Habits and Hustle - Episode 45: Robert Greene – Critically Acclaimed Author – Known For Books on Strategy, Power, and Seduction

Episode Date: January 7, 2020

Robert Greene is an American author known for his books on strategy, power, and seduction. He the man behind the international bestsellers: The 48 Laws of Power, The Art of Seduction, The 33 Strategies of War, The 50th Law (with rapper 50 Cent), Mastery, and The Laws of Human Nature. In today’s episode, he talks about narcism, the immense power in admitting and owning your flaws, and ebbs and flows of life when he was starting up his career. He’s known as one of the greatest writers of our generation and surprisingly, he mentions that he had up to 80 jobs before becoming an author! Today’s episode is extra special which is why it’s 90 amazing minutes.  Youtube Link to This Episode Robert Greene’s Latest Book: The Laws of Human Nature Robert Greene’s Website ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ Did you learn something from tuning in today? Please pay it forward and write us a 5-star review on Apple Podcasts. 📧If you have feedback for the show, please email [e-mail]  📙Get yourself a copy of Jennifer Cohen’s newest book from Habit Nest, Badass Body Goals Journal. ℹ️Habits & Hustle Website 📚Habit Nest Website 📱Follow Jennifer – Instagram – Facebook – Twitter – Jennifer’s Website Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

VITAMIN WATER 0 sugar just dropped in all new taste. It was zero holding back on flavor. You can be your all feeling it. I'll play and all self-care you. Grab the all new taste today. VITAMIN WATER 0 sugar. Nourish every you. VITAMIN WATER is a registered trademark of glass O.

Ugh, another pointless video call where nothing gets done. I think you're on mute, David. Sorry, what did I miss? IT just approved Miro for the whole company. Miro? That's the... Online whiteboard. For team collaboration, we can make these long video meetings so much shorter with Miro

boards. We can share ideas, feedback, and updates on them whenever. Actually see what we're talking about. It's all online. Mirror will make our flexible work set up so much easier, with one virtual space for our brainstorms, projects, presentations. Oh, that sounds kind of amazing.

So I don't need to wake up for 6am calls with the London Office anymore. Now you're getting it. Don't let time zones get in the way of your team working well together. See why 99% of the Fortune 100 trust Miro to get good work done from anywhere. Get your first three boards free at Miro.com. That's M-I-R-O-D-C-M. I'm IRO.com. Welcome to The Habits and Hustle Podcast. A podcast that uncovers the rituals, unspoken habits and mindsets of extraordinary people.

A podcast powered by habit nest. Now here's your host, Jennifer Cohen. I'm over the moon excited about our next guest. He is Robert Green. He is my favorite writer. I think you are probably the most prolific writer of art of our time. He's written the 48 laws of power, the mastery, the, I mean, the list goes on and on. Like, I mean, and his latest book is the law, the laws of Human Nature. And I was just saying before we started rolling that each one of your books could actually just be your swan song, and then you can just call it a day. But the reality is, there's every single one of these

books is epic. They amount of care and time and detail. It's impossible to get through as a reader, never mind as a writer of it. Do you hear that all the time? I hear it. It makes me feel very good. There's a lot of pain and effort that goes into the book, but you get the satisfaction when people tell you stories like that, or that they respond to how much work and effort. Because one of the laws and the laws of power is make it look effortless. Don't let people know that you had to work so hard for it.

So I try not to show all of the excruciating TV's labor that went into it. But to recognize it feels very nice, so thank you. I mean, how does anyone not write? I mean, I know that is one of your laws that is to make it feels very nice. So thank you. I mean, how does anyone not write? I mean, it's, I know that is one of your laws that is to make it look effortless. But when a book is how many thought, I mean, this, this book alone is about 600 pages and new one, yeah, and the older ones, like

this one, that one's more like for something or something, maybe okay, fine, 500, like splitting hairs here, but it's also very, it's written in small print and the detail is unbelievable. What was your favorite of all the books that you've written? What has been your favorite book to write? Well, I'd have to say the 48 loss of power because prior to that book, I was living in Los Angeles. I was working in Hollywood and I wasn't very happy. I was kind of depressed, to be honest. I was about 36 years old.

Things weren't quite working out for me. And I was sort of, I knew I wanted to write, but I couldn't figure out what it was. I was meant to write. And then I met a man, Yo Stealthers, who's, you see the name on that? He was a book packageer. And we were in Italy at the time, and he asked me

if I had an idea for a book. And I suddenly improvised what turned into the 48 laws of power. And the reason it's my favorite book is it just totally turned my life around. I wouldn't be here talking to you, obviously, if it weren't for that book. It was also great timing because nowadays, you'd never be able to pull off a book like that.

Publishers wouldn't have gone near it. So it just changed it. It was kind of like, you know, at Disneyland they have Mr. Toad's Wild Ride. It was like this insane ride that you go on. It was kind of like after that book of I was like Mr. Toad's Wild Ride for me, I'm being invited to Italy to meet the ex-president of Italy and Hobnopping. I meet rappers, all these things. This whole world opened up. So just for that reason alone, I'd say it was my favorite book. The art of seduction was probably the most fun book to write. Well, I can imagine why.

And then the new book, The Laws of Human Nature, I feel like all the books, though, help each other out. Like there's a lot of like synergies between them. Like if you read The Laws of Human Nature, understanding why people do what they do and what human nature dovetails nicely into the 48 laws of power, really, right? Because that's how you influence people, like, gain power.

I feel like there's a lot of, there's a lot of, like, interconnectedness, you know. And your background, like you've had 80 jobs before you even started, right? Or something like that. Well, my wife and I once tried to count because she, she's heard, you have that job. And three months later, oh, you have that job? It's one day she said, how many jobs did you actually have? Let me sat down with a piece of paper. I think we got to 60, and then I know, I said, I know there are others that I can't remember

because there were periods in my life. Right. But you know, in college, I had all like 10 different jobs. Then I lived in Europe and I did construction work in Greece. I taught English in Spain, I origin of hotel in Paris, a origin of TV company in London. In New York, I had all these different jobs and journalism. And here in L.A., I worked for a detective agency.

I worked in Hollywood. The Reynec Amher. Yeah, but that's sort of what a writer is supposed to do, because if I'm claiming, I don't have a degree in psychology, but if I'm claiming to know something about what motivates human behavior, about power and human nature, at least those 80 jobs taught me, was like going to graduate school. I had a degree in human behavior because I saw so much shit coming. Yeah, you can say whatever you want.

So much shit, so much manipulation, so much crap. That I, you know, I think I qualified to write these books. Right. So you basically feel like just by pure observation, you were disabled. I was gonna say, what made you feel not just qualified, but did you ever know that you even had an in you to be so, so good?

Well, the other element is I read a lot. So I'm reading a lot of history, philosophy, and psychology. So those two things kind of my experience and that kind of creates the soil from being able to write the book. But, you know, before I wrote the book, I was living in a one bedroom apartment in Santa Monica. And I'm the same person, you know, I would give advice to people and they'd go, who are you? You know, what are you giving me advice for living this? We're one bedroom apartment Santa Monica. Nothing changed. It's just now with the books, everybody listens to me. Right. But my wife who knew me back then, she said, you know, I do remember you would always give me advice. And it was the most, I never heard advice like that. It was the most amazing stuff.

It really helped me. So there was something sort of brewing back then in those early 90s. It just took the book to synthesize all these various parts of my brain. Well, you know, it's funny. That's a good segue into what I was going to talk to you about, right? Because in your latest laws of human nature, you know, do you think that there are people who are just maybe, you said you were always really good at giving advice, there are people that are more innately just more tuned in and keyed into to that type of thing. I mean, there are people who are good to talk to because they're much more self-aware and they're much more empathetic. And so there is that element.

Like you naturally, obviously, were that one of those people that it kind of, you came by it honestly, so to speak, right? Well, it's a good question of, is it nature or nurture? So is it something that is your brain wired that way? There's probably an element to it. So for instance, it's a known fact through studies,

excuse me, that women are more naturally empathetic than men. Is there something about the way they're brain, the way women's brains are? Or is it from the fact that women are socialized to be more attentive to the needs of other people? How do you answer that question? I think probably from my upbringing, from the relationship to my parents, where I wasn't neglected, but I've sort of left alone. And so my way of surviving in this world was to observe people. You know, that was the only way I could feel secure was to understand what so that I wouldn't get hurt.

My parents weren't abusive at all. They were very kind. But, you know, I wasn't abusive at all. They were very kind. But I wasn't getting the attention that I thought I needed. So I had to turn myself into a very keen observer. And my sister is like that as well. So there's something in I think the way we were raised that turned us this way. But I wouldn't write these books if I don't believe that it's something you can learn. So because I'm interested in other people, probably for means of protection and defense, so maybe start from something maybe slightly negative, I spent many years observing, right?

And when you observe and you spend years doing it, it becomes a skill. It's like I can sense people's energy really quickly now. You know, I have a feel for for who they are. I can tell from their bottom of it, the things you can't even verbalize because I've been doing it for so long. So my point in the book is, you know, you may be 30 years old or 40, you know, it's never too late to start because a human being has these incredible innate powers. They call it theory of mind, the ability that we can put ourselves in the shoes of another person and imagine what they're thinking.

And they've demonstrated that infants at the age of six months old demonstrate that they have this theory of mind. No other animal comes close to that, though they say maybe dolphins at some point. But so you have that, you the listener out there, you have that potential, you have those built-in tools to use. It's just a matter of using them. So getting out in more social situations, getting away from your stupid phone and going out in public and dealing with

people and looking at them and observing them and going through exercises that I have in the book. Slowly, you'll get better at it. And it's actually a lot of fun. You know, you spend $20 to go to a movie to get inside the world of somebody else and it's so exciting. Oh, the psych... the psycho killer. Buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh-buh. Other people in your daily life have their stories, have their myths, have their own fantasies. It's just as exciting trying to get into their world as it is to get inside in your daily life have their stories, have their myths, have their own fantasies.

It's just as exciting trying to get into their world as it is to get inside silence of the lambs or whatever movie you want to watch. So it's something you can learn. It's not just you're either born that way or you're doomed to not having this power. Right, I mean, I guess what I was saying that you already had a natural inclination and interest, right?

So it starts with a kernel of interest and curiosity and maybe you were naturally better at it than some. But I think what you're saying, and I tend to agree, is that anything you put attention to, you can get better at. But it's being, putting attention towards it and practicing it over and over again. And you're saying kind of like, I mean, your whole book about, well, not the whole book, but

a lot of what your book talks about. There's a few different things, but is being self-aware, right? Understanding where you came from, because where you came from, it's going to be a good point to know why you are the way you are and having that hyperselva awareness. How does someone who doesn't have that natural inclination gain self-awareness? Well, you have to read the book. I hope so. That's the main point of the whole book. I hope so. That's the main point of the whole book. Right. So you need to become a superior observer of other people,

but it begins by being able to observe yourself. So, you know, it's a process. There's no like quick answer to that. So the first thing is, I try to show you certain things that you need to be aware of. But I think one of the points in my book, particularly in masteries, people don't become good at something unless they like it. And it's very much demonstrated in neuroscience.

When the brain is engaged and excited, suddenly we learn it at a much faster rate, right? If you're interested in learning French, you'll learn it really quickly, as opposed to someone who's forced to learn it. It could take years. So, if you want to, if you're motivated to observe people to look at yourself, then you will start to do it. And so, how do you get motivated? Well, I try to make the point in the book that the number one thing to understand is you are a stranger to yourself. You did not know who you are. You do not know why you act the way you do. You do have no idea what motivates your behavior, why you choose this partner to be with, why

you're interested in this product, why you choose this person to be a politician you vote for. You don't know because 95% of what we do comes from unconscious processes. So if you think about that, it's kind of a slightly frightening. So you know, why did I, you know, this is a very painless, but why did I buy an Audi when I could have bought 20 different other cars? Well, if I think about it, you know, it probably has to do with the fact of, I don't see myself as somebody buys aemarsadis,

but probably I've looked at ads that have influenced me. I've seen other people. It wasn't like me consciously deciding, this is the car I want. It was influenced by all these unconscious factors. And people who do marketing, they know this very well, that what makes you choose to buy a product is emotional reasons

that you're not even aware of. They know all of these unconscious tricks to make you interested in their product. So you walk around, you're like a sleep walker, you don't know why you make the decisions you make. And a very good example is the people you choose for intimate partners in your life. You have really, you can't really explain or verbalize why you're attracted to a person. And oftentimes if you pay close attention, you notice that there'll be certain patterns of people you choose. And sometimes these patterns aren't very healthy. The nutness always, sometimes. Why? Why am I attracted this person who's sort of a narcissist and

isn't going to be a great person to have a relationship. And the second person I choose is exactly the same even though I was heard by the first person. What's going on? I'm challenging you to look at yourself and say, look in the mirror and say, I don't really know who I am. I don't know why I make choices, why I followed this career path, etc. So if you're like in a dark room, it's kind of scary. You're groping, you're tripping over things. You're operating in a dark room. You don't know why you're doing things. You're groping around and you're making mistakes. So you have to be motivated to try and look at yourself and understand

who you are. By virtue of the fact that your ignorance of who you are is causing negative patterns in your life. We all want to improve ourselves. That's why we go to self-help books. That's why you read my book. But you're never going to improve yourself unless you understand who you are, unless you'd look squarely in the eye and admit your flaws, admit the bad patterns in your life. So, it's almost like, you know, alcoholics anonymous. You have to get down underneath and admit, I don't know who I am. And because that's a frightening thought, I have, I'm now motivated to try to make the steps to understand.

Right. And that's what I think the first step is, like you said, like ask yourself the question, like, take a pause and say, why am I doing what I'm doing? What is the reason behind this? Like that initial, I think that even that initial moment or that second of pause makes you maybe a retrain your brain to think a little bit, right? Like, and then you just mentioned something about,

which is what I wanted to talk to you about is the dark side, right? Everyone has these hidden things about them. But you said that when someone has a dark side, they should kind of embrace their dark side because it could be liberating. What do you mean by that exactly? Well, I explained in the book as a chapter,

I want the great psychologist Carl Jung, called the shadow. So you see the moon, you see the front of the moon, and then there's the backside that you never see. Well every person has a dark side of the moon, has a dark side as a shadow side. Where does it come from? It comes from your early childhood. When you were a child, when you were two or three years old, you were this complete ball of energy. You were like a round ball. You experienced all of these emotions. You could be angry. You could even be very resentful. Even hate your parents. The next moment you love them. You could be very aggressive. You could be very peaceful. Children have this, they're a

complete being. They're not, they haven't learned how to control themselves. Right? That's who they are. And then as they get older, they feel pressure. Parents are telling them, come on, you have to behave, you're wearing me out. People, you have to look good for other people. So you feel pressure to kind of alter your behavior to fit in better. Teachers do that.

Peers do that. You get older and older and older. And those complete qualities that you had, some of which could be seen as negative were like repressed, pushed down. But they don't disappear, nothing that you repress ever disappears. It's there, it's lying inside of you, it's latent.

It's an energy that's there all of the time. And what happens is you get older, you feel like you're cut off from part of who you are. You feel like a part of yourself got sought off and is floating behind you and it's painful. And that part of you will come out eventually because it's, there's a lot of tension there from the shadow. It wants to be expressed. So when you're angry, when you're stressful, when things aren't going your way, when you're frustrated, suddenly you'll explode and you'll do things that normally you would never do.

The 65-year-old professor will leave his wife and run off with a 20-year-old student. Welcome to L.A. Actually. Exactly. That's a lot here. Yeah, exactly. So, but that side of you, you know, I'm trying to tell you're a complete person.

It's not good to deny or repress these parts of you. It's better to embrace and accept it and not be a hypocrite. So you're not saying really to act on it. It's just a question of just accepting, um, acknowledging that it's there. Yes, but more than that, it's using that energy. Some more, but you use it towards something more productive, yeah, productive, pro social productive. So for me, I say if I have to do my own self-analysis, I'm a really competitive

person. I hate losing. I hate losing in anything. And it's kind of gross. It can be kind of an ugly trait sometimes. Where do I channel it? I've learned a channel into my work. I want to make I want to sell more books. My friend. I want to make, I want to sell more books, my friend. I want to make a great book. I want to have a lot of success. So I poured into my work and there's nothing wrong with that because I'm actually creating some value for society. Right.

If you feel very angry about the way the world is, pour your energy into working for a just cause, for justice in this world. And don't just sit there and spew and get resentful and get on the internet and spew hatred. Actually do something, pour that energy into something productive. If you're an artist, you're a filmmaker or a writer, take that anger, angry energy that we all have and put it into your work. I have a lot of also, I do have a lot of anger, I think from my years in Hollywood, I kind of resent people who are your work. I have a lot of also, I do have a lot of anger. I think from my years in Hollywood, I kind of resent people who are hypocrites, I don't like hypocrites.

And I poured all that into my books. I express it in my books. There's a layer of anger in the 48 laws of power, but I don't, as explosive as control of its channeled, channeled that energy, channeled that dark energy into something productive, because it's very, very powerful. And the other thing I would say is we admire like rock stars, like a David Bowie or a Madonna. And we admire them because they're more authentic. They're displaying their shadow, and they're not afraid of it.

And we go, wow, that's like a real human being. We're secretly attracted to people like that who aren't so controlled and repressed. Whereas we're kind of repulsed by people who've like tamped down their shadow. And I talked in the book about Richard Nixon as somebody who was very uncomfortable with himself. And it made other people kind of uncomfortable.

If you love the Habits and Hustle podcast and are looking to add more podcasts to your weekly routine, I have the podcast for you. I know you're going to love the Millionaire University Podcast because they dive deep into how to actually run a successful business. So you can escalate from just breaking even to making your business and profits thrive.

Or how they like to say it, learn how to graduate from millionaire university rich, not broke. And this is because you don't need to go into debt spending four plus years on a degree to succeed when you have all the information at your fingertips. So if you're ready to tune in, I personally suggest starting off with episode two, which is the only three things every business needs, or even episode 24, which is a 10-step blueprint to gain clarity and reach your goals. The Millionaire University podcast is hosted by Justin and Tara Williams, who actually

started their businesses from Square One One and have very valuable experience. They hit lows and dug themselves out of debt and want to share the lessons they've learned with other aspiring entrepreneurs. So don't wait, now is a time to turn your business into a reality, by listening to the Millionaire University podcast. New episodes drop every Monday and Thursday, So find the millionaire university on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Keep coming back. You got plenty of space.

Oof, not how you would have done that. You like working with people you can rely on, like USAA, who has helped guide the military community for the past 100 years. USAA, get a quote today. You know, you say, and I'm curious what you think about this, right? Because there's a couple of different points between the 48 laws of power in this book. You're saying people who express themselves, right? But one of your things was, and one of, and I think it was 48

laws of power, was to be kind of like, to kind of be flamboyant in a way, to stand out, right? That's one of your points. So what point is someone being authentic and that's who they are versus putting on a show or an act because they know they're being somewhat manipulative because they know like a Madonna, for example, or that if they don't stand out, they'll just kind of like fade into the background.

Well, the quality of being a kind of a show off is something that you either have or don't have. It's hard to put it on, it's hard to fake it. You know, what you can do is you can learn, you sense when you're a child, when you're eight years old, that when I'm dramatic, when I make a show of something, when I have a tantrum, people pay attention to me. And then you learn if you're a manipulative type or you're power hungry, learn how to use that energy. Maybe you become an actor, maybe you become a politician, or whatever, and you channel it into that,

and you learn to exaggerate it. You learn to use it for effect. But I don't think you can turn an introvert into someone who likes to show off and be an exhibitionist. I think it's very difficult because you have to kind of have pleasure and enjoy that element of getting that kind of attention. And not everybody has that. You know, so the art of seduction is all about that. The art of seduction, I talk about the nine types of seducers. Right.

And one of them is the type that we were talking about here. And what I'm trying to say is, you out there, the listener, you fit one of these nine archetypes. It's sort of who you are, you were wired that way. And the game is to be aware of who you are, oh, I'm a siren, I'm a rake, I'm a charmer, and then to exaggerate to bring it out more. And, you know, I talk a lot, my view of humans is we are all actors. None of us go around in our social lives just being who we are. We don't tell people, oh, you don't look so good today, you know, oh, your screenplay sucks. We are the opposite, right? We learn early on to act. Some people are better actors than others, but you need to be an actor in life, and I don't

think there should be anything negative attached to it. It's just your question is, how do we know whether it's authentic or not? I think you can feel it to a degree. So when you see a performer and they're giving everything, there's a sense of, you know, it feels real. Yeah, you do. Some people, there are people, there are rock stars, and musicians, or actors, where it does feel like they're kind of having to fake it. I mean, we can sense the difference. When someone's controlled, when something's contrived, you feel. Right. Yeah. I mean, you know, now we're circling right back again to human nature, you're talking a lot

about how we're all some level. We're all narcissistic to some capacity, right? But I found it interesting. You're saying that the deep narcissists tend to end up being quite successful in life. They can be. Right. They'd be like a CEO of a technology company because so is it because tell me well why don't you talk about that a little bit I'm interested in that why why do you think they can be because well okay so to

do that I have to explain where why we are all narcissists I'll be trying to make it as brief as possible you don't have to be brief at all I love having you here I don't want you to ever go okay it's be as long winded as possible okay don't tell me to ever go. Okay. Okay. V is long, winded as possible. Okay, don't tell me that you're gonna regret saying that. I will not trust me. Well, I'm trying to say to the reader of this book, get off your high horse, stop saying, oh, it's the other person who's aggressive.

It's the other person who's got envy, not me. I love that when you said that. It's always that person who is that person. Yeah, no, you are implicated. We're all cut from the same cloth. We all have the same flaws. We all have the same tendencies. We all have selfish narcissistic tendencies. We are all to some degree self-absorbed.

So get over this. The person who says, oh no, I'm not a narcissist. It's the biggest fucking narcissist of them all. Because they're singling themselves out as if they're superior. There's a sure sign of narcissism. Where does it come from? It comes from the fact that when we were children,

we had a lot of attention. Most of us, not all of us, had a lot of attention from our parents. And then a point is reached when we're four years old, maybe a little earlier, where they start withdrawing that attention because they realize we have to be independent, because they have other siblings to attend to, because they have other things, so you're not getting that intense attention that you got from the mother or even the father early on.

And for it's a very painful moment, you have to start to learn to be independent. And the process that we go through is we develop a self, an image of ourselves. It's almost like you're looking at yourself and it's projected on a wall. And that self has good qualities. You love that self. It has, you know, it has things that you're comfortable with. It has certain tastes and desires that you who you are and you like that. And so in those moments when you feel pain, when you feel abandoned, when you don't feel you get your attention, you are able to withdraw into yourself and not feel so bad.

You're able to get the love from yourself, you don't depend on other people. You're not aware of that process because it all happened unconsciously. But psychologists have demonstrated, have cataloged it. It's very, it's a very real phenomenon. And so slowly, unconsciously, you develop this idea of yourself, this kind of ideal version of who you are.

And as you get older, this tendency gets stronger and stronger. You like other people who share your own values. You like other people who flatter you. You like people who like you. These are all signs of your self-absorption of your narcissism. There's nothing negative about it. Stop judging yourself. Every single person you know has these tendencies.

Even Saint Teresa had these tendencies, all right? It's so true though, when you think about it, right? Like, we tend to like the people who like us the most, right? That's just what we do, right? Like, if someone flatters, they'll say, oh, you're so great, you're so nice, you're so this, you're so that because it makes you feel good, you want to be around that person obviously. Right. And look at social media, who do you, who do you glom on to, you glom on to the people of the same values, the same ideas as you, because they're like mirrors

to yourself. Mirrors to yourself. You know, you're looking at yourself when you look at them and they're in nice feelings and they're good ideas or you're good ideas as well. So you're a narcissist, just admitted. Now, the deep narcissist. Some people are what I call deep narcissists and they had a childhood that was different. They come usually from some maybe a broken home. There are two things where things can become dysfunctional. A, the parent neglects them or is abusive and the in love and affection that they expect is actually the opposite. All right, so they're not able to develop that self that is able to love because they feel

they actually hate themselves. They're inner self you're saying, yeah or. Or B, the parent overwhelms them with attention and suffocates them to the point where they're not able to develop an independent self. Either way, that self image that we come to love is aborted, it doesn't grow, it's not organic. And so when the child reaches five or six years old, in those moments of pain, when they're not getting the love they need, instead of turning inward, they have to do it, turn outward, they have to become

a performer, they have to act out to get attention, they have to throw a tantrum, they have to be extremely dramatic, and sometimes that drama is very exciting. We've seen children like that who are always performing, they're very cute, they're very charming, they know how to get attention through their wit, through their antics, right? Okay? But it comes, it can come from an inner emptiness, they're acting out, they have to, it's the only way they can get the love and attention they need. So I compare it to a thermostat that you have in your in your in your brain. So let's say there's a 50% mark right in the middle. That's where half of your attention is to yourself and the other half is towards other people. And the higher you go up on

that towards a hundred is the more you're capable of putting yourself into the thoughts and minds of other people getting outside of yourself. The lower down you go, the more self-absorbed you become. side of yourself. The lower down you go, the more self-absorbed you become. So we naturally, I call us functional narcissists. We're able to function in this world where narcissists, but we can function well. And we're normally at that halfway point. Sometimes we rise above because we're very interested in people. Maybe we fall in love or maybe because of work. We really have to focus on people. We can rise to 60 to 70. But then when we're depressed, we kind of go down and we get more self-absorbed, we go down to 30 and 40, but that thermostat will raise us up so that we

never get too self-absorbed because we'll pay a price for that. Deep narcissists can never get above that mark. They're always down below. They don't have that thermostat. They're always locked below. They don't have that thermostat. They're always locked inside of themselves. And as they get older, they have to become more and more dramatic to get that attention. Now, that could become a very positive trait or it seemed to be because it can be charismatic. Right? So you learned as a child when you were five or six years old to be very dramatic to get attention.

Now, imagine you've been doing that for twenty for fifteen seventeen years and you're in your twenties. You're like a master at getting attention, right? And you have this kind of energy where I need love from you people. I need love from you. And it's very seductive. And people will give you that loving energy. You're a you're a master at magnet at attracting that energy, right? But it comes from an inner emptiness. And at some point, it can turn against you. But you look at people, I worked, I was on the board of directors

for a company called American Apparel. Oh, I've got American Apparel. Yeah. Yes. The founder of it was a admirer of my books, etc. Shocking. Yeah. But he, you know, I love him, he was a great person, but he was an incredible deep narcissist.

Right? Right. I take your word for it. Yeah. Trust you. Trust you, okay. And so, but because of that, he had incredible charisma, and everybody was attracted to him forward.

But then there was a very dark side to it, which ended up being his undoing. We can see our current president as somebody who is definitely a deep narcissist. I would say Elon Musk, and it's been demonstrated to be profiles. My friend Neil Strauss did a profile of him. He's definitely has very strong narcissistic tendencies, and he's very dramatic and very charismatic and it's a source of his power, but it's also a great weakness.

A lot of great artists are deep narcissists, but they're able to put it into their work and create great things. So that's their way of dealing with it. It's funny, you say the word cares. A lot of times, I notice when that's behavior, like Donald Trump or whoever, to me, that's not, I don't see charisma.

I just see like, it's annoying. And it's like, I don't, I wouldn't see it. It's uncomfortable, because you feel that they're like, they're just unraveling or they're trying too hard. Like, I think that that quality of trying too hard is like the opposite of charismatic in a way. Well, yeah, I'm not saying everybody was a deep narcissist.

It's charismatic. But no, but I know what you're saying, but I'm saying it builds up that kind of personality where people are magnets towards it, right? I mean, a classic example that I use in the art of seduction is Marilyn Monroe She was an orphan. She came from a terrible background. She was completely neglected as a child a lot of great actresses have that same Right a lot of act. I think a lot of Hollywood is like that Yeah, definitely, you know, and then when you when you peel the the layers of the onions

That's when you really find the the wounds exactly the onions, that's when you really find the wounds. The wounds, the wounds. Exactly. That's what I mean, that's why I tend to, I know what you're talking about, especially where we live, right? Yes, we're in the heart of it. We're in the heart of it. You see what people show you on the outside.

It's very different than what really happens on the inside. Right. And so, and that's another thing you were talking, what you said, which I really kind of keyed into was pick people with their character, not because they're charismatic or because of intelligence,

because character is the most important thing, right? And I think a lot of times we, that's how we get ourselves in trouble, right? Because we pick people because we're drawn to that bright, shiny light, right? So, you know, your fate in life is that we're a social animal. Your fate is tied with the people you choose to associate with. There's no getting around that. And you're either associating with people of good quality, of good character, or people of negative qualities, a negative character. And the difference between how you make those choices will be the

difference between being happy or those choices will be the difference between being happy or unhappy, being successful or failing in life. So I know I've done consulting work with a lot of very powerful people in business and sports and entertainment. And their choices of the wrong business partner is why they come to me 90, not 90, over half the time. Right. Right. Right. time. Right. Right? I thought this man was, he was so smart, had great resume, great ideas.

And then the next thing I know, he's like stolen the company from me. Or the next thing I know, he was actually really stupid and he made really bad decisions. And they have suffered their company who's destroyed, they lost a lot of money, their reputations are ruined. It can cause real trauma. Right. These kinds of bad toxic relationships, bad choices. So what is the root of the problem?

The root of the problem is human nature, where animals, we judge things based on appearances. It takes effort to stand back and say, maybe the appearance, maybe the smile, maybe the mass that people are wearing isn't reality. We're not primed for that. Naturally, we see someone laugh and we see someone liking our jokes. We see someone saying the right things. And we respond to it. We don't have that cynical or that mistrust gene that says, maybe it's not all what it seems. So if somebody, we're hiring somebody in there, they've got a witty charming personality and a good resume. We hire them, but they have bad character.

Now, what do I mean by bad character? Character is something that you can measure as strength or weakness. It's not a moral judgment. It's a strong character or a weak character. So there's the kind of metal that they call it's a tensile quality. That metal can bend, but it doesn't break. That's how they design jets to have that kind of metal. And that's a kind of strength. It's a really strong metal that can bend a little bit. It never breaks. That's the kind of quality you want

inside of a person. You want to judge their inner strength and what do I mean by that? Okay, well here's a few good barometers. How do people handle stress? Under stress, that metal shows its weaknesses. So somebody, you hire somebody and they seem brilliant in everything. Then the shit hits the fan, there's pressure. And suddenly they could become hysterical, they make bad choices, they could become extremely selfish. You I never saw that side of them, because they were hiding it and only stress reveals it. Stress reveals character, just as power, a position of power reveals character.

When somebody is rising to the top, they'll be all charming and wonderful, then they get power and suddenly they turn into a raging asshole. Because the power is gone to their head. You didn't see that until they've gotten to the position of power. That's their character being revealed, but you can see signs of it early on and how they treat other people, how they treat the people below them. Okay? So pay attention to the little things that people reveal, like how organized is their desk, how organized are they always late to they get things in on time, to they treat other people who they don't have to treat well,

to they treat them well, everybody in the company. You know, I talked to them one of my books about Louis XIV, he would treat everybody in the palace of a sigh with incredible kindness, even the cooks, even the maids, etc. You want people like that who are able to treat people who they don't have to be good to, but they're nice to, that reveals something about them. Okay? How do they handle criticism? Can they take criticism or do they wither up and become whiny, weepy little kids, you know,

get all defensive, that shows you that inner strength, that tensile quality. I had a Ryan holiday, probably heard of Ryan. Yes, I was on a book of his over there. The new one? Yeah, stillness. Yeah, stillness. Yeah, that's good. I haven't read it yet.

I've been too busy with your stevey thousand books. Oh, so I love it. You'll get. Now, this is, I'm more than happy to be busy with your stuff. Anyway, Ryan was my assistant years ago on one of my books. I'm kind of helped him get the career that he has now. But the thing that made Ryan stand out was I could criticize him about his work in a very pragmatic way.

He never took it personally. I was shocked because of my ideas sometimes as younger people, they tend to get very sensitive. I know I was an option. No, he was a perfect gentleman, he understood it and he used that information to get better. That's a son of... Constructive criticism, he took it. Yes, a lot of people are very,

that's a great way of seeing someone's true character, right? They're not like flimsy and just break down because you're criticizing them. Right. So that shows inner strength. Right. You want to find people like that to hire, to even be your intimate partner because it will, you know, you'll avoid all that unnecessary ugly drama. You'll get a long better. You'll have, you know, an easier life. Everything will go smoother if you make the right choices So when you meet someone and you're in that position where you have to make a choice

Think first of their character. How can I gauge it and don't get you know seduced by their appearances? Right. No, I think that's a great that's a great point and I think it's very true And I think a lot of times though, people, you know, it's hard in the moment, right? Because you get so like, you get so like engulfed into like how they're charming and the nice and flattering. And but I think the character is a huge one.

And yeah, I think it's a great one. The other thing we were talking about is self-opinion, right? Because in your book, if you have to basically, I feel it's, I don't know if it's manipulative, it is, but I feel like that's what it is. When you have to cater to how someone feels about themselves, I really like this part. Like, it's like, for example, if you have a certain opinion

of yourself, the way I would influence that or penetrate that is if I cater to that. Just how it would be like if you are with somebody who has a really low opinion of themselves, if you're too nice to them, they won't like you, right? Because they're used to being treated badly. Right. Which I think again, like, why I think you're so, why I really love your writing is because, I think you really tap into really what the non-verbal cues that people really tell a lot more with. It's not just what because they say this and because they act like that. It's all the behind, the nuance in someone's behavior

that you really kind of get someone's true character and how people really think and how you really influence of get someone's true character and how people really like think and how you really influence them. Sorry. No, no, no, it's very well put. I mean, think of it this way with words I could lie. I could say anything. Right. I could say I am the greatest basketball player ever lived. You should see me. I scored 70 points. I played Michael Jordan, one-on going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say,

I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to say, I'm going to, reveals how you really are feeling, not your words. So pay attention to this other language.

I call it a second language, the language of actions, of patterns of behavior, and of nonverbal communication, because they're eloquent. They actually tell you the truth. Right. And then how do you? So if someone has a bad opinion of themselves, because like we're talking earlier, people's natural inclination is to be flattering and kind. Right, and then how do you so if someone has a bad bad opinion of themselves right because Like we're talking early people's natural inclination is to be flattering and kind and tell them all these things

What happens if when you do that like there's been times when like you know I know when men do this all the time right they try to like get with a girl or whatever and that girl has such baggage and whatever And like they're like I don't understand why she doesn't like me. Like I sent her flowers, I called her on time. I did this, I did that. And like nothing. And she's dating some jerk off. Because that girl's used to being treated that way. It's just a no-one different. But how do you figure that out early on to kind of, I hate to say it, but to influence

and to kind of get what you want? Well, there are clearly signs of it. I mean, if you paid attention to that woman, she would show signs of great insecurities. I mean, you can't really hide that. You would, you know, and by the fact that you're sending her flowers and she's not responding, there's already a sign that something is going on. Exactly. But it's all a matter of paying attention to people because they do reveal it. So, most people have a positive self-opinion, but I'd say 10% or 20%, maybe more. We all have a negative opinion.

I was going to say you think it's that low? Well, I think that we all have a negative opinion of ourselves to some extent. Right. But most of it is relatively positive. And some even people with a negative opinion, they manage to turn it into a virtue. They manage to say, everyone has screwed me. I've been a victim. Everybody hates me. And it's their way of feeling kind of justified

and superior to others. I'm a better victim. I've suffered more than other people. Therefore, you know, that makes me kind of something higher. Right. Superior in a way. Because you don't want to go, nobody likes going around in life,

just totally hating yourself. So you turn even your, the qualities you don't like into something almost negative. I'm almost positive. But let's just say, more people than not do have a high self opinion. And studies, psychological studies have demonstrated this.

So when it comes to our intelligence, we tend to rate it higher than it actually is. We think our IQ is higher than it actually is. When it comes to our autonomy that we make decisions on our own, we tend to have a higher opinion. We think we're more rational than we actually are when it comes to what was the other extractor. Excuse me. Emotion?

No, no. Rational. Oh, yeah. Goodness. Morality. Morality. We kind of have an image of ourselves that's better than the actual truth. We think we're a little more sane than we actually are. Those are fairly universal traits in people. Some people not, I agree, so we will have that lower element, but you'll find most

people will rate themselves higher in those areas, and then there'll be individual qualities where people will think, I'm a rebel, I hate all authority, and that's their self-opinion, right? They think of themselves that way. You have to gauge people's self-opinion, and if you cross it, if somehow you make people feel that they're not so smart, if you make people feel that they're really not acting on their own willpower, that other people are influencing them, if you make them feel that they're not really that good, if you make them feel that they're not as much of a rebel as they think they are, you've created an enemy, a secret enemy. They may smile and say, oh, yeah, but now you've got, you've turned somebody into a potential enemy. They don't, you know, a point has been crossed and you're never going to, probably will never repair that because that itself opinion is tied into their happiness, to their feeling of who they are.

Challenging that is deeply, deeply stirring up insecurities from deep within. You do not ever want to do that, right? No, absolutely not. So you can call that manipulative, but you can also look at it in another way. We go through life. What is the biggest human need besides food and shelter and basic love from protection of our parents? What would you say the biggest need is?

Besides love, influence, I don't know. Our biggest need. Food, shelter, happy connection, I would say. When that be? Well, I, I, I, as a wrong answer here. No, it's not a wrong answer. It's a wrong answer,

but I would say it's the desire to be validated to have recognition. Oh, I can go that, of course, that's your whole book. Right there. Exactly. Recognition. So think of how little in life you get that recognition. You're out with meeting someone, you with friends, everyone's in their own phone, everyone's

in their own world. No one's actually paying attention to who you are. But if you actually meet somebody who actually listens to what you said and actually validates your opinion, actually makes you feel that you're really a good person. It's pretty rare in life. You don't get that feeling very often. The kind of quality, individualized attention. People are hungry for it. And you don't have to fake it. Everybody has good qualities. Everybody has decent qualities. More from our guests, the first a few words from our

sponsor. So everybody loves payday. But loving a payroll provider? Yeah, that could be a little weird. Still small businesses across the country love running payroll with gusto. Gusto automatically files and pays your taxes. It's super easy to use and you can add benefits and management tools to help take care of your team and keep your business safe. You can sign, store, and organize employee documents

all online, and you can choose from hundreds of benefit plans to fit nearly any budget. Plus, listeners get three months free when they run their first payroll. So if you want a better payroll in 2020, now is the time to start. Try a demo and test it out at gusto.com slash hustle. That's gusto.com slash hustle for three months free when you run your first payroll. You know, it's interesting you're saying this right now about recognition. I'm not just because it's in your book, but I did a whole podcast before you about what the key thing to employ a morale in a company is, and it's employees having, it's all about recognition.

The whole idea of corporate culture is based on someone feeling that they matter and that they're recognized for their work. Or they're, yeah, it's true. It's a deep need. It's also need to feel that you are an individual. You're not just a cog in a machine. You're not just a piece that people are using. You actually matter. Your ideas matter,

etc. We're hungry for that kind of attention. So if you're able to supply that, you're giving something very rare to people and it's very positive and you will then have room. Now, you can call it manipulation. I tend to say you can have influence over them. And we all want influence. If you can't influence your children, you can't get them to stop their negative irritating behavior. Right. You feel terrible trying to be crazy.

You know, kids. I've got two kids. Oh, okay. I totally agree. Because I was reading a couple different things about you, about your books and stuff, and people are like, it's so manipulative. It's actually not manipulative. It's actually the truth. It's being real, because everyone needs at some level to have influence. Forget about it, if you want to climb a corporate ladder.

If you have children, you have to have influence over them. If you have a spouse or partner, you want to have influence over them. If you have a spouse or partner, you want to have influence. Exactly. Influence is not a bad thing to have influence. It's not like a bad word. And people take it at such. Yeah. And I, so I agree with you.

I think that's obviously, it's important to have that at any level. Yeah, I mean, you know, an extended to work. If you can't get people interested in your idea, how you ever gonna write that book or make that movie or create that, that, you know, that business that you wanna found, you have to be able to get people excited

or interested in you. And a lot of that depends on your knowledge of human nature, what motivates people. So if you present an idea to a potential investor, and it's all about you and your great idea, and you present an idea to a potential investor and it's all about you and your great idea and you pay no attention to them, you're actually turning them off. You're actually saying to the person you're addressing, well what is my interest in that? Why should I fund that? You know, I don't it's all

about you really. And instead you want to make it about them and their self interest and what they're going to get out of it and how they are, and how great this is going to be for them. You turn things around and suddenly the game changes. Absolutely. I agree with you. And what I was going to say to that is, when you want anything from somebody, you don't give them your, you don't say to them, you need to help me because I, I, I, I, I, you are going to find what makes them,

what, what, what, what kind of is that thing about what they need and what they want. Right. Because people tap into that much quicker, right? Right. Vitamin water just dropped a new zero sugar flavor called with love. Get the taste of raspberry and dark chocolate for the all warm, all fuzzy, all self-care, zero self-doubt you. Grab a with love today. Vitamin water, zero sugar, nourish every you. Vitamin water is a registered trademark of glass O.

I wanted to talk to you about a part of your book about envy because again I a lot of these things like I think are so, so true in like it's a most it's actually it's human nature. People are envious even at any level at so many different levels. And you like break them down into like these four. So of if we all have envy right because that's kind of what we all have envy, right? Because that's kind of what we talk about. A, number one, like how we can get away from that and switch it around to be more positive. So like, how did you come up with like for the,

the four, the leveler, the self-entitled slacker, the status fee and the attack, and the attack, the tatcher, right? Those are the four common ones. They're more, but. Those are the four, right? Those are the four common ones. I think they're more, but. Those are the four common ones. Okay. The four common ones.

Which one is the most dangerous? Do you have a... Well, they all can be pretty dangerous. They are. The attacker can be often the most dangerous. They're examples of people who've actually literally murdered the people that they attach to.

OK, well, I talked about that. But we're naturally envious. That's a natural instinct, right, to be envious of people around us in our peer group. Well, the human brain functions by comparing and contrasting. So when we receive sensory information, something new in our eye, see something, the brain instantly compares it to things that we've seen in the past. And we're a social

animal. So when it comes to relationships with people, our brain, which is so focused on comparing, is actually continually comparing ourselves to other people. So we do the same thing in our social life. What do they have that I don't have? How is there a career better than their my career? How are their children better or worse than mine? You know, on and on and on. We're continuing. If you stopped and were honest with yourself, which you're not usually, and looked at yourself, how often you're comparing yourself to what other people are doing, you'd be shocked at how often that thought is crossing your mind. Oh, absolutely.

That's why I wanted to bring it up is because, especially in today's time with social media, it's, I think it's like rampant now, right? Because I think that all the anxiety and depression levels are so skyrocketed. They're so high because you see glimmers of people's life on Instagram and whatever it is, Facebook, whatever it is, TikTok now, and whatever the platform is.

How will do your kids? Four and six. Oh, they're still. They're still young. But my six year old actually knows what TikTok is, which is sad to me, right? Because I think it's just perpetuating this problem, 15, 20 years ago, not to age myself, but we didn't have this. It was more dull in our surroundings.

Now, anytime you touch your phone, you have that ping of envy, because you see someone in a nicer trip, more money than you, and I think know, why, or, and I think what you said, what this was another thing I thought was so, so true is you're also a lot of times envy as a people in your direct space, right? Yeah. Because like, why are they more successful than me? We've all been there. And that's why when people are like, ah, it doesn't sound nice, but it's the truth. That's we all do it.

And why can't we not talk about it? Right. It would be much better to be honest about it. Right. It's true. And so what I'd like to know, when you said, if you feel this way, why not, like you can reverse engineer it a little bit, right? Like when you get stuck in that moment, think of people who are less, like, who have less

than you. Right. Right. What are the other things that you were mentioning on that? Well, and so that, in that case, you know, normally you're comparing yourself to people who have more. Right. Why not compare yourself to people who have less? So I had a stroke and it was pretty awful experience.

It still is pretty awful. But, you know, and I look at the people who were running and so I, God damn it. What am I missing? But then I go to the hospital for therapy and I see people who are running and so I got down. What am I missing? But then I go to the hospital for therapy and I see people who are a lot worse than me. And boy does that make me feel appreciative that I'm alive, that my brain is still functioning. So you can compare yourself.

There are millions, billions of people on the planet who have less than you. Why not compare themselves to you and feel grateful for what you have instead of feeling envious of what other people have that you don't have. The other thing is, so instead of feeling like you want to hurt somebody who has more than you, which is sort of the impulse that envy has, most of us don't act on that impulse to hurt. Some people do and you have to be aware of them. They're very dangerous, but

instead of comparing yourself to others and feeling a little bit angry at them, why not use the fact that people are doing better than you as a spur to motivate you to get rise to their level? Emulate them, try and compete, try and make. Instead of trying to act like you're on their level with things that you post on the internet, why don't you actually learn some skill and actually found a business or write a book or create something that will make them envious of you. Turn it into a positive competitive instinct. Because ambition and competitiveness is not necessarily a negative thing if you channel it the right way. The other thing is you tend to feel the

called Shodden Freude. Yeah, I know. I love that. Shodden Freude's amazing. Well, Shodden Freude means that you actually feel a little bit excited when other people have bad things happen to them. It kind of makes you feel good. It's a secret, you know, you never admit it. Right, you're a little happy when something bad happens to somebody that's doing really well, or your envious of. Right. But so I talk in the book about the opposite feeling, which would be actually feeling joy when somebody else has success. Now, I know that might sound kind of polyanish, but you know, I think I maintain the book that we all have a higher self, that we have a self that wants to be better.

We want to feel empathetic, we want to feel that we're noble, we want to feel that we're basically on the right side of things, that we have the potential to create something great, that we're disciplined, etc. It's a part of ourselves that we that wants to come out. And the ability to actually not just fake your happiness that someone had some good news, but to actually feel their joy, feel it, is it really, may you feel better about yourself and that other person can sense it. So, you know, I've had the personal experience with this because I've had some success with my books, obviously, and prior to that, I didn't have much success.

So in all 80 jobs. In all 80 jobs. I had a moderate success, but nothing to write all about. Wow. So I had suddenly received quite a lot of envy from my friends. And I could sense that rare person when I told them, you know, that I just sold my book or look at, it's doing really well, they would actually be really happy for me. They'd be very excited. And I hope that is a really great human quality. That shows, we're talking about

character, that shows the generosity of spirit. And you will actually feel better about yourself instead of feeling joy in people's pain you actually either felt empathy for their pain and didn't feel joy or you actually felt real joy when they're successful You know, so these are things ways to turn around that envy. I have other ideas. I can't remember the moral It's okay. You don't have to remember all of them. It's okay. The book is a that I'm a 600 pages. Oh, I know I don't do remember one more Okay, go ahead. I remember one more. Okay, do okay, go ahead. I remember one more. So you think people are doing really well and you're really envious,

but if you got closer to them, you'd realize that they're actually as miserable as you are in some way. I know, I love that you said that. It's so true, right? Because I think that's one of the points that you said that I was like, that's why I kind of smirked when I read through it, because it's true.

Like again, like when you peel back the layer of anybody, everything always looks, someone once said to me, the grass is always greener until you see their water bill. Right? Because it's true, right? Like it always looks so beautiful. It's out of place to LA. It's 100% right?

It's an LA added spinus. But it's so true. Like everyone always puts, everything looks nice on the outside. And you never, ever know until you get into the intricacies of someone's life, like how it really is. And I know for my own personal experience, it's happened with me a lot where, you know, I'm no, I'm no, you know, like I'm like everyone else, like you said, I have envy too. And I, when I, when, whenever I get into a situation where that I'm like close to that human being for more than three and a half seconds, I'm like,

I'm like, oh my god, I'm so happy with my life. It's the best way to not be envy us anymore. It's to actually get close to the people that you are envy us too. But I don't think social is helping it. Even when we know, I think, we know that on a more practical realistic level, that's what's happening. We all know we all post the best two seconds, of whatever, we don't post the fights in the misery and we all use filters and schmilters. And then, yeah, even though we know it's all like a ruse, we still feel this way. I know. I know it's very interesting.

Isn't that why is that? We can't help it. That's the whole point I started in the beginning. We can't help ourselves. We can. We're animals. We're wired a certain way. We have these forces in it. They're unconscious. And they're just triggered. Envy is like a trigger thing in the brain. You can't control it.

You put certain circumstances. You hear certain news about people and they're just triggered. Envy is like a trickery thing in the brain, you can't control it. You put certain circumstances, you hear certain news about people, and you're gonna feel envy, no matter what. Right. And so, you know, the example that we were just talking about that I used in the book was Aristotle and NASA's the wealthiest man in the world. How could you not feel envy?

He had 12 yachts. He was married to Jacqueline Kennedy. He had everything. So did you read the story of his life? He was the most miserable son of a bitch that ever. He was so unhappy and he made everybody else unhappy around him. So, you know, don't go around envy people just because they have money or nice cars or a lot of success. They could be a lot of a lot happier than you are. Oh, 100%. And like, that's why I find it interesting.

That's what I found so interesting is even when we know better, we still can't help ourselves. It's a crazy thing. I mean, when you're saying now, you know, when you've had this stroke, I mean, you look at the people who can run, but when you take a step back and look at the people who can't even, you know, walk, right? It puts things in perspective. I guess having first taken that pause and getting some perspective. It's not easy. It's fair. Exactly. And I know it's not easy because I feel it every day when I see people running up and down my street. I have to have to work on it and I have to run. I said, I get that paying of envy and I go, wait a minute.

Remember those other people you've heard about? Remember this person who died, that person who got permanent brain damage, blah, blah, blah. So you know, that's right. And also, like you were saying, like when you had that, when you've had the success now after 48 laws of power, your life basically changed.

How did you respond when you saw people who didn't give you the time of day, right? All of a sudden they're like, nice to your face, they love you, they want to be involved, they'll listen to anything you have to say now. Well, it usually was the opposite to be honest with you. It was real, I would think. The envy was like, people friends were suddenly like,

oh, the 48 laws of power, what an ugly book. I didn't realize Robert was like that. Oh, he's just selling out. He's just trying to make money. How are you selling out? How was I to sell out of a book? I don't know. I don't know.

You know, I mean, so I received the other end of it. But I didn't let that, I can be honest. I can admit my own negative qualities and I'm happy to do that. But on that level, I understood where they're coming from because one of the chapters in the 48 Laws of Power is about envy. It's called never appear too perfect. If you're too perfect, people are going to hate you and they're going to envy you. I understand it, so I don't take it personally. I do wish my friends were more generous, but I understand why they're not,

because I've felt that first, my feeling before as well. That's the point that we've started with our conversation was, if you understand yourself, you're in a better place to understand other people. So if you understand that you are prone to envy, and why you're prone to envy, when other people are doing that towards you. You can be a little more forgiving.

First of all, you can recognize the signs of envy because they're very hidden and hard to discern, but also you can understand people and maybe not get angry or resentful about it. Right. Because you say a lot that a lot of it has to do with how people respond to you. A lot of it is because of their own baggage. Don't take it so personally. It's not about you.

It's about them and what's happened with them in their life. Right. But in the moment, it's kind of, you know, it hits you in a certain way. Why do you think, you know, mostly I think, you know, 48 laws of power, it became like a Bible to like the hip-hop community, for example. Why do you think, why do you think it hits so hard even for just like just to stay on that in that in that in that community? Why do you think it became such a big

prolific Bible, so to speak for the hip-hop community? Well, you know, I can't really totally explain it. They would have to explain it, but I've got an idea. You're pretty smart. I think I think you got more than an idea. Well, it came out at the right time, pretty much the late 90s. And among artists in the world,

nobody was more exploited than African-American musicians, historically in the United States. They were in the worst position that some of our greatest musicians ever in the history of the United States, think of all the great jazz grates, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, on and on. They were incredibly exploited, even people like Louis Armstrong or Ella Fitzgerald, immensely talented people who made decent living, but most of their money went to the publishers, the music business, right?

And so hip-hop artists in the 90s were beginning to feel this, were beginning to resent it, they began to understand the mechanics of the business and how deeply they were exploited. And it was even getting worse in the 90s with all of the big record labels, kind of conglomerates. That's the worst business of all. Hollywood looks like kindergarten compared to the music industry. They are ravenous sharks that they exploit like hell. And so beginning with people like Tupac, et cetera,

a sort of mentality was evolving where we wanna own our own music. We want to be entrepreneurs. We don't want you to be taking all our money. We can be doing other things, making having a brand, selling products, starting our own business. But we also want to own some of our music. And so they were beginning to get involved in that element of the business.

And people would tell me, God bless his soul because he's no longer with his Chris Leidy, who was 50 cents manager early on, and was a manager for a lot of other great artists like P. Diddy. He told me that, you know, when he first got into the music business and in the mid-90s,

he was shocked at how ruthless and awful people were, and 50 himself told me that nothing could prepare him. The streets of Southside Queens were he was selling crack. That's a pretty ugly environment, but he said it was nothing compared to like, interscope record. So the book helped them. It helped them understand these are the laws of power that people use. Yet other people who do the work but always take the credit. You know, always say less than necessary. Never outshine the master. These were certain things that they could learn and it would help them navigate this really dangerous environment and understand some of the manipulations that were going on against them. So, I think because it came out at that time, it resonated very deeply.

So, sort of a bit of luck, you know, the timing was right. If it had come out earlier, it wouldn't have had that kind of resonance. But there are certain things that the hip-hop community kind of got very excited about, like the movie Scarface or about Sunsu in the Art of War. That's a big one too. Were you a big fan of that book? You've mentioned it. Art of War? Yeah, very impressive. Yeah. Could you say a bunch of stuff about a few things about that and in your thing? It's a great book. It's a great book. Yeah. Sorry, go ahead. I'll turn it off. No, so it's just, I think it resonated with them.

Sorry, go ahead. No, no, no. So it's just, I think it resonated with them. It came out at the right time. And I think it kind of gave them a road map for perhaps how to deal with this sort of shark invested environment. I'll go ahead. Well, the only other thing is, I think they appreciated the honesty of the book. You know, a lot of books that are about power, success, they kind of sugarcoded, they kind

of go, well, you know, be nice, be generous, I was giving you like a straight shot of whiskey. This is what it's really like. And I think that kind of, they appreciated that. That's why I appreciate that. That's why how many of those 48 laws, how many millions did that one sell? Just that book alone. That's my biggest seller. It gets sell, right?

It's well over two million now in the United States. In the United States. Okay, so obviously, me plus two million other people obviously liked it a lot, right? Because I think so many of those points, like you were saying, like, don't, you know, less is more, right? These are like, it's kind of the common sense sometimes isn't so common, right? Because if you talk too much, you blabber, you say the wrong thing or you misbeak.

And it's like a lot of it resonates with me and everyone else. Another good one I really like was about boldness versus being timid. Interaction with boldness. Yeah, because if you, if when you, what do you say when your audacity can be fixed with more audacity, but nobody ever, when you're timid, people don't really respect the timid or you said it much more eloquently than I just did.

But like these things are like, these are just all one liners or one pieces that you can really apply in everyday everyday life, right? Are you now like, how when you talk to people and like deal with, you're probably sussing out the situation all the time. How do you not, right? Like it's kind of like, you become like, you become like the expert, you know,

exponential guru of our time. Like, how do you not sit here and be like, oh God, this girl's a total dud or this girl's a dumb dumb or like an idiot? I try not to do that. I try not to judge people that way because. How do you not though? You know, it's human nature too.

My goal isn't to like put you in a category. My goal is to understand you. So like, you know, if there's somebody, this is not you at all, but if there's somebody who is somewhat insecure, etc. I don't want to sit there and go, God, what a drip, what a, my life is a drip. What, why are they like that? And then I'm, I'm probing and the writer in me is trying to see, what if I were them? What was their childhood like? What was going on behind it? What is the source of their wound, for instance?

And then maybe a picture comes into focus where I can understand them in a level, because that sense of understanding them is a much nicer and healthier and more productive feeling than, oh, they're bad, they're stupid, they're ugly, blah, blah, blah, because it's not accurate. They are who they are, just like an animal or a rock

or a plant has a nature. That's who they are, they evolve that way. They'd built defenses to protect themselves, just like anybody would in their circumstances. So it's a better thing to understand them. Not saying that some people are not dangerous or toxic. Believe me, that's all I write about in my books or toxic people. So you can't just be a lamb and embrace and hug everybody. You have to be aware. But even with the Donald Trumps, the

Joseph Stalin's, the people who are extremely toxic and dangerous. Your ability to understand them, as opposed to judging them, gives you power over them. So if you understand that Donald Trump was a deeply wounded child by his parents, he's actually a really, really insecure person. He's actually like a little crying baby. There's no need to feel intimidated. There's no reason to feel fear of him. Look how many people are

intimidated by him. Look about how many people fall under his spell and do his bidding because they're afraid of all his bluster and his anger. Well, what happened if in the meeting you looked at him and you go, what a weak little defenseless child that got kidd is. He adapted that way because he never got any love just like Richard Nixon. You know, maybe he feeling pity for him, but you're not going to be intimidated, you're not going to get sucked into his drama because you know that's the power that he has over you and you know that underneath it all is great layers of weakness. So your ability to not always judge people and react and get upset and defensive is power, transits into power. So when you understand why someone is toxic, you now have the ability to strategize against them, to take a step back, to do things

instead of reacting, instead of getting sucked into their drama. So I'm, I'm on turn into, I'm my goal, my way of looking at the world is it's all like a great novel. That some writer up there put me in on earth in some story and I'm observing people. It's all kind of interesting and exciting and I want to figure out who these characters are in my novel. You know? Who do you like when you read a book? Who do you like to read? Well, you know, I read a lot, obviously.

So I read hundreds of books to write one book. And right away I can tell if someone, the writer, is a narcissist. I hate narcissistic writers who are there to kind of show off, to vent their opinions, to sort of say, oh, to show their superiority, can't stand it, and so many writers are like that nowadays. So when I find a writer who is interested in the subject, who gets rid of their ego and gets you into the subject, takes you into that world.

If you're writing a biography, they take you inside the world of Coco Chanel or of Abraham Lincoln. I love it. I love that writer. I don't care if they're not the best writer in the world. If they can make me feel that world, I can feel that they're getting inside of it, then it's a great book. But so many people are like venting their opinions, their judgments, their whiny little bragging or whatever. I can't stand writing like that. And I find it in a lot of books right now. And when I read a book like that, if you ever come to my

house you'll see I'm like big, big exes and I'm saying, you know, F you on the margin. I don't hold back and you know it's judging them. Right. Exactly. Well then who would it tell some of the books that you're reading right now? Or some of the one of your favorite like top two favorite books? Oh, it's so difficult. I asked difficult questions. You do. You know, I was a great, my subject at university was classics, Greek and Latin. I especially was ancient Greek because I was fascinated with ancient

cultures and ancient Greece in particular. And one of the first books I had to read was through Cidid, through Cididid's, what we call through Cididid's, the Peloponnesian War, history of the Peloponnesian War. And it was the most difficult thing you could read. One paragraph would take me in Greek, would take me about a week to decipher.

Wow. And I got so excited because this writer has a magnificent style. And then later on, I could read a little bit more. And then I read it in English. It's a magnificent epic book. It's probably one of the greatest pieces of literature ever. Somebody who has the vision of a Machiavelli who can look clearly at the world as it is.

And yet he's relating something that happened, you know, 2500 years ago. What could be more exciting? And stylistically, he's, if you ever pay it, it's hard because the translations don't reveal it. But this is a man who had like the most insanely complicated, insanely disciplined organized style of writing. I loved it. And it's a kind of writing that I've always aspired to, which is kind of impersonal, where I'm not spouting poetry and trying to impress you. I'm actually trying to make very clear ideas and clear thoughts. So that had a big influence on me. And obviously, Machiavelli had a big influence on me, books like The Prince and The Discourses. He's like a kindred spirit for me. You know, our birthdays are around

the same date. I feel like there's a kind of animal rapport I have with him, his work. He's an earthy person. You know, he's really, he was a great seducer. He wrote one of the most wicked, scandalous comedies ever about the Catholic religion. He was just a great poet and writer. And yet he had the clearest mind when it came to analyzing power. And I'm a great admirer. If I couldn't meet those two men, I would love to. I mean, those are two books I could go on and on. Right. Any book's recent, any current book that, you know,

someone who's like, can go on Amazon right now. That basically that you would be like, you know, of our today's time, that you're like, you know, I like this book. If in the self-help space or the power space or the human. There are, it's just hard for me to remember. I know, you know what I should do? I should write these things down

because people ask me all the time and I never have a good answer for any of them. You never have an answer for any of them. I never have a good answer. I mean, never have an answer for it. I never have a good answer. I mean, there are books that are written now that I love. I'm not totally against people nowadays. And there's some great biographies out there. What biographies do you like?

Let's keep it easy. What's your favorite of current times in the last 10 years? Biography of a contemporary person or anybody in the past. Of anybody in the past that you like, that you can recommend right now. Well, the book, the one that I read for that book about Coco Chanel was a great, great book. You like that one? Very much so, that was a great book. The book that I read about Martin Luther King in there, which you'll find in my bibliography, it's the kind of standard,

large at longest biography of Martin Luther King, is really good. What I like in a biography is you make the person come to life. I can understand their humanity. I don't want the saintly version. I don't want the devil version. I want to feel what it was actually like to be the flesh and blood human being.

The person, right? And so those two books, there's a book about Abraham Lincoln, which I can't remember the title of, which I like a lot. God damn. No, that's good. You gave me a lot. That's perfect. That's a lot. I just read a biography that isn't going to resonate with people because it's about a romantic poet from the 19th century. But man, it was one of the best biographies I've ever read. Really? The biography of the poet, Colouridge, Samuel Taylor College, because I'm doing my next book. I the sublime. It's something I would talk about in this book a little bit. And it's like a thousand pages, two volumes. Boy, it was good. Really? So what do you have at title of your new book?

Is it called Sublime? It's called the Law of the Sublime. No, the Law of the Sublime. The Law? So is this law one like this one law 600 pages? Basically. This book should be more the three to 400 pages. Oh, okay.

So it's like a quick read. You know, basically a quick read. I was looking at like, audible the other day to read one of, I think the mastery, one of the books that I did not read. And it was like literally 29 hours. Like 29 hours. Which book? I don't, I think it was. Well, my book is 29 hours.

No, I'm sitting on all of your books. But I'm saying like I actually like, I manually read most of these books, but I wanted to, knowing that you're coming on, I wanted to be really, I wanted to kind of know about about all your work. And then it was like, when I went to try to download and listen, it was like 29 hour, you know, listen.

I'm like, there's not gonna be a time when I can listen for 29 hours on anything. So I'm not just just reading it myself. Thank you. It's just easier that way. Yeah, I have a hard time with that. B2, I don't know how people can like, they don't have that, how do you have that much time

to like passively listen? Because then you're not, it doesn't penetrate how people can like, they don't have that, how do you have that much time to like, passively listen? Because then you're not, it doesn't penetrate a lot of the times, right? And then you can't go back and, oh, they said that, what was that quote there? Exactly. Are you going to find that one little tiny quote? How you can, I know now they're going to make technology where you can be able to do that probably. But not, I mean, for me, I like to write in the book, like

take notes, like to reference in crossroads. I'm old school, though. I'm old school, too, though. I mean, we're just dating ourselves. But like, I mean, there's some great things you could do in Audible when it's in the easy, I mean, there's a lot of books I love in Audible, but certain things that you really want to pay attention to the detail and like, remember it and like, really kind of get it into your like DNA, you have to have a hard copy of it. I mean, it's good if you're traveling and you don't have to carry 20 books with you.

Right. That's about the only use I can see. Well, with your book, you need a whole new suitcase. I mean, literally, I need a whole, just like a book suitcase. Like this is heavy. I was just, I was just in Mexico for a book tour and the book is even thicker and Spanish.

Oh, good. I had to carry it around and I kind of hurt my back. Oh, I can imagine. I mean, I can not. It's like, it's heavy for me. So then when you wrote the 50th law with 50 cent, did he come to you and say, I would see obviously he was a huge fan of yours. And he says, let's collaborate together.

Or like, how did that even go? Well, it's not quite sexy is that. Basically, his literary agent, young man named Mark Gerald, approached me and said, 50 is a huge fan of the 48 laws of power. It's his Bible. He would like to meet you.

And I go, sure, I love to, why not? So I flew to New York and I met him in the back room of a steakhouse on Madison Avenue, and he was with his little, you know, posse, entourage, entourage people who works with, and I was just by myself. I was a little bit intimidated. I didn't know what he would be like. He has this image and everything.

I was a little concerned. And we hit it off really well. Sometimes people, you never know who you're going to connect with. You never know. Sometimes people that you think you're going to hate or if you're going to love it, there's no chemistry or energy between. I'm not somebody who's attracted to celebrities. I'm actually more interested in taxi drivers or Uber drivers.

People's daily lives, I don't really want to hang out with Taylor Swift, to be honest with you. You don's daily lives. I don't really wanna hang out with Taylor Swift, to be honest with you. You don't? No, I don't. I mean, I don't think against her. Maybe she's amazing. Maybe I'd go to the stick to one laws of power with her. Oh, maybe.

I doubt it. But 50 was very real. I just wrote my war book about strategy. And we were talking about strategies in his life and his career. And we just had a nice kind of energy, synergy together. And I think it was mutual. You could feel comfortable with me because he knew that I'm not like someone who's like in love with celebrity. I'm just, you know, a normal person. A normal person. He wasn't what, he wasn't what I

was expecting because he was much nicer and very sweet and actually a gentle person. And I wasn't what he was expecting. He was expecting some kind of shriveled Henry Kissinger type who's really maniacal and power hungry. So we were both kind of shocked and surprised. And then I came away from that going, you know, you couldn't imagine two more different people in the United States of America, where he grew up on the streets of South Side Queens and me, a middle class Jew from Los Angeles. You know, what could be more different?

And what could be more exciting than to bring our two brains together to create a book and to create something to bring our two ways of looking at the world? You know, that to me is the greatness of America that we have incredible commonalities. And instead of talking about all focusing on differences, let's talk about what makes my very different world, from your very different world, what are the similar things? Why we both became obsessed with strategy. Why we're both very interested in power, for instance. So I thought, he's an inspired, I spend my life with dead people, Napoleon, Louis XIV.

And here I have a chance to be with someone who's actually living and breathing and has blood throwing through their veins. Right. Why not write a book about with him, about our ideas about fear and sort of weaving in stories about his life and lessons from his life about what can happen to you if you have no fear and that's sort of what the book is about. I have a question. We're talking about laws of power. His agent called you because he wanted to meet you, but you flew to New York.

Why didn't he fly to L.A.? Well, I love New York. I lived in New York for many years. So any excuse to hop on jet blue. I like jet blue. And you know, and go stay at the Bowery Hotel back then, if it didn't exist. I don't know where I was staying back then. But, you know, I love New York.

Right. I like to do that. So, it's more happy to do it that. Then I know what? Come out to LA isn't his environment, it's not who he is. There's, you know, 50 cents in LA just doesn't feel the same. Right, right, right. So you, so then how did that book sell? It sold well, too, though, right?

It sold very well. Not my shortest book, but. It's a, right, right. So you so how did that book sell? It sold well too though, right? So very well. Very not. It's my shortest book but. It's a shortest book, right? But you didn't sell too many copies of that one, did you sell? Oh, you're getting to that. Yeah, I'm curious. It sold like 350,000 copies. That's still really good. I mean, that's amazing. Wow. So are you guys still really close friends? Did you hang out? Well well we don't hang out but we talked to each other every few months and he's he's considering maybe turning into 50th law into a television series So we've been discussing that that would be nice for you Yeah, isn't it funny how things come full circle used to you know in your what in one of your 80 jobs You were working in Hollywood, you know as something else

Right and now you might come back to Hollywood with something else. Like, it came like full circle. I know. Right now, what Quibi is. Of course, I know what Quibi is. Well, we're mainly- I can't say, of course, yes, I know what Quibi is. Okay, so we might be doing the 48 laws of power as a series for Quibi, where it looks

like they're giving a green light. That's amazing. But I can't say for sure, you know. Not so hard to word. That would be great. Well, we'll see. I'm surprised I have. Jeffrey Katzenberg signed off and whatever that means.

It means a lot. So that's why Jeff and Jeffrey Katzenberg is a whole story about him and Michael Eisner. I hope he's read it. Yeah. He comes out well. I have nothing against Jeffrey. No, I mean, he came out. He comes out well. I have nothing against shipping. No, you did. I mean, he came out perfect.

It was not it was all about Michael Eisner. It wasn't about him. Michael Eisner, like, you know, got jealous, basically, of him and kicked him out. And then he made a fortune because of it. Yeah. But he should be really, you should be giving this to him. Well, for sure, to the great. I will.

I will definitely do that. I'll underline the passengers. 100% you should. Well, I think that I mean, I've kept you for like, I think, how long has been like five hours already? Is it? Okay. But you haven't reached Joe Rogan territory yet.

I haven't yet, but I can't. Joe Rogan keeps you in there for three hours. I mean, how many bathroom breaks do you get in three hours? I don't remember. I can't remember because it was like five years ago, but I'm surprised you didn't go back on there for human nature. It's up to him. He's an interesting animal who's got his own tastes. Maybe the book was too long. He doesn't like to read a friend of mine, Ryan Holliday actually told me that the only book he has ever read is the 48 laws of power. Are you serious? Yeah.

I mean, he's a great guy. He's really smart. He's a incredibly funny comedian. Yeah. He's very talented with that. Very talented, great interviewer, but he's not a big reader, although he interviews writers, et cetera. Yeah, they had to see if Coles notes for all the writers that come on.

I don't know. I don't know. His secret. I hate to say it because maybe I'm wrong, but that's what Ryan told me. So he gave me the idea that he doesn't. Right. I was on his show for mastery. I don't know. Oh, I thought it was for 48 laws of power. It wasn't even for that for mastery.

Yeah. But you make the circuit. I see you everywhere. You're like doing everybody's podcast and media. Oh, yeah. It's like the Borscht Bell. I was gonna say like the Borscht Bell. People don't know what that is. I know what that is, but still. Well, can I have, I'll have to come to you. You can come to me, but I want to do a whole other one on the 48-hour or the end of the seduct. I mean, on every one of them. That's why I felt like, I felt kind of like- You can move into my house. I'm going to an extra bedroom. I'll be more

than happy to because the truth is, like, I did, to. Because the truth is, I got some anxiety because I'm like, I have so many things and I have notes scattered from this book and from that book and I'm like, how am I going to condense it all in like an hour? Because like I said, most people have one book and it's like an easy thing, whatever. You have like 11 of like masterpieces.

So only six, but I'll take that. Okay, 11 when you count how big they are. Okay, they're like doubles, okay? It's like a double thing. So yeah, and so thank you so much. I really love having you. Oh no, thank you very much. I really enjoyed it.

You organized all your scattered notes very well. Thank you. I appreciate that. Thank you. And I've good luck with the Quibi theme. How are we gonna, when is it gonna happen for sure? Or maybe when we, you know. I'm good luck with the Quibi thing. How is it going to happen for sure or maybe? Well, I just found out earlier this week, I've been dealing with trying to turn the 48 laws

in something for 13 years. I know how things in Hollywood are like, slip through your fingers like Quick Sand, Quick Silver. So I'm not, you know, I hardly say that it's for sure, but I think we'll know in the next couple weeks There's a a particular individual who's behind it who's kind of famous. Oh, that's a JZ. No, is it 50 cents? No is

Beyonce Is it Kanye West? No, okay? Who is it? Drake. Drake's behind it? Yeah, well it's his company that's trying to. I love Drake. First of all, I'm Canadian. So was he? Oh, you are. Yes, I'm from Toronto.

I'm from Toronto. Yes, so you can understand. You know, he's half-Jewish. Of course, I know he's half-Jewish. You've been in four, I know, believe me. I know everything about that. I met him and we had, he interviewed me for, I don't know, for what. And we were, I've always talked about with our bar mitzvahs. Really? Did you know that Drake was bar mitzvahs? Of course, I don't know, for what. And we were, I've always talked about what's our bar mitzvahs.

Really? Did you know that Drake was bar mitzvahs? Of course, I know. First of all, Drake grew up in Forrest Hill, which is an area where I know very well. He was on a show called the Grassy Jr. High. Yeah. So I knew Drake before Drake was,

I knew who he was before Drake became Drake. He's like a nice Jewish boy from Toronto. Yeah, but he's not, there's another side to him. I'm gonna say, when I say it, I'm gonna say, he's not really a nice Jewish boy from Toronto, but you know what I'm saying? Like he's behind this project. Well, yes, he started a film company and he works with anonymous content, the company. And his company and anonymous, they're the people behind it. I'm sure he's like, well, what's in here huge,

another one, he's a huge fan of the 48 laws of power because he really helped him as well. You know, he can testify to how ruthless and awful the music business is. And he comes to suffering from envy and bitter rivalries in the music business. He has a lot of stories. Oh, you know what, I'll tell you something. I was gonna say it earlier, I used rivalries in the music business. He has a lot of stories. Oh, you know what? I'll tell you something. I was going to say it earlier. I used to work in the

music business. So when I was in Canada, I used to be at BMG Music and I moved out to LA to work for a record label. I got a poach by a different record label and I was going to say that business is you're right. It makes Hollywood look like a kindergarten. Yeah. It's very, very cutthroat, but it's changed now. It is. It's not the same anymore. It's not the same. I really actually don't know because I, I mean, I don't have much contact with the business. I mean, Drake would tell stories. So I don't know in the last five or six years if things have really gotten smoother or softer. But actually, some things haven't changed. Where, how do you make money in the music business now?

It's very difficult. And so you're either on the cream of the crop, the top 20 artists, or you're really struggling at a huge middle zone that used to exist, doesn't exist anymore. So it's still pretty, it's a pretty doggy, dog environment. It is. And you know what's interesting, like, and most of the time, other people own you. They own the rights to you, they own the license to you. And even with all these shows that are, you know, it's entertainment, like what do you call

the voice and this one, that one. Very rarely do those, even with all that exposure, those people don't become stars very rarely. Like very, very rarely, does it happen? And if there are star six months later, we don't never heard of them. You've never heard of them. They may have one hit. Yeah. And that's it. Yeah. So how do you even become like it's a symbol, even with all those millions of people watching you, it's still not enough to penetrate the market? And even if you do penetrate it, it's still like, what do you, how do you build on that success? Yeah. And I keep it going. So you tell me you're this weren't one here. I don't know

I I have an interview the Sunday, you know who Rick Ross is of course I do he's interviewing me on Sunday for his show He has a pod. I love how you're doing. Oh, you think you know whole hip-hop community is like a night This like like he said middle class Jewish boy, you know, it's like you're coming from like one hip-hop artist to another That's hilarious. Well, he's had a very checkered, difficult life. Yeah. He also suffered a lot of health issues, et cetera. And he has a book that came out a few months ago that's on the bestseller list.

Which book? It's called Hurricanes. It's his autobiography. He's a really huge in that space,. He's a really, really big... He's a big producer though, too, isn't he? Yeah. Did you ever meet with Jay-Z? Because I know like... No. No, I wanted to. I mean, I know he's a big fan of the book. Yeah, how can we never met him? I don't know. I mean, we've wanted to. I've had... I've sent books to his manager. his manager is a huge fan and I connect contact with him.

And nothing. No, I once sat on a jet-boot flight from out New York to LA with with our name just slipped my mind. Not Taylor Swift obviously. No, no, no, no, no, no. Beyond C. Oh, Salon. Beyonce, sister. They hate each other, though, don't they? No, they know. Beyond Z. So long. Oh, so long. Beyond C's sister. They hate each other though, don't they? No, they have a big rivalry.

Did they? No, so long. Didn't so long, like beat him up in an elevator. Yeah, she doesn't do that with Jay-Z. I didn't know she didn't get along with Beyonce. No, no, no, no, I'm talking about her and Jay-Z. Yeah, I don't think they get along. Right.

That's the closest I've ever gotten. That's, how is that possible? If he's a big fan. I don't know All right, so I guess we'll wrap this up because it's been Almost now it's gonna get into like Joe Rogan time here like two hours later All right, so Robert first of all like as you can tell as I gush over you This has been amazing to have you on the podcast people couldn't Pick up the laws of human nature if you are strong enough.

It's pretty heavy. You can find it on Amazon or tell us where they can find you if they want to know more about the insights of you. Well, I have an old website that we've kept together. It's called Power Seduction and War.com. The end is spelled out. Power Seduction andwar.com. And there you'll find links to my other books,

the 50th Law Mastery, and the new book. It's a... New book being the laws of human nature. And you'll find links to all my podcasts. There are two numerous... Two, to name. And there's even a place where you can write me. You're nasty thoughts about my books or how awful I am.

And that's probably the best place. All my books are available on Amazon. You know, so if you can't find my books, it's not my fault. It's going to say it's probably not your fault. Well, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on. Oh, thank you so much for having made it my pleasure. It was a lot of fun.

Thank you. Excuases we in heaven that the habits and hustle podcasts power by happiness Hope you enjoyed this episode. I'm Heather Monahan host of creating confidence a part of the Yap Media Network the number one Business and self-improvement podcast network. Okay, so I want to tell you a little bit about my show We are all about elevating your confidence to its highest level ever and taking your business right there with you. Don't believe me? I'm going to go ahead and share some of the reviews of the show so you can believe my listeners. I have been a longtime fan of Heather's no matter what phase of life I find myself in, Heather seems to always have the perfect gems of wisdom that not only inspire, but motivate me into action. Her experience and personality are unmatched and I love her go getter attitude. This show has become a staple in my life. I recommend

it to anyone looking to elevate their confidence and reach that next level. Thank you! I recently got to hear Heather at a live podcast taping with her and Tracy Hayes and I immediately subscribe to this podcast. It has not disappointed and I cannot wait to listen Heather at a live podcast taping with her and Tracy Hayes, and I immediately subscribed to this podcast. It has not disappointed, and I cannot wait to listen to as many as I can as quick as I can. Thank you, Heather, for helping us build confidence and bring so much value to the space. If you are looking to up your confidence level, click creating confidence now. you