to expand beyond that, that's your personal right. But if that's also too, it's like, what's your business intention? Like, what do you want to do? If you want to, I mean, at the end of the day, at Vital, we wanted to help get people healthier across the world.

Like, that was just generally what our goal was. We wanted to help people understand mycologen could help support their health and wellness goals, generally. And what we weren't willing to sacrifice on was ingredient quality, integrity of our brand, you know, certifications. There were certain things that we were like, we are going to do this in the healthiest, better for you way, if you will. And those are the things that we're not going to waver on.

Everybody, like we always thought is everybody should have access to this product. Why wouldn't they? Well, you're right. Well, the thing is, why wouldn't they? Well, you're right. Well, the thing is, just to talk about Bulletproof, you're right, like most people, their product was like the butter and the coffee thing, right, that was like the big thing for many years, right? That in itself is gonna be very niche, it's gonna be very popular in LA, right?

Like you were saying, and maybe like certain people around like in like the big cities, but like people in Iowa or you know what I mean? Or wherever, Kansas, they're not going to their cafe to get butter in their coffee. So that's a super niche market. But like to your point, I think when you have a founder who is a big personality, it helps, right?

Because he's building a community, right? And so he'll have a lot of people who are like fans of his and followers who will just like listen to what he says and that will kind of generate a lot. But like what I'm getting from this, like from over, like even if we were talking earlier about the Poppy founder, right? He was on TikTok talking about her story. It. It sounds to me, and from what I've noticed,

is that for a brand to really stand out these days in the clutter, it's really a good idea for the founder to become a personality. A thousand percent. Right? A thousand percent. Going out there, creating a story around the founder, speaking authentically, finding your voice,

you know, getting an audience, right? Yep. And not be so niche in terms of like what you're talking about, but make it more like, like you're saying with the pop thing. She's not talking to like a biohacking community. She's talking to like all women or all people who have children or like to bigger market, but still niche at the same time.

Yeah, she's relatable. She's relatable. Like to me, it seems like to be like everybody needs fiber in the world, for example, right? Like this bio meat, everybody needs fiber. That is real. That to me is relatable, right? So what's your plan?

How are you, and this by the way, is not an advertisement for BioMe. I'm just saying that I just think, I'm using it as a good example because you were taking a product category that's kind of been stale for many, many years and you're revitalizing it. You're creating cool packaging. You're making it, like kind of been stale for many, many years and you're revitalizing it, you're creating cool packaging,

you're making it like kind of like, you're branding it in a more youthful trendy way than Metamucil, right? Nobody wants to take Metamucil because they'll feel like they're 108 years old, right? But if they take BioMe, they don't feel like, they don't feel like they're at the old age home necessarily, right?

What kind of steps are you putting into play? Are you doing a lot of influencer marketing? Are you trying to become a personality? What is your marketing plan? It's funny because when we first launched, I was doing a lot of educational videos and talking a lot about my story and stuff. And while that is definitely very integral to our strategy, because at the end of the day, going back

to what you were saying about Alison, who's the founder of Poppy, people want to be able to connect with a person. They don't necessarily just want to connect with a product. It's actually, in fact, hard to connect with a product. And we're being inundated with products and ads and crap all day long. And it's just like when they see someone that they're like,

oh, I can relate to that story. Oh, I struggled with the same thing, and maybe this could help me too. That is what creates that connection. We live in this very online world, and we're always just trying to find a way to connect with people. And so my story as it relates to Miami,

and not even just my story with gut health, but my entrepreneur journey or my journey with how I got to where I am in my career, all of those things are super relatable. And people care to know them because they're like, maybe there's a negative information in there that I can take with me and will help me on my path or whatever that is, gut health, career, what have you.

I agree with you. Like this is why I like doing this podcast with you because there's different verticals that we can cover that I think a lot of people can get from. Number one, like how you took your career and went from being a PR manager to running global marketing for a massive brand. I think that's very like inspirational for people who think that who are feel stuck in what they're doing. Yeah.

And you're giving the message, the positive message that you know what, anything is possible. You work hard, you put yourself where opportunity is and things will happen. Yep. And it's not impossible, right? Like you've pivoted in your career from PR manager to global marketing head to now a founder of like a category or a company that like you're reinvigorating a very big area. And I think that to me is very the evolution of that and how you've done it. I think people are listening, what they should get from that is like,

no, nothing is impossible. If you have an idea or a brand or sorry, or a company or something that you wanna like get into the world or bring to market, like there should be nothing stopping you, right? Like there's always a way to do it, right? Like there's listening to podcasts, listening to how like, you got to find out

like what's big and what's kind of trendy, how to create a brand identity. How about packaging? How important is packaging for the brand? Yeah, is that a question you want me to answer? Yeah, I want you to, yeah. I think it's really important because I love your packaging.

I think it's extremely important. Yeah. I mean, it is also too, it's like the first connection that people have with the brand. So when also to, I mean, it's also, too, it's like the first connection that people have with the brand. So when also, too, I mean, the way that we looked at it was like traditionally what has been in the fiber space just feels very antiquated. It's like the stuff you see in your grandma's kitchen

countertop. And it's just like there's nothing that is exciting and makes you want to connect with it in a meaningful way. We wanted this to feel sophisticated, sexy, smart, but I wouldn't be embarrassed to have this sitting on my countertop. Nobody would look at that and be like, oh, you can't go to the bathroom. You know what I mean?

Right, right, right. No, it's exactly true. Are there certain colors for packaging that work better than others? When you did all of your, I guess When you did all of your kind of, I guess your recon on how to kind of do this, what did you find in terms of packaging? Frankly, there's like a couple reasons why we went this direction.

One was when I was really dreaming this whole thing up and what do I want it to look like? What do I want people to feel when they look at the brand? I was like, where is my happy place in life? What's my happy place in the world? And I love, love, love. I go with my parents pretty much every year to Positano and the Malfi Coast.

And it's just my happy place. It's where I make memories with family and people I love. And it's just always brought me like a sense of calm and peace. And so I just started pulling images and the water and the sand. And I was like, I really wanted to live in this kind of blue-green sand gradient space, this world of place that makes me feel happy, makes me feel refreshed. Because you look at the category, just the supplement world in general, and there's

just like, it's like freaking rainbows everywhere. And you're like, do I go with a core color or do I go with every single product is a different color of the rainbow? And I just didn't want to go that way. I wanted it to really feel like it maintains some sort of integrity, some credibility, something that felt scientific but not unapproachable. Well, isn't there, did you do any research on like color schemes that work, that don't work? Okay, so give me some like actual tactile things. Besides, I mean, I love the fact that you had a vision

of what you want, but I'm looking for like people who are listening and they're like, okay, I got to package this or that, the other. What are some things that you learned in the process of what colors work better than others? So it's really like I delved into the psychology of color is how do people, what colors create different emotions in people. And so for me, yeah, sure, I could have barreled down a path of red, but that usually elicits

some sort of like anger or frustration from people. It's not a very inviting cover. It's peace and calm. Yeah. So very much synergistic with what my kind of vision had been. But I, so I wanted, you know, I mean, that's something tactile you can take with you is like, read up on the psychology of color, like be careful not to use like some crazy color that's going to make someone feel like a specific emotion unless you're trying to elicit that. But the other thing too is just clean and simple and easily understood. This isn't really necessarily formulaic or a science or something you can read up on,

but think about what you want your consumer to get it, like you want them to get across right away when they see your packaging. First, you know, there's different hierarchies in packaging, do you want the name to be the first thing that they see? Do you want it to be the product name? How big in comparison? Do you want them to understand on front of packaging

exactly what your product will do for them from a benefit standpoint? How do you want that to look? There's a lot of different layers to it, but I just was clean, simple, straight to the point and I wanted it to come across like it was trusted. They could trust that it was a brand with integrity. Okay, I like that. What about, okay, so in terms of when you guys are going through the deal flow, when do you...

Pivot. Yeah, big pivot. Yeah, big pivot. Well, only because I want people to get like, yeah, so I want them to get like a good understanding of all these different things. How does somebody raise money? When do they come to you, like a venture fund? And when do you guys, like what are the steps?

Like what do you guys decide besides okay, you like the product? Are you looking for just sales? How much money they've set they've spent like give me like in a shark tank moment. What are you guys looking for? I mean, the thing is, is it's for I'll speak on behalf of Star Shop Ventures because every VC is different. I mean, they're all doing different types of deals.

We are more in the investing externally and growth. So, I mean, obviously revenue is a big factor, gross margins, do you have a path to profitability? What does the next 12 months of your innovation pipeline look like? Do you have the ability to expand into other categories to create more revenue on top of maybe a core line that you've already produced.

Is there a right fit from like an exit standpoint? Like, is this something that strategic start would want to acquire because it's complimentary to a portfolio that they already have? So you're thinking through all of those things. But I think, you know, it's just from the world of Starshot, like we're all brand builders, operators, owners, like we've all been involved in this world from that place for a very long time.

And so a lot of VC firms are like, we just want to put the capital in, we'll be here as an operational support if you need it. But we're hands off. We will go to the board meetings and get up to date on dealings of the business and whatever and make some suggestions here and there, but we don't really want to be too hands on. We're the exact opposite.

I mean, we're putting capital into a business with a lot of executive team members that are experts in various parts of an organization, sales, finance, marketing, yada yada. And we wanna be involved. We wanna deeply be involved because we believe that we can actually help you accelerate your growth. So it's just different approach, truly.

How about traditional marketing? Is it just dead? Well, define traditional marketing. That's what I was gonna say, what is traditional? Like people- Like mail you get in your mailbox. I mean like yeah, like TV. I'm just trying to think of what people do traditional.

Magazine, articles, like things like that. I mean, yes, print is tough, but- Print is dead. Print, in the magazine world, I think is really pretty dead. But TV, I I mean nobody's watching actually I mean but it's all kind of pivoted to streaming and so you have all this opportunity with ad streaming and it's that's it's that's huge that's a huge if you can afford it that's huge because that's expensive it can be and it like it's it's really interesting because

it's like as you know yes at first when it came out, it was really expensive. Now it's starting to become less expensive because there's all of these interesting agencies that have the ability to find like remnant streaming opportunities, which brings the cost down significantly for marketers. And yeah, it's kind of an ever evolving kind of situation. But TV, linear TV, which is like your traditional TV,

yeah, unless you're probably advertising during the Super Bowl, probably not your best place to be putting your dollars. I mean, social is still forever. It's going to be the landscape. But now it's kind of more of like, how do you diversify your spend in that landscape? Where are you putting those dollars?

Does it work best in TikTok? Does it work best in Metta? YouTube is huge. What are your goals and objectives and like who are you trying to reach? Right. And then coming like for the future, do you see, where do you still see gaps in the market?

From a product standpoint? From a product standpoint. Oh goodness. I wish I had had some time to think about this. I don't really know because I'm sure if I knew off the top of my head, I'd be trying to figure out how we could innovate in our right of way. I mean, I think that the beverage space is always going to be an interesting one to play in. It's the hardest though. Refrigeration. It is the hardest, but well, yes, but if you can create shelf-stable

products. There's so many though. I mean, listen, like there's so many Me Too brands, like there's so many of everything, right? Like, again, like no matter, I just, then one just pops again and you're like, how did that happen? Like in the supplement, like ritual crushed it. Oh yeah. You know, why? Is it because they have a see-through bottle? That's like, that's the secret.

Like why does some brands just like totally click on Instagram and social media? Is it because it looks visually appealing on social media, right? Cause of influencers wanna talk about something that looks cool. I mean, that's definitely a part of it. But I also think it's kind of right place, right time in a lot of ways. Ritual was the first of its kind in that space.

And I can say the same thing for Vital. We were the first, we were doing that for the first time on social media. Like, we were literally there at the birth of traditional influencers as we know them on Instagram. Like, now it's crazy because I'm like, you know, like in a time machine backwards, talking to influencers about rates and I'm like, how the hell did this get so expensive? Like, what is going on? And, you know, before then, like, I was, I don't even think half the people that we worked with charged us a dollar. We are just giving them free products. So it's just-

It's become a crazy situation. And let's talk about this for a few minutes and we can wrap it. But it's like the micro influencer versus the big mega influencers, because it's still my opinion. You get way more bang for your buck with a micro influencer. A thousand percent. Right? A thousand percent. Because their audience is very engaged.

And by the way, they're seeing your posts. Yes. The bigger you get, less people are seeing your stuff. Because meta, Instagram, they want wanna charge you, like the person, to boost the post so your audience actually sees your stuff. Yeah. I mean, I can't tell you how many people I see,

they're like, oh, I'm gonna follow you on Instagram and I give them my stuff, and they're like, oh, I do follow you. That happens a lot, right? I think people only see a very small section of someone's stuff. Totally. And it's usually like the content they're engaging with the most or like the type of content that they're engaging with the most. I mean, yeah. I find it very interesting. And I think that I've heard a lot of stories from different

founders and CEOs of people who spend a lot of money, millions of dollars. So they're like, oh, we're getting this person who has 20 million followers. They're going to talk about our supplement. I'll tell you a story. Okay. One of these very big brands, these very big supplement brands, they spent, yeah, they spent like $5 million on this girl who's very well known, who has, I think she has 19 million followers and they were so excited.

They're like, yeah, we're gonna we're gonna make our ROI. We're gonna make our return on our investment for sure. She's gonna post this many times. She's gonna do this and this and this and that and they paid her a ton. Like they went way over the money. They had the budget the girl not only did she not did it not perform it. It was so under perfect. The performance was so miniscule. I think that it only converted

into three or four bottles of the supplement. You're kidding. No. It's horrible. It was horrible. Wow. And I think this happens more often than not. Invest your money in getting 20 really good micro influencers, like 10,000 followers and under. Absolutely. And save yourself a lot of money. But also too, because if you're looking at this person with 19 million followers and the content is like pushing an ad, you're not going to get... Like, authenticity is so important.

You have, you know, I have friends, influencers that have frankly become friends over the years. Yeah. That are like, they have the most engaged communities because people are like, they're just real. They just do everything like they would in normal life. It doesn't feel like they're pushing like a specific, you know, idealistic lifestyle. It is really them.

And like, for instance, I was with Katie Sturino over the weekend. She is like... Who? Katie Sturino. Okay. She's the founder of Megababe. She's a big deal. But she is like... Already down. Yeah, you should follow her. She's just also hilarious and crazy. Like crazy in like the best possible way. But she literally tells it like it is. Every picture that she posts is just, there's no question that that picture that she posted is her 100% of the time. And I love that. Yeah, I think that's true.

Because I feel like I'm actually connecting with you. I'm not connecting with a version of you that you want me to connect with. And that is- It's the authenticity. Yeah. And people just do not pay enough attention to that, and frankly, especially marketers. 100%. I think because a lot of times people who are making the decisions on who to use as the influencers to promote their brand or whatever, aren't the people who are spending the money, right?

They are outside agencies who just have a job and they have like a mandate, find me four people who are wellness and they're not watching the content, they're not looking at the engagement. And so it can be a problem, right? And it doesn't match. Like it's very interesting to me how when I see it,

like you want people who are very vulnerable and very authentic and it's very hard to find. So, and by the way, it's very hard to do that on social media. It's very difficult. Super difficult. Yeah. Super difficult. It's like a whole.

Because it's an unnatural thing. You're talking to like a camera. Exactly. It's a very unnatural thing. It's so hard. And I guess it's also, yeah, like those are just like little things that I picked up on from my experiences in business and stuff like that.

No, I mean, you're spot on with that. I mean, if anybody takes anything away that's a marketer from this, that is that investing in more of these niche communities through the lens of micro influencers is going to far in a way exceed any ROI that they would get from some massive influencer. Absolutely. The other thing is find people who actually are using your product authentically or who actually has a need for the product. Because I find that if you're giving it to someone who doesn't have a need for it or like it or care about it, even if it- And do they even talk about the things that you're pitching them? For instance, if they're literally only posting their outfits every day and it's all about fashion,

I'm not paying you to talk about a supplement. You're never gonna be able to engage with your audience. First of all, your audience probably doesn't even want that type of content from you. That's not why they're following you. And secondly, they're gonna be like, this is super random and clearly not. This is clearly them. Exactly. 100% agree with you. Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll let you go now because I've had you here for God knows how long. Sorry,

Ed. Poor Ed. He has to sit here and listen to all of this stuff. But okay, Shannon, you are, Shannon Race, like I said, you guys, she's a co-founder of BioMe. Thank you for coming on here. Thank you. And this was very helpful. I got some information on fiber and gut and I got some information on venture side. It was a nice like smorgasbord of information. And by the way, you know what we forgot to do on this podcast, which I don't know how we forgot because it was sitting right here.

Because normally what I do is I do these like magic mind shots on the show. Can I do it with you? Yeah, because I've I do is I do these like magic mind shots on the show. Do you want me to do it with you? Yeah, because I've had like literally like five. I keep on saying that, but I- You had five today? Well, this is what I do. My normal routine in the morning is I have one before I work out.

And then the days I have a podcast, I like end up doing like one, if I have two or three podcasts a day, then I'm having like, you know, so I can't have them. I can't have them. I can't have four. The founder told me don't have more than two, Jen. And meanwhile, I have like three usually. Well, I have not had one today, sorry. Okay, have one. It's delicious. Have you ever had one? Oh, you told me you've had one. I have had one. Yeah, I'm familiar with the company. Yeah, it's very good. I like them. Usually these things taste terrible,

but these are very, very tasty. And the ingredients, talk about ingredients being clean. Very good, they're very good. You guys shoot it all back. I was worried that I was gonna spill it and get green all over my hands. No, no, no, you got, yeah, it's good though. It has a lot of like ashwagandha, it's got a lot of good things in it,

but it does help with the focus. However, we just finished the podcast. So maybe you'll be focused the rest of the day. I will be focused on all of the work that I have to do now. Good. Well, then I'm glad we did it at the end, not the beginning. So thank you. All right, so guys, check out, well, Shannon,

are you on Instagram even? I am on Instagram. I've kept it private. I was going to say, aren't you private on Instagram? Yeah, so then check out BioMe. Go to bio.me on Instagram. There's a lot of good fiber tips and recipes and fun things there for you. If you travel, don't forget to take BioMe.

If you have any kind of gut issue, you need to kind of clean up your gut, BioMe is great. Don't forget to eat your fruits and veggies. And like I said, if you're constipated, sorry, but it's true, try BioMe. Do it. Yeah. Bye. Thank you. Oh, by the way, more thing.

Guys, I keep on forgetting to say this. Please, please, please leave me comments. Please subscribe if you haven't. It makes a massive difference. I never ever talk about it, but I always forget, not because of any other reason, but comments really help me know what you guys wanna hear about,

what you like, what you don't like. So please don't be shy, leave a comment and have a good day. Bye.